Medieval Beauty Standards with Kate Lister

Summary

Gone Medieval: Episode Summary – "Medieval Beauty Standards with Kate Lister"

Release Date: August 5, 2025

Host/Author: History Hit

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of Gone Medieval, hosted by Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and featuring expert guest Dr. Kate Lister, the discussion delves deep into the intricate and often paradoxical beauty standards of medieval Europe. The conversation unpacks how medieval perceptions of beauty were intertwined with societal norms, moral values, and cultural influences, drawing parallels and contrasts with contemporary beauty ideals.

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Perceptions of Beauty in Medieval Europe

Dr. Kate Lister opens the discussion by challenging the modern assumption that a universal standard of beauty has always existed. She highlights how historical fiction and modern media have romanticized medieval figures, often portraying them with features akin to contemporary celebrities like Katherine Hepburn or Cate Blanchett. However, actual medieval beauty standards were markedly different.

“Medieval Europeans had vastly different ideas of what exactly was hot, to the point that when I share images of beautiful women from actual medieval manuscripts online, I almost always immediately get asked, why is she pregnant and balding?” (02:02)

Women's Beauty Standards

The conversation explores the medieval ideal of beauty, emphasizing attributes such as clear skin and a healthy appearance. Dr. Lister explains that while some constants like health were universally appreciated, specific beauty traits fluctuated over centuries and regions.

“Clear skin. I have yet to find anybody going, actually, we kind of want you to it up a bit. That doesn't happen.” (04:10)

They discuss literary examples from The Canterbury Tales, contrasting characters like Alison, who embodies a more adorned and sexually provocative image, with the Knight’s idealized, natural beauty. This duality reflects the societal tension between idealizing beauty and moral expectations.

“Alison gets her eyebrows mentioned. You cannot not pluck your eyebrows or you’re a bad woman.” (12:45)

Moral Implications of Beauty

Dr. Lister delves into the moral perceptions tied to beauty, illustrating how beauty was often linked to righteousness and spiritual purity. This association created a complex dynamic where beauty was both celebrated and scrutinized.

“Medieval people saw beauty as a reflection of spiritual perfection. If you’re beautiful, you’re close to God.” (08:15)

The episode highlights how deviations from beauty norms were morally judged, leading to societal exclusion or stigmatization, especially for women who did not conform to expected standards.

Men's Beauty Standards

Transitioning to male beauty standards, Dr. Lister outlines the medieval ideal for men, which favored a muscular yet robust physique, cleanliness, and fashionable attire. Unlike contemporary times, where detailed compliments on male physiques are common, medieval men’s attractiveness was assessed more subtly.

“Medieval men do not skip leg day. They are expected to be clean, with well-maintained hair and teeth.” (28:23)

The discussion includes the peculiar fashion trends of the medieval period, such as the adoption of tights and elaborate footwear, which were both admired and criticized by religious authorities, especially during tumultuous times like the Black Death.

Skincare Practices

Skincare in the medieval era was both an art and a necessity, reflecting the obsession with maintaining a pale complexion among the affluent. Dr. Lister shares historical skincare routines inspired by figures like Hildegard von Bingen, showcasing the use of natural ingredients like barley water and honey.

“Medieval skincare involved recipes for barley toners and honey moisturizers, accessible to most women.” (32:14)

She also touches upon the extreme measures taken for skin whitening, such as the use of quicklime, highlighting the lengths to which individuals would go to adhere to beauty standards.

Racial Diversity and Beauty

Challenging the misconception that medieval Europe was racially homogenous, Dr. Lister points out the multicultural interactions evident in art and literature. Paintings like Hieronymous Bosch’s The Garden of Earthly Delights depict people of various races as attractive, underscoring the era's diversity.

“Medieval Europe was much more multicultural and diverse than we give them credit for, with African individuals often portrayed as beautiful and integral to artwork.” (43:10)

Ugliness and Moral Judgment

The episode does not shy away from the darker aspects of medieval beauty standards, where ugliness was often morally equated with evil. Diseases like leprosy were stigmatized, and disfigurement was frequently interpreted as a sign of inherent sinfulness.

“Ugliness was associated with evil, giving medieval society carte blanche to ostracize those with physical deformities.” (38:32)

Body Shape and Standards

Medieval beauty also placed emphasis on specific body shapes. For women, the ideal included small breasts paired with a voluptuous waist and hips, representing both attractiveness and fertility.

“The medieval ideal for women was a pear-shaped body with tiny breasts and a pot belly, signifying both beauty and prosperity.” (40:17)

For men, while muscularity was appreciated, there was also an acceptance of a bit of belly, symbolizing abundance and stability.

Comparison to Modern Beauty Standards

Dr. Lister draws parallels between medieval and modern beauty standards, noting the enduring pressure on women to conform to specific aesthetic ideals. She highlights how both eras impose moral judgments based on physical appearance, albeit in different contexts.

“Modern beauty standards are remarkably similar to medieval ones in how they link physical appearance to moral and social worth.” (42:17)

Concluding Insights

The episode concludes by reflecting on how deeply ingrained beauty standards are in shaping societal values and personal identities. Dr. Lister emphasizes the importance of understanding historical beauty norms to better comprehend current perceptions and pressures.

“Beauty standards in the medieval period were not just about appearance but were a reflection of deeper societal and moral values.” (42:43)

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Key Takeaways

1. Historical Context: Medieval beauty standards were deeply intertwined with societal norms, spiritual beliefs, and moral values, much like today.

