Saladin: Crusher of the Crusades

Summary

Gone Medieval — "Saladin: Crusher of the Crusades"

Host: Matt Lewis (with Dr. Eleanor Janega)
Guest: Professor Jonathan Phillips
Release Date: February 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Gone Medieval delves into the life, legend, and lasting impact of Saladin, the renowned Muslim leader who recaptured Jerusalem from the Crusaders and became a figure of awe—even among his foes. Host Matt Lewis and Dr. Eleanor Janega are joined by Professor Jonathan Phillips, an expert on the Crusades and Saladin’s biographer, to explore Saladin’s rise to power, his complex personality, his dynastic legacy, and the ways in which his reputation was shaped both in his time and for centuries beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Saladin?

[02:33–03:06]

• Birth & Background: Saladin was born in 1137 in Tikrit (now Iraq), into a Kurdish family.
  • "[Saladin] is one of the great figures of medieval history. He was born in 1137 in Tikrit." (Jonathan Phillips, 02:33)
• Claim to Fame: Known for recapturing Jerusalem for Islam, defeating the Crusaders at Hattin, and facing Richard the Lionheart in the Third Crusade.
• Heritage: Kurdish ethnicity, which made his family somewhat outsiders among the Sunni Muslim Turkic elites of Syria.
  • "In some ways, that makes him a little bit of an outsider... although the Turks and the Kurds work well alongside one another." (Dr. Eleanor Janega, 03:36)
• Family Role: His father (Ayyub, namesake of the Ayyubid dynasty) was a talented administrator; his uncle (Shirkuh) a renowned warrior.

2. Context and Fractures in the Muslim Near East

[04:47–05:43]

• Sunni vs. Shiite Split: At Saladin’s rise, Egypt was Fatimid (Shiite), while Syria and Iraq were Sunni. The Christian Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem sat between these powers.
• Zengid Dynasty: Saladin and his family served Nur al-Din, a champion of Sunni jihad and a powerful force unifying Muslim resistance to the Crusaders.

3. Saladin’s Rise to Power

[06:02–08:41]

• Egypt’s Strategic Value: Fatimid Egypt was wealthy but weak, tempting both Crusaders and Sunnis.
• Seizing Egypt: Through a series of invasions led by his uncle Shirkuh, Saladin’s family gained control. Upon Shirkuh’s sudden death (from overeating), Saladin was chosen as his successor—perhaps initially because he was underestimated, but he soon proved exceptional.
  • "There's some suggestion he's chosen because people don't think he's going to be terribly good and could be pushed around a bit. That was a mistake..." (Jonathan Phillips, 08:19)
• Consolidating Power: Carefully studied Egypt’s systems; commissioned surveys and etiquette books, displaying administrative acumen and a long-game approach.
  • "He wants to understand what he's got under his control. Those are quite interesting insights into the way that he's thinking a long game here." (Jonathan Phillips, 09:12)

4. Navigating Politics & Building a Dynasty

[09:25–12:07]

• Working with Existing Structures: Saladin didn’t overhaul Egypt, but artfully fit himself and his family into the existing power structures—a shrewd approach for an outsider.
• Tensions with Nur al-Din: As Saladin solidified power in Egypt and built a dynastic base, his independence worried his former patron. Tensions mounted toward civil war, but Nur al-Din’s death in 1174 gave Saladin a crucial opening.
  • "To be a successful ruler, you need to be lucky. And he's very fortunate because in May 1174, Nur al-Din, just as he's about to set out, dies." (Jonathan Phillips, 12:50)

5. Expanding His Empire & Justifying Actions

[13:04–17:43]

• Annexation of Syria: After Nur al-Din’s death, Saladin moved to enlarge his empire, sometimes clashing with fellow Sunni Muslims—actions that drew criticism and required deft propaganda to justify.
• Image Management: Saladin’s chroniclers and propagandists painted him as virtuous, merciful, and pious (a "mirror for princes"), though even contemporaries like the Christian William of Tyre recognized his wisdom, valor, and—importantly—his generosity.
  • “You need to be fearful of him. And I think his generosity is an interesting characteristic to be fearful of.” (William of Tyre via Jonathan Phillips, 17:35)

6. Cementing Power & Facing Setbacks

[19:04–22:54]

• Securing Key Cities: Gained control over Damascus, Aleppo, and, eventually, Mosul—the "crucial trio" needed to confront the Crusaders.
• Challenges: Suffered military setbacks (like the defeat at Montgisard); faced dangerous opponents like Reynald of Chatillon, whose provocative raids climaxed in outrages such as threatening the Prophet’s tomb, prompting harsh retribution from Saladin.

7. Towards Jerusalem—Motivation and Method

[21:37–23:06]

• Ultimate Goal: To retake Jerusalem, inspired by Nur al-Din’s vision. Saladin’s conquests and internal wars were presented as necessary preconditions for confronting the Franks and achieving this sacred aim.
  • “If we all work together under me, this is what we’re going to achieve.” (Jonathan Phillips, 22:41)

8. The Defining Victory: Hattin & Jerusalem

[24:37–33:28]

• The Battle of Hattin (1187): After a near-fatal illness spurred Saladin to hasten his campaign, he used a Crusader provocation as a pretext to attack. He presented his enemies with an impossible choice (to rescue a noblewoman in Tiberias or not), lured them into a grueling march, and annihilated the Crusader army.
  • “[Hattin] is as simple as that. Yes. He is under so much pressure to make something happen. He’s talked the talk for so long. And he set the trap and they fall for it.” (Jonathan Phillips, 30:25)
• Capture of Jerusalem: Achieved through both military might and negotiation—showed clemency to the defenders in return for ransom, contrasting with the massacre of Muslims and Jews by Crusaders in 1099.
  • "Saladin is well known for his mercy. And not slaughtering the defenders of Jerusalem is a big part of that.” (Jonathan Phillips, 33:25)

9. Response and the Third Crusade

[33:37–34:53]

• Christian Europe’s Reaction: The fall of Jerusalem triggered the Third Crusade; Saladin hastened to consolidate his gains, with mixed fortune—he failed to take the port of Tyre, which would later serve as a Crusader beachhead.
• Saladin vs. Richard the Lionheart:
  • Mutual Respect: Despite being demonized in the West, proximity bred a grudging and then sincere admiration between the two sides, particularly through negotiations involving Saladin’s brother, Safadin.
    • “Their understanding changes... by meeting each other... you have people who’ve got shared ideals.” (Jonathan Phillips, 38:21–39:23)
  • Chivalry and Personal Qualities: Both Saladin and Richard embodied the chivalric ideals prized by their foes, blurring the line between enemy and role model.

10. Outcome of the Third Crusade & Saladin’s Later Years

[40:05–43:43]

• Stalemate and Compromise: Richard won significant victories and territory, but could not retake Jerusalem. Both leaders, exhausted and facing domestic problems, settled on a treaty: the Crusaders regained part of the coast, but Jerusalem remained under Muslim control.
  • “I did lose some land, but I kept Jerusalem.” (Jonathan Phillips, 42:41)
• Succession Issues: Saladin died in 1193, leaving behind 17 sons and a fractious succession. The union he created soon began to unravel due to dynastic disputes.

