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- [00:00]
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- [00:02]
Professor Judith Gesch
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- [00:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaunega
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaunega and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. Should the winds ever rise to catch your sails, drawing you away northwards from mainland Britain, you will come across a small, small archipelago, a flat expanse of barren sands and windswept grass, and a welcome respite before your ship plows through the ferocious North Atlantic waves towards Norway. There are few trees on Orkney, and.
- [01:44]
Podcast Host
Those which do push through the earth.
- [01:46]
Dr. Eleanor Jaunega
Are soon left as knotted roots by the dark winter gales. These are islands rich with the relics of buried civilizations. Instead of trees, monoliths loomed so large that they could only have been planted by giants. Here, people once farmed and rooted their power into the land. As the family tree grew and twisted over the generations, tales of bloodshed followed. Greed polluted the bloodlines as power slipped between the fingers of these new earls like grains of sand. This small chain of islands bore witness to the true brutality of brother against brother, blood against blood. However, just as violence was carried by the winds of the island, there were short breaths of peace, piety, holiness, as in this story of Saint Magnus the Martyr. Earl Magnus was a man of great worth, righteous in all his deeds, beloved by his people and steadfast in his faith. Descended from the most ancient of earls, Magnus and his cousin Haakon had shared defense of these islands. Bound by blood, Magnus and Haakon ruled together peacefully at first. As the winter winds began to quiet, a much greater storm took hold of Earl Haakon. Ambition and greed poisoned his mind. He was cruel and covetous, hungry to rule alone. In the spring, he sent word that he wished to meet Magnus on Egilse. Under the guise of peace, Magnus, trusting in God, gathered his men and went.
- [03:52]
Podcast Host
Though he suspected treachery, he agreed with.
- [03:57]
Dr. Eleanor Jaunega
Haakon to make the short journey from the mainland with two ships of men. All of a sudden, out of the calm sea, came a single ferocious wave which broke over the ship. Magnus trust in God was unshaken, and he continued to travel towards his faith in spite of this foreboding omen which now roared beneath his vessel. Magnus was the first to arrive. His two ships rested on the sand, the shallow water lapping against them. However, the men soon saw the omen fulfilled, dark as the wave that had broken in still waters. On the water's horizon were eight warships. Magnus had been ensnared, but this earl did not flee. He prayed in the church, giving thanks to God, and spoke with calmness to his men, saying that it was better to meet death honorably than to act in fear. His victory already secured before even setting foot on the beach, Haakon commanded his men to slay Magnus. But none dared. Finally, the cook Lifalthur, trembling, lifted his blade above the defeated earl. Magnus gave the cook his tunic and encouraged him not to fear, for he had forgiven all and commended his soul to God. Kneeling in the springtime dew, Magnus made the sign of the cross, prayed for his enemies and received his final blow. His spirit passed to heaven and the place where he fell bloomed green and fertile, a sign of God's favour. Magnus was thereafter called a saint. Miracles were seen at his tomb and his memory endured among the Orcadians, a holy example of justice, piety and courage. The saga of the Earls of Orkney is rich with such histories of family feuds, betrayals and vengeance which seems to plague most Viking families. Spanning three centuries of Scandinavian rule on Orkney, these sagas show the high politics and power struggles of earls, while also exploring the ever changing relationships between Scotland and Norway, Christianity and paganism. To explore the saga's context, complex family trees and blood feuds, I'm joined by Professor Judith Gesch. She's a specialist in old Norse language, literature and runology, and her most recent publication is a newly translated version of the sagas of the Earls of Orkney.
- [06:56]
Podcast Host
Judith, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [06:58]
Professor Judith Gesch
Hello again.
- [06:59]
Podcast Host
I am so excited to have you back because you've got this new translation out of the sagas of the Earls of Orkney. And I suppose the best place to start here is just by asking what exactly that means. What are the sagas?
- [07:16]
Professor Judith Gesch
Okay, well, it's a saga written or compiled at Any rate, in medieval Iceland, probably around the year 1200. And we have lots and lots of sagas from medieval Iceland about all kinds of different topics. But this one is a bit unusual because it's set in the British Isles and is about what happened in the British isles between about 900 and 1200.
- [07:40]
Podcast Host
And that is rather a lot. You know, I suppose it's easy now through the telescope of time to kind of look back and say, oh, from the 9th century to the 12th, that's 300 years or so worth of history. So it's a lot to cram and into to one document. Do we know who wrote these ones? Because, you know, a lot of the sagas, the Icelandic sagas, you know, we get, you know, like the Idriga saga and things like named people. Or is this more of a regional work?
- [08:10]
Professor Judith Gesch
It's like many sagas, it's anonymous, so we don't know who wrote it. And I prefer to think of it as having been compiled because it's quite clear there's many different kinds of sources went into it. The. And there has been some discussion as to who those sources were. I think there's enough evidence in the saga itself that even though it was probably compiled in Iceland, the person who compiled it had either been to Orkney and Shetland or knew people from there. And so many of the sources do seem to emanate from there. I don't think you can say it's made up. I think it is actually based on. In events that actually happened. I mean, whether it's a completely accurate version of what happened or not is something that can be debated, but I think it is very much an account. You called it a document. I'm not sure I'd exactly use that word for. Is a narrative, a story of what happened, but I think it is based on actual events that really happened.
