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- [00:02]
A
Today's trivia quiz is on mobile games. All right, I'm very excited about this one. I'm going to give you a few hints. Ready? Ready. This game has no ads and no need for WI fi to play. Wait, so does it cost a lot of money? Nope. It's completely free to play.
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B
What? No way.
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A
It has amazing graphics and they recently added a bunch of new minigames. Hold on.
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B
Is that Royal Kingdom?
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A
Yes. Bingo. So if you haven't played Royal Kingdom yet, go to the App Store or Google Play and download it for free.
- [00:40]
C
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gob smacking details and. And latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots and murders, to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here, find out who we really were with Gone Medieval. Good evening, Gone Medievalers. I'm saying good evening. I don't know when you're listening to this, but it's evening and that's important where I am right now. We are back inside the Tower of London with huge thanks to historic royal palaces. If you listened to the last episode, which I really, really hope you did, Eleanor came to the Tower to find out all about its history as a royal palace, and we haven't heard a peep from her since. We're all a little bit worried that she might have fallen foul of the other main use of this incredible building as a prison, as Eleanor had been taken prisoner and locked in the Tower. Well, producer Anne Marie and I have come down here to try and break Eleanor out. We're determined to find out what's happened. We're going to scour the Tower of London, but we're here after hours. There's no visitors here. There's a few lights on in windows. We stood right outside the immense white tower, looking up at it against an inky blue sky with the tower lit up, the white stone sort of glowing against the darkness of the sky. Oh, it's so atmospheric. I could definitely stand here all night and just look at this. But I'm also a little bit worried that Eleanor might be suffering in a cell somewhere and that we ought to make an effort to go and find her and see if we can break her out. Come on, Ann Marie, let's. Eleanor. Elena. Eleanor, you are here. You are stuck. We're Here to break you out, have no fear.
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B
Finally, Eleanor, we found you.
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C
You're free.
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B
Matt, this is not my usual dungeon. Help.
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C
Yeah, we've just been transported to a slightly different one. I mean, this is pretty opulent as dungeons go.
- [02:54]
B
Absolutely. And I think that that is one of the things that is at the heart of the Tower of London today. We really look at it as this gorgeous palace. You know, it's got a wonderful structure all around it, it's got lots of different vernacular architectures, but let's be honest, the middle part of it was attention for quite some time.
- [03:14]
C
Yeah, I mean, you. So the last episode you found all about the history of this place as a palace, as a fantastic place to live if you happen to be a king.
- [03:22]
D
Yeah.
- [03:23]
C
So maybe we ought to start just by refreshing listeners minds about when the tower is built.
- [03:28]
B
So the White Tower, which is the first, and I would argue most impressive, iconic bit of the tower built as a part of William the Conqueror's campaign to just introduce English people to the fact that they're ruled by Normans now. And it is a really impressive building. It's just square. It's almost like a child's idea of what a castle would be. Four big straight walls, it's got nice little rounded turrets at the outside. But even though it is a piece of Norman vernacular architecture, a lot of what we see now actually is a result of works that were redone in the 13th century. So you see things like very cool arched Norman windows and false arcades on the side. But you know, a couple hundred years go by and you need to tuck point things. Okay, let's be so real.
- [04:18]
C
And it is such a Norman thing, isn't it? I mean, they might as well have just done it in the shape of an N. For Norman. Normans are here.
- [04:23]
B
It is so funny because it does not look out of place in Normandy at all. And you know, in fact, they really go out of their way to do that. So, for example, one of my favorite nerdy things about the tower is down at the base of the tower, there's just a bunch of stones, just a bits of rocks. And William the Conqueror brought them over from Caen, which was kind of like his model city in Normandy that he creates in order to, I don't know, make a big deal about his dynasty essentially. So he's making this direct connection. He's saying this is now a part of Normandy. It's not that like he rules England and Normandy. He's like, guess what, there's a bit.
- [04:58]
C
Of Normandy Right here.
- [04:59]
B
That's it. That's it.
- [05:02]
C
And I guess you've obviously talked about this as a palace. It's a huge complex now. It's a big, sturdy, secure building which also lends itself to being a prison.
- [05:11]
B
I guess that is. Right. And it doesn't take very long until that starts happening. I'm going to be so real with you. So, for example, one of the very first big arrests that we have is actually of someone who falls out of favor with the royal family, which is what you would expect because. Yeah, okay, it is a prison, but for a nice one, that's kind of nice. Like, especially if we're talking about, like, the 11th century. Right. So we tend to see more royal visitors who come along. And the first big one is a guy called Ronald Flambard, which is a funky name. Name alert. Cool name. Absolute name alert. And he was really, really tight with William ii. So that's all well and good. Very nice.
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D
We.
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B
We love to simply be friends with William II until he dies.
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C
It's a bit of a red flag, isn't it, to be friends with William ii?
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B
Yeah. Because that doesn't go so well, does it? So as a result of that, my boy gets thrown into prison because basically, people don't think that he's trustworthy. Right.
- [06:11]
C
I mean, Ranulph's a churchman as well, isn't he? When William doesn't have a very good relationship with the Church. So he's a churchman who likes William ii. When William II is disliked by the Church.
- [06:20]
D
Do you know what?
- [06:21]
B
Like, everybody hates a player, you know? So he really understands the way that politics of the Church work. And. Yeah. So basically, what he comes up against is the fact that Henry I comes in and he's really trying to put a crackdown on what are seen as, like, the excesses of his brother's reign, or lack thereof, as it were, and he gets thrown into the tower. And so this is one of those things where, you know, it's kind of like, world's tiniest violin. Oh, are you imprisoned in the castle? But that's also what we would expect to see whenever you get these kind of things, you know, if you were captured in war, if you're a prince or something, when the people say, oh, and then he was under arrest, they're usually not necessarily struggling. They're just in a castle somewhere. But fundamentally, to be honest, he is in a dungeon. That's a technical term.
- [07:10]
C
Yeah. And this is one of my favorite. York Handstone is my development of the Word donjon.
- [07:16]
B
Right into dungeon.
