Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (2:17)

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Professor Florin Curta (2:27)

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Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (2:46)

Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaunega and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. Picture this, the sun drenched Dalmatia coast, where the sapphire Adriatic laps against ancient stone walls. We think we know this place with its Venetian harbors and Roman ruins. But what if everything we thought we understood about medieval Croatia was wrong? Who were the people who built the first Croatian kingdom along this contested coastline? What if their very identity was far more complex, more contested, more fascinating than the simple narratives we've inherited? How did Dalmatia's unique position between the Latin west and the Greek east, between emerging Slavic societies and fading Roman traditions, create a medieval world that defies our modern categories? Today? I'm joined by Professor Florin Curta from the University University of Florida, whose groundbreaking work has fundamentally changed how we understand the birth of nations in Eastern Europe. Professor Carter doesn't just read the chronicles, he excavates the silences between them. He's argued that the Slavic identity itself may have been less in ancient ethnic truth and more a political instrument forged in the crucible of Byzantine frontier politics. 6 It's a perspective that has sparked fierce debate and hopefully we'll be enjoying a little bit of that here today. We'll discover a Dalmatia that was never a passive recipient of civilizations, but an active architect of its own destiny. The story of how frontiers became homelands, how identities are forged in conflict, and how the medieval world of Dalmatia shaped the European we know today. Professor Kurda, welcome to Gone Medieval.

Professor Florin Curta (5:13)

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (5:15)

Well, I'm very pleased to have you because I have brought you here in order to up the amount of Slavicism happening on Gone Medieval and in particular, kind of a tricky one to get you on today because we want to talk about medieval Croatia and Croatia as a concept really ebbs and flows in the medieval period. And also it's difficult to cram this all into one show because this is an area where we have just absolutely excellent documentation for the entirety of the medieval period and before. So it's hard to know where to start.

Professor Florin Curta (5:52)

I would say adding to that that in addition to the written documentation, which I think you had in mind, there's been an explosion of archaeological research and historical, should I say synthetical works based on that or at least trying to combine the written with the archaeological evidence with fascinating results. I would say probably one of the dynamic areas of historical archaeological research in the pool of the Balkans, which is

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (6:20)

really saying something as well, because there are exciting things coming out of the field of Balkan studies constantly. I've worked for a while on the Laws of Medieval Croatia project, so I'm a little in the weeds on this one, I must admit that. But I suppose if we were going to start talking about medieval Croatia, I think that we actually sort of have to begin before the so called fall of the Roman Empire. I think that 476 is actually even a little bit late for our purposes because what are we looking at before western Rome falls?

Professor Florin Curta (6:55)

So the area we're talking about here is I'm gonna say divided, but constituted a major province, Dalmatia. In other words, the geography of the area makes it clear that one would have the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea with a number of cities. There's a specific feature, geographically speaking of that area, large number of large and small islands along the coast providing excellent shelter for ships, so harbors and you know, beyond a narrow strip of land on the coast you get the mountains and beyond the mountains it's a completely different landscape culturally, obviously geographically and historically speaking, which is why most people actually link Dalmatia to developments within the larger Adriatic Sea, which obviously would actually have been a Roman thing to do before even the empire. So this is actually probably already a republican development, a development of the republican phase of Roman history and the interior, which posed problems of government, problems of transportation, roads, you know, things like that. As a consequence of which the present day territory of Croatia is in fact divided between two, maybe even three provinces. So what we call northern Croatia nowadays was part of Pannonia in the Roman Empire. I should say that Illyricum as a whole, in other words, the area in the western northwestern Balkans was a province or a region of interest for the Romans. You mentioned when to start. Maybe at the time of the three Punic wars, even something like that. Right. So B.C. by all means, and republican government, as I said. But if we are going to go into medieval developments, I would say that number one, you're right. 476 the so called fall of the Roman Empire. In fact, the end of the Roman Empire as an institution, not a fall properly speaking, does not have much of a bearing on the area here. Nor does its compounding label great migrations, barbarians coming in. As a matter of fact, in the history of the Balkans this region is, is very interesting in the sense that there is very little. I'm not saying that it was completely devoid of so called barbarian invasions, but their impact on the region is much, much smaller than that. Let's say the central Balkans or areas further to the east like in present day Bulgaria or Greece. Even so, well into the sixth century, definitely within the two decades of the seventh century. There's not much evidence of destruction perpetrated supposedly either by the fall of the Roman Empire or by the barbarian im since the interior was very rich in metal ores. There's even evidence of mining right at the border between what would be today Croatia and Bosnia, specifically on the upper Nereva Valley. And you know, the mining there as far as we can tell, may have well survived or can continue rather well into the 6th century. That brings a peculiar Roman flavor, which I mean explains why this region is distinct in the whole of Europe for another reason. After, in the post Roman era, there is no evidence of discontinuity in the urban empire. In other words, on the Dalmatian coast you have places like Zadar, like Trogir, like Split, that continued with no interruption whatsoever from the Roman into the modern times, I should say, because they're still occupied. So there is no gap. There is no such thing as a demise of the cities, maybe revived in the Middle Ages and so on and so forth. Obviously they shrank in size, but you know, the transformations taking place could by no means be described in terms of destruction, catastrophe, et cetera.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (10:47)

And these are sizable cities as well. I mean these are cities that have a real footprint.

