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- [00:01]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
- [00:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.
- [00:05]
Matt Lewis
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
- [00:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit with the History Hit subscription.
- [00:16]
Matt Lewis
You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries such as my new.
- [00:21]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans.
- [00:25]
Matt Lewis
Or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
- [00:29]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
- [00:32]
Matt Lewis
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show Notes for this episode.
- [00:51]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
ACAST powers the World's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend hi, I'm Pace Case. And I'm Bachelor Clues. We host Game of Roses, the world's best reality TV podcast. We're covering every show in reality TV at the highest level possible. We analyze the Bachelor, Love is Blind, Perfect Match, Vanderpump, and anything else you find yourself watching with wine and popcorn. We break down errors, highlight plays, MVPs, and all the competitive elements that make reality TV a sport. And we interview superstar players like bachelorette Kaitlyn Bristow and Big Brother champion Taylor Hale. If you want to know so much about reality TV, you can turn any casual conversation into a PhD level dissertation. You definitely want to check out Game of Roses. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were and how we when people think about religious fighting orders in the medieval period, which I am assured they do, it's the Templars that usually spring to mind first. After all, their rise and dramatic fall allows for a dramatization and questions about influence and power. But further to the east, there's a fighting order that, for my money, offers much, much more. They control their own kingdoms, convert swaths of what they call pagans, and were successful enough at navigating political vagaries that they still exist to this day. I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaunega, and today on Gone Medieval from History Hit, I'm speaking with Alexander Plukhovsky, professor of archaeology at the University of Reading and the author of The Teutonic rise and fall of a religious corporation about, you guessed it, the Teutonic Order, where we'll consider castles, converts, corporations and cultural memory. Alexander, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [03:43]
Matt Lewis
Thank you very much, Elena. Thanks for inviting me. And it's great to be on the show.
- [03:47]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I am absolutely delighted to have you here today because today we're going to talk about one of these things that we've been asked about a lot, and it's one of my favorite topics, which is the Teutonic Knights. And I think this is one of these groups that people have heard of. They're sort of aware of them as a group of individuals, but it doesn't necessarily get taught to us in Western Europe as one of the building blocks of medieval history. So I'm going to start you out with a nice general one to get us into this discussion. Who were the Teutonic Knights?
- [04:23]
Matt Lewis
Okay. Well, the Teutonic Knights started off as a very humble field hospital at the Siege of Acre during the Third Crusade. Literally a group of lay brethren, we can call them, in other words, a small organization dedicated to hospital care set up by German Crusaders to cater for German speakers at the Siege of Acre during this time. So they were doing the basic things you do in a hospital, ministering to the infirm, to the injured, and also soon started administering last rites to the dead, which made them a bit more serious. This was something that at the time in the Holy Land, the Hospitallers had a monopoly over. And so this caused a bit of tension and saw this group sort of try to fight for its independence as the Hospitallers tried to subsume and take over what they saw as this little upstart hospital, at which point they turned to the Templars for protection and got it. And this saw them, I suppose you would say, begin the path to what we would call militarization. So groups like the German Hospital were expected, maybe pull their weight is not really the correct term, but to contribute to the defense of the Crusader states in the Levant. And so when you then have more German Crusaders subsequently coming at the end of the 12th century, there is a sense that you've got here an organization that has already got some crusading experience that can contribute to the crusading effort. And so following the model of the Hospitallers, but also the Templars, you have this group becoming militarized. So they're given weapons, they're given training, they're given the responsibility to participate in crusading actions or the general defense of what's left of a Crusader states. And because they are a German organization, they just become referred to as the German Order. And the Teutonic Order is the Latin rendering of that that's just become popular in the Anglophone literature for whatever reason, for historical reasons. So they then attract a lot of donations, a lot of support. They become wealthier, they become bigger. They become proficient fighters, diplomats, administrators, as they're given more land to deal with. And so over time, they grow into a very significant and also independent institution, largely also because of their main supporters, the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor. So they become independent from the Templars and the Hospitallers and become their own organization, that is the Teutonic Order in a nutshell, in terms of their origins. They then become a big international corporation, much like the Hospitallers and the Templars. So they sort of follow the same trajectory, if you like.
- [07:29]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
What's the major difference between the Teutonic Knights and the other crusading orders? Is it literally just the German ness and the connection to the Holy Roman Empire in this case?
- [07:41]
Matt Lewis
Pretty much, yeah. They do tweak their rule ever so slightly because they take on the Templar rule, and they've also included elements from the hospital rule for organizing how they're dealing with welfare. Because we've got to remember they started off as a hospital, and they continue to have hospital functions, but they then sort of tweak it. So they have little things like they're allowed to eat a bit more meat than the Templars. But it's a way of differentiating themselves to say that we're separate and we're our own organization. We do things the way we want. And the Pope's happy with that. So because there's this constant fear of being merged with the other military orders, with these other big organizations that are dedicated to the defense of what's called the Latin east, the Crusader states in the Levant. So all of these groups are fighting for independence or sort of trying to maintain independence. And, of course, we all know what happens with the Templars once the Holy Land is lost and that order becomes susceptible to. To those who would like to seize its wealth. And then we know what happens in France. And so groups like the teutonicorps are always wary of maintaining their independence. So they do tweak things like the rule. They adopt their own emblem, the Black Cross. But otherwise they're more or less the same, you could say, as the Hospitallers in many respects. But I suppose famously, they become known for their wars against pagan societies in northeastern Europe. And that is something that separates them from the Other military orders that are much more known for their role in the Mediterranean Crusades and Holy wars.
