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Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
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Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.
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Matt Lewis
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
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Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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Paul Drybrough
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Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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Matt Lewis
History Hit with the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries such as my new.
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Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans.
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Matt Lewis
Or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
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Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
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Matt Lewis
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show notes for this episode.
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Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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- [01:51]
Paul Drybrough
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:58]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I'm Kristen. And I'm Jen from the I Mom so Hard podcast. We don't want to brag, but yes, we are moms. We're average moms. Below average sometimes. But we're not just moms. And we're not just supermodels either. We're not just pieces of meat. That's right. We're not even close. We are comedians and we're also best friends. We're also best selling authors and television writers. We created a viral web series with over 300 million views. What's up? Who's bragging? And we were in our swimsuits. Again, not supermodels we're also podcasters. Are we podcasting right now? Not right now. We have been bringing laughs every Tuesday to women and moms everywhere. And one dude who's a sophomore in college, his name's Greg Whatever. He messaged us and made me feel cool. So nice. Amazing. Please listen to the Am mom so Hard podcast on Acast. Woo. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [02:50]
Paul Drybrough
Acast.com.
- [02:57]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots and and murders to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here, find out who we really were with. Gone Medieval, we left Isabella and her plans in France at the court of her brother, the King. By her side is Roger Mortimer, a figure who must now be dragged into the light. His family have forged their authority on the lawless Welsh borders, the Marches, where their word carried more weight than that of the King. That regent breeds men strong, proud and independent of mind. Roger hates Hugh Despenser and that puts him at odds with the king, who will not be robbed of another favorite. Why do they hate each other? We shall find out soon enough. Roger has escaped imprisonment in the Tower and joined his list of grievances to those of the Queen. His hard edge will sharpen the Queen's determination. She may have a way back to Edward, but the path of compromise is not one that Roger knows or cares to walk. You can almost hear his crowing pride at his victory.
- [04:54]
Paul Drybrough
The Prince. I rule the Queen do I command? The proudest lords salute me as I pass. I seal, I cancel, I do what I will. Feared am I more than loved? Let me be feared and when I frown make all the court look pale. Now all is sure. The Queen and Mortimer shall rule the realm. The King and none rule us.
- [05:24]
Matt Lewis
Pride is so often followed by a fall. The story of how Roger Mortimer, from the edge of England, clawed his way to such heights is a fascinating one. Gone Medieval's four part special on the family feud that almost destroyed the Plantagenet dynasty continues now with the story of Roger Mortimer. If you've listened to the previous episodes, you'll know we've considered the roles of Edward II and Isabella of France in the crisis. If you haven't listened to them. They're in our catalogue for you to go and look out. Now, Roger is the third piece of this jigsaw. He offers Isabella something she didn't have, perhaps in more ways than one. I'm delighted to be joined today by Paul Drybrough, who is principal record specialist at the National Archives and also president of the Mortimer History Society. Welcome to God. Medieval Paul, fantastic to have you with us.
- [06:20]
Paul Drybrough
Great to have your invite.
- [06:21]
Matt Lewis
Lovely to be here. Who better to talk about as well than Roger Mortimer? There is so much to say about this medieval man. I thought we could start with a little bit of an overview of him. He's quite often cast as this dastardly stepfather figure in English medieval history. Do you think that's broadly true? Is that fair?
- [06:39]
Paul Drybrough
I mean, it literally is what, let's say three years of his life, where that is. That is an accusation you could level at the man. I mean, obviously he's born in sort of around 1287 until 1321 too. He's one of the most loyal servants of both Edward I and Edward ii. He had a, well, let's face it, by contemporary standards, a relatively stellar military career, administering Ireland, successfully holding off a Scottish invasion there, being an important figure in the Marches of Wales, obviously related to an important local March family there and being, you know, contemporary of Edward ii, particular about similar age, attending him at coronations, supporting Edward during the troublesome early years of his reign, which we'll probably come on to with the, the, the crisis around Piers Gaveston. And it's only really until the civil war from around 1321 to, and the aftermath of that, where he's pushed into rebellion and then rebellion ultimately becomes escape from the Tower. After imprisonment, he then leads an invasion of England with Queen Isabella. They have potentially have a relationship and that leads then Roger for three years to be kind of the, the leading male figure in the country, even, many contemporaries say, acting as if he were king, being above the king, the teenage Emperor iii.
- [08:00]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, there's some juicy stuff in there that I can't wait to get further into as we go through. And I guess all of that sort of makes it surprising the significant role that he will play in English dynastic history. Given that he, for much of his career is utterly loyal and also a relatively unimportant regional magnate, that's probably fair.
- [08:21]
Paul Drybrough
I mean, obviously they are a high ranking baronial family. The Mortimers of Wingmar are related to the royal family slightly more distantly than others of the magnet community. But then, yeah, they're not one of the earls, the commodore families until 1328 when Roger himself basically noddles himself. Yeah, I mean they are, they're middle ranking aristocracy, I'd say, with, as you say, regional interests. A lot of Roger's early life until he's, let's say mid-30s, is actually spent outside of England away from court.
- [08:54]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, yeah. Do we get a sense from, from the sources of what kind of character he had and you know, how much is that influenced by the experiences of his later life when he becomes deeply unpopular?
- [09:07]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, I mean, I guess most of the character portraits come from the years, let's say 1326 to 1330. Oh, I sorry. Relate to those years. And so they are written almost exclusively with hindsight by chroniclers who are looking back on an era of turmoil, civil war and you know, the young king who would then ultimately become arguably England's most successful medieval king. Those years they had to explain away how could this, you know, this great man had this horrible sort of upbringing and this terrible individual who behaved arrogantly, he was acquisitive, violent, potentially, you know, stepped over individuals, had members of the royal family executed. If we, if we take some of the accusations relating to, let's say the Earl of Kent's execution in 1330 literally. So you know that most of the character portrayals you get of the man come are colored by the period of the minority before then. Really the main character portraits you get will be indeed the chronicle produced at Wigmore, Wigmore Abbey, the family abbey in the late 14th century. Where of course it's a much more positive. There's a lot more airbrushing of the 1327-30 period that the sort of more national based chronicles or monastic ones in life, St. Albans or.
