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- [00:01]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
- [00:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.
- [00:05]
Matt Lewis
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
- [00:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit.
- [00:14]
Matt Lewis
With the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original.
- [00:20]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Documentaries such as my new series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans, or my.
- [00:25]
Matt Lewis
Recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
- [00:29]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
- [00:32]
Matt Lewis
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show notes for this episode.
- [00:49]
Kristen Bell
Now at Verizon we have some big news for your peace of mind for all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on my plan and my home. That's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [01:20]
Holly Fry
Our Skin Tells a Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:01]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennica and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. It is said that in a cave under the Kiefhauser Mountains in Thuringia, there sits a king. From his face grows a massive red beard so long it has grown through the table at which he sit. He is surrounded by an army of sleeping knights, while he himself waits with half opened Eyes. Whether contemplating or sleeping, it's impossible to say. From time to time, he lifts his hand and sends out a boy from the cave and into the light. The boy must report whether or not ravens are still circling the mountain. Thus far, the boy has always reported that the ravens remain, meaning that there's no need for this great king, Frederick Barbarossa, to ride out with his army and restore the German lands to the greatness they experienced under his rule as Holy Roman Emperor and King of the Germans. It's a great story. In fact, it's so good that versions of it apply to the Emperor Frederick II in Sicily, to St. Wenceslaus in the Czech Republic, and, of course, King Arthur here in England. But why Barbarossa? What is it about this emperor in particular that has inspired such romantic legends and made him into one of the few medieval household names to sort fact from fiction and legacy from legend? Today, I'm joined by Professor Graham Loud, author of the new biography Frederick Barbarossa. Graham, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [04:24]
Matt Lewis
Thank you for inviting me.
- [04:26]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I am delighted to speak to you because I always love an opportunity to talk about the Holy Roman Empire and Holy Roman Emperors. And I think today we are talking about one of the real household names of the Middle Ages. Who is the emperor Frederick Barbarossa. But that, I suppose, leads me to a fairly large question right at the beginning, which is exactly who he is and for Frederick Barbarossa, and why is he one of these particularly large and well known names?
- [04:58]
Matt Lewis
Well, Frederick Barbarossa was king of Germany from 1152 to 1190, and he was crowned emperor in 1155. So he had a very long reign, and it is historically a very significant reign, particularly with regard to the German emperor's relationship with Italy. And he became, in retrospect, perhaps. Well, I say more significant than he was. His reign was significant, but not perhaps in the sense that later centuries thought it was. But of course, it was. Fairly soon after his death, the German kingdom started to fragment and Germany eventually fragmented down to a very large number of principalities and city states and so on, and only reunited in the 19th century under Bismarck. And particularly to German patriots of the 19th century, Barbarossa was significant as almost the last great medieval emperor, the last man who really ruled over Germany and not just reigned. So he became a fairly potent misfigure. And that's shown by some of the public monuments of the 19th century, like the decorations of the rebuilt imperial palace at Goeslar, the Kiefhauser Monument, which is a monument to the Emperor William I But underneath the great equestrian statue of William I, there's a statue of Barbarossa the foot of the monument. And of course, it was signified in 1941 when the invasion of Russia was codenamed Operation Barbarossa, named after the great emperor. And by all accounts, that name was the personal choice of Adolf Hitler, which of course is, to our minds, this is a slightly unfortunate part of his legacy. But he was seen as the great German patriot of the Middle Ages, the great hero figure, rightly or wrongly.
- [07:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I think this is an incredibly important point because the 19th century is so incredibly responsible for a lot of the medieval myth making that we sort of live with now. And I think there was rather a lot of attempting to go to the past and find individuals such as this to justify coalescing ideas of nationalism. So, you know, the argument for a united and cohesive German state really rests on finding figures like Barbarossa who can be said to be ruling a contiguous area such as this, when in the Middle Ages, as you say, oftentimes things are much more fragmented than we think of them now.