2. Women's Standards: Emphasis on clear skin, health, and specific body shapes, coupled with moral expectations of purity and innocence.

3. Men's Standards: Preference for muscular yet robust physiques, cleanliness, and fashionable attire, reflecting abundance and stability.

4. Skincare Practices: Natural ingredients like barley and honey were prevalent, with extreme measures taken for skin whitening among the affluent.

5. Racial Diversity: Medieval Europe was more racially diverse than often portrayed, with various races depicted as attractive in art and literature.

6. Moral Implications: Physical beauty was linked to moral and spiritual worth, while ugliness was stigmatized as a sign of evil.

7. Parallels to Modern Standards: Similar pressures and moral judgments based on physical appearance persist from medieval times to the present.

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Notable Quotes

• “Medieval Europeans had vastly different ideas of what exactly was hot, to the point that when I share images of beautiful women from actual medieval manuscripts online, I almost always immediately get asked, why is she pregnant and balding?” – Dr. Kate Lister (02:02)

• “Clear skin. I have yet to find anybody going, actually, we kind of want you to it up a bit. That doesn't happen.” – [Unnamed Speaker] (04:10)

• “Beauty standards in the medieval period were not just about appearance but were a reflection of deeper societal and moral values.” – Dr. Kate Lister (42:43)

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Conclusion

This episode of Gone Medieval offers a nuanced exploration of medieval beauty standards, revealing how physical appearance was a complex interplay of health, morality, and social status. By examining historical texts, art, and cultural practices, Dr. Kate Lister provides listeners with a deeper understanding of how beauty norms have evolved and persisted through the ages, drawing insightful comparisons to our modern-day standards.

For those intrigued by the intricate world of medieval women, additional episodes on topics such as medieval women writers and medieval sex are highly recommended. Subscribe to Gone Medieval on Spotify or your preferred podcast platform to continue your journey into the captivating history of the Middle Ages.

Transcript

[Matt Lewis]

Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.

[Matt Lewis]

Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

If you would like to listen to.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit.

[Matt Lewis]

With the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Documentaries, such as my new series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans, or my.

[Matt Lewis]

Recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

There's a new release to enjoy every week.

[Matt Lewis]

Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show Notes for this episode, you can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaunega and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's easy to think that there's some.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Kind of natural standard of beauty that humans all hold and have always held. This is understandable because when we are thinking about the past and what people must have looked like, a lot of times what we are thinking about are movies that take place in the past. So when we imagine, say, Eleanor of Aquitaine in the past, we get images of noted babe Katharine Hepburn or ex model Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc, or maybe even the divine Cate Blanchett as the legendary Maid Marian. Our historical fiction is full of the most beautiful women it is possible to cast, which makes perfect sense. But the thing is, medieval Europeans had vastly different ideas of what exactly was hot, to the point that when I share images of beautiful women from actual medieval manuscripts online, I almost always immediately get asked, why is she pregnant and balding? I was allowed out of the gone medieval dungeon to stop by our sister podcast Betwixt the Sheets to chat with my wonderful friend and inimitable colleague Dr. Kate Lister. All about medieval beauty standards as per usual. Because it's me and Kate, the language can get a little saucy, so you might want to have a listen before deciding whether Younger listeners are ready to learn all about the wonderful world of medieval beauty.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We are here to talk about medieval beauty standards.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, there's a one. I think it's kind of annoying though when you talk about medieval beauty standards is it's kind of like, yes, all right, I'm going to talk about medieval things because you can't stop me.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yep.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No, can't stop, Won't stop.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Nope.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

But fundamentally, these standards within Europe and you know, more particularly kind of in the Mediterranean, literal are pretty much ossified for a really long time. So, you know. Yeah, I could be talking about, I don't know, France in the 1300s, but it's also kind of true of like Morocco in like the town 10th century.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, there are some consistent things. What I'm learning, having done this little miniseries and doing little time traveling trips to different places is there are some constants that like wherever you go, that was an attractive thing. Clear skin. I have yet to find anybody going, actually, we kind of want you to it up a bit. That doesn't happen. No, healthy. That's like a really big one with maybe a few detours. Remember heroin chic in the 90s? Oh yeah, remember that one?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, it's back, baby. Cuz the 90s are back.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So no, keep it away.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No, I want my high waisted shoes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I was also thinking like, not only there are some constants of like healthy young. That's another one. Again, I have yet to find anyone that thinks as you get older and older you get more attractive. That doesn't happen. But even if we just think about our lifetimes, how much beauty trends come and go like in the 90s, right. And I was thinking, because I know it's going to come and torture. And I was making a mental list of beauty fads that have come and gone in our lifetime. Number one, concealer lips. Do you remember them? Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And then with like the dark liner around. Yes. That showgirls liner, girl. That showgirls liner.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Super low rise jeans, girl.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

What a horrible time to live through my 20s.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You had to shave to put those on.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