- [10:20]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, yeah, we'll just skip over this bit that doesn't quite fit with what we're trying to say about the Morton family.
- [10:24]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, that's kind of what goes on. Yeah.
- [10:26]
Matt Lewis
So I guess if we go back to the beginning and we strip away some of that hindsight, what do we know about Roger's early life? Where is he born? What family is he born into? How is he raised?
- [10:36]
Paul Drybrough
Okay, well, I mean, the Mortimer family of Wigmore had been barons on the Marches of Wales, Herefordshire, since Doomsday. Really? They're a doomsday family. They come from Normandy, not with the conqueror directly, but they come in the wave after, after the initial conquest and for what, basically what, 200 years? It's an unsettled, unsecure inheritance on the Marches. Obviously they have the Estates in Wigmore. They have some estates elsewhere in England, Berkshire, Hampshire, some in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. But it's really as. As most of the Marcher families were in those 200 years. It's establishing their rights to their territories and their lordship through conquest and then holding off either other Marcher rivals or Welsh princes, Welsh lords who are contesting that area sort of from what is now Flintshire all the way around in an arc going round to Pembrokeshire and West Wales.
- [11:31]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. I think when I talk about the marches to listeners, I always try and frame it as this, almost like a medieval English Wild West. It breeds a certain type of hard man who considers himself slightly outside the law, that they have more control there, that they're not as touchable by the king as many other people. So it breeds a certain mindset in that area, doesn't it?
- [11:53]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah. And of course, they hold their land technically by right, that they claim by right of conquest. And so if these Marcher lordships that are carved out are held as what's known as liberties, you know, the king's writ, in theory, doesn't run, and so the king's sheriff can't go into the liberties of Radnor or Carrion Kedwin or wherever it might be the Mortimers hold and, you know, just have free reign because the. The Lord is Lord there, you know, it's not the king.
- [12:19]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. When Roger becomes an adult, how significant is his marriage to Joan de Joinville in. In terms of his rise to a more noble and more landed status?
- [12:33]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, that's a very good, very good question. I mean, the Mortimers are doing okay. They're doing well. I mean, Roger Mortimer's grandfather, who dies in 1282, he is one of the chief architects of the downfall of the. Of Simon de Montfort and the barons in the. In the Barons war of the 1260s. He's one of the first best friends. He's rewarded richly from that with extra estates on the marches, particularly in Shropshire. As Roger's becoming. Sorry, he's becoming a teenager. Edmund is able to acquire the marriage of Joan. So Joan is the granddaughter of Jeffrey de Joa, one of these great figures of the 13th century, come over from France, being one of Henry III and Edward the First's leading leading courtiers, leading military lieutenants. Jeffrey, for example, is, you know, he's. He's just history of Ireland for quite a long time. And he, you know, he even actually dies there, ultimately. So Joan brings half of the de Lacey inheritance, which is one of these great sort of transnational Inheritances going back the, the 12th century. And she brings him Ludlow for example in Shropshire, Stanton Lacey and other places, but also half of the liberty of Meath or the county of Meath in Ireland. So I centered around Trim, which is this great, if anybody's ever been there. It's great medieval castle. It's one of the most fertile, wealthy parts of Ireland to say it's worth fighting for. This kind of transforms the Mortimers from this sort of relatively provincial, well to do baronial family into this now transnational family which can compete with other commodore families. Yeah.
- [14:05]
Matt Lewis
So this, this marriage sort of puts them on the cusp of the next step.
- [14:08]
Paul Drybrough
And actually it's right in terms of, in terms of marriage, of course, it's really, it's really good for the family because Joan and Roger have at least 12 children. They have a good number of sons, good number of daughters. So Roger, later on in life we might come back to this. Roger was able to marry most of his children when he, when he attains a level of power that he didn't have before into some of the leading families of England and the British Isles, he's, you know, he really transforms what the Mortimer line was then to become.
- [14:37]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, and you mentioned that they're already fairly significant in Wales, they become significant now in Ireland. To what extent do experiences in Ireland and Wales influence Roger as he's, he's kind of cutting his teeth militarily. How active is he in those regions?
- [14:52]
Paul Drybrough
Oh, I think, I think this is, this is a key thing. So obviously until 1308 he is basically on the marches, you know, in England. I'm assuming he learns an awful lot from his uncle. So his uncle confusingly also called Roger.
- [15:05]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, because the Mortimers have that annoying naming habit, don't they, of switching Edmund, Roger Edmond.