- [07:17]
C
So, you know, French Don Johnson usually meant the tower, the keep at the middle of a castle, the safest place in the middle, the place where the lord would live, where he'd keep all his valuable things, things that are worth protecting. And somehow that morphs over the centuries to become dungeon, which is associated much more with prison. And then it moves into the slimy, wet undergroundness that we enjoy in the gone medieval dungeon.
- [07:40]
B
Exactly. You know, well, we like to have a bit of atmosphere, don't we?
- [07:43]
C
But, you know, our boy 11th century dungeon, they would mean this pointing up in the air.
- [07:48]
B
And I think that this really comes out when you learn more about our boy Ranulph.
- [07:52]
D
Right.
- [07:52]
B
Because the thing about him is he's not just imprisoned in here, but he has a nice little escape attempt as well, which is like one of the most fun. Like, I mean, honestly, Hollywood, please make a movie about this. But Odoric Vitalik writes about this. He's got a big dramatic escape in February 1101, and he does it thusly, it is alleged. He has a barrel of wine brought in, like you do when you're a prisoner, as old prisoners do, you know, just a normal time for a prisoner. And in the barrel of wine, he's hidden a rope. And he proceeds to get his guards just blinding drunk. He's just like, who wants wine? Wine, More wine, Wine tonight.
- [08:30]
C
King.
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B
And then after they all pass out drunk, he takes the rope and scales out of the White Tower and honestly, work.
- [08:39]
C
It seems like the simplest of daft plans, but I suppose a thousand years ago, the first prisoner in the White Tower, no one's tried it before. Why not give it a go?
- [08:48]
B
And that's the thing, you would think, oh, he's in the middle of the central keep. He's surrounded by these big wal walls. We've got the river on one side. Where is he going to go? And the answer is, I mean, literally out the window, I guess. So we all learned a thing or two.
- [09:00]
C
It's an illustrious start to the Tower's life as a prison, isn't it? The very first recorded prisoner that we have here is what is arrested in August 1100, February 1101, just as spring is coming and it's starting to warm up. You know, keep inside for the. The cold winter. Yeah, get to February. Spring's on its way. Have a barrel of wine, get everyone drunk, leg it out the window and off across to the continent and start causing trouble.
- [09:22]
B
Do you know what? They don't make them like that anymore. No, honestly, it's a beautiful tradition, but, you know, that is a really fun one. But to be honest, we get a lot of other big names who get imprisoned in here over the years as well. And one of them, this is a favorite of both you and me, our boy, Roger Mortimer.
- [09:42]
C
Yeah. Who we spent a fair bit of time talking about when we did our kind of Edward II special series. He is a really, really interesting character. But, yeah. And the second prisoner that we're gonna talk about who also escapes from the town.
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D
It does.
- [09:55]
B
It's just like. So, I mean, I'm like, they're not. The track record isn't great. It's like the minute you've got a big name, but also, that kind of tracks, because if you've got a big name, maybe you're treating them kind of well. You're letting them be in the nice apartments. And, you know, what you're kind of saying is, you know, you're a big name, you're a noble person, you have some repute. We can't just throw you in manacles in the crypt. It's got to be nice things for you.
- [10:19]
C
And it really does play against our idea, that notion that we inherit quite often from Hollywood and things like that, that medieval dungeons are, like, manacled to the wall, underground, dripping water, closed gates, bars everywhere for prisoners like Ranulph. And for Roger Mortimer, that's not what prison really was.
- [10:37]
B
So the thing is, when Ranulph gets out, you can kind of understand it. He's one of the first ever prisoners, really. His major crime is being friends with the wrong people. The thing about Roger is that he's actually in for real crimes. Like, my man is in here. He's actually convicted of treason. He was cementing rebellion against Edward ii. And I mean, let's be so honest, there's many such cases. But he's thrown in here. We got a double Roger situation. Okay, it's him and it's his uncle, who is another Roger.
- [11:06]
C
Roger and his uncle Roger.
- [11:07]
B
You know, fair enough. There was only five names in the 14th century. I don't know what to tell you. So we had to share them out. Right. So they are both convicted of treason. And now, stop me if you heard this one, but they have a bit of an escape that involves wine.
- [11:23]
C
Oh, no. I guess an original story.
- [11:25]
B
I know, right? It's like, come on, Roger. Now, what I will say of Roger, instead of just, you know, putting a rope in some wine, which, like, let's be honest, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. He poisons some wine instead. But again, you know, he has this barrel of wine brought in, as one does, and he actually makes people ill. He drugs them. They kind of pass out and fall asleep. And so then while they are passed out, he gets through the kitchens, uses a rope ladder, because we have, you know, it's 300 years later. Come on.
- [11:57]
C
We've had so much fun driving a rope.
- [11:59]
B
We've got a rope ladder now, so that's fantastic. And so they use that to get out and they get into a boat that's waiting for them in the river. So it's actually pretty well timed out. It's very daring.
- [12:09]
C
Yeah. And he's got the deputy consul of the tower in on this as well, so he's getting. Getting some inside help. So Roger's. Roger's laid some groundwork for this.
- [12:16]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Like, this is clearly a plan. And I think that at the very least, what it shows us is how many people were dissatisfied with Edward II's rule. Because if you're able to turn people who are inside the tower, and you know, those are people who are going to be scrutinized really heavily, you're able to arrange for boats to come up and save you. That means there are a lot of people who are willing to associate with someone who's been convicted of treason. And so very clearly we see already that Edward the II's popularity is on the wane. At the very least.
- [12:48]
C
I guess it's a really damning indictment of Edward II's regime by this point. That people are willing to help someone convicted of treason to escape from his custody.
- [12:57]
B
Absolutely. I mean, it shows us just how unpopular he was. These are people who are risking death, they're risking torture, and so it really means something to them. I mean, yeah, I'm sure there's money in it for them as well. Like, you don't be getting nice shipments of wine in the tower because you're broke. We'll just say that.
- [13:13]
C
Yeah, but it's got. But it's got to work for you to get the rewards. You've got to be all in on helping this person escape.
- [13:19]
B
Yeah. You know, you've got to think that, like, maybe I'm going to live through this, maybe I'm going to be protected in order for money to be in anything. So, yeah, Edward II continues to be unpopular. Shock, horror.
