Medieval Europe's Most Evil Monarch

Summary

Gone Medieval (History Hit)

Episode: Medieval Europe’s Most Evil Monarch

Date: December 30, 2025

Host: Dr. Eleanor Janega (History Hit, Gone Medieval)
Guests/Co-hosts: Matt Lewis, Anthony

---

Episode Overview

This lively episode of Gone Medieval (in collaboration with After Dark) is a spirited debate and irreverent exploration aiming to identify "Medieval Europe’s Most Evil Monarch." Host Dr. Eleanor Janega, joined by Matt Lewis and Anthony, brings a mix of dark humor, sharp historical analysis, and candid opinions to four notorious monarchs: Pedro the Cruel, Richard the Lionheart, Isabella the She-Wolf of France, and Vlad Dracul (aka Vlad the Impaler/Dracula). The group ranks their evilness by examining scandalous personal tales, political brutality, and the lasting perception of these rulers.

---

Key Discussion Points & Segments

1. Setting the Stage: What Makes a Monarch "Evil"?

[03:03]

• Matt Lewis previews the contenders: kings seeking revenge in bloody ways, monarchs killing en masse out of boredom, rulers renowned for impaling their enemies.
• Anthony jokes about the episode’s theme: “A lot of different ways to be a dickhead in history.”
• The hosts agree on examining not only historical atrocities, but motives and legacies.

---

2. Pedro the Cruel (Pedro I of Portugal)

Segment Starts: [03:55]

Narrative & Atrocities

• Pedro’s reign characterized by personal vendettas and violent retribution, particularly after his mistress (and possible secret wife), Ines de Castro, is murdered by order of his father, the king.
• In response, Pedro orchestrates a bloody revenge:
  • Has two of Ines’ killers executed by reportedly tearing their hearts out (the sources are mixed, but “it’s poetic, we love” [09:49] - Matt Lewis).
  • Anthony quips, “Do it for love, King” [09:47].
• Legendary (likely apocryphal) tale: Pedro exhumed Ines’ body, placed her on the throne, and forced the court to pay homage [10:18].
• “He does kind of like straight up serial killer violence, but it is revenge... It’s giving Mandy”—a reference to the 2018 Nic Cage film (Matt Lewis, [13:01]).

Analysis & Legacy

• Pedro’s actions are framed as the corruption of chivalric and romantic tradition, elevating courtly love to gruesome extremes.
• Hosts debate whether his violence is mitigated because it’s motivated by love and personal loss.
• “If I die and someone doesn’t cut out someone else’s heart for me, I’m not interested.” – Eleanor, [49:21].

Notable Quote

• “He tears their hearts out and he’s like, ‘this is what you did to me.’” – Matt Lewis [09:50]
• “I’d cut someone’s heart out if they killed my husband.” – Eleanor [12:24]

---

3. Richard the Lionheart

Segment Starts: [14:24]

Myth vs. Reality

• Richard is remembered as a legendary English king and crusader, but the hosts dismantle his reputation:
  • “He does not care about this country at all whatsoever. He’s got no interest in England as anything other than a bank account.” – Matt Lewis [15:11]
  • Barely visited England, didn’t speak English (“Frenchest guy who ever done did French” [15:39]), used England to finance his crusading ambitions.
• Imposed the “Saladin tithe”—a 25% property tax to fund the Crusades, seen as highly oppressive [16:21].
• Sold public offices for cash (“far be it for me to say the hereditary way is better, but you shouldn’t be able to sell offices” [17:22]).

Brutality

• During the Crusades, after besieging Acre, takes about 2,700 Muslim prisoners:
  • “Eventually the management isn’t particularly great because he…just kills them all.” – Matt Lewis [18:56]
  • “People don’t ordinarily just kill the entire population.” – Matt [19:08]
• Allegedly orders the assassination of Conrad, new King of Jerusalem, and is widely suspected of orchestrating political murders ([19:49]–[20:13]).
• Is captured and held for massive ransom. “His mom, Eleanor of Aquitaine, basically bankrupts the kingdom again” to free him [21:30–21:55].

Perceptions & Legacy

• Hated in continental Europe: “When he’s released, they send word: ‘the devil is loose; look to yourself’” [22:44].
• Never returns to England after his release; is indifferent to the country in life and death (“none of his body even comes here” [24:11]).
• The myth of Richard as a heroic king exists mainly because he was absent and thus became a blank canvas for legend.

Notable Quotes

• “Ask anyone else in Europe, and they’re like, ‘that man is a monster. He’s an awful person.’” – Matt Lewis [24:12]
• “The only good thing about Richard the Lionheart is his at least bisexuality. Like, a flexible king, very close with his boys, etc.” – Matt Lewis [15:23]

---

4. Isabella, the She-Wolf of France

Segment Starts: [25:59]

Background & Drama

• Isabella, French princess, marries Edward II of England, becomes embroiled in court intrigue involving her husband’s romantic interest in male favorites and the redistribution of her own lands to his boyfriends.
• “She’s such a messy. She is so messy.” – Matt Lewis [26:09]
• After being sidelined, Isabella allies with exiles (possibly begins an affair with Roger Mortimer) and stages a coup, deposing Edward II and ruling as regent for her young son, Edward III [28:09–30:17].
• “She has deposed and killed a king … Ruling with her out-of-wedlock boyfriend, which is such a power move.” – Matt Lewis [30:17]

Schemes & Reputation

• Launches the Tour de Nesle Affair in France: exposes her sisters-in-law for adultery by identifying purses she gave them being worn by their alleged lovers. The scandal results in imprisonment and deaths, affecting the French succession [31:27–32:09].
• Eventually, Edward III comes of age, has Mortimer killed, and puts Isabella under luxurious house arrest, “hunting and living with endless money” [33:14].

Analysis & Legacy

• Notorious in her day; dubbed “the she-wolf of France.”
• Matt: “She faces absolutely no consequences in her lifetime. … Sometimes rich people do not face consequences for their actions, you know, which is interesting because her husband certainly did.” [33:15, 34:20]
• Admired by hosts for cunning and audacity, but ultimately considered less “evil” than the others.

Notable Quotes

• “The girl has receipts. She notices everything. She’s incredibly smart, and she will call you out. I love that for her.” – Matt Lewis [32:54]

---

5. Vlad the Impaler (Vlad Dracul)

Segment Starts: [35:57]

Atrocities & Methods

• “You think you have a way in through horror films and Dracula, but sometimes it’s even bloody worse than you might have imagined.” – Anthony [36:12]
• Ruthless leader of Wallachia, famous for impaling tens of thousands (both Saxons/Germans and Ottomans), not for drinking blood as legend suggests but for brutality as “a visionary innovator” of terror [39:17–39:32].
• The impalements, described in gory woodcuts, involved slow, torturous deaths; widely considered an intentional campaign to terrify opponents [37:44–40:50].
• Not even his own people spared: tales (possibly apocryphal) of inviting the poor to a banquet and burning them alive highlight his disregard for human life and ruler’s moral responsibility [44:21–45:32].