11. Saladin’s Legacy & Reputation

[44:12–48:12]

• Western Perceptions: From bogeyman to paragon—Saladin was demonized after Jerusalem’s fall, but Crusaders who encountered him spread tales of his generosity and nobility. In later centuries, he became a chivalric hero in Western literature (e.g., Walter Scott’s The Talisman), even inspiring English parents to name their children after him.
  • “It’s hard to think of any figure in history who’s inflicted such a powerful blow as capturing Jerusalem... who is taken in such a positive way.” (Jonathan Phillips, 45:11)
• Memory in the Muslim World: Revered, especially among Sunnis, as the liberator of Jerusalem and unifier of Muslim lands, though viewed less favorably by Shiites for ending Fatimid rule. His image endures in architecture, poetry, and popular memory.
  • “Books of history are overflowing with stories about Saladin.” (Ottoman administrator, via Jonathan Phillips, 46:22)
• Modern Appropriations: Saladin is invoked today by a wide spectrum of groups (Islamists, nationalists, Kurds, etc.) as a symbol of unity and resistance.
  • “He’s an attractive character in many respects. He’s not somebody who’s a sort of dangerous psychopath... you can draw on him as a ruler to be admired in that broader sense.” (Jonathan Phillips, 48:00)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Power of Generosity:
  "He's generous beyond measure... For that reason alone, you need to be fearful of him." — William of Tyre (relayed by Jonathan Phillips, 17:35)
• Saladin’s Practicality as a Ruler:
  "He wants to understand what he's got under his control... thinking a long game here." — Jonathan Phillips (09:12)
• On The Hattin Trap:
  "He set the trap, and they fall for it." — Jonathan Phillips (30:33)
• Saladin the Charismatic Leader:
  "I think it's his ability to draw people along with him, his understanding of propaganda and resource... and his endurance in keeping going..." — Jonathan Phillips (46:53)
• Surprising Western Admiration:
  "You can find people, believe it or not, in Oxfordshire calling their children Saladin in the 1240s." — Jonathan Phillips (45:03)
• On Saladin’s Modern Resonance:
  "He's there to be identified with... as the man who drew a people together and expelled Westerners from the holy city of Jerusalem." — Jonathan Phillips (47:47)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:33 — Introduction to Saladin’s origins and family
• 06:02 — Saladin’s rise to power in Egypt
• 09:12 — Administrative acumen and consolidation strategy
• 12:25 — Tensions with Nur al-Din and dynastic politics
• 17:35 — Saladin’s cultivated image and the power of generosity
• 24:37 — Saladin’s near-fatal illness and the final push for Jerusalem
• 26:35 — The road to Hattin and Saladin’s tactical brilliance
• 31:28 — Aftermath of Hattin: capturing Jerusalem
• 36:35 — Mutual respect between Saladin and Richard the Lionheart
• 40:05 — Who won the Third Crusade? Analyzing outcomes
• 44:12 — Construction of Saladin’s legacy in East and West
• 46:53 — Final reflection on Saladin’s personality and enduring appeal

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Conclusion

The episode paints Saladin as more than just a military opponent of the Crusaders; he emerges as a statesman, administrator, master of propaganda, and ultimately a figure whose chivalric qualities and political savvy made a lasting mark on both the Islamic world and Christian Europe. The nuanced discussion reveals how Saladin’s legacy was shaped as much by image-makers and later generations as by his actual deeds—showing the ongoing power of reputation and storytelling across cultures and eras.

Transcript

[Narrator]

From long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarninger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life.

[Matt Lewis]

Only on History.

[Narrator]

Hit with your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.

[Matt Lewis]

Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.

[Narrator]

Welcome to Gone Medieval. From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details and and latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots and murders, to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here, find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.

[Matt Lewis]

Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis. Two names tend to dominate any account of the third Crusade in the Holy Land. From the Christian side, Richard the Lionheart bursts onto the scene to steal any glory that's going which didn't really win him any friends. Perhaps the greatest respect he achieved during the campaign came from his enemy, with whom he developed a close relationship that might look a little like friendship. Saladin led the Muslim forces in that crusade, but how did he rise to rule such a vast and disparate empire? Who was Saladin? And how did he become so successful that he drove the Lionheart from the Holy Land? To answer all these questions and more, I'm delighted to be joined by Jonathan Phillips. Jonathan's book, the Life and Legend of the Sultan Saladin is out now, and as professor of crusading history at Royal Holloway University of London, he's perfectly placed to introduce us to Saladin. Welcome to God Medieval. Jonathan, it's great to have you with us.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Thank you for asking me.

[Matt Lewis]

Looking forward to finding out more about Saladin. So I wondered if you could help us out to begin with, to introduce him with a little bit of who Saladin is, when is he born, and what is his family situation?

[Jonathan Phillips]

Saladin is one of the great figures of medieval history. He was born in 1137 in Tikrit.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Which is now in Iraq. He's famous in history as being the man who recaptured Jerusalem for Islam, defeated the Crusaders, crushed them at the Battle of Hattin, and then took back the Holy City. He then faced off against Richard the lion art, I guess. Two of the epic figures of medieval history, they never actually met, but they face each other in the Third Crusade, biggest crusade of the medieval period, which.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He ends up fending off and holds on to Jerusalem.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So that really is his claim to fame, but there's a lot more to him than that.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And he's an interesting figure. There's some tensions and contradictions in those kinds of images. And there's more to him about his.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Life than simply a man who was fighting battles.

[Matt Lewis]

And is Saladin born into a position of nobility of any kind? He will obviously rise right to the very top. But is he of more humble beginnings than we might think?

[Jonathan Phillips]

That's an interesting question. Ethnically, he's Kurdish. And most of the ruling families of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

What we would say is now Syria are Turkic.

[Jonathan Phillips]

They're both Sunni Muslims.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But this family is Kurdish.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So in some ways that makes him.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

A little bit of an outsider. Although the Turks and the Kurds work well alongside one another, his family is of status. His father is called Ayyub, and the dynasty is called the Ayyubids. And his uncle is a man called Shurku.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Shirkuh is a great warrior. We know what he looks like.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

We have a great description. He's a sort of short guy with a cataract.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He sort of kind of looks a little bit something out of Lord of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The Rings, I suppose, is how I rather crudely imagine him.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's the great warrior, and Nur al.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Din selects him to lead his various battles and invasions.

[Jonathan Phillips]

His father, Ayyub, is rather more cerebral.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's a very good administrator.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And I think Saladin gets a bit from both of them.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You can see the kind of blend that he's got there.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This Kurdish family rises up in the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Service of a man called Nur al Din.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And he is an important figure in Saladin's story.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's the man who took what we would say the jihad, the Muslim holy war, you might say the Cantor Crusade to the Franks, the people who are the descendants of the Crusaders who were living in the Holy Land.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's a really important figure.

