Owain Glyndwr, Welsh Rebel

Summary

Gone Medieval – “Owain Glyndwr, Welsh Rebel”

Podcast: Gone Medieval (History Hit)
Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Dr. Eleanor Janega
Guest: Dr. Hrun Emlen (Aberystwyth University, specialist in Welsh Medieval history)

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode dives deep into the life, legend, and legacy of Owain Glyndwr, the last native Welshman to hold the title Prince of Wales and leader of a major early 15th-century revolt against English rule. Glyndwr’s place in both history and myth is explored, covering his upbringing, the social and political forces in medieval Wales, the scale and ambitions of his rebellion, and his enduring significance to Welsh identity.
The discussion unpacks both the facts and the folklore, offering listeners context for Glyndwr’s impact and why he remains a pivotal figure in the Welsh imagination today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Owain Glyndwr: From Fact to Legend

• Opening Context: Shakespeare’s Henry IV Part 1 paints Glyndwr (as “Owen Glendower”) as a wild, magical figure.
• Dr. Eleanor Janega: “He did manage various political feats that were no less astounding, including uniting a fractious Wales to his cause, laying out a vision for Wales as a cultural superpower, and keeping a rebellion against the powerful English alive for years on end.” (03:28)
• Glyndwr is shrouded in legend, which can obscure the man himself, but the truth is almost as impressive as the myth.

2. Early Life & Welsh Political Climate

• Post-Edward I’s conquest, Wales of the 14th century was marked by:
  • Subjection to new English laws and rulers
  • Distinct legal status for the Welsh
  • Social and psychological effects of the Black Death and periodic famine
• Dr. Hrun Emlen: “It is a complicated but also a very turbulent time, a time that’s ripe for rebellion.” (07:33)
• Glyndwr was born into noble families descended from pre-conquest Welsh rulers; this heritage comes with both privilege and lingering frustration over diminished status.

3. Glyndwr’s Ambivalent Loyalties and Opportunities

• His early career included military service for the English against the Scots and French.
• Emlen: “Many of his followers were people who were pillars of the establishment before the rebellion.” (11:01)
  • Even those who benefitted under English rule joined him, driven by deeper grievances.

4. Home Life, Poetry, and Prophecy

• Glyndwr lived comfortably, presided over poetry (hugely important in Wales), and cultivated both poets and prophets.
• Prophecy was a critical part of Welsh culture post-conquest, fueling hopes for deliverance and hero-figures.
• “We know that Glyndwr probably paid more attention to these prophecies than most because we know he had a personal prophet as well." (12:50)

5. Trigger for Rebellion

• Personal and collective injustices, especially around disputes with rival Lord Grey of Ruthin (land, legal injustices, possible setup for disloyalty).
• “And in a sense, that was the trigger, probably for him personally, but he represented a lot of injustice that people across Wales were facing.” (16:10)

Memorable Moment:

• The rebellion begins in 1400 when Glyndwr and 15 companions proclaim him Prince of Wales at his home, Glyndyfrdwy.
• Dr. Emlen: “You go right to the top. You don’t say, ‘Oh, well, we’re going to complain and see what happens’—you know, yeah, we’ve got to change the world and that’s what they try to do.” (17:24)

6. Uniting Divided Wales

• Historically, Welsh dynasties often fought among themselves; conquest ironically made unification easier by simplifying rival claims.
• Glyndwr’s own lineage meant he had the “best claim” to leadership after the old dynasties' extinction post-conquest.
• Intermarriage and family networks helped the rebellion’s message and alliances spread rapidly.

7. International Alliances and Ambitious Plans

• Early in the revolt, Glyndwr reached out to Scotland, Ireland, and France; all had historical ties as antagonists to England, and previous Welsh princely bids had also sought French support.
• Janega: “He doesn’t just keep this as a local Welsh affair—he immediately starts reaching out to other major personalities, right?” (20:54)
• French military aid arrived in 1405; together they campaigned in South Wales and briefly invaded England.

8. The Tripartite Indenture: Breaking Up England

• Glyndwr allied with the Mortimers (a family with a rival claim to the English throne) and the powerful Percy family from northern England.
• Emlen: “Basically it’s an agreement between Owen Glyndwr, the Mortimers, and the Percies to divide England between them.” (34:50)
  • Glyndwr’s projected rule would have included large tracts of western England.
• The scale of ambition was remarkable, showing how open power dynamics were at the time.

9. Vision for Wales: Universities, Parliament, and Reform

• Glyndwr aspired to a Welsh parliament and two universities—radical for the time, especially locally (none existed in Scotland yet).
• He surrounded himself with capable, educated advisors (bishops, diplomats, lawyers).
• Notably collaborative, not autocratic: Glyndwr consulted with assemblies and drew on a broad coalition.

10. Longevity and Impact of the Rebellion

• The revolt persisted much longer than most medieval uprisings: the organized rebellion lasted from 1400 to 1409, but residual activity and claims to power continued into the 1420s.
• Emlen: “One of the things we think of the rebellion—we know it failed and therefore we think…it’s like one of the other rebellions that might have happened. But…to think that it was successful for a while and that it lasted so long…I think it’s something that people might probably find surprising.” (45:14)

11. Cultural Output and Legacies

• The court produced little poetry compared to expectations (possibly due to upheaval), but Glyndwr's letters are “angry,” vivid, and articulate his vision.
• English chronicles show both dread and grudging admiration; English border communities sometimes paid Glyndwr “protection money.”
• He was quickly mythologized as a wizard—possibly as a way to rationalize his mysterious elusiveness and the weather frustrating English armies.