Political Context & Folk Legacy

• Seen by Romanians as a folk hero for resisting invaders, but even at the time “everyone else is like, damn, bitch, you live like this” [41:55].
• The scale and intensity of violence often exceed even the norms of late medieval warfare.

Modern Perceptions

• The hosts debate whether Vlad’s notoriety is owed to literary reinterpretation as Dracula. Conclusion: history alone would make him stand out, but Bram Stoker’s Dracula turned him into a global myth [46:04–47:47].

Notable Quotes

• “What are his motivations? … Does he just have a fetish for sticking people on sticks?” – Eleanor [41:55]
• “The kill count is just too high. … He’s statted out the goat in terms of random people that are killed.” – Matt Lewis [48:47]

---

Final Ranking & Reflections

[48:41 – 50:16]

• Matt Lewis’ evilness ranking: 1. Vlad, 2. Richard, 3. Isabella, 4. Pedro.
• “For me, Pedro shouldn’t even be on this list. If I die and someone doesn’t cut out someone else’s heart for me, I’m not interested.” – Eleanor [49:21]
• All agree Vlad’s sheer numbers and “how horribly it’s done” make his case unparalleled.
• Richard the Lionheart receives a reputational reckoning: “He’s a real, real scumbag.” – Eleanor [50:14]
• Listeners are encouraged to submit rankings and share whether they find Pedro’s violent devotion romantic.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (by Timestamp)

• “There’s like a lot of different ways to be a dickhead.” – Matt Lewis [03:39]
• “Do it for love, King.” – Anthony [09:47]
• “He does not care about this country at all whatsoever. … He’s got no interest in England as anything other than a bank account.” – Matt Lewis [15:11]
• “When he’s released, they send word: ‘the devil is loose; look to yourself.’” – Matt Lewis [22:44]
• “She faces absolutely no consequences in her lifetime.” – Matt Lewis [33:15]
• “The kill count is just too high. … He’s statted out the goat in terms of random people that are killed.” – Matt Lewis [48:47]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:55] — Pedro the Cruel
• [14:24] — Richard the Lionheart
• [25:59] — Isabella the She-Wolf of France
• [35:57] — Vlad the Impaler
• [48:41] — Hosts debate and rank the worst monarchs

---

Episode Tone & Style

The episode is irreverent, witty, and fast-paced, with frank asides and banter, but never at the expense of historical accuracy. The hosts balance entertaining hyperbole (“there’s a lot of different ways to be a dickhead” [03:41]) with genuine historical insight and nuanced takes on the complexities of rule, power, and legacy.

---

Conclusion

A sharp, darkly funny, and insightful episode that dismantles royal myths and explores whether power inevitably corrupts—or just reveals the worst “dickhead” tendencies in medieval monarchs. Vlad the Impaler takes the dubious crown, but every contender offers lessons on brutality, reputation, and how history remembers—or excuses—the powerful.

---

For listeners:

• You’ll learn both infamous and lesser-known stories of royal villainy.
• Expect lots of laughter along with serious reflections on historical myth-making.
• Pedro wins for “most romantic,” Vlad for sheer horror, and Richard for being the most overrated hero.
• Tune in if you like your history frank, full of personality, and not afraid to call Richard the Lionheart a “scumbag.”

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, There the last one. Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

[Dr. Eleanor Jennica]

Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennica and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit. The the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. One of the huge perks of working at History Hit is that sometimes I'm let out of the Gone Medieval dungeon and allowed to visit our sister podcasts. Recently, I did just that, going over to After Dark to hang out with Anthony and Maddie, who are absolute gems.

[Matt Lewis]

We had a brilliant time while I.

[Dr. Eleanor Jennica]

Ranted about who medieval Europe's most evil monarch is. I had so much fun, in fact, that I wanted to make sure all you wonderful Gone Medieval listeners could check it out, too.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Today our guest is, I think, possibly the only person who we could have on for this. It's Dr. Elena Jarniger back again.

[Matt Lewis]

Hello. Hello.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

We love to see it. Now, Eleanor, if you don't know, first of all, are you on dry rock? What's going on?

[Anthony]

I thought she said, are you on dry rot?

[Matt Lewis]

That's right, girl. Get on a dry rot.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

If you're not like, what are you doing? Ellen is for anyone who doesn't know, host of our sister podcast from history hit Gone Medieval alongside the brilliant Matt Lewis. And she's the star of a lot of history hit documentaries. Right.

[Anthony]

You have racked them up in luxurious locations. We go to Yorkshire, she goes to Avignon.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah, we've been really whining about this today. Eleanor's latest medieval apocalypse. Out now.

[Dr. Eleanor Jennica]

Out now.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah, yeah, it's a cracker. Go and watch it. You've picked a smorgasbord of awful monarchs for us today and we're gonna go through the list and then we're going to announce a winner. We're going to crown a winner of the worst ever monarch. But first of all, don't give us any names, but give Us a sense of just how awful some of these people are going to be today.

[Matt Lewis]

Okay, so we have rulers who are pursuing their own vendettas, which may or may not end up involving cutting people's hearts out. We have rulers who are doing things like just getting kind of bored of this whole prisoner thing and killing everybody. We have got rulers who are also. Ooh, it's gonna give the game away. Impaling rather a lot of people.

[Anthony]

Oh, I do. We know that. That's.

[Matt Lewis]

What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Okay, it's Richard iii, right? Surely. So, yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

There's like, a lot of different ways to be a dickhead.

[Anthony]

When that happens to be the title of this episode. A lot of different ways to be a dickhead.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Different ways to be a dickhead.

[Anthony]

Different ways in history to be a dickhead. Right, okay, so I'm gonna start with one of them. Now we're gonna name and shame one of the dickheads.

[Matt Lewis]

One of the dickheads.

[Anthony]

I've never heard of this person. Like, this is my first encounter. Pedro the Cruel.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah. Is this nominative determinism?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Anthony]

It's like, he's boring.

[Matt Lewis]

They're like, what shall we call him? Pedro the Cruel.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I am looking for baby names currently, so I'll put it on the list.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, absolutely. So he is a Portuguese, and he is also known as Pedro the First in Portugal. And so this is one of the reasons why you kind of don't hear about him up here. We have a tendency to sort of ignore Iberian history for one reason or another. But homeboy seems to be like. He's just like one of these classic kings, right? Where it's like he decides that what he's going to do with his reign is get back at everyone that he thinks has wronged him.

[Anthony]

I'm afraid that might be me.

[Matt Lewis]

If I've write 100%, you know, like, who can blame him?

[Anthony]

Just buckle up, because this is gonna look bad.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

You'd have your burn book going through it.

[Anthony]

All those boys from secondary school, they're gonna be in for it now. No jokes. Go on. Sorry.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Name names.