- [15:09]
Paul Drybrough
Roger Edmond. Roger Edmond. Yeah. So Roger Lord of Chirk, he is the younger brother of Edmund, father of our Roger we're talking about. So he's Roger Mortimer's uncle. He is given the Lordship of Chirk, which is how they differentiated Roger Mortimer of Chirk and Brook Mortar of Wigmore. And Roger is this Roger Morph. Chirk is a really hard bitten, you know, he's sort of a marcher hard man. He's, he's been conditioned by the, the Welsh wars in the 1270s, 1280s. He had an important role there by the early 14th century. He is kind of the, the king's lieutenant in the Marches of Wales, in Wales itself. So he knows exactly how marcher warfare, holding that balance between military action, political Patronage, but also, you know, legal. The legal structures of the March of Wales and how to manipulate that. So I'm assuming that Roger, we don't know. He may well have, you know, grown up in his uncle's household, possibly, and he would have learned an awful lot from that. So from 1308, then, until 1320, really, Roger then spends an awful lot of time. Roger Walter Wheatbox, he spent an awful lot of time in Ireland. Firstly, obviously, he has to establish his lordship over Trim, which is, you know, it's settled, but on the margins. Ireland, again, is another one of those countries where, because there are multiple cultures and butting up against each other, there's obviously the. The native community in Ireland, there's the settler community, which has been expanding and then sort of, you know, competing since the late 12th century. And then there's the kind of the English of Ireland who are, you know, they represent the government, the senior aristocrats. So in Trim itself, the frontiers are, you know, slightly poorest. They. On the. On the margins, it's not secure. He has to take a lot of military action there over the dozen years he's there. He also has lordship over a place called Dunhamace, which is sort of west of Dublin, which is much less secure. So he has to negotiate relationships with variety of different people, including stuff from the Crown, the Dublin government, his local tenants in Trim and Dunham Ace, those rival figures on the margins of his authority who are potentially going to bring fire and sword to some of his lands, and also those other sort of lords of what they call the Anglo Irish community, those lords who are English by ethnicity, but it was born. Brought up in the Irish context. By the time you get to 1320, he's had one of the most multifaceted experiences that any of his peers would ever have had. He's probably the most diverse experience in a way, because he's had to deal with lordship across three or four different jurisdictions, with three or four different types of law that you've got to navigate. You've got competing forces, you've got allies that change and shift. You've got two different governments, you've got government at a remove, you've got your relationship with the crown in Westminster. It's very complicated, but also very few people would have had that experience. And on a personal level, of course, we don't know for sure, but we can estimate that probably a good half to a third of his children, 12 children, were born in Ireland. He's setting roots there as well as. And obviously he doesn't Spend all of his time there. It's constantly going back and forward. And after 1320, he never sets for an island again for a variety of reasons. But he's one of the few people, by the time you get to the late 13th, early 14th century, a few people from England. So at his level of society, who's spending any time in Ireland at all and actually making a considered effort to defend his territory and also to defend the lordship. So in 1315, the Scots, as part of their campaign for recognition of Scottish independence after, you know, English defeat at Bannockburn and to the recognition of Robert Bruce as king, they invade Ireland. Now, some people have argued this is a diversionary tactic to take English resources away from the Scottish marches. Other people have seen this as an attempt to kind of, well, conquer. Conquer Ireland for the Scots and to bring the. The Celtic fringe, so to speak, together. I mean, Edward Bruce, who's the. The surviving brother of Robert Bruce, he, you know, he proclaims himself king. He's crowned in May 1315, we think, and over the next three years, there is. There is a Scottish presence in Ireland. And at least twice during raids from their Ulster base into, you know, deep into Ireland, they are able to stop, hold court, plunder Trim, which is, you know, the center of Ultima's lordship in Ireland. So in 1315, Roger, he's either there he goes over there with, you know, a decent military force of his tenants. He's actually defeated for the first time. This is kind of a forgotten defeat because you think, well, later on, he actually does really well in a place called Kells in Meathead. In December 1315, he kind of flees Ireland at that point, goes back to England as part of the. The negotiations are part of his place at court and then sort of court shenanigans in November 1316, he's then nominated to be the king's lieutenant in Ireland. And he arrives the following Easter, spending 18 months there dealing with the fallout from the Scots failed attempt to, you know, take Dublin and to raid more deeply into Ireland, but then also restoring order and bringing Ireland back to loyalty to the English crown, which is no easy effort and required, not simply military force, but also sort of a keen eye as to what patronage, you know, how patronage should be dispensed, how the. How the law should be used to bring various gangs of local lineages and particularly in southwest of Ireland, back to some kind of loyalty to the crown. So he's a man conditioned, really. I think if we take. If you only think of Roger Mortimer for the minority of Eppin iii. You're missing an awful lot and you're missing an awful lot of importance to how the politics and the military and cultural situation of the British Isles plays out in, let's say, the 20 years from middle of the 1290s all the way through to about 1320.
- [21:12]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. So many rabbit holes you could dive down, isn't there, in Roger's story? I know, but I wonder if we could just think about what all of this means for his English experiences in the 1310s. So he's spending a lot of time out of England. He's at least nominally loyal to Edward ii. Is he slightly removed from all of the. The stuff that goes on around Gaveston and Edward's increasing unpopularity? Is he able to distance himself from all of that?
- [21:38]
Paul Drybrough
Interesting question. I mean. I mean, I've. When I was obviously doing my research on Roger Mortimer the first time, I noticed there is actually quite a close relationship between Mortimer and Gaveston. And so in 1306, for example. Well, sorry, before I actually go back, before then actually appears Gaveston owns Roger Mortimer's marriage. So for a while he. He has his marriage and he has custody of his lands in the thing after. So Edmund dies in 1304 until 1307, until Roger is able to buy his way out of Pierce Gaveston's custody. Gaveston is technically, technically Gaveston's ward after that. So when Edward II comes to the throne and Gaveston starts to, you know, peacock around and take all. Take all the attention at court, Roger is kind of conspicuously loyal. You know, he's getting rewards at the time that Gaveson is getting rewards. They were before actually, before Edward the First dies and Ever the Second comes to the throne. Both men were actually. Were actually forfeited by Ever the first for leaving a tournament in Scotland to go together with another group of younger men to the near continent for another tournament. So I think they are. Although I think Gaveston's that slightly bit older again than. Because he's often seen as slightly older brothers whoever the 70s. Again, slightly older than Roger again about 10 years older maybe, but they seem to have been relatively close, obviously from 1308, when Malser is less often at court, less often in the kingdom and you get the attempts to constrain Edward and Gaveston through things like the ordinances. You rarely see Roger around. He rarely has an obvious place either with the court or with the ordained. He's not one of the ordainers. He sticks away from that kind of keeps aloof, really, as far As I can tell, 1312, I think I'm fairly sure he's out of the country. So when Gaveston is captured and executed, he's out of the country, that he's in Ireland. I think there are some. It's very difficult to tell often because, you know, the sources which often are used to locate an individual at any one time, aren't they, as, you know, they're all really bitty. Yeah, they're, you know, we don't get, with the exception of the King or the Queen, maybe we don't get reliable itineraries even for the, you know, the leading members of society, really. So it's very difficult to place him there.
- [23:49]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. But there is at least a sense that he's able to disconnect himself from the.
- [23:53]
Paul Drybrough
The trouble.
- [23:54]
Matt Lewis
He's not having to pick a side, I guess, is the important thing for him. Even if he's friendly with Gaveston, he's not having to side with Gaveston and the King or side with the ordainers. He's able to sort of remove himself and sit back and let it all play out around him.
- [24:07]
Paul Drybrough
Well, we know afterwards that there is no stain on his loyalty. Edward, Edward doesn't punish Mortimer after Gavon's death, you know, when there are key national moments, he is one of the people who is around, around the King and is brought in for, I'm guessing, his experience and, you know, he's. Well, his seniority, his experience and his knowledge.
- [24:27]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. And I guess given then all of that background, how and when does he begin to fall out with Edward?
