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- [00:01]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.
- [00:05]
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- [00:08]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
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- [00:25]
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- [00:29]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
There's a new release to enjoy every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:38]
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Or find the link in the show.
- [00:40]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Notes for this episode.
- [00:49]
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- [02:20]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Yanaga and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from Kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were. And how we got here. Before we get started today, a word of warning. Our topic is obscenity. And as a result, well, there's rather a lot of it about. The language is very strong, and there's a lot of literature that is specifically about sex. So this might be one for younger listeners to give a miss. Ah, the medieval period, a time of religiosity, courtesy and chivalric poetics. A time before the intrusion of the modern coarseness that we are all so inured to now. This delicate beauty can be found everywhere. Take, for example, this lovely rhyming riddle from a Cambridge library. A pasty of red deer cold and a loaf of bread of a day old, and a cunt of the first here. And a pintle of 21 year, written with a holy nun's hand is the best thing in all the land. Okay, yes, I was being sarcastic. Guilty as charged. Medieval people were as shocking, lively, and downright obscene as any of us now. And in a lot of cases, actually more so. And to learn all about this tendency towards the filthy today, I am joined by one of my favorite people, Dr. Carissa Harris, a professor of English literature at Temple University in Philadelphia, the author of the amazing book Obscene Pedagogies, and the transcriber of that beautiful piece of poetry that I just read you today. We're going to talk about all things obscene and to sort our pintles from our tarses. Carissa, my darling, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [04:49]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Thank you for having me.
- [04:51]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I am so delighted to have dragged you on. This has been a long time coming and I'm really excited because we get to talk about being naughty and the concept of obscenity in the medieval period. And I think this is a really important thing to talk about because there's this perception of the medieval period as it's somehow more chaste than we are. Everyone is very good and very holy, and I guess that's because we get to hear from the Church a lot in the medieval period, but medieval people are actually quite bodied. Is that fair? Do you think that's fair?
- [05:25]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes, total. I mean, it's funny because they're both quite body. And also there are the rules that we imagine being in place, but those things are happening at the same time. So their body, in defiance of these specific rules that are being broadcast by the Church at the same time. The church is breaking these rules in all kinds of ways.
- [05:42]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I mean, the Church loves it to the. Okay, so I. I guess a great place for us to start. Today, we're talking about Obscenity in the Middle Ages. I've got a great Bertrand Russell quote off the top of my head, which is that obscenity is whatever happens to offend some ignorant elderly magistrate. But when we talk about obscenity, what is it? What does that mean?
- [06:07]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, so I mean, what I am specifically obsessed with is sexual obscenity in late medieval England and Scotland. So thinking about, you know, words for sex and genitals that are in some ways taboo or kind of fall outside the lines of what's appropriate in England between like 1200 and let's be generous, let's go late, we can go up to like 1550.
- [06:35]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Love that.
- [06:35]
Dr. Carissa Harris
And Scotland during the same time period. So, yeah, and so these are words like. And it's funny because often these words are from Germanic languages. So these are words like pintle and tarse. Those are like the most obscene words for penises. So let's bring those back. Like, how stands your pencil now?
- [06:56]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Oh. Oh, wow. I'm going to start saying that, saying that to the homies when they get into the pub. You know, that's a new form of what's up.
- [07:05]
Dr. Carissa Harris
And then for, you know, there's also cunt. As you can imagine, that was an obscene term. And then sweevd was a word for meaning fucked. So sweev it. And then also fuck kind of comes in a little later. Sweeve and fuck coexist for like a golden century or two until sweev kind of drops out of use and fuck tapes over as the premier obscene verb. So, yeah, pintle, tarse, cunt, sweeve and then fuck. Coming in a little late to the party. Those are the obscene terms for sex and genitals in late medieval England and Scotland. And so it's funny because they're kind of Germanic, or in Kunt's case, from Old Norse, Old Icelandic. They're not coming from French. They're not coming from the language brought over to England in 1066 by William the Conqueror and all of his people. These are terms that are kind of. That are older on English soil and kind of endure alongside the more, you know, the more appropriate terms for sex and genitals. And also the terms that have multiple meanings, like hole, which can mean, you know, a hole in the ground or a hole in someone's body or yard, which could mean a stick or. Or a penis. You know, cunt, tarse, pencil, sweep and fuck all only mean one thing.
- [08:30]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I'm imagining, you know, one of those band shirts that has, like, the names, the. And. And like pintle and. And tarse and cunt and sweep and fuck. I'm gonna make you that for your birthday.
- [08:41]
Dr. Carissa Harris
I would wear that with great pride.
- [08:42]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Wonderful, wonderful. Okay, so thi. But this is an interesting question. Do you think that these are coming to us more from Germanic languages? Because French at this point is still kind of the language of the highfalutin. Like, you know, it's the language of the court. It's the language of very fancy people. And they are not going around being obscene.
