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- [00:01]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
- [00:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.
- [00:05]
Matt Lewis
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
- [00:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
If you would like to listen to.
- [00:09]
Professor James T. Palmer
Gone Medieval ad free and get early.
- [00:12]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Access and bonus episodes, sign up to.
- [00:14]
Matt Lewis
History Hit with the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries such as my new.
- [00:21]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans.
- [00:25]
Matt Lewis
Or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
- [00:29]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
- [00:32]
Matt Lewis
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show Notes for this episode.
- [00:50]
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- [02:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennifer and welcome.
- [02:25]
Professor James T. Palmer
To Gone Medieval From History Hit, the.
- [02:27]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we.
- [02:44]
Professor James T. Palmer
Delve into the rebellions, plots and murders.
- [02:47]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That tell us who we really were.
- [02:51]
Professor James T. Palmer
And how we got. I probably don't need to tell you that people in the medieval period thought about monsters a lot. After all, when we think of the medieval period, we conjure up stories of knight slaying dragons and rescuing fair maidens. As fun as those stories are, and as much of a place as they undoubtedly held in medieval society, there were a whole host of stories about dragons and dangerous monsters from which rescue was almost impossible. And the fair damsel, in this case, she's the opposite of a maiden, and it turns out that she's a monster herself. Today we're talking about the monsters of the apocalypse or the book of Revelation. There is a host of beasts lurking in the last and most enigmatic book of the Bible that can challenge a modern creature feature. And they loomed large in the imaginations of medieval Christians, helped along by the fact that they were popular art motifs and they inhabited the warnings of preachers far and wide. Today I'm joined by Professor James T. Palmer, an expert on apocalypticism from the University of St. Andrews, to talk about all things monstrous and to get you wonderful listeners ready for my new special, the Medieval Apocalypse, out this month on History Hit tv.
- [04:32]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, James, hi. Thank you so much for coming on to talk about one of my favorite things, which is little monsters. Little monsty guys.
- [04:40]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, monster guys.
- [04:41]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
You know, the normal way that most people get into medievalism is by being interested in little monster guys. And both you and I have then been dragged into the subcategory of medievalism where, you know, you could put a really worthy face on being interested in apocalypticism because fundamentally this is an intellectual movement. But I'm going to be so real with you. I just want to talk about the little monsters.
- [05:11]
Matt Lewis
The little monsters are everywhere. You can't just have end of the world where it's just like normal people. That's. That's not scary. Apocalypse has to be scary. It needs monsters.
- [05:20]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Exactly.
- [05:21]
Matt Lewis
Isn't this why we have zombie apocalypses now? It's different to medieval, but it's still monsters. Gotta have bad guys.
- [05:27]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
We're absolutely still doing the apocalyptic monsters thing like that. That is just a matter of fact. But I think for medieval people, we've got this real understanding that there are certain monsters that are going to show up at the end of time, which is, you know, the apocalypse is the great revealing at the end of the world. You know, we all know the world is going to end if we are Christ. That is just how it works.
- [05:52]
Matt Lewis
That's how that is.
- [05:53]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And so all sorts of terrible things are going to happen at the end. But there's definitely going to be a lot of monsters at the time. And we know this because of the book of the Bible, the Apocalypse or Revelation. And can you just tell us a little bit about that and how it is we get all these little monster men?
- [06:09]
Matt Lewis
The book of Revelation is a series of mystical visions that St. John has on the island of Patmos. So the monstrous is a very important part of this, setting up the conflict between good and evil. At the beginning, he sees angels and he sees churches, and they kind of talk him through not what will happen, but as mystical visions, kind of giving us a sense of how this conflict will work and what kind of battles will have to happen to get to Judgment Day when everyone can get to the heavenly Jerusalem at the end. So the apocalyptic monsters are absolutely central to introducing the theme of good versus evil. There's a dragon. There's a horrible monster. They are connected to Satan. And the forces of Satan and Antichrist are going to be riding around on monstrous horses with the heads of lions. It's everywhere. So this is a good sense that it's not just sinners and the good guys, and the sinners will just be normal people. That would be a very sad, underwhelming apocalypse. It has to be more dramatic. All the way, way through the Middle Ages, people say, well, you know, there's plague now, there's wars now there are signs in the sky. There are eclipses. Does that mean it's the end of the world? And people have to keep coming back and saying, no, you'll really know when it's the end of the world. It will be twice as terrifying. Everything will be completely bonkers. So all the crazy stuff you see now, that's just for starters. It was going to get so much worse.
- [07:48]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And like, no one is saying the Black Death isn't bad. We can all agree that it's maybe a sign that the end times are coming. I mean, and when I say we all, I mean, you know, people in the 14th century.
- [07:58]
Matt Lewis
Well, if we were there, we would.
- [07:59]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Say, I very well might because I spend all of my time thinking about this, like a great many medieval people do. But on the other hand, there are no dragons. And so I. What are you saying yet? Yet. Okay, so can you give us a cast of characters? Because you've already brought up the dragon. I think he's the number one apocalypse baddie. Right. And the dragon in particular is kind of seen as Satan, Is that right?