- [24:35]
Paul Drybrough
So. Well, I mean, this is going back now. So after, after the Scots are eventually defeated in 1318, in October 1318, through, you know, an army of men that mortal often brought to Ireland in many cases or had worked closely with, he then comes back, he's part of the negotiations for what's called the Treaty of Leek, which is where Edward and Thomas of Lancaster, his main baronial opponent, kind of do a kiss a piece. They agree, all going to work together. It's all great. And then Mortimer himself becomes part of the. The council, the sitting council, which advises Edward from that point on 1319. However, as part of that council, he snares himself the chief governorship of Ireland again. So for about 18 months, 1319, 1320, he's out of the country again, governing Ireland, doing a lot of, you know, what I think were perceived at the time to be good things for the order and the Ireland's loyalty, connection to England. It's only when sort of towards the end of 1320, that the marcher lords get wind of the ambitions in the marches themselves as well as nationally of Hugh Dispenser, father and son, that they start to think, hang on, what's going on here? We need to nip this in the bud. And by the time you get to like, Easter 1321, there's a full blown civil war in the offing and, you know, a group of Marcher lords basically gather together, I'm assuming, swear some kind of oath of confraternity in this and then basically go and destroy dispensers estates in the marches and, and further further afield, bringing them then into direct conflict with the Crown. But of course, they're doing this under royal banners because the line they take is that, well, you know, we're not disloyal to Edward, we're trying to remove those evil counselors from his side.
- [26:20]
Matt Lewis
So it's interesting, I think, that for all of those many, many years of experiences everywhere else, of increasing influence and loyalty to the Crown and keeping out of all of the problems, it's a threat to his march of heartlands that really drags Roger into protecting that. Which means opposing Hugh Despense, which means opposing Edward ii.
- [26:42]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That is a thing. And of course, then over the next, what, nine months, throughout the rest of 1321, early into early 1322, effectively it's a full blown civil war. There are standoffs, there are moments when, for example, you know, Edward II and his queen besiege Leeds Castle in Kent, where the wife of a chap called Bartholomew Baddlesmere, who's now one of their grouping against the King, there's a siege going on and the Mortimers decide that they are going to start attacking royal towns along the Severn Valley, because they're all sort of, they're lined up on one side of the seven. Edward and his royal forces are sort of the other side bearing the south and east. And they decide, Edward, you know, eventually leaves the siege of Leeds, goes up towards the marches to, you know, basically head them off and the Mortimers and others sort of harry them on the other side of the seven. There's no actual pitch battle, but, you know, the rebels, so to speak, do a lot of damage to royal towns, which of course then brings them directly into. Yeah, they are technically, I think, committing treason, or they will, they will eventually commit treason. And by the time you get to the early stages of 1322, somebody somewhere has a word with the Mortimers and goes, right, lads, this is getting dangerous. Now, you're in big trouble here. Maybe they decided themselves, but they are brought to the negotiating table, unlike some of the other leaders of the baronial rebellion. So Thomas Earl of Lancaster, Humphrey de Boudel of Hereford, who they work very closely with, they kind of continue the fight, whereas the Mortimers surrender. Now, we don't know in what terms they surrender. They surrender at Shrewsbury in early 2-13-22. It's possible that they submitted in the hope that Edward show them mercy, or it's possible that the negotiators for the King basically said, well, you know, we will show you leniency, come back, submit and we will negotiate on your behalf with the Crown. Of course, what actually happened was they did submit and they were basically carted off to the Tower, both uncle and nephew. We're not sure what happened to the sons immediately, but Roger's sons appear then to have been taken into captivity and taken south, firstly to Odium, then to Windsor and I think to the Tower. Ultimately, his daughters and his wife were rounded up over the next year or so. They were sent to various places. The daughters were sent to nunneries across, across England. They didn't suffer, you know, execution in a way that lots of did. The male rebels did, you know, many, many, many of the contrarians, as they were called, were executed in, you know, very public executions. Their bodies were left hanging for, you know, months as a warning to others about rebelling against this new Edward II, so to speak, the new man ever II. But the Mortimers just languished in prison. In July 1322, they were brought before a tribunal, they were tried and they were condemned to death. But despite the pleas from the community of Wales, who, you know, wanted the harsher punishment to be enacted, Edward, for some reason, and we can, I can only assume it must be because of both Mortimer's careers of loyal service to him, he commuted the sentence to life imprisonment. Now, Roger Mortimer, the uncle, he dies in, we think about 1326 in the tower, age 70. He never, he never lives to see what his nephew would go on to achieve. But of course, infamously, we get to the August 1, 1323, and Roger Mortimer is one of the few men to escape from the medieval Tower of London. And that changes everything completely.
- [30:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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- [32:06]
Paul Drybrough
If you're like me and you love history, but in particular you love the.
- [32:10]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Smutty, salacious, gossipy history, then do I.
- [32:13]
Paul Drybrough
Have the perfect podcast for you? If you fancy finding out about the slippery origins of lube or how Vikings linked sex and magic together, then listen no further. Join me, Kate Lister, on Betwixt the Sheets where I delve into the most outrageous, the most taboo and the downright sexiest parts of our history. It's the kind of history that you probably wouldn't bring up at a family lunch, but you might bring it up down the pub. From the history of swear words to answering important questions like just how incestuous were Neanderthals? And so much more. Listen, every Tuesday and Friday, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, a podcast by history hit.
- [33:09]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, he gets his own little A team style story of escaping from the Tower of London. Can you give us a quick overview of how he gets out? Do we know how he escaped?
- [33:18]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, I mean he's. I mean, there are various different accounts which Laura Tompkins had just actually kind of brought together in our new book The Mortimers of Wigmore, the dynasty of Destiny, buying all your good bookshelves. So I'm not probably not allowed that.
- [33:30]
Matt Lewis
You're absolutely allowed that play. If you don't make it, I will.