- [09:05]
Dr. Carissa Harris
That's a good question. I mean, I would say the French are doing their own obscene things. Like French. Like, you know, like Anglo, Anglo Norman or English French body comic tales are so obscene, like the English French ones. The French ones that are written and copied in England are more obscene than the comic body tales in the genre that are from northern France. So there's one called St. Martin's Three Wishes About People sprouting cunts and pintles all over their bodies. I'm thinking about. They're wildly absent. There's three women who found a prick. Some people translate as dildo, but it's actually probably prick. They find this big dick just lying on the ground normal. And they're like, where does this be? Who owns this? Can we find its owner and give it back to them? So anyway, so the French have their own extremely, extremely obstinate seen, you know, comic tales, but those don't seem to filter into kind of more general usage. They seem to be more sequestered with courtly audiences. So there's not a lot of bleed through to regular people who are not at the court.
- [10:12]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
So that's a really important point though, I think, because we've got these ordinary, regular, obscene terms that are going around in England. But it's not like the fancy people aren't being obscene.
- [10:23]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Oh, they're being so obscene.
- [10:24]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah. It's just that there isn't this overlap in terms of terminology because they've got their own thing going on.
- [10:31]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Correct? That is correct.
- [10:32]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Oh, the fancy people are not so fancy. Now I see how it is. That's fine. But when you're looking for obscene things, you're finding them mostly in literature. Is that right? So these are stories that are being passed around, and not just passed around, but written down at a point in time.
- [10:50]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah. You find them in literature in these, you know, short comic tales are usually where you find them. You know, these, like little. Little, like, funny stories that people tell for entertainment. But you find them at kind of unexpected places. So you find them in Poems that are critiquing friars for their inappropriate sexual behavior. Because, you know, friars aren't sequestered like monks in a monastery. They can roam around and do whatever, you know, basically whatever they want. And so they're notorious for their unchaste and predatory deeds. And so you have poems that are attacking friars. They're critiquing friars. They're like, oh, yeah, the friars go about and fuck the wives of Ely, which is this town in East Anglia just north of Cambridge. You know, they're fucking the wives of Ely. They're going around in a boat because Ely was surrounded by water and sweeving men's wives. So that's one poem that's, you know, that was written in a Cambridge student's notebook in, like, the 15th century. So you see them in those places, you know, you see them in places like the Canterbury Tales by Chaucer. Of course, there's a lot of obscene terms there, although maybe not as many as we might expect, but there's, you know, there's a good amount. There's like, seven sweeves in the Canterbury Tales. And then you also see them in unexpected places. So you don't see these terms, but you see obscene stories in sermons. So, yeah, interesting.
- [12:11]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I'm reading the wrong sermons, babe. Because my sermons are all complaining about. Yes. That the friars are having sex with people's wives. That is 100% going on in my sermons. But no one's telling fun stories.
- [12:22]
Dr. Carissa Harris
So I don't know, maybe you need to read these, like, Middle English sermon stories.
- [12:27]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Okay, lay one on me. Let's go.
- [12:29]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Okay, so, you know, there's. So there's this great collection that I love so much. It's called the Alphabet of Tales. It's basically a bunch of little stories that preachers are supposed to use in their sermons to illustrate, like, why certain sins are bad or why certain virtues are good. So my favorite story in the Alphabet of Tales is this story that's meant to illustrate the deadly sin of gluttony often leads to the deadly sin of lechery. Like, okay, you know, your appetites, they start, you know, getting out of control. But this story is about a monk who's carrying this big platter of hot fritters to the dining room, to the refectory in his monastery. So he's carrying this platter of fritters. They're so, like, you know, golden and delicious and hot. He can't restrain himself. And he stops before getting to the dining hall, and he pops one into his mouth. And just eats it. He gobbles it down right there. He's like, oh, this is so good. But then that tasty little bite moves him to masturbate so that he masturbates right then and there before the fritter leads to this episode of masturbation that has never happened before. So therefore, gluttony leads to lechery. And I don't know if he ever makes it to the dining hall. I'm not really sure. And then the devil enters into him after that, and then the story ends.
- [13:42]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
This is quite interesting because we see this concern all the time in literature across the Middle Ages, like from the church, specifically talking about lechery and lust and. And saying it does come from gluttony because, oh, if you're enjoying putting some things into your body, what else might you enjoy putting into your body? And so there's this really direct link between gluttony and lust to the point that, you know, today when we use the term luxury, luxury, like luxury means lust. And, you know, we associate it with stuff like, you know, having champagne and caviar or whatever. And I think medieval people would be scandalized because you know what that means. You're, I guess, going to masturbate outside the refectory.