There was just, you know, I've emerged into the world. This is what. And they were like, put these on. Oh, by the way, your fly is like 2 inches long. I mean it's just like it was kind of like a notion at that point.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Thong hanging out the back. So we don't do any. And like the height of sophistication on the red carpet was jeans and a nice top.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Okay. Do you remember though, at the same time, the jeans under the dress thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Hideous.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, no. Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, yeah. But it just threw up.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But my point is, is like, look how much these things come and go in within a few years. So even though things are constant, when it comes to beauty standards, there must have been things coming in and things going out, because the medieval period, as I've learned from you, is a thousand years of history.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Absolutely. And so there are things that we. We don't necessarily know about what's going on at certain periods of time, so. Like the early Middle Ages, when we have fewer sources for them, because 1500 years is a really long time ago, you know, and it's hard. It's hard to get sources for that. And also, culturally, they just kind of don't write things down in terms of what descriptions are. So we don't know that much about what's going on in, say, the year 650, because no one was like, hey, she is really hot and she looks like this. The thing that they'll do is they'll write down that someone is really beautiful.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And you're, like, helpful. Thanks. You know, and. And. And that isn't really expanded upon. And this is super common, though, because even if you go back to, for example, the ancient Greeks, and they're like, helen of Troy, you' like, oh, yeah, okay, the most beautiful woman on Earth. And they're like, she's blonde. And they're like, anything else? They're like, absolutely not. That's just. That's. That's all it takes, baby. And, you know, even within that, when you're looking at classical women that are portrayed as beautiful, you know, again, like, from things like the Trojan wars, you'll have, like, polycainer, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, she's not. Not too tall.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And that's. Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And, like, it's not giving you much.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To work with, is it?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

There's absolutely nothing. So, you know, this isn't a particularly medieval thing. And so, you know, even when we are looking at ancient standards of beauty, we gotta go look at, like, statues. Right. You know what you need to go find, like, Aphrodite bathing and things like that. And, you know, these are pretty uniform. And, you know, medieval people saw those statues, right. Those are. Those are things that they saw with their eyes because it wasn't like they were underground or something. So. So, you know, that must have persisted in some places. But what we definitely know about early medieval beauty standards is they're like, to be beautiful is kind of like, to be righteous.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm sensing that as developing, as a theme, you know, this sort of pretty privilege, but on an epic scale of, like, if you're beautiful, then you're just a good person.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And it's like, you have all this time, like, where this is a legitimate cause for philosophical debate. So people are like, why is it that the chick I really want to bang is also so holy and good? And they're like, well, it's because. It's because God created the world, right? God created nature. And, you know, God created the Garden of Eden. He created everything that exists. And when we were still in the Garden of Eden, you know, we were. We were close by God. We were just, like, in his image.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And, you know, then things went south. You know, Eve ate the pomegranate or the apple or whatever it is you want it to be. We got kicked out. Bada bing, bada boom. But naturally, things are close to God because God made the physical world. So therefore, things that naturally are beautiful are close to God. And then that's how you kind of get spiritual perfection.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That is some mental gymnastics, isn't it? That is a hell of a way of saying we always think that the people we want to shag are amazing.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And they are for a bit. I've never, ever wanted to shag some man who was terrible. No, that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You learn that later.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, Put that on record. Always.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right, right. That's what happens later. And you realize, damn it, the pretty man did it again. Curses the medieval people. Now, this is. This has thrown a bit of a conundrum my way, because what I know from you and your work is that they didn't like pretty women. Very.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Okay, look. So you could be more than one thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

You can be massively horny and also angry about it. Like, since time in a memorial, men have been mad that chicks are pretty.

[Unnamed Speaker]

There we go.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And then it goes back to Eve in, like, these theological conceptions because, like, one of the things about Eve and pictures that you see of Eve, absolute stone cold batty. Right? Like, just a dime piece, like, always. Always upholding the beauty standards at the time. Because, of course she does, because she's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

In the Garden of Eden and they have makeup counters.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yes. Just picking the lip gloss off of the trees. So it's. But it is like, one of these things where, of course, she's a spiritual perfection at the time. And then also, this is, you know, the opportunity that you have to paint a hot, naked chicken. So, like, let us not, you know, Forget that. There are ways to just kind of like have some fun with this. Right. So she is always going to be portrayed as like really, really beautiful. But she's also the vector for which sin came into the world.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