12. Glyndwr in Folklore and Modern Memory

• Myths—e.g., Glyndwr sleeping under a hill like King Arthur, waiting to return—persist and have meaning beyond mere historical facts.
• Throughout the 19th century Welsh cultural revival and up to modern independence movements, Glyndwr has been reimagined to suit each era’s needs.
• Emlen: “What he represents is more famous than what he actually did, I suppose.” (57:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Welsh Divisions and Unity:
  “The Welsh as often as not fighting one another more than anyone else, to be honest.” (17:57) — Dr. Hrun Emlen
• On Personal Injustice Triggering Rebellion:
  “There are various stories, but something happened which secured sort of injustice for Glyndwr…that was the trigger, probably for him personally, but in a sense, he represented a lot of injustice that people across Wales were facing.” (16:10) — Dr. Hrun Emlen
• On Ambition:
  “You go right to the top. You don’t say, ‘Oh, well, we’re going to complain and see what happens’…we’ve got to change the world and that’s what they try to do.” (17:24) — Dr. Hrun Emlen
• On Dealing with Myths about Glyndwr:
  “I’m not quite sure how many people actually believe that he’s a wizard…there’s so much of interest concerning him anyway.” (50:54) — Dr. Hrun Emlen
• On Glyndwr’s Place in Welsh Identity:
  “He’s another representative of Welsh identity, of Welsh sense of nationhood. Absolutely.” (57:11) — Dr. Hrun Emlen

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Welsh historical context & Glyndwr's upbringing:
  05:35 – 10:26
• His early career and Welsh social dynamics:
  10:26 – 12:04
• Prophecy and court culture:
  12:19 – 15:26
• The spark of rebellion:
  15:26 – 17:24
• Uniting Wales & his family’s role:
  17:30 – 20:54
• International diplomacy and alliances:
  20:54 – 26:40
• The Tripartite Indenture:
  32:26 – 36:02
• Ambitious reforms: universities, parliament:
  36:02 – 42:11
• Duration and afterlife of the rebellion:
  43:45 – 46:04
• Cultural output & English perceptions:
  46:04 – 50:34
• Legends, myths, and modern memory:
  51:35 – 57:29
• Glyndwr’s meaning for modern Wales:
  56:15 – 58:32

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Tone and Style

The tone is lively, accessible, and often playful—especially as Dr. Janega marvels at the ambition and “audacity” of Glyndwr's moves. Dr. Emlen brings scholarly insight with a deep respect for both the factual and mythical sides of Glyndwr, emphasizing his continued relevance for Welsh culture and identity. Both participants blend rigorous historical analysis with an enthusiasm that makes the medieval world vivid and contemporary.

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Useful For

Listeners seeking a comprehensive, engaging introduction to Owain Glyndwr—his real achievements, the roots of his legend, and his continuing cultural echo in Wales and beyond. No prior specialist knowledge needed; the conversation combines scholarly depth with approachability and humor.

Transcript

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

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[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

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[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

There's a new release to enjoy every week.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show notes for this episode.

[Mario Lopez]

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[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

The wrongs we must right, the fights we must win, the future we must secure together for our nation. This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us. We are Marines. We were made for this.

[Mario Lopez]

Foreign.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jarnega and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. In William Shakespeare's play Henry IV Part 1, a fearsome magician and skilled military tactician is introduced of him, the romantic and doomed Harry Hotspur. Percy says, oh, then the earth shook to see the heavens on fire and not in fear of your nativity Diseased nature oftentimes breaks forth in strange eruptions oft the teeming earth is with a kind of colic, pinched and vexed by the imprisoning of unruly wind within her womb, which for enlargement striving shakes the old bedlam earth and topples down steeples and moss grown towers. At your birth, our grandam earth having this distemperature and passion shook. This fearsome character is Owen Glendower, based on the actual factual Owain Glyndwr, self proclaimed Prince of Wales. Unfortunately, there is very little in the way of evidence that would lead us to believe that he had magical powers that allowed him to control the wind and that an earthquake accompanied his birth. But he did manage various political feats that were no less astounding, including uniting a fracturious Wales to his cause, laying out a vision for Wales as a cultural superpower, and keeping a rebellion against the powerful English alive for years on end. Today we're focusing on Glyndwr because he's incredibly cool and many of you have asked us to. But also in a new series of documentaries on history hit professor Michael Livingston is getting up close with some famous medieval rebels. You can watch the film about Owain Glyndr right now if you're a subscriber. There's a link in the show notes for the episode, but I couldn't let Michael have all the fun. So today I will be chatting about the real Owain glyndor along with Dr. Hrun Enlin, a lecturer at Aberystwyth University and specialist in all things Welsh Medieval run. Welcome to Gone Medieval.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Thank you very much. It's great to be here.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

We are so excited to have you on because this is one of those fan favorite sort of conversations. We're going to talk about the man, the legend, Owen Klinber. And I think we have to start off by acknowledging that his life and his rebellion are legendary at this point, which is why so many people want to talk about him. But it's sometimes difficult to scrape beneath those legends and the mythologies in order to get at the man himself. So can you paint us a bit of a picture about who he was before the uprising began and the sort of political, I guess, situation that shaped his early life?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Okay. Wow, that's a big question.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, that's all.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

That's.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I'll just do that.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah. Fantastic. And you're absolutely right. I mean, he's become a myth, he's become a legend, and I suppose we can talk about that later if you want as well, because it's so fantastic and such a big contribution of who he is is this, this mythology that's developed around him. But yeah, to answer your question, I think it's really interesting context where we find Owen Glyndurs who being raised in the 14th century in Wales. So 14th century Wales in a sense is very interesting period. It's a period where Wales is really changing. So 100 years before the Glyndon Rebellion, Wales had been conquered by Edward I. And obviously that was then a dramatic change for people in Wales, certainly being ruled by a king of England. So that's a, that is a dramatic change. You know, change in law for many people change as well in how the status of people. So you know, you had a different legal status often if you were Welsh rather than English. So a lot of changes going on. And of course on top of that, you know, what else is going on in the 14th century?