- [09:12]
Podcast Host
Could we dig into that a little bit? Because I think sagas are such important sources because, well, in the first place, we've got so many of. And they're really spectacular in terms of giving us some information about a pretty large period of time where we otherwise have gaps, but as a source as well, you know, because there can be a lot of fantastic things that happen in sagas. You know, we have to kind of read between the lines of these things. But you do mention that these have a real sense of place, that they seem as though the compilers have been to Orkney. Do you think that this is a kind of a reliable source that we can use to understand the political goings.
- [09:52]
Professor Judith Gesch
On at one level, certainly. It's funny, I was listening to the talk you had with Clare Downham and you said something about the sagas go for the bold stories and not for the boring. Oh, it's more complex than that. I actually think that this saga isn't one of those bold stories. It is actually about the complexities of the past. And I don't think it's boring. I think, actually, interestingly, I wouldn't say that every single person in the saga is historical or every single event happened exactly as it's told, but it is an important source precisely because not only do we have a gap, we have absolutely nothing other than archaeology for that period of northern Scotland. And historians often are a little bit wary of sagas. They think they are these bold stories and there's a lot of fiction in them. But I think this one is a little bit different for various reasons.
- [10:53]
Podcast Host
I love that. That's a real historian's answer. You know, we're the worst, you know, because we're always. We're always quite interested in. In sources that are, you know, that show everyday life, that nitty gritty, these small changes in political structures. You know, that's the sort of stuff that excites us. And it's terrible to try to explain to ordinary people who, you know, quite like a good monster fight, that sort of a thing, but really there are.
- [11:21]
Professor Judith Gesch
No monsters in this saga. I'm sorry to disappoint people.
- [11:25]
Podcast Host
Well, that doesn't mean that there is an action, though, which we'll get to later. But I suppose one of my. It's quite interesting to see this new translation, because a lot of the time when you are presented with this saga, it's called the Orchestration or Gnajinga Saga. Is there a particular reason why you've decided to go with the sagas of the Earls of Orkney instead of the more complex name?
- [11:52]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yes, there's three reasons. First of all, the title Orkney Inga saga can't be traced any further back than the 18th century in one of the first editions of the saga. So we're not sure whether it had a title in the Middle Ages or not. If it did, it is something along the lines of Saga of the Earls of Orkney. And the third reason is that Orkney Inga saga translates as the saga of the Orkney Islanders. But a. It's not just about the Orkney Islanders and ordinary people don't feature in it very much. It is very much about the high politics of the rulers and their kind of feuds and problems with each other, really. It is very political in that way.
- [12:38]
Podcast Host
Well, which is quite exciting. You know, I, I, I, of course, I, I long for a day when we'll get more information about ordinary people in a saga, but it doesn't strike.
- [12:48]
Professor Judith Gesch
Me there are a few. There are a few, but not, not as many as one would like, which.
- [12:53]
Podcast Host
Is, I mean, exactly. But I, I do think that this is, that is quite an interesting point though, because so much of.
- [13:03]
Professor Judith Gesch
Or what.
- [13:03]
Podcast Host
We think of as traditional about sources from the Middle Ages oftentimes does have that kind of 18th century, 19th century provenance, when there becomes more of a fad for medieval literary works in particular. And doing that work of kind of uncovering and peeling back the modern layers, I think is a really important bit of historiography.
- [13:27]
Professor Judith Gesch
And that also applies to, I mean, the other question you could have asked is, you know, why translate this when it's already been translated into English four times, times before? But again, there is stuff to peel back there, because every translation is of its time and actually the most recent one was published in 1978, which, I mean, a year I remember well, but for most people that's quite a long time ago.
- [13:51]
Podcast Host
So you could tell that I'm a nerdy historian because I'm like, no, I would never ask that. Of course we need a new translation. Are you joking? More translations?
- [13:59]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, I read somewhere that Homer is translated into English every 10 years, so, you know, quite right too.
- [14:05]
Podcast Host
You know, I think that that is, that is really important because in theory we should always be kind of growing as researchers. We should be building on the last things. And, and that means that you do need to go back over translations. It, it just does, you know, so, which keeps us very busy. You know, there's no such thing as being done with history, is there?
- [14:24]
Professor Judith Gesch
But no, exactly.
- [14:26]
Podcast Host
Well, in terms of the, the actual people of Oring, yeah, we don't get to know that much about ordinary folks in this. We know more about the earls, but I suppose. When do they show up on the Orkney Islands?
- [14:41]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, it's interesting because the one thing, the saga, it actually starts in the dawn of prehistory in mythical past, in order to establish that the Earls of Orkney are descended from Norwegian rulers, basically. And then it leaps straight into the Viking age, but it doesn't actually tell us about when people from Scandinavia landed in northern Scotland. I mean, it vaguely starts at the time of Harald Feinher, which is when many sagas say that people from Norway went out west and settled in various parts around the North Atlantic. But it doesn't describe any settlement or the earliest settlers. It just kind of assumes that there are people there who are presumably of Scandinavian heritage, although it doesn't necessarily even make that clear. So we have to rely on archaeologists to kind of tell us, and that's something that archaeologists debate as well. But I think we can say for certain that by around the year 900, there are mainly people of Scandinavian origin living there.
- [15:57]
Podcast Host
I suppose that also makes sense because fundamentally it's a pretty useful place to stop between Norway and the island of Britain itself. You know, if you're, if you're out in long boats, that's a quite a good one to be stopping at. So it makes sense. But I do think that that is, you know, a thing that oftentimes people find frustrating because, yeah, there is this kind of implicit, of course you, you understand where Orkney is, of course, you understand what the people are there. And we're sort of desperate to know these things that they take as red, you know.