- [09:21]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I absolutely love this. I'm sorry. It's very, very funny to think of such a German adaptation to a rule. We're different. We eat a lot of meat. Okay. Yes. It's a beautiful Holy Roman imperial invention. This is wonderful to be. But you've already hit on sort of the big thing. I think that when we talk about the Teutonic Knights is I think most people associate them very specifically with military activity in the Baltic region. And perhaps this is something to do with why they are such a successful order. Whereas we see, you know, the downfall of the Templars, because, you know, the Templars, you lose the Holy Land, and then you just have this really rich organization hanging out in France, and, you know, the king doesn't really like that. Whereas the Teutonic Knights seem to have managed to redeploy in a way that was useful to imperial ends.
- [10:18]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, absolutely. They're incredibly versatile, and I think they have some very insightful leaders, particularly their fourth master, Herman of Salsa, who is the one who basically gets them involved on all these different fronts. Firstly in the Kingdom of Hungary, in Transylvania, and then in the Baltic. And that happens over a relatively short period of time, you know, within a couple of decades. So by the time everything's gone wrong in the Mediterranean and they're thrown out, they're forced to relocate the headquarters to Venice, and they're sort of umming and ahhing. Do we stay committed to the defense of the Holy Land, or do we focus our energies on the war against pagans in the north? And they make that decision. But behind all of that is a tug of war within the Order's leadership. There are people in there who say no, especially in Venice, they want to keep hold of that leadership role. And they're like, okay, we've got the headquarters in Venice now let's fight to keep it here and try to restrict what the other members of the Order are doing elsewhere. So there's a bit of an internal tug of war. In the end, the Baltic factions, especially the group in Prussia, what is today northern Poland, in terms of a larger historical territory of Prussia, they win the argument and the headquarters gets relocated to the north. And it is very astute because like you said, it gives them a reason for continuing rather than just sort of sitting there accruing money. Okay. You know, we've got all these estates and houses, and they had many within the Empire itself, where they were very much part of the Imperial Church, if you like. They didn't wield sovereign power as they did in the Baltic. So they made good decisions, even though those were decisions that were the result of internal politics in many cases, but obviously proved to be much more successful.
- [12:07]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So they kind of leave the Holy Land, go to Venice, then up to. So would you say Transylvania is the first major port of call continentally after this?
- [12:18]
Matt Lewis
It is the first continental port of call, but actually it happens very early on while they're still operating in the Holy Land. So Transylvania, they're invited by the Hungarian King Andrew II in 1211. So actually, that's only really just over a decade after they're officially militarized by the Pope's approval. So early on, there is this recognition that, okay, the Holy Land is a crowded space. The Templars and the Hospitallers are calling the shots. We need to find our own niche. And, oh, look, the Hungarians are interested because the Hungarians have good German connections through the Queen of Hungary and her German court, who, you know, her daughter is getting married to the Duke of Thuringia's son, who happens to be best friends with a master of the order. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They get wheeled in there quite quickly. They don't last there for very long, only 14 years, and then they relocate to the Baltic immediately after that. So I guess what's important to remember for your listeners is that this is an organization that is operating on multiple fronts simultaneously. So they're in the holy land until 1291, by which point, pretty much all of the lands they rule in the Baltic have already been conquered. So they're incredibly successful at operating as a multinational corporation, for want of a better term, a militarized religious organization, essentially, that can operate in multiple regions at the same time. And obviously, these are risks. They're risk takers. They commit resources, they make difficult decisions, but they're successful and their gamble pays off.
- [13:55]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
How do they end up in the Baltic? You know, we see them in Transylvania as a result of an invitation. You know, they are in Venice because they've already got property there. But what brings these guys to the Baltic more specifically?
- [14:09]
Matt Lewis
So a similar kind of situation to Transylvania. They're invited by the Duke of Mazovia, who is probably the most powerful statesman in Poland, which at this time is fragmented into these little principalities. And everybody is jostling for control of the throne of Poland, of the overlordship, if you like. So this guy, the Duke of Mazovia, Conrad, is very keen on getting the throne in Krakow, in the capital. But the Northern borders of his duchy Mazovia, are one of the frontiers of Catholic Christendom. And the neighboring pagan groups, the Prussians, have been raiding. There's a state of war going on, and Conrad can't afford to focus on his main ambition, which is the Polish throne, and have pagans harassing his borders in the north. So he figures, okay, well, the German order, the Teutonic Order, they did their thing in Transylvania, maybe they can help me here. And this is how they get invited. And actually they're quite reluctant to begin with because they're probably thinking, didn't work out in Transylvania. We got kicked out, lost money, lost men. We're over committed in the Holy Land. It's all going wrong. And we want to be committed to Poland. So it took a few years for, for him to convince them. And the way that he did that, and this was also with the support of the Pope and the Emperor, was to give them land and to go, okay, this land that is on the frontier, that is my land that is being taken over by the pagan Prussians, it's yours if you can take it back and basically secure my frontier. And they go, okay. So after a few guarantees, the Emperor said, we can have it. The Pope said, we can have it. You said, we can have it. Great, we're in. And we're going to take back this land and we're going to establish ourselves in this frontier region. And that is the beginning of a long period of conquest because they take this land quite quickly and then proceed to conquer the rest of the region that is occupied by these Prussian groups at the same time. They then get involved in the Eastern Baltic, what is today Latvia and Estonia, previously in Latin, this is called Livonia. They get involved in 1237, when the previous military order that is running the conquests there, what are called the Sword Brothers, suffer a catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Lithuanians and Samurgishins that kills most of their membership. And so the remnants are amalgamated into the Teutonic Order. Basically, the Pope goes, can you take this on? The remnants of the Saul brothers go, please help us out here. And so they then take on the ongoing crusades in Livonia. And by that point, they're operating across the whole of the eastern frontier of Christendom, really from the north to the far south in the Mediterranean. And they've just become very successful. Decades and decades later. They've conquered large territories in northeastern Europe and entrench themselves. So that is how they become involved, really through invitations, not really by deliberate design. On their part to begin with.