- [07:50]
Matt Lewis
Well, the interesting thing is that today, in the sort of 2000s, we can come to terms much more easily with local devolution, federal states, Whereas in the 19th century, the emphasis was so much on the nation state, although one might argue that medieval Germany barely was a nation. And indeed, for quite a long time, up to certainly the 12th century, there was no real concept of what to be German was. It was much more important. You were a Saxon or a Bavarian or a Swabian. Arguably, that was the case in Barbarossa's day, although they did use the term, you know, the kingdom of the Germans. But I suspect to most Germans, it's still more important to be a Bavarian or a Saxon rather than inverted commas, a German.
- [08:44]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So I suppose I have a fairly basic question for you simply about naming conventions. We have this nickname, Barbarossa. Where does that come from? Does this man actually have a red beard, and is it that notable?
- [08:57]
Matt Lewis
Yes, he did. It's the name given him by the Italians, contemporary descriptions, although we've obviously got to be a bit careful with them because they often draw on models. But we have a couple of contemporary descriptions of him, and certainly he was blondish, you know, blondie red.
- [09:14]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I love these things from the Middle Ages that survive where you have particular physical descriptions that come down to us because we often lack these. It's interesting that we, for example, you know, people will talk about how beautiful Eleanor of Aquitaine is, but we have no idea what she looked like. So I'm really thankful when things, things like Barbarossa takes off as a name because then it gives us some little hint about him.
- [09:39]
Matt Lewis
I mean, we obviously, we don't know exactly what he looked like, but we do have a quite good physical description, particularly by an Italian chronicler who did know him. He was blonde, tending to red, apparently had very good teeth. He's quite eloquent though. He speaks German but he's eloquent in German. Unlike his half brother who was notoriously taciturn. We can't believe everything about the description. I mean, we're told that he was always sort of good tempered and very slow to get angry, which some other sources suggest is not quite true. He obviously had quite a quick temper, but when he was on his best behaviour, no doubt he gave this rather affable air off. So, you know, we know a bit more about him than we do about some people. But with rulers there's always the issue that there is a rather formal, this is the way a ruler ought to look in these descriptions.
- [10:34]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
This brings me to my next question, which is what are the sources that we're using to reconstruct ideas about his reign or his personality?
- [10:42]
Matt Lewis
Well, we have a number of contemporary chronicles. I mean, the major difficulty with Barbarossa is that a lot of people rely on so called deeds of Frederick Barbarossa by Bishop Otto Freising and his continuator. But that only covers the first nine years of the reign. But we have a number of other chronicles. The ones I've particularly used and am familiar with are the Saxon Chronicle by a man called Arnold of Lubeck and an anonymous description of Barbarossa's Crusade written right at the end of his life. And I'm familiar with those two because I translated both of them into English and published them.
- [11:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And, and I suppose this is as good an entry as any into a fair description of what the Holy Roman Empire really looks like in the 12th century. You know, this is a really important time in terms of coalescing imperial power. So what lands are kind of under the nominal control?
- [11:45]
Matt Lewis
Well, it hasn't quite collapsed yet. The first thing I've got to remember is the term Holy Roman Empire is essentially anachronistic. It was only really used from the 13th century onwards. Barbarossa certainly calls himself Emperor of the Romans, but essentially what you've got is an empire which comprises Germany and northern Italy. But you must remember that Germany was considerably bigger at this period than the modern day Republic takes in. Switzerland takes in modern day Belgium and the Netherlands, part of eastern France in the sort of Jura Alsace region, Austria and parts of Croatia, Istria. So it's pretty big. And the emperor also claimed to be king of Italy, though the Kingdom of Italy in the 12th century really meant only northern and central Italy, because there was the new kingdom, Sicily, in the south. So he's undoubtedly the major territorial ruler within Europe and he still does rule over this area. Remember, there's relatively little administrative infrastructure. He mainly rules where he goes himself. And given the size of his empire, there were parts of it he spent a lot of time in, and parts of it he hardly ever visited. And Barbarossa, unlike his immediate predecessors, spent a lot of time in Italy for the first two thirds of his reign. He's to considerable extent an absentee ruler in Germany.