- [14:29]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Well, yeah. And people also, you know, in sermons, you also. I'm thinking about this sermon collection called Jacob's. Well, from like, you know, the mid 15th century. And that sermon, you know, the sermon writer is critiquing people who share these, like, bawdy, obscene stories. And they're like, oh, yeah, these sinners, their ears hunger greedily to hear stories of japes of comic battery. And, you know, and so you hear. You have this idea of, you know, lusting to hear obscenity as their ears hungering greedily. So these kind of braiding together of these appetites, these gluttonous appetites.
- [15:05]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Oh, no, he's got me. That's me.
- [15:09]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Do your ears hunger greedily?
- [15:10]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
They do, unfortunately. You know, that's. I based my entire career on trying to hear these body tales. But it's interesting because at the same time they are providing you with these tales. But there's this interesting plausible deniability there. So you're saying, okay, well, here is this incredibly obscene story, but, oh, you better not like it. This. You should really. You should really not experience this or understand it as good. But I'm still going to tell you the story, right?
- [15:39]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, yeah. There's this other story about this. It's really, really popular about this Couple who? This married couple. They're staying on the grounds of an abbey in some cases. And, you know, they decide to have sex on church property because, you know, they're married, they're allowed, except not on church property. And so they do this on church property, and their genitals become fused together. They might no more be brought asunder than dog and bitch, that man on wonder. So you can't take them apart any more than you can take apart, you know, a dog and a bitch when they're in, you know, in the heat of passion. And so this. This poor couple is just, like, stuck together and, like, help. Help. They start screaming because they realize they can't extricate themselves from each other. And all the monks come running and they're like, o my God. You know, they start praying for them really ferociously. And, you know, and they're like, please pray for us. Help. Help. And the monks pray for them. And then, you know, they're separated finally. And then, I don't know, they probably, like, run away in shame. Who knows what happens. But that story, too, was really, really popular as illustrating, you know, the. The decree that, you know, you should not have sex on church property because this might happen to you.
- [16:44]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
See, I love that, because it's like, I'm telling you this story, but I'm shaking my head the whole time to let you know that I think it's like, I'm only telling you this story to make sure that you don't do this thing that I'm illustrating, which is obviously also slightly comic. Right. Because I've also heard versions of this story where, you know, it'll be a couple who, for example, they decide to pop into a church and have sex there in the middle of the day because it's quiet, it's a building, and they get stuck together. And so in order to unstick them, they have to go on pilgrimage stuck together to a shrine while all the townspeople point and laugh at them. Right. So it's. It. There is also this kind of desire to. They're saying that it's bad, but there's a desire to point out that it's also comedic, that it's also funny. So you've got this great way of talking about obscene things, but at the same time making it clear that you don't agree with them.
- [17:43]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes, yes, but you're still gonna include all these details. You're gonna include, you know, this comparison to the dog and bitch that men on wonder. And that couplet is really interesting. Those two lines, you Know, they might not be brought us than dog and bitch that men on wonder, because that actually gets scratched out in one of the manuscripts that includes this tale. So someone was reading this, and we don't know quite when. We know it was before the British Library acquired the manuscript. So it was relatively early. Might have been like late Middle Ages, early modern period. Someone was reading this manuscript. They're like, oh, no, that is just too much. Those two lines, the dog and bitch line, that is too much. And they scraped them out of the manuscript. So we can also see traces of people objecting to these materials, even in religious texts.
- [18:27]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Okay, so it's only gonna get you so far in terms of what is bad or not. All right, fair enough. I think that's fair enough. Do we have examples also of literature that's not just doing this, you know, telling you that this obscenity is bad? I mean, can you just be obscene for the fun of it?
- [18:43]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, one of our favorite poems, a talk of 10 wives on their husband's wear. That is. I love this poem. I love to teach. I went all the way to Wales just to see this poem in manuscript. And they made me wear these little white gloves like Michael Jackson. And I was like, sure, I'll wear little white gloves. Even though you're not actually really. They're probably not the best for manuscripts.
- [19:05]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah, I was going to say that's. Yeah, I thought we were past that now.
- [19:08]
Dr. Carissa Harris
That is the one time I've worn little white gloves in my life. And I was happy to do it because that was the condition under which I could see a talk of 10 wives on their husbands wear. Now it's digitized so you don't have to wear white gloves. But, yeah, this poem, you know, it's 10 women in the ale house. And they're like, hey, since we have nothing else to talk about, how about we each tell a tale about our husband's wear, Our husband's vendable goods, you know, the goods that he got on his body. Let's each tell a tale about our husband's wear and see which one is the worthiest to take the prize. So like, you know, like, whose husband has the best wear? Let's each go around and everyone share, except then it turns to this contest of whose husband's is the worst? And they're like, oh, yeah. Well, you know, his is like, you know, like a maggot. And like, oh, his is like a sorry bird sitting on two rotten eggs. You know, his is a pintle of fair length, but it may not rise. And they just get more and more obscene, you know, as they go around. So each woman has like a stanza or two, you know, to kind of detail how terrible her husband's wear is, using all kinds of obscene detail. All these pindles and tarses, you know, are flying around throughout the poem. And, you know, and then it's over. And then the, you know, and then the person who copies it writes amen at the end. Amen.