[Matt Lewis]

And having been born into an ethnically Kurdish family, how does Saladin come into contact with the Zengid dynasty in Egypt? How closely is Egypt aligned to the rest of the near east at this point?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There's a big fracture in the Muslim near east, which is the Sunni Shiite split, which is the sort of basic division in Islam that's been there for centuries.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And actually where that kind of fault.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Line lies at this time is that Egypt is ruled by a Fatimid Shiite dynasty. And what we would say is Syria and Iraq are by Sunni Muslims. So you've got that inbuilt tension. And then in the middle, you've got the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem. So you've got three competing parties there.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But Saladin is very much part of Nur Al Din.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

This they called the Zengids, his ruling empire, should we say that's in Syria.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And they're important.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And one Nur Al Din is important.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Is that when the First Crusade turned.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Up, the Muslim near east was very fragmented.

[Jonathan Phillips]

That's one of the reasons it succeeds. And also because the idea of jihad, the counter Crusade, the Muslim holy war, is in abeyance. There's not really many people who are pushing it. And under Nur Al Din, you've got.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

A strong warrior and you've got a very pious man. And he connects the religious classes and.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The noble classes and gives the jihad.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

A really sharp, strong edge physically and I guess intellectually. That's why Nur Ad Din is, if you like, the important figure in setting the scene, Saladin's later successes. Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

How does Saladin then begin to rise to power? Does he come to the attention of Nur Al Din through his family connections?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Yeah, it's the family that does it.

[Jonathan Phillips]

It's his father, Ayyub, and his uncle.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Shirkuh, who are, if you like the sort of the way in. They're both very important to Nur Al Din in administration and in fighting.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And in the 1160s, Fatimid Egypt is weak, but it's also very wealthy.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And it's this great big sort of soft, attractive target that the Franks in Jerusalem, the Christians in Jerusalem want and Nur Al Din wants.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You want it because strategically holding Egypt.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Will allow you to pressure the Crusaders or vice versa.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And you want it because of the money. If you've got the wealth of Egypt, which is Alexandria, is by a massive.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Factor, the wealthiest portion of the Mediterranean, you will have the resource to really make life very difficult for whoever you're fighting.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So it's a competition. And Nur Ad Din asks Shuku to lead his army. And so there's five invasions of Egypt.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

In the space of about seven or eight years. Very sort of complicated back and forward. The Egyptian rulers are sort of playing one side off against the other.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But in January 1169, Shirkuh takes control.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of Egypt for Nur Ad Din and the Sunni Syrian Turks. And that is a great breakthrough. It's a really bad moment for the Kingdom of Jerusalem. So that's an important step.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And I guess from the Crusaders point of view, what they're seeing happening around them is the removal of that fracture between the Muslim world that has enabled them to have a degree of success. So where there were three sides, there is a danger that there will now become two, which means that the other side only have the Christians to focus on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

That's an important point. It also allows Nur Ad Din to.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Push himself as the leader of Sunni.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Islam, not in the spiritual sense, but as a sort of figurehead for Sunni Islam. Look, I've broken the power of the Shiites in Egypt, and that is an important kind of propaganda piece.

[Matt Lewis]

So having conquered Egypt, how does Saladin move to a position of power? I mean, he will end up being appointed by Nur Al Din as vizier and then Sultan of Egypt. How does he achieve that sort of rise to power?

[Jonathan Phillips]

The rise to power is not planned. His uncle Shuku is the great warrior.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Has taken control of Egypt in January 1169.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Only about two months later, this man enjoys eating and overeats and dies.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Expires from overeating.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And so you have to choose somebody new to succeed him. And there's a few candidates, and Saladin, about whom we don't really know much at this time, is the one chosen.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There's some suggestion he's chosen because people.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Don'T think he's going to be terribly good and could be pushed around a bit.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

That was a mistake because that was completely wrong. I suspect people had seen that he was an effective and sort of competent administrator. And he's clearly got some personal charisma.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's been involved in a siege in.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Alexandria before in which he performed well. So I think he's a good candidate. Turns out to be an exceptional candidate, of course.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So he gets control of Egypt as.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Early as March 1169. And it's from there he begins to consolidate his power.

[Jonathan Phillips]

One of the things I think that's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Quite interesting about him, we sort of think about battles and warfare in this thing.

[Jonathan Phillips]

I think he's really quick in wanting.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To understand how Egypt operates. He grew up in Damascus. An urban environment, an equestrian environment.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Egypt's really different.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

I mean, it's kind of ruled by the River Nile.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Thousands of years of different tradition, and he asks somebody to write him a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Book of etiquette of Egypt.

[Jonathan Phillips]

How does this place operate? He asks for a kind of doomsday book equivalent, an economic survey of Egypt. He wants to understand what he's got under his control. Those are quite interesting insights into the way that he's thinking a long game here.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, it's fascinating. You mentioned that Nur al Din perhaps saw in him the best of both his father and his uncle, a competent administrator, but someone who could also lead militarily. And therefore he may have seemed like someone who would be good to put in charge of Egypt. But it sounds like he's also operating a Roman way of doing things in that he's not going in and changing all of the structures of power, he's allowing himself to be absorbed into them.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah, he's working with the grain, if.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You see what I mean.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah. As you say, you know, you could go in and try and smash the existing structure up, but to do that, you've got to have vast numbers of people. He's a Kurd in a Sunni, Syrian in Turkic invasion force. So he's an outsider of outsiders. And there's still going to be people.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Who are going to try and resist his rise to power in Egypt.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So, yeah, he's very astute.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's not overreaching himself early on.

[Jonathan Phillips]

I mean, for the first couple of years, the young Fatimid Shiite caliph is.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Still alive, so he kind of keeps him under confinement.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And this young man dies of natural.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Causes, we hear, after a couple of years, and is not then replaced. So that's the moment when the Sunnis, if you like, take religious control of Egypt, but effectively they've got the political control already.

[Matt Lewis]

And how long is Saladin solely in Egypt and what do we see him doing with his power there? How is he ruling?

[Jonathan Phillips]

One thing that's fairly rapidly obvious with.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Saladin and his family is that he is building a dynastic kind of power base in Egypt. His father comes down to be the treasurer.

[Jonathan Phillips]

His family work with him. That's one of the secrets of his.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Success, is that the Ayyubid families stick with him.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You think of the number of times.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Families squabble throughout history and kind of derail each other.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But the Ayyubids can see Saladin as.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's kind of their front man, as a man who's very effective.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's obviously very good with people. That's one of his great strengths.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's a good diplomat.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's clearly good at personal relations and rewarding people. So he really is, if you like.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Establishing a dynastic base in Egypt, and.