Professor Florin Curta (10:52)

Spalato was, you know, quite clearly large. I mean even if they were not as large as let's say Sirmium further up north, Srenskami, Trovisa nowadays, or Thessalonica, Thessaloniki nowadays in northern Greece, you know, they were smaller than that. They had a political significance. Consider the fact that after introducing reform of the Roman government in the late third century, known as the Tetrarchy, Emperor Diocletian, who was a member of the first team, decided to retire. And where did he go? Spalat.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (11:24)

Exactly. I mean, I think that it's going to be somewhere where a lot of Our visitors may have seen because, you know, Split is this big tourist destination anymore for just that reason. I'm quite interested though in this point that you've made about how we don't see that much disruption at this point in time in the sort of Roman successor states period, because we do see so called barbarians move into the area. I mean, at least around what is now Zagreb. We certainly see some Ostrogothic intrusions, but we just don't see the same level of violence or at least upheaval.

Professor Florin Curta (12:01)

The area beyond the mountains, let's say, let's put it this way. So northern Croatia nowadays had a name in Roman and post Roman times. Liburnia. That area is indeed, or witnessed indeed, not the destruction, but the disappearance, simply abandonment of large urban settlements, probably as early as the 4th century. But that has nothing to do with the invasions themselves. It may have something to do with the processes taking place inside the empire in Slavonia, which is the region you mentioned, Zagreb being most prominent in the area there present the capital of the country. That's an area which is in fact the southern part of the province of Pannonia, which I mentioned earlier on. And its history, including the presence or absence of barbarians in the area, is linked to developments there. What is very interesting is that whatever developments were there had no reflection or very little reflection on developments on Dalmatian coast, the two being separated by mountains. So let's say you have indeed you have the Ostrogoths in the area, you know, under Theodoric, moving through the area towards Italy, which they conquer. You have the Lombards there later on, right? Descending into the same region of Italy through the same area. It's a must, right? Two areas that connect Pannonia with Italy, northeastern Italy would be involved in this, no matter what you do. This is the area of Slavonia of present day Croatia and Slovenia too. So the neighboring country to the northwest. There is no way you can avoid that, because in order to pass or to cross to the passes of the Eastern Alps, you have to go through there. Coming from Pannonia, that is. But all of this is almost parallel, almost like nothing, no results, no echoes in the settlements on the coast on the coast of the Adriatic Sea. So those are. Sometimes they're parallel development. It's almost like you have two distinct history lines to actually connect them. Every now and then there are connections. For example, later on in the 6th century, when the Avars come into Pannonia into the present day area of Hungary, we learn from a source in Constantinople that the Avars sent a group of Kutrigurs, those were nomads from the steppe lands north of the Black Sea, which they have probably drawn all the way to Pannonia, sent them all to Dalmatia and they sacked some of the towns there, and so on and so forth. And there has been some attempt to actually link a few cases in which on fortified sites in continental Croatia, you see burnt layers, layers of destruction in archaeological terms, to link it to the presence of the Kutrigus there. But there's very little actually of them. And in fact, the source tells us that although they were sent to Dalmatia, they were actually stalked by Roman troops that actually managed to ambush them. In the end, it was not so much destruction of the Roman settlements in the area as of the troops, Abars or Kuchev's, that sector.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (14:46)

So what do we see then in these areas with the arrival of the Slavs? Because I was given to understand that certainly we do see Slavs move into the area around Dalmatia. But this doesn't seem to make a huge dent in terms of the makeup of, for example, the patrician class in towns. You know, it seems to be that there are sort of old school Dalmatians who are controlling the cities and Slavs are a little bit more in the countryside. But is that overly simplistic as a way of seeing it?

Professor Florin Curta (15:15)

It's problematic. The reason there are three reason. Reason that I can think of that actually makes it problematic indeed. What you just said earlier on is the traditional, the scenario offered by the traditional historiography thinking that in the case of the Dalmatian coast, Croatia and whatnot, northwestern Balkans, the actual migrations, Greek migrations, are not those of the Ostrogoths or the Lombards or the Huns or whatever, but those of the Slavs, which obviously could be later. The problem is this is the second element. The problem is that recent scholarship, recent studies, I include myself in that, not in order to blow my own horn, but because I actually did offer a comparative view with the situation of the Slavs on the lower Danube around 500, with that south of the Danube, including the areas of northwestern Balkans. But others have picked up on my ideas. A Australian historian, for example, of Bosnian Croatian origin, Daniel Gino, who is a professor in Sydney, wrote a book about this. Actually, there's no evidence in the written sources of Slav settling in the area. We know that they're actually coming to or mentions of them invading not the area here, but actually Istria. So in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, Away from Dalmatia and Croatia, continental Croatia, properly speaking. But there is no written source saying that they settled in the area. Moreover, archaeologically speaking, since this is actually the argument that is usually made for the period we're talking about here, the archaeological evidence does indicate in certain cases, the number of churches that seem to be destroyed by fire. But there is no reason for which this will be done by the Slavs. Moreover, again, there are no settlements. Probably the most interesting aspect of this discussion is that the pottery, from an archaeological point of view, all over Europe the Slavs are identified, let's put it this way, by at least three elements. One is the the sunken floored buildings, sunken on purpose in order to create an insulation for the inhabitants, either warmer in the winter or cooler in the sun. No such thing in Croatia. None so far from handmade pottery of a certain attribute, so called Prague type pottery, after settlements and cemeteries excavated in the 20s and 30s of last century in the city of Prague. And indeed there is no evidence of that kind of potter that could be dated the 7th century in the area either. And perhaps the most impressive of all elements, cremation cemeteries. Given the fact that by the time we're talking about here, so 4th, 5th century, 6th century, within this area under Roman control, inhumation was the predominant rite, you would expect cremation to stand out precisely in the sense of like a contrast agent if you want, or the presence of those barbarians, whomever they are. Okay. The earliest cremation cemeteries that have been radiocarbon dated on the territory of present day Croatia cannot be dated before year 700 and most likely are not linked to the invasions that we're talking about here. So what do we do with this? I proposed initially, and Daniel developed the argument even further, that probably no invasions actually took place in Dalmatia. And the presence of the Slavs that you mentioned earlier on is actually an acculturation process in which language must have been involved. And that brings me to the last part of your question. Indeed, that must have affected the rural areas, not the urban ones. Or if they affected the urban ones, that's a way later phenomenon of the High Middle Ages and late Middle Ages, the earliest times, when we hear from the written sources that Slavic speaking population had access into the cities, the cities remained Roman, the countryside changed, change not just in terms of language, there are other changes happening in the area. There the patterns, economic patterns of the cultivation of the soil that existed in Roman times are abandoned in favor of much simpler forms. So this is not an ethnic, or not only an ethnic Change. Nobody denies that there may have been people coming from the north, probably from the area of the other khaganate, which I mentioned is Pannonia. Right. So nobody denies the possibility of small scale migrations, but nothing like a huge mass of people coming into the air and replacing the local population. On the contrary. But there is clear indication of a, of a fundamental change in the social and economic profile of the area between let's say 600 and 800.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (19:42)