- [08:27]
Matt Lewis
Yes. Well, there's a couple of creatures that come In. But the dragon, he is classically red, as you would hope, and he is leading the bad guys in the final battle. He has a big fight with the Archangel St. Michael. What you want having a big dragon in the battle but having angels to fight him? Because there's the dragon and there's the beast because it kind of flips halfway through.
- [08:53]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And this is. This is the thing that's interesting, right, is that you do have the dragon, who is a really important monster and bad guy in the Apocalypse. And he kind of comes out and he's generally identified by preachers and biblical exegetes, who are the people who sit around and. And read the apocalypse all day long and say what it means with Satan himself. And he is a cool, badass red dragon. Usually he's got nine heads. A pretty cool guy. Pretty cool guy. We all like the dragon, but you're right, he flips halfway through. And suddenly you have this other monster come on the scene. And that is the beast of the Abyss. And can you tell us a little bit about him?
- [09:35]
Matt Lewis
Where he has leopard spots, obviously.
- [09:40]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Obviously.
- [09:42]
Matt Lewis
And he is fierce like a bear. He's furious like a bear, and he's like lion. And he's strong. I mean, the kind of collective sense of evil is these are the people who are going to lead the forces of evil at the end. And for the beast of the Abyss as a kind of representative Satan, well, he's going to be bound with Satan for a thousand years and thrown into the dark imprisonment. Although in medieval images, it's often a tower. It's almost like they don't know what a valley is. Put him in a tower, but it's still a prison. So they're thinking it's prison.
- [10:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Do you know what? If I'm going to have to draw a valley or a tower, I got to go for the tower every time because it's more interesting. So fair enough. Fair play. You know, that's artistic license, baby.
- [10:29]
Matt Lewis
So, yeah, yeah, it's.
- [10:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And then you have these two monsters who wreak a lot of havoc. There's going to be several confrontations between said monsters and the good side. So at first it is St. Michael the Archangel, but then at the end of the world, it's kind of like the spirit of Christ's mouth and things of this nature. But they're really interesting because when you read the book of Revelation, you're introduced to these guys and they're like, wow, big monsters. But medieval people aren't satisfied with wow, big monsters. They're like, who are These people, right? And so they identify the dragon with Satan, and then they usually then identify the beast of the abyss with Antichrist who is not underlying Satan.
- [11:15]
Matt Lewis
Not Satan. Well, I think there's some puzzlement because there is no Antichrist in the Bible. He's not in the Book of Revelation, but he is a character that they like to talk about. He's the antithesis of Christ, but he's not the antithesis of Christ because he kind of looks a bit convincing as a Saviour figure while leading people astray. So it looks and sounds like he might be Christ but doing bad things. So where is he in the End Times narrative? And if he's not the other characters, he must be one of the mystery beast things. And so this is the thing about having great mystical images like this is that they are so open to interpretation. And these Biblical exegetes, the people reading you were talking about, they're kind of interested in just taking the imagery and saying, okay, so literally, this is a monster. But what this signifies is all these other kind of bad guys. And with Antichrist, the one time he does kind of crop up in one of the letters in the New Testament, it's like, there will be many antichrists. Well, I mean, they just go wild. You're an Antichrist and you're Antichrist. Anyone I don't like is an Antichrist. And they were symbolized by this monster. And anyone who opposes me, the good guys, the end of time, well, you're a kind of Antichrist and you are in league with the beast. And so then they have the Beast of the Apocalypse is racing around leading this entire army of evil bad guys.
- [12:41]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oh, yeah. Everywhere. And they are everywhere. Right. And I suppose then you get these layers of meaning then, that are placed on top of both the dragon and the beast. So, for example, the dragon is usually associated with, you know, the concept of spiritual evil, I guess. So, you know, the really. The Big Bad, the original, you know, the snake in the Garden of Eden, Satan himself and hell. And then the beast is usually associated with kind of worldly power and worldly evil. So there's. There's almost a bifurcation of ways to think about these two monsters then as well.
- [13:16]
Matt Lewis
That's why the beast has the proper army with the bad guys on the weird horses. But then there's also kind of. It lends itself to some nice symbolism as well, because it's. This is the. What is supposed to have seven heads? Heads. Because they like to think about the progression of history towards Judgment Day. Each of the seven heads might represent a different kind of Antichrist. So there's this classic exposition of it in Joachim of fiore in the 12th century, in the time of the Crusades. And they're thinking, well the first one, well that's obviously Herod because he was a bad guy. Well obviously then there must be Nero because he persecuted Christians and they have a whole load. And the sixth head is Saladin because he's the leader of, of the Arabs against the Christians in the Crusades. And then the seventh one is the Antichrist, the final one. And so they like that kind of numerical imagery. Then they can play around with it. So you've got an evil bad guy plus numbers. Oh maybe the sequencing and that gives a pattern. Isn't it great when the apocalypse can have a pattern rather than just being this kind of open ended fluff?
- [14:23]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And that's a really important thing to medieval people is they absolutely love numbers involving the Apocalypse. You know, there's kind of a way of thinking about the world and thinking about the way that it's made, which is saying that there are kind of numeric codes that you can use to work out about the monsters. And you know, quite famously one of these things is the mark of the beast that is going to be written on the Beast of the Abyss's forehead. Right?