- [17:23]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So what's going on on the sort of Livonian pagan side of things in here? Because we know lots about who wants the Teutonic Knights in, who would rather not see them around in the area, I guess, do we know?
- [17:38]
Matt Lewis
So similar to what's going on in the south and Prussia, you've got lots of individual groups who we would call Balts and Baltic Finns, two separate linguistic groups who are basically pagan, it's a Christian term, but similar sort of polytheistic religions that we see also in Finland, in Lithuania and then in Prussia. And they're the target of German missionary activity follows on the heels of merchants establishing new trade routes which ultimately they want to link up to the big markets of what is today Western Russia. That's what the German merchants are looking for. And on the way they encounter these pagan groups inhabiting what is Latvia and Estonia today. And the missionaries follow them and go, oh great, you know, we can establish missions here, convert pagans and establish a foothold for our own churches. And then these missions become threatened. In 1198, the leader of the German mission asks the Pope to declare a crusade so that he can bring an army along to protect the mission and the new converts and as usual, start a chain reaction that results in the conquest of the entire region. Because of course it's a self fulfilling process. The more converts you create, the more you need to protect them, the more problems you have with pagan neighbors. And so this becomes this cumulative process of conquest. The Sword Brothers, they created this local military order for the same reason the Templars were created and the Teutonic Order were created to meet a shortage of manpower basically in terms of military protection for these new Christian footholds, these new Catholic footholds. So these various groups in Livonia, some of them side with the Crusaders, these early converts, groups like the Livs, who give their name to Livonia as in the Christian Latin name that is used. Others, like the Estonians, resist for a long, long, long time. And the Estonians themselves are made up of many different groups. The problem is we only really know the details of these groups from the Christian sources because these cultures don't have a literate record of their own. We have to basically rely on archaeology for reconstructing how these different groups were organized, how their societies functioned. Of course we have the Christian record from the observers, from the missionaries, from the Crusaders, from priests largely who were witnessing the events. So we know about these groups often through their eyes, which of course you can imagine are problematic. In various ways. But we're talking about small scale societies with extended kinship groups dominated by local dynasties of aristocrats. That much the missionaries recognize. They're like, oh, okay, you have nobility, like we do in Western Europe. So they also approach the nobles, the leaders of these indigenous groups, and they're the first often to convert or resist, depending on how these alliances go. Just to finish. I know there's a complicated situation, but there is a big backdrop in what's going on in the Eastern Baltic. And that is a tug of war between the Russian principalities, who are Christian also, but Eastern Orthodox and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania are pagan. And these two superpowers are fighting for the trade routes and for influence in these regions. And all of these little small pagan groups are caught in between. And then the Germans come along and join in, basically. So it's quite a complicated sort of struggle between these various groups. And the native pagan groups are sort of caught in between everything.
- [21:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I find that such an interesting thing because in the first place, we have to do so much work to kind of get any understanding of what's going on with our non literate friends from the medieval period. And also you have this terrible tendency on the part of Christians to just say pagans are like us, but evil, you know, and they kind of. They sort of extrapolate that pagans have exactly the same hierarchical system in place and that everything is happening in the same way, but nefarious somehow. And it can be such a difficult thing to attempt to weed your way out of as a historian.
- [22:07]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, and it gets worse when the pagans convert en masse in their hundreds or sometimes in their thousands, at which point they become Christian overnight from the perspective of these clerics and missionaries. And then they become even worse because then they become apostates, having thrown off their baptismal oath. And obviously it's all one big imagined event in the minds of these chroniclers, because the reality on the ground is probably there isn't much going on terms of changes in beliefs or suddenly this acceptance of a completely new way of thinking about the world. We know this is a much slower process. So these overnight conversions and then the rejection of a conversion prompts even more venom and hostility in the written sources. You know, there's nothing worse than an apostate in the minds of these clerics. So you're right, it is just very confusing to really know what's going on from the native perspective, from the indigenous perspective.
- [23:27]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So we've got the Teutonic knights up around in the Baltic region. They've come in, they've absorbed the Sword Brothers, and you can completely understand why from their standpoint, like, this is the opportunity to be the Hospitallers right now. They're the guys. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know, and here's some people who have some on the ground knowledge but haven't been particularly successful. How do they go from being some guys who showed up, though, into being people who have their own state?
