Childbirth in Medieval Times with Kate Lister

Summary

Gone Medieval Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: Childbirth in Medieval Times with Kate Lister
Host/Author: History Hit
Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the July 15, 2025 episode of Gone Medieval, hosted by Dr. Eleanor Janega, the focus shifts to the intricate and often harrowing realities of childbirth during the medieval period. Joined by the insightful Dr. Kate Lister, the hosts delve deep into the societal attitudes, medical practices, and the pivotal role of midwives in medieval Europe.

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Medieval Attitudes Towards Childbirth

Contrary to modern tendencies to shy away from discussing childbirth, medieval societies approached it with a matter-of-fact demeanor. Dr. Janega highlights this difference by stating, “Medieval people are getting on with it. They're a lot more matter of fact” (06:18).

• Openness: Childbirth was openly discussed, and the harsh realities were not sugar-coated. Women were more candid about the pain, dangers, and physical toll of childbirth.

• Community Involvement: Given the lack of privacy, births often occurred at home with the entire community, especially women, playing supportive roles.

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The Role and Training of Midwives

Midwives were the cornerstone of medieval childbirth, serving as both attendants during labor and general healthcare providers within their communities.

• Training and Apprenticeship: Midwives gained expertise through apprenticeships, learning practical skills such as stitching and managing complications. Dr. Janega notes, “you're probably going to train in a sort of apprenticed kind of manner” (10:00).

• Respect and Reputation: These women held significant respect in their communities, often forming the backbone of medieval healthcare. They were reliable sources of medical knowledge and support.

• Nuns as Midwives: Many midwives were nuns, benefiting from their extensive training and dedication to serving the community. Dr. Lister asks, “Is it true that some nuns were midwives or some midwives were nuns?” (08:44), to which Dr. Janega confirms, explaining that institutions like the Hotel Dieu in Paris were run by nuns who also served as midwives.

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Medical Practices and Procedures

Medieval childbirth practices combined practical knowledge with rudimentary medical techniques, often derived from classical sources.

• Preventative Measures: Oiling up to prevent tearing was a common practice. Dr. Lister asks if the birthing chair was effective, to which Dr. Janega responds positively, explaining how gravity assisted in labor (20:54–21:27).

• Handling Complications: Midwives managed breech births and other complications by manually adjusting the baby’s position, showcasing their hands-on approach to ensuring successful deliveries.

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Dangers and Mortality Rates

Childbirth in the medieval period was fraught with peril, with high mortality rates for both mothers and infants.

• High Risk: Dr. Janega mentions that there was “a 50, 50 chance at the time” of survival for both mother and child during difficult births (17:01).

• Cesarean Sections: These were rarely performed and typically only when the mother was already deceased, aimed at saving the baby’s soul through swift baptism. Dr. Janega explains, “a caesarean at the time... is something that you're gonna do when mom's dead” (26:24).

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Changing Medicalization of Childbirth

The professionalization of medicine during and after the Enlightenment period marked a significant shift in childbirth practices.

• Exclusion of Women: As universities began granting medical degrees, the field became more rigid and male-dominated. Dr. Janega notes, “kings will say, for example, you can't call yourself a physician unless you have a degree from a university” (37:43), leading to the marginalization of women midwives.

• Rise of Physicians: The increasing dominance of formally trained physicians reduced the reliance on midwives, transitioning childbirth from a community-centered event to a more medicalized and institutionalized process.

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Social Attitudes, Abortion, and Witchcraft

Medieval attitudes towards abortion were more pragmatic up to a certain point, but this began to change, leading to the persecution of midwives.

• Pragmatic Approach: Initially, midwives performed abortions to prevent infanticide in cases where families couldn’t support additional children. Dr. Janega explains, “they are like, we know things happen. You might have too many children” (29:00).

• Shift Towards Persecution: With the rise of stricter religious doctrines, especially during conflicts between Protestants and Catholics, midwives who performed abortions began to be persecuted as witches. Dr. Lister observes, “that is very specifically, okay. The group of midwives who are persecuted as the ones doing abortions for services” (28:34).

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Physical Impacts on Women

Multiple childbirths took a significant toll on women’s bodies, a reality often under-discussed both in medieval times and today.

• Bodily Damage: Women who had numerous children often suffered from vaginal tearing, fistulas, and internal injuries. Dr. Lister remarks, “there must have been, like, incontinent and tears and fistulas and all kinds of internal injuries” (36:04).

• Adaptation: Over time, women’s bodies adapted to frequent childbirths, resulting in fewer tears in subsequent pregnancies. Dr. Janega states, “your body does, to an extent, get used to it” (35:29).

