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Defending a Castle
00:39:29
Matt Lewis speaks to Prof. Jackson Armstrong about Carlisle castle and the significance of its location on the border between England and Scotland.
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- [00:01]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
- [00:03]
Dr. Eleanor Yonega
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonega and we're.
- [00:05]
Matt Lewis
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
- [00:08]
Dr. Eleanor Yonega
If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early.
- [00:12]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit.
- [00:15]
Matt Lewis
With the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original.
- [00:20]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Documentaries such as my new series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans, or my.
- [00:25]
Matt Lewis
Recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
- [00:29]
Dr. Eleanor Yonega
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
- [00:32]
Matt Lewis
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the Show Notes for this episode. Thanks for listening to Gone Medieval. You can get all History Hit podcasts ad free, early access and bonus episodes. Head over to History Hit or you can sign up on Apple podcasts with just one click.
- [01:06]
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- [02:08]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, the and latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots and murders to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here. Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval. Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis. We're currently deep into our special look at castles. If you haven't caught the previous episodes, they're waiting for you right now. But in this episode we're going to go back to basics and think about castles in the role they were Designed explicitly for as fortresses to protect those within from their enemies. Our focus will be Carlisle Castle, which sits in the far northwest of England, not too far from the border with Scotland. To talk about this frontier castle and find out how it can shed light on the role of castles at war, I'm delighted to be joined by Professor Jackson Armstrong of the University of Aberdeen, who is the author of a book entitled England's Northern Frontier.
- [03:42]
Kate Lister
Welcome to God, Medieval Jackson, thank you very much.
- [03:44]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
It's a pleasure to join you.
- [03:46]
Kate Lister
So we're going to explore Carlisle Castle. Full disclaimer. It's a castle I've never been to, so I'm going to have to add it to my list of castles I need to go and visit. It's not one I know well at all, so I'm looking forward to finding out more about it. How significant would you say Carlisle Castle was at its height and maybe when was that height?
- [04:03]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
It is a site that had tremendous significance because of its location in an area that was over many centuries at the edge of kingdom of England, kingdom of Scotland, and in fact one of the key sites in the early medieval period within a preceding kingdom, the kingdom of Strathclyde or Cumbria. So it has a location of significance, which means that over time there's plenty of attention which is put on control of that site and I should say also the surrounding city. One of the fascinating things about Carlisle Castle is its integration with the city that adjoins it.
- [04:43]
Kate Lister
So roughly when does the castle that we see on that spot today, when does that castle begin to emerge and do we have a sense of who builds it? Who's responsible for Carlisle Castle?
- [04:52]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
For sure, it's a very ancient site. There's a Roman settlement which underlies what then became the early medieval settlement and was one of the significant sites within the kingdom of Strathclyde, Cumbria, which predates what we think of as the kingdom of Scotland or Kingdom of England and actually stretches across that western region. And it was in the reign of William Rufus that the first effort to construct what we think of as a castle site or wooden castle site really begins. So this is in the period following the Norman Conquest, decades following as that new regime is establishing itself and reaching further north into the island of Great Britain and into the 1100s. That wooden castle becomes something which is upgraded to stone building works beginning in the reign of English King Henry I. But one of the elements of Carlisle which brings in this cross border fascination is that tremendous amount of the building work to produce the stone medieval castle which we Think of as surviving today. It was actually built by Scottish King David I. He had, through his ancestry, but also through marriage, claim to be ruler of that kingdom of Strathclyde previously, which had been a client kingdom closely associated with the Scottish royal house, eventually merged and through marriage, also acquired claim to the Earldom of Northumbria. So significant presence in terms of a Scottish ruler who ruled from the city of Carlisle, part of what we now think of as England. For much of David's reign, that was the base which he favored. He died there in 1150. He had his own royal mint, so the building works that he undertook through the period of his reign up to the mid 12th century, tremendous amount of effort there by a Scottish king to build what we think of as an English castle.