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

You know, just a few things, you.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Know, so Black Death and everything else else going on as well. And so I was in that context where you know, the Welsh have been conquered, they've sort of, well they, they feel that conquest a bit and then of course everything else goes wrong. You know, Black Death comes periods of famine and so on. And I suppose people in Wales look back and think, well this didn't happen before we were conquered. And so, you know, it is really is a complicated but also a very turbulent time, a time that's ripe for rebellion.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

So this has got to have knock on effects for someone as a person as well. You don't come through the 14th century without being a little bruised, I guess, being a little bit, you know, let alone when you are also dealing with what a new occupation looks like, what with dealing with new rulers, new sets of legal codes, all of these things. So do you think that this is something that has knock on effects for how Owen himself encounters the world?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, probably. I mean he was born well in the 1350s, so you know, things. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I suppose, yeah, he was young, you know, he would have been a young child when the plague came back with the children's plague and things like that. So children particularly vulnerable at that point. But I suppose he lived in a time where things had settled down a little bit since the, since the conquest. So people have started to get used to it. But it's quite interesting that he's from families, the descendants of the rulers pre conquest. So his family, you know, you can think of what sort of stories would they be telling one another how that might impact their identity as a family. You know, his father was from the royal dynasty of Powys in mid Wales, his mother from the royal dynasty of de Haidbarth in the south. So he's been brought up in this context where this family knows that they used to have higher status. They're still obviously much better off than most people around them. And yet, you know, there must be this feeling of frustration growing up and, you know, of worlds turning upside down with, you know, the Black Death and everything else. And I suppose, you know, in that context, if you're trying to find your way in the world, you know, we know that Owen Glyndure was a soldier. He fought in the English army against the Scots and against the French. He probably didn't mention that when he later allied with them.

[Mario Lopez]

But.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

But he had, you know, he. So that was one way you could sort of succeed and do well in this new context in Wales. So he did that. But, you know, he might be. Still be frustrated that he didn't. That didn't lead him anywhere, really. It didn't allow him to probably have the status that he. He felt he deserved.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I think that's a really interesting point, because we have a tendency, especially as a result of what he ends up doing with his life, to sort of imagine that people are diametrically opposed to their rulers or their conquerors. Especially if you're coming from the ruling class. A lot of the time it can be, yes, I don't like this demotion, but still, there are ways to sort of make my way up in the world. And we see people change sides all the time. You know, I'm thinking about, like, El Cid in Spain around the same time, who's just like, yeah, I don't know who. Who's going to hire me? And when you say this, you see this with Glyndor as well.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because many of the people, you know, himself, obviously, but many of his followers were people who were pillars of the establishment before the rebellion. So they were families who, I suppose it's a matter of working out. Well, you know, this is the situation we ruled over now by English kings and by these marcher lords. So we have to make do with the situation and what's the best way to succeed in this. In this context, we find ourselves. So. And I think that's one of the really interesting things about the rebellion. I think we can. Certainly there was oppression of the Welsh people before the rebellion, but I suppose some people were also successful. There were some Opportunities for the few who could sort of find their way. And what's then interesting is that even those who had done the best out of the situation, many of them still rebelled when the opportunity came. So not quite sure what that tells us.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, well, I'll tell you what it tells us is that, you know, the Welsh spirit is indom.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Well, of course, of course.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Obviously. Okay, so. So Glyndor's got this long military career under the English, like it's not insubstantial. But he comes back to Wales in around 1400. When he gets back, what's happening for him at home, he lives of it.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Quite a comfortable life, to be honest. He's got two very nice estates. He is an important patron of poets. Poetry is massive in Wales in this period, so we have real wealth of poetry from Wales. And Glyndour has the privilege of having probably one of the more famous and best Welsh poets of his day, you know, coming to his court and praising him. And we've got a fantastic poem praising Glyndwr's home and saying, you know, obviously it's the best house in the world. So we've got all this poetry as well. And he really is part of this Welsh culture. And part of this culture as well is prophecy. So. And this will play a part in his rebellion as well. But prophecy has become a really important part of Welsh culture. So suddenly, after the conquest, where people are looking for someone to save them, a messianic figure, if you like. And this has become a stream through the poetry and, you know, obviously this might be having an impact on him as well. And so he's part of this culture which is sort of praises the past, praises the heroes of the past, but also hope a better future. And we know that Glyndur probably paid more attention to these prophecies than most because we know he had a personal prophet as well, so someone who was with him interpreting events in the line of prophecy and so on. So it's easy for us to think that that's strange, but at the time, prophecy was very, very important.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Look, I'll tell you what. I don't think it's strange now, if I became a billionaire, I'm getting myself a profit immediately. That's my money well spent. Yeah, you know, that's a. That is such a wonderful thing. And it's so incredibly, very late medieval as well. People are. I think across Europe, you see people who are really interested in prophecy, who are really interested in interpretation of anything from what they see as the current political landscape. Or the Bible, or both things brought together. There is rather a lot of it about the shop. And I think that we have a tendency to think that that's sort of wild now, but in a lot of ways it's its own kind of religious strand. And I mean, I do think that we get rather a lot of it out of. Out of Wales, though, don't we, as well? You know, prophecies of Merlin, I'm thinking here, you know, all of these things that have very specifically Welsh roots that go on to dominate in other parts of Europe.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay. So Owen's at home, his very nice home, that I think we can all agree that it's wonderful. And he's vibing. He's got his prophet, he's got his poets. But something happens in there, right? So there has to be at some point in time when Glindor wakes up and he says, you know what? It's time. Like a prophecy isn't enough. I've got to do it myself. What is it, do you think, that makes this tip over into action from just vibing?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah. Okay. Well, there is a debate about that as well as. As often there is about important events. There is clearly was a time, you know, 1399, 1400, you know, in Welsh history and in English history, the same things are happening. And, you know, you know, who's king of England has an impact on Wales as well. So that's part of the context. So, you know, 1399, of course, Richard II loses the crown to his cousin, becomes Hen iv. And, you know, some people, the Wales are loyal to Richard ii, so not Glyndur particularly, possibly, but others are. So it's a period of turmoil. Things are changing. And also what really goes on at that time is that Glyndurrah himself clearly faces personal injustice. And there sort of. There are various stories about what happened. He's got a dispute between him and his neighbor, Lord Grey of Rethin. And is it about land? Is it about the fact that Lord Grey had stopped the summons from going to war from reaching Glyndur? And Glyndur, as a result, seemed to be as if he wasn't an obedient vassal anymore? So there are various stories, but something happened which secured sort of injustice for Glyndwr. And even though he tried to secure justice in the royal court, he wasn't given it. And in a sense, that was the trigger, probably for him personally, but in a sense, he represented a lot of injustice that people across wheels were facing. So it's sort of one example of what many people were facing and that that was the trigger. Whether he was thinking of rebelling anyway is another question. But that certainly was the trigger. And so what happened is that 15 men got together in his home at Glyndiverdui, the house where he's named after, and they proclaimed him, you know, Prince of Wales. You go right to the top. You don't say, you know, oh, well, we're, we're going to complain and see what happens, you know, yeah, we've got to change the world and that's what they try to do.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I love that. Swing for the fences, baby. But you mentioned this, you know, he's getting people from across Wales and I think that that is one of the things that's really quite interesting about him because he really manages to unite varying Welsh factions and there have been historical divisions, ordinarily.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