- [13:30]
C
Yeah, Well, I mean, I guess we've had two examples of the tower being a rubbish prison, but maybe we could go inside and think a bit about some People who weren't quite so lucky.
- [13:42]
B
Sounds good.
- [13:43]
C
Just gonna have a wonder inside. Okay, so we've come to. I mean, where better to talk about the tower being used as a prisoner? Something with the sign over the door saying Bloody Tower.
- [14:00]
B
That's right. You know, which is what it was named originally.
- [14:03]
C
Yeah. No, stop. Don't start with this before we get in. So medieval. This is the Garden Tower.
- [14:10]
B
That is right. That is right.
- [14:11]
C
Which doesn't sound anywhere near as sinister as the Bloody Tower.
- [14:15]
B
Oh, quite right too, you know, and it was built in 1225 because the older, you know, White tower was seen as, you know, a bit out of date. It had been 200 years. They want nicer apartments for royal visitors. But then eventually that turns into a dungeon to.
- [14:30]
C
Well, let's go in and find out about its life as a dungeon.
- [14:32]
B
I love this door.
- [14:34]
C
It's gorgeous, isn't it?
- [14:35]
D
The studs on the door and that's.
- [14:37]
B
Got to be at least 8ft tall. That's a door. They don't make them like that anymore, baby.
- [14:43]
C
Like a nice portcullis in here as well.
- [14:45]
B
Oh, mad for a portcullis, me. I always like to see big wooden, medieval edifices like this because of how long they have stood the test of time and how many people's hands were involved in making them. Which is, you know, a rather romantic thing to talk about before we talk about all the people imprisoned here. We've got big, beautiful portcullis. But I feel like that contrasts a lot with tiny little spiral staircase just beyond.
- [15:22]
C
Yeah. And if we came in through an eight foot door, you and I are going to have to both dock under this one. And then we get one of these really tight spiral staircases. It's getting a bit more foreboding.
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B
Incredible. So we've got this very tight Gothic pointed arch. So, you know, you're in a 13th.
- [15:39]
C
Century building now and I'm already seeing iron bars on windows.
- [15:42]
B
Oh, that's a good look.
- [15:44]
C
We're definitely in prison now.
- [15:45]
B
This is certainly a single file staircase. I think we would have to say that.
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D
Yeah.
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C
This is not. This is not what we would think of as comfort, is it?
- [15:54]
B
No, absolutely not. And that's the thing where you really begin to see how there are different parts of the tower for different reasons, aren't there?
- [16:04]
D
Yeah.
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C
Oh, look at this.
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B
Oh, wow. Okay, so we've come out now to more of a hallway on top of the spiral staircase. And it's a little bit creepy. I think we could say it that fairly. We both have to duck in order to get into it. But it is lined with other rooms.
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C
It's atmospheric, isn't it? Especially down here in the dark.
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B
Yeah, I love that.
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C
For me, look at the light coming through this.
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B
Oh, wow.
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D
Yeah.
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B
But you come out into a larger room and this is probably more likely where the prisoners would be kept.
- [16:41]
D
Yeah.
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C
And again, not. Not at the dank cell that you might think of.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah. I mean, as far as London property goes, I mean.
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C
Yeah, let's think what the monthly rent.
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D
Would be on this.
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B
Yeah, it would be way, way, way too much, you know, but it is larger ceilings. You know, again, this is kind of matching more the outward door. I think that we are talking at least 15 foot ceilings. Nice bit of wood.
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C
Nice bit of wood. Nice windows with a good view.
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B
Yeah, good view. You can see the White Tower out of it and part of the Canstone. So this is really quite something. But I mean, I suppose if you are of royal extraction or noble extraction, let's be real, it's a bit of a comedown. Especially when you have been arrested and put in here.
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D
Yeah.
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C
I mean this is going to be the bare minimum you're expecting if you're a high status. Absolutely prisoner.
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B
And really, when we're talking about high status prisoners and we're talking about the Bloody Tower. Well, I'm afraid, Matt, this is really your patch because this is some wars of the Roses stuff. No.
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C
Yeah. I mean, the tower plays a really key role in so many moments of the wars of the Roses, doesn't it? I mean, for a start, you've got Henry vi, an actual king, imprisoned in his own palace after he's caught in. In 1465, brought here and imprisoned, you know, briefly during the re. Adeption, when he's put back on the throne, wheeled out, you know, shaved up, made to look vaguely like a still fitting king, doesn't do a great job of all of that and ends up back in here again, where he will ultimately meet his end.
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B
I mean, what that means, we don't know.
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C
No, I mean the, the Yorkist propaganda says that he dies of pure melancholy when he hears about the. The Battle of Tewkesbury and the death of his only son and heir and the capture of his wife Margaret, and that his health is so frail that he simply keels over and dies. Maybe.
- [18:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, I would think so. One of the things that we have to understand is that even though these apartments are. Are quite grand, one of the things that does tend to happen in dungeons is it does become a Little more easy to keel over and die in these circumstances, because especially if you're in a really heightened situation like the wars of the Roses, I mean, you're getting fed every day like it's a. But we are past barrel of wine time. You know, some lessons have been learned about the barrels of wine. I would just say that's. So you are on oftentimes more meager rations. I think we should also remember that in the premodern era, you know, before the 19th century, it's just a lot easier to die, you know, if getting a bad cold could be the end for you because there are no antibiotics, it is just much easier to become ill. So I don't necessarily believe that Henry VI dies because his heart is broken, but I can think that if you're in a melancholic position while you are imprisoned in a dungeon, it is just easier to not make it back, not rally.
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D
Yeah.
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B
If it gets a tricky one, isn't it?
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C
Because we know his health hasn't been great. He's had a couple of collapses, mental and physical collapses, so maybe this tips him over the edge. But it's also widely believed that Edward IV has him done in because his son and heir's gone now. He doesn't need Henry anymore. He's the last kind of real Lancastrian threat to Edward's throne. Wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to him?
- [19:59]
B
I mean, let's be so honest, that is a kind of it. It is not unusual that such things would happen. There's a political reason for why they might do that. And, you know, it's a lot like, for example, the end of Edward ii, where we don't exactly know, but when he is imprisoned, something happens there.