I think that that is a far more interesting story actually, because I think it's so easy to kind of.

Professor Florin Curta (19:48)

I mean, I'm not trying to convince anyone. That's what it is. If anybody can, can tell a better story. Let's hear it.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (19:55)

Yeah, let's hear it. It's so interesting. You know, like obviously as someone who's, who works on the Czech lands, you know, we have these really obvious incursions of Slavs. We do. You know, I've worked on digging up some of the, of the cemeteries, you

Professor Florin Curta (20:11)

know, here the problems are more like dates. Indeed, we have evidence from the written sources of a polity of a. I don't want to call it a state, but some do. The information in question comes From a chronicle, 7th century chronicle, Frankish chronicle, attributed to one unknown author whom later historians called Fredegar. And the chieftain also called king by Fredegar, of that polity is a man named Samo. And Samo ruled over the Wends. Exactly where Samo's polity was is not quite clear. But at least Samo parts of the present day Czech lines may have been covered by it. There's also quite clear evidence of a 7th century massive presence of the elements I just described to you all three right. In the Czech lets, but not earlier than that. So area of present day Czech Republic, Slovakia and northeastern Austria. The argument is not so much whether or not their Slavs are coming, if they are coming, where they are coming from, are they coming from areas, let's say further to the east, such as Ukraine, or they are coming from the Carpathian basin, from the area at that time already conquered by the Avars, and at what moment in time in Dalmatia and in the entire area of northwestern Balkans, including this, Bosnia as well. To some extent is true for Serbia, but only to some extent the argument is completely different. There is no evidence of migration whatsoever. So you have to provide an explanation that actually would emphasize the social and economic transformations, not so much the replacement of one group of population with a number.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (21:40)

So you've mentioned now that some of the sources that we're using for this are coming via the Franks. And this is sort of, by the time we get to the 9th century, there is some sort of back and forth between the Eastern Roman Empire and the Franks as to who is going to control Dalmatia. Can you tell us a little bit about what happens there?

Professor Florin Curta (21:59)

So the encroachment, Frankish encroachment to this area comes as a direct consequence of two historical processes. One is the incorporation of Bavaria into the Frankish realm. Bavaria had been connected with the Franks for quite some time right now, but it also, by virtue of matrimonial alliances, was connected to Lombard Italy, both of which were close to what we're talking about here, the northwest. And the second probably most important aspect, the defeat of the Avars by the Frankish armies under Charlemagne. It is after that, after the defeat, the demise of the Avars, that a true march like intrusion into the area through the extension of the Duchy of Friuli in what is today northeastern Italy. So the area on the northern shore of the Adriatic Sea becomes significant. Now, two points here about this that actually explain the conflict, as you mentioned, between the Franks and the Byzantines. Number one is who's going to have control over Istria, which, besides the fact that has a role in the navigation routes, in the sailing routes in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, was in fact a granary. Another area in which you don't see any destruction whatsoever until the 9th century is almost like a continuity, smooth continuity from late antiquity to the Middle Ages. We have a fantastic document called the Placitum, that's minutes of judicial meeting, let's put it this way, of Rizano or Reggiano. Nowadays, the describing the realities on the ground in Istria in a way that is without parallel anywhere in Europe at that time. And it looks like Roman society. The document itself is 9th century, early 9th century. So that's one. And the other, probably equally significant is the presence of Venice in the area. Venice city in Italy that has no Roman roots. It's a medieval city in the truest sense of the word, was at that time part of the Byzantine Empire. And Venetians are by now rising to actually control the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea. So out of this quite complex configuration comes a conflict, right, between the Franks and the Byzantines, complicated by two other phenomena. The rise of, most likely the rise of some kind of party of chiefdoms of the local Slavs, as you mentioned them, in Croatia proper, and the earliest raids of the Arabs coming from the Mediterranean Sea against some of the towns on the southern part of the east Adriatic coast, Ragusa, present day Dubrovnik, was put under siege by the Arabs. Towards the end of the 9th century, the agreement between the Franks and the Byzantines in the area was reached, the so called Treaty of Aachen, through which the Byzantines retained control over the coast because they wanted to have control over those towns that remain Roman. As I mentioned, they retained formal control over Venice as well. The doge of Venice was essentially a duke, that's what the Italian word actually means of the imperial administration in Byzantium, while the Franks retained control of Istria, hence the placitum of the dimension to you and the interior, in other words, away from the coast, in what is today Croatia proper. Those are the circumstances in which there is an explosion of Frankish influence, Frankish culture, Frankish weapons, Frankish modes of thinking in the interior, which all of which are connected to the rise of Croatia as a medieval state.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (25:26)