[Jonathan Phillips]

It'S such a wealthy base. So things are looking pretty good for.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The Ayyubids, which of course, starts to.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Worry Nur Al Din and tensions begin to creep in. Nur Ad Din asks him to come.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And fight at the great castle of Keratin in Transjordan. Come and join me in besieging Kerat.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This is the Pinsa movement from Syria.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And Egypt that's kind of been envisaged. And Saladin, well, ums and ahhs. Oh, there's trouble in Cairo.

[Jonathan Phillips]

I can't make it.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You know, it'd be dangerous. And this is just clearly making excuses. He's worried that Nurabdi would arrest him or sort of strip him of authority because it's too obvious what's happening.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You can see him as the great hero, the man who recovered Jerusalem for Islam. But you have to say alongside that.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He is a usurper in some senses and an empire builder. I don't think any of those things are contradictory.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Nurual Din uses the previous rulers of Damascus.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So it's kind of just what's done, but that's what's happening.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So there's this tension building up with Nur Al Din.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I was going to ask about that, how that tension develops. We presumably are going to see a change in the relationship between Nur Al Din and Saladin if Saladin is no longer behaving in the way that Nur Al Din, having appointed him, is expecting him to behave. Does that tension ever reach a kind of crisis point?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You know, it's growing and growing in the early 1170s. And there comes a point in early 1174 where Nur Al Din gathers an army and he's going to march to Egypt to try and bring his young lieutenant to heel. So we're looking at being on the verge of civil war here, which is quite a startling thought. But then what happens with Saladin? As happens a few times in Saladin's career, to be a successful ruler, you.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Need to be lucky.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And he's very fortunate because in May 1174, Nur Al Din, just as he's about to set out, dies. He gets sick and he dies.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And so that gives Saladin such a breathing space.

[Jonathan Phillips]

It really is one of those moments that, yeah, it would have been civil war, he could have been defeated. But it gives him a kind of open space, not least because Nur Ad.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Din is succeeded by an 11 year old boy. So that gives Saladin some scope to work with.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's lucky. Then two or three months later, when the King of Jerusalem, Amalric, who's a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Very kind of robust, energetic, impressive king.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Of Jerusalem, he also dies of natural causes and he is succeeded by a teenage boy who has leprosy. So January 1174, it's Nurilddin and Amalric, two formidable rulers. By the autumn of that year, they.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Both died and both been succeeded by boys. So, wow, what a chance for Saladin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And I guess from Saladin's reputational point of view as well, it saves him ever having to have turned on his master, ever having to have, you know, been the cause of a civil war amongst the Muslims.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Again, not quite. Because after 1174, he then moves into Syria and he makes it clear that.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He wants to take over the Zengid empire. He says, oh, I'll look after the young successor, I'll be his guardian. And nobody really buys into that.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He gets older Damascus quite quickly.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

That's where he grew up.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He has quite a lot of support there. He marries Nuraddin's widow and so that is fairly smooth. But when he wants to really take.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Nur Ad Din's heartlands up in Aleppo and Mosul, there's a lot of opposition.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And there are a couple of occasions where there's battles. So again, Saladin, you think of him fighting Crusaders, fighting Christians, does end up in a couple of military engagements and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Certainly some sieges against his fellow Sunni Muslims.

[Matt Lewis]

And does he make any effort to justify fighting fellow Muslims when there is a Christian Crusader army sort of next door to the pair of them? Does he make any effort to reconcile that infighting between the Muslims that detracts from focusing on the. The Christians?

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah, you've hit upon a really, I suppose, for him, a very sensitive issue there. One of the things about Saladin, he's got great propagandists.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The people around him are very good at sort of churning out a positive image of Saladin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

They try and say that really he.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Is the most effective man to take the fight to the Christians.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He is the man who will enable.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Sunni Muslims to recover Islam's third most important city, Jerusalem, for their faith.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So it's in a sense of pushing.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

His candidacy as the best person possible.

[Jonathan Phillips]

That's really one of the methods that he used.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But he's absolutely criticized for this from time to time. The caliph Baghdad is very suspicious of him, says, no, that I'm not going to grant you authority over Aleppo. That should be the Zengids.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So there is a tension, part of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Which he tries to allay by fighting.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The Franks, by fighting the Christians of Jerusalem. And it doesn't always go very well. There's a battle called Montgisard in 1177 which, where his forces are absolutely hammered and he's quite lucky to escape. So there's a period, again, we know the end result is going to get Jerusalem back, but there's a period in which he's. He's not doing terribly well.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And I guess those you touched on the sources about Saladin, then, are they predominantly coming from Saladin? Do we need to be conscious when we're studying the sources about Saladin of the inherent bias, or do we see lots of criticism of him too?

[Jonathan Phillips]

A lot of the sources that we.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Have about Saladin are very, very positive, and a lot of them are written by people very close to him.

[Jonathan Phillips]

I think, again, another reason why he's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Successful, he's got a really good group.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Of administrators around him, really clever, loyal.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

People who support him very, very closely.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But they also are responsible for some of the written accounts that we have of his life. And there's a danger that they look.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

A bit too good to be true.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You know, this man, if you read them fairly superficially, does appear to be almost perfect.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There's a genre called Mirrors for princes, advice book for princes.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And it seems as if he's merciful.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Generous, brave, pious, cultured. And it's almost like a sort of tick box exercise.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And some scholars have sort of said, well, this, you know, is this too.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Good to be true?

[Jonathan Phillips]

Is it just kind of almost a literary confection?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But against that, I guess you have to look at what he achieved.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And you also have to look at some other sources.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There's one that's quite a strange man called Ibn Jubaya, who's a Spanish Muslim.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Pilgrim who visits the kingdom of Jerusalem.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And the Muslim lands in 1184, 85.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And then he goes back to Spain. He could have written anything he liked about Saladin. He's not in his pay, he's hundreds of miles from him.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And he talks about him in incredibly positive terms.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Or you could even flick it the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Other way and see what the Franks of Jerusalem had to say. There's a man called William Attire, who's the great historian of the kingdom, and.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He, in the early 1180s, again, without knowing what happens in Jerusalem, says that there's three things you need to know about Saladin. He's wise in council, good people around him. He's valiant in war, and so he's a good warrior.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But thirdly, he's generous beyond measure.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And for that reason alone, you need.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To be fearful of him. And I think his generosity is an.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Interesting characteristic to be fearful of.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting kind of third wheel on that vehicle, isn't it, that, you know, he's a good administrator and he's a good soldier. But actually, what you should fear most is the fact that he's generous.

[Jonathan Phillips]

That generosity is something that's greatly esteemed.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

In Western culture at the time and in the Muslim Near East.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But he's doing it to get support. He has the wealth of Egypt, as I said. You know, he knows how wealthy Egypt is, so he can dole it out to his supporters. He doles it out not just to nobles, but to the religious classes. So they pray for him.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

They again push his kind of perspective.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's very clever in using generosity to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Bind people to him. Let's be clear, this is not always charity.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This is, I give you this and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You give me your support back. But he uses it very, very effectively, ceremonially, publicly.