- [20:16]
D
Yeah.
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B
And you just have to, as a historian, become a little bit comfortable with never exactly knowing.
- [20:23]
D
Yeah.
- [20:23]
C
And I don't think there's any harm in saying, here's the possibilities. You know, as a historian, I might lean towards this one.
- [20:30]
B
I can't put which one you really.
- [20:34]
C
But we can never be 100 sure. I don't think there's any harm in saying we don't know for certain, but.
- [20:41]
B
I think it is, you know, that the mystery that surrounds it and that as one of the deaths, that gives this particular tower itself name as the Bloody Tower. You know, they didn't call the Bloody Tower when they built it. That would be a bad idea. I think it's going to say foreboding.
- [20:56]
C
Wouldn'T it, what we're going to build today.
- [20:58]
B
And you'll be in the Bloody Tower. Oh, lovely, lovely. That, you know, but basically that kind of starts a chain of events where, you know, certain mysterious things happen here.
- [21:08]
C
I mean, we, we often think of the, the darker reputation of the Tower, really starting in the Tudor era. But you can see it start under Edward iv, because Henry VI is not the only member of a royal family who dies within the tower during Edward IV's reign because his own brother does as well.
- [21:26]
B
Oops. You know, and that is the thing, is that it is difficult to put, to find a point on how much this family feuds. And we have also George die. And this is a very similar situation. Right. This is one of these things where we've got a political problem here in the wars of the Roses. Don't know if you've heard that one before, but, you know, like, this is the trouble with when family fights. So if you get any of the attendant, you know, hangers on, it doesn't have to be just the brothers. It's like, where are the uncles? Where do the cousins align? And when you get captured, you have to know that them's the breaks. You know, we don't always die on the battlefield. You know, things can go one way or the other. And yes, again, when we are involved in wars like this and we're incredibly important and we are innate person, we will expect to be put in a castle when we are captured. But sometimes that castle is the Tower of London.
- [22:24]
C
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, for George, you know, this is a story of several betrayals of his brother Edward iv efforts to take the throne for himself. You can argue about whether you think he's justified in some of the things he does, but nevertheless, he's convicted of treason in, in parliament. You know, his own brother, Edward iv tries him in parliament and, and Edward is acting for the prosecution here. There can't be too much doubt about what the outcome is going to be. But George is condemned to death and, and because of his status, so because of his rank as a duke and a brother of the king, he's entitled to a private execution within the Tower of London. And that means, again, there are things that, that we really don't know about his execution, but it does give birth to a really interesting legend.
- [23:09]
B
Ah, so George is one of the more interesting theoretical deaths in the Tower. Now, I'm going to be so real with you. I don't believe this story. Okay, like as always, let's begin the rounds of the stories that Matt and Eleanor don't believe. But it's a really good story. And so, yes, George is supposed to be executed, as you say. This is what happens when you have like, you know, trial for truth, reason. Right. And I would expect for this something like a beheading, you know, something that is. Is nice and fast, that is like what you get and is considered particularly humane. The story of George instead is that George ends up being drowned inside. Stop me if you've heard this one. A barrel of wine.
- [23:51]
C
The return of the barrel of wine.
- [23:52]
B
There are so many barrels of wine in here. You know, like, if you could be haunted by something in here, it is maybe the, you know, the ghost of Gout. But also, you know, because of my side interest in ghostly things, they do say that there are stories about like a kind of ghostly barrel that emanates voices. I don't believe that, but I like to say it.
- [24:11]
C
But it, it could be George's voice. That's what I hope in the ghostly barrel.
- [24:14]
B
You know, I like. And I'm just saying, like, yeah. And is it speaking Middle English? I doubt it. But anyway, I still like the story.
- [24:36]
E
We interrupt your regularly scheduled podcast with some breaking news. Millions of people are now playing the mobile puzzle game Royal Kingdom. This is not a drill. Royal Kingdom has thousands of levels and is incredibly fun. What's that? I'm hearing from my producer that it has no ads and it is completely free to download. What's next? You're gonna tell me it doesn't need wifi? This just in. Royal Kingdom doesn't need WI fi to play. We will continue to keep you updated as this story develops, but get it today and see for yourself. Download it on the Google Play or app store today.
- [25:08]
A
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- [26:09]
C
Yes, I mean, the sort of. The legend goes that George is allowed to choose his own method of execution and he opts to be drowned in a barrel of his brother's favorite Malmsey wine as a final kind of two fingers up to his brother Edward. And it's given a little bit of weight. So there's a portrait of a woman who is believed to be Margaret Pole, his daughter, and she wears a charm bracelet on her wrist and has a little barrel charm on there in the portrait. So this has been used to suggest that that's a reference to her, her dad's method of execution and that she's sort of carrying this charm to represent that. But again, because it's done in private, there is not a single record of how George was executed. But this is a story that springs up quite quickly and has definitely stuck. Maybe that's just because it's a good story.
- [26:52]
B
It's a really good story is the thing. I suppose the reason I don't tend to believe it is that drowning is not a good way to go. Now, being spiteful to your brother, always fashionable, we absolutely love it. And going down in a barrel of wine wouldn't be so bad. But just drowning isn't fun is all. I would say so, yeah. I wouldn't think that it would actually happen because if you really could choose the way that you were going to go, one of the most painful and drawn out is probably not what you would do even if you were petty. But. But we Stan. We Stan a petty guy, you know.
- [27:23]
D
What can I say?
- [27:24]
C
I can see George as someone who would cut his nose off. Despite his face, though.
- [27:26]
B
I mean, that is true. I mean, like, he is, he is one of those ones. Because it's very funny in terms of everyone that you talk about who is executed in the tower. I mean, be so real with you. George did that stuff, you know, so, you know, we got a lot of innocence, we got a lot of people who are, you know, on the wrong side of things and it just doesn't quite shake out how they want to. But George absolutely was doing some treason.
- [27:48]
C
Yeah, he definitely guilty. Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose there's not much longer that we can avoid standing here in the bloody Tower in this room that is the home of so much myth and legend. And it's nice and dark in here, so we can't read the information board over there that talks all about this. But I guess we're going to have to mention two little Boys. Yeah, probably maybe stayed in this room.