- [33:33]
Paul Drybrough
A very good one. Okay, right. In that case. So, yeah, effectively he appears to have a man on the inside and men on the outside. There is a plot. It's not simply an internal plot, it's an external plot as well. It appears that Edward changes his mind again. So a year after commuting the sentence, Edward makes it known that he's going to execute Roger. We don't know why. We think it's because there are a variety of other conspiracies at large out in the country. There are several royal castles, for example, where prisoners are either temporary release people get in, they're able to temporary release prisoners. There are, you know, again, conspiracies to free leading contrarians. And of course, Mortimer is the leading one, the leading survivor at this stage. So Edward must think, well, get rid of him. That gets rid of the problem. But he has a chap on the inside, a chap called Gerald Ulspa, who appears to drug the guards, who drug Mortimer's guards and the consummate at this feast. Some accounts say that the drug that he gives them is so strong that they're still. They're basically knocked out for two days. And the constable will tell Stephen Seagrave or Edward wants to kind of prosecute him afterwards, but actually realize he's just too ill. The story that they're telling must be genuine. He must be that, you know, that seriously ill. So effectively what happens is all the guards are having a feast for the feast of St. Peter in Chains, and they all have this drink, whatever it might be. The food's drugged, they're all catatonic. And Gerald basically somehow gets Mortimer out of his cell, either by pricing away at the bars or there's a hole. The tower's in terrible state of repair. There are hole, you know, there are holes in the wall everywhere. So he appears to have, you know, got out, got out the outer. Got out of his room possibly through the kitchens into the outer bailey, broke ladder, which again smuggled into him in a bailey, then sort of out the outer bailey. There's a boat waiting for him on the Thames that rose him a few miles, horses, then, you know, very quick ride to, we think, Portsmouth maybe, where another boat is waiting for him and that then spirits him away to the continent before anybody's even noticed. Because Edwards in the north, he's not in London. So before a search is really initiated, it's already several days have gone past and he's already on the continent by that point.
- [35:39]
Matt Lewis
And this puts him in France and puts him into the company now of Edward's now disaffected Queen Isabella of France. I guess the one thing we probably ought to just get out the way to begin with. Do you think they were ever lovers? And if so, when did that begin?
- [35:56]
Paul Drybrough
Right. Well, the answer is yes, I do, but just as just to sort of go, go back slightly, obviously when he's over there, Isabella doesn't really go to France for another year or 18 months because, you know, she herself is kind of becomes a problem at court in his anti French sentiment in England and eventually she loses her household, she loses her damsel, that kind of thing. However, Edward and Isabella don't break up their relationship. Isabella is sent to France as kind of an envoy, a peace envoy with her brother to negotiate over Edwards homage to the French king and sort of peace in the southwest of France late in 1325. Then her son is also sent over to actually do the homage. Now, at no point before then, so before September 25th, do we think that Roger and Isabella actually come into contact. I mean, they know each other, they will have known each other, they would have been in contact with each other during their earlier lives at court, but there's no real sense they ever really knew each other. The first inkling really that anything is possibly going on is I think in about February 1326 when Edward writes to Isabella and to Prince Edward, his son, to say, well, I understand that, you know, you're now taking the Council of Mortimer and he talks about their relationship being, quote, in house and out of house. So Edward is, I think quite early, has been told there's something going on or he's willing to make people believe there's something going on. I mean, other historians, I respect their views on this. There is no actual solid piece of evidence to suggest that they definitely were in a sexual relationship. But I think circumstantial, which I know you can't use as conclusive. I'm, I'm all over that. It's fine, don't worry about that. Circumstantial evidence, just, just the fact that it would make sense certainly after 1327, that their closeness after 1327, when they are almost constantly together except at key moments and Joan is nowhere to be seen. JOAN broger's WIFE it stretches credulity for me that they didn't have Some kind of relationship, whether it lasted or whether they were just, you know, they became this sort of political partnership, I don't know, but I do err on the side that they were in a relationship and that, you know, that the propaganda is just that it is propaganda but to have any kind of impact, there must be believable. It must be believable.
- [38:18]
Matt Lewis
Yeah.
- [38:18]
Paul Drybrough
Having said that, of course there are, there are also the accusations, the widespread accusations of sodomy against Edward the dispensers, which, you know, are less believable. So. But they put it right at the same time, so, you know, we've got to caveat them all. So.
- [38:32]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, yeah. So how then, once Isabella and Mortimer become politically allied, even if we set aside the physical relationship that they may have had, at what point do they decide to invade England and how much should we see Mortimer behind that or Isabella?
- [38:50]
Paul Drybrough
I think it's a combination of both. I mean, I think obviously they are, they've been, they've been at the French court, they're obviously looking for allies. They're gathering a sort of a, an army of exiles, you know, disaffected individuals fleeing England, gathering around them. Of course, once they've got the heir to the throne, then any campaign is not technically. And it's, you know, it's why you, why nobody ever talks of 1326 as an invasion. I mean it is, it's. I mean, I don't understand why people don't speak of 1326 as a successful invasion. Because it is a force of predominantly non English people coming over. They are gather this force of German mercenaries, men from ano, who is the, is the, the. The county in the Low Countries to whom Edward the is eventually married into there. There's talk of them, the scandal of their relationship and what they're planning being too much for Charles iv, Isabella's brother, and he kind of. They are forced out of Paris and they then go to ao where they come up with this, this marriage alliance in return for which the Count of AO puts his military forces, his navy at their disposal. Now, presumably throughout all of this, Mortimer and others have got contacts in England saying, well, what? How's the land lying? Edward is constantly putting out orders, look, you know, asking sheriffs and coastal watches to look out for, you know, suspicious correspondence, looking out for boats coming or, you know, at one point, you know, ships are spotted in the Channel, there's all these invasion scares. Edward is fairly sure what's going to happen. From quite an early stage, sort of the summer of 1326 and obviously they decide, I think it's fairly last minute decision obviously to invade because you've got to gather your ships together and you've got to wait for the right wind, you've got to wait for the right moment. And then they sort of set sail around the 22nd, 23rd of September from Dordrecht and they land sort of in Suffolk at the Orwell estuary on the 24th. And it's a bloodless coup effectively. There's never a battle fought over the next what, two months. Edward initially tries to establish some kind of military resistance. Arrays are called out, men are paid to raise forces, there are musters called but ultimately these musters peter out. Nobody turns up with the exception of very small number of people. Edward the Spencer and the Spencers flee west. Where they're going we're not sure. Obviously they could have been fleeing to Wales where obviously Edwards has got, Prince of Wales has got reservoirs of personal support. They could have been heading for Ireland ultimately potentially to try and raise forces there. But they don't make it obviously. They send Hugh Dispenser to Bristol to look after Bristol because it's a key, obviously a key port where they might want to bring reinforcements in. They board ship at Chepstow around 20 October 1326, but it's blown ashore near Cardiff five days later. And they're then a very small band of King dispenser. A couple of others are left wandering South Wales. They get to Neath Abbey, the Chantry rolls are left there, a lot of treasures left there in, they're in Swansea and they're eventually, you know, captured, betrayed and captured on a Welsh hillside in the middle of November. Whereas Mortimer and Isabella have literally spent two months on Brilliant. It's a brilliant campaign, both a propaganda against the dispensers, but also getting the country into a state in which it's going to accept a new regime. So they are, you know, they're replacing royal officials, they are targeting dispenser deposits in monastic houses, they gathering treasure as they go around the country. They're bringing people who they might suspect of being loyal to Edward on board with them. You know, they are granting offices, lands, commissions, custodies of defeated royalists to, you know what you like, sort of wavering earls to bring them on side. I mean one, one example is great. The Earl weren, I mean the Earl weren could, we could have a podcast in the Earl Warren. I mean he's literally the greatest survivor in medieval history. I'd say he's one of Them, you know, he survives three kings, no end of shenanigans here. He's amazing. But again, he makes sure he's on the right side at the right time. And so sort of for that two month period. So between September and the capture of the king, there are, you know, two rival courts technically, but the one with the actual power is the one which focuses on the queen. They know exactly what they're doing. They've got a really good plan. Things appear not to go wrong. They're lucky that, you know, Edward flees. He can't put up resistance because nobody comes out. For Edward, the people he thought were loyal turn out, some of them, in some cases to actually be, you know, men with connections to Mortimer, for example. So Edward at the end is just desperate and the balance totally swings very, very, very quickly and without almost any blood being spilled at all.
