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- [00:01]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega, and we're just popping up here to tell you some insider info. If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit with the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, such as my new series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans, or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain. There's a new release to enjoy every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show notes for this episode.
- [00:49]
Matt Lewis
Got a new puppy or kitten? Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in. It helps you cover vet costs so that you can focus on what's best for you and your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as three seconds. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.
- [01:27]
Narrator
Out here, we feel things the sore calves that lead to epic views, the cool waterfall mist during a hot hike, and the breeze that hits just right at the summit. But hey, don't just listen to us. Experience it for yourself. Alltrails makes it easy to discover the best of the outdoors, with more than 450,000 trails around the world, points of interest along the trail, and offline maps for always on navigation. Download the free app today and find your next outdoor adventure.
- [01:55]
Imogen Corrigan
Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity@Greenlight.com podcast.
- [02:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennica, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and the Latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. Today, I've finally been let out once again on day of release from the gone medieval dungeon, by order of the Lord of History hit towers. Thanks, Dan Snow. And I've been sent here to the quiet leafy churchyard of St. Mary's Minster in Thanet on the northern edge of the original wantsome channel. And it's known as the Cathedral of the Marshes because of the size of the church. And it is quite unusually large, I have to say. It has beautiful and very typically Norman features. It's quite squat to the ground and has a wonderful Norman square tower. Now, it looks as though the Victorians have come along and given us a little bit of a spire on top of that, which I can't blame them for. But you can see little windows punched all the way along. Some are very clearly later incursions. They're rectangular and so that's always a hint. But you can just see the gorgeous Kentish flint work. And as I come around right up to the actual doors of the church, there's this beautiful Norman arch and it's got the typical Norman, what we call tooth work. So it looks like jagged edges over it leading to two huge wooden barred doors. Can't wait to get inside and have a look. But the ground upon which I am standing has long been hallowed as a place of worship. A small monastic parish church made of mud and wood was founded here in 670 common era, before the peasant church was started by the Saxons and it was then enlarged and absorbed by these Normans who were ready to build in stone. But the reason I'm here is that I have been sent on a mission to take a closer look at St. Mary's set of 18 superbly preserved misericords or choir stalls. And there's one little carved guy with a face that is made of leaves. No explanation, no plaque, it's just there watching and probably judging. This leafy fellow has come to be known as the Green Man. And that name means it makes him sound like an eco friendly marvel villain. But don't be fooled. He's older, weirder and probably more judgmental. My mission has been given to me by gone medieval listener Jill Roselle from the United States, who sent me this message.
- [05:53]
Jill Roselle
Hi, Dr. Iannaga, my name is Jill Roselle and I'm an avid gone medieval listener. Living in Saratoga Springs, New York, I really enjoy all the topics that you discuss. A few months back, I attended a winter solstice theme party and took along some Green man cookies that my family made. Not knowing a lot about the Green Man, I found myself referencing the Green Knight movie when people asked about the cookies. But I'm realizing that the Green Man's origins are quite different, and I'd love to know more about them. Thanks so much.
- [06:22]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, Jill, it is not every day that I get to delve into the origins of the inspiration for cookies. So today I am under instruction to investigate the myths, realities and wild misunderstandings surrounding this mysterious medieval figure who pops up in literally hundreds of churches around Europe and the uk. Is he a pagan fertility God in disguise, A Christian symbol of rebirth, or just a very elaborate way for craftsmen to say, hey, look what I can do with my chisel? And just over here is my guide, Imogen Corrigan, the author of the Green Myth and Reality, who's traveled through over a thousand churches and somehow managed to not go completely mad. Together we're going to trace the roots. See what I did there? Of this leafy legend from Roman Goths and Celtic spirals to miserichords and perhaps drunken mermen. So grab your metaphorical gardening gloves and prepare for a journey through church architecture, folklore and facial foliage. Because today on Gone Medieval, we're asking the age old why is that man's face vomiting leaves? Imogen, thank you so much for meeting me here.
- [07:37]
Imogen Corrigan
It's a pleasure.
- [07:39]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
What a real beauty of a church. I mean, it's absolutely enormous for something that I would expect to see from the Normans.
- [07:47]
Imogen Corrigan
It is absolutely huge, isn't it? But it's. Some of that is to do with its status, of course, because this is minster insanity. It's an abbey and it was built pretty much to house not just the local community, but the local religious community as well. So that all adds to size. And we got a very large chancel at the end because of the number of monks and clergy up there.
- [08:11]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's absolutely stunning. You come in and you see these perfect Norman Romanesque arches going along in a line. A beautiful old wooden roof as well, with gorgeous beams. It's just a really beautiful monument. And I also think a testament to how important this area of the world was religiously in the medieval period.
- [08:33]
Imogen Corrigan
Almost certainly. I mean, it goes way back because here, Thanet area, this is where St. Augustine, well, he wasn't a saint when he arrived, but St. Augustine sent by Gregory the Great in the year 597. This is rough, the area not precisely here where he arrived and he arrived with his entourage and he was sent by the Pope, Gregory the Great, to impose the Roman way of practicing Christianity on us. Some people say, well, he was sent to convert. Well, yes, because there were still pagan practices happening, but in fact to impose the Roman way of practicing Christianity. And that is really important in the development of our history here. And in fact, I always say to people, the Pope, Gregory the Great in this instance, but he wasn't alone in this, they were concerned. It sounds a bit strange to us perhaps that if you weren't practicing Christianity in the right way, you can't get into heaven. So you could be as Christian as you like, but if you're not doing it right, which means his way, let's face it, then, that's it. So he sent people like Augustine to save our souls. That's what it was about.