- [16:33]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, yeah, I think probably, I think there was a long process of first Viking raids and things, and then there's probably, at least the way I read the evidence, a kind of slightly secondary process of then people arriving and settling there. But it's quite hard to track down exactly what happened.
- [16:57]
Podcast Host
As you say, this is, you know, a pretty century spanning saga. So in order to dig into it a little bit, I. We think maybe we'll, we're just going to focus up on one particular bloodline in the story. And this starts off with a man called Turf Einar, which fantastic name, bring it back, I have to say, kind of ends with St. Magnus. So in terms of getting into this, who exactly is Turf Einar? And you know, can we say that this is a reliable look at a real person?
- [17:34]
Professor Judith Gesch
He is the illegitimate son of an Earl in Norway. And it's quite funny because the Earl in Norway, one of his sons, gets killed while raiding with Harald Finehair in Bush Isles. And in compensation, the King of Norway gives him the Northern Isles to rule over. But then he doesn't want to do it and he can't persuade any of his legitimate sons to do it either. So in the end, Ter Faenar, the illegitimate one, gets to go and he's called Ter Faenar because according to the saga, because there was very little wood in the islands, which is true. He discovered the use of peat, basically. So that Terf in this context refers to Pete as a fuel. Is he a plausible person? Funnily enough, I Mean, I think quite a lot of what he does is fictional, but in the saga, he recites five stanzas, which are, I think, very plausibly from the 10th century. I think whether they were composed by him or not, I don't know. But that is the kind of thing that the saga is put together from. There was this poetry which survived in the oral tradition, and then in the 12th century, people started writing narratives around the poetry. So I do think that poetry is genuine, but whether it was by him or not, I don't know. But of course, then it's a wonderful episode and people love it because it's got the blood eagle scenario going on there, and he's basically, what happens is that some other sons of the King of Norway kill his father back in Norway, then they come over to Orkney and he exacts revenge on them through this kind of blood eagle thing.
- [19:32]
Podcast Host
Can we talk a little bit about the blood eagle thing? Because I think this is something that I get asked about all the time, even not as a Viking specialist. This is something that really. It lives in everyone's imagination about the Vikings. So can you explain what a blood eagle is?
- [19:48]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, the way the sources describe it, and it occurs more than once in sagas, is that someone is sliced in some way on their back so that their heart and lungs are pulled out through their back, and then that is the way they die, basically.
- [20:07]
Podcast Host
Yeah, that'll do it. Yeah.
- [20:09]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, actually, there was an article recently in which various people, including people with medical experience, tried to explore whether this was even possible. And I think they came to the conclusion that it might just about have been possible, but probably not.
- [20:28]
Podcast Host
Well, yeah, I mean, I hate to be the person, like an annoying historian, but it just doesn't strike me as particularly plausible.
- [20:35]
Professor Judith Gesch
No. And there is a good explanation for it, actually, which a scholar called Robert Frank came up with many years ago. In that, again, it derives from poetry. And in the poetry, there's a lot of description of birds like ravens and eagles as the kind of beasts of battle feeding on the corpses. And one way of looking at it is just a kind of development from this idea of a carrion bird kind of eating the dead person. And I think that that's quite plausible. You know, it's a story that's developed from something that has a basis in fact, but I don't think they actually carved people up in that way that it's described in the saga.
- [21:18]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I mean, well, it's a. I'll tell you what, it's a good story, though. You know, it gets people talk, it's gruesome.
- [21:26]
Professor Judith Gesch
And people like a bit of gruesome when it comes to Vikings, I suppose.
- [21:30]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. And that's the difficulty too, I think that, you know, we always want people to be excited about medieval things. I always want people to be excited about the sagas and then they ask me about this and then I immediately say I don't think that's real and you know, lose my audience, which isn't great. But you know, sometimes you just give the people a little bit of excitement in some things. You know, sometimes things are allegories or metaphors and I think that that is, that's true with any work of literature.
- [22:01]
Professor Judith Gesch
And it's not, it's not just us doing it, you know, it's not just you give getting people excited. I mean, the saga writers were doing it too, that they had the. Exactly the same motivation, I think, telling a good story.
- [22:13]
Podcast Host
Well, we. So we have the story about the blood eagle, but I find it quite interesting what happens afterwards because there's a whole complex taxation thing that arises as the result of blood eagling someone's king. Again, terrible historian alert. I'm like, oh, that's quite interesting. Can you tell us a little bit about what happens in terms of the dynamics between the earls and the kings of Norway as a result of this?
- [22:42]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, yes, so I think that is probably something that is a bit retrospective because later on in the saga and I mean you talk about the 300 year old span of the saga and I think it's important to remember that most of the saga is actually set in the 12th century and not in the Viking age at all. So in the Christian 12th century. And one of the important things that happened then is the building of St Magnus Cathedral in Kirkwall and the whole story about the taxes kind of is looking back from that time when the earliest kind of got people to pay the taxes there, but gave them their inheritance back in exchange. And so whoever compiled the saga, I think, well, there must have been a time before when the king took their inheritance off them.
- [23:43]
Podcast Host
I love the idea of writing a saga in order to explain a taxation system. Fantastic stuff, you know, it's really good.
- [23:51]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, there is a bit of everything in this saga actually. You know, it's not just. Even though there's not too many ordinary people in there, there's many different topics are covered in different ways.
- [24:01]
Podcast Host
Well, and it's interesting because it does kind of give us a little bit of a glimpse. You know, as you say, this is really focusing on the earls. But if what we're talking about is, you know, people's inheritance and the King of Norway taking it, you know, or trying to explain this tricky situation, it does sort of show us that something is happening with the population of Orkdi. You know, the King of Norway must have done something at some point, so we have to explain it.