- [13:16]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
This is a very important point. You know, this kind of peripatetic imperial ruling can oftentimes give us an idea of where real issues are, because you couldn't perhaps leave the German lands if you feel as though you have a strong enough grip on them. Whereas I suppose it kind of makes sense to be within the Italian lands if things are a bit more fracturious. But, you know, if you've got parts of Istria, for example, that you are worried about, you might need to make it down there. There are all sorts of tensions that can exist within this large a contiguous state to rule. So is there a lot of troubles that he inherits in particular, or is there tension that happens as a result of his own desire to control this much land rather directly?
- [14:12]
Matt Lewis
Well, he controls some areas more directly than others. I don't think he ever went to Istria, for example. Barbarossa was undoubtedly focused on Italy, but that was precisely because his immediate predecessors have not been. I mean, the emperors from half a century before. Barbarossa had only been to Italy four times total, and three of those had been largely going down to Rome for the imperial coronation. They'd hardly ever been in Lomboli, which is the most populous, most advanced bit of Italy. The most. They just pass through. And if you're going to your Imperial coronation Rome, the last thing you want to do is get fouled up by disputes with cities along the way. So to some extent, I think in Italy there's a case of either use it or lose it. If he's going to reassert imperial control in Italy, he couldn't leave it too long. And his immediate predecessor, his uncle Conrad iii, had never actually got to Italy. He'd never been crowned emperor. So there'd been a long hiatus. And during that period, the Italian cities of the north largely ruled themselves. So they developed institutions of government, town councils, magistracies.
- [15:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
They were used to getting by without the emperor, fundamentally. Right. And Italy was the most advanced area economically in Western Europe at this time. So if the emperor can reinsert direct control, he can enjoy an income and, you know, a cash income from that, which would be hugely helpful, as a lot of Barbarossa's income from his other German states was still in kind and not cash. Right.
- [16:01]
Matt Lewis
So it's worth being in control of northern Italy. And I think he feels, well, if I don't reassert my control now, we really will lose it forever. So that explains perhaps why he's in Italy. But the corollary of that is he needed to keep good relations with the German princess. What he couldn't afford was to have a dispute with one of the major princes, or almost as bad if you have two princes in dispute with each other and a sort of local civil war going on in one part of Germany, because that would both prevent people sending reinforcements to Italy to help the emperor and would demand his presence to stop it. And when he was in Germany, he spent a lot of time damping down dispute among the princes, and particularly with regard to the most powerful among the princes, Henry of the Lion, Duke of Saxony, Bavaria, who seems to have had a remarkable knack of annoying his neighbors. And on at least two occasions, Barbarossa calms down a potential civil war in North Germany. Very much so this won't interfere with his next campaign in Italy.
- [17:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
He's got a really great reputation as this rather canny statesman, and I think it's just as well for all of us that he got to the throne in the end. But I suppose here is a good time to talk about how it is that he got there in the first place, because he's from the Staufen dynasty and he's got this real pedigree. Can you tell us a little bit about his family lineage and how it is that he managed to get into a position where he could become one of the most important men in Europe?
- [17:50]
Matt Lewis
Well, of course, it's the issue about how do you create a pedigree? Because actually, the Stauffer were relatively newly arrived. I mean, the first figure who's significant is Barbarossa's grandfather. We know very little about him, though he was a Swabian nobleman, but who married the daughter of the Emperor Henry IV and was made Duke of Swabia but in a sense, Barbarossa's, you know, the Stauffen family's role as one of the great families of Germany only goes back two generations, but that's enough.
- [18:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yes. And then his uncle Conrad III was the king of the Germans. And in many ways, he's Barbarossa's predecessor. Right.