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Conclusion: Legacy of Medieval Midwifery

Medieval midwives played a vital role in childbirth, combining practical skills with community support. Despite the high risks and societal changes that eventually marginalized their role, their legacy underscores the importance of midwifery in historical and modern contexts.

Dr. Janega concludes the discussion by reflecting on the evolution of childbirth practices, emphasizing the balance between medical intervention and traditional support systems. She underscores the enduring value of midwifery, advocating for respectful integration of these practices in contemporary settings.

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Notable Quotes

• Medieval Open Attitudes: “Medieval people are getting on with it. They're a lot more matter of fact.” (06:18)
• Role of Nuns: “nuns are some of the women who are trained pretty extensively in medical care.” (08:48)
• Birthing Chairs: “if you sit up and get on the chair, then that gravity is going to help draw the baby down along with the contractions.” (21:27)
• Medicalization Shift: “kings will say, for example, you can't call yourself a physician unless you have a degree from a university.” (37:43)
• Physical Toll: “there must have been, like, incontinent and tears and fistulas and all kinds of internal injuries.” (36:04)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Gone Medieval offers a compelling exploration of childbirth in medieval times, shedding light on the resilience of women and the foundational role of midwives. Dr. Eleanor Janega and Dr. Kate Lister provide a nuanced understanding of how childbirth was managed, the associated risks, and the societal structures that supported or hindered maternal and infant health.

For those intrigued by the depths of medieval history, particularly the lives of ordinary people, this episode serves as a profound reminder of the enduring challenges and triumphs surrounding childbirth.

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Transcript

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're just popping up here to tell you some insider info. If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, such as my new series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans, or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain. There's a new release to enjoy every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show Notes for This episode.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You brought it back. Ranch Snack Wrap Spicy Snack Wrap? You broke the Internet for a Snack Snack Wrap back?

[Maddy Pelling]

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[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennica and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. As a society, we don't really like to think about childbirth. There's good reasons for that. It's dangerous and painful, and we actually just want to focus on babies rather than what people have to go through in order to produce them. But the thing is, as dangerous and difficult as childbirth is, even now we have absolutely nothing on our medieval forebearers, and interestingly, they were a lot less shy about talking about the often grisly realities behind the childbed. Not only were average people a lot more familiar with what the process of giving birth looked like and meant, they were also a lot quicker to ask more whether or not someone was actually ready to put themselves through all of that. I was invited out of the Gone Medieval dungeon by my wonderful friend and colleague, the indomitable Dr. Kate Lister, to have a chat about medieval childbirth. On our sister podcast, Betwixt the Sheets, we managed to get through medieval attitudes to sex, death, and why considering saving your virginity for Jesus looked like A pretty good idea in the medieval period. But a word of warning, because we are talking about childbirth, it can get a little grizzly. And because it's me and Kate. Well, the language might be a little bit more adult than usual, so you might want to have a listen before deciding whether this is an episode that younger listeners might want to hear.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheeps. It's only Eleanor Yanaga. How are you doing?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Well, you know, anytime they let me out of the gone medieval dungeon, I'm delighted. So I'm doing great, babes. Great.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Welcome back to the Sunlight.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Thank you. Wow, you've got some here. What's that like?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's. Oh, it's very nice. Yeah. In the, in the bright. The bright world, we're not here to talk about such nonsense. We are here to talk about different nonsense. Medieval midwives, childbirth, all kinds of scary things.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, look, I mean, the vibes are kind of not great.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. If you say. If you sneak up behind the average woman in the street and just put medieval childbirth. Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Oh, 100, right? 100.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Doesn't have to be a medieval scholar or nothing.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

No.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

You know, we know, we know things like. Well, like even today, like my. One of my closest mates, Jen, recently had a baby. And like, I was so supportive, but even I had moments when she was talking about things like vaginal tearing and stitching and episiotomies and just. And that's today, 20, 25.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. You know, we have come a long way and I mean, yeah, we're going to talk about medieval childbirth, but I'm going to be so real with you babes. Like, if it's before the 20th century, I'm not interested.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

God, like, no, not interested. I'm not even interested now. You know, like, this is the thing. It's like all you got to do is like study historical childbirth and you're like, you know, I'm good.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yep. No, no, it's really. It's a one way system. That's all.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