[Matt Lewis]

So, yeah, basically, there's a lot going on down at the court in Portugal, and a lot of all of this kind of hinges on infidelity, right? So because what is happening is, like, at a point in time, Pedro's sister is supposed to be married off to the crown of Castile. The king of Castile is kind of like, not interested in his sister. He's got, like, a Mistress. So his sister kind of like, comes back in infamy, and then they're like, Castile. You know, his dad has a mistress, Lenore, and Pedro doesn't like that. Then Pedro celebrates by going and getting his own mistress. And so there are. There's, like, just a lot going on. Right, okay. So everyone's feelings are hurt, essentially.

[Anthony]

That's amazing.

[Matt Lewis]

Everyone's feelings. Everyone's feeling better.

[Anthony]

Everyone's.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, exactly. And it's like, you know, ordinarily one simply has one's mistresses when one is royalty. Right. Like, that is something that you can do. And what Pedro has done is he gets married off to the daughter of the Duke of Bourbon, and her name is Blanche, which was rather the style at the time. And so this is an incredibly important match. You know, Portugal is always really kind of worried about Castile possibly coming and eating them. You know, they want to make sure that they are an independent kingdom. And the Dukes of Bourbon are incredibly wealthy. So this is, like, a really, really good match. Trouble with this is that Pedro's not that interested in Blanche, and he instead has a girlfriend named Ines.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Okay.

[Matt Lewis]

And Ines came along with Blanche to court and is one of her ladies in waiting. And Pedro is basically like, oh, hell yeah, I like this. And they take up with each other. Pedro's dad, not a huge fan of this. He's like, homie, like, you can't be mad. We can't be mad at Casteel who sent your sister back. And then you're doing the same thing over here. And Pedro's like, I think, fine, we can.

[Anthony]

I'm gonna do it.

[Matt Lewis]

And so they're like, we are separating you from your girlfriend. And Pedro's like, I am leaping. And, like, he storms out after Ines. You know, it depends on who you ask. Pedro claims that they get married in, like, secret against.

[Dr. Eleanor Jennica]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

Like, by this time, like, poor Blanche, Rip has died in childbirth.

[Anthony]

Oh, she's gone.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, she. It's the style of the time.

[Anthony]

She's supporting characters.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

Like, marginal. Okay.

[Matt Lewis]

And so, like, ordinarily, then, you know, Pedro's like, okay, well, great. This clears the way for me to marry the chick I've been banging the whole time. And his dad is like, no, because, like, you are a prince, and I. You are going to get married off to a princess. You're going to get married off to someone powerful, not a lady in waiting. And Pedro's like, gonna go marry my girlfriend. Bye. And it depends on who you ask.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Some people say, good for Pedro.

[Matt Lewis]

Do you know I have a feeling.

[Anthony]

We probably shouldn't be on his side.

[Matt Lewis]

I don't know where this is going. So basically what happens is he claims that he went and married us. One way or another, they're kind of like, you know, maybe they're living in sin. Other people are like, he's definitely not married. But obviously this is one of these, like he said, she said. And it's difficult to know because obviously Pedro is gonna say they got married, right? Like, in order to stop everything. And obviously his dad is gonna be like, the hell you did. Right? Because he's wanting to still kind of like, keep this alive. Pedro's dad decides to solve this by having Ines murdered.

[Anthony]

So still kind of team Pedro, then.

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

The dad is the villain.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

The dad is the villain.

[Anthony]

Okay, so far.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. Now, one of the people who murdered Inez is Pedro's half brother.

[Anthony]

Wait, one of the people that murdered Inez is Pedro's half brother.

[Matt Lewis]

Okay. There's like, three dudes who kill her, right? And basically, Pedro freaks out, as one does, and he starts an open revolt against his father. Now, I don't have a problem with this. I'm like, you know, treat yourself, homeboy. That seems fine to me. So he loses. Pedro does. And so he has to capitulate to his dad. He gets brought before the court, and he's like, yeah, sorry, dad definitely didn't mean Turabelle against you. I'll never do it again. Blah, blah, blah. And his dad is like, okay, yeah, fine. Like, we'll marry you after, princess. It'll all be fine. And then his dad kicks the bucket three months later, the circumstances vaguely mysterious. Like, who knows? Like, it could just be, you know, like, I'm gonna be real with you. It's the Middle Ages. He might have just got a cold.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

Like, I don't know, right?

[Anthony]

So either way, dead.

[Matt Lewis]

Either way, he's dead. And so Pedro's like, for my first act, I'm going to arrest everyone who killed my wife, including, I'm still his wife.

[Anthony]

Fair enough.

[Matt Lewis]

And that would be fine. I think that would be fine. It is alleged that two of the individuals, one kind of gets away, are then brought to Pedro, and he decides that he's going to kill them himself. And that in order to do this, the way that he decides to kill them is he cuts their chests open and tears their hearts out.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

No. Do you know what? I'm still team Pedro.

[Anthony]

Honestly, I might be okay with this.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Do it for love King.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I might be.

[Anthony]

Okay.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I'm on Board with it.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. So like he tears their hearts out and he's like, this is what you did to me.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And so like. And so this is where things get weird, right? People report on this. He definitely killed these guys, like one way or another. Whether or not he tore their hearts out, we don't have a way of knowing. I'm going with it. Cause it's poetic. We love, right? But we learn all about this through varying chronicles. And chronicles are usually like, you know, basically some rich guy pays a guy off to write the history of it. Right?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

What is said at this point in time in the chronicles, I do not believe that this happened. But they say that for his next trick, Pedro then goes and has Inez's body exhumed and that he puts her on the throne and puts a little crown on her head and says, everyone, come worship your queen. Like come and come and like, kiss her hand. And like, makes everyone like line up to like.

[Anthony]

That's not romantic. Don't. Yeah, he dug up her body and put her on a throne.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

But he's obviously not well and he loved her so much and he's heartbroken.

[Anthony]

I'm not well, but I'm not gonna go and dig up the granny, am I?

[Matt Lewis]

This is like getting dangerous into. Actually, I love the kingd ever sign out territory.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

But like, he may have crossed over. But you know what? It's still, it's still not romantic.

[Anthony]

That is ghoulish though.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

It's very crown on her head for her.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, he put a crown on her head and he's like, kiss her, kiss her. To like everyone.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

So people at the court are like, okay, okay, Yeah, I guess we're doing.

[Matt Lewis]

This and like, obviously like, we're dealing with a guy who like is cutting hearts out, apparently. So allegedly they did it. Now I don't think that that necessarily happened. Great story. Telling the story. Don't think it happened. Which one?

[Anthony]

The cadaver on the throne.

[Matt Lewis]

The cadaver on the throne story. Yeah, I know, but you know, it tells us a lot about what people think about him and kind of his single minded determination. What he definitely does do is he does exhume her body and he creates a couple of like very grand tombs for her. And he has her like brought alongside so that she can be thought of as the former queen. And I think that's kind of sweet. He dies kind of soon after this and he has like this super like grand tomb made so that they are like buried next to each other, facing each other so that at the resurrection.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

The first time straight back in Team Pedro Hill.