- [18:31]
Matt Lewis
Conrad had two sons. One of them predeceased his father, having already been nominated as king of Germany, the successor. The other son was very young. Conrad may well have intended to nominate him as king and successor just before his death, but he died before he could do that. And Barbara Ostom moved very fast to secure his own election as ruler. Though it looks as though the quid pro quo was he promised that he would look after Conrad's son and he made him Duke of Swabia. He ensured that he got a share of the family lands. And so up to a point, he played fair. And obviously, from the point of view of Germany, having a new King who was 29 as opposed to one who was about 8, had certain advantages. But it does look like a coup d' etat, albeit a peaceful one. And it's interesting that having been elected king, Barbarossa moved like lightning from Frankfurt, where the election took place, to Aachen, which is the traditional site of coronation, and was crowned less than a week later. And yet, when he gets to Italy and is dealing with the Italian towns, he's often clunkingly careless and insensitive.
- [19:58]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
What do you think accounts for that? Is it just a greater understanding of German life? You know, being someone who's this important? Is it just a misunderstanding of how Italian politics works with a statesman at this level?
- [20:15]
Matt Lewis
I think it's a problem of dealing with a different sort of social structure. He clearly gets on well enough with Italian aristocrats. Now, these town councils were hardly democratic. I mean, we're talking about cities which are run by the richest burghers, wealthy merchants, some nobles. But he clearly found it more difficult dealing with people who weren't on his sort of social level and social radar. I suspect in modern terms, he's probably a considerable snob. But it's also, you know, he has a feeling that the emperor has rights in Italy which belonged to his predecessors. And I think he felt that the Italian cities were trying to take over his prerogatives in a way they'd no right to do so.
- [21:07]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
There's a great deal of resistance within Italy to these campaigns, is there not? I mean, there's your classic papal disputes with. With the emperor, which I always come to expect. But we also have, for example, the Lombard League, who crops up against him.
- [21:24]
Matt Lewis
The development of the Lombard League was one of the really decisive moments of the reign. Barbarossa's major problem in the first 10 years or so of his reign is malady. Milan was the largest of the north Italian cities. It was the most powerful, most populous. And Milan was particularly resistant to any exercise of imperial rights within the city or within its territory. Now, by 1162, it looked as though Barbaross had won. He'd besieged Milan, he'd forced the city to surrender, and they did insist that the city was evacuated. The walls were destroyed, quite a lot of the city was destroyed. It's left deserted, which, among other things, was an object lesson to other Italian cities that it's not a good idea to oppose the emperor at that point, though clearly the dispute with Alexander III is causing problems. It's not really more than the contributory issue to his problems in Italy. But over the next few years, Barbarossa rather overplays his hand. And more to the point, the officials he appoints in Italy seem to have been pretty active in feathering their own nests, abusing their powers and putting people's backs up. So when he next came to Italy in 1166, 7, there's quite a lot of resistance. And as he marched south towards Rome, the Lombard cities combined together in a formal alliance called the Lombard League. And that Lombard League worked. Cities said that we'll put aside our disputes one with another. The Milanese promised they wouldn't attack their neighbors. Even some of the cities which had hitherto supported Barbarossa joined the Lombard League more or less willingly, some more than others. His control over Italy had more or less vanished within the space of that six months. And when he next came to Italy in 1174, he was faced with an alliance against him which had had time to solidify. And also his army in 1174 was considerably smaller than five or six or seven years earlier. And it looks as though the strain of continuous campaigns in Italy was beginning to tell in Germany.
- [24:18]
Kristen Bell
Now, at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on myplan and my home, that's future, you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone piece of mind because of Verizon, whether you're already a customer customer or you're just joining us. We got you visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell. Carvana makes car buying easy.
- [24:51]
Matt Lewis
Isn't that right hun?
- [24:52]
Kristen Bell
Dax?
- [24:53]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Dax, sorry, did you know about this seven day money back guarantee.
- [24:58]
Kristen Bell
A week to evaluate seat comfiness, you.
- [25:00]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Say a week of terrain tests?
- [25:03]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, I can test the brake pad.
- [25:04]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Resistance at variable speeds.
- [25:06]
Kristen Bell
Make sure all the kids stuff fits nicely.
- [25:08]
Matt Lewis
Make sure our stuff fits nicely.
- [25:10]
Kristen Bell
Oh the right.
- [25:12]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Still need to buy the car. Getting ahead of ourselves here.
- [25:15]
Kristen Bell
Buy your car with Carvana. Today.