No, absolutely. So Wales traditionally is very, very divided and I suppose is one of the things in, when you speak to first year students is one of the first messages when they introduce into Welsh history in this period. You know, what you need to understand is the Welsh as often as not fighting one another more than anyone else, to be honest. But, yeah, absolutely, they're historical divisions amongst the Welsh. You know, I mentioned earlier, you, his, his father's from one royal dynasty, his mother was from another. Historically, his, you know, one side of his family would have been fighting against the other, you know, so the, the Wales is traditionally divided. Sometimes a ruler comes along. So in the past there have been people like Griffith Llywelyn, King of Wales and so on. They'd managed to unite the Welsh and he managed for a while. And then after their death, you know, world splits up again. So, yeah, historically the Welsh often fought against one another, as was one of the ironies of conquest, in a way, is that it got rid of all these royal dynasties. And so in a sense, it made the Welsh more united. So it was easier to unite people in some ways after conquest than it was before. I'm going to thank Edward the First for that, of course, potential.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I don't think that any of us need to hand it to Edward the First. That's, that's absolutely fine. But it is amazing how outside forces can create cohesive units out of people who ordinarily would not get on, though. I mean, I suppose we see, we see this across history. So, you know, he's able to, I suppose, use his own person, which is uniting. I mean, and I find that really interesting as well, because that's what a good medieval marriage is supposed to do. Right, like a good, solid, noble marriage should be smoothing things over, creating alliances, brokering peace in some way. And so Glyndor, I suppose, is literally the man that he is meant to be here.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, yeah. And I suppose if you're looking around Wales at the time and thinking, well, you know, the previous Welsh princes have gone, who's left, who has the best claim was the most royal blood in him. And, yeah, because of his, you know, his parents marriage, he is the man with the best claim to be Prince of Wales. So absolutely, that really helps him then to draw people together. And if you imagine in this context within Wales, these families, they've got connections, they're trying to marry into other families of status across Wales. It means that there is a network running through Wales of these families of the same status as Glyndwr. And so through this network it's easier for rebellion to flow. So, you know, with him, when he proclaims himself Prince of Wales, are his brother, his son, his sort of brothers in law with him as well. At the same time, his cousins rebel on Anglesey, the other side of North Wales. And then, you know, he's got these family links with the south as well. So these family networks really, you know, people are loyal to their family members and that really helps to spread, fan the flames of rebellion, if you like.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

And one of the things that really manages to help him out too, is so here's a man who is very possessed of himself. You know, the minute he's like, I am the Prince of Wales, he manages to sort of break containment almost immediately. He doesn't just keep this as a local Welsh affair, he immediately starts reaching out to other major personalities. Right?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, he clearly. Well, early on, the rebellion, rebellion lasted a few weeks initially. So it started on 16 September 1400, and it lasts for a few weeks and then sort of disappears. And it looks as if it's over, but over the course of 1401, it sort of reignites. And yet during that year, then when he sort of. He's starting again, that's when he clearly is already thinking about the international element. So we have letters or account of letter wrote to the King of Scotland asking for support, to lord in Ireland to ask for support. And I suppose the context. I don't know if you wanted me to say something about the context, because that's quite, quite useful to know here. So at this point, of course, Wales has been conquered by England, Ireland has been conquered, but England's grasp on Ireland is sort of weakening at this point. Scotland is independent, has its own king, and then England is at war with France during the Hundred Years War. So I can see your face lighting up there when I mentioned the Hundred Years. Well, and so because of that, of course, it's really interesting political dynamics across Europe. And Scotland are allies of France against England. And so Glyndur is already thinking, you know, early in the rebellion, how is this going to succeed now? How can I spread this rebellion? And one of the ways he sees clearly is by getting some help from Scotland, getting the Scots involved, trying to encourage rebellion in Ireland as well, you know, trying to have, you know, attacks on England in different directions. And if he's to succeed, he needs to get help from the outside as well, because, you know, let's face it, it is going to be a David and Goliath struggle to try a Falklandure to try and beat Henry iv. So he needs all the help he can get.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

And I'm correct in thinking that he also goes to the King of France as well. Right. Which I find this so fantastic because it's like.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