That's it.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

But there are plenty of people listening who have had babies.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. And like, God bless you.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well done. Thank you.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. Thank you for your service. Braver than the troops, et cetera.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. Like, it is one of those things where if you consider how difficult and painful and frankly, dangerous it still is.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It still is. I'm still scary.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, very much so. You know, all you have to do really is ask, you know, like, what is your story from giving birth? And there's still, you know what I'VE.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Noticed every single ma I've had has had a baby when I've actually asked that question, what was the birth? Like they can't remember. It's like the body, like blocked out. It's like something. I don't know if there's some actual scientific research behind this or if just all of my friends went for the drug option, but like they don't remember. And I think maybe that is some kind of. I'm off script now, but I think that might be some kind of evolutionary thing. Because if you did actually remember what happened, if you actually. Yeah, well, I was in excruciating Agony for 52 hours, Kate. That's how. Well, you wouldn't do that again.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Sure. It's conspiracy of silence, in my opinion.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I think it is.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I think it's a conspiracy of silence. People don't talk about it because they don't want to put other people off. But, you know, that's the exact opposite of how medieval people are getting on with it. Because medieval birth is so much more matter of fact. Really? Yeah. Because fundamentally medieval people don't have privacy.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No, they don't. That's something I've learned from talking to you. That changed how I think about a lot of these people. The. The concept of privacy.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You're not going to be going anywhere to have your child. You're going to be having your child at home. Most likely.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Medieval maternity wards.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

No. And I mean, there are medieval hospitals, but the concept of medieval hospital is super different to how it is now, where it's like they're kind of like inns, they're run by, you know, monks and nuns.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

The Pope.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. I mean, fully. Fully. It's like, you know, there might be someone like giving birth, someone like, you know, dying of cancer. And then also you're like, oh, I just needed a place to stay. And then like some people. Yeah. Kind of having dinner downstairs. Fabulous.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Star already.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Right, okay, great. So, I mean, that's not what's going to be happening for you when you are having a child. You're going to be having this child in your own home. You are probably going to be attended by the women.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

You know, there has been research done and I can't think of the proper title of it that shows that home births, the more calm the surroundings that actually that hyper medicalized environment, although very safe and necessary, let's not put people off it. But actually being calmer in a home environment can reduce stress and shorten labor.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is if you can, like, chill out. Yeah, that's probably good.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Watch the telly.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And you know, so this is the thing is like, you know, probably your mom's gonna be there, maybe your mother in law, your sisters, and I mean, the midwife is gonna be there and that, that's gonna be who looks after it. And it doesn't matter who you are. Like, even if you are an incredibly wealthy queen and physicians don't really deal with this stuff, you. You basically have midwifery as a separate skill. Now, a physician might be called if something really wild goes down.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Like that scene in Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, exactly. But, you know, for the most part, it's just going to be women because this is very much considered a specialist occupation and it is one that is taken incredibly seriously. And now to, to be fair, midwives do more than just deliver babies, but that is really the one where it's always going to be them who is doing it. So that's kind of cool. There's like this specific medical field for women.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Is it true that some nuns were midwives or some midwives were nuns?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, absolutely, because the nuns are some of the women who are trained pretty extensively in medical care. So again, hospitals, it might just be like a nunnery's got beds. You know, very famously in Paris, the Hotel Dieu is run by nuns. And so, like, there are all these nuns who will kind of like look in on you there. And so if you've got some expertise, you're going to be given more expertise. And this is also something that nuns can go do. You know, nuns are supposed to be enclosed. They're just supposed to be hanging out in their nunnery away from the world and not participating in society. But if you're going to attend a birth, this is considered, like, worthy and fine. And, you know, Hildegard Bingen writes rather a lot about midwifery as well. So, you know, I mean, Hildegard Bingen writes a lot about. A lot. So that's probably not a surprise. She's just like the infinite monkey. She's just got like. She probably.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

She's just the kind of person, she would just deliver several babies in between composing symphonies and recording her visions and whatever the fuck else she was doing.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I know, God bless her.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, God bless that woman. I know what you're going to tell me now. This is because this is women's history. No fucker has bothered to write it down. Was there training for this? How would you get into being a midwife? It's quite specialist now, you can't just rock up and go, I am a midwife.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. I mean, the thing is, you're going to need a reputation, and you are probably going to train in a sort of apprenticed kind of manner. And. Yeah, you're right. We don't have a whole lot on this because it's like, ladies stuff. Thank you.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, gross.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You know, kind of a deal.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Call us when it's baptized.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, exactly. And so we do know, though, that these women form a backbone of their community. They show up in tax records. You know, we find these midwives who are working in different places around the shop, and they are, yes, delivering babies, but they're also doing generalized healthcare for the community.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

So this is going to be the woman that you go see when you got a cough. Right. The midwife is going to be called. You're not getting a physician, like, especially if, I don't know, you live in rural Scotland.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's like a wise woman type. Yeah, it is a wise woman.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like, yo. Like, if you are a trained physician, like, say you went to the school at Salerno, whereas there's, like, one. Like, you didn't go there so that you could be like, oh, I can't wait to practice rural medicine.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