- [28:11]
B
Indeed. You know, and when we talk about the princes in the tower, we say the princess in the tower. That's what we call them. Right. They are in a joined group. And it is specifically referencing this building, you know, not just the Tower of London, but the Bloody Tower. And we do know they came in. We can say that. But it's the same problem that we have with George, isn't it? Because since they are royal and since they are kind of other under their uncle's care, you know, who knows what happened? And it's not that weird that there aren't records of it because, well, why would there necessarily be? And you can use that from either side of the equation if you want to. So people who want to say, you know what, Richard loves nephew killing, wake up in the morning, spot a nephew.
- [28:57]
C
Killing on his to do list, light.
- [28:59]
B
Breakfast, kill a nephew, meet with the secretaries, nephew death, you know, things of this nature. And now. So there are people who say, well, okay, well, obviously he just loves to kill nephews. That's why nothing is written down. But then there are people who say, well, he doesn't love to kill nephews.
- [29:13]
D
And that's what.
- [29:14]
B
Nothing is written down. Because, for example, when I'm babysitting my nephew, I don't go, didn't kill nephew. Like, that's just not something you would do. I know, right? It's like, that's right, everybody, send them over to Auntie Eleanor's house. It's gonna be fine. So it is one of those things where paper trails just simply don't exist in this period writ large. And also, it doesn't make sense to necessarily have a paper trail. And indeed, sometimes when there are paper trails, that in and of itself is incriminated.
- [29:45]
C
Yeah, yeah. And. And again, like you say, whatever you believe about what happened to the princes, the no paper trail makes sense any which way, because if Richard's killed them, he's not going to want to have that jotted down anywhere in particular. Although I would argue he's going to want people to know that the princes are dead. But that's maybe a discussion for another day.
- [30:02]
B
But.
- [30:03]
C
But if he's. If he's also hiding them and keeping them secure, but he doesn't want people to know where they are and use them as a threat against him. You don't have a paper trail for what's happened to the princes. So it's the same evidence that can mean different things depending on what you kind of already believe. But I Do always think, you know, we are quite possibly standing on the spots where a 12 year old and a 9 year old boy stood 500 years ago. And whatever happened to them, they're confused, they're scared. They've lost their dad, their mom has fled into sanctuary, their future has been turned upside down. Edward thought he was going to be king. He no longer is. His uncle Richard is going to be. So whether you think they were in physical danger or not, this is somewhere where they must have been together and pretty frightened.
- [30:51]
B
Yeah, you're experiencing an incredible level of turmoil for anyone, let alone a child, you know, a literal child. And that's not nothing. And I think it's something to keep our mind on when we consider dungeons because it's all well and good to talk about daring escapes and drowning in wine and you know, being kind of a messy, petty guy. And then children get thrown into the mix as well. And that is sobering, I would say, which we probably need after all the wine talk. But I would also shout out that one of the ghost legends of the dungeon is of course the princess has been alleged that they hang out around about the stairs that we just went up and down. Do I believe that? No, but I love it.
- [31:40]
C
I thoroughly enjoy the photographs that, that people share of children's faces in reflected in display cabinets all over the Tower of London, convinced that this is one of the Princeton Tower. There was definitely no small child in the building that day.
- [31:54]
B
I want you to know that if you ever see one of those photos online, tag me. I want to see it. I don't believe it, but I just want to see it.
- [32:02]
C
But we're going to be extra careful when they go back down those stairs though, just in case.
- [32:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. This will be the first documented ever sight of a princely ghost. And we're going to do it in an audio format.
- [32:14]
C
Can you imagine if it was me that saw it as well?
- [32:16]
B
It would be so bad for you.
- [32:19]
C
I don't want to see the ghost of the princess and the tower in here for many, many reasons.
- [32:37]
B
So back down the stairs of the bloody tower and I guess.
- [32:41]
C
And no ghosts.
- [32:42]
B
No ghosts, unfortunately. So this has been a complete waste of my time and yours, Matt, unless.
- [32:47]
C
Ie'S gonna pop us a little ghost in there somewhere.
- [32:49]
B
Okay. But I suppose one of the things to note here is we've been talking a lot and quite rightly about royal prisoners, noble prisoners, these really high profile people who, who have direct connections with the Crown. But there's all sorts of people who are held prisoner Here, and they tend to very expressly have been held here because they are political prisoners. So being brought to the Tower is a big and specific political display. This is a seat of royal power and a seat of royal power in London. So one of the things to kind of understand about the way crime works in the medieval period is you have these big over the top executions, you have these huge show trials. And one of the reasons that you have them is people don't get caught very often.
- [33:38]
A
Right?
- [33:39]
B
Like, let's. Let's keep in mind there's no such thing as, you know, the police force in the medieval period. There's no detective, right? Like, if you murder someone and, like, you know, they come upon the body three days later, there's no one going to be doing DNA analysis, right? So when they catch someone who's doing something wrong, they make a big thing of it and they will do a big public execution in order to warn everyone that they shouldn't do crime. Right now, the Tower is one step above that and they're saying, we're going to bring you here because you're doing political crimes. This is something that is directly affecting the Crown. And the Tower is the royal place that also has the most possible witnesses to an executioner at it. So one of the very famous political prisoners who's brought to the Tower is, of course, William Wallace, which is impossible to say without saying Walliam Wallace, Walliam Wallace, etc. And, you know, so this is the early 14th century and he was particularly involved in fighting against the English in the north, which was very much the style of the time in the 14th century. You know, the Scottish, you know, the Borderlands were just essentially a constant battle back and forth.
- [34:47]
C
And to be fair, to some extent, you can say that, Edward, I started it.