It's pretty.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Pretty ballsy stuff.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Right. Yeah.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I suppose there is, you know, this sort of connection that has existed between Wales, Ireland and Scotland. You know, at the very least, we're like all my homies hate England, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But the French, that's an interesting angle to try to work.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it might seem strange to us, but I suppose this was the natural thing for Glyndur to do, but very ambitious, but, you know, he was successful as well. So it wasn't the first time that a Welsh ruler had tried to ally with France against England. So it happened first time in the 12th century. So the 12th century, the most important Welsh ruler, Owain Gwynedd, he had an alliance with France against Henry II. Then it happened 13th century, Llywelyn the Great against King John, had an alliance with France. And even just 30 years before the rebellion, there was another Welshman who proclaimed himself Prince of Wales. He was also called Owain, confusingly Owain Laugach, Owain of the Red Hand. And he was. Was a captain of Welsh mercenaries in France. So he fought with the French against the English during the Hundred Years War. He was the. Was a great nephew of previous Welsh princes. So he was, you know, had a good claim to call himself Prince of Wales and was given an army by France as well to sail to Wales to, you know, to take control. The weather stopped them, unfortunately, and they had to Turn back and he was assassinated before he could try again. So, but in that case, France had already supported the Welsh against the English. So it made sense, Glyndour then to think, right, okay, France, obviously, as the other European superpower, you know, that's where I should turn, you know, the readier in war with England. Why not take advantage of that?

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, I suppose it's also really politically savvy because by tapping into that, Glyndor is also saying, I understand the history of Wales, I understand the history of old connections. I simply. The new iteration of this old impulse.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, absolutely. And he even changed his coat of arms to be the same as the coat of arms of. Of the previous claim of the French had helped. So again, very clever in doing that. And.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

And you can see really what's in it for the French as well, like, oh, yeah, oh, this is going to wind England up absolutely no end, you know, so.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And really it. It worked for a while at least, you know, so he got French support. So they had. They formed a treaty, sent ambassadors to the French court, they formed a treaty to work together against Henry iv and they even sent, multiple times, sent soldiers to support him. Especially in 1405, there was a quite a large French army who landed in Pembrokeshire and then campaigned across the south of Wales with Glyndwr and probably getting as far as Worcester actually. So actually invading England as well as part of that.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Get him. Okay, so I suppose here is a good time as any to talk about what happens in terms of, you know, the main moves that Glyndor puts out. So he's got backup from other countries. Everyone agrees that we should be taking the fight to the English in one way or another. How does it all kick off?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, so it begins, you know, September 1400, he's proclaimed Prince of Wales and then things, you know, go quiet.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Sir, how do people respond to an actual native Welshman being crowned Prince of Wales? This has to be the sort of thing that people want to say something about, right?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously they had had native princes in the past, but the conquest had happened now. But what's interesting is we have a poem from the time of the rebellion which basically answers your specific question there. So the poet Iolo Goch was an old man by the time the rebellion happened, but he represents his own view. Does he represent others then? Quite possibly, but he's got a poem and this is how he begins responding to this fact that there's now a native Welsh prince. He says, behold a world caused By English arrogance, very often have I wished to have a lord from amongst us, ourselves. And now the time has arrived, you know, so he's rejoicing in the fact that Glyndwr has now started his rebellion. What's interesting is how the rebellion reignites again. And it's what I consider the first April Fool's joke, because on the 1st of April, 1401, Glyndwr's cousins capture the castle of Conwy. So one of Eadred I's impressive castles, they capture the castle while the soldiers are in church because it's Good Friday. So the soldiers are all being very devout, they're in church. And when they come home from church, they find that the Welsh have taken their castle, which is. Yeah, which is a fantastic trick to play, of course, but. And really, that really reignites the rebellion because it's such an embarrassment to the English crown. And people then across much of north and mid Wales think, oh, there we go, we've started again. And off they go and reignite the rebellion. And it's from that point then that Glyndwr starts to fight open battles. They win battles. And then he starts to get in touch with the Irish, the Scots and the French as well. And just over time, then for a number of years, the rebellion grows and grows as he has momentum. So first of all in the north, then in mid Wales, and then ultimately 1402, 1403, no part of Wales is free from the effect of the rebellion.

[Mario Lopez]

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[Mayra Ahmed]

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[Maddy Pelling]

Summer is finally Here. But for those of you just like me who are counting down the days until the leaves turn, the nights start drawing in and it's finally acceptable to spend a whole weekend binge watching true crime in your PJs. After dark myths, Misdeeds and the paranormal can transport you there right now, twice a week, every week.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Tudor Murder, Ancient Ghosts, Victorian Mysteries. Our podcast has you covered. I'm Maddy Pelling.

[Maddy Pelling]

And I'm Anthony Delaney. And we are friends and historians who love to find out about the darker side of history.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Join us on the scaffold for Anne Boley. Final moments. Step inside Tutankhamun's tomb, which is apparently cursed.

[Maddy Pelling]

Watch a jury deliberate the fate of the last three women to be hanged for witchcraft in England.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Find us every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. And now on YouTube. After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal is created by the award winning network History Hit. He also ends up reaching out to places that you wouldn't expect though, right, because he goes and gets a hold of some English people as well. Can you tell us a little bit about the tripartite indenture?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Oh. Oh, wow, that is interesting. Yeah, definitely. I mean, and again, that's why it's so interesting thinking of what's going on in England at the time because there's so much tension. Henry IV is king and you know, again showing how politically savvy Glyndour is that he's not just taking advantage of war between England and France, but of, you know, political upheaval in England itself. So what he does he allies with, of the Mortimer dynasty, so one of the most important dynasties in England. What he actually, what he does is he captures a representative of that family, Edmund Mortimer, in battle and manages to turn him.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

And so times the dream, isn't it, you know.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah. And so you've got this family then the Mortimers who have actually, you could argue a better claim to the English throne than Henry iv. They support him and then you've got the Percy's the most, you know, powerful family in the north of England. They're in laws of the Mortimers. They connected with them and so ultimately they support, they ally themselves with Glyndwr as well. So what he's doing is he's playing on these difficulties now that Richard II has lost the throne. Some supporters of people who look back at the Richard II's period and he's taking advantage of that and he's creating. Yeah, what, what you had referred to in the end this agree the tripartite Indenture, which I suppose if you're not familiar with this document and particularly if you live in England, it's sort of. It's a very strange document to think about.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