- [25:18]
Holly Fry
Our skin tells a story. Join me, Holly Fry and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasional, occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:12]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's interesting because as you say, the Lombard League was this alliance of northern Italian cities formed purely to resist Emperor Frederick Barbarossa's control. Right? So Barbarossa made some terrible mistakes, as emperors are wont to do. You know, he destroyed Milan to intimidate others, which also didn't work. In fact, the super harsh rule and the corrupt officials angered a lot of people to the extent that when he returns to Italy, the cities are all united to oppose him and even his former rivals, which is, that's a real, that's a real feat, you know. And then there's this deadly epidemic that weakens Barbarossa's army and that sparks a major rebellion. And the League's unity led to Barbarossa's defeat and escape. So, you know, it wasn't that the German princes were necessarily opposed to campaigns in Italy, but by this point they had lost so many family members or lost men and had spent a lot of their resources on this. So they really were finding it difficult to stay on board with Barbarossa. They don't have the sunk cost fallacy working. So what happened next?
- [27:28]
Matt Lewis
Ultimately, he was defeated in a pitched battle, the only one of all these campaigns at a place called Legnano in 1176. And it was after the defeat of Legnano that he clearly decided to cut his losses. And the only issue was on what terms the peace was made. And this eventually took place at this great conference at Venice 1177, where he concluded a long truce with the Lombard League and concluded an even longer truce with King William II of Sicily.
- [28:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So this is an incredibly simplistic question, given how many moving parts there are at this. You know, we have bishops to consider. We have Lombardy as opposed to Tuscany, we have the kingdom of Sicily. But would you characterize Barbarossa's interventions on the Italian peninsula as successful? You know, overall, is this a story where we have another emperor in over his head, or is this. Did we see any inroads at all?
- [28:37]
Matt Lewis
I suppose, enbalance? No, he wasn't successful. He may have come quite. Seem to have come quite close to it at times, but the 1177 conference is an omission of defeat. He wasn't totally unsuccessful in the sense that in the last years of his reign, he was still very much in control of Tuscany and Umbria and the Emilia Romagna. I mean, effectively, he conceded self government, but at the same time, the Lombard cities agreed to pay him an annual subsidy in return for the royal rights they were exercising. So he doesn't lose out completely. So, yeah, there is a peace. But you'd have to say, on balance, the Italian policy didn't work, or not to the extent that he wanted it to work. And that in the end, it all went pretty well wrong. And his attempts to impose his own pope didn't work. And his relations with the popes in the 1180s are tense. Never outrightly hostile, but they're pretty tense. And there's a lot of issues to dispute.
- [29:47]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I would qualify that as tense, certainly. I think that's a fair enough word.
- [29:51]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, it's sort of Cold war, but it's probably cold war, 1962 vintage. Perhaps there could be an explosion.
- [30:01]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
This, I think, is an interesting point, though, because this is a man who is in a really interesting position politically, and as all emperors are with the papacy, because this is also a man of some particularly sensitive religious sentiment, because, I mean, quite famously, he's involved in not one, but two Crusades as well. Could you tell us a little bit about his involvement in the Second Crusade before any of this kicks off?
- [30:31]
Matt Lewis
Well, this was. Barbarossa was still quite a young man. He had just succeeded his father as Duke of Swabia. His father died a few months before the Crusade set off, and he was effectively second in command of the German contingent, remembering that the king of Germany was his uncle and he plays quite a significant role. Insofar as we can see, though must remember, the sources for the German involvement in the Second Crusade are pretty limited. Otto Freising took part in the Crusade as well, but in his history he says almost nothing about it. He simply says, you know, it didn't work, so I won't talk about it. But it did mean that when Barbarossa went on Crusade right at the end of his reign, he did know what he was getting himself into. And given that the Second Crusade had been pretty unsuccessful, and some of that at least was due to the problems with the leadership, he had a pretty good idea of what not to do. One of the problems secondary Crusade had, it had a huge number of non combatants trailing along in the army's wake. Now, medieval armies tended to do. But there's a lot of comment by contemporaries about the Second Crusade, about the non combatants and what a drag they were on the army and how they tend to get massacred. When Barbarossa was setting out on the Third Crusade, he takes a long time organizing it. He makes some quite serious regulations. He tries to discourage people who don't have the financial resources or the weaponry to go on crusade. He sends some people home. He tries to avoid this great train of useless mouths accompanying the army. And he also conducts a very intelligent diplomatic campaign to try and ensure that he can march through along this long route, through the Balkans, through the Byzantine Empire, through Asia Minor, down to Syria without too much trouble. And the aim of all this is to ensure free passage for his army and the provision of markets where they can buy food. When he actually went on crusade in 1189, the contemporary comment is clear that his army is well disciplined. He keeps it in hand.