- [43:50]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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- [44:19]
Paul Drybrough
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron here, host.
- [44:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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- [45:07]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, I've wondered how much of the idea of actually deposing Edward comes from Roger rather than Isabella, because she's very clear that she kind of wants rid of Hugh Dispenser more than anything else. He is the straw that has broken the camel's back. He's personally abhorrent to her. Roger is in a position where, having escaped the Tower of London as a condemned traitor, if all he does is remove the dispensers and help restore Edward to power, he's still kind of condemned to death. So is he the one with the vested interest in really deposing Edward more than Isabella?
- [45:39]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, that's interesting. But he would be. Yeah, but obviously there are many other people with a similar Vested interest, technically, if you restore the King to his authority, you are risking that he actually regains power, as he does in 1322, and everything goes wrong again. I think, really, Edward's reaction to being brought to heal probably seals his fate. He doesn't want to play ball. You know, he stands on his regality. There are a variety of meetings in very late 1326, I think, and they obviously decide. The community of earls and barons together decide that. Look, unprecedented though this is, we are going to have to take the step, we are going to have to try and remove the king, but not his line. So obviously we've got Edward, we want Edward to be king because, you know, Edward is this bright new thing. You know, he's not necessarily like. Presumably he was showing as a young man that he was nothing like his father. And so obviously they also knew that, you know, until he was going to be 1821, he wouldn't have. He wouldn't technically have royal power. So obviously there are a variety of charges brought the. The. The Parliament. They have a parliament that's going to meet in January, but before then, there is this sort of camp propaganda publicity campaign in London. Everybody swears an oath of loyalty to the potential new king, to the Queen and their cause. Edward, I think he's basically offered, you know, you either abdicate or we're going to depose you. And if we depose you, we're not going to have your son as king is kind of the threat. Now, what that would have meant, of course, I don't know, because obviously, you know, Edward's half brother, Thomas of Brotherton, is one of the party around the Queen. Is he the next heir? I don't know. I mean, he would technically, he would be the heir after. Well, he wouldn't actually. John of Eltham would be. Would have been the next heir as well. But then he's also Edward's brother, so he's ever the second son as well, so he's taking Edward's line away. You could, technically, I suppose, Thomas a Brotherton might have been a choice, but he doesn't come across as any kind of entity, really, ultimately. So I think they decide that this is what they're going to do. They kind of. I don't know, it's one of those. I don't know, how would you say? It's every. Everybody swept along with it, with the exception of a couple of people. So the Archbishop, William Melton and Harmony Hyde, Bishop of Rochester, they are. They're not having it. They stay away, they will not swear an oath. I mean, William Melton, of course, is one of Edward's childhood advisors, friends. He is one of the most loyal men to Edward that, that he found and they weren't going to have this. But ultimately Parliament decides. Parliament decides to. Decides to depart. It's obviously, it's much more complicated process than we can talk about here, but it's, you know, by the 20th of January, Edward. Edward is basically forced into a corner. He's at Kenilworth in prison and he basically says, okay, look, fine, I will. I want my son to be king. And so within, you know, within 10. What is it? Within 12 days, Edward is crowned third. And Edward II in theory goes into this retired king status, of course, has never happened before. And you know, how that was ever going to be managed. Nobody, nobody knows. But he becomes like a priest. Just stays at Kenilworth, supposedly in stately confinement.
- [48:47]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, yeah. I want to get on to a little bit about Roger's role in the early reign of Edward iii. But just to finish off the story of Edward ii, how involved should we consider Roger to be in the. I don't know whether we have to say apparent death of Edward ii.
- [49:03]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, I mean, this is a really tricky one because obviously, you know, for much of the last, what, 500 years, Roger Mortimer is the architect of Edward II's murder at Berkeley Castle. He is the one who gives the order. Chroniclers at the time, say, later chroniclers kind of give him the responsibility. There are obviously, there are others who actually do the deed, of course, but kind of Roger's the man behind it. It's only recently, as of course, you know, that variety of historians have basically suggested that this, this isn't the case, that Edward did actually survive, that he lived, that Edward III knew that he lived, that they may have met possibly after his death. That, of course, would have been. Well, some of that would have been after Roger's own execution in 1330. But that, of course, some of it would have been while Roger was still alive. William Melton, who I mentioned earlier, there is a letter which purports to be in his name to the Mayor of London, Marin, citizen of London, basically saying, this is 1330, we know Edwards is still alive. Could you please provide money, boots, shoes, he's in a secure place. And it's difficult, the traditional narrative is now difficult to square with the new evidence. None of which, of course, actually negates the traditional argument. There is obviously only one is correct. He may have been murdered or he wasn't murdered, but Both narratives now have compelling arguments for them, but also questions that neither side can convincingly answer either way until evidence is found, until the actual smoking gun is found, which has not been found yet. Your academic historians tend to stick to the traditional narrative because it's kind of the most logical one. Whereas obviously the new breed of historians who have researched this in a lot more detail, I will say they have actually gone into the evidence in a lot more detail. They will not have the traditional narrative now. It can't stand, and never the twain shall meet. And I am a classic fence sitter in this one.