[Matt Lewis]

I know, right? So it's like, oh, so now you guys can't be wife guys. I see how it is. And so they are supposed to see each other first when they rise for the last judgment at the end of. And it says on the tomb until the end of the world in nest of Pedra. I know.

[Anthony]

Here, listen. He gets a solid 8 out of 10 from me in a positive way. I think I see spin, right. The cruel thing is spin from another reign and another. Whatever.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I'd cut someone's heart if they killed my husband.

[Anthony]

I mightn't go that far. Like, I do like Shane an awful lot.

[Matt Lewis]

But listen, I support you both.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

You need Shane to help you with the practicality. He said he'd be dead, so I looked.

[Matt Lewis]

Right.

[Anthony]

I can't. I don't have time to be doing that.

[Matt Lewis]

Who has time for revenge in all this? So, yeah, it is one of these.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I am 100% on board with Pedro.

[Matt Lewis]

So basically, what we really see from the story of Pedro, though, is that certainly he does kind of like straight up serial killer violence, you know, but it is revenge, you know? And I mean, it's giving Mandy, right, Like, shout out to fairly obscure Nicolas Cage movies. But I think that what it definitely tells us a lot about is how the nobility and royalty usually comport themselves. And it's like you can kind of do horrible things, but you're not supposed to take it personally. It's very odd. So it sort of just tells us how there's a lot of weird violence going on at the noble rank.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Ordinarily, could we read it as. It's kind of like a corruption of the chivalric tradition, right, of like, kind of being honorable and treating women in a certain way and putting them on a pedestal. And this is kind of like this has gone tits up.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

Like, I mean, because the thing is, within, like, the courtly love tradition, it's totally normal to have a girlfriend. And, like, because no one gets married because they love each other. But you're supposed to, like, keep it on the down low. It's supposed to be something that you're doing over there that you don't make everyone's.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

You don't necessarily cut people's hearts out.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, no, you don't cut people's hearts out. You don't. You love your girlfriend, but you don't try to turn her into your wife. And indeed, a lot of the time, the office of marriage is seen as antithetic to Romance. So he's kind of like subverting the normal way that we would think about romance and marriage.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

A film about him.

[Matt Lewis]

Because there ought to be.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I'm on board. I want to make this. I really fancy him.

[Matt Lewis]

There you go. I'm sure that the Portuguese have made one that's spiraled.

[Anthony]

That is spiraling.

[Matt Lewis]

Okay, so so far I'm doing Team Pedro. Listen, I'm doing bad. It's like I've come on and I've been like, do you like that? I'm like, wow, what's going on here today? Really good.

[Anthony]

I'm. We are about to discuss a figure that everybody loves. We can hear you in the comments now. It's fine. It's just interpretation. You'll survive. That said, Richard the Lionheart.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Okay?

[Matt Lewis]

This fucking guy. Listen, listen. He's the wario of Pedro the Cruel. Right? Okay. Like absolutely opposite. Absolutely opposite. Right. And everyone is all like, aw, Richard the Lionheart. Really great guy. Yeah. Because he wasn't here.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

So you can just turn him into anything that you want.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

In my head, he is the literal lion in the Disney movie.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. Like, unfortunately, everyone our age just grew up with like the sexy fox, Robin Hood, which was very confusing. And then he shows up as like a lion at the end and everything gets better.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah. The thing that is the extent of my historical knowledge.

[Matt Lewis]

Right? Yeah. Okay. So the thing that we've got to understand about him is like, he does not care about this country at all whatsoever. Right. It's like he's got no interest in England as anything other than a bank account.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Which is so interesting because today he's so evoked in right wing circles and, you know, is such a kind of stalwart of English values and blah, blah. And he wasn't even here.

[Matt Lewis]

He came here like four times. Homeboy did not speak English. Right.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Like really?

[Matt Lewis]

No. He speaks French and he speaks Occitan. This is the Frenchest guy who ever done did French. And he becomes the King of England, essentially. He's like, awesome. Because what I am going to do is I'm going to treat England like a bank account and I am just going to take all of this money and I'm going to go fight Saladin Nohomo. Let's also be clear. The only good thing about Richard the Lionheart is his at least bisexuality. Like, you know, a flexible king, very close with his boys, et cetera. So you know what he does when he becomes king? He's like, great, now I'm going to go on crusade and he establishes what is called a Saladin tithe here. And so he taxes everyone. There's this incredibly oppressive tax. Every single person who owns any property at all whatsoever has to pay 25% of it so that he can go on his little crusade.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

This is so interesting to me because the only thing that I know about this period is that his brother, his half brother John, is meant to be the king that taxes the crap out of everybody. And actually Rich is doing that already.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, it's like 100% like, you know, the. Know the rules. HR comment. It was like when he's like, big tax. Everyone's like, oh, you're so sweet. And when John does it, they're like, hello, hr. Yeah, you know, so it's like. And it's because he. He puts this incredible tax on them. And then one of the other things that he does is he actually sells a bunch of public offices where he's literally like, oh, hey, who. Whom wants this? I will sell it to you. Like, give me money. And like, you can be.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And was that done in this period? This is a new thing that he.

[Matt Lewis]

Jesus Christ. No, like, and like, okay. And far be it for me to be like, oh, actually like, a really hereditary ways of passing things down is.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

A way to do exposing yourself, Harold.

[Matt Lewis]

I know, but it's like you shouldn't also, like, be able to sell.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

You know, varying offices like that. That is not the one, in my opinion. So he imposes these incredibly brutal taxes and is like, peace. And like, he is on his way to the Holy Land. On the way to the Holy Land, after he's fleeced everyone, like in the country, he first stops off down in Sicily immediately like besieges a bunch of town, kills a bunch of people because he's like, I don't know. I'm bored.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Wow.

[Anthony]

This is what kings do.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. I just think that, like, my nephew should actually be like the Duke of Messina. So. And everyone's like, wow, that's interesting. Right. And then he eventually, like, they eventually get him on. On a boat. Right. It was like, ordinarily, when one goes on crusade, one does not besiege several Christian kingdoms on the way. But, you know, Richard's built different. He gets over to the Holy Land and he lands at Acre. Right. And this is still kind of like a very kind of fallen to Saladin. And they managed to take it back. He apparently has like the equivalent of what we think might be scurvy now at the time. And he's like sitting on a bed, being Moved around and he's like shooting people with crossbows. And I'm just like, I hate it. I hate it. So eventually they take back over the city. That would be good. He, though, is worried that they are going to get stuck in Ankara. He wants to go take over Jerusalem. And he's got about 2,700 prisoners, Muslim prisoners, and he's kind of like, using them as leverage against saladin, being like, 700.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I mean, that's. What's the management of that. Like, how. How is that working?

[Matt Lewis]

Well, eventually the management isn't particularly great because he. Since he gets worried that he's going to get stuck there, he just kills them. All, right, okay. He just kills, like, almost 3,000 thought.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Through the management of.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And he's like a bunch of women and children, whatever. Like, I guess that we will just like, kill. Like, they should not have been living in that city, I guess, which is not a normal thing to do. People don't ordinarily just kill the entire population. Okay, I'm hearing you.