- [33:22]
Kristen Bell
Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on my plan and my home. That's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on my plan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [33:52]
Holly Fry
Our skin tells a story. Join me, Holly Fry and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with Psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [34:44]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I think that this is such an incredibly important point, and it's so interesting because it is just intensely clever because all of the issues that other Crusades end up having in terms of provisioning or simply panicking people on their way through, I mean, the first Crusade is in absolute shambles in terms of what they're doing to the Kingdom of Hungary or, you know, the absolute shock that Byzantine Empire has when you have all these people show up on their doorstep. I mean, I just think that Barbarossa is such a clever leader for attempting to make these particular inroads before he ever sets off. And we very rarely see planning on this level when it comes to Crusade.
- [35:32]
Matt Lewis
Well, it helped that there was a degree of diplomatic contact in him. I mean, the interesting thing is he even sends an embassy to Saladin. Admittedly, the embassy says, get out of Jerusalem, hand back the true cross. But I think the point is that he and Saladin had actually been in diplomatic contact earlier. So what effectively he's doing is sending a formal declaration of war about saying, you had your chance not to have a war, it's your choice to have one. But it wasn't that the Crusade was trouble free. And his major problem is really with the Byzantine Emperor. And when Barbarossa's army turns up, the Byzantine Emperor sends a legation saying, well, you didn't tell me you were coming. Although Barbarossa said with some justice, well, I've sent you two embassies, so how could you not know I'm coming? But clearly there. There was a worry about a large. This was a very large army going through Byzantine territory. And of course, there is the problem of the two emperors, because both the Byzantine Emperor and the German Emperor claim that they are the one and only Roman Emperor. And the Byzantine Emperor did not get the diplomacy off to a good start by sending a letter addressed to the King of the Germans. And naturally he got one back addressed to the King of the Greeks.
- [36:57]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I love it. I love it.
- [36:59]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. Once Barbaross's army got into Byzantine territory, there started to be attacks on it. Some of them may be the standard stuff of the local inhabitants. Not liking all these foreigners coming through their territory. But the suspicion among the leadership of the Crusade was that it was all being orchestrated by the Emperor Isaac. And then Barbarossa needed ships to take his army across the Bosphorus, and obviously the best source of those ships was the Byzantine navy, which Isaac wasn't willing to do, although he might have been more sensible as saying, of course, I'll help you, and getting them out of his territory as fast as he could. I do get the impression the Emperor wasn't very bright, but that may be just my prejudice. I mean, in the end, he does get the ships, but only after he's devastated Thrace and there's been a long delay. And then, anyway, they got across the Bosphorus, they move from Byzantine into Turkish territory, and then the army starts getting attacked again. So by the time they've got through to the later stages of, you know, Southeast Asia Minor, there's been a lot of fighting and the army is very short of food, but it's still an army in being. And whatever attacks the Turks made on it, they didn't stop it. It got to the Christian kingdom of Armenia. It's in friendly territory, it's essentially there. But then Barbarossa drowns crossing a river.
- [38:32]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's so in, you know, undignified. You have this great story, it's very romantic, kind of heading out to the Middle east and then, you know, drowns in a river. It's. It's anticlimactic, I suppose, Occupational problem of campaigning.