And then we get in the actual rise of Croatia and the establishment of a kingdom that we can point at and call Croatia in about 425. Is that correct?

Professor Florin Curta (25:36)

No, no. So the developments that we talk about here, so the earliest Frankish influence that we can talk about is probably middle or second half of the 8th century. But the true developments, the explosion and all of that is shortly after 800, coincides, in other words, with Charlemagne's involvement in the area and the involvement of his successor, Louis the Pious, in the area as well. Then there's a number of dukes, a number of rulers, right, that are mentioned either in local inscriptions, maybe we can talk about this, or in the correspondence of the Pope, who's clearly interested in exactly when those people became Christian. Nobody knows. There is no mission, there is no nothing. But suddenly the popes are interested in that area, as if it has already a tradition of being Christian for quite some time. So from the letters or the inscriptions, we learn about a number of dukes. They are called dukes, right? Branimir is one of them, for example, or Tripimir even earlier, and then by the 10th century. So after 900, okay, we hear from the correspondence of the Pope in relation to a couple of synods, church gatherings that took place in split 9:25, 9:28. In relation to that, we hear that the ruler, the chief, the leader in the area there, Tomislav, is not called the duke anymore, it's called the king. So if you want to really put your finger on the chronology of the area, I'd say around 900 or around there, at least in the eyes of the Pope, this individual is not A duke anymore. He's not a small leader, he's a king.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (27:07)

Yeah, see, that's. I suppose that I'm quite familiar with this specific origin story of Tommy Slav being the king and then kind of tacking it onto the idea that, ah, this is a kingdom now.

Professor Florin Curta (27:20)

And.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (27:21)

But I guess that I'm also really dependent on papal correspondence for that idea as well. So.

Professor Florin Curta (27:27)

Yeah, so the synod is very interesting. There are a lot of issues to discuss, to be discussed. But in both 925 and 928, three issues on the agenda of those councils stand out. One upper flower of earlier, the discussion about which towns, which cities were important in the area here. Both synods took place in Split, and there was a bishop there, obviously in Split, but it seems that had been a conflict of some sorts between the local bishop in Split and the bishop of a town, city. What do you want to call it? Further up north? That's on the northern part of an area of peninsula next to Zadar, called Ravnicotar. The town in question is Nin, and we have no idea when that bishop was created there. Probably in the context of the power center of the earlier dukes of Croatia being there. That area, northern area of Hravni Kotar is called to this day Vehrvatih, in other words, the area of the Croats. And maybe you can talk about this. Croats is probably not an ethnic name initially, but the name of an aristocratic group, the ruling group, the elite. Be that as it may, that bishop in Nin is in some kind of dispute with Split, probably because they cannot decide which should. Where should the boundaries between their respective dioceses be placed. That's the context in which the pope's legates, the envoys of the popes, want to intervene and settle the affairs there. The final decision in that respect was to abolish the bishop Rykhovnin, and that turned the bishop of Split into an archbishop. He was, in other words, a metropolitan by now, with jurisdiction not just over entire Dalmatian coast, but over the interior as well. As historians therefore think that this may have been a deal with Tomislav, whereby he agreed to have that bishopric of Nin, which had been probably under control of his predecessors, abolished in exchange with now having a single kingdom, Croatia and a single church, based on the archbishop Rykov Split, who became, in other words, the primate of the country. A second aspect discussed at both council was whether or not to use Slavon demonic as the liturgy. Right. It's the first time we hear about this, in fact, in a letter to the Bishops in Dalmatia. The Pope, I think It's John the 10th, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not quite sure which one, but I think it's the Pope, right, writes, I want you to move away from what he calls Methodi Doctrina, the teachings of Methodius. Now, as far as we know, Methodist never reached Croatia. So neither Constantine, Cyril or Methodist came to this area ever. In other words, their teachings were coming from Moravia, from the eastern part of present day Czech Republic, all the way down. Right. By some sort, we don't know exactly how it's happened, but from this moment onwards, the use of Slavonic for the liturgy and the use of Glagolitic as opposed to the Cyrillic Alphabet for rendering the sounds of the language becomes a matter of identity in Croatia, at least for some people in the area, specifically churchmen. The third element in this discussion, in this third point on the agenda of the two councils I mentioned, 925, 928, is how in fact legates or envoys of the Pope that will come from now on into Croatia will have actually a particular place to stay all the time. In other words, there's a concern with establishing a regular line of communication between Rome and the Croatian kingdom.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (31:05)

But I think this is a really important point because we do have to an extent here, a slight clash between the Church and Constantinople. Right. Because Constantinople very much considers that this area should be at least somewhat under their sphere of power. Is that correct?

