Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:01]
A
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
- [00:03]
B
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega, and we're.
- [00:05]
A
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
- [00:08]
B
If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit.
- [00:14]
A
With the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original.
- [00:20]
B
Documentaries, such as my new series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans, or my.
- [00:25]
A
Recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
- [00:29]
B
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
- [00:32]
A
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show notes for this episode.
- [00:49]
B
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got.
- [01:30]
C
When people hear the term crusader, it's most likely that it conjures up images of dashing Norman soldiers charging about on fine horses in full armor. But in reality, all sorts of people headed to the Holy Land to fulfill what they saw as a spiritual mission. One group in particular that is often overlooked is the women who headed east. And by that I don't just mean Eleanor of Aquitaine at the head of.
- [02:02]
B
Her own troops, though I do of.
- [02:03]
C
Course mean her as well. But the legions of women who cooked food, washed clothes, mended garments, and even provided sexual services for their fellow crusaders. A while ago, I spoke with Dr. Natasha Hodgson, the author of Women Crusading and the Holy Land in Historical Narrative, and it was such an amazing conversation that we thought these lazy summer days were the perfect time to revisit both it and the women who labored in the desert heat to answer a religious calling.
- [02:35]
B
First of all, Natasha, thank you so much for coming.
- [02:38]
D
Yeah, it's really nice to be invited, so thank you.
- [02:41]
B
So this is a topic near and dear to my heart because I think that a lot of time when we consider the Crusades, we think that it's a bunch of guys being blokes and they're out there on their way to the Middle east, and it's kind of like a lads, lads, lads, but, you know, with religious overtones deal. But there's a lot of women who are also on Crusade as well, right?
- [03:02]
D
Absolutely. Yeah, they're definitely fewer women than men, but there are certainly women going right from the very first expedition. You're absolutely right. In the popular imagination, when people start to think about crusading, you know, they'll envision a knight on horseback with a red cross. You know, actually have a very particular image in their minds about what a crusader is. But actually, those kind of knights were the real minority on Crusade expeditions. You know, they were the real elite forces. And of course, they were supported by lots of different types of men. Archers, siege engineers, foot soldiers, all the rest of it. And a lot of women as well, who were performing other duties in the camps as they went along.
- [03:40]
B
So when we say women crusaders, are we sort of talking more about, you know, what you and I would call camp followers? The people who go along in the baggage train and, you know, make sure everyone gets fed? Or are we talking about women who kind of see themselves as engaged in fighting? Or is it a combination of everything?
- [03:59]
D
What I can say is there's definitely people of different social status and with different roles on the Crusades. And there are noble women who go along with their families, who go along with husbands, brothers, fathers, et cetera. And there are people who are kind of auxiliaries within the camp. I think the term camp followers is sometimes a bit of a blurry term, because sometimes there's the kind of perception that these are people often performing other services for armies. And they were certainly there, too. But I think there were certainly servant roles that women were performing in crusading armies. Things like, for example, holding markets, grinding corn, doing cooking, doing healthcare. We know, for example, of a physician who looked after King Louis IX when he was ill on Crusades. A female physician. So, yeah, there are lots of people performing different roles. I mean, the question of motivation, whether they see themselves as crusaders, is a pretty tricky one and quite an interesting one to explore.
- [05:00]
B
Well, okay, I'm sorry, but you can't just say something interesting like that and expect me to not pick it. So let's dive into that. Okay, let's say I meet a woman on the road to Antioch, and she's in there with the armies and everything. What are things that she's likely to say about herself? Now, I suppose there's a possibility of her saying that she's a crusader, but how else might she describe her situation?