- [14:50]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, 666. They're going to get into really kind of like the numerological values of symbols to get that out so they can bring out who that might be as well. And people start play around during the fall of the Roman Empire there's a whole thing about whether it's one of the kings of the Goths and that they play, oh, does it mean Gaiseric or It might mean Geiseric, he's quite bad.
- [15:12]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah. And then you get all this association with basically as you say, anyone who's a political enemy. So by the time you get to for example the split, split between Avignon and Rome, it's you know, whoever the other Pope is, that, that guy, that guy is Antichrist, you know, and so.
- [15:28]
Matt Lewis
What'S the difference between an anti Pope and an Antichrist? They're clearly the same.
- [15:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Same guy, same thing, you know, same application. And you also see the people who kind of like are scrambling around trying to associate these monsters with varying things. They're also like, I'm afraid I don't have enough monsters and I also don't have enough numbers. So interestingly, a lot of the ways of depicting the beast or talking about Antichrist or Talking about Satan. Don't. From the Book of Revelation, they dig deep into the Old Testament as well, don't they? Because they start reaching into the Book of Daniel. Because there were not enough monsters, right? And the Book of.
- [16:07]
Matt Lewis
Because there are not enough monsters.
- [16:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
The Book of Daniel's got really good monsters in it.
- [16:11]
Matt Lewis
Well, the Book of Daniel is almost like the favorite apocalyptic text because there are two. The two different bits. One doesn't really have monsters, but it has this really scary statue. And Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of four elements and. And says, well, these four elements will be the sequence of four kingdoms. And Daniel interprets this for him. But then when the monsters come in, this previous dream seems to have got into Daniel's psyche and he has his own mystical vision of these four monsters coming up out of the sea. There's a lioness with eagle wings and there's a bear with three rows of teeth and wants to use the teeth. Leopards with four wings and four heads. And then as if like, those are quite terrifying to me. But that's the fourth one. And then an actual terrible beast will rise up and it will have iron teeth and it will have 10 horns and another little horn on top of that. This little horn is classically Satan as well. And the ten horns will be a sequence of ten kings. Spits over into this whole apocalypse apocalyptic fantasy universe of how there will be an empire will be divided into kings, and then people will fight amongst themselves and terrible things will happen. But the four monsters will be supposed to represent Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Classically, people play around with what they mean at different times, but they're taking them as a sequence because they come out of the water in turn, this gives them another plan for history. And because most of the people commentating on this are Christ lives during the Roman Empire. So the Roman Empire is clearly the last one. It's the last terrible beast. Which makes sense at the very beginning of Christianity where Christians are persecuted by the Roman Empire, it's the worst one. They want to. Even though this is an Old Testament vision and they're only living in the last times. If the Roman Empire is there and then the Roman Empire has gone, or what happens to the terrible monster? Are they the terrible monster?
- [18:14]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
This does get thrown around a lot, right? For example, if the Pope is quite mad at the emperor, which they are want to do, then suddenly the emperor is a representation of the beast and. And he is Antichrist. And you know, you do see, then the Danieling monsters sometimes creep into representations of the end times. So I've definitely seen, even in a modern context, people using the leopard with the four wings when they are talking about the apocalypse. And I'm like, well, she's not even supposed to be here. She doesn't go to this school. You know, she's. She's from the Danieling vision. So it will get brought in. And medieval people do that same thing as well. They kind of chop and change all of their favorite monsters. It's kind of like, you know, Godzilla fights Mothra or Godzilla fights, you know, Rodan or whoever. You have the same thing in like.
- [19:06]
Matt Lewis
It'S great to have a typology, isn't it? So again, going back to the horns, the ten horns plus one, and said the little horn is Satan again. So people are going to like, are you the 10th? Are you the 11th horn? Are you the little horn? And so very easy to slip that into a world in which you're thinking in terms of typologies of evil using all your imagery from the Bible and just go, you're Antichrist. You're like the little horn. You are a beast.
- [19:33]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I think that there's also something here about art. Right? Because when you have. If you sit down and you read, for example, the Danieling prophecies, it's not kind of easy to imagine what this monster with all the horns and the little horn looks like. They're like, and then there's 10 horns and then there's a little horn on top of the other thing. And you're like, what? You know, as a non artist, it is kind of confusing, but I think for medieval artists, this gives you a lot of room to play around. You know, in the same way that you might make a tower that the beast and the dragon are imprisoned in, as opposed to a valley, you might say, oh, okay, well, I'm gonna make a weird little monster and he's gonna have all these horns all over the place. And then this is gonna be, you know, a really kind of fun thing to depict.
- [20:18]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. So one of my favorite manuscripts, really vivid thing produced in 10th century in Spain, is the Morgan Apocalypse, which is. It's an illuminated copy of a commentary on the book of Revelation. You'll have seen pictures of it if you've ever looked at medieval images of the apocalypse and monsters, because it's lusciously yellow and orange and the monsters themselves are incredible within that, the beast of the Apocalypse, with its seven heads, each one is a separate color. There's a little green one and a blue one, orange and what's also beautiful about that, thinking about this in terms of, in relation to Daniel, is that it also has an illustrated book of Daniel in it as well. So the same artist has got really excited and so he's got his little leopard with his wings, and he's got the ferocious bear, weird monster, and the terrible one with teeth, which doesn't actually look that much scarier than the others.