Professor Florin Curta (31:25)

Correct, you're right. And by the way, there's a revival of the Byzantine influence. So now it looks like in the 9th century it's receding. I should immediately say that in response to this encroachment of the Franks, the Byzantines create the technical war for the province in the Byzantine Empire during this time is theme, not the theme of a musical piece or the theme of a novel Theme Thema, which meant a province in which the general leading the troops from recruited from that area was also the governor, civilian attributes and the supreme judge there. Okay, so it's a very decentralized form of government, unlike that of the earlier Roman Empire. It's a reaction of the Byzantines to the stress and to the shrinking borders, specifically the fight with the Arabs in the east. So in the area here, Dalmatia is transformed into a theme, into a province. Exactly. At this moment in time headed the general dimension to you was actually his residence was in Zadar. So Zadar is very interesting. Split is in the south, Zadar is next to Nim, as I mentioned. Earlier on, there are two centers. The north remain Byzantines. The south, or center rather is maybe not Frankish, but clearly pro Roman in the sense of the pro or the church of Roman. From we move into the century, so the 11th century there is a restoration of Byzantine episodes. First half of the 11th century there's a restoration of the Byzantine rule in the area here, quite clearly influenced there. As you move into the second half of the 11th century, as you know, in 1054 there's a split of the Church with the Great Schism, west and East, Catholic and Orthodox. Nobody seems to be concerned about this here. There's no animosity, there's no condemnation. There is no either from, from either side. And in the 12th century, the last time, under Manuel first Comnenus, this is third major emperor of the Comnenian dynasty established by Alexius Comnenus, the emperor who called for the Crusades in the first place. Well, he didn't call for the Crusades, he called for help. But the Crusades ensued from that. Right. And undermanual, there's actually a deep involvement in the area with an Archbishop of Split, Rainier, traveling all the way to Constantinople, you know, shower with gifts and whatnot. Rainer is a Catholic bishop, he's well received in Constantinople by a Byzantine Emperor.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (33:41)

Wow, that is really interesting.

Professor Florin Curta (33:44)

And you know, all of this is happening within three or four decades before a Pope Alexander III coming from Rome in his trip to actually get in touch with and negotiate with Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, stops in Zadar. So for the Roman Catholic clergy in the area, there are two points of pressure. The competition with the Orthodox clergy. But really that's not an issue until the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders 1204. And you know, the actual fault lines, battle lines, if you want to put them between the Orthodox and the Catholic in the area, are rather a high medieval or late medieval phenomenon. Okay, number one. Number two, in the high middle ages, in the 11th, 12th, 13th century, there's a conflict between the papacy and the Holy Roman Emperors, German emperors, and there's a reflection on that in the area here. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the end of the independence of the Kingdom of Croatia right in the late 11th century comes as a consequence of just that, not as a consequence of the conflict between Rome and Constantinople.

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Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (37:17)

That is incredibly interesting because I. I just don't know that there's anywhere else I can really say. We see the same set of circumstances. And it's just testament to, I suppose, almost the diplomatic powers of the people who live in this place and also how important they are. You know, this is a group of people that you just sort of want to keep happy. You know, you really want the Dalmatians to be on your side, I suppose.

Professor Florin Curta (37:40)

There is a commercial Factor here as well. Those are very rich cities and they participate in the, in the trade. So. So if you are in Constantinople, for example, and concerned about maintaining control with, over and contact with Venice, then you need all those stops on the eastern Adriatic coast. Right? If you are looking from the Roman perspective, then Dalmatia is right next to Hungary, and Hungary now becomes, after year 1000, becomes a major power in East Central Europe. So in order to establish contact with Hungary, you need this area as well. So you're right. There's an intersection of, of power spheres that transforms this area into probably one of the most fascinating for understanding how people on the ground could navigate great power interests and maintain a sense of independence and a sense of identity. Probably the most interesting aspect of this is that while out of the conflict between the Pope and the emperor, Holy Roman Emperor, known in the history of the Middle Ages as the investiture controversy. Right. Came the concern of that Pope who started it all, Gregory vii. Right. To implement the Gregorian reform in the area they were talking about here. Okay? Meaning first of all, celibacy of the clergy, or not only because of the moral aspect, but in order to prevent that priests or bishops leave their offices in inheritance to their sons. Right. The big elephant in the room for the Gregorian reform is simony, that is to say, the idea of selling church offices, either lay church offices or monastic positions. Abbot, Right. For money or some equivalent material of that. Okay. That's why the Pope also want to endorse, among other things, a certain moral code for the clergy. Right. And pushing the secular interference in the church affairs away way. That's a problem in Croatia because as far as we know, as I said, there is no point at which we can put the finger, chronologically speaking, and say this area was converted to Christianity in the year such and such. There's no such thing. We actually are in the dark completely about how the process took place. However, before year 800, there are already churches built, right? There's quite clear indication not just of Christianity accepted in principle, but of the elites, members of the elites being involved in promoting it. Because most of those churches obviously are not built by. By Benedictine monks who come into the area, for sure, but they are built by the local elites there, all right? And those elites are not going to let those churches be run by anybody else but themselves. In other words, those are their proprietary churches. They think of them as an attribute of their local power there. Now, forward in time into the second half of the 11th century, and you'll see the Popes being quite Upset about this. You cannot have a church in which the local ruler places the priest and then queens the revenue of that church. Right. For his benefit. Right. You cannot have that. So when the church reform is pushed into the area here, remember I told you earlier on that One of the three points discussed the synod's 925, 9002018 split was the use of Slavonic in the liturgy. Okay. So in the 11th century, we have a rebellion, quote unquote, of two bishops in the northern part of Croatia, in the Kvarner Archipelago, the islands of Osor and Krk. Both those bishops decided, we're not going to go with the Gregorian reform. We're going to have specifically Slavonic as liturgy in the church. And the Pope is really upset about this. He's so concerned about this that he's actually right to Sven Estridsson, King of Denmark, asking him maybe he would have a fleet to go all around Europe and take care of those heretics. Wow. We have the letter, in other words, quite clearly indicating that I can. This is probably the Pope was already toying with an idea of crusade.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (41:45)