You know, she's also the reason why we have death. She's, you know, she's the cause of original sin. So very particularly a hot chick did all this.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. You wouldn't have had a 5 doing this, would you?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No. Absolutely no. Mids. It's just like this is, this is hot chick behavior.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This is like this is hot chick.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. Like, you know, and you know, all her friends are like, honestly, girl work, you know, like, oh, she's so dramatic. She is the drama, etc. But I mean fundamentally this also is linked to the fact that the beauty then becomes sexual. Yeah. Because part of the fall of man isn't just that Adam and Eve realized they're naked. Right. It's that they realize they're naked and they're turned on by it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So because you know, like they just didn't know to be turned on before. So like this being attracted, that's kind of like the next step. That's, that's the issue. Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And you get this weird cognitive distance that arrives. It's not just the medieval period that you see this is that they want women to be beautiful but. But not aware that they're beautiful because then that's bad. They want them to be sexually attractive but not too much. And they can't flaunt that at any point. They need to be unbelievably beautiful, but also innocent. What we would now call the no makeup, makeup look. Just completely natural, like long tresses of blonde hair, not made up. I think a really good example of that is in the Canterbury Tales when you've got. So you've got the Miller's Tale and he describes this 18 year old girl called Alison.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Alison. They're all Alison.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They're all so many. Alison.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's like Chaucen, pick another name. And she is kind of slutty and she's like really heavily made up. And he really goes to town describing her slow eyebrows and her hair's pulled back and she's got loads of pleats on her and stuff. And then there's the Knight's Tale where another girl is described and she is described as also very beautiful. But it's a very different type of, of beauty. It's not made up. It's just like not like doves and bluebirds. Follow her around singing songs. And she literally skips through gardens singing, doesn't she?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. And I mean, this is what medieval people would tell you is true beauty. So it is 100% that you're just supposed to be. Just be beautiful. Just be. There is an ossified beauty archetype. And by the way, if you don't live up to this, we think you're sinful and evil. But I swear to God, girl, if you pluck your eyebrows. Trouble.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No. Then you're a bad woman.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Which also, I think it's really funny because medieval people are constantly talking about, like, chicks, eyebrows, and how hot their eyebrows are. And I remember, like, a few years ago, do you remember when there was, like, the really, like, really heavy brows, There would be videos from men being like, no man has ever been attracted to eyebrows. I'm like, baby, actually, we got 100 years of history where men are like, oh, oh, you see the eyebrows on that one?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Trends do come and go. Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Allison in the Miller's Tale, she get her eyebrows get a mention.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And so eyebrows become this particular site of worry for men, obviously, because they're like. I go, I hope that her arch, they have to be arched and hopefully black, right? You're supposed to be blonde with black eyebrows. You know, that thing. That thing that exists without makeup, Right? Yeah, absolutely. And so this. There's a particular story about this where there's a guy who. He's very in love with his wife. And she was so beautiful and, like, wonderful, but she dies, you know, in the way that people do. So he pays this monk, who can have ecstatic visions to, like, go check in on his wife in the afterlife and tell him how he's doing. So monk takes money, has ecstatic vision, and comes back. It's like, yeah, your wife is in hell, and your wife is in hell. And demons are gnawing at her eyebrows and at her hairline because you thought she was beautiful, but actually she plucked her eyebrows and her hairline. And so now her ironic punishment in the afterlife is that demons gnaw the places that she used to pluck. And it's like, so. But your wife kind of sucked, actually. I think you'll find it. But it's like, not only is there this real pressure to have these specific eyebrows, but if you do anything about it, you're going to hell. And it's because makeup or any kind of intervention is seen as a form of trickery, right? Like, to the point where there are laws on the books. Like, here In London, where if you find out that a sex worker that you frequented was using makeup, that's fraud. And you can go ask for your money back.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wow.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I mean, granted, you're going to be left out of the stews, but.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes. Did anyone ever enforce that?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I mean, good luck. Right. You know, but. But it's on the books. Right. So, like, in theory, that's in there. And so the idea is like, well, this is false advertising. You're not really beautiful because.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So what, do you want me to come home and meet your mother? Jesus. Like, what do you mean? Like, it's. You're paying for a quick shag up against a wall.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I know. And it's just like, oh, my God. Like, I'm sorry. Like, were you writing love poetry to this woman? She does not care. Right. Like, this is a businesswoman, thank you very much. But It's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You're no 6 foot 2 either.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I know. I mean, like, to the point where, you know, when you have poor Allison in the Miller's Tale, they're like. And she thinks she's really hot, and I'm like. I mean, you're still kind of like, literarily wanking over her, like, really quite intensely as well. Yeah. And so it's sort of like you are making her into a figure of fun, but you still think she's hot. Yes, but she's the wrong kind of hot.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Don't we do that today? That's still a bind that women are in today. Point in case the Kardashians. I love to return to them again and again, always. But they occupy that same space of, like, they're judged for how they look, but they also influence how people look. We also hate them for what they do and how they're made up and artificial, but they're also adored for it. And they make them. And it becomes really weird and complex. And it's that same artifice that people in the medieval period got angry about.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Where the trouble here is that these people are aware.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And that. And that's a big part of it, as you mentioned. It's like, you're not supposed, you know, to quote One Direction. You don't know you're beautiful. Right. Like, that's the thing that you're supposed to be doing, is that you're just supposed to meet this standard and also be blithely unaware of all of society.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Am I really beautiful?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, wow. I didn't. I didn't notice that I look like every single statue in the church.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Like, Every painting I've ever seen. And also no one's ever mentioned this to me. Like in a society completely obsessed with the way that women look.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And if you can be unsexual as well, that's a help. Just going back against Canterbury Tales because Emily, the really beautiful one with the bluebirds, tweeted she wanted to be a virgin all her life. She wanted to be a priestess of someone or other, some virgin goddess. So like the idea as well that you're not even supposed to be sexual, you're just this beautiful Disney princess wandering around.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, like we see this for example in the pearl poem as well. So you know, in the pearl poem the like little girl dies and she's like 2 and then her dad sees her in heaven and she's like a 16 year old hottie.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Uncomfortable.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. And it's. And he's like, oh, isn't it great that she's so hot? And it's because, you know, she's kept the spiritual perfection because she was a virgin and she died and da da da. And she never did anything wrong. And so there's this idea that our souls, when they go to heaven and indeed like when we rise from the grave on judgment day, our bodies are going to be at the height of their powers. Like we're going to be, we're going to be as good as we are. And so hilariously, for women, this is like, yeah, 16, like you know, you're supposed to be a maiden, which means like you've achieved sexual maturity but you haven't had sex yet.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And for men it's middle age.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh for fuck's sake.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right? So like go look at, go look at any, you know, picture of the Last judgment and everyone, all the little naked souls getting up out of their graves. It's a bunch of baddies. And then like middle aged dudes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Do you want to be 16 again? What an awful idea that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh my God. It's like, have you ever spoken to a 16 year old girl?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Also never want to go through that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

You know, again, like it is horrifying.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That is not judgment day. Let me be 16 in my swamp witch era.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I mean, look, let me tell you also like, as you know, a noted elder millennial, we definitely lived through that with like Britney Spears.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

For example, where it was like, look at her. And then they would like parade her around and be like, say you're a virgin.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Say it, do it.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's like while they're like. And also take all your clothes off and please gyrate you know, and. And it was like, a really weird time to be alive where you're just like, huh, this thing of kind of simultaneously commodifying women who haven't had sex yet, but sexualizing them so it's like they can't be sexual, but you're going to be sexual at them and so.