[Anthony]

I just.

[Matt Lewis]

So then they're all like, okay, that's it. We're gonna go take Jerusalem back from Saladin. Like a go, Christians go or whatever. And then like, on the way, like, everybody is like, oh, it's so gonna happen. Babe, babe, we are gonna take back Jerusalem. And so they're like, well, we're gonna. We're gonna elect a new king of Jerusalem. And he's like, really?

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Wow.

[Matt Lewis]

Who is getting elected?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Set his crossbow to one side.

[Matt Lewis]

The answer is a guy called Conrad. Conrad gets. Gets elected, and Richard takes this poorly. And a few weeks later, Conrad is then killed by an assassin. Oh, and when I say assassin, I mean, like, one of the OG original Hashashins, like, you know, trained by, like, the old man of the mountain. And of Richard's like, wow, that's crazy.

[Anthony]

Who was.

[Matt Lewis]

Literally everyone is like, so it was Richard, right? Like, Richard paid for this. Like, all of the Christians are like, this guy is out of control. Like, he 100% has killed Conrad. And everyone is like, dude, what? And Richard's like, anyway, that's crazy. I gotta go. And he, like, basically takes off after that. And everyone is like, what? Like, what just happened? People are not happy with him, right? And so basically, by the time he shows back up in Europe, he gets arrested almost right away by of the holy Roman imperial dukes, Leopold, who's like, remember how you killed Conrad, my cousin? I hate this. Right? And he puts him under house arrest. Now, there is some back and forth about whether or not you should be allowed to do that. The Pope is like, you're being very bad, Leopold. Let him go. And Leopold is like, yeah, well, I'll let him go by sending him to the Holy Roman Emperor. And the Holy Roman Emperor is like, I hate you. You suck. And send the Holy Roman Emperor has him, like, locked up. So meanwhile, then everybody's gotta, like, ransom him out. And the Holy Roman Emperor has given it a, like, $100 billion. And basically, he asks for so much money that it is like, the yearly revenue of England three times over.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Oh, wow.

[Anthony]

Yearly revenue of England three times over. So he isn't coming back.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. Well, except for Eleanor of Aquitaine is a real one. So it's like, Eleanor of Aquitaine is like, my fail sons. Like, Richard's Eleanor's favorite. He's like a real mama's boy, you know? And so she's like, okay, I'll make it work. She goes around again, puts, like, huge taxes on everyone to go, like, her wastrel son out of prison. So, like, basically bankrupts the kingdom again.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And what is the feeling on the ground in England at this time?

[Matt Lewis]

So in England, they're like, someone must get the king.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Oh, the king.

[Matt Lewis]

Because he's not there. So you can, like, make any legend you want up about him. It's like. It's this vacuum that allows you to be like, damn. Well, I know our life sucks right now, but if the king just came back, okay, you know, like, that thing. It's this john who's bad. It's, like, based on what, homie? Like, I mean, like, the incredible ruling that you had under Richard, he doesn't care about you. Like, he has no interest in this at all, whatsoever. So, like, his mom, like, basically bankrupts the country, gets all this money out. They let him out. And people hate Richard so much that when he's let out by the Holy Roman Emperor, like, he writes and he's like, by the way, like, to varying people that he's let out. And he's like, the devil is loose. Look to yourself.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Oh, sickburn.

[Anthony]

Yeah, it's actually giving me chills.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. Where they're like, this is. This is not someone that people like. This is. This is a mass murderer who hires assassins to kill people that he doesn't like, who is, like, personally pretty disagreeable, like, was just being an asshole the entire time while he was, like, under arrest by the Holy Roman Emperor and being like, I'm actually much more important than you. And the Holy Roman Emperor is like, I am literally the Emperor.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

I Can kind of hear Russell Crowe going like the devil is loose and.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Then singing a ditty.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, exactly. 100% like so. So eventually he does get let out, and then I cannot stress how much he does not come back to England. He doesn't care at all. He just ends up getting embroiled in a bunch of wars with France, building a really big castle there that he really likes and just kind of hanging out there because he does not care about England. He does not want to come back to England. And he never does come back to England.

[Anthony]

But does he care about England?

[Matt Lewis]

No. No. And then when he dies, eventually he just gets killed by some 14 year old with a crossbow who has a lucky shot because he's like, he simply cannot stop besieging people in France. It's like this is his downfall. And he has some of his viscera buried in Rouen and the rest of him is at Fontevre Abbey, where his dad is buried and where his mother will eventually be. Like, he does so disinterested in England that like, none of his body even comes here.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Even comes.

[Matt Lewis]

So it's just like the entire legend about him being a good king or being particularly righteous is just because he's not around to piss you off. So you can say anything that you want about it. Ask anyone else in Europe and they're like, that man is a monster. He's an awful person. And I think that we don't talk about it enough. So, yeah, screw that guy.

[Land.com Advertiser]

You ever feel that deep pull to the land to know it, to build something that lasts, that itch for your own wild country? Well, it ain't just a daydream. In 2025, it matters more than ever whether you're a lifelong hunter or just starting out, dreaming of land to explore, to leave something real, or there is a trailhead where you can start. It's called land.com the biggest online network for rural property. Find the right agent and explore everything from timber tracks to ranches. Get the tools you need to buy that dream generational property. Stop dreaming about it and head to land.com. it's your place to find your open space.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Now. Eleanor. Being an asshole with a crown on your head is not exclusively for men. Tell me about Isabella, the she wolf for France. Cool names.

[Matt Lewis]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So she's like my fave. She's such a messy. She is so messy. And, like, this is really. This is really one of those, like, where you have to steal yourself. So Isabella, the she wolf of France. You know, they're trying to say it as, like, brackets. Derogatory. I'm like, brackets. Positive.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

No, I'm.

[Matt Lewis]

And so Isabella was a French princess, and she marries into the English crown as one does. So she is married to Edward ii, now Edward ii, another one of our noted gay kings. And we love him. And, you know, initially, when she comes onto the throne, he's got one boyfriend, and she's like, I can make this work. I don't really care. I'm, like, 12 anyway, so, like, who cares?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Great, great.

[Matt Lewis]

Like, leave me alone. Love it. This boyfriend dies. We get a new boyfriend on the scene, new boyfriend. We do not be getting on. And Edward II is all like, I like to give my boyfriend other people's land. This goes really wrong. He eventually ends up giving some of Isabella's dowry lands to his boyfriend. And Isabella is like, no, I think the fuck not. Right? So she gets sent back to Paris. She's like, goodbye, you will not be finding me here. But also, like, Edward was, like, so busy, like, making out with his boyfriend that he sort of didn't notice that Isabella also took Edward III along with him. So, like, she's got the heir. Stupidest move that you could. Like, you definitely need to kidnap your son at this point in time. And, like. But no. So whilst at the French court, she then gets in with a bunch of other English people who are in exile, right? Because the lands get taken from varying people in order to give it to the boyfriend. And so they're like, well, I don't have any land, so I guess I'm just gonna go dick around at the French zone. And, you know, like, the French simply love to, like, irritate the English anyway, so they're like, okay, great. Like, why don't you come hang out here?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah. So basically, Edward has created a whole community of enemies that his wife is not around to.