- [09:49]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So you have these multiple axises in the medieval period of pilgrimage and importance because you have everything that's associated with St. Augustine and you have everything eventually that is associated with Canterbury as well. So I imagine that especially after Henry II has his ways with the Archbishop, you know, this would be the sort of place where people might very well be passing through if they're coming up from the continent, I mean.
- [10:15]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, yes, yes, completely. You wanted to clock up as many shrines as you could, you know, as they say, every little helps. But places like this, substantial places and awe inspiring and beautiful places, it would all have been brightly painted and all that sort of thing, you know. Yeah. And they would probably. The most likely entry route would in fact be Dover. That was the main port for passengers, I suppose. It still is really. And otherwise they would come through Sandwich, but that was much more freight and so on, but not exclusively. So yeah, if you're heading up to Canterbury, you're very likely to come via some of these enormous churches and you're not just passing through. I mean, I'm guilty, I have to say, of saying, oh look, let's go in. Oh, lovely, here we are. And maybe a couple of hours at the most, but they would be up here for several days, really getting into the atmosphere, lighting candles, praying, just making the whole place redolent with prayer in the end. And you can, some churches, you can feel it to this day.
- [11:21]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Absolutely. I mean, this one has just an absolutely gorgeous air of sanctity still, you know, upon it. And I think as you look through on a beautiful day like today, with the sun streaming in through the windows, you are really drawn up to, to the altar.
- [11:37]
Imogen Corrigan
Without doubt, this building is designed so that everything you see is focused there. But don't let's forget there would have been a rood screen. So if you and I were standing here, two things. Firstly, we're not going to go up there. We're not going to get, as I would say, across the chancel step. So that's where the rood screen would have been. And that's where, as Philip Larkin always said, you enter the holy end of the church. And that was for the priests, for the monks and for those helping with the working of the Mass.
- [12:07]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, what we are really lucky to have in this particular church and what we've really come here to see today is there's some beautiful original misericords up near the altar. Should we go have a look?
- [12:19]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, let's do that. They are lovely and in very good condition.
- [12:24]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So up on either side of the altar in the transept we have some beautiful misericordia. Can you explain what those are, Imogen?
- [12:32]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah. So the stalls, as we would say, so choir stalls, if you think choir stalls in stalls. And we find them up in the chancel. So we've crossed out of the nave out of the people's end and we, you know, there is a distinct step here. And here we are in the chancel and we see these lovely carvings. So the idea was people had to stand, monks and priests had to stand for very long services and at times their knees were giving out. Okay. So these are theater style tip up seats and some of them have the original hinge. So, you know, you have to use two hands and be a bit careful with them. But if it's in the down position as a seat on the underside, we've got these extraordinary images and they were trying just to find a way so that they could balance and take the weight off and not very comfortable, to be honest. Some of them are weighted deliberately so that they won't stay up. So if you lift them up and think, oh, I'll do a photograph, bang, down they go. So the idea there was that if the monk or the priest fell asleep. Yeah, right, you got it. Yeah. So they end up being sort of thrown forwards and highly embarrassed and all of that. But they started with having little separate stool that they could just put in there and sit down, but that's a bit noisy and not, you know, they want something a bit more streamlined than that. So they tried all sorts of things and somebody came up with this idea of a hinged seat which absolutely caught on and then the designs changed because the early ones, this corbel where the seatbelt. The really early ones. So I say really early. I'm talking about maybe 12th century. So they would be very smooth and shallow. This is much more designer than comfortable, must be said. And they start having these very lovely curved edges and that sort of thing. Quite lacy. Sometimes you get things on the carvings that might just be a family shield. We've no idea. There's no record that tells us who ordered what. But somebody has, because somebody's paid. And sometimes you get. At Ludlow, there's a whole series of model ones. A moral theme, you know, sort of, you're bad in this life, it won't do you any good long term. In the end, we're mortal. That sort of idea. And other ones, there's a wonderful archive of medieval daily life. I mean, there's 20, I think I've seen in England of domestic violence. That's not great. But look again, it's always the woman who's winning. Ah, it's quite hilarious, actually, in a way. And there's a poor old man sometimes being lifted up by his hair while the woman whacks him with the butter paddle. And dear, oh, dear, you think, what? Some of them can be quite profane, but I won't go into that one. You know, there's all sorts of things. And possibly Beverly, I think there's the cart before the horse. I mean, we.
- [15:30]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
You know, that's how amazing.
- [15:33]
Imogen Corrigan
I hope I've got the right place for that. But I think it's, Beverly, that there's things, legends, local tales, people fighting, children playing, as in Gloucester Cathedral. They're playing a sort of football game, you know, that sort of thing. It's just. Just wonderful.
- [15:49]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
You know, this is something that I love about medieval people. They'll come up with something that is so deeply practical, but they never leave it at that. They always like to just put a little bit of embellishment on everything.
- [15:59]
Imogen Corrigan
There's some Harpies across the way here. Oh, gosh, now I've got to see them. And the Harpies are these women who were so beautiful and they were there just to dupe these poor innocent men, lead them astray. It's cruel, absolutely cruel, isn't it? But there we are. That's. But what intrigues me is that they are here in the holy bit and you and I are not going to see them. So that, again, there's always more questions than answers in this world. That's why I love it. I think.
- [16:30]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I'M really a big fan of the tile work on the floor here. I would imagine it's Victorians playing at being medieval, but I still can't fault them for that. I agree with the Victorians. I think that you should try to make things look medieval.
- [16:43]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah. And the Victorian Victorians did so much work on the churches. People like George Gilbert Scott and Putin, you know, all sorts of people are working on these churches, restoring them, when otherwise goodness knows what would have happened. And people have said to me, because I take people around churches, you know, and they say, oh, but you know what the Victorians did and, oh, what a shame. And I said, well, yeah, hang on. Because occasionally the Victorians slightly did cause damage, but let's not be too judgmental on our own conservation efforts for another hundred years, you know.