- [20:27]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
So true. So true, bestie. But I think that this one, you know, similarly, I'm obsessed with this poem since you introduced me to it. But I think it's so interesting because it says so much, not just about what is obscene, but what people think women are doing in their spare time. They're like, you know what? When women get together, the thing that they want to do is talk about their husband's junk and make fun of it. And it's. It's so interesting because these women are kind of presented and like, yeah, obviously it's a humorous story. It's a way of telling a bunch of funny dick jokes. And I. I gotta say, the dick jokes out of sight, you know, just banger after banger, hit after hit in. In. In this. But it's interesting because this idea is that women don't have anything else to talk about other than. Than junk. And if you leave them alone, if you leave women alone for five minutes, they're going to start talking about your penis. And so it's really interesting because in theory, this is a story about a bunch of women, but it's very clearly, in my opinion, you know, written by men because they're like. This is what women are like. Like, are they?
- [21:29]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, and these anxieties of, like, if you leave them alone, you know, they. This is. They'll. They'll start kind of, you know, humiliating you and, like, sharing all of your most private things and, like, laughing about your penis with all these other women. And they'll. And that they relish in making fun of your Jones. And it's funny because at the beginning, the first wife is like, since we have no other song to sing us among tales, shall we tell of our husbands wares? Like, we have nothing else to talk about amongst ourselves except for this. So, like, why not? So, yes, this anxiety that once you leave women alone, especially when they're drinking. And there's these references throughout the poem to them asking for more wine for them, kind of like, you know, crossing their legs, sitting on the bench in the alehouse. You know, all these references that remind us that they are in an ale house drinking to great excess while they are doing this. So also anxieties around women, not just hanging out with each other, but also drinking together in particular.
- [22:24]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah. Because I've seen some studies of this that suggest that part of what we see when we have these particular obscene stories is that it's also expressing this idea of worry about women taking part in public life, essentially, and taking part in. In increasingly commoditized drinking culture. You know, because it's not that medieval people aren't drinking before this. Obviously they are, but there's a lot more going to the pub, whereas before it used to be a little bit more hanging out in. In your house drinking.
- [22:55]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, well, yeah. You know, like after. I always tell my students, like after the Black Death, everyone just drank a lot because, like, what else. How else do you respond to something like that is you just like, start drinking, you know, I was like, I would too. And then Covid happened and I was like, oh, probably, yeah, we're gonna stop.
- [23:11]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Telling that story to the students.
- [23:13]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, nevermind. But yeah, I mean, after the Black Death in the mid, you know, in England, happening In the mid 14th century, you have this explosion of ale house culture in the towns and cities, and you have people like leaving the countryside, moving to towns and cities for work, this growth of these urban centers, and people then going to the ale house as a place to hang out, as this form of community. And with that you have this explosion of all these poems about what people do at the ale house and the kinds of conversations they have there and the kinds of speech of body speech that happens in ale houses.
- [23:50]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah. It's interesting, I suppose, that we still kind of have this concept, don't we, of the bar story. Yeah, yeah. And there is an implied obscenity to that, or at least just, you know, some kind of idea of it as being fabulous or unbelievable or certainly inappropriate. Right. Like we've kept that idea.
- [24:08]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes, the people, you know, once their tongues are loosened by alcohol, that then they, you know, they get real body. They get kind of relaxed, inappropriate. They start sharing all these secrets and kind of trying to one up each other and make each other laugh. So there's have all that bound up in this kind of emerging ale house culture that you have starting in the later 14th century.
- [24:44]
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- [25:58]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
So when we have literature from the these ale house stories, is it usually women who are telling these obscene stories or do we sometimes see it come from men as well?
- [26:07]
Dr. Carissa Harris
That is a good question. Usually it's women. There's a couple poems about men at the ale house who are checking out the fine wenches around them and being like, oh yeah, you know, like, let's, let's judge which, you know, let's deem or judge which of these wenches is the finest. But you don't have the specific telling of these obscene stories by men in groups and ale houses like you do with women in groups and ale houses. So with men it's more of like, oh, is this wench hotter or is this wench hotter? And women are like, oh yeah, you know, like, his penis may not serve me. His pintle is, you know, is not good enough. And so there's a difference, I would say, in kind of how men and women are represented as talking about, about sex among themselves. In the ale house, women are way more explicit and also, like much, much more scathing and their assessments of, you know, men's genitals.