[Jonathan Phillips]

I think that's a way to think of it visually, rewarding people with a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Public recognition of their support and service.

[Jonathan Phillips]

We're obviously pre Internet, pre television. People see display, you're given robes by him that you can then take away, or that kind of thing.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

It's very, very effective.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, powerful kind of lever of almost soft power to balance out the hard power that he clearly possesses as well. And how successful is Saladin in his efforts to take over Syria and the Zengid empire at this point? Can we see him trying to build an empire of his own? Does he come close to having an empire at this point?

[Jonathan Phillips]

He gets Damascus pretty quickly, but then it takes him quite a long time.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To persuade the people of Aleppo to submit to him and to work with him.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And they do eventually come round, if.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You like, to the pressure that he puts on them. Takes him another few years to get Mosul.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And once you've got Mosul, Aleppo and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Damascus, you've got the sort of crucial trio of cities that you need to have the strength, the resource, and you need them on your side to then take on the Crusaders.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He has periodically, as I say, he.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Got hammered in that Battle of Montgisard.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The Crusaders exploit that by starting to build a huge castle just about a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Day'S ride from Damascus.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And that, again, is really putting pressure on him. And so they can see that he's a bit vulnerable. He manages to break into that castle and destroy it. But there's other people, a man called.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Reynold of Chatillon, who's a very, very.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Mercurial, dangerous figure, who again, puts pressure.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

On Saladin from time to time.

[Matt Lewis]

And how do we see Saladin dealing with those pressures that he's experiencing? Is it, I mean, similar to his arrival in Egypt? Is he measuring up his situation. Is he weighing up his enemies and trying to get the measure of everybody around him, or do we see him kind of lashing out at these sort of embarrassing defeats?

[Jonathan Phillips]

A bit of both, I think. He's constantly trying to build up his resource and trying to assemble this coalition.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of the great Muslim cities of Syria. Raynald of Chatillon is a thorn in his side. This is a man who spent 15 years in a prison, a Muslim prisoner, as a prisoner of war, but when he gets out, holds the powerful lordship of Kerak in what we now say.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Is Jordan and in 1182 launches a very, very provocative raid.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He sends some ships down to the.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Red Sea that sail down and look as if they're going to attack Medina, the Prophet's tomb.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And this is an outrageous and very.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Left field bit of thinking.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And it embarrasses Saladin beyond all you.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Know, he's posing as the champion of Islam. And here you are with people threatening the Prophet's tomb. And of course it's a really, a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Really effective way of trying to unsettle him. When he captures these men, the prisoners.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Are then, contrary to Islamic law, they.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Surrender, they should be spared. They are sent around the centres of his power and publicly executed just to show his anger and his embarrassment.

[Matt Lewis]

And as he's improving his level of control over all of these regions, do we have a real sense of what Saladin's endgame is, what his ultimate goal is? Is he keen to control all of the former Zengid lands? Is he trying to build a united Muslim empire? Is he going to drive out the. The Christians? Is it all of those things? Is uniting the Muslim world a step towards driving out the Christians? Does he have a kind of priority list that he's working to.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yes, I think his ultimate goal is.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To follow on from Nur Al Din's ultimate goal, which is to recover Jerusalem for Islam. But to do that, he would argue, and manifestly he's intending, is to establish an Ayyubid empire, which is basically Syria, Iraq, Egypt.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's got a bit of the Yemen too. These are the kind of core, the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Sort of heartlands of the Ayyubids.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And he doesn't see those two things as contradictory. He would argue you need all those.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Things to then take on the Franks and recover Jerusalem.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But there's a clear line.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

I mean, Saladin is undoubtedly a pious man. I think Nur Ad Din is probably more pious. But I don't think we should question Saladin's religiosity. He's got a Lot of religious men around him. He's certainly a great sponsor of the religious classes and they are producing propaganda stressing the importance of Jerusalem for Muslims and the need to remove the Christians from the holy city.

[Matt Lewis]

So is he almost trying to make an effort to sell his campaigns against fellow Muslims as the pain that needs to be gone through to achieve the ultimate goal of expelling the Christians?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Yes, I'm not sure he'd put it quite like that.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But if we all work together under me, this is what we're going to achieve. So there's a sense of join me.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

With a sort of shared goal. That's the impression that he's trying to create. But everybody sees that. It's empire building, there's no doubt about.

[Jonathan Phillips]

It, because as I said, this is what Nur Al Din has done before. It's kind of the way that people operate.

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[Matt Lewis]

In a world where swords were sharp.

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[Matt Lewis]

So for plagues, Crusades and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. And when we get to 1186, Saladin comes very close to dying from an illness. Just as an interesting kind of what if? If he had died at that point, how do you think Saladin might have been remembered? As kind of just another self interested Muslim warlord. It seems like he wouldn't have the same kind of glittering reputation that he has now.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

That's a really interesting question.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Of course, yes, he wouldn't have the great achievement on his CV of recovering Jerusalem and he hadn't been massively successful.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Against the Franks, against the Crusaders at that point either.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So I suppose conquering Egypt for the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Sunnis would have been the big achievement and ruling it, I think he'd be remembered for that.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But no, he certainly wouldn't have the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Reputation that's lasted down the centuries, which to my mind is undoubtedly based on.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The recovery of Jerusalem and his even.

[Matt Lewis]

Faster rise, if you like, almost follows Hard on the heels of that near death experience in 1187, he has a kind of revelatory year for him, you know, an incredibly successful year. I wonder if you could talk us through a little bit about what happens at the Battle of Hattin and why that's such an important moment for Saladin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah. Just before doing so, you mentioned his.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Illness a couple of times and I.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Think those are quite interesting. He is sick for so much of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The last six or seven years of his life and I think that's quite easy to forget.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And it's very interesting to explore the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Health struggles that he faces.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Again, you kind of think of him as a warrior or a leader of the people of Islam, but he had.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To face a lot of health difficulties.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And in 1186 he very nearly dies, as you say.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And I think that really brings home to him, he needs to get on with this. And in fact, there's a conversation recorded to his brother saying, look, you could die at any time. You are the man who holds this together. We need to get cracking on Jerusalem now. So there's a strong sense of Having.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Spent these 13 years building up this.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Empire, this confederation of lands.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You have got to start defeating the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Christians and you really need to do it quite quickly for reasons of your health.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But also you keep saying, yes, this is why we're doing it. This is why you've got to work with me, you've got to deliver. Otherwise people will think, come on, he doesn't mean it.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. So there's a danger that if he drags it out for too long, he will simply be seen as trying to conquer fellow Muslims without ever turning his attention to the Christians and the Crusaders.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah, it's all talk and no action. And so in 1187, he has gathered.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Mosul, Aleppo, Damascus, Egypt, and he's looking for an excuse to fight.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And a Reynold of Chatillon, this rather.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Sort of out of control baron that we've talked about, attacks a caravan, breaks.