- [17:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Absolutely. Yeah, well, so here we are and there are absolutely gorgeous, these beautiful misericords. And, you know, the wood is so old as to be silky to the touch when you put your hands down. And I'm noticing on the misericords at the back we have, you know, classic what I would expect to see a kind of teeny little stool that you can sort of lean against. And most of them have a main figure in the middle flanked by two others.
- [17:47]
Imogen Corrigan
Yes, that's. That's right. And this is peculiarly English Misericords. Miservichords. Both pronunciations are absolutely correct. I say misericord because I'm pretentious.
- [17:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I can't help but a woman after my own heart.
- [17:59]
Imogen Corrigan
But here we have. So we've got the main. The court, the central image under the seat, as it were, the corbel. And then we've got the supporting images on each side, known as the supporters, and they very often have nothing whatsoever to do with that central image. But it's only in England that you get the supporting image. If you were in the church in France, for example, you would have a really deeply cut, bulky central image and maybe spreading much further over, you know, to each side, so not much room for a supporting image and it would be blank. So it's. It's completely different. And occasionally I can think of six churches in England that have got that and I would suggest that they were journeymen from France, something like that, because, after all, most of them on the south coast. So that's a bit of a clue. But, you know, I always say, if you go out on the razzle dazzle, which I hope you do, and wake up on the floor of a church and you have no idea which country you're in. Just have a look at the Misericords and you'll start by saying, well, I'm not in England. Perhaps I am.
- [19:06]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Now, in particular, we have come to look at this one, which is the third along from the altar, and it stars in the middle underneath the seat. What you and I, I think, would describe as the Green Man.
- [19:20]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah.
- [19:20]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And now I want to pick your brain about this because I think, you know, the common understanding of green men, the thing that people always say, it's a rather like shula Nagig, people will say, oh, well, certainly this is pagan in character. And I'm not sure I agree with that. And I'm wondering what you tend to think about it.
- [19:38]
Imogen Corrigan
Well, let's start with pagan in origin, because funnily enough, an awful lot of images, including the what I will now start ranting and say, misnamed, misunderstood, misinterpreted green man, they start off being pagan. So let's go back to Gregory the Great again, the Pope, and he said to people who were evangelizing, if you come across pagans, just watch what they do. Don't trash what they're doing, don't scorn it, if that's the right word, but just look to see, is there a way that I can use that practice, that image to tell the Christian story and to bring them into church? So we've got dragons and we've got labyrinths and we've got all sorts. Sheila Nagigs, you've mentioned pagan in origin, but they're there being interpreted in a different way to tell the Christian story. So, yeah, pagan in origin, but not this one, because he is there. He is in a church. The other thing I have to say early to explain my ranting, is that they were never called green men till 1939.
- [20:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Ah.
- [20:45]
Imogen Corrigan
And that is what has skewed the interpretation. It's just about the most important thing that's happened, actually, in their history, because 1939, Lady Raglan was standing in a church in Wales with the rector, and she said, and so I named them green men. Okay. Why it took on so popular, I have no idea. But it did. And the problem then was that, of course, we've got some really good green men in folklore history. I mean, you get people, folklore being acted out at Clon in Shropshire, and a man dressed in green, he has a fight with winter, you know, and of course, he represents spring. There's nothing to do with these. And the jack in the green, that's sort of a May Day junketing, but nothing to do with these. These have been in our churches carved in wood stone for centuries, sometimes in stained glass, that sort of thing. And when Lady Ragland called them Green Men In 1939, everything changed. But only in Britain. It didn't happen in France. I've been in French churches and said, could I see the om there? And they just say, what? And when I say, well, it's that. Oh, they say the tetrapher. Okay, the leafy head. Why are you interested? Exactly. It doesn't grab their imagination as much as we have it here talking about the Green man, which I find absolutely intriguing.
- [22:27]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
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- [23:11]
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- [23:52]
Narrator
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- [24:19]
Imogen Corrigan
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- [25:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So it's almost as though we have retrofitted this particular piece of religious imagery to coalesce around the folkloric traditions that we have specifically here in England.
- [25:20]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we've given it a backstory, which it really never, never had and shouldn't have had, but there we are. I'll calm down now, please.
- [25:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Never calm down. So what made you want to start looking into the origins of green men?
- [25:36]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, well, to be honest, when I was at university about. Golly. Well, a long time ago, I was very interested in carvings to do with monsters in churches and why they are where they are. I mean, what's it doing here in the holy part of the church, for example? And I thought I'd write this wonderful dissertation on it. And my tutor sort of looked slightly pale and said, well, just bring it down to one monster, as it were. And because you might say they're not necessarily monsters. But the reason I picked on the green man was because I wanted to rescue it from this hippie interpretation. This has come the 60s, everybody said, oh, green man, right? Green, that's fertility. Men are shocking characters. There you are, Pagan, fertility rights, job done. And that just isn't, really isn't. So how can I. How can I work it out? And I just started by looking at thousands. I have a database and as a coincidence, very few friends, actually, I have noticed that. But. And I just found them completely fascinating because they're so varied. You know, they're not all men where color remains, which on a Missouri cord, there isn't going to be color. But where it does remain, it's never green. It's gold or maybe red, which are autumnal colors actually, aren't they? So forget the green. The man bit. Well, a third of these images on my database, and I've been right across the country looking a third are human, sometimes impossible to say male or female, but. So let's say human. A third are abstract, perhaps monsters. So if I say abstract monsters, and then another third are identifiable animals and identifiable monsters. So when we say green man, well, we should say foliate heads, but it doesn't run off the tongues of the world. Does it? But when we say that, we're actually limiting this art form and not necessarily understanding what's happening.