In, like, Northumbria. No, that's not.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And those people wouldn't have been able to afford someone like that anyway.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Oh. So it's like, you go. You do that and then you go to court or you hang out in a city where there's a lot of rich merchants and that's who you attend to. So the great majority of medical help that is happening is by people like midwives. And also, frankly, you want a midwife so much more than you want as a physician, because. Yeah. Here's the thing about medieval medicine. It's not real.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No, it's mad.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Properly mental.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, like. And now this is like the proviso that I always say is not just medieval people. You know, they were getting it from the Romans and the Greeks and, like, it basically, it takes until the 19th century for any medicine to be like, work on it.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Even now, today, you have to remember that advice changes all the time. All the time.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Absolutely. You know, like, all you got to do is, like, think about diets. Like, how many times have we gone back and forth on whether or not you should be eating eggs?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You know, like, and these things are constantly going on. Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I was watching a sitcom from the 70s over the weekend, the Good life. And it was interesting to. At the top. Top tier.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Top, yes.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

But it was interesting just to watch. That was in 1975. And it's so weird watching of how much things have changed. So there was an episode where Tom does his backing and the advice is to lie completely immobile on the floor. And that's exact opposite now.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. They're like, move around. Yeah, yeah. I mean, exactly. So that is also kind of like the difference between, if you've got medicine, like physicians are learning at universities, that is going to be a lot more rigid because it's going to be a lot more. Oh, well, let us go back and see what Hippocrates wrote about this. Like, let us go back to the ancients, because there's this great reverence for classical medicine and an idea that that must be better. Whereas if you're going to a midwife in your village, she's gonna be like, this works real good.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You know, I know, I know that if you boil up willow bark and you drink it, it's going to help your headache. You know, I know that L Campane seems to help to treat lung afflictions. You know, you see work.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And, yeah, you'll be taught this by whoever it is you're apprenticing with and whoever it is you're working alongside. But these are also things that you might be tinkering with around the joint. And, you know, you as a midwife are going to need to know how to do things like stitch things up. And so that is going to be. I know that's in great, you know, demand, you know, being able to do stitches is being able to do stitches. That's great. See, these women are really kind of like the front line of what healthcare is in the medieval period. And every day of the week, I would rather have one of them than, like, some court physician who's going to be like, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Without. I just think it would have been the kind of thing that, like, was passed down. Families, like, you do it because your mother did it and you could. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And that's super, super common. It's really common for there to be just, like, a family of people who do this. So.

[Maddy Pelling]

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[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

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[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

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[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

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[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

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[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

So I'm trying to think like actually of the birthing experience.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

It sucked.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It sucked. I mean, Blake, all the people listening to this that have had babies and if you ask your friends who've had babies and all this stuff have, just talk to them about their birth, if they remember it and all the things that happened that if it wasn't for modern medicine would have been. Fucking nightmare. My mate Sam split from fucking keel to stern.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Oh, God. Yeah. Like, I'm one of four because my parents are idiots. I love you, mom and dad.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Thank you.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

But like all of us either tried to kill our mother or almost, almost died. Like all of us. And if it was the medieval period.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

She would have just been gone.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, my sister was breach. My mother's blood wouldn't clot with me. My older younger brother, umbilical cord around the neck. My youngest brother, 11 pounds, 3 ounces.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Holy moly.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Which is, you know, we're a big family.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

So, yeah, like all of this. So, you know, if you just kind of consider how difficult and dangerous it is now, it's even more at the time. Right. But the thing is, they were super matter of fact about it.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Because I think One of the big differences between, like, today and then is everyone goes, oh, sweetie, it's fine. Actually, it's the most natural thing in the world. Well, that's so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, it's like, that doesn't make it beautiful, honey. Right. And I think that now we really tend to downplay the dangers of childbirth because, you know. Yeah. We're trying not to freak women out, but, like, I don't know, you could use a little bit of being freaked out. Right. Like, there's. There is. You know, don't freak people out. And there's like, also. Let's be reasonable.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Let's surprise them.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. Like, this is. I think that a lot of people are kind of surprised when they get there. And it's, like, dangerous and horrifying and you almost die.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You know, and so medieval people are like, yeah, no, it's bad. Right, okay. So there's this particular medieval document that I love that is called a Letter on Virginity or the Holly Medved, or, like, don't get mad at me. My middle English is rubbish. Okay. And it is a specific work that is like, girl, do not get married. Like, dedicate your life to Christ. And it's talking very specifically about, like, all of the shock and horror of what goes along with being a wife and mother. And they're like, you think you want to bang, and you do, but you're going to get knocked up, and then you're going to have to give birth. And it goes into detail being like, pregnancy sucks. It sucks in his ass. And you're going to want to puke the whole time, and you're still going to have to be plowing the field, and your useless husband is still going to be like, where's dinner? And you're still going to have, like, do all of these things, even though you feel awful. And then you're going to give birth and it's going to be awful. It's even if you survive, which is a pretty big if. I mean, we're talking about kind of like a 50, 50 chance at the time, you know, even if you survive that they're like. And then you're left with a kid, and then you got to look after it, and then, you know it's going to disappoint you someday by, like, being a weird little slut. You know, it's gonna grow up to be just like you.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So just don't do it.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Don't do it. Right. And so this is, like, a specific thing where it just goes on and on and on, it's like, do you understand what it's like when your water breaks? Like, do you understand what it's like.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