- [23:58]
Matt Lewis
Essentially, I suppose, because you can say they drive the territorial conquests of these regions, so they, over time, have complete control of the military enterprises that are Crusades. So in Prussia, we're talking about five decades of warfare, which, you know, is a long time for sustained warfare. It's not constant, but over this time, we have pretty much recurring episodes of military conflict. And yes, they bring in crusaders from neighboring regions, from the Empire, even from Poland, but they're in charge at the end of the day. And the Crusaders, when they fulfill their vow, they go home and the Teutonic Order remain behind to garrison these lands that have been slowly conquered bit by bit. So they become the dominant power, and the Pope gives them free reign. No one else really tries to claim these territories. You've got sort of nominal interest from the German emperors, but it's only nominal. They've got their own internal problems to deal with. And so the Teutonic Knights almost handed carte blanche for you guys can secure these lands for Christendom and you can rule them, and the Pope's keeping an eye on you, et cetera. Let's give credit to the order themselves. They've become very good as territorial administrators. And maybe after their experience in Transylvania, where they gained and then lost their land, they are keenly aware of what it takes to secure territory and to be a legitimate ruler. So they do a lot of things to legitimize their rule in Prussia and then in Livonia when they secure this territory. So they introduce their own coinage, they start introducing laws and appointing officials to govern on their behalf. Later on, they will build these spectacular castles, which are really symbols of authority. It's almost like a symbol of legitimate rule. So they do lots of things to give themselves credibility in the eyes of the people they've conquered, but also in the eyes of incoming Christian settlers, who then become their subjects, their tenants. They do spend a lot of energy becoming territorial rulers. It's not something that happens overnight, but they do make a concerted decision to do this. And actually the hospitals are doing the same. In the Eastern Mediterranean. It's not unusual for the military orders to act as territorial rulers, so they're not different, shall we say, to other military orders. And actually in Iberia we see the same with the Templars and hospitals. They're given land to govern at the frontier. So I suppose the Teutonic Order do it on a much bigger scale and they're much more successful and they do it in such a way that no one else can touch them. So their membership becomes huge. They build castles in all of these places that they've conquered and no one else can basically do anything to take that land back. So they secure themselves. And this becomes much more prominent in the 14th century when they annex a neighboring region of Eastern Pomerania and that sort of completes the construction of their state. So, yeah, they really become entrenched. Worth mentioning that in Livonia they're not the only rulers. So this is a region that originally was conquered by German bishops and in the north by the Danish king. So by the time the Teutonic Order get involved, the land's been divvied up between these various powers, including four bishops. And so here they're one player in a field with lots of other powers, whereas in Prussia they have a sole power pretty much. So we just have to bear that in mind because they have constant problems with these other groups who hold territorial power in Livonia, and there's constant jostling for power going on there.
- [27:59]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
How are they organizing themselves within this? Because, you know, we can see they're building castles, they're making coinage. How are they administering this? How do they break up these chunks of land into parcels? I suppose, yeah.
- [28:13]
Matt Lewis
Okay. So it's worth explaining that at the beginning of the Teutonic Order has quite a basic hierarchy, like the Templars, like the hospital is. They got their master, they've got a chapter that elects the master with these higher ranking officials. As they acquire more land in the Baltic, they start to appoint provincial masters, so essentially deputies who control these regions. They become very powerful figures, essentially rivaling the master in the Holy Land in a way, who then becomes referred to as the Grandmaster to distinguish himself from the other provincial masters. So you start to have the formation of this international hierarchy and the masters themselves then start introducing these organizational units into the conquered territories. So these are the term that's used as commanderies. They're basically units of land where a group of brothers from the order is in control in terms of its security and administration. This community of brethren is based in a building called a convent. And traditionally there should be 12 of these brothers to emulate the number of apostles. But in reality, it's often a lot more. Sometimes into the 40s, the biggest convents become massive, and they function as a corporate group ruling these individual territories, these commanderies, which varied in shape and size, and their boundaries change over time. So there's a lot of organization and reorganization. We have to remember that many of these brothers come from the noble families of the Holy Roman Empire. They are brought up with territorial administration as their lifeblood. That is what the sons of the noble German families are doing a lot of the time is running estates, running complicated estates with complicated neighbors in the Empire. So they come to the Order with some experience of land management, some of them, and they rise up the ranks and they become good territorial administrators. And so you have this. This network of commanderies that ultimately answer to the masters of the provinces, who then answer to the grandmaster. Later on, these commanderies are broken up into smaller districts when it becomes obvious that you need more people to manage this land effectively. So you start to see these little districts run by individuals called advocates and procurators. These are judicial posts brought in from the Empire, but they're used by the Order to delegate management of land to make it easier for these commanders, who are the heads of the convents running these commanderies. Yeah, so it's quite a sort of logical hierarchical structure, and it persists all the way through the Order's history. They maintain this organizational structure, but we have to remember it's a corporation. So there isn't a monarch. There isn't, if you like, an elite executive. Even though there are higher officials who make decisions, Everything is done by election. There are sort of nested chapters within the organizational structure who elect their leaders, who in turn elect the main leadership of the Order. So I suppose we talk about it as a corporate structure in terms of organization and management.