- [27:43]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So this one in particular looks as though we've got a face, and it is surrounded by leaves that almost look as though someone is wearing a hood or a veil or something like that. And two of them seem to just be hooking into the corners of its mouth. So this we should understand as a religious image. What are we meant to take from this here?
- [28:07]
Imogen Corrigan
Right, you get two sorts. This is what they call a disgorger. Lovely, because the foliage, it's usually a disembodied head foliage coming out of the mouth, nose, eyes, ears, or combination. And then you get the transformers. So they're the ones where the face transforms into foliage. So I started by thinking, does it matter where they are in the church? And the answer is no. I just couldn't find anything on that. I can tell you that two thirds are inside the church, obviously, third outside. I couldn't decide if it mattered if they were the top of corbels. It just didn't seem to have any bearing on that. So then what else can we do? Can we analyze the foliage type, which I did obsessively. And actually the truth is that 75% the foliage is stylized. So that obviously the foliage type doesn't matter. It might be stylized vine, stylized acanthus, something like that. And we can interpret that. The vine's obvious. Acanthus is a symbol of eternal life. I'm told if you get it in the garden, you can't get rid of it, but, you know, but they might be maple, buttercup, cinque, foil, you name it hawthorn, they're always lobed leaves. So they're arty leaves, you could say. But okay, so, you know, you could make something of that, I suppose. Doesn't really take as much further. Mostly, this is the most popular type, the foliage coming out of the mouth. That by far. But, you know, you get it coming out of the nose and so on. So I started analyzing it like that, and. And then I started thinking, hang on a minute, I'm missing the point here. What surrounds them? And if there's something around them, which we can analyze and it's obviously connected, what can we make of that? So, for example, on fonts, well, your baptism is one of the seven sacraments. What are the other images? If you get one of these, which is not unknown on a font, other images made at the same time, how can we interpret them? And it went on and on and on with Tombs, even an Easter sepulchre, all sorts of things. And the answer came back again and again and again, the supporting images where they have a meaning, because very often on a mosaic horde, it's just foliage. But if they can be interpreted, they are all to do with resurrection, to do with the next life, to do with eternity and to do with Christ, and occasionally to do with Mary. And I thought, that's it. It's not pagan fertility rites. It's to do with eternal life. And this is as holy as you can get, almost. And then I noticed something else, because it's very difficult to take them exactly. But they go sort of in and out of fashion. But in the middle of the 14th century, there is a proliferation of them. You would not believe, like sort of bomb burst of these things in roof bosses, I mean, everywhere. So what happens in the middle of the 14th century?
- [31:24]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Black Death.
- [31:25]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, Black Death, absolutely. So what about that? Are there any other key points where you get a proliferation of them? Yes and no. Nothing like the Black Death, but occasional. A burst of famine. Oh, hang on a minute. What are we getting? And I thought, right, so it's something to do with something bad happening on a large scale. Maybe. I'm just saying maybe. I've just put it in my books. I hope it's right. So why. And I think it could be. I know this sounds far fetched and I'm willing to. For you to say that's ridiculous because I think you'll be kind about it, but I think it's the church in a way, and the priest saying, okay, old chum, this time next week we could all be dead. Out of you will come life in the sense of this foliage and the life of your eternal life, the life of your children. We're very much an agricultural community, so foliage makes sense, you know, and that, that sort of idea. So I think it's much more important than being dismissed as, you know, pagan fertility rights. I think there's something really profound and inspirational happening. And I should say, to back up that theory, I have seen thousands. I'm not kidding. And I've never seen one where the foliage isn't living. Not one. And sometimes there's little buds, you know, new growth as well.
- [32:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, I think that, you know, I have to agree with you because I think one of the things that I find incredibly frustrating, you know, this beautiful example that we're looking at right now, what, what do we think this is probably 15th century, something like early 15th century. It's a rather long bow to Draw back to the pre Christian past at that point in time. So, you know, you're, you're a go. What I'm expected to understand then is that for a thousand years this particular thing has been coming through and we need to understand it in a pre Christian way. To me, that is simply too long. And I think also there is this tendency where anytime something doesn't accord to our modern understandings of religion, we'll just say, oh, well, that's pagan. And you know, so for example, with Sheila Nagigs, people say, oh, well, this is hugely sexual, so it can't possibly be Christian. Well, the medieval people just think differently than we do.
- [33:56]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh yes.
- [33:57]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's a different society. They have different symbology. And that doesn't mean that something is pagan, it just means that they live in a different culture than we do.
- [34:06]
Imogen Corrigan
I completely agree with you. And you know, there's sort of pagan ideas being brought forward. And of course we don't know this head with foliage coming out. The root is not known. There's very strong chance it could be Scandinavian. If you look at Viking art, you know, they went for fairly beautiful tendrils and things like that. That's a possibility. It's too late for these, but around the 1300s, Jacobus Dvorogine wrote the Golden Legend. And one of them, he has Seth go to the gate of the Garden of Eden, ask for a seed from the tree from the angels who actually tell him to go away. They would. They would. But third time of asking, he's given a seed not from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but a different one. He puts it in his Father's mouth. The tree grows and that tree is later cut down to make the cross on which Christ is crucified. That's far too neat and trite. So that's again imposing a backstory. But you can see how it feels fed in and added to the myth of it all. You could. I know it will sound slightly far fetched, but you could say that this image of head with foliage or something coming out of the mouth could even come to us from India. And if you think really. Well, if you look at Sutton, who that ship buried in the earth 615 or thereabouts, thousands of garnets. British Museum have analyzed all of them. Every single one came from India. So that's trade routes being kept going. So an image has been seen, not necessarily a head with leaves. That may be. And whatever that means in India then doesn't in a way matter. With the greatest respect to them, the image has been brought here and given another meaning. And I spent some time in the British Museum looking at Jane images, and. And a lot of them are quite clunky, quite solid, and with bulbous eyes. And I thought, hang on a minute. I think I've seen that on the south door of Southwell Minster, and I think I've seen that in Sandwich Church. And I think, you know, things like that. So ideas traveling, but who knows when? Who knows why, you know.