- [26:56]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I'm so obsessed with this because it's just the perfect medieval thing, right? Because women, women are the sexualized gender. In the medieval period, women are the, were the sexual aggressors. We're the ones who go out and do sexual things and are thinking things and just being so massively and overwhelmingly horny that, you know, we have to be kept an eye on. But these aren't actual real women. These are literary constructs that you've Made up. And then you're like, it's inventing a woman to get mad at, which I find really funny.
- [27:28]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes. And so then you can be like, oh, you know. And then at the end of these poems, sometimes you have the, you know, this male narrator butting in. And often these poems, too, I didn't mention are framed by this fiction of this eavesdropping man who's like, oh, yeah, I was at the ale house, and this is what I heard. And I heard all these women, they didn't realize I was sitting so close to them. And I heard everything they said. I'm going to report it to you. So this idea that the women are not meant, these fictional women who you've kind of created in order to get mad at are. They're talking among themselves, and they need a man sitting nearby to expose what they're talking about so that other men can be outraged with them.
- [28:09]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
See, this is interesting too, right? Because we. We've got these. These alehouse stories, which. Which I love. And to me, this is literature, right? It is, obviously. But there is also, you know, this corollary to it because one of the things that people kind of used to say more often about, for example, Chaucer is they would say, oh, well, you know, he's kind of telling stories of the everyman. Or telling stories like the everyman, but from this courtly place. And, you know, come on. Like, are you gonna tell me that Chaucer's works are not obscene? Because, like, buddy, they are getting into the nitty gritty.
- [28:50]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah. I mean, Chaucer was. You know, Chaucer is funny because he has some tales that are really courtly. You know, they're about, like, you, like, knights and maidens and damsels and all of that. He has a sermon in the Canterbury Tales, the Parsons tale, which people don't usually read, although there's a really great bit in it about men wearing inappropriately tight pants that I highly recomm.
- [29:07]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Oh, okay.
- [29:08]
Dr. Carissa Harris
But then he also writes these really, really bawdy stories, you know, in this. You know, in the genre of the old French fablio or this, like, short, obscene comic tale. He has those that are also really well known. Like the one where, you know, this man's, like, making out with this woman's hindquarters. You have one sweeping and all that stuff. And so Chaucer's, you know, the wife of Bath, you know, kind of, you know, sharing all about all of her. You know, her distinguished pedigree of, you know, all the Men, she is, you know, known since her youth. And so with someone like Chaucer, you have his respectable tales that in some way kind of elevate his reputation and make his body tales able to be packaged in some ways with them. And so I think that that's one of the reasons why he's able to get away, I would say, with the obscenity, with using sweave seven times, which is, like, unprecedented. There's like, one other poem that uses sweave as much as Chaucer does in the Canterbury Tales. And that's like this obscene impotence poem. They also loved impotence poetry. That's a whole other thing. But with Chaucer, you have his courtly stories kind of working to elevate his reputation and making his obscene stories in some ways be able to travel with them in various manuscripts.
- [30:24]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
That's interesting, because we do have these Chaucerian obscenities that are being ventriloquized through men. Like the Miller's Tale, for example. So it's like there's men telling these obscene stories stories. But when we're supposed to have a lifelike idea of obscenity, it gets put in the mouth of a woman who is the wife of Bath, right? So it's like, if. So it's okay to sort of have the fiction and have the narrative body story. But if you're saying, here's. Here's a little something about life and by the way, I love to swiv. Then. Then you have to write it in the mouth of a woman, right?
- [30:59]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, yeah. You have these men kind of using these obscene stories to bond with each other. You know, you have the miller telling a story that, you know, that's obs scene about, you know, a fictional reeve. And then you have. Or a sexual carpenter, which the reeve is by trade. And then the reeve is like, oh, like, okay, I'm gonna tell obscene story about a miller, you know, with sweep in it. And so you have these men kind of using these obscene stories to both bond with each other and also to attack each other and one up each other. So you have this kind of thing with the men going on and one, you know, telling obscene stories. But again, these. You know, you have these obscenities embedded, like you say, in the narrative. Whereas the wife of bat's like, I'm gonna tell you about my life. All of it, you know, going back to, you know, all the husbands. Husbands at church door. I've had five. You're not even counting all my company in Youth. And so you have her when she's talking about her own life. Of course, it's in the mouth of a woman kind of sharing her own personal sexual history.
- [31:52]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
And I guess that this really cleaves with the things when we have the 10 wives story earlier.
- [31:58]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes.