- [31:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That makes a lot of sense. And also, frankly, it's why they are so interesting, I think, for medieval historians such as ourselves, because it isn't the sort of organization that we get to see sea every day, and they're doing incredibly complex things over a huge range of land. But you. You've touched on this already. One of the things that I think we think about a lot now when we are thinking about the Teutonic Knights is their castles. Right. Because we're saying convent here, but that means castle quite often. And so what are some of the great examples of the Teutonic Knights castles that we see in this region?
- [32:14]
Matt Lewis
So the best preserved are in Prussia, which is today primarily northern Poland. There's a little sliver of it in western Lithuania and in Russia, the Kaliningrad Oblast. But Poland's got the lion's share after the Second World War. And there the Order built brick castles. And the best preserved really have survived here. A number of them have been reconstructed or conserved from the 19th century onwards. But obviously, probably the best known is the headquarters of the Order, which is today called Malbork Castle, previously Marienburg, the Castle of Mary. This becomes the Order's headquarters officially in 1309, when they relocate from Venice, but in practice from sort of a 1330s, late 1330s, when the Grandmaster actually moves there permanently. This castle is then built up over the 14th century. Its final form takes about 100, 120 years to build. It encompasses an area of around 21 hectares within its walls, which makes it the biggest castle in Europe, one of the biggest castles in the world. It is massive.
- [33:27]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That's enormous.
- [33:28]
Matt Lewis
It is enormous. It is huge because its outer walls include multiple systems of moats and embankments. But it is a huge, sprawling castle, and that is probably the one people should go to see if they want to see the power of the Order, because that reflects the wealth that the Order accrued and was able to pour into the building of these structures. And it's built almost entirely from brick, something that's constructed from the 1280s onwards and that's been restored. And you can get a sort of sense of it, of what it would have looked like, even though the restorations were creative in a number of respects, as you can imagine with these 19th century, early 20th century restorations, and then post war restorations. But there are lots of other castles, brick castles in Poland that you can see. Radzin is another one, Radzin Helminski Raiden in German. This only preserves well the front wing of a castle, the main entrance of the towers. The rest of it is a ruin, but it's one of a better preserved frontages of these castles. And then in Livonia, unfortunately, a lot of those castles were destroyed in subsequent wars. And so you only really have shells or partial shells surviving. So even the main convent of the Order, which would have been in Riga, was destroyed and rebuilt three times. So its current form, which is also where the presidential residence is in Riga today in Latvia, is from the 16th century. So the earlier forms of the Order's castle we know of partially through archaeological investigation, but you can get a sort of sense of it from going to see what it's like there. Otherwise, the best preserved is in Sessis, which is in the middle of Latvia, central western Latvia. This was Benden Castle by its original German name. And this probably has the best preserved castle fabric of all of the Livonian castles. So this is built from dolomite, from the local sandstone or limestone, and is very different to the brick castles that you see in Prussia. Obviously, it was also rebuilt, developed. What you actually see today is what it would have looked like primarily at the end of the 15th century, beginning of the 16th century, when you saw more investment in that castle. But still, it gives you a better sense than a lot of the castles that are ruins, just walls, nothing else, really. Maybe some of the moat systems, some of the Estonian castles are well preserved, but again, they've been rebuilt or restored. So there's one on the Russian border, on the Estonian Russian border, called Narva, that pretty much looks intact but has been restored, has been rebuilt, but gives you an idea of the kind of compact castles the Order built. Because it's worth mentioning that the castles are part of a brand of this corporation. So there is a unity in their design. And this is something I think the Order did deliberately across its territories. Obviously, it depended on how much money was allocated to build these castles. So they vary. But generally speaking, it meant that wherever you went, you knew who was in charge because it was part of a branding. So you would immediately go, oh, okay, the Teutonic Order is here. This is their branding, this is their castle. It looks exactly the same or similar wherever you go, the same format, the same design. There was a lot of variation in Livonia for various reasons, including topography. That meant castles were fitted to the land they were built on to a certain extent. But I think the Order had this corporate mindset where they wanted a standardized approach even to their buildings.
- [37:07]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
What does that look like? Aside from brick castles, which I guess we've already established, they don't all get made out of brick. But is there something in your mind that just screams, I'm looking at a Teutonic castle right now?
- [37:21]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. So they're not perfect squares, but rectilinear castles that are almost form these perfect squares. They're a few meters out in the measurements, but generally speaking, if you saw them from the air, you think, wow, this is a completely symmetrical building with the identical uses of space. So in terms of having the chapel on the first floor, across from the refectory, which is the communal eating area above the main entrance, you've got corner towers and then you've got a massive corner tower that is essentially like a keep. So you've got one fortified tower. Many of these castles then had a projecting tower, often called a latrine tower, or a danske, to use the German technical term. So these castles had replicable features, and people have speculated this was deliberate as well, to create a sense of harmony, of visual harmony, essentially reflecting celestial harmony. So it contributes to this idea of the order as legitimate rulers. They've been divinely mandated to rule. And this is the earthly perfection that is mirrored in. In heaven.