When, like, you're a woman who'd had a baby?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. I mean, well, either that or who had been around it enough and she's like, like, do you get that, like, you are going to soil yourself in front of everyone while you're giving birth? Do you get that? Do you understand that it's going to, like, tear you apart? Do you. Is that something that you understand? It's not just a cute little baby at the end? This is a really visceral process. And they were a lot more upfront about that. And now, granted, this is 100% attract. That is, like, antinatalist. They're like, don't. Don't have children. And, you know, a lot of religious works are like, you shouldn't be doing that. Like, you know, the ideal medieval Christian is a virgin. Right. I think it's St. Jerome says that, like, he praises the office of marriage because it gives him virgins, where it's like, well, you people messed up, but, like, more virgins might be born. And then. I know he's the worst.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

He's just such a tool.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I know. Well, you know, he's like, his kink is beating himself with rocks instead of beating off. And, you know, I'm not gonna kink shame.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, I am. He's a tool. But the thing is, I want to be careful that we don't, like, completely stigmatize childbirth in the Middle Ages, because quite obviously they managed it. We're all the walking, living, breathing proof that some people, at least, and quite a lot of people successfully gave birth. What was their process like? I mean, would you have had a medieval birthing plan? Would you have had, like, a medieval birthing pool or one of those balls to bounce on?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I mean, usually one of the big things that you have is a chair.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, a chair.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. So, like, a chair is like a birthing chair is a really big thing.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Is that good or bad? Like, is that, like a mad thing that they had that they thought was good?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I think it's actually pretty good because, like, one of the things that we are kind of learning now, for example, is that, like, the laying down thing isn't necessarily great because their idea was like, yo, you want to use gravity, gravity in your favor. So it's kind of like, so if you sit up, if you can, like, get on this chair, and, you know, you're not always going to want to get on the chair because you're going to be in like great pain. But if you can sit up and get on the chair, then that gravity is going to help draw the baby down along with the contractions.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

We need midwives and gynecologists to email into the show just to let us know if that. If the. A chair was a bad idea or.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

A good idea and. Yeah, and they.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Gravity. That sounds sensible to me.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Birthing pool, not so much. Just because I mean like granted you could fill up the tub with water but like it's probably gonna cool down and then you're gonna have to keep replacing it and it's eventually gonna, it's gonna get. Yeah. And when you're carrying water the whole time. Yeah, water's really annoying now you might end up just giving birth in bed. That's super common as well. You know, that's a big place to do it because you're so uncomfortable. No, I will not stand up. Thank you. No, not going to happen. But as a general rule you're going to be giving birth in your own home and like someone's going to go get the midwife. That's what's going to happen. Like you know, your mother in law or your sister or whoever is going to look after you and then someone's going to go run get the midwife and then she's going to come in and take over. And what that means can be, you know, anything. You know, you can have a relatively straightforward birth and she is just going to be like, yeah, great job girl. Like rub your back, you know, kind of a deal. There are other things that can happen. So for example, we know that in order to avoid vaginal tearing, for example, they will oil you up. That's a big thing that kind of happens is the hope that this is going to prevent tears from happening. They will be keeping an eye on the baby in case it is breach or something like that. And they'll get in there and just try to manipulate it, move it around if it's gone into the wrong position. So that's something that they are super clear on. But for the most part this is kind of an at home deal where we're just going to see, see what we see.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Once we get there. Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Did they do that lying in thing or was that a rich person deal? Like when, you know, when you shut themselves away in like a little room with no windows or light and lots of incense.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Peasants. Girls ain't got no room.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No. There's no time.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