- [24:29]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah. And the. And the population does appear a bit like a Greek chorus or something. You know, they're always complaining about their rulers. So, you know, although we don't really meet them individually, they're kind of, you know, you get a sense of the dynamic between the rulers and the ruled. I mean, that particular population is the householders, people who actually own land and have some kind of farm or estate, and probably usually male, not always.
- [24:59]
Podcast Host
So what at the end of all of this is sort of turf Einar's legacy on the island and within the sagas, is he someone that we can see see as important in establishing a lineage there, for example?
- [25:14]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yes, that's very much what happens. And there's a certain amount of toing and froing in this early part of the saga as to who's going to rule. And various claimants are got rid of, but basically all the earls of Orkney claim their ancestry back to Ter Faenor, which is interesting, you know, being descended from an illegitimate son of in Norway.
- [25:45]
Podcast Host
I think, especially when once you hit the period in which everybody begins to Christianize, because, you know, as you say there, these are a series of stories that are written probably more around in the Christian period. How does the saga explore this transition into Christianity? Because that's one of my favorite things about sagas in general, is just kind of looking at this conversion process and what that means.
- [26:16]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, it's just an event in the saga, you know, King Olaf Tryggvason, who's in saga literature, often given the honor of having Christianized, the whole of the Viking diaspora come sailing along and basically persuades the Earl to become Christian. And then it just sort of happens, and it's a part of the saga that doesn't actually survive in medieval manuscripts. The manuscript situation of the saga is very complicated, but that particular chapter survives only in an early modern version, not even in Old Norse, but written in Dano Norwegian. You know, we don't really know whether possibly the medieval version might have been different. It happens in chapter 12, and the saga is 112 chapters. So I think. And people do kind of focus a lot on Terfenar and the early chapters but actually, the vast majority of the saga is set in the Christian period, but they're aware of the past, because the early earls, it's often said that they're buried in a mound, in the heathen fashion, I think at least three of them. And you can go to those places and there are mounds there. Whether those earls are actually buried there or not is another question. But there are places with mounds that obviously people thought that's where our earliest earls were actually buried.
- [27:45]
Podcast Host
Well, this is a really interesting point to me about this particular chapter being early modern in character, because it does show you that this really is a compilation. This is. There's a continual editing process going on. You know, if. If we have to have a story explaining the taxation rates, that then also we have to explain how it is that Christianity came to be. And someone gets in there and has to do that at some point.
- [28:11]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah. And it's a problem for the translator because they're. One thing I don't think enough people have emphasized enough about this saga is there is no single manuscript which has the whole saga as people experience it. For example, in the Penguin translation, or even in my translation, there are fragmentary manuscripts. Most of them are actually very fragmentary, just a leaf or two. And then there's a couple of longer manuscripts, but even they're not complete. And of course, the longer ones tend to be later. And then you have to allow for the fact they might have made changes or added things or taken things out. So it's been, and I'm relying on previous work that previous editors have put together what they think is the closest to what might have been the original compilation. But you always have to be aware when looking at any particular chapter of the saga, which manuscript it's from. And some of those manuscripts are quite early and probably quite reliable, and others are not so much.
- [29:17]
Podcast Host
Well, I mean, I hate to be, again, a bit of a questioner of this, but I don't really see a smooth conversion process happening where someone shows up and just says, hey, do you want to be a Christian? Yeah, sure. Sounds great. Taking on a completely new religion is a pretty big decision.
- [29:34]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, I'm sure it took time. And again, in the saga is just presented as the Earl. I think probably rulers did see an advantage to themselves in becoming Christian, but actually converting the population. And who was the population? We haven't really discussed, because the saga really has absolutely nothing to say about it. Obviously, Orkney and Shetland were not empty at the time the Vikings arrived. How many, if any, of the earlier population survived there and they would have been Christian and the Incomers certainly would have encountered Christianity. So there may have been a kind of process going on even before Olaf Trygguson turned up.
- [30:36]
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- [31:20]
Podcast Host
So when you have this. This conversion, does the saga, you know, it says it's a pretty quick, yeah, sure, fine, I'll, I'll be Christian kind of a thing. Do we see that this within the saga book puts an end to any kind of, I don't know, pre Christian action, you know, or. Or are we still seeing kind of magic and exciting things happening alongside?
- [31:43]
Professor Judith Gesch
No, there. There are little bits of magic happening and certainly, if it certainly doesn' people killing each other. But then I don't think Christianity has ever managed to stop people killing each other.
- [31:54]
Podcast Host
Not today.
- [31:55]
Professor Judith Gesch
But what's interesting, it kind of happens more than once because a lot of the story is about co earls. It's an unusual political situation. You often have more than one earl who are fairly closely related to each other, ruling together. And very often it goes fine for a few years and then it some point, one of them decides he wants to get rid of the other one. And there's a guy called Thorfinn the Mighty who eventually gets rid of his nephew. And then after that. And this is in the Christian period already, this is in the middle of the 11th century. They never actually kill their relative themselves. There's always someone else to do it. But it's very obvious that it's done for their benefit. And after he's got rid of his nephew, he then goes to Rome and is absolved of everything he might have done and comes back and is an excellent ruler and a popular and successful ruler of Orkney. And that pattern occurs a couple of times in the saga. I find that really quite fascinating.