But I think that we have this tendency to look at history as though everything is always a done deal. You know, the way that things shook out is the way that things are always going to be. And what's great about things like the Tripartite indenture is it shows us there were. There are other opportunities available, there are other ways of thinking about things that people attempted. I think that that's really fun because people have a tendency, I mean, even with the wars of the Roses, which is crazy, you know, and there's so much that is up in the air to say, oh, this all makes sense, it was always going to shake out this way and gosh, there are some sliding doors that I really wish had come true.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Well, absolutely. And if you sometimes show a map to people of what was agreed in Tripanta Denture and sort of. Yeah, they find it difficult to grasp what they're seeing. You're absolutely right. I mean there are various points in history where people obviously planned for something different and it's. For us, looking back, with hindsight, it looks a bit odd, but yeah, just to describe what you might see, if you would look at a map of the Tripartite Indenture. So basically it's an agreement between Owen, Glyndur, the Mortimers and the Percies to divide England between them. So the Percies are going to have the north of England, the Mortimers are going to have the south and Glyndwr isn't just going to be print over Wales, but also the western part of England. So places like Cheshire, Herefordshire, Shropshire and so on. So that's basically, if that would have come true, they wouldn't really be in England, which is what might have been. Yeah, but I suppose it just again as you saying, it's sort of the, you know, the grand scale of the rebellion. It shows how, you know, the impact might have been not just on Wales, but, you know, on other parts of the British Isles and other parts of Europe as well.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah, these are super ambitious plans. And Glyndor also has this. He's really interested in the sort of stuff that I'm interested in. You know, he wants to establish universities, he wants there to a parliament. He thinks that there needs to be reform in terms of how governance works in Wales and these are kind of fairly radical ideas. But there are also things that certainly exist in different parts of Europe at the time. Where is he getting this from?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, well that's, that's fascinating because you're right, he's. It's not that he's ahead of his time. He's ahead of his time. I suppose in, well, in a Welsh context he's the first to think about these things. Things in a Welsh context and particularly the universities, although they've been around for a while. But in many parts of Europe, the new. I know sort of Prague, for example, to mention something you might be familiar with Prague. It's only fairly recently that Prague has been established so in the Holy Roman Empire. This is quite new, isn't it, to have universities. There weren't any in Scotland even though they were a completely independent kingdom. So yeah, he's really thinking about what they need to do to develop a forward thinking, a successful, a permanent principality. But the answer to your question is that he had very experienced people around him. So I mean he probably was a visionary himself, I suppose just to start the rebellion. But he had people around him who were clearly very intelligent, very experienced, who knew exactly what they were doing. And you know, certainly there were a lot of clerics around him who were among the top rung really of experience. So for example, he had bishops who supported him. So bishops who were in place before the rebellion was one Bishop John Trevor, Bishop of St Asaph. He was a lawyer, he'd graduated in law. He'd spent time in Rome working as one of the main judges the papal court. He then worked as a diplomat for English kings. The rebellion comes along and after a while he switches sides and of course all those connections, experience and diplomacy, although that's there. One of my favorite characters actually, you know, if you have, you know, sometimes you have this game where who from the past would you like to spend time with? And who I like to spend time with, like to ask questions of is Griffith Young, who is Gwyndor's chancellor. And he probably is seen as one of the people really behind these ambitious ideas and he's the one that, you know, Glyndor's plan was to have an archbishop of St. David's who wouldn't just rule over the church in Wales, but also of course western England as well, obviously. And Griffith Young, the chancellor, the diplomat as well, he was the nominee for this archbishopric. So he is a. Yeah, he's a fascinating character. As it happens. I'm in the process of. Not quite out yet, but in a few weeks time there's a book that I'm Working on with an artist down Llewellyn hall, trying to draw attention to some of these people around Glyndwr. So we've got portraits, biographies and poetry about a variety of characters who. Integral to the Glyndwr rebellion. So it's great to mention some of these people now here today.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I think that that's fantastic because one of the things that. That really strikes one about Glindor is.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

The fact that he's.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

He's a team player.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

This.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

This isn't one of these autocratic. It's all about me sort of guys, which is easy to think about, people who go around crowning themselves prince and. Yeah, surely, you know, the Middle Ages is awash with men of that description. But that isn't what's happening here at all. You have this really interesting court milieu that is working towards a really ambitious goal.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, oh, absolutely. I mean, there's no doubt that he is the leader of the rebellion. You know, he is clearly the one that's leading it, that's directing it, that people. People are following him particularly. But you're absolutely right, he's a team player and he gets all these people involved. All these people are contributing in their own different ways. You know, across Wales you have, look, leaders of rebellion, people who know their area, who command the loyalty of their population. You know, in this. I'm in Aberystwyth, in this area was a man called Gies. The. You know, he'd been sheriff of Cardiganshire before the rebellion, you know, one of the other sort of pillars of the establishment. Now the rebellion comes along, he switches straight away, you know, and joins the rebellion, and then he leads the rebellion at the local level. And you're thinking. I think you mentioned Parliament earlier, and I think it's really important to think about how Klindur is a team player in that sense as well. So we know that he held three parliaments at least. So he held his first parliament in Mechanfedd in 1404, then in Harlech in 1405, and then a third parliament in 1406. And there he had representatives from all the different parts of Wales under his control. And they were there to discuss, you know, he was consulting with people. He was, you know, they were discussing things like, you know, foreign policy, you know, what shall we do with this alliance with France? What shall we do if we're offered a treaty with England and, you know, if a truce is offered and things like that. So they really are discussing things. He's consulting, I suppose it is his decision in the end? Well, there is an element of consulting and you know, getting these people together and so it's interesting to think about, you know, these parliaments which you know, three parliaments which he held and yeah, again shows him as you know, as far as it's possible to be a team player when you're a medieval ruler, that he is the team player.