No. They've just Got the peasant girls live in one room, which, like, sometimes in the winter, there's a cow at one end. Right. You know, like, granted, they're in, like, little stall thing. It's not like in the same room, you know, but everybody lives in one big room for the most part. So. No, I mean, like, you'll probably lay down for a couple of days just because of, you know, the trauma. But they're not. It's not going to be that whole, like, lying in. We cover up all the windows. Here's some incense. Da, da, da. That's for queens, you know, that's for ladies. It's not for your average individual who is just going to have to be in their house in the best way that they can be. Frankly.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Confinement. That was the word I was looking for.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

That sounds fucking awful, by the way.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. Oh, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, I don't think. You know, and this is the thing that confinement is a really interesting one, because that lasts for ages as an idea. Yeah. I mean, it's. Jesus, it's. It's such a difficult thing in medical history because, like, basically absolutely nothing worked until we figured out germs exist, but they were still doing all this weird stuff anyway. And you're like, yeah, it's not till the 19th century that any of this gets better, Right?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Just lie there in a bed for like. Like a month, maybe more, waiting for this thing to kick off.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And they're like, please don't get postpartum depression. Have fun.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Why would nuns make good midwives?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Well, nuns make good midwives because in the first place, they are dedicated to serving their communities. They are the sort of people who can sit around and read the text in order to learn about these things. And also in cases of extremists, where you have a baby who has been born, but it's not looking good, and they very well may die, which is incredibly common. You know, let us keep in mind that until we invent vaccines, 50% of all children are going to die before they are the age of two. And it's incredibly common with newborns for them to die. And so you would be happy to have a nun, because a nun, in this case is authorized to perform baptism.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, that's handy.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So wait, no, that sounds like a bigger deal than I thought that was then. Because only priests were allowed to do.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, ordinarily. Yeah. And you have some cases where when stuff gets really bad. So, like, for example, during the Black Death, they'll be like, if you can't get a priest, just get a Christian, and they can do these things. And then if you can't find a Christian man, I guess a woman could do it. Like, if someone is dying, you can hear someone glass confession. You know, like, you can go find a woman. But here is a case where they're like, well, yeah, it's more likely that you're gonna have a nun around than it is to, like, go fetch a priest. And then if you've got to go fetch a priest, and then you're also wasting time. And everybody agrees it's really important to get the baby baptized so that they don't end up in purgatory. So, you know, that is something that it's a rare example of, where women get to have a little bit more spiritual power, specifically in the birthing room.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So are the nuns trained in, I guess not just push and breathe, but surgery as well. Like Caesareans.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

As Caesareans, this is the big thing, right? And so let's keep in mind that a caesarean at the time, you know, like, again, up until essentially, like. Like the 20th century, you do cesareans when it's like, she ain't gonna make it, right? Like. Like it's over for wifey. Like, she is probably already. She's gonna be dead. Like, she's dead. And you're like, okay, we've gotta get to this baby. And odds are, baby's also going to die. Okay, that's what the odds are. But what you want to do is make sure it gets baptized. So you get in there to get the baby to make sure that it is baptized so that it goes to heaven. So that is when someone would perform a cesarean section. And again, this is something that's really handy to have a nun who is trained up here because she can cut you open and she can also do the baptism really quickly. And because odds are, the baby, if it's got to this incredibly difficult situation, odds are the baby is going to die as well. But we're still thinking about the pastoral needs of the baby. And this is as much a form of. Of healthcare as is seeing to the corporeal needs of either the mother or child.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Cause it was almost certain death, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. You wouldn't do that unless you knew it was absolute curtains. And even then, you'd probably still be holding out, hoping it would be okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, I mean, like, fundamentally, this doesn't happen unless mom's dead. And we're worried because the baby's too far in and there's like no amount of gravity that's gonna get them out.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's grim, isn't it?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

It's grim. Don't you love having me on?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So would this have been primarily a woman only space, then?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I mean, for the most part, this is one of these circumstances where we just see a lot of chicks rocking, you know, like, you are probably gonna have, like, your husband toddle along once or twice in certain occasions, but for the most part, they're like, get out of here. Go take the other kids and go to your dad's house, or something like that. Right. Like, go make yourself useful. And so that is something that certainly would exist now, probably especially for poorer families. There's gonna be a little bit less of that. But this is. Is a kind of time and place where women are hanging out around other women. And, like, that is who the crowd is.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

From what you're saying, it sounds like midwives are. Well, they're quite important people. So I'm assuming that they were very widely respected and given a lot of kudos in the community and not accused of being witches at any point.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Now, I want to be clear that medieval people really don't do that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, yes, sir.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I forgot how. Early modern problem. Anti. Early modern action.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Sorry. So, yeah, but this is slipping there into that myth.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And this is a really important one, though, because we do see when we hit the early modern period, we do see that more midwives end up getting persecuted as witches. But there's a very specific thing here. Right? Okay. Whereas it's not just any midwife. Like, midwives exist the entire time. Like, across the early modern period, midwives.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Are still around periodically executing all the midwives.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. You know, who you periodically execute.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Cute.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