- [32:59]
Podcast Host
Yeah, you do in the saga have quite a few people who are going on pilgrimage. You know, we've got people tuning in for Rome and Jerusalem. All sorts of interesting things.
- [33:07]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yes. No, there's a lot of that kind of Christian activity mainly in the 12th century and.
- [33:13]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Which I think is Great. Because it does show you how people really do get around. You know, if it, if we can expect someone from Orkney to show up in Rome, that tells us a lot about patterns of movement, actually.
- [33:27]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah. And later on, as you say, as far as Jerusalem.
- [33:31]
Podcast Host
Well, speaking of Thorfinn the Mighty, can we talk a little bit about him and the role he plays in the sagas?
- [33:37]
Professor Judith Gesch
He's interesting to me because it's clear in the saga that of his four grandparents, only his paternal grandfather is actually a Scandinavian, a Norse speaking, you know, his previous Earl of Orkney, Sigurd the Stout and Thorfinn is the youngest of several sons of his father. He is legitimate, but he's brought up by his mother's father's grandfather in Scotland somewhere. And also on his father's side there's some kind of Irish person is his grandmother. So to me it's really interesting. I think he must have grown up at the very least being bilingual and possibly even not learning old Norse till a little bit later in life when he kind of became Earl of Orkney. But culturally he was very Scandinavian because he had poets, and in particular a very well known Icelandic poet called Ardnar Jardlaskald working for him, composing poetry in praise of him. And skaldic poetry is not easy to understand. You have to be linguistically quite good to decipher it. So I think he's a quite interesting example of the blending of cultures that you find there, but that somehow or other from the 11th century onwards the culture in Orkney and Shetland becomes almost entirely Norse, at least as far as we can make out. And that's because I think the kings of Norway have really started taking an interest in the place and their connections are mainly with Norway and not so much with Scotland. But throughout the saga then there's more and more connections with Scotland. And eventually that's what happens is that in the 15th century, Orkney and Shetland become a part of Scotland.
- [35:34]
Podcast Host
This is a particularly interesting bit to me because it does, you know, it sort of begs a particular question. Yes, you have a lot of people who are within the Scandinavian culture here, but they're very close to Scotland, aren't they? You know, it's. This is someone who is being heralded as being within this particular Norwegian context. But also, yeah, your mom is maybe the daughter of King Malcolm of Scotland, but we don't really, it doesn't really talk about the Scottishness at all. It's just sort of like, don't worry about that. You don't need to think about Scottish people, even though this guy kind of.
- [36:12]
Professor Judith Gesch
Is, you know, it depends what you mean by being close to Scotland. I mean, you know, if you go to Shetland, people are quite proud of the fact that the nearest railway station is in Norway. You know, the center of power in Scotland was elsewhere, and there's this great big area up in the north of Scotland which is not very fully inhabited. I haven't even mentioned Caithness yet. I mean, Caithness was a part of the Earldom of Orkney, so. Yes, so if you look at a map, it looks close, but it's actually not necessarily that close. Especially as you say, these people who are very good at sailing longships here, there and everywhere.
- [36:54]
Podcast Host
I think that's a really interesting point because, I mean, certainly within the saga, the way that the earls consider themselves and comport themselves as, you know, they have power as a result of ties with Norway, not Scotland. You know, I think that for historians, it's almost a little bit disappointing too, because we have so little information on what's happening in Scotland at this point in time that, you know, you sort of look to the song of the earls of Orkney and say, can you tell us anything? And they're like, no, that's not interesting. Where we're just talking about Norway. Oh, no.
- [37:28]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, they do get their. Their King David's mixed up, for example.
- [37:32]
Podcast Host
Well, okay. Well, they're just like me, then. That's fantastic news.
- [37:35]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah.
- [37:37]
Podcast Host
But I do think that that is. That is interesting because it certainly tells us at the very least where power in this region lies. There's simply more to be gleaned, I think, from Norway at this point than Scotland. And that. That just is how things are.
- [37:52]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah. And as you said, given that there is this whole kind of area around the North Atlantic, not just power, but contacts and cultural exchange, and everything happened all the way from Norway to Dublin and then to Iceland and Faroe. So Orkney is very centrally situated in that particular scheme of things.
- [38:18]
Podcast Host
So just in terms of legacy, what can we say about Thorfinn here? You know, is this someone who is seen as kind of being a bridging link to Norway? Is this someone who's important in terms of this sort of normalization of what's happening in Norway? Or am I just interested in it because I like the mystery?
- [38:40]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, certainly he and his rival, his nephew Rgnwald, they're both kind of hieing over to Norway to kind of persuade the king of Norway to support them rather than the other guy. And the saga makes Quite clear that the Norwegian king actually says to Ringwaldr, well, I know if I make an agreement with you, you'll stick to it. But I know if I make an agreement with Thorfinn, then he'll say yes, but then he'll go and do whatever he wants to do anyway. He's the one who eventually wins out in the end through force of personality, I would say, but I'm not sure. Thorfinn's legacy is not quite so much. The interesting thing is his power base was in Bursi in the northwest corner of the mainland of Orkney. And you can still see remnants of buildings from the period when that was the power base. But then the power base gradually moved and there's a site called Orpher in the south of mainland of Orkney, which is facing in a slightly different direction. And Orfra is quite close to Kirkwall, which then becomes the main power center. Thorfinn's legacy didn't really, you know, didn't manage to keep Bercy as the power center. It kind of moved with later earls.
- [39:58]
Podcast Host
Speaking of later earls, I think we have to get to sort of the big name. The big name of the saga of the earls of Orkney, I would argue, is perhaps Saint Magnus. Can we talk a little bit about the context behind the story of St. Magnus?