- [38:33]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I absolutely love that, you know, medieval people are such a one for attempting to. To mirror heavenly perfection. And I love that about them. As you stated, these castles are still part of the political fabric of a lot of the areas that the Teutonic Knights have ruled. So we can see them get recycled as presidential palaces. Do we see other massive impact from them in the area, be that archaeological or textual are these things that natives write about and think about as well?
- [39:06]
Matt Lewis
So they are now, because since the 1990s, there's been a lot more international interest in the Eastern Baltic countries in terms of tourism, which in turn has stimulated local interest in developing these castles. And there is more of a sense of local pride in these buildings. There was scholarly interest, academic interest already from the late 19th, 20th century, but unfortunately, these buildings were tainted by association with nationalism and with this reimagining of the medieval past as an ethnic war between the Germans and the native populations. And the castles were branded as symbols of German rule, which was something that the German empire in the 19th century and early 20th century, and then the Nazi regime encouraged that view. So obviously this then became very influential. And it's only really in recent decades have people gone back to it and thought, okay, so this is interesting heritage. And this actually happened in Poland relatively soon after the Second World War. So Prussia was part of Germany. It got allocated to Poland after 1945. And with that came all these castles. And it included the big castle in Marienburg, which had also seen a German garrison fighting against the Red Army. In the final months of the Second World War, the town was obliterated. The castle was badly damaged. The town was mined for bricks to rebuild Warsaw that had been destroyed by the Nazis completely. But a decision was made to leave the castle, not to dismantle it. And that was quite enlightening. Originally, I think the plan was to restore the castle to the time of Polish rule, because the castle in the later 15th century passed under Polish control. And this then became a residence of a Polish king. So originally it was, we're going to claim this castle back from from Germany by emphasizing how it was the residence of a Polish kings. But over time, the curators, the directors of what became the castle museum in the 1960s, decided that they were going to rehabilitate the Teutonic order. And they became serious medieval scholars. This was a time when medieval scholarship developed within Poland concerned with a Teutonic Order, more so in Germany, where it became a taboo subject after the second World war a little bit, it still remained a focus of scholarship, but in Poland it really took off. And in the 80s and 90s, it really took off. Once Poland also had gained independence from the Soviet Union. And there you saw a new form of medieval studies where they wanted to recognize a Teutonic order on its own terms, not in this concept of a German power basically waging ethnic war on its neighbors. And so the castle became redeveloped as a center of learning, of research, of education, of entertainment for the Teutonic order. And I think this really contributes to rehabilitating the Teutonic Order's view. So in Poland today, you can go and see the castles of a Teutonic order. And they are very much framed in that medieval sense. Rather than being framed in a sort of Soviet era sense of evil German heritage. They're now seen as part of the medieval history of the region. Some of them have become hotels. This is another side, this is another story, another story that is part of Central European treatment of castles and historical monuments where private ownership can do a lot of things to these buildings. And in a way it preserves them. Okay, they become hotels and restaurants, but they conserve the fabric. But there are some horror stories with how this fabric's been conserved and what's been done to the archaeology. But, you know, we don't need to go into that. But you can go and stay in some of these castles and, you know, kind of experience a Disneyfied form of what these castles used to be. So in a way, I suppose they're positively treated. Having said that, there are a lot of ruins that are falling apart, being ripped to pieces by undergrowth. There's no money to care for them. Some of them are under private ownership and they're just left as follies on people's land. So there is a lot that is crumbling and falling down largely because of a lack of money. I wouldn't say out of a lack of interest, because I think people in the Baltic countries are very interested in their medieval heritage. You have lots of history festivals taking place at these castle sites, reenactments, food festivals. I think there's a Lot of local heritage organizations that are very invested and interested in these buildings, not just from the medieval period, but from their post medieval history as well. So they have quite complex, lengthy biographies all the way through to the Second World War in the modern day. So I'd say that the heritage is of interest now. But of course in the back of people's minds you do still have this narrative of the struggle with the foreign invader. I think that's going to take a long time to shed, especially as the shadow of Russian imperialism is hanging over the Eastern Baltic to some extent. And it's not helping that the Russian regime is invoking the ethnic struggle of the historical period in its own propaganda.
- [44:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I'll tell you what, this is all incredibly familiar as someone who specializes in the Czech lands, but. Right, I bet, yeah, you know, a little bit of that, some of that, yeah. We have already been talking about what was happening in Prussia and Estonia, but by the time you get to the 14th century century, the Teutonic Order is starting to cast its eyes up to Lithuania. And this is very interesting to me because it's still such a stronghold of quote, unquote paganism at the time, which is an incredibly durable legacy. And it also seems to prove to be a bit of an issue for the Teutonic Order as well. You know, how. How does this all play out, I guess is my question.