- [36:25]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So do we think that this becomes a particularized English art form or. But no, you. You say that you've seen them as well in France. How is it, do you think that this. This idea, this particular motif is traveling around Europe?
- [36:41]
Imogen Corrigan
Wow. Good question. I've seen them all over, what I'll call the Catholic West. So anywhere where Catholicism is practiced, so largely Europe, you could say I have seen them. So the idea is traveling well. The building trades are the most itinerant. So ideas are traveling with carvers who bring new ideas, or somebody's heard of this image. Can you do one? I don't know that sort of thing. Templates, none of which really seem to survive. It's really difficult to answer that question, but it happened because we see it. And I can also say that they are in 5%, roughly speaking, of English churches, But in every cathedral that was a cathedral before the Reformation, there's at least one. And that applies from Gdansk down to Avignon Red Cost to Montenegro. Yeah, I hunt them out. I can assure you, I'm quite obsessive.
- [37:38]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I love that.
- [37:39]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah. There's something to do with status as well, and that I haven't pinned down. I think I've pinned down the link to catastrophe. But why one in every cathedral that was a cathedral before the Reformation? Don't know.
- [37:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, it's good to have some mysteries or we don't have anything to work on. Would have been. So one thing that I'm also noticing, too, from your descriptions of these, at the ends of Misericords, we have these little bosses that come up and they seem to be draped in leaves as well. And now that you say it, these look a bit like stylized a can.
- [38:15]
Imogen Corrigan
The sleeves.
- [38:16]
Yeah.
- [38:16]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That we get at the end of the Misericords. And so it does seem as though we were building some form of motif then. No.
- [38:23]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah. This is a poppy head from the French. It's a corruption of poupe for, I suppose, a puppet or doll, something like that. And these ones all happen to be stylized foliage. They're rather Lovely, actually. They're gorgeous. But very often you might get a little image of saint or all sorts, or even local myths, and sometimes you get sort of faces looking one way and the other way, and it goes on to the Victorian period. I mean, round here in Kent, at Deal, St Andrews, there's Victorian poppy heads and. And there's, I think, two or three, where there's a little face within it with, guess what? Foliage coming out. It's just so, so cute. But it doesn't stand out because, you know, you think, oh, now where is it? Where is it? And you're looking around, there it is. I've been leaning on it.
- [39:11]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, they're just stunning. And I mean, you can really actually see through them. The carving is so fine. You have these little kind of lace bits that come through the various foliage. It just. It's really testament to how skilled these particular carvers were.
- [39:25]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah. And these ones, I think these are the same time as these carvings. I would go early 15th century, but because inevitably people lean on them and they haul on them quite often in churches, they might look suspiciously new, you know, because they've had to do something because they get so worn away and eroded. But nobody would be pleased to hear me to say, oh, that's great. But it is because the usage of the church is so important and visitors, even if they're not here to pray, but just, you know, having a look at it.
- [39:58]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I like it when my churches are still in use, frankly. But. Well, now, one more thing I want to ask about them is. So, you know, we've got a disgorger here, so we have some leaves coming out of his mouth. Do we think that the leaves coming out of the mouth are specifically symbolic of something like, for example, preaching or spreading the word of God?
- [40:15]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, golly. Now, that's another argument. That's a very strong argument. I am not sure about that, but I can't dismiss it from my mind. The reason I say I'm not sure about it is because when these were made, it was only the job of the priests to spread the word of God. Word, capital W and so on. And the word was as much of a relic of Christ, you know, as a fingernail of a saint, something like that. So exegesis, explanation of the Gospels, it's only for the priests to do it, and they're the ones with the trained mind, and by which they meant, had studied theology specifically, and they were really concerned that if other people started doing that, it would all get, I don't know, misinterpreted diluted. And believe it or not, it sounds crazy. It was a heresy. Extraordinary. So I think I am very attracted by that idea because it makes sense, doesn't it? But then how does it explain coming out of the nose, for example, or the eyes, which is slightly unpleasant, or the ears, you know, that sort of thing. It doesn't work for. For those images, but. But when I look at them, I sometimes think, yeah, it's the word of God. Isn't you. That makes sense.
- [41:32]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And now some of them as well, I'm given to understand, have really interesting teeth in their mouths.
- [41:37]
Imogen Corrigan
They have. Medieval monsters have very good teeth that cannot necessarily have reflected life. But does this chap here have. Can we see his teeth? I think he's got his mouth clean.
- [41:49]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
He does, yes.
- [41:50]
Imogen Corrigan
But they frequently have not just teeth, but sort of slabbed teeth. And they're not aggressive teeth, they're not pointed, they're not that sort of scary monster teeth, but they are a big row of almost grinning teeth. Perfect. So I think that's wishful thinking.
- [42:12]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, I suppose that we have that in common with our medieval friends. You know, a modern audience simply longs for perfect teeth, don't we? So here we are with a green man in the church. You've mentioned that you find about a third of them outside of churches. What's the oddest place you've ever found a green man?
- [42:27]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, wow. Oddest place. What a great question. I can't think of a really odd place. I found them just everywhere. You even find them on tombs occasionally, that sort of thing, I guess.
- [42:39]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, see, that really goes along with your idea of this is a symbol of eternal life. Right. Because that's what we do tend to find on tombs is very specifically these references to, you know, the resurrection, to eternal life and that sort of thing. So.