[Jonathan Phillips]

A truce, a trade caravan that's moving through his lands.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And this breaking of a truce with the Franks is Saladin's excuse to invade. And in the spring of 1187, he gathers all his forces together in a bigger way than he's ever done before. And he then invades the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He moves towards Tiberius on the Sea.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of Galilee and captures a castle there.

[Jonathan Phillips]

In which is the wife of one.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of the Frankish nobles. So it's a great challenge to the chivalric integrity of the Franks.

[Jonathan Phillips]

There is a genuine maiden in distress in the castle.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Should they try and fight and rescue her or should they not? And that's the dilemma.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Saladin's, I will say, brilliance in putting.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Them under that kind of pressure. Are you going to fight or are you not going to fight? And that's really the key question in.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Medieval warfare, particularly in the Crusader states.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And I guess, you know, every general in Saladin's position is looking for a way to force the enemy's hand, and he's sort of asking that unanswerable question, you know, are you going to come and fight my huge army to save this maiden, or are you going to leave her in the peril that she finds herself in and expose yourself as unchivalric and lacking in bravery to some extent? So he's kind of asking an unanswerable question of the Christians at this point. Yeah.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Putting that question to them is the clever bit, because the Franks, two or three times in the previous four or five years, Saladin has kind of not invaded fully, but sort of launched quite big incursions and they've avoided fighting him. They're like staying out of the reach.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of a boxer's punch. Because if you fight a battle, as.

[Jonathan Phillips]

We'Re about to find out, the danger is you lose. And then given that, if you've got limited resources, you've really got sort of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

One shot at it. But if you don't fight, you stay safe. But if you stay safe at a.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Cost, it doesn't look very brave, doesn't look very noble.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You'll lose crops and some villages and things like that.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So there's nice tension that Saladin is.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Looking to exploit again.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He also knows that the man who's the King of Jerusalem, a man called Guy, had been the regent one of his earlier raids, and he loses the regency. He's stripped of the regency for allegedly.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Not being brave enough. There's political reasons behind that, but it's used as a. As a lever against him. And Saladin, again, is pressing on that.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, he's kind of understanding the levers that he's able to pull very, very well, isn't he? So does he succeed in luring the Crusaders to him?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Yeah, he does.

[Jonathan Phillips]

There's a wonderful scene in the tent of the Crusaders. The King has decided not to march.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's not going to rise to the temptation. But then, late at night, the master of the Templars comes to him. You've got to imagine a very sort.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Of melodramatic, sort of candlelit scene, I.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Think, in a tent and says, come on, Remember what happened last time? You didn't fight, you were booted out. And as a Templar, he is dedicated to fighting Muslims and he says, come on, you've got to force this. And so when everybody wakes up the.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Following morning, there's a sort of rather shock order. We are going to march.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And the King says, you know, yeah, this is what's happening now, folks. Absolutely.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Saladin has tempted them into a 32 kilometer march across a parched plateau in the middle of Palestine.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And that's a really dangerous, risky thing to do. There's hardly any water supply.

[Jonathan Phillips]

We're in early July, incredible heat. And Saladin's got more men, he's got arrows, he's got camels bringing up huge amounts of water. And the Frankish army is just not very strong. I mean, a lot of them are not professional soldiers.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

They've just been dragged off the fields.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Or the towns and they're a pretty ramshackle lot, many of them, trying to do this 32 kilometer march and it's hopeless.

[Matt Lewis]

The film Kingdom of Heaven, you know, presents the Battle of Hattin as incredibly brutal, but also as a big and stupid mistake by the Crusaders. How accurate do you think that is? Is this the Crusaders hubris? Is this just a stupid error that they make in trying to face Saladin here?

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yes, it's as simple as that. Yes. He is under so much pressure to make something happen. He's talked the talk for so long.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And he set the trap and they fall for it. And once they start marching, he's able.

[Jonathan Phillips]

To fall in around them, harass them with arrows.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

When it's at night, he sets the dry sort of brush on fire.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The smoke goes into the lungs of these people.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

They've hardly got any water, so he's shattering them around.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The other thing he's got is noise, huge amount of drumming and discordant trumpets all putting pressure on the Crusaders.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And in the end, they're forced into a place called the Horns of Hattin, which is an old volcanic crater, and they, they make their last stand there, but to no avail. And the banner falls and the King of Jerusalem is captured.

[Matt Lewis]

And I mean, it's such a, a crushing victory for the, the Crusaders too, that it, it effectively opens the way to Jerusalem for Saladin. Is this the realization of everything that he'd been trying to achieve? So we've talked about, you know, he's promised so much for so long. Is this him finally delivering very, very quickly?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's utterly broken the strength of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. That really was the Vast majority of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The military forces they had.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He tidies up a couple of other places. Acre, the most important port on the coastline, he goes to fairly quickly.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He heads to Jerusalem to deliver the ultimate goal to the people of Islam. And he besieges it in September, and he gets in there in early October. And this is a moment of great delight and celebration for him. And his PR machine cranks into top gear and sends out message after message saying, you doubted me. You said I was the wrong man. You said I was fighting Muslims. Well, look, it appears that God has decided and it was me and my family that achieved this.

[Matt Lewis]

An incredible PR moment for him to be able to stand in the middle of Jerusalem and say, see, I told you it is.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But there's another interesting element to that, because the siege of Jerusalem, when it.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Began, Jerusalem, even though there's not many Christian defenders, is still a walled city.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And he negotiates with the defenders.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There's a question as to whether he's going to avenge the massacre. Muslims and Jews were massacred in 1099 when the First Crusade took the city.

[Jonathan Phillips]

There's some question, are you going to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Reverse this and 88 years later massacre the Christian defenders?

[Jonathan Phillips]

And the man called Balin of Ibela.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Who'S in charge of Jerusalem, place a very poor hand of cards brilliantly and says, well, I think you should let.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Us go for a ransom, because otherwise we will kill all the Muslim prisoners.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

We will fight to the death, and we'll take a lot of you down with us and we will smash up the Dome of the Rock. And that is the place from which the Prophet ascended to heaven on his night journey. And that is the core reason why Jerusalem is so important to Muslims.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So in other words, he's saying, this.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Isn'T really going to be worth your while. And Saladin very quickly sees the logic of that, and his advisors do so.

[Jonathan Phillips]

They agree to surrender. So he's shown mercy, and I think that, again, is a form of power.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

It also gives him a huge amount.

[Jonathan Phillips]

More money to be generous with. And I think that's also a part of his reputation. Saladin is well known for his mercy.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And not slaughtering the defenders of Jerusalem is a big part of that.