- [06:46]
Kate Lister
Now, I find David quite amusing through this period because it fits in kind of with the anarchy in England. And he is the uncle to Empress Matilda, but he's also the empress to Stephen's wife, Queen Matilda of Boulogne. So he just steps into northern England and thinks, I'll look after this place on behalf of my niece, whichever niche you think that might be. But what he's basically doing is just subsuming part of northern England in the chaos that is going on in England, and then basing himself there and reigning there, but trying to do it like, you know, I'm just being a good uncle here.
- [07:13]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Yep. And that's something that isn't sustained after David's reign. But by the 1170s, William the Lion actively, again taking advantage of turbulence in the reign of Henry ii, then presses one of the first major military engagements at Carlisle, which is the siege and the warfare of 1173 to 1174. And that wasn't to be successful. A tremendous amount of damage done at that time. But the castle didn't fall on that occasion to the besieging force in the 1170s.
- [07:45]
Kate Lister
Just to pick up on a point about the sieges, we're going to come back to a couple of the sieges in particular. But I wondered whether Carlisle's location so close to that Scots border, meant that it was a castle that could make a really good case for decent amounts of money to maintain it. Did the Crown have a vested interest in making sure that this castle remained defensible and strong enough to protect that border?
- [08:07]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
One of the things that you see really clearly at Carlisle is all the elements of power and authority that we think of in the Middle Ages all closely woven together. So not only is there a city with its own government, now we think of this as a city, we're talking a few thousand inhabitants in normal times. So this isn't a sprawling metropolis as much as it might be a thriving one, but it is also with a bishop and a cathedral and cathedral priory based within this city space. It is something with tremendous royal presence, principally through the side of the castle itself, with the seat of the sheriff of the surrounding county of Cumberland. And in terms of the physical layout of the castle itself, that's something typically the sheriff associated with the outer gate house. But then into the later Middle Ages with the establishment of a new type of officer known as the Warden of the March, who was the crown appointed officer responsible for administering border law, but also defensive measures and protection of the border region. Also had a base of operations within the castle itself. And one of the tower sites within the castle was dedicated to the warden's office. There's a further gatehouse within the inner ward, which was that of the constable of the castle. All of those figures are crowned appointees and even if the king isn't there, and often the king was not there, but we'll come to some examples where kings certainly were. The authority of the crown was brought through and in those offices, in those spaces and tremendously close together. To walk from the castle to the southern gate of the city of Carlisle, it's about half a mile and if you imagine the city itself in the shape of a lozenge, you know, half a mile long and maybe a quarter mile. Nope, certainly not reaching half a mile from east to west with the castle sitting at the top of it and nestled between two rivers as well. The Eden, which of course runs up deep into the Cumberland, but the Caldew as well. On the. On the western side. Quite a condensed space, but a space that brings together all these different elements of what we think of as medieval authority. Town, city, church, royal power and all.
- [10:25]
Kate Lister
Together scope for lots of tension as.
- [10:27]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Well there, I would think.
- [10:28]
Kate Lister
All of those offices crammed into a small space, all vying for superiority maybe.
- [10:32]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Yeah, potentially there could be tension, but often in the later medieval period, there were a number of occasions where the Bishop of Carlisle was appointed by the Crown to serve as the Warden of the March. This occurred in the 14th century, but also in the 15th century. Marmaduke Lumley in the 1420s, 1430s, a good example of a Bishop of Carlisle who's actually playing a dual role as crown appointed Warden of the March.
- [10:55]
Kate Lister
And Marmaduke is a fantastic name as.
- [10:57]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Well, Isn't it great?
- [10:59]
Kate Lister
There is a story connected to Carlisle and to the castle known as the Ballad of Adam Bell. I wonder whether you could tell us what is the ballad, when does it date from, and what does it say about the city and the castle?