[Unnamed Speaker]

All over them.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, exactly. And then, like, every woman who, like, notices that this is happening, it's, like, your fault for noticing. You're just supposed to be blithely unaware.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So this is kind of why they have this link of, if you're beautiful, you must be spiritually pure somehow, because the ideal beauty is somehow unaware and innocent. What the fu happens when you get older? You're only 16 for one year. That's all you get at being 16. You've got a long way to go after that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, luckily, you'll be a mommy soon, and then all your worries are over.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And then you don't need to be attracted to Then you don't need to.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Be attracted because now you're a mommy. Now you're a mommy. And, like. And this is kind of. Although, you know, obviously there are cases where this doesn't happen. So, you know, very famously, Eleanor of Aquitaine is incredibly hot. And everyone is like, stupid, sexy Eleanor of Aquitaine. Like, and they're so angry about it because, like, she's, like, really, really hot and doesn't behave like they want her to behave. I know there's constantly rumors swirling as a result. They're like, oh, she's shagging her uncle. You know, she's dead. And 200 years later, they're like, she was shagging Saladin. It's like, homie, how. Literally, how did that happen? You know, And. And, like, these are things that even the Victorians are repeating later. So there are women who continue to meet the beauty standard later, and when they enter the record, people are furious. They're like, no, you're not supposed to be doing that anymore because you're supposed to kind of, like, transcend. You're supposed to get into motherhood, and then this is going to be, like, a moot point. And, you know, then people will say, you were an excellent wife. You were an excellent mother. But still, having said that, it's like medieval literary tradition is absolutely full of people's really hot wives who are, like, cuckolding them or not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wife of bath, wife about, is she hot? I'm just. She has a very detailed description. She's another Allison. Yeah, she's 40. All of 40 years old and. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Can you imagine?

[Unnamed Speaker]

And she. She's got a gap between her tooth. I remember that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

She is slightly red in the face, which is good. Which. That's good.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So. So what you want is you want white skin but rosy cheeks. And oftentimes in literary sources, it's referred to as a complexion of snow and roses.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Which is very.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay. Yeah. So she's got that. The gap tooth. I remember that. That she's got a gap between her teeth. I can't remember what her eyebrows were like. Is she a sexy figure? She talks about sex all the time.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's really difficult to say. Because she's sexualized. Yeah, certainly. And I think that it's very difficult to not then kind of, like, put her in sexy situations as a result. But she's kind of representing people's worry about widows more particularly, even though, you know, she's a wife at this particular. This point in her life. But this idea that, you know, older women are sexually aware of what they want. They're experienced and they have money.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So they can kind of pick and choose what they want to do. They can marry men for whatever reason they wish to or not. You know, so they. Then you get into this kind of, like, limbo where there's a specific worry about widows, where it's like, oh, these widows are out here being hot. And, you know, like, they are out of control. You know, they don't have fathers to shove them in one way or another, or brothers. You know, like, maybe your sons can be like, mom, knock it off. But, you know, they're. They're just gonna do what they do. So there is also this kind of, like, moral gray area that they fall into.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay, all right, that's. That's interesting. But not. They're not regarded as beautiful in the same way as.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No, I mean, because, like, to be young is to be beautiful within a lot of these things. I mean, if you look at the Decameron, for example, there's just endless stories of cuckolding. It's just like that's. That's all there is. And, you know, also stories of, like, really beautiful women who are kind of younger. So, you know, for example, you got the story of. It's the. It's the king of Babylon, which is Egypt. Like, do not look. I can't explain it to you. And she's really hot and is supposed to get married off to the king of the Algarve and get set on a boat. And, like, the boat. Shipwrecks and then there's like a series of stories where every man who comes into contact with her is like, oh God, like, you know, you know, talk on the floor. It becomes a cartoon wolf and they like are all killing each other and kidnapping her. And then like the minute you show her a dick, she's like, oh, well, I guess this is fine, you know, and it's like, it's absolutely incredible, right? And so she kind of gets passed like from hand to hand through like, I think eight different dudes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Wow.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And then like eventually finds her way home to her father and makes up this great story about how she was actually the whole time, like, do not worry, dad, virginity intact. Because I was hanging out at the nunnery of St Crescent in the hole.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of course you were.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, great, great little euphemism there. And you know, like, we are Muslim, but you know, these Christians safeguarded me in any way I can marry the prince of the Algarve when he's like, you sure can. And this is a story of a woman who's kind of like in her teens to 20s and they're like, she maintains her beauty and her sexuality all throughout these subsequent changes of sexual partners and to the point where she's like married off with all honors in the end. And it's kind of like a happily ever after. So what we learn is that there are these sort of conceits where it's like, oh, you're supposed to be holy. In order to be beautiful, you've got to be a 16 year old. You need to be a virgin. In theory. In practice, if we're seeing what people actually do and what's going on with their lives, there's a lot more room for interpretation about where beauty lies and whether or not, you know, sexual women are indeed sexy. Because in this case, yes, absolutely.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just 49.99 when you switch to Boost Mobile. We pulled so many all nighters to give you this deal and hey, stop messing with the mic.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I'm just helping us catch people's attention. This is a great deal.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Exactly. So it doesn't need all that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Fine.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Get the new iPhone 16e available at Apple Store locations and the Apple Store online.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options and free training. They also Provide paid time off off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