[Matt Lewis]

And how then, having been broken, particularly by the Battle of Hattin and lost Jerusalem, how do the Crusaders respond to this?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

It's interesting.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The moment he took Jerusalem, he set.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The starting gun off for the Third Crusade, and he knows it.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But things move slowly in the medieval world. He knows he's probably got two years.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To get ready for the response of.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The West Pope is said to have.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Died of a heart attack.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Appeals are brought out. The knights, nobles, rulers, the whole people.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of Western Europe are in a sense morally obligated to go to try to recover Christ City.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So he knows that he's going to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Be facing an enormous series of armies.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So he's got about two years to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Try and consolidate his position.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So he moves through the Crusader lands, basically trying to mop up the whole lot. So he's there in a position to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Face them when they come.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So he's very successful in that, with one exception. For once, his luck deserts him. There's a port called Tyre on the coast. It's just in southern Lebanon now.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And a man called Conrad of Montferrat, who's a significant Western noble, just happens to turn up on pilgrimage.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's no idea if the Battle of Hattin, and he sails past Acre and he thinks those people don't look like Christians on the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

In the port there. So he sails up to Tyre, which is about to surrender to Saladin, and he says, no, come on, we need to hold this place.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And that if he'd have arrived a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Week later, Tyre would have fallen.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So that is one occasion Saladin is not fortunate. And having Tyre as a bridgehead gives.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The Crusaders something to aim for.

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[Matt Lewis]

In a world where swords were sharp.

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And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is, two fearless historians.

[Matt Lewis]

Me, Matt Lewis, and me, Dr. Eleanor.

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Jaanaga, dive headfirst into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

[Matt Lewis]

So for plagues, Crusades and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History. Hit wherever you get your podcasts. One of the most famous aspects of the Third Crusade will become the relationship that emerges between kind of Richard I of England, Richard the Lionheart, and Saladin, do we get any sense of just why there is apparently at least so much mutual respect between them? Are they so alike that they get on? Or do they recognize something in each other?

[Jonathan Phillips]

It's a mixture of all those things. I think, from Richard's perspective, when Saladin captured Jerusalem, he's immediately demonized. I mean, he had a fairly negative reputation anyway.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But of course, capturing Christ's city.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He is then described as the son of Satan. He's a really terrible man. He's depicted as one of the heads of the Dragon of the Apocalypse.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's demonized.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And that's the image that all the Crusaders coming out from the west, their sort of heads are filled with. But there is an engagement, a place called Acre. The Siege of Acre, which has been.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Going on for two years before Richard actually turns up.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This man, Conrad Amora and King Guy.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of Lusignan, who I mentioned are rivals. And Guy takes a rather desperate step to regain the kind of prestige that he lost at the Battle of Hattin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

By besieging his port called Acre.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And that becomes the target of the Third Crusade.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And there's a two year siege, enormous amount of sickness, struggle, but again, it's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Christians and Muslims in close proximity. And that's where Richard is going to turn up at.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And I think when Richard's army turns up, they spend.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Because the crusade lasts a long time East Westerners spend a lot more time in proximity to the Muslims and to Saladin and his brother Safadin, who I'll talk about in a moment.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And their understanding changes. And I think it's from, if you like, the duration of the crusade and the proximity of these people, they're hundreds of yards apart and there's endless amounts.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of diplomacy that begins to change people's mindset.

[Matt Lewis]

I guess there's a little bit of that element of, you know, from a distance, Saladin can look like this terrible monster who, as you say, you can demonize and make a figure of the apocalypse and everything else, but it's very different when you're close to him, dealing with him day to day and you, you sort of get to know the person. You know, it's easy to demonise an idea. It's more difficult to hate an actual person.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And I have to say, this demonization, they stop demonizing Saladin and actually his brother Safadin is important. Saladin and Richard never meet. Saladin refuses to meet somebody face to face who he has not made peace with.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He says this goes against my sort of cultural practices.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So the man who does a lot of the negotiation is Safadin and he.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Meets Richard many times and Otomie thinks it's fairly logical. A lot of our views of Saladin are a sort of conflation of him and Safadin, but that in a sense doesn't matter.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So you've got this kind of yes. This idea of by meeting each other and through Safadin, you have people who've got shared ideals. Richard comes from the west, where generosity.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Mercy, bravery and religion are highly valued.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Chivalry, that's the great cultural driver of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The west by the end of the 12th century, is being chivalric. When you look at Saladin and Safadin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

They are certainly merciful, they're certainly generous, they're certainly pious, they're certainly brave, they.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Share the privations of their troops.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You're seeing everything that you want in yourself. And so there's an element of recognition.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And admiration of the things that you like as well.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, I think it's a. I guess, a bit of an oddity of the medieval world that you see so many, maybe not just the medieval world, but this idea that you can see things that you like and approve of in someone you consider to be your mortal enemy, that you can respect them and deal with them in a friendly and respectful manner while still desperately trying to kill them.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah, it does seem a considerable series of contradictions there. Richard and Safadin have. They share food, they like hawking and hunting, they like music. I mean, some people say they are getting a bit too friendly. Hey, come on, you're supposed to be at war here. You're actually looking like you're getting on beyond the levels of diplomacy. So it is interesting how that happens.

[Matt Lewis]

Who wins the Third Crusade? That's a tricky question, I guess, but, yeah.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This city called Acre is eventually captured by the Crusaders. And at the end of that siege.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Richard massacres two and a half thousand Muslim prisoners. So he certainly is not merciful at all. And that is de facto a war crime.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And Richard, over the next year and a bit, is very successful in fighting Saladin.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He defeats him in a number of battles. Richard is clearly a much more competent general than Saladin, who all the time.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This is the crucial thing to remember.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's not just fighting the Crusaders, he's.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Trying to control an Empire I.e.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq.

[Jonathan Phillips]

If you think of all the people around the borders of them who are going to be potentially looking to disrupt.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Saladin's control and cause him trouble.

[Jonathan Phillips]

It's so easy just to think. All he's doing is looking at this city, Acre, on the coastline two miles from his camp. He's got another 359 degrees, should we say, to be looking around and worrying.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

About, to deal with.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So I think my kind of view of Saladin, I guess I admire him for his ability to control and hang.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

On with this great coalition in the.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Face of huge Western crusading armies coming over. We haven't mentioned the King of France.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

We particularly haven't mentioned the Emperor of.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Germany, who is the senior figure in.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Western Europe, who's got a very, very big army, and he is very successful.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Marching towards the Holy Land. But he falls into a river and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Dies of a heart attack. Saladin's luck again.

[Matt Lewis]

And, I mean, he will ultimately conclude a peace that will see Richard and the King of France has already gone as well, but it will see those significant Christian rulers from Europe leave the Holy Land. Is Saladin able to package this as a victory?

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah, and that's a good question.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And obviously Jerusalem was something very easy.