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[Mayra Ahmed]

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[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Now you've mentioned that there are these three parliaments that are held and I think that's a really important point because what it shows us is how long this rebellion is going on for. It's really easy to look at a rebellion as a sort of single action. Maybe it lasts about a month or so. You know, say you're the peasants rebellion, you know, fan favorite rebellion. One of my favorite rebellions, you know, these sorts of things, but they get put down pretty quickly. This is actually going on for quite some time, isn't it?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Oh yeah. Oh absolutely. I mean and as soon as you could debate when he finishes really, because it goes on for so many years. I mean, you know, as was his start off the first few years, 1400, 1402, he sort of, it's, it's your sort of the sort of rebellion you might expect where they're hiding in the mountains and appearing and then you know, they're disappearing again. 1403, onwards to 1407, say he is acting as prince in many ways. He's not in control of whole of Wales, but he is in many ways acting as prince. And then after that things gradually deteriorate. He sort of basically Wales is reconquered by the English crown over a series of years. And I suppose 1409, you could say it looks as if it's over. So it takes nine years for it really to look as if it's over. But it's still not over because he's still in hiding and he still has loyal followers and they're still reading into Shropshire, they're still reading in different parts of Wales. And really he's got ambassadors like Griffith Young, I mentioned earlier, he's got ambassadors representing him in France at least into 1417, trying to still get the French to support him again. And it's only 21 years after the beginning of the rebellion that his son accepts a pardon. So, I mean, that's the final act, I suppose, of the rebellion where until that point his son wasn't willing to give her. So it shows you again, it's long lasting and I think it's one of the things we think of the rebellion. We know it failed and therefore we think, as you say, it's like one of the other rebellions that might have happened. But to think that it was successful for a while and that it lasted so long, I think it's something that people might probably feel find surprising.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. And I think that when we look at output from the court and things that are happening at the time, that people really seem invested in this. They're like, oh, great, it's all happening like. So, for example, when Glyndor's Crown Prince of Wales, you know, a lot of people record this. We've got stuff from poets and writers, like, what do we. What do we see being created in terms of cultural output around this?

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, in terms of poetry, we have a few poems from the period, but actually not that many. There might be multiple reasons for that. So in terms of that, then some poetry. But what we do have, I suppose, are the letters that Glyndour sends out, these letters that contain his vision, that show his authority and that show his voice as well. And what. There's a historian who refers to Glyndur and his angry voice and you get a sense of some of the letters about how. How angry he is about the situation that people in Wales find themselves in and sort of there's this anger that does come across. But I think the contribution, I mean, the legacy in that sense, or the. The cultural, you know, the culture that comes out of this is his ideas. So the ideas that he produces that have an influence that'll speak to people, you know, centuries later, really. And, I mean, there are various attached to these documents. Of course, you have seals and sort of his seal as a symbol of what he stands for as well. So I suppose those are the cultural legacy of the rebellion.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Okay, so from the other side, what are the English writing about this? I need to know what the haters are saying.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Well, it's interesting, of course, there is a lot of animosity towards the rebellion in England. And of course, especially if you think of places on the border with Wales, they are actually being attacked. And I suppose one of the things that shows the strength of the rebellion as well is that, you know, some communities in England actually pay Glyndwr, because they say they pay him off, you know, protection money, if you like, you know, saying, well, we'll pay you if you won't attack us. But certainly there's a lot of fear. And I suppose there is that feeling in England at the time that they have to face war, war on multiple fronts. They're not actively fighting against the vengeance at this time, but they could be. There are rebellions in England against Henry IV's rule. The Scots, of course, are always invading. And now you've got the rebellion in Wales to contend with as well. So there is quite a lot of fear in Wales. There is, you know, there is even evidence of graffiti being written in churches and monasteries in England of people who, God please save us from Glyndwr, you know, so clearly there is this real sense of fear. There is also a sense, I suppose, of admiration, though sometimes in some chronicles, because there's. One example I can give you is of a man called Llewellyn Epcorfil Vaghan from Carmarvinshire. And he was someone who actively sacrificed his life for the rebellion, you know, so he led Henry IV on a wild goose chase, pretending to. That he was going to take him to Glyndwr. And after became obvious that he. He wasn't going to take the king to Glyndwr after all, he turned to the. The story in an English chronicle goes, he turns to the executioner and offers his head, you know, and, you know, and says, well, you know, I'm not gonna betray my leader. And in those chronicles and so on, you sometimes get this sense of admiration for you. Well, oh, we can Learn from this, actually. And of course there's also. So as you can imagine, we've mentioned religion and prophecy already. Sometimes they do write about the Welsh rebellion and say, well, is this a punishment he's got? So there are elements like that. But I suppose Glyntu really grasps the imagination of people in England at the time. And that's partly led to Shakespeare's depiction of him as all this idea that he's a wizard, that he controls the weather, that you think he's here and he disappears and he appears somewhere else instead you. So you get this sense, especially if you're with an English army and you arrive in Wales and the weather turns and you can't go any further and you have to turn back because of the weather, you know, is that Glyndoor, can he control the weather? You know, so there's. There's a real mystique that grows around him and it's present or it begins at least in some of the. The accounts of him in England at the time.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

So for you as a historian who's doing work on this person who, who is literally portrayed as magical at some points in time, is it. Do you know, do you find yourself being cast as kind of Captain Bring down sometimes, you know, you're having to go in and be like, that's just a guy, you know, and try to sift through all this myth.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

I don't. Anyway, there's so much that's interesting about it anyway. So I'm not quite sure how many people actually believe that he's always.