- [51:09]
Matt Lewis
Good for you.
- [51:09]
Paul Drybrough
You'll be pleased to know.
- [51:10]
Matt Lewis
But I guess we have to say if Edward is executed, Roger has to be behind it. And if he's not executed, then Roger has just neglected to do that.
- [51:20]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah, well. Or as has been argued, Roger and Isabella have basically kept him alive as a puppet, as some kind of puppet to keep Edward iii, his father, in their. In their pocket.
- [51:33]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:34]
Paul Drybrough
Otherwise, why would they keep Edward alive with the second alive if it weren't to flush out rebellion against them, as it does with Edmund, Earl of Kent, who is Edward II's half brother and Edward III's half uncle. Or to, you know, ultimately to keep Edward III in thrall. You know, we've got your father, Edward, you know, we. We'll kill him if you don't do what we say kind of narrative.
- [51:55]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. So having used Edward III against Edward II to get him to be deposed, it's possible you could use Edward II against Edward III to keep him in line. Maybe. So I guess just to finish off our chat about Roger, what does his time as effectively regent? He's close to the role of a regent, I guess. What does that period look like? Because you mentioned before, he ennobles himself.
- [52:19]
Paul Drybrough
Yeah.
- [52:20]
Matt Lewis
And he doesn't last all that long there. So what does it look like and why does it go wrong?
- [52:25]
Paul Drybrough
I mean, the kind of. The tragedy of it is, is that the. The campaign that Mortimer and Isabella lead for between 1323 and 1326 can be seen and was seen, I think, at the time as a noble endeavor. You know, they are releasing the country from tyranny, they're bringing the crown back to its natural subjects. But of course, the worst excesses of the dispenser regime are then exceeded by the regime of Mortimer and Isabella. So you're right. I mean, he is kind of regent, but that's never a formal title. Mortal is never, like, made keeper of the kingdom. Isabella isn't either, because obviously There is a king that doesn't need to be, but there is. There is a Regency Council, kind of a council, sorry, who supposed to advise the young king, led by Henry of Lancaster, who is the. The brother, younger brother of Thomas, who is Edward II's great rival. So it's kind of supposed to be this kind of Lancastrian restoration, if you like. Mortimer is not, as far as we know, ever on that council. And of course, that leads then contemporaries and subsequent historians to basically argue that both Mortimer and Isabella ran the country outside of this conciliar agreement, that they basically had the King in their pocket, they had access to the, you know, the chancery, the treasury, they could enrich themselves and their friends, they were able to negotiate a peace with the Scots, which actually I think is probably a sensible piece. But Edward third certainly didn't like it at the time. Yeah, obviously that. That enables, you know, Robert Bruce to settle his family as the Royal House of Scotland and resettle Scotland's independent kingdom. And they basically then just enriched themselves and their friends. I mean, Roger Mortimer, as we said, he. He isn't an earl, but he's done enough to become an earl, I think, probably, you know, in terms of what he's done for the community in 1327. But it's not until October 1328 that he becomes Earl of March. Now, Earl of March is interesting because, of course, there is an Earl of March in Scotland, but there's no Earl of March in England and in Wales, of course, and the Wales and the Marches March has a different connotation. March in Scotland, there are some liberties there, but it's not quite the same. They're not kind of outside of the royal writ in the way that some of the Welsh Marcher Lordships are. So to be called Earl of March suggests you are attempting to exercise authority over a much wider political, legal and cultural sphere than actually just if you say, if he became Earl of Hereford, say, or Earl of Gloucester or wherever it might be. Earl of Wignall. Yeah.
- [54:59]
Matt Lewis
And it's a very amorphous region as well, isn't it? You know, it changes. There's no definition to what the march is. So it's kind of saying, I'm in charge of whatever I can lay claim to there.
- [55:08]
Paul Drybrough
Exactly. And it's completely. Therefore it's a title that the rest of the earls don't, don't want, don't like. Of course, Edward iii, eventually, he's quite happy with it. You know, he actually never abolishes the earth, weirdly. And so you know, Roger's grandson, who, you know, is one of the great warriors of the 1340s, 1950s, you know, alongside Edward at Cressy and that kind of thing. You know, he. The Earl of March is restored to him. It's not, you think, most of these earldoms, you would view they'd be attainted, they go into abeyance. But actually, you know, Edmund, Roger's son, is. He dies very early after. After his father is executed, and then he's roped his grandson, you know, they don't suffer the same penalties. Roger II Earl, you know, the earldom is restored to him. So Edward III has no issue with the. The earldom. Eventually, yeah, it feels a bit like.
- [55:52]
Matt Lewis
Roger falls into the same sort of trap as Simon de Montfort of campaigning against corruption and then finding himself in power and suddenly becoming what he had campaigned against and making himself unpopular.