[Jonathan Phillips]

To put in that way by the end of it. I think the treaty that they've agreed is something that works for both sides. Both Richard and Saladin have been very ill. Both of them are running out of money.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Both of them have got domestic problems at home. Saladin's empire is beginning to creak. Richard has got to deal with the unpleasantness of Prince John. They both kind of run out of energy and resource. And Saladin has enough strength. As he points out to Richard, you've got to go home. You've got finite amounts of resource. I've got all these lands, you know, the troops from all these lands. So basically, I'm in a stronger position, so I'm not going to give you back Jerusalem.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So Richard negotiates back a bit of the coastline, which does improve the position.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of the Crusaders on the coast, but Saladin keeps the Holy City. And I think he would ultimately argue that, yes, look, Western Europe threw its greatest rulers and troops at me. I did lose some land, but I kept Jerusalem.

[Matt Lewis]

And I guess one of the things from Richard's point of view is that so soon after him leaving the Holy Land, Saladin is removed from the scene. You know, he will die. So if Richard had stuck it out a little bit longer, things could have been very, very different. But what do we know about how Saladin dies and what kind of succession planning he might have put in place?

[Jonathan Phillips]

Yeah, succession planning is difficult. One of the things about Saladin is, is that he has 17 sons, which.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Is an alarming statistic in some senses.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But it means you've got to sort.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Out land and territory for them. I mean, some of them are still quite young.

[Jonathan Phillips]

When he's dying, he starts, in the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Last few years of his life trying to give some of them, one might say, control of Aleppo or one Mosul.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And then he takes it back from him. It's not quite that sort of certainty of touch. And then when you give something to somebody and take it back, it doesn't always go down well. So he hasn't quite resolved things as.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Clearly as he could have or would have wanted to, I suppose. I guess he imagined he would have lived longer and sorted it out. It does actually then take Safadin, Uncle Safadin, as it were, to begin to restore order.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But a couple of years after Saladin dies are marked by warfare between some of his sons. So this very powerful confederation that he's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Created of Ayyubid lands and Zengid, the Nur Ad Din territories, created creeks pretty quickly.

[Matt Lewis]

And I mean, a big part of your work has been to think about the legacy of Saladin. How has he been remembered throughout history? And how has his reputation changed over the centuries since his successes?

[Jonathan Phillips]

I think you can look at that in two ways. His reputation in the west, as we.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Said, you know, he's got this terrible reputation immediately after the fall of Jerusalem.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And with the Third Crusade, quite quickly. The Westerners liked what they saw on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The Third Crusade of him.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And they told people about it when they went back. I mean, a group of pilgrims, the man who's going to become the Archbishop of Canterbury, actually go to Jerusalem and meet Saladin. And he is as charming and as generous and as courteous as advertised. So word kind of gets out in.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The west that this man has a lot to admire.

[Jonathan Phillips]

The Handbook of Chivalry is written in the 1220s, and one of the two leading characters is Saladin. You can find people, believe it or not, in Oxfordshire, so starting to call their children saladin in the 1240s. I mean, this is not the son of Satan anymore. He has a literary career in which he can come to the west in disguise, seduce Western women.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And that's garbage, of course, but the.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Fact that Western Europeans are comfortable in adopting him, or wanting to adopt him.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

If you like, is very interesting.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And so he's no longer the enemy. It's hard to think of any figure in history who's inflicted such a powerful blow as capturing Jerusalem as then somebody who is taken in such a positive way. And that continues down the centuries. I think the 19th century, you have.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To mention Walter Scott and the talisman.

[Jonathan Phillips]

It's hard for us to understand how.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Successful Walter Scott's books are. Think sort of Harry Potter levels of success internationally, and you've got that.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So that's reinforcing Saladin in this positive manner. You go to the near east and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There'S obviously the other side to the story. The Shiites don't like him because, of course, it was on his watch, as it were, that the caliph, the Shiite caliph died. But for Sunni Islam, he is there as a hero.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And the regimes afterwards, of course, the Mamluk regime after the Ayyubid and the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Ottomans, they've got their own heroes.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But Saladin is there in history books. He's there in the topography of the place.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

It's Saladin's citadel in Cairo.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He's there in poetry, he's there in legal documents. He's not forgotten. There's a really nice line from an.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Ottoman administrator about 1700, and he says.

[Jonathan Phillips]

This is a different dynasty in Constantinople 500 years later. And he says books of history are.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Overflowing with stories about Saladin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

And that's just a really nice line. You know, it's there everywhere.

[Matt Lewis]

I mean, he sounds like someone you might actually like to meet. You know, lots of medieval rulers come off as people who are deeply unpleasant, however successful they might have been. But even if it's through the cipher of Safadin, Saladin sounds like he's someone you might actually quite like to meet and get along with.

[Jonathan Phillips]

You know, let's be clear, he could be merciless. He orders executions of the Templars and the Hospitallers. But, yeah, I think he's a fascinating character. I don't think he's a terribly brilliant general.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

I mean, he forces the Battle of Hattin.

[Jonathan Phillips]

I think it's his ability to draw people along with him, his understanding of propaganda and resource and things like that. You put all those things together. And his endurance in keeping going through.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

These series of illnesses.

[Jonathan Phillips]

He suffers from terrible colic. He can't get out of his tent, sometimes he can't ride a horse. His immune system packs in. At one point, he's got boils from his waist down all over his legs, really has a tough time of it, and he keeps going through that. But, yeah, he's undoubted to be a very charismatic man. And in later centuries or more recent.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Centuries, of course, given the politics of the near east, the idea of somebody.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Who draws the people of the region together, be they Turks, Arabs, Muslims, Kurds, I mean, again, different groups, people invoke.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The past for presentist reasons, and different groups pick on the bits that they. They would like to identify with.

[Jonathan Phillips]

But as the man who drew a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

People together and expelled Westerners from the holy city of Jerusalem has very obvious resonances for so many different groups, be.

[Jonathan Phillips]

They Islamists, be they nationalists that he's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There to be identified with. I suppose the other thing was, as.

[Jonathan Phillips]

We'Ve said, he's an attractive character in many respects.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He's not somebody who's a sort of dangerous psychopath who happened to achieve this.

[Jonathan Phillips]

So you can draw on him as a ruler to be admired in that.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Broader sense as well.

[Matt Lewis]

Absolutely fascinating. And I think what I'm maybe going to take away from this in particular is the idea that people in Oxfordshire are calling their children saladin by the 1240s. That's, that's brand new news to me. That's fascinating, Jonathan. It's been absolutely incredible to try and get a little bit closer to Saladin, to try and understand him and his work world a little bit better and to kind of get under the skin of what is going on around this period in the Holy Land. So thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Pleasure. Thank you.

[Jonathan Phillips]

Really enjoyed that conversation.

[Matt Lewis]

That was a great episode. Jonathan's book the Life and Legend of the Sultan Saladin is available at all good bookshops. If you'd like to discover more about this fascinating and charismatic figure, you can also find episodes in our back catalogue about the crimes committed by crusaders with Steve Tibble, the Templars and other aspects of medieval Crusades. There are new installments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and all of History hits podcasts ad free. Head over to historyhit.com subscribe. Go on, you know you want to. Anyway, I better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with history.

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