[Anthony]

Great move for him to do that.

[Matt Lewis]

Nobody said he was smart. Okay, Right. So eventually, one of the people that Isabella meets is this guy called Roger Mortimer. Now, some people say that Roger's just, like, one of the guys who's in exile, and he happens to be like, a, you know, a pretty good military tactician. Other people say that Isabella is shagging Roger. So Hard. I like to believe the latter because I just think it's fun and cool. And I also think turnabout is fair play, you know, to have a boyfriend. Why can't she have a boyfriend? This is equality, okay? And so eventually they end up coming back to England and they take over the kingdom so fast, like, it's embarrassing. Like everybody is kind of fleeing west. They kind of land over in Norfolk and they just go across the country. Eventually they catch up with Edward in Wales. Boyfriend gets killed, Edward dies. Okay. We don't exactly know how. It could just be that he's imprisoned, you know? And it's pretty easy to die when you are in prison in some indignity, you know, like if you were just like in a dungeon, like, yeah, you'll die pretty quickly. There are rumors that he is killed by a red hot. A red hot poker up the bum. I don't think that that is likely. I think that that's one of those things that medieval people say in order to.

[Anthony]

In order to indicate his same sex attraction.

[Matt Lewis]

Exactly.

[Anthony]

It's not necessarily a real thing, but it's showing.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And it's sort of like violent irony of like, huh, look what happened to me.

[Matt Lewis]

Ex. Yeah, it's like, you know, ironic punishment division. It's something that you would see really commonly in hell frescoes. When you are talking about like sodomites are in hell. This is the sort of thing. So it's probably more of like a motif. Right. But one way or another, he dies. And so Isabelle is like, sweet, I'm the queen now because Edward III is like a kid, like a tiny kid. And so she's like, I rule the kingdom with my boyfriend. So like, so Roger is like kind of sitting there and they're like, woo, woo. So she's taken over the kingdom. Like, I cannot stress how much she has like deposed and killed again king. Right. One way or another. And ruling with her out of woodlock boyfriend, which is like such a power move. It's absolutely incredible.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Presumably not a popular one in England.

[Matt Lewis]

No. And you know, the trouble is too, that she's like, well, now that I'm the queen, she's like, yeah, I'm gonna take those lands, thank you very much. So it's like, does she learn very much?

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

No, yeah. And so eventually when Edward III comes into the majority, one of the first things he does is he basically kills Roger Mortimer. He's like, enough. No, thank. Like, right away, like, you are beheaded. No, thank you, you're done. And he's like, Mom. And she's like, what? And he's like, you are in so much trouble. You are under arrest. And it's like, oh, yeah. Like, what does under arrest mean? It's like, you have to go live at Castle Rising in Norfolk. You can. Here's, like, endless money to do it up so that it's very nice to have fun hunting. And she's like, okay. And, like, she eventually raises the Black Prince. She's like, super, super instrumental in the Black Prince's education. And she is really the link to the claim to the French throne that starts off the Hundred Years War. But she's also, like, a messy, messy queen. I love her because it's like in between all of this, one of the things that she kicks off down in France is something called the Tour of Nestle Affair. Do you know about this?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

No.

[Matt Lewis]

Okay, so this is so funny. She goes down to a base banquet in France, and she notices that there's, like, these knights that are wearing these really ornate purses. Where'd they get those purses? Because Isabella gave those purses to her sisters in law for Christmas.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Oh.

[Matt Lewis]

And she's like, where'd you get those purses, homeboys? And so she's like, oh, I bet you're shagging my sisters in law. She gets them all arrested. All her sisters in law are arrested and imprisoned.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

She is petty.

[Matt Lewis]

All the knights are killed. Most of the sisters in law die in prison. And this is what calls into question the legitimacy of the French heir.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Wow. Okay. So her legacy is huge. And across so many different lines and story plots. Oh, my God.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. She is 100%, like, a real master power broker. She really changes things for better or worse. And, you know, she is number one. The reason why you could say that perhaps we need, like, an English king on the throne. And in the second place, she is like, oh, and by the way, English kings are French. It's all Isabella. And, like, she's a real one. I'm telling you. I absolutely love her because she's just the worst. It's like she. The girl has receipts. She notices everything. She's incredibly smart, and she will call you out, right? And I love that for her.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

When does she get called the she wolf of France? Is this something that comes later or is this in her own lifetime?

[Matt Lewis]

It's in her own lifetime. They're like this chicken. You know, it's a. You just. You take over one kingdom, and it's just like, okay. And especially after she is forced into retirement, such as it is, it becomes A lot easier to do that, Monica.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

But you know, luckily for her, she faces absolutely no consequences in her lifetime. So, you know, I love that, you know, like Roger faces consequences. She does not. You know, she lives.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

That is fascinating. And I suppose that talks the relationship between her and her son Edward.

[Matt Lewis]

Right.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

He. Okay. He scolds her and is like, you.

[Matt Lewis]

Need to go and yeah, like it's.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Like you need to go somewhere else. But he doesn't kill her.

[Matt Lewis]

No, no. So it shows that at the very least he really does still love her. And he's sort of clear why these things needed to happen. But it's just like, we're done now. Put a line under it.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Marks out of 10 for Isabella, please. I'm gonna go with a five.

[Anthony]

I was gonna say five.

[Matt Lewis]

Oh, okay.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Wow.

[Anthony]

Wow.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Bad. But can't help but enjoy her a little bit.

[Anthony]

So I like the strategy. It's not the most foolproof strategy, but at least she, she's not just laying down, taking it. She is claiming power for herself. I kind of admire that. But it's kind of like she forgot to cross the t's and dot the I's, like, oh, you could have just. If you had been a tad.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

She learned her lessons along the way.

[Anthony]

And as you say, she was fine. She was comfortable. She was in the castle at the end. You know, she's good.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. It's, you know, the real. Sometimes rich people do not face consequences. Ours, you know, which is interesting because her husband certainly did. Yes, but you know, but that was.

[Anthony]

Other rich people imposing consequences on rich people. They get to do it, we don't.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah.

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Here at Blue Apron we know exactly how hectic school nights can be. That's why we created assemble and bake delicious one pan meals that make family dinner simple. Just assemble the pre chopped ingredients and put the pan in the oven to bake. Then you're free to help out with that last minute diorama shop. Assemble and [e-mail] get 50% off your first two orders with code apron50. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Anthony]

The next potential worst person in medieval Europe is somebody we know a little, a little bit on this podcast, we've done an episode on him before, and that is our old friend Vlad. Vlad Dracul.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

And he.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Friend of the Pod.