The midwives who do abortions. Because medieval people are a lot more chill on the whole abortion front. Medieval people are like, well, so true, bestie. Like you do we have to have abortions from now and then? And medieval church. Way chiller about abortions than you would think. They're basically like, yo, it's a freebie up to three months.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. They had this idea about the quickening.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. And they're like, don't get me wrong. They're not like, yes, I love abortions.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

That's.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

That's my favorite thing, you know? But they are like, like, look, fundamentally, we know things happen. You might have too many children. And what they see as probable in circumstances where people cannot feed their children, which is a real concern at the time, is infanticide. And they see that as a probable outcome because it is probable because infanticide is incredibly high when you can't access, you know, abortion services. And so a lot of midwives are like, also, this is the thing that I do, and that is usually of intervention. That is like a. For example, drinking penny royalty.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. Am I right in thinking that, like, the quickening around about three months, that was when they thought that the soul.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

The soul enters.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Enters. Up until that point, it's like, it's. It's not a Christian. There's no soul. Whatever you do doesn't count. But after that, then things.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Then things get. And it's like, from there, like, it kind of like goes up and up and up. I mean, like, not that women are really usually attempting to, like, like, abort pregnancies after six months, but it's like, it would get worse and worse and worse, right?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

In terms of what penance is. But penance is usually, like, surprisingly light for the first three months. And they're just like, yeah, please don't kill babies. That would be cool. Like, you know, just get an abortion. It'll be fine. That changes after we invent Protestants. Because Protestants and Catholics are like, I'm the holy one. No, you're not holy. I'm holy. No. And then they're like, you.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

You.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You would do abortions. No, I wouldn't. You would. No. I bet you that sounds like something you would do. And then they're like. So it turns into like the spiritual arms race.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Or a slap fight, you know, kind of thing. So then everyone goes, no abortions. That is.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It ruined it.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, exactly. And so then you go after the midwives who are doing abortions, and that is very specifically, okay. The group of midwives who are persecuted as the ones doing abortions for services.

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

Have we got any texts left to us by any. Were midwives able to write? Was there any man that wanted to write for a midwife? Do we have any textual evidence, any medieval version of call a midwife?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

I mean, the number one, it's gonna be your girl Trata of Salerno and the trotula, right? And now, granted, we think that she very well may have been an actual physician, she very well may have been educated at Salerno, but she writes this OBGYN treaties, which tells you very expressly how they're like, well, this is what you do about a breeched baby. This is what you do about tearing. This is how you care for mothers afterwards. And it goes really step by step about what it is you're supposed to do. And this is, you know, the equivalent of a medieval bestseller. This survives to us in absolutely tons of copies. I mean, after the original text gets written that tells you all these important ob GYN things, then later on they're like, and here's how you curl your hair. And people like, add to it. And they're like, yeah, this is. The eminent midwife. Was also like, here's how you make lipstick. Like, yeah, sure, bro. Yeah. Different people. But it kind of travels together as like, here is the one stop shop for ladies and things that you'll need to do. So it's interesting because there is also, with this, we kind of see there's kind of an understanding that, like, women are gonna need to know a little bit about what's due generally, because you're gonna be at somebody's birth at some point in time helping out. And you can't lay it all at the feet of the midwife life.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Do we have anything in the records about women, what happens to them, their bodies, after they. Because sometimes you read some records of how many births somebody's had. It's not super duper common, but, like, I've come across women wasn't medieval as 18th century and she'd had 34.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. I mean, you get into some clown car situations and you just think, like.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

What did that do? Like, even if. Even if she didn't require stitches, like, but how could you not require, like, what that must have done to her body?

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, I mean, we certainly. It's not uncommon to see women who have had, like, you know, 13 kids, 16 kids, you know, like, this sort of thing like that is very, very common. And I mean, I think that the thing that sort of happens there is that your body does, to an extent, get used to it, where it's like, oh, we're doing this again. Right. You're gonna have less tearing, you know, and if you are the sort of person who has been, like, really maimed by the situation, you might not be the sort of person who gets pregnant.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

You know, you might be like, yeah, that's cool that Jesus says we need to do that. Absolutely not. We are not ejaculating inside of anything. Right. Like, so you. There are ways of doing. Getting around that. Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I often think, like, because this. This is not a history that's. That's written down because. And it's still something that people struggle to talk about today, actually, I don't think it's spoken about nearly enough is the vaginal damage and the internal damage that can be done. I mean, there must have been, like, incontinent and tears and fistulas and all kinds of internal injuries.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one of the things that we have really good records on from the medieval period that they do a lot of surgery on is very specifically fistulas.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