- [05:22]
D
I think part of the blurring of the lines comes from this issue about what a crusade actually is, because we call these expeditions that suddenly started going out to the Latin east in the late 11th, early 12th century as a crusade, but they didn't actually have a word. Crusade. Crusade. Then, for people in the 12th century, they largely called it a pilgrimage. When you traveled to a holy place like Jerusalem or Rome or Santiago de Compostela, you were usually going as a pilgrim and you would go often for penance. So if you committed some kind of sin, and the thing about the Crusade was it offered full forgiveness for your sins. And this was a very attractive prospect to some people who didn't really have much opportunity to get that kind of carte blanche in their life. So if they were considered concerned about their salvation, crusading was a way of doing that. But it's very difficult to tell from the sources, especially the chronicle sources, about motivation, because they largely said, oh, God decided that everyone would go. And so they did. It's a tricky one to put your finger on. I mean, the main thing, I suppose, to point out is that the difference between a Crusade and a pilgrimage was that Crusaders were allowed to carry arms. They were allowed to take weapons with them, whereas pilgrims normally weren't. And because women didn't normally carry weapons, should we see them as just ordinary pilgrims who were traveling with Crusade armies, or would they have seen themselves as crusaders and involved in crusading activity? So you kind of have to look in a few other places to find out about how women perceived themselves in relation to the Crusades. And very often they were involved in things like memorialization of family members who'd been on Crusades. So they kind of showed their pride in their family members who'd been on Crusade before.
- [07:12]
B
And what are the sources for this, then? You say we have to look in non traditional places, I suppose we could say. And where do we look to find these women?
- [07:22]
D
You know, we have some really amazing historical chronicles and accounts of crusading activities, especially the first Crusade, largely because everybody was so amazed that they'd actually managed to capture Jerusalem that they all wanted to write about it straight away. So we do have these wonderful accounts which, you know, sort of mention women, women here and there, sometimes by individual names, but not very often. They sometimes just sort of say women did this in the camp. But we don't have much detail about individuals, so you've got to do quite a lot of piecing together of different types of records, like charter evidence and other contextual evidence, in order to find out more about the individual women that participated. So, for example, one of the reasons we know that Hadvid of Sheeni went on the First Crusade is that she and her husband, Dodo of Con Granville, went together and they came back together and they gave a thanksgiving gift to a monastery. And that kind of tells us, okay, you know, they both went on the crusade together, they came back together and they were thankful for their safe return and gave a gift to a monastery. So that's where things like charter evidence can be really useful to tell us more about the individuals that we can find out about.
- [08:34]
B
So I would imagine, given that these are the ways that we see a lot of women, we have a kind of stilted view of the women who go on crusade. And don't get me wrong, that's probably true in general of the medieval period because, you know, what survives to us is as a rule, things that are written by the incredibly wealthy or the incredibly powerful, the sort of people who are involved in high level things or who can pay someone to write something very nice about them, you know. So I would imagine that the records we have of crusading women skew towards the nobility or at least the wealthy.
- [09:06]
D
Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I mean, the majority of the women that we know about by name will be kind of fairly high level, elite women who are mentioned largely because they're traveling with important crusade leaders. Or so you could think about someone like Joanna of Sicily, for example, who goes with her brother, Richard the Lionheart. He kind of picks her up in Sicily on the way and uses her dower money to help finance the crusade. So, yeah, you know, he's making the best of it. But I think it's mostly elite women that we hear about. We do occasionally hear about some people of lower social status. So we know that they're there. I mean, definitely when they talk about women in the camp, women in servants roles, you know, there are women looking after livestock for the Crusaders. There are female prostitutes who are occasionally put aside from the army because they're worried about sin, that they might not be successful in their battles if they have women with them. So there are those kinds of activities as well. And then there are, as I say, healthcare roles, washerwomen. On the third Crusade, you have a load of washerwomen, apparently were the only women who were supposed to go on the crusade. They had to be washerwomen of good repute. Ambroise says that they were as good as monkeys for picking fleas. So. But obviously it's a very important job. You know, you need to keep your army clean and healthy.
- [10:25]
B
Also, it's a really terrible job, not.
- [10:27]
D
One that I would have particularly enjoyed.