I feel like we should finish up by talking about men being attractive because this conversation always focuses on women because they're the ones that have had the pressure put on them to look a certain way. But men feel the pressure too. What was a medieval male hottie?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, well, so the medieval male hottie, as a general rule of thumb, a little bit muscular, but a little bit of meat on the bones. You know, they go for like, ooh, there's food in the house. Right? You know, like, that's hot. So if you got like a little bit of a belly that, like, that's, that's no problem. Do not worry about that. There is like a lot of, like, men kind of like exercising to exercise and like, you know, to maintain their figure. So it's like quite cute. Like there is. Do you even lift, bro? In the medieval period. But they're just like picking up big rocks. Like, it's a lot more like a strongman competition. That's very amazing. So they'll be like exercise regimens and things like that. The other big one is like being.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Clean, clean, clean, constant.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, everybody likes it when you're clean. So there's like rather a lot of that. You gotta like, comb your hair, brush your teeth. Yeah, all of those things don't stink. Yeah, exactly. So that, you know, there's rather a lot of that. And then dress is a big one. Yeah. So one big difference, I think, between now and with medieval men is medieval men be showing it off. Right. Like, it becomes a huge issue in the 14th century when the Black Death is going on. Because a lot of men are like, look, if I'm gonna die tomorrow, I'm wearing hoes. Right? And they're like, they got it out. Like, they're like wearing super, super pointy shoes. And the bishops in England are furious and they're writing about this. They're like, God is punishing us with the Black Death because these men are wearing tights and, and like everything that we see has them, like, wearing tights. And then. But then there's kind of like this. These equivalent of women shouldn't wear makeup is you shouldn't go too crazy on the clothes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So like, if your tights are party colored. So like they are green and purple or something like that. I mean, well, probably not purple. Only kings can wear purple. But I don't know, green and Red. Right. Like, that is like really pushing the butt. That's too much. And it's like, everyone agrees it's sexy, but it's like gauche.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I've noticed that there's a lot of discussion around men's legs. That's. Oh yeah, that's one thing. You don't say that as much. It'd be a bit weird if you did say that nice legs on a guy. Like, it wouldn't be like, you know, institutional behavior. But like, you just don't say that about them. Today.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

People go, I mean, I suppose. But like, like medieval men do not skip leg day. Okay. So. Yeah. And because they're wearing tights and things. Right. And so it's, it's one of these things that's interesting with clothes theory where it's kind of like a chicken or the egg situation is like, dude, we find legs sexy. And so men were wearing tights or were men, you know, like, did the finding men's legs sexy come out of the wearing tights thing?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, so.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And I mean, then especially in the later medieval period and into the early modern period, there are a Cod piece on that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes. Yeah. That was a weird moment in fashion history, that one. You know, remember the first time I saw a COD piece, I thought it would just be like, like a cup that, you know, rugby players wear. It's a full on penis. You can hang things off that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Absolutely. And you know, it goes to show that medieval people in early modern people are a lot prudish than we are. They're just like, I know you're looking at it, so I'm gonna make it look like that. That's, that's what's going on, you know, and so there's a lot, a lot more comfort around the genital area. But then there are kind of, I guess some surprising things that medieval people do. Like bald men are kind of sexy, for example. It's because they're very manly, they're very masculine. Because the idea is they are so hot and dry, which makes them very masculine that their hair is burnt off. So it's like a humorally. There's kind of like nothing wrong with being bald. Like, unless you're bald because you're old. Like, it's, it's like a young bald guy thing. It's like, you know, if you've got the Jason Statham, Jason Statham, call me.

[Unnamed Speaker]

If you want to sponsor this.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

It's fine. It'll be fine. So, you know, like this, this is the thing that universally is kind of like, agreed is pretty hot. But it's interestingly, like, scientific. You know, now when, like, weirdo evo psychologists will be like, well, we've always found exactly the same thing attractive about women, which is hourglasses. And I'm like, no, dude. Like, absolutely not. No, it was pear shapes for Europeans anyway. Like, they were like, well, scientifically, bald men are hot. Because scientifically, the humors. And it means basically exactly the same thing as evo psychologists going off on one now. So, you know, like, you can treat it with as much respect. Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So if you're a medieval person and you want a. You want a decent skincare routine, very important, still important to everybody today. Cleanse, tone, moisturize. But you didn't have that so much if you're in a medieval person. What would be your go to routine?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, we actually have recipes and routines that are left to us from a couple of different sources, one of which is our girl, Hildegard von Bingen.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I like her.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