Yeah. See, and this is an incredibly important point, I think, because we do certainly see Croatia become victimized by varying crusades, endures over time, you know, certainly. I think by the 13th century, we are seeing direct attacks on Zadar.

Professor Florin Curta (42:07)

For example, one of the participants in the first crusade that ended up conquering Jerusalem, Raymond of Toulouse, actually tribe. I don't know if you know, but different commanders of the Crusade. The first Crusade was not a royal crusade, was actually a grassroots phenomenon. Right. So each one of them actually traveled by different routes to. All of them meet in Constantinople and, you know, discuss with Alexios what to do. One of them actually traveled through Croatia, properly speaking. And Remo of Aguilera, who is the chronicler of that group, tells us how difficult the trip was. They consider this country to be completely. So this is, well, late 11th century, when not only we have churches, but we have intervention of the popes in the area, synods, what? Not yet. The crusaders perceive this area as being completely pagan and, you know, killing people randomly and so on, so forth.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (42:54)

Yeah, I mean, this is crusaders all over, isn't it? They get to places they don't understand. These people are Christian, they can't kill them. You know,

Professor Florin Curta (43:03)

they saw a city that was Christian and sected.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (43:05)

Well, yeah, quite so. And I mean, this is the thing, right, is that in 1204, we. We see them sacking Constantinople, but we also see them sacking Zadar around This time as well.

Professor Florin Curta (43:17)

Yes, absolutely right. Absolutely right. So that was less a matter of pagans. It was a matter of the Crusaders being in a binary, that they actually had sign up a contract with the Venetians that they would pay them for a certain amount of ships. Unfortunately, the Venetians provided all the ships. They got the contract of the latter, but there were fewer crusaders than they had anticipated. Therefore, they could not pay. And the old doge of Venice, Rico Dandolo, offered them as a solution. Hey, how about to free you from some of that debt? You do a job for us, Zara. At that time I mentioned Croatia ending as a kingdom and Hungary taking over, first with King Ladislas I and then King Koloman, who was actually crowned as king of Croatia, Slovenia, Dalmatia, Hungary, Croatia, dalmatia, Slovenia in 1102 in Biograd. Because of that, there's quite clearly a Hungarian influence by now. What was not possible in the early Middle Ages, the influence from Pannonia crossing the mountains into Dalmatia. Now it's possible because they're part of the same kingdom. There's a bishopric founded in Zagreb, suffragan of the Archbishop of Ergonom. At the center of the country, Dalmatian Rim remains independent. However, nonetheless, the Hungarians get involved in the election of the Archbishop of Split. They want Hungarians in that office, not people from elsewhere. So there's quite an encroachment of Hungarian power in the area. There come early 13th century, the two sons of Bela III, the. The Hungarian king who took the crusading vows, could not fulfill them because he died in the meantime. One of them is ruling in Hungary, Emerick, and the other one, future King Andrew ii, has this region, Croatia and Dalmatia, as a sub kingdom. He declares himself a duke there and runs the thing as if it's an independent kingdom. And as a consequence of that, when the Crusaders are dealing with Venice in terms of the contract there, Zara, whom the Venetians wanted the Crusaders to take, was in fact in Hungarian hands. Now let me translate this. That means it was actually in the hands of a power that not only was Christian, but under Bella iii, signed for the Crusade. Can you wrap your mind around this? So could you please take Zara, which is a Christian crusading city, you Crusaders, could you conquer a crusading city?

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (45:51)

That's the Venetian, though, you know, the Venetians will do anything provided that it.

Professor Florin Curta (45:56)

And as you know, as you know, the. The inhabitants of the city, basically, you know, lower crosses on the walls and say, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (46:05)

I mean, this is the, the complexities that we see in these particular Crusades, they're just, it's just nonsense, this entire thing.

Professor Florin Curta (46:13)

Well, it may, it may have been nonsense from the beauty of the hindsight, but in, at the time, it made a lot of sense because actually the Crusade could continue. Continue based on that. As you probably know, Innocent III blasted the Crusaders excommunicating them, then removed the excommunication, but did not remove the excommunication for the Crusaders, but not for the Venetians. So the Crusaders arrived next to Constantinople, being transported on the ships of excommunicated people.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (46:41)

Well, you know, and they, they stole the lion that's in St. Mark's Square, didn't they? More than that.