- [56:03]
Paul Drybrough
I think so. But of course, Isabella is exactly the same. You know, Isabella is not this background figure offering maternal advice and interceding with the king. She is front and center. You know, they are holding a variety of tournaments all around the country. They are, you know, dressing up potentially as, you know, maybe it's Arthur and Guinevere, we're not sure. But they are certainly holding Arthurian tournaments all around the country, including at Wigmore. Actually, you know, there's one. There is one tournament at Wigmore in 1329 where, you know, the royal court decants to Wigmore and, you know, the king and the earl are exchanging gifts. It's a really interesting vignette into Mortimer's actual personal relationship with the king. You know, that this teenage boy is over there in the. In Roger Mortimer's backyard, and they're exchanging gifts. And presumably Edward is, you know, part of the. The jousting that goes on there. There aren't that many depicted. There aren't detailed descriptions of it. But, yeah, it's a very interesting relationship that Mortimer and Edward must have had. I mean, obviously, the Chronicle ledger chronicles, everybody talk about, you know, Mortimer never. Never allowing the boy to have precedence when he should have done. You know, always rising above him, walking two paces ahead of him, speaking when he shouldn't do, speaking for the king, that kind of thing. It's your classic evil counselor henchman figure that he becomes. But, you know, the official records that we have here at the National Archives, they do give you a very rich picture of the acquisitiveness, the attention Mortimer himself gave to expanding his interest in the areas where he was already strong. You know, so he's he's taking, for example, all of the lands of the Earl of Arendell, who's one of his big rivals in, in the Marches of Wales and getting liberty status for those lands because he has them as a status as Earl in the same way that the Earl of Arundel have them or example.
- [57:49]
Matt Lewis
So how does Roger end up then executed in 1330?
- [57:53]
Paul Drybrough
Okay, so October 1330, there's a council meeting, Parliament in Nottingham, the royal family holed up in Nottingham Castle, which as you know, has subterranean passages. Now Edward iii, basically advised by Chuckle William Montague, decides that, look, this is it, we've got to, you know, I think it's something, you know, eat the dog or we're going to be eaten kind of thing. They basically managed to engineer. They get, they get brought up through these subterranean passages into the Queen's chamber. They bring a surprise on, on Mortimer and Isabella who are in the Queen's chamber, supposedly with some men having a council meeting, including the Bishop of Lincoln. And they are arrested almost immediately. Then Mortimer and one of his sons and another man are carted off via Lancastrian lands to London and they're sent to the Tower of London. And there is accounts from 1332, two years after Mortimer's execution, which show that they were basically. The cell they were put in was not only in view from Edwards private apartments in the Tower, but they were also kind of walled up. They weren't going to escape this. He wasn't going to escape this time. They made a proper effort to ensure that the cell would be secure. So the end of November, basically brought out, brought out of the Tower to Parliament, tried before a full tribunal of his peers, not given the chance to answer, basically executed for. I think it's about a dozen different charges taken then to Tyburn and hanged as a common criminal. He's not beheaded, not given that. The same kind of dignity and execution that Thomas Ablanquist had in 1322, basically going to hang like a common thief. And, you know, that's it. In theory, he's.
- [59:24]
Matt Lewis
It's kind of an ignominious end for a man with such a sparkling career who has achieved so much.
- [59:30]
Paul Drybrough
He was so close personally to the King, but also potentially to his, to his son.
- [59:37]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. And just to finish on, what would you say is the most significant legacy of Roger Mortimer? I guess there's the legacy in terms of his family, but there's also the legacy in terms of being part of the first deposition of a king that, that becomes something bigger.
- [59:53]
Paul Drybrough
They're the obvious Too obviously the legacy, the dynastic legacy, which takes us, you know, which is still with us today to some degree. But also, yeah, that deposition is the first post conquest deposition. So it's the first use of the law and parliament to depose a king. And that was, you know, you can't imagine just how difficult and just how I imagine how traumatic that must have been for everybody, even Mortimer, who's been engineering it. He's at the front and center of it.
- [60:15]
Matt Lewis
A fascinating man and a fascinating career. So thank you so much for joining us, Paul, to explore Roger Mortimer's life in greater detail. Thank you.
- [60:22]
Paul Drybrough
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
- [60:23]
Matt Lewis
Thanks, Paul. It is done. The king of 20 years is deposed. This is uncharted territory. We have a new king, the old king's son, who is more than a boy, but not yet a man. The Queen has used Roger Mortimer like a sharp blade against her husband. But was this the end she played for Edward is clear where he places the blame. Friends will hateful Mortimer appoint no rest.
- [61:03]
Paul Drybrough
When will the fury of his mind assuage? When will his heart be satisfied with blood?
- [61:07]
Matt Lewis
If mine will serve unbowel, straight this breast and give my heart to Isabel and him. It is the chiefest mark they level at. There is one person this outcome suits most, Roger Mortimer. He had burned his bridges with the king and has now set the whole land ablaze. As the smoke disperses, there he stands at the center of power. Whether he shares a bed with the Queen is unimportant. He does now share the power of the crown with her. He ennobles himself so that his complaints about corruption suddenly sound hollow. High ideas sound good. Few men can keep them when they come into contact with power. Isabella and Mortimer rule in the name of the young King, Edward iii. They have their victory, but will it prove fleeting? How long will the young lion strain at his chains before he breaks them? What will he make of those who cast his father aside? Can he be tamed? Or are we simply waiting for the next round of vengeance and bloodshed? The question remains must answer is what kind of man King Edward III will be? It will not be long until we find out. I hope you've enjoyed getting to know Roger Mortimer a bit better. If you want to know more about this fascinating and medievally significant family, you can check out the Mortimer History society's website@mortimerhistorysociety.org maybe you can even join Paul and I as a member next time. We round off this special series by considering the young boy thrown into the centre of this mess? Edward iii? How active was he? What impact did all of this have on a teenager who would become one of the most significant kings in English history? Find out next time. There are new installments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back and join Elena and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've Gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. And all of History Hit's podcasts and ad free. Head to historyhit.com subscribe right now. Anyway, I better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with history.
- [64:16]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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- [64:48]
Paul Drybrough
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [64:55]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I'm Kristen. And I'm Jen from the I Mom so Hard podcast. We don't want to brag, but yes, we are moms. We're average moms. Below average sometimes. But we're not just moms. And we're not just supermodels either. We're not just pieces of meat. That's right. We're not even close. We are comedians and we're also best friends. We're also best selling authors and television writers. We created a viral web series with over 300 million views. What's up? Who's bragging? And we were in our swimsuits. Again, not supermodels. We're also podcast. Are we podcasting right now? Not right now, but we have been bringing laughs every Tuesday to women and moms everywhere. And one dude who's a sophomore in college. His name's Greg Whatever. He messaged us and made me feel cool. So nice. Amazing. Please listen to the Am mom so Hard podcast on Acast.
- [65:39]
Paul Drybrough
Woo.
- [65:41]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [65:47]
Paul Drybrough
Acast.com.