- [45:39]
Matt Lewis
So the Teutonic Order are already encountering Lithuanians when they're conquering the Prussians because Prussians are getting support from the Lithuanians to fight against the order. I think the Lithuanians understand the threat, the long term threat this poses. And you have to remember that just to give your listeners a bit of context, Lithuania is a Grand Duchy, so a centralized state governed by grand dukes. And this creates a very powerful model of governance that is different to the previous model of governance that was based on local chieftains essentially very much like Prussia and Livonia. So this is maybe easier to overwhelm by groups like the Teutonic Order, but when you have this centralized form of government that also centralizes what we can call pagan religion and pagan religious institutions, you're quite a significant power. And so their borders, their western borders are with Prussian lands. Their northern borders are with what becomes Livonia. So the Lithuanians are already experiencing Christian aggression, shall we say, from both the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, from the Rus, and are aware of the threat. So they support the Prussians and they raid southern Livonia as well. They're also fighting with the local groups for control. So you know, they're attacking Estonia, they're taking Estonians as slaves back to Lithuania. So there's quite a complex power dynamic going on. The Teutonic Order, I think, set their sights on Lithuania quite quickly. They're pushing and pushing and pushing the boundaries of Catholic Christendom to the east. And ultimately they reach the land that they refer to in Latin as Sudovia, which is basically this large area on the borders of Lithuanian territory. And they conquer this by 1283. And in the Chronicle of the Conquest, written by Peter of Duisburg, who is our principal source for the crusade against the Prussians, he's writing a few decades later, he's a priest of the Teutonic Order, and he writes, the war with the Prussians ends, and the war with Lithuania immediately begins. It's almost like a continuous struggle against pagans. But of course, we know this has already been ongoing. So for the Order, it's a natural continuation. And in fact, the Lithuanians then take the initiative, raid the Orders conquered lands. And so there's a sort of tit for tat set of raids going on. But the Order very cleverly institutionalized this into a new crusading front. So they obviously see the writing on the wall. The Templars have been arrested by this point. They're going, we need to give ourselves a reason for being here. And it can't just be ruling the lands we've conquered. It's gotta be this higher mission, which is to protect Christendom and to expand the lands of the Catholic community. And the way we do that is to continue the war against the pagans in Lithuania and make Lithuania our own, bring it into the Catholic fold. And so this sees a century more even of warfare with Lithuania, where the Teutonic Order organize seasonal crusades, typically twice a year, and invite knights from all over Europe to participate. And people do. People come literally from everywhere, especially the French, especially the English, who love going on crusade in. In the east for all sorts of reasons. And the Order sustained this for even when the Lithuanians convert officially to Catholicism in 1386, the Grand Duke marries the Polish monarch Jadwyger, and the whole country converts, comes under the Pope's protection. But the Teutonic Order's response is no, this is lies, this is false conversions. We're going to keep going. In fact, we're not just going to keep going, we're going to intensify our attacks, which they do. But eventually that line sort of wears a little thin. And people from around Europe go, hold on, these People actually are now part of a Catholic community. You can't just keep attacking them, pretending they're pagans. So enthusiasm fizzles out and by the early 15th century, the Teutonic Order's campaigns wind down and just turn into full blown wars with Lithuania and Poland because the two are now united. So then this becomes more of a secular war between two neighboring powers, if you like. The crusading rationale ends officially. So it's incredible. The Teutonic Order sustain a century of crusading. Now historians have traditionally been skeptical about this. They've said this isn't really crusading, this is just opportunities for glory seeking and to take land and money. And yes, there is an element of that, of course, for renown for all these crusaders coming along, all these knights come along. But these are expensive journeys. We know the Teutonic Order are also issuing indulgences, which are the spiritual rewards for crusading. And I think recent scholarship has convincingly demonstrated there is a pious element to these expeditions that goes beyond just going and giving donations to your local monastery. I think there is this desire to be seen to crusade against pagans or against Muslims in the Mediterranean where you can. People still did at that time. And we know that knights sometimes would go to the Baltic and then go to the Holy Land, then go to Iberia, you know, so they do all the crusading, like a tour of all the crusading front lines, if you could afford it, you know, because it gets expensive after a while. But this is the price of spiritual salvation at the time in the minds of contemporaries. So I think that it was seen by many people as something you should do if you want to be like Richard the Lionheart, if you want to be like the old crusader kings, this is what you can do in the 14th century to live up to that kind of reputation. Because you're not going to get any land out there, really. You might gain wealth, booty, slaves, weirdly you can grab people to convert and they did. Nobles brought back native captives to re educate as Christians. But the real prize, I suppose is that renown, that feeling that you can place yourself on the same level as kings, like Richard, like Edward I, who did crusade. And then you can say, I'm better than my claimant to the throne who didn't do this, you know, didn't go on crusade, like Richard II didn't go on crusade, you know, therefore I'm better. So there is a feeling of that as well, that sort of spiritual renown.
- [52:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, I think that One of the dates that we tend to bring up when we're talking about the Teutonic Order is. Well, historians love to have a hinge point, don't we? And I think one of the ones we bring up all the time is the Battle of Grunewald and 1410 in this. And I'm wondering if you can tell our listeners a little bit about that and why this is one of the things that we like to throw around as a handy way in.