- [38:46]
Matt Lewis
But depending on which account you read, either he was crossing the river and was swept off his horse. Remember, Barbara Russell was in his late 60s by then. He's not, you know, he's, by contemporary span, is quite an old man. The other account, which I rather like, is he got across the river, he had lunch, but it was a really hot day, so went for a swim and drowned. We don't know which is true, but you pay some money. Takes a choice. But even then, there was still an army in being. His second son, also, Frederick, took over as commander of the army. I mean, I think Frederick had been doing a lot of the tactical command anyway. He seems to have led most of the attacks on the Turks, for example, and the army got to Antioch, Christian territory, still an army in being. What really did for Barbarossa's army was the epidemic which broke out in Antioch.
- [39:42]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And, I mean, it's again, one of these things where it's an occupational hazard of any real military campaign. And certainly the ones that head to the Middle east, you know, you've got particular challenges that you're going to have with huge numbers of people passing through large amounts of territory. And you just do pick up germs here and there, don't you, you know.
- [40:03]
Matt Lewis
Well, yes, and particularly ones to do with inadequate sanitation, for example.
- [40:10]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And imagine how much more difficult all of this is in the 12th century. It's just, it boggles my mind that anyone did anything other than die of dysentery really sometimes in the Middle Ages, it's.
- [40:22]
Matt Lewis
Well, yeah, it is a problem. It's always a problem for German campaigns in Italy and indeed for anyone in the Middle east where they're not used to the heat. You can pick up exotic diseases. But I think most of the time the problem is inadequate sanitation, possibly poisoned water supplies, food that's gone off. So gastric problems.
- [40:46]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, it's a rather ignominious end.
- [40:48]
Matt Lewis
Yes, it's, it's the unromantic bit of the Middle Ages.
- [40:51]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It is rather, you know, and, and we lose all sorts to this. You know, there any number of princes and kings, you know, this is the thing that takes them down is poor sanitation on a military crusade. But regardless, you know, we have this kind of. Oh, it's a bit of a deflation, isn't it? Barbarossa's end. But that's not what we tend to talk about. Well, you know, when that's not why he is this big romantic name that people come back to over and over again. But huge question here. Do you think that his policies, you know, his, his desire to, to go on Crusade, his desire to really control more directly the northern Italian city states, are these long term issues for the Holy Roman Empire once he's no longer in the picture? Or would this have happened anyway?
- [41:45]
Matt Lewis
Not so much the Crusade, because in a sense the Crusade is seen as an entirely admirable enterprise. It's unfortunate the Emperor died in the circumstances that he did, but in some respects, dying on a holy enterprise was no bad end. And he had taken very careful steps to ensure his son's succession after his death. His son's already crowned king of Germany. His son has married in Milan. He schmoozed the Milanese. Whatever problems have been with the papacy been solved by a Crusade. The popes want the Crusade to succeed so that in the short term, the Crusade isn't a problem. In the long term, I think Barbarossa's reign was catastrophic for the effective power of the Roman Emperor, both in Italy, but also in Germany, because the German rulers never really developed an administrative infrastructure. They were in control of those areas where they had a lot of land themselves, a lot of regalian rights which they exercised, control of towns and so on, which in Barbaross's case meant largely Swabia and Franconia. But other German princes were developing their own local authority in the same way that the Stauffe were. Stauffe were doing it on a bigger scale than anybody else and in more areas. But the Welfs, the Babenberger, Zieringen, the other German princely families were doing the same thing. And to some extent Barbarossa was encourages this, providing they don't cause trouble, providing they contribute contingents to his Italian campaigns. He's quite happy to rub a stamp what's going on in the localities. But what this ultimately meant was that imperial authority within Germany rested on three things. The Emperor's own lands and the fact that he was so wealthy control of the German church, which is why relations with the papacy is a really big issue, and the prestige of the imperial office. But arguably Barbarossa's reign was the tipping point where princely authority develops with the emperor most of the time just benevolently rubber stamping this and often making concessions to individual princes, saying to Henry of the Lance, yes, you can control the appointment to the Saxon bishoprics.