- [21:16]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
We've already gone so hard on them being scary.
- [21:19]
Matt Lewis
We've only gone so hard into how terrifying the monsters are, having all the terrifying monsters on one page. And this is 10th century Western art, so it has a nice kind of cartoonish feel to it, to our modern sensibilities, but they're not going for realism, they're going for an evocation of darkness, even though it's kind of really orange and red and blues all over the place. And those images are fantastic. And what they are also really fantastic for us is they're not just in these very learned books that three monks read. Once we know that, they also used exactly the same kind of images on church walls. And you and I went to that church, St. Mary's in Kempley, down in Gloucestershire, and they had a dragon of the Apocalypse on the wall as well. And then that's brilliant because then you in the audience, when you're listening to sermons about the end of the world and being told, you must do good, otherwise you're going to burn in hell, you've got the beast up there and like the beast, see, that's the beast. Now you can imagine the beast. So for people who aren't very artistic, like you say, who are trying to imagine this, then you've got all these visual aids. You probably do get these lavishly illuminated books of Daniel and Apocalypse out to show people. You know, we get them out, like show and tell time in church to inspire people so they can really imagine it so that they don't have to use their imagination to a certain extent. It's there in the books and it's there there on the church walls.
- [22:52]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, I think that that is such an important point because certainly these are stories that people are being read all the time. You know, you're going to be thinking about the Apocalypse and all the monsters therein, you know, especially at like, Advent, the traditional time of year to. To think about how the world is ending. But you're also going to be sitting in churches where there are big displays of the scary monsters, because, again, artists like that, you know, it's funny, if you get commissioned to make A scene of something and you're gonna go swing for the fences, right. You're gonna be like, all right, okay, well I'm gonna do. I'm then the end of the world and I'm going to draw the big dragon because of course you are. It's a fun thing to do. Right. And so that ends up being the thing that gets reproduced in the thing that people see all the time.
- [23:38]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. And another bit of art that sometimes slightly different context that is kind of fun is maps. Maps of the world, they can be quite apocalyptic too in the Middle Ages. And sometimes you get them in churches, sometimes you get in courts. Probably one of our favourites is the Hereford Mappa mundi. Oh, wonderful. Lovely thing. But that's got Judgment Day at the top. Christ is sitting in judgment at the top, surrounded by the people of the apocalypse. And then below that, just this well, is the expulsion from Eden. And then as you cascade down through the map, you get monsters, monsters, monsters, some more monsters. Here are some griffins, here are some dog headed men. And then you get to where the people live. People have gone through expulsion from heaven and that they got through a universe of monsters and now they live over around the Mediterranean. But for history to be completed, they're then having to go back to the heavenly Jerusalem, back up to Judgment Day at the top of this picture of how the world's supposed to work back through the world of monsters. It's going to be challenging. But again, it's this sense that to get to the end of the world, to get. People want to get to the end of the world, it's not just a completely horrible thing because at the far end is the rewards for heaven. It's supposed to be nice in heaven. It's peaceful, it's what you want, you know.
- [25:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, we're all aiming for heaven, right. And you know, we're told repeatedly in the book of Revelation, we're told that actually if you live through this time of monsters, then you are so lucky because it's essentially expiating your sins. If you are living cheek by jowl with the beast of the abyss, then God is like, hey, fair enough. That's the equivalent of living through purgatory. You are already doing whatever it needs to be done to expunge all your sins. And if you remain faithful, then you are going to be absolutely fine when we get to the final judgment and you are going to be able to be in heaven with him forever. So to a certain extent, even though it's terrifying and awful, you're really lucky to see all of these scary monsters, right?
- [25:52]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. I'm going to be punished more than other people. It's the book of Job expanding outwards across the rest of history, which is probably appropriate because one of the popular books that inspires not just the book of Job, but Pope Gregory the Great's Moralia in Job, which sets out this kind of eschatological vision of house suffering is pretty good thing for exactly these kind of reasons. And that has monsters in it too, because like behemoth turns up as a bare moth, will be Antichrist and you'll all be punished for your sins. It'll be great. Yeah, those last days, really horrible. Can I bring in a non biblical text that people love? The Apocalypse of Pseudo Methodius, 7th century Syriac text, which is well being read in Latin translation as early as the 8th century. And they get super excited about. This has monsters too. It starts off it's in Syria, it's after the Arab conquests, which were also earlier in the seventh century. And it's written by somebody who's quite grumpy that Christians aren't in charge of everything anymore. And what he's actually really angry about is the fact that most Christians and most Muslims actually get on together fine. And he wishes that they wouldn't. But the Arabs aren't the bad guys really. They're not the monsters. What he fantasizes about is that one day a great leader will wake up as if from a drunken slumber and chase the Arabs away. And that's done. And then monsters will turn up and he fantasizes about the monsters. The monsters will be the worst things ever. They will leave dead bodies rotting in fields and they will eat creatures that you shouldn't eat, like scorpions. And it will be really bad. You shouldn't eat scorpions. These are the hordes of Gog and Magog and they are in the Bible. But all they do in the Bible is they turn up for like two sentences and it's like. And then the hordes of Gog and Magog will appear from all four corners of the Worf and they'll do terrible things in conjunction with Satan and then they'll get destroyed by God.