- [42:53]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, well, I think that would be it, because you find them on great graves. I don't mean that. Effigies, you know, and sometimes you find them. There's one in Leicestershire, and it's a rector, and at the. At his feet, it's this great big, rather clunky folio head. There's one in Poitier of a saint, and she's got these on her feet at the base, is what I'm trying to say. So at the base she's got very stylized heads, rather beautiful, very smooth skin with very stylized acanthus. And you can see, do you know, a sort of notch where a plant has a burst of life? You can see that happening on it. And you can see other things because they're coming out of an urn. So, you know, because you can analyze things into the ground. That is what I do, by the way. So they might not have a meaning at all, but let's not say that out loud, but, you know, an urn which perhaps might represent somewhere where ashes went. I mean, one can go on and on, but on the head of her tomb, she's got dolphins. And dolphins are psychopomps. They're there to go with you to the next life. Now, there's a lovely classical pagan crossing of ideas into Christianity. It's on a saint's tomb dating to the 4th century. And there she is. And, you know, so some people have said, oh, well, yeah, but that's. She died. They. They did that. But some of them designed their own tombs. Bishop Hamer in Rochester, he probably designed his own tomb. He's got some nice ones. And nobody at that time is going to do anything that is going to anger God. Sometimes you might hear people say, well, you know, medieval man, he's a pagan. He's thinking about the old ways because this awful disease, you know, the church has let them down. So he's going back to the old ways, but he's Christian at Mass. And I would say, no, I think he's not going to do anything that's going to upset God. So if he's designed his own tomb and you have these on there, wow. There's got to be a very positive interpretation. And I found one on an Easter sepulcher, which is the tomb for Christ.
- [44:59]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Wow.
- [44:59]
Imogen Corrigan
So you're not again, to.
- [45:00]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, I'm sorry. I have a really hard time believing that anyone is saying I'm being pre Christian.
- [45:04]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, exactly.
- [45:05]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Now, I'm given to understand that not very far from here, we have another example of agreement, and this is at St. Nicholas at Wade. So shall we make our way there?
- [45:16]
Imogen Corrigan
Let's do that. They're different. They're lovely. Fantastic.
- [45:19]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Two.
- [45:20]
Imogen Corrigan
Okay. Exciting. Fuck.
- [46:05]
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- [46:42]
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- [47:34]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So we have arrived at St Nicholas at Wade, and this is just such a picturesque Kentish village. It looks like the kind of place that only appears out of the mist once every thousand years or so.
- [47:44]
Imogen Corrigan
Here.
- [47:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
The church's southwest tower was constructed in two phases. First, we have a bit from around 1310. The lower section is kind of like the highest quality flint, exactly what you would expect in Kent. But the upper sections, which rise up to 74ft, were added in rubble construction. It's possible that this was used as a navigation market and that's appropriate for St. Nicholas, who is the patron of seafarers. The present building probably dates from the early 12th century. Mid 12th century Romanesque features survive in the Bridges Chapel in the west end of the nave. The most important 12th century work to survive in the south aisle arcade probably dates to the early 1160s or early 1170s. These arches and their capitals include carved work of the absolute highest quality. And they're stylistically really similar to work that we see at Canterbury Cathedral, which isn't particularly far away here. Fantastically. Also we are visiting while the local parishioners are setting up for a flower festival. So there's going to be some really beautiful things to see inside. Clearly this is still really a hub of the community. Imogen, we are here because I am told that there is another green man carved at the top of one of these pillars. So shall we go and take a look?
- [49:00]
Imogen Corrigan
Let's do that.
- [49:06]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
These green men are really different. You know, the last one that we saw at St. Mary's it was as though it was wearing a hood of leaves. These ones, you can really see their complexion. This one is wearing a crown on the right, so quite kingly. Although, you know, for a king to be spewing leaves is a bit odd. What are we seeing here?
- [49:28]
Imogen Corrigan
Right, well, they, as you say, very different and a lot older for a start. So these are going to be end of 12th century, I would say. And they've got that fantastic little smooth face. It's really strange, isn't it? And very pronounced mouths with them open almost as a square with this distinct foliage coming out. But yeah, one of them has this crown. I can never decide if that's has it actually got foliage on it. Is it a crown of leaves? I think it's definitely a metal carbonate. Let's start there. But I think that's. It is a crown. And one of the things I discovered when I started looking at all these beasties was that a number of them, headgear, whether it was a kind of foliage hood, but as we've just seen, really. But sometimes an actual. Like a cowl, something like that, or sometimes a bishop mitre, something like that. And then it turned out when I started looking around at other images made at the same time, maybe not part of that, but maybe made at the same time and just very close by it, I thought, hang on a minute. There's an awful lot of these with crowns or coronets. So that has to mean something. When I say an awful lot, I'm talking about very nearly half of the accompanying images. Not the actual foliate head or green nan, but the ones very close by. So I thought, oh, okay, so what should you go in? As you're standing there thinking, every time you think, oh, I solved this, then you turn out you really haven't. And so actual green men wearing headgear. Whatever. Let's go with maybe. I'll say 5 to 10%. That's probably high, actually. But crowns around the image. So Christ is king of heaven. Okay, could do that. That's an easy one. You get a lot of kings and queens. Quite often each side of the main door. You get a statue ahead of a king and ahead of an abbot, you know, so church and state together, that maybe. But that doesn't apply here. And then I thought, well, what is the. What. What are the big influences on the way Christianity developed in this country? And one of them has to be The Rule of St. Benedict, of course. Yeah. And that was written about the F500 at Monte Cassino area. And it's, well, what I would call standing orders for how you behave in a monastery. And so rules for people living together. And there's numerous of these. You know, there's St. Augustine's there's stuff. Oh, so many of them. But what St. Benedict did was come up with what he called the eclectic rule. And that actually is highly flexible. So you don't have to be. Oh, the Irish penitential. If you think a bad thought, you've got to jump into a pond up to your neck of freezing water. You know, I mean, honestly, come on. But his is very workable. And what does St. Benedict say in the Rule of St. Benedict? Endurance shall bring Forth a crown. And that brought me right back to the idea of, okay, the crown of eternal life. That's why I would say it. Having endured this life, you get the crown of the next life. And that takes me right back to things we were talking about earlier, you know, with things to do with eternity and resurrection. So maybe it's just another eternal life reference. And I. I think I'm going with that for the time being because I can't think of anything else. But I have seen it all over the country, to be honest, just ones and twos popping up with little crowns.