Professor Florin Curta (46:49)

This way, there's an account of actually how much they stole from that city. But Zara itself, for historians, is actually an event that highlights the wrong path that the Fourth Crusade took or would take eventually, but actually on a local basis did not have much of an impact. The city had changed hands many times and it will do so into the 14th century as well. Well, Venice is very interested in controlling the entire Adriatic coast. And by 1320, so early 14th century, it does. So it's only during the war with the Second Angevin king of Hungary, Louis I, that long war which was won by Hungary, that Venice relinquished some of the cities there. And so it's a brief intermezzo, should I say, immediately after the, you know, as you probably know, at the end of death and the end of Louis I's reign, 1370 had two daughters, but no male heir. So we have a struggle for power inside Hungary, of which, of course, Venice took advantage to reinstall the domination on Dalmatian coast. Really the only threat to that Venetian, almost constant Venetian claim to the Dalmatian coast comes from the Ottoman Empire and the long wars that Venice actually waged against the Turks. But well into early modern period, the cities, each one of them remained under Venetian influence.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (48:24)

Yeah, because this is a really interesting point in terms of what ends up happening with Dalmatia, etc. Because really, 13th century, this is an area that is quite closely under Hungarian control. I mean, to the point where when the Mongols attack Hungary, Bell IV flees to Germany.

Professor Florin Curta (48:44)

Yeah, correct. Yeah.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (48:45)

And, and so, you know, that's, that's how Hungarian we're talking about. And by the time you hit the 14th century, by all intents and purposes, I would say that it's, it's really much more Venetian in character at the

Professor Florin Curta (48:57)

time, the interior of the country, Croatia proper actually is fragmented. In other words, the crisis of power. There are two moments of crisis in Hungary, of which which local factors in Croatia took advantage. One is at the end of the Arpadian dynasty, shortly before and after 1300s, right before the first Angevin King Charles I, Robert was proclaimed, was recognized king. A long war with the magnates in Hungary. Local factors in Croatia took advantage of that. Okay, and the second one is the death of Louis I. So towards the end of the another 100 years later, okay, towards less than 100 years, 1370, when again the local factors took advantage of the absence of a strong central power to impose its rule over this sub kingdom of Croatia. That resulted in the number of noble families exercising control almost autonomously, if not independently, in certain areas. For example, the Babonic family in Slavonia, close to the Hungarian border. The Frankopan in the northern Croatia Liburnia and the Kvarner area there. The Kasich, probably the most prominent of all families, were for all practical purposes the rulers of the Omish, which had even a number of castles. The most important one was Mirabela, right at the mouth of Neredva, and became almost like not just rulers of the area. There were pirates in the area and other they were independent towards Venice as well. Right. And the number of other families that establish rule either next to the coast, like the Kai, or in interior near Bribir. Right. So what we see in the late Middle ages, specifically last quarter of the 14th century and the 15th century, as the Ottomans are moving in, the area here is not necessarily controlled, or not as much controlled by the Hungarians anymore as it's controlled by the local. Those are the circumstances in which a sense of Croatian separateness identity is formed on the basis of this independent attitude of the Croatian nobleman. It's responsible for the laws you mentioned earlier on, for the sense, which is, as far as we can tell, a myth by now, that at the time of the incorporation of Croatia into the Hungarian Kingdom, it had been given a number of oaths being taken, had been given a number of privileges. From the very beginning. The privileges existed, no doubt, but they are attested only much, much later time. It seems to be a projection back in time to justify the developments in the late Middle Ages.

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Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (53:26)

Can we talk a little bit just to sort of wrap up about the 15th century and this conflict between the Sicilian Angevins and one of my most hated Holy Roman emperors, Sigismund, Charles's worst son, which is saying something thing, but because there is also, you know, I would, I would argue that, you know, part of this there is a kind of independent Croatian ness. You know, we do sort of see the Croatians going back and forth because there's a sort of the so called Angevins in Sicily who are saying, well, we're, we're making a play for it and initially the Dalmatians side with the Angevins and then say, oh, never mind, maybe sisters, but, but there's a lot of going back and forth, right?

Professor Florin Curta (54:07)

Yeah, there were so they were so especially the lords of bribe that actually accompanied Charles I, the first Angevin to rule over Hungary to the central lands of Hungary. Indeed, I would say that not all Croatians, but some of the Croatian noble families were the earliest allies that Charles I had in Hungary for his rule. Okay, now forward in time. As you said at the time of Sigismund of Luxembourg, I would say that probably the, the sturdiest supporters that he had in the area were the lords in Slavonia because it was close to the lands that he himself had. There's something here that needs to be factored in. Again after the death of Louis I, let's put it this way, okay. After the death of Louis I, who had a very strong hand in this, and as I mentioned to you, had defeated Venice in the area. So they established a very strong firm rule, Hungarian rule in the area here. And because he became king of Poland as well, as you know, that transformed this polity into a very large personal union, but still in a very large polity. Right. By that I mean, you know, I'm not saying that developments in Dansk influenced those in Split, but that's basically the axis of power that we are talking about here after that. Right. Especially under Sigismund of Luxembourg. A particular area, as you know, Sigismund was a Holy Roman Emperor as well. A particular area that concerns him more than anything else is that of the Czech lands. We talk about them earlier on. In this particular case, because of the Hussite wars against the Hussites, he proclaims a number of crusades. So his attention is drawn into that. That's a reason for which Croatia and Croatian noblemen actually developed a very strong sense of ident. That's also the reason for which a number of cities on Dalmatian coast fall back onto the Venetian control. So I'm not sure the Angevins did anything here. I would say that probably by virtue of pushing their claims, real claims, in the case of Charles, claims that were never fulfilled, properly speaking, with later rulers of the Angevins in Hungary. They provided a point of entry for this particular reason of the Croatian nobility, which really has no parallel in any other part of Hungary. There has been some very interesting studies done by comparing, let's say, developments in Croatia 1400s-1450s, let's put it this way, right. To developments in Transylvania, the eastern part of the Hungarian kingdom. Okay. Needless to say, this is the era of John Hunyadi and, you know, magnates in Transylvania supporting him or not supporting him, whatever. But there is nothing anywhere in Hungary that will actually match the very strong sense of local identity and very powerful clans that we have in Croatia, properly speaking, the Kai and the Ba Bonici probably being the most prominent among them.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (57:12)