- [40:17]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, it's the same situation I was describing earlier, that he rules with his cousin Haakon Paulson, yet is his cousin. They actually ruled for quite a long time together and the saga passes over this very lightly. But they spent chance part of their time ruling together, going on basically Viking raids together, even though we're now in the early 12th century and not really.
- [40:44]
Podcast Host
That's very naughty.
- [40:45]
Professor Judith Gesch
Wow.
- [40:45]
Podcast Host
Okay.
- [40:46]
Professor Judith Gesch
You know, they go off and they kill off somebody in Shetland that they didn't like. It doesn't say why and so on. But then again, the same thing happens as with Thorfinn, that Haakon Paulsson decides that really they both go to the King of Norway and Haakon Paulsen decides that it's really up to him to be sole ruler. He wants to be sole ruler. Obviously this co rulership thing irks people so that there's tension between them. And then Haakon does a dastardly thing. He kind of agrees to a peace treaty and says, let's have a meeting to celebrate our peace treaty and we'll each come with so and so many men. And of course he shows up with twice as many men men as he agreed and basically poor old Magnus is killed. It's very detailed and moving account of the process. He tries to negotiate. He says, oh, I'll let you be sole ruler. Just let me go away and I'll go away and I'll go to Rome or whatever. I'll keep out of your way. But Haakon is then persuaded by one of his followers who says, well, we can't have two earls alive. It's got to be just one. And nobody wants to kill Magnus because he was quite popular. And Haakon gets his cook to do the deed, presumably because cooks are used to butchering. Of course, the interesting thing from the political point of view, again, Haakon does the kind of same sort of thing that Thorfinn did. He also then eventually becomes a popular and successful ruler, but Magnus becomes a saint. And if you look at the kind of overall politics of the saga, there are these guys like Thorfinn and Haakon who are successful and powerful. They're not very nice. And then there are the nice guys like Magnus and then Magnus's nephew Rudenwalder, who's my favorite character in the saga, who are a bit nicer or a bit different or not so ruthless at any rate, in their politicking. And they always get killed again by the henchmen of their co rulers. So it's kind of interesting that it's, you know, and probably that reflects some kind of tension between the rulers and the church, because then, although at first the bishop didn't want to accept Magnus as a saint, but then he started to coming up with lots of miracles and then the bishop had to give in.
- [43:43]
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- [44:28]
Podcast Host
Well, yeah, I think this is a really important point because it's interesting, I think, to see Magnus as a martyr when he was doing some very naughty things earlier in his career, you know, rating and things like this, and. And then he's killed, I would argue, in more of a political context than a religious one. You know, this isn't, you know, killed for his beliefs, it's killed for being one earl too many. So there does seem to be almost kind of like a pressing of him into martyrdom here, and that's generally through the performance of miracles, right?
- [45:04]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yes. And we were talking earlier about ordinary people. Funnily enough, it's in the miracle section of the saga that we actually meet some ordinary people. And the other interesting thing there is that most of them are in Shetland rather than Orkney. And there is again, a sense, because the earldom comprised Shetland, Orkney and Caithness, there is a kind of sense that they divided the place up between themselves. And I think both Magnus and his nephew Regnwaldr, their main power base was in the northern part of the earldom, and someone like Thorfinder and Haakon, their main power base was in the southern part of the earldom. So there's those kinds of internal tensions happening there as well. But the miracles are wonderful. Well, there's the usual kind of thing, you know, people with leprosy or, you know, someone was building a house and a beam falls on his head, but he's cured. And there's several which involve people working on farms in Shetland. And the farmer says, oh, you should stop working now, because tomorrow is the feast day of St. Magnus. And these contrary workers just decide to carry on working just to make piss off the farmer. I think not, because they really like working. And then they're struck down with some kind of madness. And it's only when they agree to go on pilgrimage or pay money to the shrine of Saint Magnus or whatever, that they're cured of this madness that came over them. But the absolute best miracle involves actually some English men, don't know where they came from, who are playing a game of dice. And one of them throws two sixes and the other one thinks, oh, my God, how am I going to beat him? I can't throw more than two sixes. But he prays to St Magnus and one of the dice splits, so he actually throws two sixes and a one.
- [47:17]
Podcast Host
The patron saint of gamblers, Saint Magnus. This is fantastic stuff. I love the idea that a saint would be concerned with your game of dice.
- [47:28]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, I don't know quite well. I think there's also another one where someone throws dice as to whether if they're cured, will they go on pilgrimage to Rome or will they give money to the shrine of Saint Magnus? And of course, it's giving money to the shrine of Saint Magnus. Surprise, surprise.
- [47:48]
Podcast Host
Well, where is the shrine of Saint Magnus, then? So is he, you know, we've got a lot of.
- [47:54]
Professor Judith Gesch
He is buried in one of the pillars of the cathedral in Kirkwall.
- [47:58]
Podcast Host
I love that he's in the pillar. That's not a heavy handed allegory at all.
- [48:05]
Professor Judith Gesch
No, I can't remember exactly when we think he was moved there. Obviously in the beginning. I mean, for the first 20 years he was buried in Bursi and it's only when the bishop agreed that he should, he should be a saint, that they moved him. So when they built the Cathedral, St Magnus built by Regenwaldr, his nephew, obviously they wanted the saint's relics there, so he would have been by the altar originally, then at some point was moved into the pillar and the pillar was opened up in the 1920s. And so there are photographs from then of the bones there. And I once wrote an article together with an osteoarchaeologist and we decided that the damage to the skull that can be seen in these photographs does fit very closely with the description of the killing of St. Magnus. And who else would you bury in a pilgrim?