- [27:48]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, they do.
- [27:50]
Matt Lewis
They barely get a little bit an anti climax. But they're supposed to be terrible. So in this then they kind of create this whole universe. Okay, so where are Gog and Magog? I've not heard of Gog and Magog. And in Pseudo Methodius he places them not in the four corners of the world, but he places them in the north in 7th century Syria. This kind of riffs off this whole thing about the legends of the great king Alexander the Great great and he is supposed to have hidden lots of barbarous peoples and monsters behind these great bronze gates and the Caspian gates. And so at the end of time the gates will open and these monsters people will flood out all over the places. And most of them, we don't really know anything about them, but they do include dog headed men. So then dog headed men are running around all over the place and that's even scarier.
- [28:56]
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- [31:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And Gog and Magog, they are kind of monsters themselves and they get depicted rather a lot even in early modern art. So it's super, super common. If you see for example a clock tower and it's got two big giant guys, that's usually Gog and Magog. So for example we've got a Gog and Magog here in Lond London at Guild Hall. There are big Gog and Magog out front and it's sort of a reminder of everyone that oh, the time is linked to the end of time and there's going to be these terrible giants that open the gates. So you've got, you've got a monster baked into that already, which is very funny because again, as you say, it's like, oh, and then Gog and Magog will release the hordes. No one says they're a giant. And medieval people are like, oh, I feel like those guys are giants.
- [31:54]
Matt Lewis
Or make them even worse. They always have to be one step. The thing about the monstrous peoples in this case is that there's a kind of significantly pre Christian thing about who lives on the peripheries. And you can see this back in our Hereford map of Monday actually if you look around the edge of the map there's all these little islands with blemmies and there's all these strange little shrunken creatures or people with only one leg or fauns and satyrs are a bit closer up to Greece, but all these kind of griffins. There is a little island with dragons on them just off the Persian Gulf. Fabulous. And yeah, dog headed men in it. But then there's an entire section up in the north where you can see that Gog and Magog have got the gates and they're there to be shoved in the corner as well. But what this kind of helps to illustrate is because they're all, all on the edges of the known world. It's a classic. There be monsters. We don't know what goes on beyond those mountains. Anything could happen. And of course this creates this wonderful travel liter as well, which is only quasi apocalyptic. When people go, whoa, we went on, they see a great imaginary journey to see if we could. It's like Bordelino, Umberto, Echo. The further you get from the known world, the madder it gets. All these weird creatures all over the place as they're searching for Prester John. All part of this apocalyptic narrative, but also just part of the Mysteries of the east and the mysteries of the unknown world. The apocalypse is unknown. Going abroad is unknown. It's the same thing.
- [33:26]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And you can kind of understand from a medieval Europe, European standpoint, there isn't that much of a difference between hearing about an elephant and hearing about a monster, you know, because they're like, oh, yeah, it's the size of a house and it's big and gray and it's got a big long nose like a snake. And everyone goes, wow, okay, well that's, that's a monster, right?
- [33:46]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, exactly. If you've never seen one before, you know, one of my favorite, the Emperor Charlemagne in the, at the beginning of the 9th century, there's this whole universe where he's fighting against Vikings. Vikings are themselves kind of linked with dog headed men and they're up in the north, so they're kind of apocalyptic as well. So he takes an elephant because why this is being given as a present by the Caliph of Baghdad because they've never seen one before.
- [34:14]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Let's scare them.
- [34:14]
Matt Lewis
It's like you think you've got apocalypse sorted with your dog heads. I've got apocalypse sorted. What is this? It's an actual real living monster. But of course, which they've had to source from thousands of miles away. So you can play around with the exoticism. Exoticism is beautiful when it's in court and it's all friendly, but you take it into battle, it's absolutely terrifying. That's why you don't want to end up in a battle against dragons and things as well. Because we've seen enough sci fi fantasy stuff to know that's always the wild card that swings the battle. Same in the Middle Ages.
- [34:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And you have the same kind of imaginary terror of the monstrous that is certainly on display, for example, with other things in the book of Revelation. So just in the same way that Gog and Magog get a sentence, then everyone goes, oh, wow, yeah, that must be a bunch of giants who have control of a bunch of monsters. You have certain things like, for example, the locusts, right? And you and I, when we hear the term locusts, we're like, oh, yeah, when grasshoppers get out of pocket and start flying, that's. That's what a locust is. But that's not what people are imagining locusts to be when they're talking about the apocalypse, right?