- [53:14]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And it's so interesting because here he. We have one with a little crown and then one on the opposite end that doesn't have a crown at all. No, but they do have the leaves coming out of their mouths and it's got some interesting kind of little dots on the leaves.
- [53:27]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah. And in fact, if you look at the chap with the crown as well, just underneath, you can see that. You can see the top of his robe or something under his chin. He's got that. Right. So this is called granulation. So you have to think of a parallel line with dots down the middle. It's not the most imaginative design I know, but this is a Scandinavian note, definitely. So this is Vikings settling down, bringing their art, and we referred to them a little while ago. So this is what we're looking at here. I'm absolutely convinced. But I think whoever did that, I don't think they're thinking, oh, Scandinavian influence. I don't think they're doing that. I think they've seen this idea such a lot that they think, well, that would look nice. I see it often in the churches. It impacts on our church art up to about the year 1200. So this is at the later end of it, but. And sometimes it's very fine, teeny weeny dots. And sometimes it's what I call normal, like here. But on this stylized foliage curling round. Definitely living foliage. The chap with the crown is quite vigorous. His foliage. The other chap, I was going to say, looks a bit down in the mouth, but down in the foliage or something. But he hasn't got a crown. Maybe he's upset, I don't know.
- [54:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
He's still working towards that ground in the middle. There are these. There are more leaves sort of in between them and they. Look at the top does something maybe like a fleur de lis, maybe like a sort of like the. The puppet heads that we saw in the other church.
- [55:00]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, that's right. I Think they are stylized fleur de lis? I do. I think that. And of course, the fleur de lis, symbol of Mary, of Our lady, and that's something that becomes part of the French monarchy symbolism and so on. But the. The lee, the lily that they. Stylized lily. I think that's what it is. Yeah. And I think it's referring to her.
- [55:25]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So on these faces in particular, they're really expressive. Do you think that we're meant to take anything away specifically from the images that we see of the faces themselves?
- [55:36]
Imogen Corrigan
It. Well, I think there must be a thing. Some of them are portraits. I don't think these are portraits, but sometimes you see one. There's one at Sutton Benger near Swindon, and that is definitely a portrait, there's no question. And. And so why him? Why did they pick on him? Did he pay, you know, to get a mention? Don't know, but yeah. And so the expression, they look both very detached and also critical in a way. It's weird, isn't it? And, you know, sometimes I look at these images and I think, oh, he looks cheerful or he looks upset. But it's subjective, isn't it? You can't. You can't really come up with anything for that. And I haven't found a consistency going through all of them, which I really hoped I would, but fail. Sorry.
- [56:24]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Medieval people, they. They never do exactly what you want them to.
- [56:28]
Imogen Corrigan
I know. Soon as they invent time travel, I'm going back to sort it out.
- [56:32]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Exactly. So these here, our last green man was on a Misericord. These are underneath the pillars of an arch here. And this is as opposed to our lovely Norman arches that we saw in the last one. These are peaked and they're a little bit more Gothic in style. And where else would we expect to see green men?
- [56:53]
Imogen Corrigan
Well, the most popular time, when we get this bomb burst of them in the middle of the 14th century, the most popular place by far is roof bosses.
- [57:00]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oh.
- [57:01]
Imogen Corrigan
So up to, say, 1200ish. Then these on the top of a column. Yeah, this is really popular. They're very visible. They're quite often on each side of the chancel arch. They might be at a doorway, very visible. So I thought maybe a place for guarding. But then that changes. And they are up there in the roof boss. And the only reason I'm intrigued by these is I've heard people say, oh, well, brown, green men images in a brown roof. They are hidden, but they're not. Because when you go to a church, always take a very long Ladder with you. They won't mind, honestly. And a strong torch. And I have once had a vicar hold the ladder for me. I'm not entirely kidding here. And if you get up really close, you might find almost certainly teeny flecks of gold paint or gold leaf up there. So suddenly, they're not wooden images hidden in a wooden ceiling. And they're not secret. They are. If you imagine them being gold and you imagine the candlelight and so on, suddenly they are right there as part of the medieval liturgy and the drama of the liturgy. And that gives them a completely different aspect.
- [58:13]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I mean, in these ones here, you know, they're looking very smooth, they're looking very white. But I wouldn't expect that medieval people would have kept them in such a condition themselves, would they?
- [58:21]
Imogen Corrigan
No, I'm having made them, and they would have been painted, I would assume, but there's nothing that remains of that. But you do often get that. But no, I don't think they would do that. I think they would just get left there, get filthy with incense, that sort of thing, candles. And then, you know, over the years, somebody restores them. Very often, the Victorians actually see, and.
- [58:44]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
This is so interesting because it shows us, once again, we have these expectations about what medieval people must have been experiencing, based on what we experience. You know, we go into a church painting, things has gone completely out of fashion. We expect them to usually be whitewashed. You know, if you have a wooden carving, we expect it to be wooden. And that's not what medieval people are seeing at all.
- [59:04]
Imogen Corrigan
No, not at all. And I think they must be astounded. I sometimes imagine them sort of sitting on a low wall thinking, what are they thinking of? What are they doing? But, yeah, and it is frustrating to me when I see these images and there's so many questions. It's a bit like being at a cocktail party where somebody tells you a fantastic joke, but you can't catch the punchline. Yeah, it's like that, you know, it's. The answer's there somewhere, but can't get it.