- [10:29]
B
One of the first things that medieval people ask someone else to do if they can, is Washington. Like, I'M getting a woman. No, get her in here. I'm not doing it, you know, let alone a bunch of blokes were on crusade. I suppose that is very interesting to me though, because those are the women I'm most interested in oftentimes is these ordinary women who we don't actually get to see. So for me it's really lovely when we have a bit of a source that's like, oh yes, well, the washer women are allowed to be here. But that's also very interesting because there's this sort of negative space that is said by this as well. So it's like, okay, well who are the women who were there who weren't washer women, you know, and that's usually, as you say, sex workers. They are usually around the fringes of almost any activity in the medieval period. But cooks and things like that as well, I would have thought.
- [11:18]
D
Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well that, I mean, one of the interesting phenomenons that you get with crusading is popular crusades. And these are kind of movements which are slightly looked down on because they represent this kind of outpouring of popular piety which essentially means people of lower social status who are keen to go on crusades. And whether these are people who are migrating because their local circumstances are really bad or because they've been inspired by preaching campaigns, there are a few sort of specific ones. Like for example, with the so called Children's Crusade in 1212, which is made up of, you know, men and women of lower social status. And although you don't get a lot of individual women specifically referenced in the sources that relate to that. And of course these aren't women who would leave charters behind or anything else that you can necessarily get more information from. But you find that they are mention mentioned quite a lot. And the question there is whether they're being mentioned to kind of discredit the movement or whether there actually are large numbers of women involved. So there's those issues as well. But I think they were definitely present and inspired potentially by a message to get involved in these types of movements. And when you get into the 13th century, because people are traveling more by sea and it's more expensive, those types of people are struggling to make the journey out to the east in the same way that the more elite or paid for troops can.
- [12:44]
B
This is a really interesting point to me because I think that we even now get quite swayed by the sources. The way that I've heard people talk about the Children's Crusade, for example, like oh, and isn't that stupid? Weren't these people just incredibly silly? And part of that, I think really is down to the tone of the sources that we have around it, because ordinary people can't advocate for themselves.
- [13:06]
D
It is an issue, especially with these movements that, you know, these weren't the ones that were necessarily sanctioned by the Pope. He kind of didn't want these people to be involved in Crusader armies necessarily because they were seen to get in the way. They were using up supplies, they slowed everything down. So really they wanted fighting men of a certain age. But alongside that, with elite women, you get a recognition that, A, they can pay for troops, B, you know, they can perform important functions like negotiating marriage alliances and that kind of thing. They also are an important part of this political network that links the nobility that are settled out in Jerusalem and the so called Crusader states with the families back in the West. So there's a vested interest in keeping those people involved. And they're also the ones who are often actually paying for Crusades. They're raising money from family lands to pay for people to go.
- [14:03]
B
It's interesting that you should mention raising money and noblewomen because, you know, as you say, by the 13th century, when people are going by sea, we then have perhaps our most famous woman crusader show up. We'd be remiss if we didn't mention Eleanor of Aquitaine, I think. And now, granted, I'm biased and I like her, but she is really interesting because she's at the same time a quite typical noble crusader woman and someone who is not typical at all whatsoever and does some really unique things. But having said that, also our sources about her are quite, quite difficult to read at times. So shall we talk about Eleanor and unpack her a little?