- [11:13]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
This is an example of an outlaw ballad, and there are many of these which survive from the late medieval period. But we think of tales and rhymes of Robin Hood. This is exactly the same genre of writing and work, and it is one which is set in Carlisle and the adjacent Royal forest of Inglewood. And it is one which is probably produced in the early or set down at least in early 15th century. And what it tells us is the story of three outlaws, Adam Bell, Clem of the Clough, and Will Cloudsley. Brilliant set of names who are based outside of the city in the greenwood. And they are outlawed. And they nevertheless devise that Will Cloudsley, who has his wife and family in the city of Carlisle, that he needs to pay them a visit. And he does this. He goes into the city, he's betrayed, and his presence is made known to the authorities, who then make an armed assault on his house. His wife Alice, in the ballad, she is defending her husband with a pole ax in her hand. Nevertheless, he fails to escape. He's captured and brought to justice to be executed. And at the moment of his execution, his friends from the greenwood come and intrude into the city and play out a rescue. One of the things that we see in the tale at this point is the way in which the news of what's happening to Will in Carlisle gets out through a crevice in the wall. And there's a town swineherd which sends the news. This boy sends the news out to Will's associates in the Greenwood that they need to come to the rescue. And equally, when they come in, the way that they enter into the city is they trick the porter at one of the gates by saying, we have a royal seal. Let us through. They end up duping him to let them through the gate. So the tale here is one which is about law, authority, and the problems associated with justice in the time which these outlaw ballots deal with. It's also giving us insights into thinking about how the city walls can be navigated and how some of these figures of authority could be overcome. They nevertheless rescue Will from execution and escape, but they are eventually caught up by their pursuers. They end up before the royal court, and Will has to perform a feat of archery. He shoots an apple off of the head of his son, a trope which we see in many of these sorts of battles. But nevertheless it ends up persuading the Queen that a royal pardon should be given to all three men, and they end up living happily ever after. So one of many examples of these outlaw ballads, but one which is notable because it's set in Carlisle and tells us a little bit about the way in which that town's defenses could be problematic. We'll come back to crumbling walls and repairs, but I think that's part of that story there as well.
- [14:11]
Kate Lister
Yeah. So you mentioned that Carlisle undergoes several major sieges, maybe one a century through the medieval period. I wanted to pick out the one in 1315 in particular to talk about. So could you give us a little bit of background about how Carlisle ends up under siege in 1315, please?
- [14:28]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
So this is the context of what's known as the Scottish wars of Independence, a little known element of wars of independence lore in terms of when in 1296 those wars first break out. Actually, Carlisle Castle is subject to one of the very early attacks by a group of Scottish earls in 1296 across the border to reject the authority of English King Edward I. They attack Carlisle Castle. And the person who's defending Carlisle Castle in 1296 is none other than Robert Bruce, who's the father of Robert I. So the extent to which, through the 13th century, in the context of the wars of independence, there was a tremendous intermingling of noble ties on both sides of the border. And one of the consequences of the wars of independence was very much forcing nobles who had lands and allegiances to both English king and Scottish king to choose a side. Eventually, it was by the 1310s that Robert I, who'd claimed the Scottish crown in 1306, had secured his position as ruler within Scotland, very much conducting a civil war within Scotland as well. But by the 1310s, leading up to a tremendously successful engagement for Robert I forces at the Battle of Bannockburn, just outside of Stirling Castle. This was a victory and a triumph for Robert's position within Scotland. And what he needed to do following from 1314, was to press his claim to be recognized by the English king. And in this time, it was now English King Edward II. And in 1315, the Scottish army was conducting a number of raids and incursions, keeping pressure on the far north of England. And one of the ways that came to a focal point was the assault on Carlisle Castle in the summer of 1315. And we know this was led by Robert the First himself. So here he is leading a siege some 20 years after his own father had been defending the same site. But what he comes with. We don't have an indication of the size of the army, but we do have an indication of the scale of works that were underway in terms of preparation and conduct of the siege. And we have a decent narrative of events from the Lener Cost chronicler, which tells us that the Scots arrived in late July, so the 22nd of July, and they ended up conducting a very first day assault on the city gates of Carlisle, none of which were successful. But