- [35:23]
Matt Lewis
No, I mean terrible things swarming all over the place. Again, it's the rumor. I mean, how many locusts do people come across in any one time? This is one of the first big locust plagues after Egypt that people were really right about. In the year 873, there's this big surge that comes all the way through Europe and it comes through Italy and through Germany and through France and up into Ireland. And everyone is absolutely besides themselves with absolute terror because it's part of this series of events which wipes out a third of the population of Europe, so it is said, without even plague being involved. But they are monsters and they're like. They're like a foot long and they've got giant teeth. Of course, the sound as well then adds into a whole world of buzzing. And the number of times you get apocalyptic texts where often heretics were often possessed by flying buzzies things and then start running about is that again, horror movie style. Buzzing is heresy. The madness and creating this entire sonic universe of darkness. It's not just, there's a monster and that's Satan, and we'll have to deal with that. There's an atmospherics to it as well. And bugs and plagues. Because in the book of Revelation, there are plagues of things flying around. The angels are flying around dumping horrible plagues of nastiness all over the people just to kind of really stir things up just how special they are to be punished in this way.
- [36:53]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
This is the thing, right, is that all of this is all this monstrosity is obviously linked with Satan, is linked with, you know, hell, but also it's being allowed to happen by God. Right? This is part of the design. The idea is that God is like, well, the universe is going to end sometime and we're specifically going to end it like this. And so, yeah, like, get your monsters out, like throw some plagues in there. You know, we're going to. We're going to let all of this happen. And I think actually one of my favorite monsters, I mean, she's. She's kind of like monstrous, but I think she counts as a monster. But my favorite girl personally of the Apocalypse is our queen, the of Babylon. That's the, you know, technical term for her. We don't like to use the W slur around here, but that's what she's called.
- [37:37]
Matt Lewis
That's what she's.
- [37:37]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That's what she's called. And you know, she's being punished for being a chick with hobbies, which God forbid that women drink the blood of the innocent and corrupt the world with their fornications. But she shows up and she gets to ride the beast of the abyss, which is kind of like my favorite thing for her. So she's got this great chalice full of every iniquity in the world and the bloods of the innocents and she's riding the beast of the apocalypse. And so she gets to show up as this kind of bloodthirsty monster woman. And I just love, love her. She's got great fashion sense.
- [38:13]
Matt Lewis
There's some great art for the goes with this as well. It looks like she's doing some kind of exotic dance. She often has to have her arms absolutely out straight either side of her to keep her balance. Because you would if you were on a giant beast. And the beast's kind of very, it's normally kind of very S shaped. It's not just a flat thing behaving like a horse. Your balance is needed. But yes, create a double whammy that. Because otherwise the gendered aspect of apocalypse is you're all these monstrous people who are often very male coded and Satan obviously male coded. Where do women fit into this? As a universe of darkness as well.
- [38:55]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I guess, I think it's quite funny that when we're going to come up with a girl monster, it's because she's sexy. It's like, you know, the real monster was the sexy ladies that, that we met along the way.
- [39:06]
Matt Lewis
You know, back in Pseudo Methodius. One of the things that people are doing is that they're dressing effeminately.
- [39:14]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oh no.
- [39:15]
Matt Lewis
Oh no. Definite sign of the end times.
- [39:21]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
We definitely get this in 14th century Apocalyptic literature as well. So for example, quite famously the Bishop of Rochester Thomas Brinton writes in his sermons when he's explaining the plague, that one of the reasons why the plague has happening is it's the end of the world because dudes are being too sexy and they're wearing really pointy shoes and super tight tights and so they're behaving like women and it's too sexy. And so now God has to punish the world and, and yeah, so this kind of effeminate masculinity is also a real apocalyptic worry and, and, and indeed monstrous. You know, it's, it's monstrous to have shoes that pointy.
- [40:00]
Matt Lewis
You know, back with our Vikings as well, it's not quite apocalyptic but leading towards apocalypse. When the Vikings turn up and there's all these letters go, oh my word, the Vikings, this is the end of the world. Letters that people are writing are like, so this is definitely your fault, isn't it? You were dressing nicely. It's a similar kind of thing. Were you listening to stories about monsters and this guy gets. Were you reading Beowulf?
- [40:26]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oh, naughty. Oh.
- [40:29]
Matt Lewis
Were you enjoying Beowulf?
- [40:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
No. You're not supposed to enjoy that. You know, that's.
- [40:34]
Matt Lewis
No. If drinking and dressing. Yeah, dressing up and sometimes say effeminately or in flashy way or pointy shoes, what they really mean is just like, you're not being very boring. Can you be wearing sackcloth and feeling very sad? Various different versions of this throughout the Middle Ages. What the people who really make a big noise about this normally want is everybody to feel very sorry about everything all the time. And so by saying things like, if. It's almost like parenting, you know, if you're not good, the monsters will come and get you. If you spend all your money on clothes rather than saving it, the monsters will come and get you.
- [41:31]
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- [42:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And, and this is a real, you know, it's an interesting one because when you see apocalyptic preaching. So you know, a lot of the apocalyptic preachers that I've worked on, you know, like your Thomas Brinton, like your John Milch of Grimmigeesh, my boy, etc, they usually don't go around saying, okay, this, there's a monster that's going to come out from underneath your bed at the end of the world. But what they will say is, oh, well, you know, the piece of the apocalypse, he's rather like this situation.
- [43:19]
Matt Lewis
Yeah.