[Anthony]

You know, this is weird in many ways, because you'll say that name and actually a lot of people will have baggage, literary baggage, you know, horror film baggage. And a lot of people think they have a. Through those things, through the graphic novels, through the movies, they think they have a way into the actual history. But sometimes it's even bloody worse than you might have imagined.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. I mean, very little actual blood drinking, probably, but it's not good. No question mark. Let's just put it that way. We're like, we don't know. It is rather the style at the time when you get these particular rulers in this part of the world kind of accuse them of blood drinking, which.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Will be kind of a trope.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, exactly. He did enough bad things that I'm kind of like, yeah, help yourself.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah. You know, we have a woodcut in front of us, and I'm going to describe it before Eleanor tells us anything more. And we have spoken about this image, I think, on the Pod before. But this is a medieval woodcut, some black and white, of course. And it is a man who I take to be Vlad, sat at a table eating a feast. He's got a plate of some kind of food in front of him, and around him is a scene of absolute chaos. There's a servant ripping out, I don't know, the entrails from a beheaded torso on the floor. There's discarded hands and feet everywhere. And in the background, which I think is not necessarily conducive to a relaxing meal, is a wall of human beings dead, impaled on wooden spikes.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

What's occurring, please?

[Matt Lewis]

Okay, so our good friend Vlad, he is the Vulvoder, sometimes Vulvoda of W. Wallachia. It rolls off the tongue. And you've gotta understand that this is kind of part of Transylvania. It's not all Transylvania. Transylvania is a very large area, and at this point in history, where their allegiances lie is questionable. Right. So sometimes they're under the auspices of Hungary and sometimes the Ottomans are taking over. Right. And indeed, Vlad grows up at the Ottoman court. He's like one of those hostages. It's kind of like the Game of Thrones type situation where you, like, have a hostage and they're like, oh, yeah. So we're going to be able to. When Vlad comes into majority, he begins almost immediately to beef with the Hungarian crown. And as a part of this. He ends up going after the Saxons who live in the area, which is to say, like, they're German speakers. Like, there's a. It is rather popular in Central Europe to kind of just, like, have some Germans show up and be like, hey, what's up? We run this town, you know, and it's just like, they can't be stopped. They won't be stopped. And so oftentimes you have some Germans show up and just, like, start bossing everybody around. Vlad takes a rather dim view of this, and he feels as though these guys who are oftentimes called Hussars, are interfering with his ability to run Wallachia. He believes. So he decides that he is going to kill them all. And it's not enough to kill them all.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Very diplomatic.

[Matt Lewis]

He also impales them all on spies.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Is this a traditional thing to do in this region, or is this a Vlad thing?

[Matt Lewis]

Vlad is just, you know, ahead of his time. He's a visionary.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

He's an innovator.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, he's an innovator, and he really is able to, like, go for it with these guys. And I think that this is an interesting point because he also ends up, at varying points in time, beefing with the Ottomans, which is interesting. He kind of does a bit of a heel turn. Like, he'll. Oh, this boy loves a heel turn. It's like he will turn on the King of Hungary. He will turn on the Ottoman emperor. He will. Don't wor about this. And he will eventually get around to also impaling a couple of Ottomans. Just a couple. Because basically, like, the Ottomans are like, oh, yeah, are you going to come do homage? Right. And you're going to like. And. And he's like, oh, yeah. And by that, I mean I'm impaling these messengers right now. And the Ottomans are like, what? That is. Wait, that is the exact opposite of what I just requested. Right. And oftentimes we kind of get this twisted in a modern sense, and we go, oh, yeah, well, he, like, impaled a bunch of Ottoman Ottomans.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Okay. And it sounds like he did, Eleanor.

[Matt Lewis]

He did. I mean, he did. Like, I'm gonna be so real, but he impaled more Saxons. And what's interesting is that all of this killing, like, all of this, like, incredibly brutal killing, you know, because, like, the. The idea here is that these guys might have been alive.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

So it's just like a real.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

That's a nice detail.

[Matt Lewis]

It's a real slow one.

[Anthony]

The sounds as they're on, you know, there's groaning there's there's crying out. There's.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, y. So it's like, so this is torture. And everyone is like, wow, that's really intense. Vlad, interestingly, he is a bit of kind of like a Romanian folk hero as a result of all this, because they're like, hell, yeah, I love to kill Germans. They're like, now, now, even now. Because, you know, we've got to understand.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

That.

[Matt Lewis]

Central Europe, and especially this part of Central Europe, is constantly in the process of being taken over by random people, right? So it's like you've got a whole bunch of who kind of like drive through and they go, oh, like, look. Hi, it's us, it's the Hungarians. No, you do not know what we're saying. And we control you now. Hey, what's up? It's us, a bunch of German guys. We are actually in charge of these lands now. And the local Velocians kind of see all of this as outside interference. And they see Vlad as being more of the rightful ruler of the area. And to an extent, they see him as redressing historic wrong songs. Everyone else is like, damn, bitch, you live like this.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah. What are his motivations? Is this that he is defending his territory and that he is being a good ruler for his people, or does he just have a fetish for sticking people on sticks? Which one?

[Matt Lewis]

Is it impossible to say? Right. Like, it's very difficult to untangle this particularized knot because certainly he's doing it as a result of attempting to gain grace, greater control over this area 100%. Like, he's not just doing it only for fun, Right? And part of what he is doing is he is going as hard as you possibly can to make an example, right? So it's like, you don't want to mess with this guy after that. You're like, he did what? Like, excuse me, I would really rather not, you know? And we definitely see, like, him get brought back into the fold of the Hungarians. Like, eventually he loses a couple battles. And then they're like, listen, you're very bad, but we are going to use you to go fight in the Balkans against Ottomans. So he's one of these characters who really kind of moves around. It's like he'll sort of fight anyone, anywhere, depending on.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

So people harness that vibe that he has.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. So they're like, if I could just point that in the direction of my enemies, that would be great. That would be really ideal. But, you know, he ends up killing just lots and lots and lots of people and a Lot of them do happen to be Muslim as well. So, you know, like a lot of Muslim Bulgarians, for example, end up dead as a result of our good friend Vlad. And so it really kind of depends on who you're asking, but the fact of the matter is, one way or another, people at the time are like, excuse me, what? Right, like this is. This is so beyond the pale of what you would ordinarily do. And certainly this is really antithetical to the way that medieval warfare often works.