- [31:59]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Where again, if it needs to be a real life thing, then a woman is doing it and a woman is over sharing about her personal life. But men can just make up stories and that's fine. And then that's cute. And we're just doing a little obscene story here. But again, I can't stress how much this is all just a bunch of men doing it. There's no women who are writing this down.
- [32:19]
Dr. Carissa Harris
I know. It's the men who are copying this who are sharing these stories or crafting these stories. But yes, this. This idea of women oversharing really inappropriately and they overshare through obscenity.
- [32:29]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Okay, all right, well, guilty is charged, but, you know, that's fine. Sorry. Okay, can we back up and can you tell me a little bit more about these impotence poems? Because. Wow, bring em back. Bring back this important genre of literature.
- [32:42]
Dr. Carissa Harris
So there are all these poems that are voiced by men, and in some cases it's voiced by these, like, old men who are lamenting their, you know, their youthful virility and kind of talking about all of the things that they did with their pintles and tarses back when they could use them in the ways that they wanted to use them. And so they get really kind of lurid and graphic about all of their past sexual deeds. And these are also framed as a warning to young men now because it was this idea, you know, that men had like a finite amount of like, sexual energy or juice in their bodies. And once they expended all of that, there was none left. So you couldn't, you know, once you spent all of your virility in your youth, you couldn't have any more when you were older. And so you had to be judicious in how you expended it over the course of your life, or else you'd be a sad, impotent old man who could do nothing but tell obscene stories stories. So there's all of these, you know, kind of obscene tales about men kind of talking about their pintles, you know, early lives and being like, hey, all ye lovers, take heed of me, for I was once as lusty as ye, and now look at me.
- [33:50]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I love the idea of, you know, writing an autobiography of your junk. That's really great to me. We see this all the time, though, in medical texts as well, because, you know, in philosophical or medical texts, we'll see people, you know, reiterate this idea. There. There's only so much sexual virility, specifically that men have for women. It's kind of unlimited. Yeah, it could keep going, baby. Which is part of the reason why you can tell that they're the horny gender, thank you very much. But there. This also kind of translates into a worry about having too much sex with your wife because she will become more masculine by having sex with you, and you will become more feminine. And then somehow you end up like the woman in the relationship. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:37]
Dr. Carissa Harris
And also that she'll ruin you then for future partners because she will tenuous. So there's this. There's this one poem that's voiced by the sad man who's like, you know, I please my lady. I pleasured my lady for seven years and more. But then she used everything that I had. And now she has found someone else. Lusty and full of strength in labor, good at length. And so there's this warning to other men, like, hey, watch out. Make sure you're a lover. Her doesn't take all of your sexual energy during the relationship, because then she'll discard you once she's used you, and then she'll move on to the next. You know, new broom is. You know, they say, like, new broom sweep is clean, as many men saying is. And so, like, she's gonna. She's gonna want that new broom because it sweeps more clean than, you know, than, like, us old discarded brooms, you.
- [35:21]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Know, So I guess now it's illegal for women to have hobbies. Fine.
- [35:25]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Okay.
- [35:26]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
But. But also bring back that saying. I love that.
- [35:29]
Dr. Carissa Harris
This.
- [35:29]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
And, you know, saying that to anyone, like, any of my friends who get broken up with from now on. Fantastic. Fantastic news. I though think that this is a really interesting point too, because there is also sometimes this worry in especially late medieval culture about sexual relationships with women. And then if you have sex with them and then you dump her, there's this worry that she's going to, like, magic your penis so that it won't work anymore. So it. There are all of these worries that men are constantly writing about, specifically about their junk and whether or not it works.
- [36:08]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah. And there's a lot of you. And when you. You can read all this vulnerability in there. This kind, you know, this vulnerability, this fear that women have kind of undue power over their bodies, over their sexual presence, and Also their sexual futures that women can, you know, know, can do all these things either kind of magically or just by like, you know, taking all of their sexual energy from them, you know, all their sexual juice and kind of draining them dry. And so, you know, you can read a lot of anxiety about, about what women might say about them and also this vulnerability about what women might do to their bodies and how women might. Might kind of compromise or inhibit how they can have sex in the future with other people. And so it's. It's interesting because, you know, it's really sad. It's really sad in some ways, you know, this kind of overwhelming sense of vulnerability and disempowerment at, you know, at women's hands and bodies.
- [37:16]
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- [38:30]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
It's interesting, too, because this sort of expresses a legal vulnerability as well, doesn't it? Because that's the only reason that a woman can really ask for a divorce is in cases of impotence on the part of their husband.