- [44:24]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I think that this is such an important point because there is an actual mythology surrounding Barbaross. You know, he's one of these figures, much like King Arthur here in England or in the Czech lands, we have Saint Venturesas doing the same thing. He's asleep in a mountain, isn't he? You know, this mythology that here is going to be some kind of great national savior. You know, he crops up in the Brothers Grimm play about him. You know, he's this sort of saintly individual that is going to have some kind of appeasing role for Germans and Germanists. How do you get to that?
- [45:01]
Matt Lewis
You have a great dose of 19th century romanticism in. Yes, the Brothers Grimm poetry of Friedrich Ruckert. For example, here's a poem called Alta Barbarossa, Old Barbarossa, which apparently when them up, Father Landis in danger, Barbarossa will awake from his sleep and come and rescue it. I mean, everybody recognizes this as a legend, but somehow or another it's sort of legend which sticks. And this whole idea that he was sleeping under the Kefoisa mountain.
- [45:30]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's always a mountain.
- [45:31]
Matt Lewis
When I went down into the Barbarossahola, he seemed to have popped out for a while because he wasn't there.
- [45:37]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, I'm still Waiting, you know, I can't wait to meet them all someday. The dark as are.
- [45:44]
Matt Lewis
It's far more to do with 19th century German romantic nationalism. He's seen as the great heroic figure, the medieval empire, who always fought his corner, fought for the empire, the great patriot. Now, whether Barbarossa would have seen himself as a patriot I very much doubt. But it's seen through terms of late 19th century Germany in the age of Bismarck. It's essentially anachronistic, but it does tell you quite a lot about intellectual life in the age of Bismarck.
- [46:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Absolutely. I mean, we see this across Europe, don't we? You know, the 19th century is that time for this romanticization, this attempting to find some ideal ruler that is going to typify your theoretical nation. I mean it's. The Germans aren't alone in this one. The Italians do it, the Czechs do it, the French are doing it. Everyone, everyone is rather on that at.
- [46:41]
Matt Lewis
The time, the 19th century in particular had some wonderfully anachronistic views of the Middle Ages. I think it's none other than Bishop Stubbs who described over the first a buccaneering old Gladstone.
- [46:54]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I love that. Oh.
- [46:57]
Matt Lewis
Which I can't think of a worse misjudgment. But then Edward I, to my view was an extremely nasty piece of work.
- [47:05]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I couldn't agree more. I suppose just to attempt to wrap up a fairly huge subject, how would you think we should understand Barbarossa's legacy? You know, we have these romanticized ideas, we have his misuse and abuse by the actual Nazis at one point in time. But how are we as medievalists to encounter this legacy, do you think?
- [47:31]
Matt Lewis
Well, I do think Barbaross's reign was a very, very important one. But I think it was important less because of his short term gains, but more, by the way, that in the long run it sowed the seeds for the state of Europe in the late Middle Ages and indeed up to the 19th century, the fragmentation of power in both Italy and Germany. It said by the time of the Reformation, Germany has about 300 different political authorities. Well, Barbaross's reign didn't create that by itself, but it certainly gave a pretty hefty step along the way to creating that state of confusion. Although the German practice of partable inheritance didn't help either. So I see it as a very, very important stage in a sense, setting the political scene for late medieval and early modern Europe.
- [48:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I couldn't agree more. I'm afraid I'm a bit of a Barbarossa apologist, just because I'd like the Holy Roman Empire, so I think that you should be meddling in Italy. Personally, I'm incorrigible in that respect, but Graham, this has been an absolute delight. It's given me rather a lot to think about, although I don't think I'm going to stop defending this at any time soon. But thank you ever so much for coming on to speak to us today about it.
- [49:00]
Matt Lewis
My pleasure.
- [49:04]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Thanks to Graham Loud and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. If you want to know more about the Holy Roman Empire and Imperial intrigue, and frankly, who could blame you? There's lots in our back cast catalog, including my deep dive explaining the Holy Roman Empire or my conversation about the investiture controversy. Do go back and find them. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film Medieval Apocalypse and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.
- [50:07]
Matt Lewis
Foreign.
- [50:16]
Holly Fry
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