- [53:01]
Matt Lewis
This is the culmination of what's called the Great War between Poland, Lithuania and the Teutonic Order. It's a continuation of a previous conflict. Basically, this is a Teutonic Order pushing to try to split Poland and Lithuania by encouraging internal candidates within Lithuania to fight each other, and basically encouraging a sense of civil war to try to weaken this Polish Lithuanian union that surrounds the Order's Prussian lands. Unfortunately for them, it doesn't work and the union remains pretty solid despite some internal problems. What basically happens is that the Lithuanians encourage an uprising in Samogisha, which is the westernmost region of Lithuania that essentially becomes part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. But it's the region that the Teutonic Order had been trying to get hold of for over a century. And eventually they do. They manage to get hold of it, but only for a short period of time. They face several uprisings. The uprisings are always supported by the Lithuanians, and in this case it's a pretext for war. And so the Teutonic Order end up fighting Poland and Lithuania. They meet not far from their border in Prussia at the place you mentioned, Grunewald or Tannenberg in German. And the reason people go on about this battle ad nauseam is because of the casualties. A lot of people are killed. It is a defeat for the Teutonic Order. The Grand Master of the Teutonic Order is killed along with many of the leading officials and many of the brethren. So it is a massive defeat for the Order, but it is a symbolic defeat because the Polish and Lithuanian forces then rush to the headquarters to Marienburg Castle, besiege it, but fail to take the castle and withdraw, and basically the Order remain intact. They have to pay war reparations, which actually is the beginning of the end for them. Financially, that is a big crippling issue, but they remain intact. And because they're a corporation, they just elect a new leader and everything's fine. So in a way they hold their structure. They get reinforcements from their Livonian houses. And so it's a long Slow death. But historians love this as a hinge point a, because it's a spectacular battle that is then promoted in national histories in the 19th century as the great struggle between the Germans and the Slavs and the bolts. And so this becomes celebrated as this is the time we defeated the Germans by Polish nationalists, by Lithuanian nationalists. And that is why, because then all the historians writing the first histories, so the first histories of Poland that are written in the 19th century, the first, shall we say, national histories, the first national Lithuanian histories that are written, all of these celebrate the battle as part of this narrative of this big ethnic struggle. And that is why it's come down to us today as one of the greatest battles of the Middle Ages. It is a great battle insofar as, yeah, symbolically, the leader of the order was killed. It is a massive blow to the order in terms of its image. But in terms of what happens afterwards. It's not that quick victory that people think it is in terms of a battle. The order sustain themselves for another century. Okay, they lose half of their lands in 1466, 50 years, 56 years later, but still, it's a slow death, really. But I think it's because of this national image. And this battle is reenacted every year in Poland still today, this big sort of national narrative is there where the Teutonic orders defeated. I think it's more tongue in cheek these days.
- [56:57]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I'm afraid that, you know my answer. When people ask me about it, I've got the unsexy answer where I'm like, the Reformation, you know, which is. That's not what nobody wants to hear. Right. But I would fundamentally. You sort of hit the nail on the head here, right? These guys had so much land that you can lose half your land in reparations. And it's. Yeah, still pretty good going, you know.
- [57:19]
Matt Lewis
Still pretty good going, yeah. And actually they last in Eastern Prussia and in Livonia. In Livonia even longer. It takes a Russian invasion to finish off Livonia and to finish off the Teutonic order in Livonia, or rather to persuade them to secularize, adopt Lutheranism. But that's what it takes, really, is a massive sort of regional conflict that really pushes them over the edge. So they're incredibly resilient and versatile. And then, of course, they survive in the empire, as they have done throughout the Middle Ages, where they just become an institutional part of a church, as they had been throughout the course of the medieval period. Like you said, Lutheranism is the final death knell. But it's just the Teutonic Order, swapping clothes for dropping the white garment, putting on black robes, getting rid of a cross, keeping the eagle and turning its convents into manors and castles. So it's basically just maintaining power, but under a different name, I suppose. Crucially, losing that corporate organization and severing ties with the Papacy and with the Catholic Church. So it is a break. It is a real break. It's not an artificial, superficial switchover in that sense. So we can say that those worlds end in 1525 in Prussia, 1561 in Livonia, and that is the real end of the crusading world of the Teutonic Order in the Baltic. But of course, the Teutonic Order is around today. It has continued in Vienna. It relocated to Vienna in the early 19th century and its headquarters remain there to this day. And the Order is an active branch of a Catholic Church today. And it does reflect upon its crusading heritage critically, but it is still there. So in a way, the Teutonic Order never really went away.
- [59:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's a hell of a run.
- [59:10]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's impressive.
- [59:13]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Alexander, this has been such an incredible pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
- [59:20]
Matt Lewis
Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. Thank you.
- [59:23]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Thanks so much again to Alexander for joining me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. If you're interested in learning more about the Fighting Orders, you can check out our episode on the Knights Test Templar or the Rise of the Crusader States. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries that are released weekly and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription if you can't bear to be apart from me for a whole week, there are some fabulous films that we've made to enjoy, including my recent series Meet the Normans. Or for more on nights you can check out my series Going Medieval where I cover the lives of the nobles or those who fight. Remember that. You can also follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can review the show and leave us comments on episodes or requests for future ones. You can also drop us a review or rate us Wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help new listeners to find us. As always, my co host Matt Lewis will be back on the Gone Medieval Throne on Friday and once again, I'll see you in again on Tuesday. Until next time, Acast Powers the World's Best Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. We all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks and maybe even bad years. But the good news is we don't have to figure out life all alone. I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of ted's how to Be a Better Human podcast, and our show is about the little ways that you can improve your life. Actual practical tips that you can put into place that will make your day to day better. Whether it is setting boundaries at work or rethinking how you clean your house, each episode has conversations with experts who share tips on how to navigate life's ups, downs. Find how to be a Better human wherever you're listening to this ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.