then the king established his position to the west of the city itself, near the Holy Trinity Church. And it then was the case that the siege effort was conducted by the carpenters of the Scottish forces. The joiners and the carpenters were busy at work constructing a siege tower as well as a catapult. And the intention was to bombard the gates, especially on the west side of the city, with stones projected by the catapult. And in building a siege tower, to build something that was going to be higher itself than the city walls. What happens on the defensive side, according to the Lenacross Chronicle, is that the defenders, who had their own catapults and bolt firing weapons that were called spring gulls that are shooting these long bolts or darts, end up also putting their carpenters to work. And so they build with wood on the walls up higher on the site where they were expected the siege tower to be placed in a defensive preparation. So you've almost got very literally an arms race where they're trying to build higher than the other. The problem principally for the Scottish force in 1315, was the weather. It was the summer which destroyed crops all around Europe and which led to famine in the coming years. This was a time of pelting rain and soggy weather. The siege tower itself was never to make it to the actual walls of the city. It ended up stuck in the mud. But the scouts were also underway. They were making long ladders which they could scale the walls. They were making a mobile shelter for mining the walls and trying to get up against the walls to SAP the foundations. They called that a sow. But none of these ended up being effective. The problem was the wet ground. They were trying to fill up the moat with corn stalk so they could pass over, build log bridges. But all of this is just sinking into the mud. And by the 9th and 10th day of this siege, the Scots then bring together, in a final effort, an attempt to put the city to siege. They apply greater force on the eastern side of the city walls. And one of the figures leading in the Scottish force is James Douglas, military leader, closely linked with the exploits of Robert I. He goes to the west side of the wall and it said that he attempted there, at a site which was very high and which wasn't expecting to have an attack, had ladders and with covering fire from bowmen, shoot, so that the ladders could be raised. But nevertheless, the city defenders catch onto this. They end up coming around and successfully defending this assault. And it's said that only one man was struck by an arrow, and on a previous occasion, one of the catapults bombarding the western gate had killed one other man. So according to this Chronicle, there were only actually two fatalities suffered by the defenders in the course of this siege. The scots on day 11, ended up departing, leaving their siege engines behind, and English forces then pursued them and they ended up capturing some of the Scottish leaders, which they then held to ransom. You get quite a detailed Description in the 1315 events of what was involved in the siege of a castle and city like Carlisle, and a strong sense, I think, from the outside of the city walls, what that effort might have looked like.
- [21:05]
Kate Lister
Yeah, it gets to sound almost comical, doesn't it, when they're building higher and higher walls on each side and you can imagine them scurrying up and down and adding another layer of wood on top so that the other side has to go away and build their siege tower a little bit higher. But I should imagine from the inside, it's anything but funny, because on this occasion, Carlisle Castle has done its job, it's fended off the siege. But for a garrison inside, it must be fairly terrifying to be under siege, because the idea is these people are here to starve you out, to maybe kill you, to take your property and your home. So without the benefit of hindsight, knowing that this will be a short siege that will be scuppered by the weather, it must be fairly terrifying for the people inside any castle but Carlisle in this moment to be undergoing a siege.
- [21:52]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Yeah, I think that's something which also comes through in terms of the variable size of the garrison within the castle itself. In times of truce, this could be something in the nature of 10 or 20 soldiers, really small forces. Perhaps they're more designed to be able to sally out from the castle and repel raiders. But one of the things that the city would have experienced in the context of the siege was the sense of it as a place of safety and refuge, as the Scots were raiding in the surrounding countryside, destroying crops, raiding cattle, burning and laying waste, that people would have come to the city for safety. Pressure in terms of where people can go, what resources are available, and then pressure also in terms of the increased size of the garrison, from the relatively modest size of garrison I mentioned a moment ago, actually you're looking at about the low hundreds in terms of the garrison size. So I think there's about 395 foot soldiers at the end of 1314, plus more knights, men at arms and archers. So you're actually seeing from the inside of the city pressure in terms of population and squeeze of resource, which would have increased all of those tensions, a sense of anxiety and the uncertainty of what would transpire.