- [38:42]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes. And these are these trials, these impotence trials in which women are like, hey, I'm seeking an annulment of my marriage because my husband cannot fulfill his marital duties to me by having sex with me. And the court's like, okay, so we gotta prove that, right? And the woman's like, yeah, y' all gotta prove it. So how do they prove it? What they do? These are wild cases. They are wild. What they do is they will sometimes have these groups of neighbors and friends who take turns trying to see if they can induce an erection on the part of the poor man in question. Sometimes they'll hire sex workers to try all their best sex worker tricks. They'll give the man some, like, you know, like, spiced wines and, like, little spices, little medieval Viagra spices, I guess. Some like, little, like, delicacy. Some like, maybe some white bread, I.
- [39:32]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Don'T know, white bread buns.
- [39:37]
Dr. Carissa Harris
They'll give him some foods and drinks and condiments that were thought to increase virility. They'll put him near a hot fire, and then they'll either bring in their finest local sex workers to, like, try all their tricks one by one, or sometimes his friends and neighbors will be like, I tried it. And, like, I wasn't able to do anything. So it's really, really. These trial. I'm serious. These trial transcripts, these testimonies are just wild and outrageous, and they speak to a familiarity that medieval people had with each other's bodies that seems kind of unthinkable to us today with people, you know, neighbors, you know, trying to, you know, get their other neighbors hard and be like, oh, did this work? Did it not work? You know, it's. Would you do that today? Most people would probably not, and then testify about it in church court. So the church is, you know, because they have to get an annulment from the church. So the church is the institution that is, you know, sanctioning and facilitating these impotence trials, which perhaps is the most wild part about it. I don't know. It's the, you know, the impotence trials, they're really something. I cannot recommend them enough.
- [40:45]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah, well, see, and this is one thing that is quite interesting because, you know, it to a certain extent, I'm making fun of all these anonymous male authors who are like, yeah, women just sit around and talk about their husband's junk. That's what happens. But we certainly know from some of these impotence trials that, for example, if a man is found to have difficulty getting it up in these circumstances, like, which I can't imagine why, like, just like, all of your neighbors are staring at you and you're gonna get divorced if you're you. If you can't make it happen, I don't know why he wouldn't be able to perform in these circumstances. But, for example, especially when you bring in the fancy sex workers and they're like, no, it's no good. They then berate the man.
- [41:23]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yes.
- [41:23]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
And, like, this enters the court register of them saying, you no good, dirty dog. You lied to this Woman you've wasted the best years of her life and they will like, shame you and tell you that you're a bad person. So on the one hand, yeah, it's ridiculous that these obscenity tales exist, but they are expressing a real worry that men have.
- [41:48]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah. And again, this vulnerability kind of associated, you know, by putting, you know, such importance on their pintles and tarses and how they work and what they do, you have, you know, these women be like, you know, you useless excuse for a man. You know, just kind of, you know, they try all their little tricks and then they don't work. And then they just, you know, shame him and humiliate him and. Yeah, and then report this in court so that he gets to be re. Humiliated in court by having these recounted and written down for all posterity for, you know, for us to. To read and cackle at today. It's really.
- [42:20]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
I'm like 100% partaking in this. Like, this poor man. I'm like 100 years later, I'm like, oh, good God. Although, to be fair, I want to shout out to this dude in question, they shouldn't have done you like that. You know, it's not a fair trial. It's not. But okay, so here are some of the most famous obscene tales. Do you have any favorites that I have not drawn out of you thus far?
- [42:49]
Dr. Carissa Harris
So what I really love are obscenities in these defamation case, like legal cases, Those are a whole other category. And so, you know, in the middle Ages, you could take someone to court, court who called you A and be like, you know, because that impacted your standing in your local community. If, you know, if your neighbor calls you A because she didn't like that, you, like, threw out your dirty water in front of her house, then other people will think you're a. It might impact your chances of marriage. It might make your husband think that you're cheating on him and it might bring, you know, it might kind of get you in front of church court as a result of these local rumors. So people took insult, obscene insults very, very, very seriously. And they're kind of legally actionable. So I love these because they kind of give a window into the things that medieval people thought were really offensive. And let us kind of see how obscenity worked socially. There was this one case that I was looking at actually like a week, you know, last week in London. It's not super obscene, but it's funny anyway. Or I thought it was entertaining anyway, that this one woman, you know, it's in Latin. So it wasn't as fun as, like, the English ones. As women sues this other woman, she's like, oh, this woman, Margaret, she called me a whore. And she also said that I stole her herbs. And I was like, not the herbs.
- [44:02]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Not the herbs. No, girl, no.
- [44:04]
Dr. Carissa Harris
But, you know, you have really, really colorful ones. And so you have these. This one woman is like, you're a bitch.
- [44:11]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yay.
- [44:11]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Worse than a bitch. Or worse than a bitch. Where you have these two women kind of attacking this other woman. And what do they say? They call her a common whore, A pintle in pencil out whore, a friar's whore, a monk's whore, and a priest's horror. All of these. And so you have these cases where you're like, okay, pencil in, pencil out whore. Like, that is a work of art.