- [49:05]
Podcast Host
That's true.
- [49:06]
Professor Judith Gesch
In the cathedral? So it hasn't been opened up since the 1920s and they wouldn't do that naturally. But he's definitely there and he's not complete. And as the osteoarchaeologist pointed out at the time, there's enough of him missing to make sure that all the churches dedicated to Saint Magnus in Europe have at least a little bone. Oh, I love that.
- [49:30]
Podcast Host
We've been talking a lot about these very powerful men, these very powerful earls and saints. Are there any women who crop up in the sagas or are they kind of more of a background feature?
- [49:41]
Professor Judith Gesch
Not that many, but. But they are very memorable, each in a different way. Actually, probably my favorite one is Saint Magnus, Mother Thora, because ostensibly the meeting on Aylesee was supposed to be a peace meeting. So she'd already sent out the invitations for both of them to come and have a feast at her place. And then only one of them shows up and it's not her son, it's Haakon. And she behaves very, very bravely. She basically says, oh, I was expecting two of you. However, since there's only one of you, I have a request. I would like my son to be buried in consecrated ground, because first Haakon didn't allow that. And then you can be as a son to me and I shall be as a mother to you. And this actually makes that, that old warrior Haakon cry. He feels guilty and then he says, okay, bury him where you like. And I just think that whole chapter is just so moving. It's not true, really. Well, that's all she does. We don't really meet her elsewhere. I mean, she's mentioned once or twice and she's married again and has another son and so on. But just her behavior in that chapter is really, I think, quite extraordinary and. And praiseworthy in a way that none of the men are ever presented as being praiseworthy.
- [51:14]
Podcast Host
I think that's a really interesting point because, you know, you have. Women often show up in these things almost as allegories, I guess. You know, like oftentimes, I suppose, when we're presented with named women in sagas, you know, they're temptresses or they're people who are kind of egging men on to do bad things or otherwise. They are this. This peak feminine person. Like this is how feminine bravery should be established and how women can get things to their ends, even if it's not necessarily having a living son. Right. But I do find it interesting because maybe these aren't particularly reliable discussions about what a named woman did, but it does, I suppose, tell us a lot about expectations of women within the culture more generally.
- [52:07]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, I think this is why I think the saga is a bit of a patchwork, because I think there's two contrasting ones I can't resist mentioning. The first is Ragnhildr. So she's in the early part of the saga, she's actually the daughter of Eric Bloodaxe, and she actually. I think she's really a literary device to make sure that the dynasty gets started, because there's five sons of Thorfinn Skullsplitter, and she kind of works her way through several of them by persuading other men that if only she marries one and then several of them, and then she persuades other men to get rid of her husband, promising marriage, but then never actually fulfilling her promise to marry the guy who killed her. So that kind of takes care of several of the claimants to the earldom. Yeah. And obviously being the daughter of Erik Bloodaxe and Gunnhild, who is a similar man eater in the sagas, I think that probably is quite a fictional story, but she plays her role in the politics of the saga. But then later in the 12th century, there's this woman called Ragna who has a son, but there's no mention of a husband. And she has two estates, one on North Ronaldsea and one on Papuaestri. So she's obviously a well to do, important woman. And twice in the saga, she challenges two different earls. I mean, in the case of Earl Pautl, who's the rival of Regenwaldr, she basically goes to him and says, look, you're trying to fend off this claim on the earldom by Regenwaldr, but I think the way you need to do it is you need support, you need, need friends, you need people who will support you in your fight with Reganwaldr. And he just looks at her and says, you're not the Earl of Orkney. I'm the Earl of Orkney. But of course he doesn't follow her advice and it ends badly for him.
- [54:04]
Podcast Host
There you go, there you go. Women have work to be doing. Listen, soft power is power. That's what I always say.
- [54:11]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, well, I often think of that as the first example of Matthew transplaining in the sagas. You know, he's kind of saying, it's nothing to do with you, you're just a woman. But actually she was right. There you go.
- [54:22]
Podcast Host
There you go. You've already mentioned that we have some features of the landscape that crop up within the sagas. So, for example, barrier mounds and that sort of thing. Is there anything else that we see?
- [54:40]
Professor Judith Gesch
Everything. It's interesting to compare with Iceland because there was nothing in Iceland when the Vikings arrived and then they created a whole society there and it still exists. But the only things in Iceland that are a thousand years old are the place names because their building style was different. And you just don't have buildings from even a few hundred years ago, let alone a thousand years ago. Whereas in northern Scotland, where the building style is in stone. Well, first of all, there's structures that predate the Viking age, like the brochs or maes, how. Which is a 5000 year old chambered tomb. And you can't miss them because even today they're still upstanding in the landscape. And both the Broch of Musa in Shetland and Maze Howe feature in the saga events happen in them without the saga really saying, oh, well, this is an old place. I mentioned the mounds in which whoever compiled the saga at any rate thought the earls might be buried. Again, they're prehistoric, probably collapsed brochs in most cases. But then there are also places from the Viking age and later in the 12th century there's. There's a whole host of ruins of 12th century churches all over the islands. There's buildings on the Broch of Bursay, also from the 12th century. In Orfur, which I mentioned earlier, in the south of mainland, there's a Very small, but beautiful remains of a round church, which is also mentioned in the saga because Orfur plays quite a large part in several episodes in the saga. There is, of course, St. Magnus Cathedral, which, if you haven't been to Orkney, you really must go. It is an absolutely wonderful building. I don't know if you've been to Durham. It's very like Durham, smaller and pink because it's made of this kind of red sandstone. Because I think ORKNEY until the 20th century really is largely an agricultural society. It still is to a very large extent. There hasn't been a lot of building, so a of lot. You know, it's enabled the older buildings to survive from the Neolithic right through to more recent times. And then, of course, there are the place names as well. The majority of the farm names in Orkney were actually given in the Norse period in Old Norse, and a lot of the minor names as well. So you can actually just go with a saga in your hand and kind of look at all these places that are mentioned there and imagine what's happening, because the landscape hasn't changed that much. And as I said, there are still standing buildings you can visit.