- [14:47]
D
Yeah, it's hard to avoid Eleanor, isn't it? I mean, effectively, you know, she's involved in two Crusades. So she goes first of all, in the middle of the 12th century, she goes with, when she's married to the King of France, Louis vii. This is probably a Crusade expedition that's on the same scale as the First Crusade. It comes about because the city of Edessa has been destroyed by Zengi, and the county of Edessa, which was one of the first Crusader states established, is in dire straits. News of this gets back to the west and the Pope calls for a new Crusade. Louis is keen to go and he decides to take his wife Elena with him. And when she's there, you know, she has a retinue of her own knight. She's a huge landowner. She's got this enormous Duchy of Aquitaine at her beck and call. And, you know, the pair of them go together. It's a funny one, because you often have, like, a lot of information about Louis VII's motivation for going on Crusade. But very few people explore why Eleanor might have been interested in going. It's true that by that point, she hadn't produced a male heir for the throne and she'd only had one daughter thus far. So there may have been an element of her being alongside so that she could continue to fulfill her sort of familial duties. But she also performs some really interesting kind of diplomatic functions on that crusade. So when they're in Constantinople, for example, she exchanges letters with the Byzantine empress. So she has this diplomatic element to her. I mean, we get sort of reports in some Byzantine sources of a woman who was, you know, dressed as a warrior, as an Amazon woman in armor, on horseback. It's probably not Eleanor that the guy is referring to, but lots of people like to repeat this myth of her, you know, traveling as, you know, in full armour. But she, you know, she goes to Constantinople and then the real sort of trouble, I think, happens when she gets to Antioch. And that's where it all goes a bit difficult in the sources, because she is related to the current Prince of Antioch when the Crusaders arrive there and they have just been through a really awful battle where they've lost a lot of their army. Louis had to put his army under the control of the Templars in order to try and get everybody back together and sort it out. So this is the Battle of Mount Cadmus, and then they end up in Antioch, and Eleanor's uncle is the prince there. And at the time, he really wants support from the Crusade in northern Syria to help support his own ends. So he's really keen to get Louis onside and get his army to come and fight for him and help secure the Principality of Antioch. But Louis is not so keen to do this. You know, he's gone on a crusade in order to get to Jerusalem and fulfil his vows, and he's not keen basically, to sort of help Eleanor's uncle out. But it seems like Eleanor was putting a lot of pressure on, and this is then misconstrued or possibly accurately construed by some of the chroniclers as turning into an affair between Eleanor and Raymond. So there's this suggestion that she ends up in a sexual relationship with her uncle and. But in sort of normal court functions, if you want to get the king's ear, you approach the queen, and that's the normal way to go about it. So whether this is misconstrued or whether there are other arguments going on, we're told by the chroniclers that Louis says, you know, no, I'm not doing it. Come with me. You're off to Jerusalem. And this causes a huge spat between Louis and Eleanor, which a few years later, they end up getting divorced. And how far this action is a reason for the divorce is open to question. So did they do it or didn't they? I don't know. I think this was normal politics. And I think that when Louis refused to help Eleanor's uncle after she'd, you know, been interceding on his behalf, she was particularly upset and annoyed. I mean, we do know that after the Crusade is completed and there's a failed siege at Damascus, Louis and Eleanor come back home and they reconcile. They go via the Pope in Rome. He even gets them back into the marital bed, which results in another daughter. So they do reconcile after the Crusade, but then a few years later, they're divorced. So.
- [18:53]
B
Well, we've all had really difficult holidays with our partners.
- [18:56]
D
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:22]
B
Now, I'm quite interested in the sources surrounding the Battle of Mount Cadmus and things like that as well, because the way they talk about Eleanor, and some of them really like to squarely put the blame on her for this disaster, saying, oh, her baggage train was too big. She's just such a silly woman, and was carrying all of her dresses, and then that slowed people down, and she didn't pay attention, and she rode off and left the other people. And that's how, you know, it's a very gendered way of talking about the differences between men and women here. And also it's this great way of just saying, oh, yeah, well, you know, something went wrong. Probably the woman's fault.
- [20:02]
D
Yeah, absolutely. So the story about the baggage train, I mean, really, that comes from a couple of different sources, but certainly it's Geoffrey of Ranson, who is one of Eleanor's vassals, who is blamed for going ahead with the vanguard when he was supposed to wait for everybody else. It's because they're kind of strung out across the mountain that they're easy pickings then for the Turks to attack. But to be fair, so many myths and legends have accumulated about Elena over time, and one of the most frustrating things about her is that she didn't necessarily leave her own record of events. You know, she never told her own story. We don't have a Chronicle that's specifically dedicated to Eleanor. And although there are sort of poetic works that might be linked to her literary circle and that kind of thing, again, she's got no one to advocate in the same way as some of the kings and monarchs do at the time. And it's when you put all of these colourful stories together, that's what makes her, as a historical character, so fascinating. And one of the reasons why she's so famous is because people just love re examining those stories over and over again.