- [44:38]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Wow. I mean, these women were cooking. What could I say? So you put me onto. I think it's kind of. It's possibly 16th century. There's a woodblock cut about a case of obscenity like this, where there were these two women brawling in the street in London. They're, like, beating each other up and calling each other whores and being like, come out here and I'll batter your head. And the thing of it that I think is really interesting is that everyone agrees that this is very bad and naughty and this is the sort of thing that ends you up in court. But people are like, quick, make a wood block. We're gonna. We're gonna circulate this. Because there is still this admission that it's kind of funny, too.
- [45:19]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah. That there's this kind of public spectacle in having these. Because these also happen, you know, kind of what made them legally actionable happen in public. They happen in the street. They happen at the marketplace. You know, sometimes they're accompanied by, like, you know, one woman, like, hitting the other with a salmon. There's. There's this one Scottish case where a woman hits another woman in the face with a salmon to accompany her obscene insults. And so you have these cases that are public, you know, in front of people, in the marketplace, in the streets, that are, I would assume, entertaining for people. And it at least gave people something to talk about for a very long time and continue to, I guess. But the obscenity is kind of part of that. And then the obscenity enters the court record and then gets to be repeated again in church court in front of these men, you know, adjudicating and writing things down who are part of the Catholic Church.
- [46:09]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah. This is an interesting one, right, because we are using this as a form of entertainment, but it also is kind of telling us about where the limits of society lie. So, yes, these are obscene things. These are legally actionable things. These are things that are riding right on the limitation of what the public can accept. But at the same time, the public is really eager to learn about them or tell these stories or to make that woodblock cutting. Right. Because of that specific tension. Right?
- [46:46]
Dr. Carissa Harris
Yeah, yeah. And they reveal, you know, kind of the content of these insults reveals a lot about kind of what people assume. Your example, you know, you have the priests whore, monks whore, friars whore. You have these kinds of anxieties or kind of stereotypes. Not stereotypes. They're actually not stereotypes about predatory clergy or clergy who totally do not observe their vows of clerical celibacy and are just having sex with people, even though they're not supposed to be having sex with anyone. But you have. That you have in Scotland, starting after syphilis becomes. Starts spreading in Scotland, you have, you know, and syphilis in Scotland at this time was called the Glengor. And to be syphilitic was to be Glengory. And so you start seeing Glen Gorrit or Glengory or Glengor showing up in these obscene disputes. So you have this one case where someone calls someone else a Glengorry bitch or a syphilitic bitch. And so you can, like, track these things that are happening, you know, in a public health front by seeing how Glen Gore or Glen Gore syphilitic shows up in these various combinations of fantastical insults.
- [47:55]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
See, but they got me because I'm laughing so hard at the idea of calling someone a syphilit bitch. You know, that's. I'm sorry. It's good stuff, guys. Like, we're just. We're not making insults like they used to. It's so cutting, but to the point where it's so obscene. Like, it's. I'm laughing because it's just so over the top top as to become comical, right? It's. It's so incredibly cutting and incisive that I can only laugh because I'm like, what is going on? You know, I know.
- [48:25]
Dr. Carissa Harris
And that they're between people who know each other, who live with, you know, who live next door to each other or near each other, who do business together, who have to, you know, it's like, you know, you have to borrow some, you know, some grain from this person. You have to, you know, you have to buy this other thing from this person. So These are people who are. Whose kind of everyday lives are intimately intertwined, calling each other these scathing, outrageous, obscene things. And I think that kind of interpersonal dimension too is something that makes them so objectionable as well. The fact that these are kind of between neighbors, between people who do business together on a daily basis, people whose kids know each other, play together, that kind of a thing.
- [49:04]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Yeah, I mean, it's a small town life at the time. So you can understand why these things then end up in. In court. Because really, if this sort of word gets around, that is your reputation. Absolutely done for. You know, if everyone's going around calling you a sympolytic, how do you come back from that?
- [49:22]
Dr. Carissa Harris
How do you come back from that?
- [49:26]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Oh, God. You know, I fundamentally girls more than how do you come back from that? I'm like, how do we top that? So I think we gotta just call it in. I know. Oh, Carissa, you are the light of my life. This is one of the most important literature phenomenons that has ever existed. Thank you so much for coming on to talk about it.
- [49:49]
Dr. Carissa Harris
I mean, thank you for letting me talk about one of my favorite things. This is great.
- [49:53]
Dr. Eleanor Yanaga
Thanks once again to Carissa for joining me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History hit. If you were interested in obscenity, why not check out our past episode on medicine, Medieval Sex. It's somehow slightly less filthy. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film the Medieval Apocalypse, released weekly and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcast. And tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time. AI is transforming customer service.
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