She was a skincare girly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I love that. Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Like, she leaves us, like, toner recipes. She's like, girl, this is how you make barley water. Which to me was always kind of just like a Mary Poppins, the musical reference. But it's like a toner thing. So, you know, in the way where we'll use kind of like colloidal oatmeal now, like, in order to, like, moisturize. So you can do the same thing with barley. So it should be like, this is what you do, girl. Take the barley, boil it up, put the water on your skin. It'll soften it and it will, you know, and this is something that's really available to most women.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I've seen Bali skincare scrubs and things available in Shop.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, Exactly. So that 100 existed at the time. We also have, like, if you have a little bit more money, a lot more skincare recipes that survive to us in the trotula. And so this is kind of like, you know, it starts out as an ob GYN manual, and then people are like. And also makeup tips, you know. So this has lots and lots of different recipes for all sorts of things. How to treat sunburn, good moisturizers to use after you're out in the sun, softer cleansers for your face. Because there is kind of some acknowledgement of the fact that your skin might get a little bit rough if you're just using sort of like the soap that you're using on the rest of your body. So they will be like, oh, you know, add Rose petals, add honey. There's rather a lot of adding honey to things in order to put it on your skin. There's also more extreme things. So, for example, there's rather a lot of stuff that is like, want to bleach your skin? Bleach your skin tonight, Queen Bleaching your skin.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And it's like, a big concern for medieval women because especially, like, within the Mediterranean and European context, pale skin is a really big beauty standard.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Pale skin, everyone seems to have been absolutely nuts for that until, like, the 1950s.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And essentially what it boils down to is that is a preference for rich ladies.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Because, like, if you're a peasant and you're out working in the field all the time, your skin's gonna get messed up because they don't have spf. Right. And they know the sun will burn you and they're like. Or whatever. So being tan is a sign that you were like, some poor peasant.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Who works outside. Right. Whereas being very, very pale is a sign that you've got the kind of money where you don't have a job outside.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right. So that's very attractive. And that's across the board. Like, you know, you see that as much in Arabic poetry about beautiful women as you do French poetry about the same thing. So that, as a result, creates a demand in skincare routines for skin whitening products, some of which look pretty horrible. Like, you'll see examples in the trot where they're like, yeah, put some quick lime in there, girl. And I'm like, do not put quick lime on your face.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

But it does kind of show us how there are some things that would absolutely work in terms of skincare, and then there are some where it's just like, you are so off piste right now, but it's to try to live up to this really difficult standard where, you know, most people are outside all the time and they want to be pale.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think that this could be one of the periods in history where actually to be skint means that you'd probably have the better beauty products because you couldn't afford lye or whatever the hell it was that you had to put on your face. You'd probably be better off with some barley and something you found in.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were. You're bang on there where that stuff is kind of universally available. It's gonna be more about, like, whether or not you've got the time to do it, because, like, they're not the ones who are attempting to make blonde hair dye. Yeah. Right. You know. Which you know exists. Absolutely. Like, they figured out ways to bleach your hair and that kind of a thing. But, you know, it's rough.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What about smelling good? Because one of the persistent myths about folk from the Middle Ages, as you are well aware, is that they were all dirty and that they all stunk and no one had any teeth.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, well, no. So 100, actually teeth is one of the big ones where medieval people probably had better teeth than we do now.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Talk about teeth a lot.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, they do. And it's like one of the things we have to keep in mind is that they don't really have access to sugar.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

In the way that we do now. So most of our sugar is now coming from, like, sugar cane and stuff like that. And it certainly existed in medieval Europe, but it's coming to you in much smaller amounts, and it comes from very far away, and it's mad expensive. So you're just not eating sugar in every single thing in the way that we are now, which is the stuff that makes your teeth go wild. Right. And they brush their teeth. So they've got toothbrushes, or they'll use kind of like little, like, licorice roots, things like that, in order to, like, brush the stuff. And to be fair, toothpaste didn't work until the 1950s until we invented fluoride. Whatever you were brushing your teeth with, it's like, well, I hope you're having fun. Like, it makes your breath smell nice, but that's all it does. So, honestly, if you compare the teeth of a medieval person with a person in the 1930s, probably the person in the medieval period is going to have better teeth because they have fewer things that are going to mess their teeth up.

[Matt Lewis]

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What about being ugly, then? Like, we've spoken a lot about being beautiful. Ugly seems to be another one of those consistent things like disfigurement. They must have had a fair bit of disfigurement wandering around in the Middle Ages.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, yeah. You know, you have issues, for example, like with leprosy, for example, is fairly endemic and common across Europe at the time, which can be pretty disfiguring. You Know if you come down with any diseases where you might end up with, like, pockmarks. We don't have smallpox or things like that yet. But, you know, if you've got, like, chickenpox or something like that, that can really mess you up. Or, you know, even if you just end up having acne. Yeah. You know, and your. Your skin gets scarred. These are all things that are going to count against you. And certainly it is a specific thing where ugliness will be associated with evil. Right. Like where if you're not hot, well, then you must be evil and then that give a reason why I'm allowed to kind of exclude you from society. So we see this in particular with people who have leprosy, because they will be like, well, they kind of were asking for it. Right. So there is this way of talking about people with leprosy as though they brought it on themselves because they were lustful, they were gluttonous, they are garrulous, they're just like shagging and fighting all the time, and that's how you end up with leprosy. So the idea is that they were sinful, which is why they've ended up ugly like this. And then that just seems mean. Yeah, it's really mean. And it just gives you carte blanche to just kind of be a bit of a. To people who are having a really tough time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's a cheap shot. Medieval people.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I know. Look, I like them very much, but I didn't say they were perfect.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They're not as bad as the Romans. They're hands down the maddest, most cruel. If something's not being killed, quite frankly, they're not having a good time. What about fat and thin in the medieval periods? Because that's something that fluctuates as well, where, like, body shape, fat ratio.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. So we want some fatness, like a.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Little bit of squish, don't they?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. So, like, for the body, standard for women remains pretty much ossified. And the thing that they are looking for is they want tiny little tits.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