- [34:50]
B
Oh, yeah, I would definitely pick that fight absolutely, at this point. And, you know, fair enough to William Wallace, I think, you know, that that is his own country. You know, hat tip to the man. We have to say that please don't watch Braveheart and think it's a historical documentary. Everybody, that's just my word of warning. But he eventually gets captured and brought to the Tower and this is where he faces trial. And so that's a big thing. You can bring a lot of people in to watch the trial. And this is one, we've got great notes on that trial, right? Everybody wants to know about William Wallace's trial because he is a foreign agitator who is threatening the crowd and then when he's executed, he's paraded through the streets of London to the execution ground. Now, which execution ground, we technically don't know. It is either Smithfield or the Tyburn, but the wording that is used to write that down is very similar in both cases. We've kind of come down on the side of saying it's Smithfield now, but there's no way of actually knowing. Then he is hung, drawn and quartered and then his head is displayed on London Bridge, which is again, very much the style at the time, many such cases. So it's a really gruesome end. And once again we have this individual who, even if he isn't necessarily killed here, he's experiencing probably one of the most harrowing things that anyone ever kept.
- [36:08]
C
And this is again playing into the Tower's central role as both royal palace and prison. That Edward I is using the Tower because he wants everyone to see what he's doing. He wants everyone to see what happens to someone like Wallace who dares to challenge him. And this is the best place to do that.
- [36:24]
B
Absolutely. You know, Londoners are going to know what is happening and there's rather a lot of them. It is the second largest city in Europe at the time. This is where you bring a prisoner if you want everyone to know that the royal justice has weight, that going against the King means something.
- [36:41]
C
And then, as we mentioned, you know, the Tower gets this much darker reputation into the Tudor era. And one of my favorite bits of trivia about the Tower is its longest serving prisoner, and this is a man named William de la Pole, who is a nephew of Edward IV and Richard iii who we talked about earlier. So his family begin to cause trouble for the Tudors in the early 16th century for Henry VII and then for Henry VIII too. And when the de la Poles begin to cause trouble, the two eldest brothers, Edmund and Richard, flee to the continent and they kind of leave William, their brother, behind, which doesn't do William any favors because he's put in prison here in the tower in 1502 and he dies here in 1539. So this guy spends 37 years as a prisoner in the Tower of London and we're told that he tries to take his own life on several occasions and, and never manages to, to actually do it. So he's clearly really, really struggling with being here because however comfortable it might be, 37 years of your freedom being restricted, even if you're in the comfortable apartments of the Tower of London is nobody's idea of fun, is it?
- [37:55]
B
No, absolutely. I'm sure that you would just be absolutely climbing the walls by that point in time. And I think, especially if you are in this religious era where the idea of taking one's own life also means going to hell, that really means something by the time people are driven to that level of extremists.
- [38:14]
D
Yeah.
- [38:14]
C
So just a way to throw in how awful the Tudors are, really.
- [38:17]
B
Yeah, that's right. They're worse than any medieval people could ever be.
- [38:36]
E
We interrupt your regularly scheduled podcast with some breaking news. Millions of people are now playing the mobile puzzle game Royal Kingdom. This is not a drill. Royal Kingdom has thousands of levels and is incredibly fun. What's that? I'm hearing from my producer that it has no ads and it is completely free to download. What's next? You're gonna tell me it doesn't need wi fi? This just in. Royal Kingdom doesn't need. Need WI fi to play. We will continue to keep you updated as this story develops, but get it today and see for yourself. Download it on the Google Play or App Store today.
- [39:24]
C
So before we. We head out to outside and we meet our special guest for this episode, if you could save one prisoner who died at the tower or was imprisoned at the tower, who would you save?
- [39:37]
B
Only one.
- [39:38]
C
Only one.
- [39:38]
B
Only one. Okay, so the princes are out, but then I would just be looking and I'd be like, are you here? Can I be cheesy and go, Anne Boleyn.
- [39:47]
D
Yeah.
- [39:47]
B
Oh, it's like, oh, now it's illegal for women to have hobbies. Okay. Right. Like, you know, she really did nothing wrong. And I think it is. It is just a real shame what happened to her. And also, it sets a precedent by which Henry VIII is like, I just kill women when I get bored. And that is extremely gross. So shout out. Anne, you were cool as hell.
- [40:10]
C
I think I would go see. I'm quite tempted by several of the. The kind of Catholic priests who are tortured here during Elizabeth I's reign and try to escape desperately, who are obviously just suffering horrendously for their faith, which seems so crazy to us now. But I'm saying if I was going to save one prisoner, it might just be Henry vi.
- [40:35]
B
Oh.
- [40:36]
C
Only because I think this is a guy who is imprisoned and dies when he. What's his crime, really? Yeah, he's not great at the job that he was forced to do that he didn't really want to do. And it seems quite unfair to me that he ends up spending, you know, years in prison here and will ultimately die here, whether whether it's murder or. Or his end is brought about by ill health. I don't know. But I think. Yeah, he just strikes me as quite a tragic case in that if we've talked about people who've committed treason, who've been convicted in court of all sorts of different things and he's really done nothing.
- [41:10]
B
Yeah, I mean that's a really good point. I also have like a controversial answer to this. Let the elephant go. What's going on? Why is there an elephant in the tower right now? I don't like this menagerie situation. Like, it's one thing when it's humans, they kind of like understand what's going on. I don't think you should have a bear in the Tower of I don't think you should have a polar bear in the Tower. Fishing in the Thames, I mean, which we love the fishing in the Thames story. Two thumbs up. But let those guys go. Come on, man. That's not very nice. Free the elephant. Right, lovely.
- [41:42]
C
Should we head outside and go and see if we can find our special guest, Tom?
- [41:45]
B
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [41:49]
C
Yeah. Duck under this doorway.
- [41:51]
B
I know every single one of these doors except the main one I have to duck through. It's my special tall person tip for medieval buildings is put your hand on the top of the dark door and then you won't bump your head.
- [42:12]
C
Okay. So we've established that the Tower has had its fair share of prisoners over the centuries and some that had been here for so long that you might consider them residents. But it's easy to forget that the Tower has always also been packed with genuine residents, people who lived here. And we've managed to to drag one former resident of the Tower along to meet us. It's great to have you here with us, comedian Tom Horton.
- [42:36]
D
Thank you for having me. I would not say dragged. I came very willingly. It's been three years since I came here and it's nice to come back and reminisce about the place. It's like seeing an old girlfriend in house form. Castle form. Castle form.