[Anthony]

This is what's coming into my head as I listen to you talk about this going, you know, to a certain extent, you kind of go, oh, well, well, he's potentially regaining ground or he's defending territory or whatever it is. And there's truth in that, I think. But there's also then the rules of warfare, right? And it feeds into a lot of the people we've been talking about today going, are you transgressing the accepted boundaries that we have either silently or through some kind of a tract or whatever put down to go, this is how we conduct ourselves. This is what's expected within even extreme situations. And if you go beyond that, then you're causing a problem globally. But then if you come back onto kind of a micro level, isn't there something about homeless people or beggars or something, and he brings them for a meal?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's this legend where it's like he runs into a bunch of beggars and he's like, oh, it is I, you know, the Count come inside and then he's like, actually killed you? Yeah, like very like, it kills them anyway. And this is kind of used to highlight his transgressive nature because, you know, obviously, as a ruler, and especially a Christian ruler, like in, you know, he is a Christian and, you know, which flavor depends. Originally he's Orthodox, but then he's like forced Catholic, hashtag, kink. As a part of this, you know, you have a kind of responsibility to the people who are underneath you. You know, there's a reason why whenever you see a medieval hell fresco, it's full of kings, right? It's like kings and bishops are the ones who are in hell. And it's because everybody kind of knows that it's like immoral to be rich, right? They're like, it's. It is actually bad. You are like living off of, you know, the, the actual work of people who are. Insert. Right? It's. It's not good. So you have this moral responsibility that you are supposed to be looking after the poor and the downtrodden, you should be giving to charity. You should be looking after these people.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And you should not.

[Matt Lewis]

And you should not kill them, even if you think they're kind of annoying. Right? So whether or not that actually happened is dubious, but it's being used as a way of kind of highlighting. And he doesn't have respect for his people either. Yes, right. So, you know, because it would be one thing to just go, oh, yeah, well, okay, he does kill a lot of people, but they're Muslims or they're German. And are those people? Question mark. It's another thing to be like. And he also doesn't even look after his own people.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Lewis]

So that's why you would circulate a story like that.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Do you think that we remember him today because. Because of the literary transformation that he undergoes in becoming Dracula, or is he, in his own right, a myth?

[Matt Lewis]

I think that we would be aware of him without Dracula. I think that, like, I mean, you've seen that woodblock, you know, we're like, you know, weirdos like us would find that we would find it, right? We'd be like, oh, who's he? Right? And, you know, it is enough of a transgression against norms that stories were told about this and everyone was like, Jesus. Jesus. You know, as a result of it. I think that we would have heard about it, but I think that he would be in a little bit more obscurity. Right? I think that there are, especially around this early modern turn, you know, when we're getting into the really late medieval period, when we're about to hit the early modern period, there are a bunch of people who just start wild out, which is a technical historical term. Right. You know, I'm thinking like Ferdinand and Isabella kicking off, you know, with the Spanish Inquisition, you know, things like this, where suddenly, suddenly, like, torturing a bunch of people becomes a lot more acceptable. And it will be a lot more acceptable in the early modern period, because the early modern period is wild. So I think that we would kind of know about him, but he would just be kind of part of this larger pattern. And it is Bram Stoker, you know, one of the, you know, the second most famous Irish person, you know, not a third, because Oscar Wilde as well, obviously. Fine, I'll take courage to Oscar Wilde sign. So he really immortalizes him by using these particular names, using these locations in order to flesh out the character of Dracula. Incredible book. I just read it for the first time this summer. Really enjoyed it.

[Anthony]

But, you know, what's a little bit dis. No, I really like it, too. But you know what's a little bit disappointing? I read the book before I found out about real Vlad. So I read the book when I was, like, a teenager. But actually, once you learn the history, there's various little.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. Like, absolutely nothing. It's like the name and the place.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Transylvania. Scared?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anthony]

And blood. That's kind of about it. But that's quite a lot, I guess.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yes.

[Matt Lewis]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, this is one of these things where it's like, you know, the real monster is like, what if English chicks shag a Central European? What if a Central European had money? Oh, no. So it's rather a lot of that going on. Although it was funny. Like, Slovaks were catching strays in that book. It's a great disservice to my beautiful culture and heritage. I was like, what did we do? I'm like, okay, but who of the four?

[Anthony]

Pete.

[Matt Lewis]

Four. Right.

[Anthony]

We've done four of the four that we've talked about. Who is your absolute worst? If you had to pick. And you do.

[Matt Lewis]

I do have to pick. I think that we have to go with Vlad. I want it to be Richard just because I hate him so much. But I think that the kill count is just too high. So his kill count is larger than Richard. And I'm just doing this in terms of, like, what are the absolute numbers here? It's where he's. You know, he's statted out the goat in terms of, like, random people that are killed. So I think that for him, it's just sheer numbers of people who are killed and how horribly it's done. So it's gotta go. I think for me, we're going Vlad, Richard, Isabella, Pedro.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

See, for me, Pedro shouldn't even be on this list. Like, if I die and someone doesn't cut out someone else's heart for me, I'm not interested. Like, 100%. I'm on board.

[Anthony]

Thank God you don't have to date and that you're married, because that is your expectation.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And this would be my first date chat, by the way.

[Matt Lewis]

Would you like to hear about Pedro the cruel girl?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. Would you say that if your wife was killed, how many hearts would you pull out?

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

She would meet that level of commitment, yes or no?

[Matt Lewis]

Romance.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

And I would not get a second date. Who's worse for you?

[Anthony]

Oh, who's the worst? No, I agree with that order. Exactly. I think Vlad is.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

He just has to be.

[Matt Lewis]

He has to. There's Nothing you can do about it, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony]

He is who he is.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

For a reason. Same for you or different.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I think it has to be. It's between that or Richard. You've really convinced me about Richard.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, He's a real, real scumbag.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Rethinking that slightly. Let us know in the comments what you think.

[Matt Lewis]

Think.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

We want the rankings. We want your numbers out of 10. We want your feelings.

[Anthony]

Money.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

No, no. We want your feelings about how romantic Pedro is and whether or not you agree with me. And you should agree with me because he's clearly amazing.

[Dr. Eleanor Jennica]

Girl.

[Matt Lewis]

Oh, my God.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

Okay, if you want, you can leave us a five star review. Please do. Because it helps people to find the podcast and, you know, it's a nice little ego boost for us. We do enjoy to see the reviews.

[Anthony]

No, we. We do. I don't look at them. I know. I don't look at them. You know, I don't look at them.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

I'm look at them. So.

[Matt Lewis]

Wow. She's. She's brave.

[Anthony]

She's brave. I'm too scared.

[Matt Lewis]

You know, she's the type who would cut your heart out.

[Anthony]

Yes.

[Matt Lewis]

Leave a pedra that is coming from the same place. She's.

[Anthony]

If you leave bad reviews, she's taking your name. And who knows when she loses it one day. She's coming for you.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah.

[Eleanor (Gone Medieval Host)]

See you next time.

[Matt Lewis]

Oh, God.

[Dr. Eleanor Jennica]

Thank you so much once again to the team at After Dark for having me on. I had an absolutely cracking time. And of course, thank you for listening to Gone Medieval. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film, Joining of Arc. You can follow Gone and Evil on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts. And tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval.

[Matt Lewis]

Until next time.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Oregon Lottery Advertiser]

Looking for a last minute gift for your people? You know, your people, that weird bunch of friends and family that you love, love dearly. Well, here's an easy idea. Oregon Lottery Holiday scratch. It's because your people, they're the ones that amidst all the holiday crowds and endless notifications, help you find the fun. Which calls for a little gift that brings big cheer. Oregon Lottery Holiday. Scratch it. You know where to find them. Grab some today. Must be 18 or older to play lottery Games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only.