- [21:06]
B
They're certainly excellent, but I don't want to spend too much time on her because, you know, everything could just evolve to an Eleanor of Aquitaine fest. A few let it. So this is kind of the 13th century iteration of these pilgrimages. Do we see as time goes on and conditions kind of worsen in the Levant, do we see a kind of tapering off of women's involvement? Or is it a groundswell at the beginning where everyone says, okay, that's it, we're going out, we're going to free the Holy Land, et cetera, et cetera? And then by the time, you know, things are getting a little bit more dicey, women stopped showing up? Or is that just a function of how wealth works and the people who can move out there?
- [21:48]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think certainly there are still women involved in crusading activity. Right the way through the 13th century, we have women who take part in the Fifth Crusade and they go as couples. We have, you know, a bit more charter evidence or legal evidence here and there that helps us to identify those women. So they maybe don't pop up so much in the chronicles, but they are kind of there still going. We have a list of a Crusade ship from the mid 13th century that went out around the time of Louis IX's crusade. I think it's the 7th. It gets a bit confusing. All the numbers kind of add up. I mean, the main thing is actually we do tend to think about these Crusades as being first, second, third, fourth, fifth. But there was constant pilgrim traffic going back and forth between the west and the Crusade states every year. So a bunch of pilgrims would arrive every year, especially for Easter, to see the services at Easter. And women were very much involved, involved in that. And so this passenger list on the Crusader ship tells us that there were a large number of women, so some of them traveling with husbands, some of them traveling in groups, some of them traveling potentially on their own. So it's definitely still something that women are involved in. And you also have women who have claims to titles in the east who travel out, like Lucia of Tripoli, for example, who goes out to claim her inheritance of Tripoli right at the end of what we would call the end of the Crusader period. So she's there when it falls to Kalawan in 1289.
- [23:13]
B
So I'm very interested in that, in the women who see themselves not just as pilgrims, not just as individuals who are kind of going out and they're performing a sacred duty, and then they will eventually return home. But the women who settle or consider themselves to have links there, because it's generally assumed that the great majority of those who settle are men. But do we have a lot of evidence for women who stay around in the Levant?
- [23:41]
D
It's an interesting question to think about women who go out on Crusade who actually then end up staying in the East. I think those are relatively few. But as I say, there are women who go out to get married often, and that then ends up leaving them to settle. And when they do go, you know, they take large resources with them. So the reason they're attractive as a marriage partner is because they can bring resources that they desperately need in the Crusader states. So you could look at Baldwin I of Jerusalem's marriage to Adelaide del Vasto, for example, in 1113, where she brings out a vast fleet with grain and archers and, you know, all sorts of things that they need. And cash, of course, very important. So this hugely wealthy widow that he marries largely because he needs her money, and then in 1116, he decides he's fed up of her and divorces her and goes back to his original wife because he'd already been married. Shock, horror. So she gets sent back to Sicily and is very annoyed about it. And this is a big insult to Roger of Sicily, who was potentially hoping to get the throne after Baldwin. It was a big scandal.
- [24:46]
B
See, I love this, because here we have a bunch of people who are, in theory, engaged on a kind of holy endeavor of re Christianizing the Middle east, or indeed Christianizing it at all, and they're acting a fool. There's still intrigue, there's still scandal.