So like fistula and ano. The one where you kind of like get a fistula through to your anus, which is super common as a result of problematic pregnancies. That's one of the first things where everyone is like, we need to sit down and write up how you deal with this. So there are surgical practices very specific specifically to address that. But, yeah, absolutely. And it is, though, as you say, the sort of thing that you just don't talk about. Right. Like, it's a. Well, in the first place, it's happening to women. So is it happening? I don't. I didn't hear anything, you know. Right. So you wouldn't talk about that. In the second place, you know, it's kind of like private stuff, so you're not necessarily going to talk about it. And then in the third place, it's so common that it doesn't even necessarily require talking about. Right. You know, now for us in the global north, that would be a lot more of an anomaly and something that you would talk about. But, you know, it's still something that real problem for women in the global south, for example. So, like, access to really good health care around birth is still incredibly limited by where you live.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So there's a final question then. When did things start to shift that birth became increasingly medicalized? And I don't want to be, you know, a crusty person being like, yeah, we should all be at home on a lily pad and being worshipped. I think that. I think that actually medical interventions is a good thing. But also there is an argument to say that we do overly medicalize this. And now the idea that you just go into hospital to have a baby, that's the done thing. But when did it stop being like Betty up the road that you just go and get.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

It's an enlightenment issue. So, you know, with the Enlightenment, everyone is like, we're doing science now, guys. It's science time.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Stand back, ladies.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

It was not science, you know, like for like until the 19th century. It's like you're still just doing like, you know, humoral theory with more steps. But one of these things that we begin to see, especially at the end of the Middle ages, is an increasing professionalization of physicians in particular. So whereas before you could be like, I spent a couple of weeks at Salerno and I'm a physician now, or whatever, that begins to get tightened up. And so kings will say, for example, you can't call yourself a physician unless you have a degree from a university fair. So that means that women increasingly do not have access.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Unfair.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah. Now it still happens, you know, we'll still see like women, for example, we've got women on record in Paris, for example, who are basically suing to say, like, look, I'm trained, let me in, I should be able to say that I'm a physician. That kind of thing.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Something you wrote about in your book.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yes, my book, the once in future sex. We true this in my chat chapter on, you know, women's roles in society. So, you know, like what it means to be a wife and mother, you know, so. Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

But they were trained.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Oh, yeah, absolutely trained. And we know this and when we've got their names right. But this becomes increasingly untenable as you hit the Enlightenment, where, you know, the universities really become much larger and then suddenly universities begin giving medical degrees. So, right, like you and I, as the correct kind of doctor. Doctor, the original kind of doctor, like, you know, like a doctor originally met someone who had a Ph.D. and physicians were physicians.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And then you kind of start seeing later, especially kind of like 18th century, 19th century physicians are now suddenly called doctor, whereas they were not previously.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

And so when all of this comes in, that's when we see women increasingly excluded. And then like, especially in kind of like the 19th century, 20th century, then it's going to be like more doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors. So particularly in the kind of post war period in the global North. It's much more going to be like you go to hospital, you see a doctor, there isn't really going to be a midwife so much. And that can vary from place to place. So that's certainly more true, for example, in the States than it is here. And you know, Call the Midwife is a great program for a reason, you.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Know, and it's a great book, actually. I read the book of that before it came out and it was fascinating.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Yeah, brilliant stuff. So, you know, midwives certainly always existed along those lines. But you know, we just kind of have changed our ways of thinking about what birth is and you know who is an expert.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Ellen, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. It's been absolutely horrifying.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Oh, well, you know, I aim to horrify. Thanks so much to Kate Lister once again for having me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from history hit. If you're interested in the world of medieval childbirth, why not check out our past episode on medieval medicine. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film the Medieval Apocalypse, released weekly and ad free podcasts by signing [e-mail] subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts. And tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time, Packages by Expedia. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights, hotels and hammocks for less. Expedia made to travel. Hey Tinsley, why don't we use Ezcator to order food for staff lunches?

[Maddy Pelling]

Because my 46 page acronym system is so easy. I just have to salad, stay alert to late arriving delivery, pie, put in expenses and gugapie. Go out and get everyone's preferences and allergy information.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

That's supposed to be simple.

[Maddy Pelling]

No, simple is Stephen, Irma and Margie prefer lasagna and empanadas.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Omg. No need to make work life more complicated.

[Maddy Pelling]

Just use EasyCater, the easy way to.

[Dr. Eleanor Janega]

Get food for work.