- [59:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, speaking of being at a cocktail party, shall we retire to the pub?
- [59:39]
Imogen Corrigan
What an idea. And what else?
- [59:49]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I have an avid shandy. Abbot Shandy. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Well, cheers, Imogen. Cheers, Imogen. Unfortunately, this isn't a Green man pub. No. But I'm given to understand the Green man pubs that we tend to see around Britain aren't necessarily connected with the guys we see in churches.
- [60:14]
Imogen Corrigan
That's absolutely right, because once he was given that name, The Green Man, 1939. Things change. And very often you get a pub called the Green man, as you say, and the Green man, originally the father folklore one, was connected to brewing, funnily enough. Ah, yeah. And so he was not a man necessarily who had any foliage on. He was a green man and he was supposed to act out very drunk and. Well, you wouldn't get that in Britain, would you, David?
- [60:43]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
No, no, no. Oh, no, that's not like us at all.
- [60:45]
Imogen Corrigan
No, no. So they were connected to pubs. And so sometimes you get a Green man pub called the Green Man. And if you. If there is one, I usually ask if I can see a photo of the pub sign, pre war, if they have one, and if that is so, then it's that old fashioned Jack in the Green type green man from folklore. But then a lot of them change it, you know, and they. They change the pub sign and they put up pictures of the sort of green men we've been talking about. So it does cause a little bit of a confusion. But they were called quifflers and one of their functions was to go ahead, you know, when they used to have plays and things on the back of carts going around the city, that sort of thing. Well, somebody had to go ahead to break up the crowds. And so the Whifflers or the Green Men would go with branches and sort of hold people back or they wouldn't be coming out of their mouths, obviously. But that's. This is how that's got tied up, I think.
- [61:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I see. So again, this is this kind of post 1930s amalgamation of every man who vaguely has anything green into one character.
- [61:54]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah.
- [61:55]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, on a more personal note, Imogen, what is it that you get from chasing these green men down?
- [62:01]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, goodness. Well, just the satisfaction of trying to put another piece in the jigsaw, which so often doesn't fit anyway. It's hard to say, but anybody who has a kind of passion for. For visiting churches. I'm a big church visitor anyway, and I'm looking for all sorts of things. But if I see one of these, then I'm really going to try to get into it to see what is it looking at? Does it see me, does it, you know, all that sort of thing. And then you think, no, it's just a carving. There we are, along with all the other carvings. It means nothing. Maybe. But one of these days, you know, probably on my deathbed, it will occur to me what the answer is.
- [62:44]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I hope so, anyway. What do you think that we can learn about medieval people? From finding these green men.
- [62:51]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, I think one of the things that stands out is this really extraordinary. They would either be, it seems, you know, really high as a kite, really. You know, it's a lovely day and absolutely miserable, you know, the next. So you get this odd juxtaposition of people being really happy, but at the same time so fearful of not getting into paradise. You know, big, big anxiety at the time. Will they actually end up in hell as they show on the Last Judgment images. Is that actually going to happen? Does anyone believe that? Well, perhaps we should, you know. No, never mind. You know, let's. Let's all go out and we'll have a party. That sort of idea of it I find quite intriguing. And I think I get bits obsessed looking for these images. Well, how obsessed must they have been carving them at times?
- [63:43]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Absolutely. Well, I think one of the things that we really do see is at the very least, how workers and their ideas of art travel around. And I think that that in and of itself is special.
- [63:55]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, it is. And the idea of taking ideas and actually, just as today, you know, we would want. Oh, you know, I really. We might see someone and think, oh, I really like that coat. Oh, where did you get that? That sort of thing. It's the same. I think it's the same idea of, you know, oh, so and so has come into the village and he's been carving on whatever substantive church, you know. But what can he do for our church? That's in that very big church? And that will we be the latest fashion? Because they definitely like the latest fashion. And when they went from largely Romanesque round arches to pointy ones, that was the must have look. And they're desperate to get it. You know, they're sort of knocking things down to get you to.
- [64:40]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, I always like that about an intrusion, how you can kind of see on a new style of window got to put in. Indeed. We say we saw that back at St. Mary's you know, but smash a rectangular window in now that we figured out how to do it. That sort of thing.
- [64:52]
Imogen Corrigan
Yeah, I think that's a lot in that. And they're just showing how up to date they are. Modern ideas, outward looking, all that sort of thing. We wouldn't think it like that because. But in the Middle Ages, they danced to a different beat. Was the beat of the church. That was the thing that underlaid everything. Whereas. Course, that's changed now. Absolutely.
- [65:13]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Well, Imogen, I can't thank you enough for coming out with me. This has been such a pleasure.
- [65:17]
Imogen Corrigan
Oh, it's been fantastic to meet you and it's just been lovely to find somebody like minded.
- [65:26]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Thanks to Imogen Corrigan and to you for listening to Gone and Evil from History Hit. I certainly think I might have a go at carving a green man into my dungeon at History Hit Towers. If I could just get this chisel past the ogre at the gatehouse. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries including my recent film Medieval Apocalypse and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.
- [66:22]
Narrator
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- [66:52]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hey Tinsley, why don't we use EasyCater to order food for staff lunches?
- [66:56]
Imogen Corrigan
Because my 46 page acronym system is so easy. I just have to salad, stay alert to late arriving deliveries, pie, put in expenses and gugapie. Go out and get everyone's preferences and allergy information.
- [67:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That's supposed to be simple.
- [67:10]
Imogen Corrigan
No, simple is Steven, Irma and Margie prefer lasagna and empanadas.
- [67:15]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Omg.
- [67:16]
Matt Lewis
No need to make work life more complicated.
- [67:18]
Imogen Corrigan
Just use EasyCater, the easy way to.
- [67:21]
Matt Lewis
Get food for work.