[Mario Lopez]

It.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

I don't think I've sort of. I'm choosing to very well, I suppose. I suppose I'm not quite sure how many people are disappointed, actually. Disappointed by the fact that he's not a wizard. But. But I suppose this. I mean, there's so much, you know, of interest concerning him anyway that, yeah, definitely people are. I. I don't have to feel that I'm disappointing anyone. And I suppose. Well, I suppose the disappointment might be for some people if I tell them that he's not still alive somewhere under a hill.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Surely.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Of course, there are also these legends. As you can imagine. He's like a. A King Arthur figure as well, in some sense. And there were all these legends and stories that, you know, folklore growing up around him, which about, you know, he's sleeping in a cave somewhere and all you need to do is to find him and he'll come back at the right time.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I love, I love how medieval people do that. You know, everyone Almost everyone has King Arthur, but you know, the Czechs have sinned Venusloth. The Germans have Barbarossa and it's like. Yeah, and. And the Welsh have.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, come on. It's a long lasting legend though. It's not just a medieval legend. It's sort of, you know, people for centuries be recorded in later centuries, you know, these stories about, oh, he was this cave and. And then people, of course, having their own local connection to the Glindor rebellion. So various landmarks called after Glindor. You're showing the impression he'd left on the memory of. On the landscape really. I mean, in, in the village Angry Weapon in Llangerno in sort of the middle of North Wales. And there was a legend there that he. That Glyndwr had hidden in, in. In the woods there, you know. So you've got sort of again, everywhere you go in Wales, they, they'd have their different stories about a landmark which was connected to Glyndoor and so on. So he clearly had left a deep, deep impression on people. So it's not surprising that people are still interested in him today.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Yeah. Do you find it difficult kind of sorting through the folkloric ideas of Glyndor? I guess you've got the, the cultural Glyndwr and you've got the historical Glyndwr in a way. Yeah.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

And I suppose in a sense both representing in different ways and although of course in many of these myths we might not go and say, well actually that's actually correct and so on. You know, they might not be factually correct, but they, they still represent what he's meant to people. And so they're still an important part of his story and you can see the impact he had. You know, there's a story about him, you know, after the rebellion, getting up early and walking across the hills and he meets an abbot and he tells the abbot, oh, abbot, you've. You've got up early this morning. And the abbot says, no, no, you've got up early, but by centuries, you know, and that sort of. He was a man before his time and it was so myths. So I think there are so many documents from the period that it is, you know, it's possible. I mean, how well do we know people from the period is another question. But you can certainly get a gist of what he did, what were many of his qualities and so on. So you can differentiate the myth from the time. I mean, his letters, as I mentioned before, were very, very important in trying to understand him. But I suppose we as historians, we need to be careful that we don't just dismiss all the myths about him as well, because certainly for people in later centuries, that's as much part of his story as what he actually did. And certainly he's had such an impression and certain legacy after that, that his legacy is important to consider and has an impact as well.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I think that's a really important point because I think we have a tendency now to look at myths or even use the word myth to sort of mean falsehood or fabrication. But really what myths are is explanatory stories. They're stories that help us to understand how particular cultures are dealing with something. And so it doesn't necessarily matter whether or not these stories are true with a capital T. What. What matters is that people are telling them and what that says about the culture.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And in a way, Glyndure then, has been reimagined for different people at different times as well. So you can imagine your 19th century when people are starting to campaign for universities in Wales, for a Welsh Parliament, and so on. Then he becomes that figure, that visionary figure who sort of. Who developed these ideas initially. So, you know, and then you can imagine now with. With, you know, for example, campaigns for Welsh independence, then obviously he's a figure that people can latch onto then campaigning for independence as well. So, you know, people in different periods pick on what they find interesting, what speaks to them, and so different parts of his. Of rebellion and of him as a character, you know, become important at different points in history.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Can you talk a little bit about why, what he means for Welsh people now? I mean, he's certainly one of those names that comes up over and over again when you are talking about the history of Wales and. And you can see why anyone in the 19th century would want this. You know, in the 19th century, everyone is so incredibly busy creating the national myth again, for why they are a country, why they are a place. And you'll see this all across, you know, Europe, whether it's for German unification or, you know, arguments for nations seceding from varying empires. So I can understand why Welsh people are doing it then, obviously, but that doesn't mean that people aren't still doing it now.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Right, yeah. What's interesting. So just to. Before I answer that question, what's interesting is in terms of the 19th century as well. You mentioned, in other places, they use these heroes as a way of testing themselves being an independent nation. I suppose, in Wales in the 19th century, it's not really about being an independent nation, but about showing that, you know, about developing Welsh culture, but as part of a British UK context as well. So interesting. It's sort of quite a different connotation in Wales, but I suppose if you go through Wales today, you will pass many Glyndwr flags so you can see the, you know, the people still take hold of him and today, so you'll see the red and yellow flags across Wales. And so yeah, he does mean he sort of, he's another representative of Welsh identity, of Welsh sense of nationhood. Absolutely. And I suppose people feel that he's an important part of history, whether they know much about his history or not. I mean, what he represents is more famous than what he actually did, I suppose. And now certainly he is being taken hold of now in terms of political campaigning. So as I mentioned, campaigning for Welsh independence, for example, he is a figure. He's not actually that campaign mostly thinks about the future rather than the past. But when he does think about the past, it does mention him in that context. So he does have an underlying sort of subconscious, I suppose, general place in the way the Welsh people see their identity and it is then sometimes brought to the fore when it comes to various campaigns.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

I could talk to you about this all day, but unfortunately for everyone, my face hurts from smiling now, so I'm going to tell have to let you go. But Hrun, this has been an unmitigated delight. Thank you so much for coming on.

[Dr. Hrun Emlen]

Oh, you're welcome. It's been a pleasure.

[Dr. Eleanor Jaenega]

Thanks to Dr. Hruden Emlen once again and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from history hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including Professor Michael Livingstone amazing new series on medieval rebels, as well as ad free podcasts. By signing [e-mail] subscription, you can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts. And tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.

[Mario Lopez]

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