- [42:50]
C
Maybe we shouldn't discuss you at girlfriend. So I mean, let's get to it. How did you end up living at the Tower of London?
- [42:58]
D
Well, I should first definitely say it was through no merit of my own whatsoever. My father is the former chief of defence staff, so the ex professional head of the entire British armed forces. He's a. Well, at the time he was a general. Horton. He's just been made a field marshal actually. So I've got to get it's title. Keeps on changing it's completely unfair.
- [43:19]
C
You've already written your Christmas cards.
- [43:20]
D
It's a nice. Yeah, I know. Lots of red ink. Just crossing it out.
- [43:23]
C
Field Marshal Dad.
- [43:24]
D
Exactly. And so when he retired as Chief of Defence Staff, the Queen at the time appointed him the Constable of the Tower of London. We were just quite lucky that the position, which is a ceremonial position, was changing over. It changes every five years. And so he said, yes, please. And then at the time, I was in a comedy group down in Brighton and I just decided to go solo on my own. I was moving up to London and so I was met with a choice of either renting, you know, a shoebox in Zone 6 for £3,000amonth, or I could live in the historical palace for free with my father. And I was like, I think I'll do that one.
- [44:07]
C
Yeah, I can imagine you thought about that for quite a while.
- [44:10]
D
It was pretty instant.
- [44:14]
C
So whereabouts in the Tower did you actually live?
- [44:16]
D
Where was your bedroom? So there, there's actually. Because there's lots of houses and most of them are embedded in the walls and the inner outer walls. But we were very lucky that the Constable's position got. It got changed, actually to Queen's House. So that was the Governor's House just before we moved in, but they changed it over so that we moved into Queen's House, which is the old Tudor building built in 1540. The idea is it was by Henry VIII, not himself, he outsourced it, but for Anne Boleyn. But it was probably not. It was probably just for the Constable at the time. It's now called King's House, of course, because the Queen, God rest her soul, but it was Queen's House when we were there. And it's an amazing building. It's got the room that Guy Fawkes was interrogated in, it's got the Thomas Moore crypt, the bell tower that's housed many of famous people's prisoners, and my bedroom, which was a prison cell itself that I think I remember one of my friends came around my house and he went, this is amazing. More people have died in your house than Harold Shipments. I was like, that's. That's a. That's a cheery thing to say. That'll make me sleep well at night.
- [45:23]
C
Yeah, yeah, creepy. Do you know any prisons that were kept in your bedroom there?
- [45:28]
D
I do, yes.
- [45:29]
C
Me personally, obviously.
- [45:30]
D
But you know, no, no, no, not on speaking terms. So the bell tower next to my bedroom is the more famous one for Elizabeth I, Lady Jane Gray, Rudolph Hess. And it's got Hitler's toilet in there as well. Don't know about that. No. So, well, just. This is a quick detour on the question. But During World War II, the plan was if we ever caught Hitler, we were going to keep them in the Tower of London. That was Churchill's plan. So they installed a toilet for Hitler to use. Obviously, we never caught him because he took his own life. But the toilet still remains. It's not functioning. I found that out the hard way. No, I'm trying to. No, I didn't. The one that certainly is said to haunt my bedroom was Arabella Stewart. I don't know how much you know about Arabella Stewart. So she was a young lady who was imprisoned for the crime of marrying the wrong person. She married the person she loved rather than, I think it was Henry viii, the one that he wanted her to marry. So her and her husband got locked up in. Well, she got locked up in my bedroom, he got locked up somewhere else.
- [46:36]
C
Not when you were there, though.
- [46:38]
D
No.
- [46:39]
C
Well.
- [46:39]
D
So. Well, I can tell you the ghost story, if you'd like.
- [46:42]
C
I mean, I was going to ask, you know, there are so many ghosts associated with the Tower. You spent so much time here.
- [46:48]
D
Yeah. Can you report in ghosts? So the way it goes is that this is my closest source of spookiness. I arrived in my bedroom and Arabella Stewart and her husband, they actually made an escape from the Tower of London and tried to flee to France. She was caught over the Channel and he had managed to escape. So she was brought back to the Tower and put back in my bedroom. Well, put in the cell. And she then went on a hunger strike and refused to eat or drink because she was so heartbroken. And she eventually got very ill, was throwing up green bile, didn't eat and died in a broken heart. In my, in the cell, when I moved into the bedroom, there is a picture of Arabelle Stewart on the wall and it's one of those ones that's got the eyes that follow you around. And I was thinking, well, my bedroom is gonna, you know, hopefully be, you.
- [47:47]
C
Know.
- [47:49]
D
Having someone else in at some point. So I, I, I don't. That's a bit of a mood killer. So I took the post, I took the painting down. I then became really ill and started vomiting green bile and couldn't eat or drink. And it was only when I put the painting back up that I got better. And so in many ways, I think that was her ghost who was not wanting me to find love, as she couldn't either.
- [48:16]
C
She was there to be internal buzz.
- [48:18]
D
Medieval cop block is what I was going for. But you saw.
- [48:22]
C
So Eleanor and I have been here this evening after hours when the tower's closed and it's dark, there's no tourists and it's quite, it's a different place to be when it's like that, isn't it? I mean what's it like coming back.
- [48:35]
D
Here after a night out and just jingling the keys in the door? Well, firstly, I didn't have keys because you don't need them. There's two, there's two massive big.
- [48:45]
C
Those are the people that do that job.
- [48:47]
D
Well, yeah, I mean in the daytime there's a queen's guard who stood outside my door speak with a gun. So, so that was fine. And then later night.
- [48:54]
C
You're never going to get a woman in there, are you? Well, and Sarabella Stewart in there, a.
- [48:58]
D
Man with a gun outside. Well, I'm not gonna lie, I, I, if I ever did get lucky on a night out, I had to bring the girl back and she had to sign in in a guest book. So the beef eaters do have a complete, a whole list of all my conquests over the five years I was here. It's about, it's about half page and. But yet joking aside, I think when you get in the place, especially at night time when there's not the thousands of tourists that are normally walking around, you just sort of sit in silence. And the history and the magnitude of the place really does affect you. I think it's, it's probably the epicenter of England of where it all began. And every strand of history has been threaded through here and so you can't not be overwhelmed. And with the white tower standing up and then you can see the crown jewels just over the way the place they had the beheadings. You can hear the ravens. Yeah, I mean you can't not be taken work.