- [57:29]
Podcast Host
I think that it's a must to read this before one goes, because you can have the context for everything, not just kind of reading a plaque on the side of the road. That's brilliant. Well, I suppose just kind of coming towards the end. Now, what was the process of translating this like? You know, yes, there were translations before, but for you. What really called you to begin this?
- [57:56]
Professor Judith Gesch
First of all, it took me some while to realize, but once you start looking into it, it's very, very obvious that every single previous translation is translating a slightly different version of the text. Because of what I mentioned earlier about how it's been kind of reconstructed. And I wanted just to make that clearer. And because of all the archaeology I've mentioned, I'm very well aware that the saga is often read by historians and archaeologists who may not know so much Old Norse. So I wanted them to be aware of that aspect of the text. So it's designed for people who don't read, obviously don't read Old Norse, but I try to incorporate. Incorporate a lot of the kind of knowledge that people who do read Old Norse might already have, but doesn't come across in the previous translations. But at the same time, I also wanted, and this is a slight trend now in saga translations back in 1978 and even earlier, what translators are doing is writing what they think of as good English. And there's many aspects of this that it means that you're not translating the saga the way it was written. Because saga style is a bit different from good English style. There's kind of various aspects of it that I really like. One is that they don't mind repeating words. I'm sure you were taught in school that you should never use the same word in a paragraph. You should find synonyms and things. They didn't bother. They may just use the safe of the word was the right word. They kept using it. They switch between past and present tense. That's a very well known feature of saga style, which sounds odd at first in English translation, but you get used to it very quickly and actually it sounds quite okay. And then it's also very. It's all kind of coordinated causes rather than subordinated causes. And they did this and they went there and they did and again. And all of this together I think actually works better in English than people might have thought. And particularly if you read it out loud. I kind of encourage people to try reading bits of the saga out loud because I think without having to learn old Norse, you get a little bit of a sense of what the text was like in Old Norse. So that was a large part of my motivation. I love that as well.
- [60:22]
Podcast Host
Fun question. Just a little bit of dessert at the end here. You've already mentioned it, but what's your favorite character or story from the saga? You know, just in a 300 year long saga, what's your favorite?
- [60:35]
Professor Judith Gesch
Actually, it's one I haven't mentioned the whole of chapter 85. It's Regenwaldr, who is the nephew of St. Magnus and grew up in Norway, but his mother was the sister of St. Magnus. And through that he wants to claim the earldom. So he keeps trying to come over and kind of win people over. And on one of his trips over he gets shipwrecked in Shetland. And there's just this amazing. All kinds of weird things happen in that chapter. There's a really detailed description of the actual shipwreck down to the day of the week in which it happened. Which meant that in the 1970s various archaeologists thought that they might actually be able to find the ship, which in Gulberwick in Shetland they didn't find it, but it's very, very realistic. And then there's Reganwaldr, who is a kind of slightly superficial, jokey sort of character anyway, composes all strange stanzas. And that's another of these chapters. And again it's in Shetland where we meet Some ordinary people. So for example, there's a serving after the shipwreck, they're drying off in a farmhouse and there's a serving woman comes running in and she's all wet and she says she's cold. And everyone says, what are you saying, woman? I can't understand you. And Ringwaldu says I can understand her. And it turns out that her friend had fallen into the well or something. It's snowing outside and they're all wet and just so concerned of little interesting things. And then there's even more going on in that chapter. But I could spend the next hour talking about that chapter. I know you don't want me to do that, so I just suggest everyone go away and read chapter 85.
- [62:26]
Podcast Host
I really like that because it's those little details that tell us so much about what life was like, you know? Yeah, okay, maybe that story didn't happen, but it is believable to think that these people are living in a world with extreme cold, with these. These little dangers. And it does highlight things that happen and what life might have been like. This is, you know, fundamentally a work that focuses on the great and the good and the grand. You do get an idea of life at every level, I think.
- [62:59]
Professor Judith Gesch
Yeah, exactly. And whether or not it happened, it could have happened because, you know, it's very true to life. You know, I think think people were being shipwrecked all the time. This wasn't a particularly bad shipwreck because they lost the ship and everything on it, but nobody died.
- [63:15]
Podcast Host
So we'll take it. That's what counts as good luck. Well, Judith, I can't thank you enough for coming back to visit with us and thank you so much for all your work on this new translation.
- [63:27]
Professor Judith Gesch
Well, thank you for the chat. This is really good talking to you about this proper conversation.
- [63:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaunega
My thanks again to Professor Judith Yesh and thanks to you for listening to Gone Medieval from history hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film the Trial of Joan of Arc, by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify.
- [63:58]
Podcast Host
Where you can leave us comments and.
- [63:59]
Dr. Eleanor Jaunega
Suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.