- [23:11]
Kate Lister
Yeah. And I guess almost counterintuitively, the stronger the force inside, the more problematic that is in the event of a siege. Because there's simply more mouths to feed.
- [23:19]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Exactly right. And more people to disagree with each other. Plenty of tension, I'm sure, created through the reality of bringing that force together to undertake a defense.
- [23:29]
Kate Lister
Yeah. And I guess that sense of it being easy to disagree is added to by there's the practical problems of being under siege, but there's also the psychological effect of it. I would imagine that you are trapped. And humans as mammals, we don't like being trapped somewhere. That's got to have a psychological effect on the people caught within the castle. That perhaps makes the fraying of relationships even more likely.
- [23:52]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Yes, and that's something which we can see some clearer evidence of if we move further in time now into the 15th century, we could see that with some of the effects around the siege of Carlisle in 1461.
- [24:08]
Kate Lister
Perfect spark.
- [24:22]
Matt Lewis
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- [25:48]
Dr. Eleanor Yonega
I'll have to keep my voice down because right now I'm between the actual bedsheets of some of history's most famous figures. Want to know more about what Hitler might have been like in the sack? Or Julius Caesar? Or our very own Billy Shakespeare? You wouldn't believe the details I'm able to uncover here on Betwixt the Sheets, a podcast by History hit because sexuality explored through a historical lens can reveal a surprising amount about the human experience, warts and all, if you'll excuse the pun. And we don't just stop at sex. Expect outrageous scandals throughout the centuries as well as probing into everyday issues. The nitty gritty of human life that really connects us to all people throughout history. Join me, Kate Lister, every Tuesday and Friday on Betwixt the Sheets to find out more. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Right, time to slide out of here and avoid the bedpan.
- [26:56]
Kate Lister
Let's move into my history home then. The wars of the Roses, 1461. I'm very happy to be here. What is the context then for the siege of Carlisle in 1461? How does it end up under siege then?
- [27:05]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
This is 1460. Tremendous battles. Battle of Wakefield by December 1460, with a Lancastrian victory, another Lacastrian victory, Battle of St. Albans in February of 1461. But in the Battle of Towton, March 1461, the final victory for the Yorkist party, which causes at this stage the scope for Edward IV now to formalize his position as King of England. But for the former king, Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou, his queen, their son Prince Edward, and leading Lancastrian nobles, the only option at this point is to flee the kingdom. And what they do is they move north and they cross the border into Scotland. At this point in Scotland, that is a period of royal minority. Child king is James iii, but his mother, Amary of Guelders, is one of the leading figures within the kingdom, within the minority at this point. And she is known to have met with the exiled Lancastrians. And one of the things that the exiled Margaret ends up bringing to the Scots is the town of berwick upon tweed. That is something which is formally ceded on the 25th of April 1461. And arriving in Scotland, it seems that the next step is to put pressure with force on the city and castle of Carlisle. And so with a combined force of Lancastrian now rebels against the Yorkist regime, led by Margaret, but also Duke of Exeter, Lord Rougemont Grave. But Also others of knightly status, but with ties within the north, including Sir Humphrey Dacre, a Cumbrian landowning family member, make an assault on the city of Carlisle itself. And we have this playing out predominantly the month of May and through to June. One of the things that is frustrating about this period is a relative absence of surviving information about what transpires in the siege. So we're having to piece together quite a lot here from later references to what has occurred. But there is a Lancastrian Scottish combined siege of Carlisle against those who are holding it in the name of King Edward iv, the Yorkist king, now newly established in the summer of 1461. From later references, we know that northern knight, also with Cumberland properties near to Carlisle. Richard Salkeld, who is a Yorkist adherent, ends up going to the west of the county of Cumberland to put down the seizure of Cockermouth by the Earl of Wiltshire. He then seems to move towards Carlisle and to engage with the besieging force in some form of combat in the moment of the siege