- [25:01]
D
Oh, good Lord, yes. We could start talking about the mistresses of the patriarchs of Jerusalem. But, yeah, I mean, it's very much a political space. And in fact, you know, you talk about the re Christianization, There isn't really missionary activity going on here. That's not necessarily what the Crusaders are attempting to do. I mean, certainly what they try to do is establish Latin Christian rights as the main form of Christianity within the Crusader states. So they have A Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, and they tried to get a new system of Latin priests and bishops installed, but there are also a lot of existing Christians there. So there's, you know, Syriac Christians, Greek Orthodox Christians, Armenian Christians. So they already have a Christian population. And those are the people that they tend to marry when they first arrive. So you have the first couple of rulers of the Crusader states making alliances with Armenian families, for example. And although they follow a slightly different form of Christianity, that's preferable perhaps to them to marry, say, indigenous Muslims. So we have Fulker of Chartres sort of saying, you know, we've started to marry into the local population. He uses the term Saracen, but he says, but only with the grace of baptism, so they would have to convert to Christianity first. But we have some major figures like. I mean, Melisande. Jerusalem is a particular favourite of mine, just because she's. Well, she's awesome. But she is the child of a crusader marriage. Her mum is Armenian, but follows the Greek Orthodox rite rights in the Church. And her dad is a first Crusader, Baldwin II of Jerusalem. And she has this reign where she's sort of ruling jointly with her husband and son, but she's, like, really in charge through that whole middle period of the 12th century. So from, say, 1130 to 1150 really is her key period. And that's when the kingdom is at its height, it's expanding, they're building castles. She's pouring lots of money into patronage. And she's clever in that she patronizes not just crusader activities, but also the Eastern Christians who were there, so that she builds relationships with those communities in order to stay popular. And she does it very effectively. She's kind of a bit of a bridge between these different communities. And I think, you know, women do perform that important function. I find it amazing to think that's also the time when the Second Crusade happens. And at the Council of Palmyrea, she would have been there with Eleanor, would never have any idea what conversation they might have had. So there are times when really powerful women are involved in some very big decisions.
- [28:05]
B
I find her absolutely enthralling because she does all my favorite things that women in the Middle Ages do. She's a real builder. She makes things and leaves an actual physical mark on the landscape. And I think it's really testament to. To the important function of women at the time. There's a tendency within history generally, and certainly the history of the Crusades, to say that, you know, the important things are battles and the important things is one guy with A stick, hitting another guy with a stick. And that's what history is, you know. But really the things that survive to us and the things that we can say objectively change culture or change society are often these so called soft projects that women are engaged in. The making churches or connecting to other people and, you know, making sure that you've got good marriages or even doing works for the poor, things like that that bring people in and really bolster the monarchy. These are all these traditionally feminine things that get ignored because there's no blood involved.
- [29:09]
D
Absolutely. Like what we would call soft power is really, really influential. In the medieval period. It's all about family. And if you've got the ability to influence the way that families are connected, and if you're a bridge between two different families, you have a particularly influential role. But also in terms of thinking about monarchy as well, I do like this term, especially for Melisande, corporate monarchy, where although monarchy is supposed to be the rule of one, it's actually a couple who are working together with different functions. And when the couple work well together, then things are harmonious and usually things go well. But if they fall out, then it can be another story. But I think there is this element of where you have this family that's at the heart of rulership who all have their own roles to play and have to do them effectively. This is a case throughout the history of the Latin east, particularly because we have so many queens that end up ruling in Jerusalem and elsewhere. And that's partly because crusaders keep coming out and dying. They're busy sort of dying on the battlefield or whatever, or usually from illness of some form or other because they're not used to the diet or the climate or that kind of thing.
- [30:19]
B
It's truly remarkable. You know, if you want to look at a group of women who are really ruling in and of their own, it's often the Crusader states that we look to because, yeah, he's out on the battlefield or he contracted leprosy.
- [30:34]
D
Poor old Baldwin.
- [30:35]
B
I know, poor Baldwin. What a guy. Not that that had anything to do with being in the crusader states in particular, but you know, it's notable, that's all. It's interesting because for a subject that is often considered to be very masculine because of the military elements of it, actually what is going on on a level of power or politics is often quite feminine.
- [31:01]
D
Yeah, this is a time where there's a lot of negotiation to be done and that requires gift giving, diplomacy, interpreting, so translation, language skills, understanding different communities. And I think that Kind of soft power and etiquette is something that women are probably well educated and trained in, because that's what their role is going to be at court. And we know, for example, that some Byzantine women were very well educated. They had somebody like Anna Komnena, for example, who writes the history of her father, Emperor Alexius, who's involved in the calling of the First Crusade. She was hugely well educated in terms of literary education. People also don't know she was really good at medicine, so she'd run a hospital before, you know. She's an astonishing woman and writes this amazing history of her father and gives us another interesting perspective on the arrival of the First Crusade. But of course, she makes a bid for political power and it's not successful and she ends up confined to a monastery, which is why she ends up spending her time writing history. But she's a really sort of fascinating example of some really high powered, intelligent women who know politics intimately and are very skillful at kind of understanding their roles at court. But again, you know, the focus there tends to be on elites. But we do sometimes hear about women who are of lower social status who were born out in the East. So someone like Margaret of Beverly, I don't know if you've come across her. She's one of my favorites, so I have not.