Well, I don't think that that's surprising when we consider all of this. I mean, by the time we've got to the 15th century, we have have hundreds and hundreds of years worth of history where things are just different in Croatia. It's just not the same story that we hear in other parts of Europe. I mean, even in other parts of Slavonic speaking Europe, even in other parts of Central Europe, just above it, it's a really different political system that relies on really different, different sets of alliances. I just do think it's truly unique in that.

Professor Florin Curta (57:49)

Yeah, I think it's because of its position at the intersection. We talked about this earlier on, for much earlier times. It's intersectional great powers, certainly not to the same extent, both in terms of numbers and in terms of historical phenomenon. But the area of the Romanian principalities, Valencia and Moldiva, is also at the intersection of great powers. We're talking about the phenomenon of the late Middle ages and early modern period well into the 18th century century. And in a way, it's very interesting how the two work the same way. A lot of people have asked, why did the Ottomans stop the push in Bosnia? Of course, they befitted the Croatian army of Lybaba and killed almost the entire aristocracy. That was a myth of the battle as being significant for the later Croatian nationalism. But there was no real attempt by the Ottomans to conquer this area, at least for a decade, maybe three, on both sides of the year 1500s. You could make the case they could have done so. After all, they brought Hungary down to its knees, conquered the country, destroyed the kingdom and transformed two thirds of the country into a pashalik. Why didn't they do it for Croatia? The easiest way to respond this is because before they could figure out what to do, the habsbus got into to, right?

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (59:10)

But I think so is the Habsburgs.

Professor Florin Curta (59:13)

I think there's a peril here. That's why I mentioned Malavia and Valencia. The cost of keeping Croatia under control, I'm talking about the Ottomans, would have been enormous. In other words, even from Istanbul, from Constantinople, right. People realize that that corner there at the intersection of interests of great powers would be very difficult and costly because of that to defend. So it's better to actually keep it like a gray zone, right? You raid it every now and then, you actually go, maybe have an occupation longer, a year or two or something like that. But you're never going to implement a pasha leu with government. It's going to cost a fortune. And you know, the advantages are not obvious. On the contrary, Dalmatia, properly speaking, was a bastion in a to a sense of the word, defended by the mountains on one side and by that formidable sea power of any on the other. So, you know, in Croatia, probably speaking, you're not going to fight only one power, say the Habsburgs, as you know, from 1500 onwards, especially after the demise of Hungary, the two powers, the Habsburgs and the Ottomans, are at each other's throat well into the 18th century, you know, subway and whatnot. But in the area we're talking about here, the Ottomans have a second enemy, Venice. And, and this is A different kind of warfare. You're not waging on land. You need a fleet, which is another normal cost. The Ottoman Empire around 1500 is definitely under. Suleiman the Magnificent has extraordinary power. So the questions I ask you, why didn't they push it? It's quite an interesting one from a historical point of, point of view. And the explanation, as I said, I think is in the geopolitical configuration in the area from the early Middle Ages well into the, the early modern period.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (61:00)

Florin, I think we have to stop here, which is so difficult to do. But also I think that we've done a fairly all right job of covering, you know, almost a thousand years of history in an hour. And it's, it's some of the more interesting history I think that we can find in the Middle Ages. Is there anything else that, that we've missed that you'd really like to cover before we go?

Professor Florin Curta (61:22)

Oh, I don't think so. I want to say that, you know, we talk a lot about politics, but there is a very interesting culture history here. Maybe your audience would like to know that one of these scripts, manuscript scripts, right, developed in the monastery of Monte Cassino in Italy, is best represented by manuscripts from Croatia. I'm talking about Beneventus in existence in the 11th and 12th century with some absolutely gorgeous illuminations, some of the most wonderful manuscripts, scripts ever written in the Latin in the western part of the church in the high Middle Ages. So it's a, it's not just a matter. And needless to say, there's a fascinating chapter of the history of architecture, specifically for the Romanesque art here with such phenomenal churches as the one of Saint Chrysogonos. In Zadar we talk about the city and the cathedral.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (62:19)

I just want to make a plug for the concept of Zadar, which is a little unsung. I think people should. If you're interested in medieval history, Zodar is, is really one to go check out that people just don't for some reason, so. Well, Floren, thank you so much. It's been such a wonderful delight to speak to you today.

Professor Florin Curta (62:39)

Thank you.

Dr. Eleanor Jaunega (62:45)

Thanks to Professor Curta and to you you for listening to Gone Medieval from history hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary on the trials of Joan of Arc and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow God Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family. That you've gone medieval. Until next time.

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