itself. And we know this because of a later grant by Edward IV in reward to Saukeld for having performed this service. We know also the steps that are taken for armies to be raised in support of the relieving of this siege on behalf of Edward IV's government, the Neville family. Richard, Earl of Warwick, the Kingmaker, but his brother, John Neville, Lord Montague, seems to be the leading figure who is at the time of Salkeld's action, is raising a force east of the Pennines. He then comes to Carlisle and there is some engagement there which we know from a later letter in the Paston letter collection that is describing an account of a battle which occurs where it says some 6,000 Scots were killed. Now, again, grains of salt needed, with any indication of numbers killed or army sizes, but that's, I think, a clear indication that there was a battle which occurred to drive the invading force back. The later evidence also includes repairs within the city walls itself. So repairs to the priory and a number of, not least the building of what becomes a tide bar, date from this time. And the grants in this regard, and a grant from the Crown to the civic community in relief of the damage suffered during the time of the siege, suggest that, yes, the attackers did make it inside, certainly within the city walls, if not within the castle itself.
- [31:57]
Kate Lister
So part of siege warfare will generally be, if there's a town next to the castle, you would look to reduce those suburbs, because what you want to do is eliminate places for the enemy to Hide. So you sometimes see the defending force of the castle destroying suburbs to prevent the attacking force from having somewhere to hide and somewhere to base themselves. But I guess with Carlisle, that connection between the town and the castle mean that that's possibly more tricky because you don't want to be destroying everything that is your local community, if you can possibly avoid it.
- [32:23]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
I think that's right. One of the things in terms of local community that comes through as well in later evidence from the 1460s is a resolution by the town government in 1464, which is that those who had during the siege time, they use this Middle English term within a Latin document, the siege time. Those who had gone against the defense of the city and castle and who had gone over to the attackers were to be excluded from the freedom of the city. They were, if they had previous privileges to be members of the guild, this was to be denied to them in future. So there's a clear sense a few years after the siege that these divisions, those choices that were made at the time were tremendously pressing ones. This is something which is very much part of a civil war. And all the challenges that the wars of the Roses presented for involved is that you're having to choose which side you're on and to choose to go against your neighbors. So there is one exception which is permitted to this resolution in 1464. One man is named, called John Young, who's a cutlery maker within the town. And other references suggest that he's relatively prominent within the town's trade community. He seems to be excused from this future ban at the express request of Lord Montague. So we're don't get any indication of exactly what happened, but there's this tantalizing glimpse there of all the strange subtlety that might have occurred. And how had he managed to redeem himself to Montague, who by that time was now Earl of Northumberland, to merit this recognition, that, okay, he should be the one exception. Now, he was still gonna have to pay for the privilege to be readmitted into the Freedom and Guild membership, being able to trade, but he was not to be excluded. So the extent to which a violent event like the siege of 1461 can leave a really lasting set of consequences for the local community is something that is apparent.
- [34:47]
Dr. Eleanor Yonega
I'll have to keep my voice down, because right now I'm between the actual bedsheets of some of history's most famous figures. Want to know more about what Hitler might have been like in the sack? Or Julius Caesar or our very own Billy Shakespeare? You wouldn't believe the details I'm able to uncover here on Betwixt the Sheets, a podcast by Historyhit. Because sexuality explored through a historical lens can reveal a surprising amount about the human experience, warts and all, if you'll excuse the pun. And we don't just stop at sex. Expect outrageous scandals throughout the centuries as well as probing into everyday issues. The nitty gritty of human life that really connects us to all people throughout history. Join me, Kate Lister, every Tuesday and Friday on Betwixt the Sheets to find out more. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Right, time to slide out of here and avoid the bedpan.