- [32:33]
B
Tell me more.
- [32:34]
D
Oh, okay. You must know Margaret's story then. So. Because you were asking me before about, you know, do we know anyone who's like, not elite? She is probably still quite a rich townsperson, but she comes from a small market town, Beverley, in East Yorkshire, or her parents do, but her parents go on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and she's actually born in Jerusalem. So sometimes she's called Margaret of Beverly, sometimes she's called Margaret of Jerusalem. She talks about their hardships coming back on the journey. But then when they arrive back in Beverly, she has a younger brother. He grows up to become a cleric and goes into the circle of Thomas Becket. I think her parents probably passed away. She's involved in looking after her brother, but when his career's kind of settled, she decides she wants to go back to the land of her birth. So she decides to go on pilgrimage and ends up hitting Jerusalem just at the time that Saladin besieges it, which is unfortunate. Oops. In 1187. And we know about her because her brother writes this amazing poem about her after she dies. It's like in the first person. So almost. Almost sounds like, you know, she's telling him the story. It's really great. And she talks about how she's fought on the walls of Jerusalem wearing a cooking pot on her head as a helmet and takes water to the soldiers. And she gets hit in the leg by shrapnel from a millstone that's thrown against the walls, basically, and she's still got scar to prove it. And then when the city is taken, Saladin takes a tribute from some of those who can afford it to go free. So she manages to pay for her freedom, but after that she's taken into slavery for a bit. She has to do hard labour. She describes that in quite a lot of detail. She's finally ransomed by a kind Christian person from Tyre who pays for her ransom. And then she doesn't go home straight away, though. She decides to go on another pilgrimage towards Antioch to see Margaret of Antioch's place, and then gets taken into slavery again and freed again. And then finally she manages to get home with the troops that have come over from the Third Crusade. But she's not finished there. She goes on to Rome, she goes on to Santiago, and then finally she turns up at her brother's monastery in France. By that point, he's over in France, he doesn't recognise her, so she has to tell him the names of their parents, Huon and Sybilla of Beverly, in order that he'll believe that she's his sister. And so she tells him, you know, her life story. And then he says, look, you've had loads of adventures, now you need to go and end your days in a monastery. And so she does. And a poem is probably written after her death for the nuns in the monastery to kind of reflect on her experiences. And, you know, there's a lot of wandering in the wilderness and it's probably not like reportage, you know, it's a poem, of course, as well, so we can't take everything at face value, but it's just such a brilliant story. And also, you know, somebody who is of independent me means who goes on her own on pilgrimage, but ends up in these amazing events and has this fantastic life story. So I always find it amazing how far they travel, how far they go and how there are these women who are engaging with all sorts of adventures across Europe at this time.
- [35:46]
B
Well, I suppose it just goes to show, you know, even if we can't say that this is a 100% accurate record of what happened to her, her, the fact that this is being written indicates that there is an idea that it's somewhat possible, even if it's meant to be incredibly laudable and something to aspire to. I don't think that we're going to get better than Margaret of Beverly, so I think this is probably the place to leave it. Natasha, I can't thank you enough for being here. This has been an absolute delight.
- [36:14]
D
Oh well, thank you very much. It's always a pleasure.
- [36:18]
C
Thanks. Thanks once again to Natasha for joining me and thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. If you are interested in women in the medieval period, why not check out our past episodes on women writers or warrior Viking women. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries including my recent film the Medieval Apocalypse released weekly as well as ad free podcasts. By signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval.
- [36:58]
D
Until next time, Sam.