The smallest boobs available. Right. Like the Cameron talks about, like, hot chicks, boobs. And they're like. They're small and hard, like ivory. Right. That's. So that's what they're looking for. But you want what they call a luscious little pot belly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I can do that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. So that's hot. That's really hot. And then like junk in the trunk. You got to be packing heat back there. Okay, so we're. We're looking for the pear shape done. And that's what they want. So it's kind of like. It wouldn't necessarily be, like, obese or anything, but they definitely want you to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Have flesh cushion for the push.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. And you know, again, this is one of these things where it's like, that means that there's, like, money. Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's weird how much beauty. And still today, if you want to look hot, like a Vogue model, you know, like the money.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, exactly. And we change whatever it is we think is hot to be whatever is the most difficult or expensive thing to acquire. So, you know, when everyone couldn't afford a Brazilian butt lift, the Kardashians have big old boots.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And thank God for that. All right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And until quite recently, being overweight went from being something that only rich people could have because they could afford the food to actually now it's a sign of not having enough. Enough money and not being able to eat right and go to the gym. I wonder what's going to happen with the dawning of Ozempic. What will happen now?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, yeah, we're already seeing, I think, this backlash where we are getting, like, thinner and thinner women now again being posited, as, you know. I know, I know, girl, I know. But. And again, we're doing the same thing now with the way that we talk about diet or the way that we talk about fat as medieval people do with beauty. Right. Where we really associate fatness with, like, some kind of moral inferiority.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Control.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. Oh, well, you lack self control and you're unable. Yeah. As though that has any. Anything to do with how bodies work. And like all of the science tells you that that's absolute junk.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, thank you for fixing that, Steve.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Cheers for that. But we love to do it. You know, there's something that our society just really enjoys to do, which is place a moral weight on what we consider attractive, as though what we consider attractive doesn't change.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, that's so true. Fat shape. Yeah. When you look at our attitude with fat today, I think you can actually get your head around a lot of historical attitudes with this linking of moral worth with how you look. And what about race? Because one of the interesting things to come out of historical research in the past 30 years or so is that historians suddenly went, did anyone check on the black people? And then someone went, oh, fuck, no, we didn't. They're all here.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Damn. Well, you know, a really great place to go see hot black people is one of my favorite paintings of all time, which is Hieronymous Bosch's the Garden of Earthly Delights.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, that is. That is a scene that he paints.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, it is. It really, really is. And you can see very many hot, naked people, some of whom are black. And it's hilarious because they're just like, they look exactly the same, but they are black.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I love that. Yeah, it's not true. I'm being very flippant, but it's not true that people in the Middle Ages would have only thought that white people existed. They were much more multicultural and diverse than. Than we give them credit. Oh, God.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. And I mean, like, especially places here like London, we know that there are lots of Africans around the shop. And honestly, it just makes us look like we suck here in Europe. If you think that there aren't black people about. I'm like, dude, people wanted to come here. Like, you know, there's a lot of trade back and forth. People are moving around all the time, and all you have to do is like, sit down and read a medieval book. And they'll be like, oh, and then this person went on a voyage to wherever and they talk about it all the time. Time in these really matter of fact ways. They talk about what the trade routes are, and people move along those routes just as much as goods do. So we, we know that 100% you're coming into contact with other races. You know, probably they will do some light racism at you if you are black, especially because there is such a premium put on light skin. But we also know that they clearly think that these people are hot, which is why they get included in stuff like the Garden of Earthly Delights, where they're like, I want to make a big hot fruit orgy scene. There's going to be birds, real birds, and like women birds. And some of them are black, and they are also hot and sexy. And in my ideal garden orgy with giant berries, there will be black women as well. So there you go.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So there might have been a sort of. It is still a type of racism, but. But any rhetoricizing of people that weren't white.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, I mean, 100%. Like, I'm not like, please do not say. Don't let anyone say that. I said Hieronymus Bosch has perfect racial politics. But, you know, certainly he posits these people as people who can be attractive and certainly like, on par. But of course, also, you know, the Garden of Earthly Delights exists as, in theory, an admonishment like, don't you do it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He does also paint, like, frogs eating people's bottoms.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you paint the big. You paint big garden orgy to be like. And you shouldn't like this.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Don't threaten me with a good.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Which is how you get away with it, right? You gotta, you gotta be like, oh no, it's very bad. Stop looking at it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This is an awful scene.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Oh, wow. I can't believe. Wow. Gotcha. I bet you think this is sexy, you pervert.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Thanks so much to Kate Lister once again for having me. And thank you you for listening to Gone Medieval from History hit. If you are interested in the world of medieval women, why not check out our past episodes on medieval women writers or medieval sex. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film the Medieval Apocalypse, released weekly and ad free podcasts. By signing [e-mail] forward SL subscription, you can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

Wow, my warranty is incredible. American Home Shield. Don't worry, be warranty for 20% off our plans.

[Matt Lewis]

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