- [43:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And they'll bring up a political situation and they will ordinarily kind of ask you to equate these two things like this monster at the end of the world who is certainly real and a sign of the end times, but also a political situation that they don't like, an individual that they don't like. And they will say, oh well okay, well this is, this is all a metaphor, right. And I, I think that that's quite interesting because there's a tendency to think that medieval people are really rather simple and that they are not very intelligent, which know, endlessly frustrating but they are completely capable of holding these two concepts at the same time. So on the one hand there's going to be these monsters at the end of the world and on the other hand really what is monstrous is, you know, treating people badly. Is a king that is taxing unfairly or are the members of the clergy who don't do a good job of looking after their flock. Right. And we're meant to appear equate the monstrous as those things as well. Right, exactly.
- [44:19]
Matt Lewis
And it's creating the moral color of the world, isn't it? So sermons, you know, my sermon friends, people like Caesarius of Arles and Augustine of Hippo, they do exactly the same kind of things. They're a little bit sketchy. What they don't want you to do is to think that the barbarians coming into Rome and running off with all the gold, even though that's technically owed to them, was. That's not Gog and Magog. That's not the Gog and Magog. We're not necessarily in the Bible right now. We're not living out part of the Bible, but it's that kind of thing. And so their servants are like yeah, it's not the thing. But it's like that. And there will be many. It's still an evil to be fought against and it's still a lesson to be learned now that these bad things happen to us because we have been bad, bad. Augustine's doing this little tour after the Gothic sack of Rome in 410. We're doing various different versions of this was bad. This was punishment. We need to think about what we have done, how we can improve ourselves. So we think about. Very good at saying but if you look back through Roman history, like when the Carthaginians turned up, that was bad. They were punishment as well. And we fought that battle against the Persians and they were bad as well. And to just build up this whole cast list of all the bad guys in history and because they're not attached immediately to the end times as a lived experience doesn't mean they're not that kind of thing. It will build up through all of history. Satan is always at work. And if by barbarians coming over the hill and killing you, you die. You go straight to Judgment Day anyway. So there's no escaping Judgment Day.
- [46:02]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
At Judgment Day. I think the Judgment Day paintings are some of my very, very first favorites in terms of apocalyptic imagery because you get a lot of cool little demons and monsters in those. So you know, at, at, at Judgment Day you're going to get. The main thing that's going to happen is the Archangel Michael is going to show up and tell you that he's very disappointed in you, right. But then he's going to sort you. Your, your soul is going to be weighed in little scales and then either you're going to go off to his right into heaven. Fantastic, great, good for you. Or you're going to be dragged down into hell for all eternity. And oh mate, you get some really good monsters dragging people down to hell.
- [46:36]
Matt Lewis
I was actually looking at this wonderful picture of Judgment Day from this illustrated book for Emperor Otto III who's emperor in Germany in the year 1000. It's all gold, Everything is gold and it's wonderful. And Christ is in majesty at the top of the page surrounded by the angels and Michael is there and they've got these very long lists of who is going to be saved and who is going to be damned. The ultimate father Christ. Obviously a nice list. Oh. But then down at the bottom of the page in the bottom right hand corner they've got these incredibly like, almost like dog headed demon beasts escorting people down into hell. And some art historians think that one of the people they're dragging down, this young man, is that supposed to be Otto III himself Because he's talking to an older woman, maybe that's supposed to be his mother. And so this is kind of like has the artist just super political. It's like dear Emperor, if you don't you are going to be dragged by these terrible dog demon things. And that they are actually really quite scary. And a lot of effort has gone into them as you would in a super deluxe gold image. And then all the way to the left hand side of that. So covering the bottom half of the picture, these slightly green zombie like figures coming out of boxes. The resurrection of the dead looking a bit startled. Something have found themselves very green and zombie like walking around at the end of time. But it's a fabulous overall picture. The super saved at the top, the demonic monsters down in the bottom and everyone panicking in between.
- [48:17]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
But hell itself is Kind of a monster in a lot of apocalyptic depictions as well, because you get the hell mouth, right?
- [48:26]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. Again, we were looking in St. Mary's in Kempley and they had some lovely images of the sinners being dragged. And so it's like. It's like being eaten. Giant monster in its own right, this cast of demons everywhere. And the demons are loving it as well. This is part of. It's quite easy to. Or the demons, well, of course they like it, but it's the inversion for people. You're supposed to be horrified at the idea of creatures who are actually enjoying getting people and tying them up by their feet and poking them with sticks. And they do get very graphic with these rows of sinners being suspended over things with exotically very horned beasts bouncing around, thrashing them. And that's not what nice people, nice, respectable people should be doing.
- [49:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, so this is quite interesting because I went to Angers to look at the 14th century apocalypse Tapestry there, which is just incredible. Absolutely beautiful. And some of the finest renderings of all of these monsters that one could ever hope to see. And it's very clear that the people who made it are also trying to kind of get out in front of enjoyment of these images as well. Because, you know, look, I'm there for the monsters, right? If you show me, everyone's there for the monsters. I just want to see the dragon. I want to see the Whore of Babylon. I want to see the Beast of the Abyss. I want to see all these. These little guys, you know, when I show up and they have this character that's kind of built in that they refer to as the reader who is sort of like a regular person who's like, now, now, stop, stop that. You know, or occasionally, you know, the archangel Michael is looking at you as the audience and being like, now, woo, you better not be liking this dragon that I'm spearing right now. So it, it's quite funny because there seems to be this understanding on the part of the artist that, yeah, you're here for the monster show, but you also have to reign people in because it is delightful fundamentally to see these things. It's fun to be scared and then go back to a safe environment, right.