- [35:55]
Kate Lister
And I guess even for a border castle like Carlisle, it's another facet to the events of 1461 that as a civil war, not necessarily everyone within the town and castle agrees about which side to take. There was clearly a division, which you wouldn't expect to see necessarily if the Scots were marauding across the border and community galvanizes to defend themselves from an invading force. When you've got a civil war, it seems pretty clear that there was some dispute, disagreement inside the town and castle about exactly which side they should be on.
- [36:25]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
I think that's exactly right, Matt. And that's part of the challenge of living within a border region anyway, in the wider sense of how does one get on with their neighbors adjacent across the border, and that over time there is a perpetual state of warfare. There's long years of truce that could be interspersed with episodes of raiding, and certainly was. But nevertheless, people have to rub along together and make the most of eking out a living in the towns and countrysides within the border region. So that's something which I think is not just part of conflict episodes like these sieges, but the question of surviving and living and making the most of life in a borderland.
- [37:04]
Kate Lister
Just before we leave the siege of 1461, this is the period when gunpowder, weapons and artillery are beginning to move into greater use within England. Does that siege of Carlisle involve any use of artillery?
- [37:17]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
So again, we don't have records that show us that, but we do have records from the 1430s that we know that the castle was supplied with iron cannons, that there were six iron cannons in the 1430s which would be part of the defensive array. So we're not just looking at bolt throwers now, but there had previously in the 1380s, the first reference to cannons at Carlisle as part of the defensive array was around the castle specifically is to brass cannons, and there were up to about six or eight brass cannons in the 1380s, another time of Anglo Scottish conflict. But there's evidence there that cannons had become part of the apparatus of the defence.
- [37:56]
Kate Lister
And it sounds like Carlisle's a relatively early adopter of cannon, which may play into its position on the border.
- [38:02]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Yep, that's something which costs money to supply. This is part of the Crown expense in the region. And one of the things that we also see in terms of Crown expenditure in the region, but in Carlisle specifically, would be upkeep of the walls, upkeep of the towers and structures within the castle itself, and the way in which the wardens are often asking for funding to be able to support the repair of the castle, the way in which the civic community itself is also asking for relief from its obligations to the Crown to be able to put that money towards repair. There's a constant note of the walls are always crumbling, the walls are always at the point of collapse and we desperately need help. I think there's an element of truth in that. Takes a tremendous effort to maintain a structure as impressive as a castle like Carlisle and its walls over hundreds of years. But there's also, I think, an element of rhetoric that we should keep an eye for as well. What's sometimes been described as frontier rhetoric, which is something that the officers of the Crown become very well versed in engaging with when they're trying to persuade the purse strings of royal government to be loosened or for obligations to be forgiven so that they're not under financial pressure as much as they might be.
- [39:16]
Kate Lister
Yeah, I guess it becomes really compelling when you can say, well, you know, you could not give us this money if you like, but, you know, next time the Scots come. Nah, who knows if we'll be able to keep them out anymore?
- [39:26]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
This is the implication. And you go to the reign of Henry IV and his son, Prince John, later Duke of Bedford. He's not at Carlisle, but he's at Berke and he's the Warden of the East March based at Berwick. He's playing that game from very early. He's learning very well how to make those claims and to shake loose the relief for funding from his father's regime.
- [39:50]
Kate Lister
And just before we leave Carlisle, there's some stunning kind of carvings on the walls at Carlisle. What do we know about those?