- [50:01]
C
It must make it difficult to go looking for other houses when you eventually have to be there. Yeah, just disappeared as spacious with my on guard.
- [50:10]
D
I mean Scott the estate agent had a pretty rough, rough follow on, didn't he? So Tom, you're looking for a house. I hear your last one had a moat and there it did. Actually, what I realized living here, it was not a normal thing. It was just a massive privilege and I shouldn't ever think anything, but I am exceptionally lucky to be able to, to experience it. And so do not get used to it, do not take it for granted.
- [50:41]
C
Yeah, I must have been a fabulous experience just before we finish. We've touched on your closest experience with a ghost. But is it, is that something that people who live here talk about a lot? Do people tell ghost stories?
- [50:53]
D
I mean, I wouldn't say that all the, all the urban warder are huddled around the campfire with marshmallows trying to freak each other out. That was the image I was looking for. But if you. I don't know if you've been lucky enough to go into the. The keys part. No, we wanted to go in. We want to go in the key. So that's. I, I managed to. Lucky enough to be able to go there most times. And when I arrived, it was £1 50 a pint, cash. It was the cheapest pint in London by far. And you get the, you get, you get the, the beef eaters and the Queen's Guard drunk. And now I think they all have their superstitions of the various figures and animals that haunt the place. Let's not forget that, because the place was also a menagerie. There's a ghost bear. It was one of the most recent ghosts.
- [51:34]
C
Elizabeth, how a ghost is it?
- [51:36]
D
Yeah, yeah, England, we do bears. It's either Paddington or ghost Tor Bear. There's no in between. It's like it's marmalade sandwiches or death.
- [51:44]
C
Yeah. I mean, it must have been an incredible experience to be able to call somewhere like, like this home. And I mean, do you miss living here? Is it nice coming back?
- [51:53]
D
I think in a way I miss the community around here is actually what I miss the most because there are 130 people. At the time I lived here, living here. And so it's like a small village inside the heart of London where. And you've, you've walked around. Besides the helicopters, it's quite, it's quiet, it's very tranquil. And so that sort of neighborly vibe that you get of all the people living here and what make it, what keep the, the stories alive, that's what I miss the most.
- [52:27]
C
Did you get much of a sense of connection to the centuries of other people who have called this place home.
- [52:33]
D
Who have lived and worked here? Yeah, I think so. I mean, people come and go quite often. I mean, even as an outfit, the Yeoman Waters, they exchange. There's a turnover right now and then. I mean, I think when I first started there was only the first ever female beefeater, Moira. And then by the time I left, there was three or four. So you can. It sort of reminds you also things like that, you know, when I When I arrived, the. The moat was barren and when it. When I left under my father's position, they'd put the super bloom in and the flowers are suddenly there. And that was the second time it had been properly changed since the Duke of Wellington drained it. And so I think you always get reminded that history isn't just in the past. It's a constant thing that keeps on going.
- [53:25]
C
Yeah.
- [53:26]
B
Surrounding you.
- [53:27]
C
I don't mean nowhere else is it surrounding you.
- [53:28]
D
Quite my idea. Right now. There's nowhere like the Tower of London. I did him. I've done many stately homes and castle tours on. I did a podcast one time and nothing quite lives up to this. The magnitude and how important this place is.
- [53:48]
C
Does it give you much material for a comedy reading?
- [53:50]
D
Oh, I have dined off this for many, many years. Yeah. I mean, obviously when I was leaving my comedy group as a young comedian, you're looking for your USP or unique selling point. And my girlfriend at the time's like, well, you could probably talk about living in the most famous historical castle in the world. Like, yeah, that'll probably do. So I did a lot of material on that. And even actually, my latest show that I'm on tour at the moment, I do a routine about how I accidentally flooded the Queen's house while trying to make veggie burgers and eating them in the bath. If you want to hear that story, you'll have to come and see me on tour.
- [54:27]
C
Well, I think we definitely do want to hear that story, so we'll have to look out tickets for this. Talking of your tour, if people wants to come and listen to flooding the Queen's house while you're in the back of veggie burgers, where can they come and find you?
- [54:40]
D
So my tour will. Will still be doing the UK and Ireland, various dates, including one in London at the Leicester Square Theatre. Then I'm doing, I think, six countries across Europe, and then I'm doing the Adelaide Fringe in Australia. And then I'm hopefully going to be doing New York and LA as well for America.
- [55:00]
C
Oh, wow.
- [55:01]
D
Fantastic. But watch this space. I'morable Tom on social media.
- [55:05]
C
There you go.
- [55:05]
D
Wherever you are in the world, you can find Tom and grab a ticket for his gig, please.
- [55:14]
C
The Tower of London represented a fierce authority. From the very moment that it was built by William the Conqueror, almost a thousand years ago, it spread fear to.
- [55:24]
B
Everyone who could see it. It's a site of refuge, yes, but also of imprisonment and political executions.
- [55:31]
C
And it's a constant presence in England's power struggles throughout the centuries, from the Norman Conquest to the late Plantagenet kings.
- [55:38]
B
By the end of the medieval era, the Tower had evolved from a fortress to an elite prison, one which the Tudors made pretty good use of.
- [55:50]
C
If you want to find out more about that, then I definitely recommend popping over to our sister podcast, Not Just the Tudors with Susanna Lipscomb and having a dive through their back catalogue. Well, I hope you've enjoyed these two episodes on location at the Tower of London. Thank you to Historic Royal Palaces for having us. You can catch the last episode in which Eleanor delved into the Tower's role as a royal palace, wherever you get your podcasts from and see how this magnificent building has spent almost a thousand and years balancing critical but very different roles. There are new installments of God Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back to join Elena and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and all of History Hit's podcasts ad free. Head to historyhit.com subscribe right now. Go on, you know you want to. Anyway, there's a real reason that we came here, Elena. It was to bust you out. And I can hear the sirens wailing through the London street, so we better get out of here right now. Let's go.
- [56:58]
B
Where's my wine?