- [50:38]
Matt Lewis
Back to the actual composition of the Book of Revelation. It is told as this series of like, we're going to show you some scary pictures, John. So the illuminations of them are always really funny because the. It's. John is sitting with a pen, writing stuff down, looking a bit nervous, which just always for me reminds me that A lot of these images are not just. You don't just leave them around so your average person can come and look at the tapestry or anything like that. You kind of control access to them a little bit. These opportunities to have the person standing next to it saying, what you should be getting out of this pitch is this. Yes, it's the difference between going around an art gallery and going, look at that cool thing, and actually having to go around the tour guide and stuff. So the symbolism we're supposed to be getting from this is we have not spent half of the monastery's earnings on this incredibly elaborate gold stuff with tapestries and whatever, just so that we can be entertained. It's supposed to save your soul.
- [51:44]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And it's quite funny because obviously the way that we relate to these things now is primarily as entertainment. And, you know, I am the worst for this. You know, I am 100%. I want to see your hell fresco. I want to see your apocalypse fresco. If you have any little monster guy anywhere who is medieval, I am going to show up at a point in time and have a look at these things. And yeah, I'm only relating to it as entertainment. You know, I'm. I'm every. I'm every medieval monk's worst nightmare because I'm just having a nice time time. And I. I think it strikes me as interesting because that's really changed, but I guess that I still want to kind of say, you know, for audiences now that's. That's also okay because, for example, St. Mary's in Kempley, which I really think is. Is such a great place to go and have a look at the frescoes or going to Angers and seeing this incredible tapestry. You know, the. The largest extant medieval tapestry. People don't necessarily go see these things because I. I think that they think I don't really have enough understanding of the Apocalypse. I'm not really sure what I'm looking at. And. Okay, yeah, there's a lot that you could learn. If you could go around with the tour guide, you're going to learn a lot more. But, baby, I'm here to tell you, you can just go and enjoy the monsters.
- [52:56]
Matt Lewis
Yeah.
- [52:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
If you want to go, I got no problem with that.
- [52:59]
Matt Lewis
That's fine. Just go enjoy the medieval imagery. All the. All those funny little details in books of hours that people like to post on the Internet of, like, snails getting up to weird things and just. It' the magical world of the monstrous in medieval imagery. Just enjoy it. It's there for fun. You don't have to get all the symbolism. I mean, look, some of it's supposed to be silly. They haven't done these incredibly imaginative, creative things, always with the most seriousness of heart. They've done it. There is a bit of whimsy and a bit of fun. We can do the other thing. Make the Middle Ages. It's not just like scary and other. And everyone was very deeply devout. But yeah, some of those monks, they had incredible senses of humor. Just the extent to which we mentioned Beowulf. Things like Beowulf only survive because some monks write them down and things like that. There's a lot more fun and celebration of imagery and just every now and again people have to be pulled in. But I think that there is a lot more trying to engage people in lots of different ways back then, just as there is now. And it's like one way is not going to capture everybody's soul.
- [54:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Look, obviously Godzilla is a parable about Japanese people's discomfort with the nuclear age. We, you know, that that's one way of relating to Godzilla monsters. But you could also just be like.
- [54:21]
Matt Lewis
But it's also just a big monster.
- [54:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Monster monsters. And I don't. And I don't need you to. To have the full understanding of what every single layer of apocalypticism is. It's okay to just have a nice time. That's fine. I'll let everybody.
- [54:35]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, exactly. Well, and I think the use of the monstrous is very interesting in that kind of context for the people at the time as well, because people could make a lot more of it and don't always. So then. So there's clearly like, we could get rid of all the monsters. Because some people do. We'll do sermons where basically we're just going to say, remember your sins. Remember fire. You will get burned if you commit sins. And that's very bad. You don't have to say there's a beast. No, it's one bit in the middle. You don't have to mention Gog and Magog. Not everyone's going to fight Gog and Magog. So when people do this and they go. And so there's incredible things and there's a dragon and there's all sorts of. That's supposed to way. It's actually supposed to be insane. Are they. So then people are actually like, there's a dragon.
- [55:19]
Professor James T. Palmer
Oh, yeah.
- [55:21]
Matt Lewis
Can I see this?
- [55:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
You know, fundamentally, whatever gets the feet through the door, I think that's kind of what the church is going for. For as well. And if you can, you know, change some hearts and minds, Fine. But everybody knows monsters sell.
- [55:34]
Matt Lewis
Monsters sell always.
- [55:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
James, thank you so much for coming and talking to me about probably my favorite thing ever.
- [55:40]
Matt Lewis
And Mike, thank you very much for having me.
- [55:42]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Such a pleasure.
- [55:45]
Professor James T. Palmer
Thanks for listening to Gone Medieval from History hit and thanks once again to James for joining me. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries including my incredible new show the Medieval Apocalypse and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.
- [56:38]
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