- [39:57]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Yeah, this is one of the most fascinating things about Carlisle Castle itself. I found them so compelling that they're on the COVID of my book England's Northern frontier. They are within the. What's known as the castle keep, so the main dungeon or tower of the Oldest part of the castle itself. They're sometimes described as the prisoner's carvings because they're outside of a room which was used as a prison, but they're also in that space as well, adjacent to a room which was used as a chapel. So it's not entirely clear that they were carved by prisoners. They were probably carved by some of the people who were employed to live and maintain life within the castle, perhaps a chaplain, perhaps one of the porters or men at arms or other foot soldiers who were based there. They seem to be dateable to the 1480s, not least because of the way the armor is depicted, but because there are carvings of helms and men in suits of armor. But there's also a tremendous amount of heraldry. With no surprise in terms of the visual culture of the 15th century. The heraldry seems to depict the leading families of the time. So that of the Duke of Gloucester, who in the 1480s then becomes king, but is closely associated with Carlisle and the West March, the Dacre family, the Percy family, their badges, symbols and elements from their coats of arms are there. So you've got dolphins from the Dacre family or Percy Federlock, for instance. This is some of the more predictable stuff that you might imagine could be there. But then there's. Within the same realm, there's tremendous amount of religious iconography, also predictable to an extent, part of the visual culture of the later Middle Ages. So you've got saints depicted, there's Catherine on her wheel, evidently St. Sebastian being attacked with arrows, but a holy monogram of Jesus is there. And then it gets into kind of fantastic beasts and creatures that aren't really placeable. There are stags, there are heads which have two horns within them, and the horns which have faces on them. And there are weird and wonderful mix of images here, which you have to imagine were carved to an extent probably by candlelight, or certainly viewed by candlelight. And imagine in the darker months of the year what this might have looked like with the shadows cast. And were these designed just as a hobby and a pastime, or were they there to tell stories? And who was the audience? It's a really fascinating element from 15th century England, actually, which is worth thinking about more deeply in terms of a collection of carved visual imagery in a space like this. Very fascinating stuff.
- [42:30]
Kate Lister
It is really interesting to think about, as you say, those carvings being viewed by candlelight. You think about the movement of the candlelight causing the shadows to move. It sounds absolutely fascinating. I'm not sure what it tells us about life in the castle. But I guess in the drawings you've got something predictable and everyday, but also fantastical. It's eclectic and it reflects a range of interests. And I guess if we think about the medieval people living in the castle, probably an eclectic bunch with a range of interests.
- [42:57]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
And I think that's right. And in a space which was constantly changing over time with different phases of building within the castle and repair. And you can imagine those, whoever made these carvings probably in the 1480s, you know, thinking that they were making their mark within a changing building site as well.
- [43:16]
Kate Lister
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Jackson. It's been a pleasure to get to know Carlisle Castle a little bit better. It's definitely bumped up my list of castles to go and visit and imagine a bit of storytelling around some candlelight in front of all of those carvings. I think when I go and look at them. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been fascinating to learn all about Carlisle Castle at war.
- [43:33]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Thank you very much indeed.
- [43:36]
Matt Lewis
Jackson's book England's Northern Conflict and Local society in the 15th century Scottish marches is out now. If you'd like to explore this part of the life of castles in the context of border politics, you can also watch episodes of the Castles that Made Britain if you're a History Hit subscriber. With more coming soon on the castles of Ireland, you can find the other episodes in our Castle series over the couple of weeks before this episode. And we've also got a great one in the back catalogue with John Goodall on the story of castles more broadly. There are new installments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe as a special gift. You can also get 50% off your first three months when you use the Code Medieval at checkout. Anyway, I better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just Gone Medieval with History Hit.
- [45:06]
Eva Longoria
Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?
- [45:09]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs? Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.
- [45:13]
Eva Longoria
Our podcast Hungry for History is back.
- [45:16]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
And this season we're taking an even.
- [45:18]
Eva Longoria
Bigger bite out of the most delicious.
- [45:20]
Professor Jackson Armstrong
Food and its history, seeing that the most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the Mojito from Cuba and the Pinocola from Puerto Rico.
- [45:28]
Eva Longoria
Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.