Gone South: "Charleston, 2015: Dylann Roof and Emanuel AME"

Host: Jed Lipinski
Air date: March 4, 2026
Podcast: Gone South (Audacy Podcasts)
Episode Theme: Reexamining the Charleston church shooting, its profound roots in Southern history, and its enduring impact on debates about race, memory, and justice.

Episode Overview

This deeply reported episode, hosted by Jed Lipinski, revisits the 2015 massacre at Charleston’s Emanuel AME Church, perpetrated by white supremacist Dylann Roof. Through Pulitzer-winning journalism, interviews with scholars, writers, and locals, the episode explores how the attack reflected centuries-old patterns of racial violence in the South—and how it catalyzed both a reckoning with Confederate symbols and an enduring debate over memory, justice, and denial.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Political Amnesia and the Charleston Massacre

(00:01 - 06:00)

• The episode opens with an anecdote from a 2024 congressional hearing, where FBI director Kash Patel could not recall details of the Charleston massacre—sparking outrage and debates about the gravity of racist violence and political memory.
  • Quote: “Dylann Roof, who followed white supremacist propaganda, murdered nine black parishioners in Charleston in 2015. Do you deny this?” —Congresswoman Sidney Kamlager Dove (00:43)
• Lipinski references the significance of the massacre as “one of the most notorious hate crimes in modern U.S. history,” and discusses how its lessons are still fiercely debated.

2. The Emanuel AME Attack—Facts and Historical Resonance

(06:00 - 11:00)

• Attack Summary: On June 17, 2015, 21-year-old Dylann Roof attended a Bible study at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church, then opened fire, killing nine Black parishioners.
• Manifesto & Motivation: Roof’s manifesto framed the attack as a deliberate white supremacist act. He cited radicalization online (Council of Conservative Citizens) and explicitly targeted Emanuel AME for its symbolism and history.
• Challenging the “Lone Wolf” Narrative: Scholar Jelani Cobb pushes back against characterizing Roof as an “inexplicable aberration,” emphasizing Roof’s conscious ideological motives.
  • Quote: “He talked very clearly and explicitly about his motives and that he was responding to the fact that he believed that black people had gained too much power in American society.” —Jelani Cobb (06:11)

3. The Deep History of Emanuel AME

(07:50 - 11:30)

• Church Origins: Emanuel AME, or “Mother Emanuel,” is among the oldest Black churches in America. Its founder Denmark Vesey, once enslaved, was executed for an alleged slave revolt in Charleston.
  • Quote: “Denmark Vesey...bought his own freedom...founded the AME Church...an amazing figure in Southern history.” —Jack Hitt (08:41)
• The church was burned in retaliation; for years, Black Charlestonians worshiped underground.
  • Quote: “After he was executed for this alleged plot…the original [church] was destroyed...the AME church in Charleston for the next few years…met underground.” —Jack Hitt (09:56)

4. Mythmaking, Monuments & Denial

(11:30 - 14:52)

• Distance and Denial: Locals attempted to geographically and psychologically distance themselves from Roof, though he was a South Carolinian.
  • Quote: “There was an attempt...to create psychological, if not geographic, distance between themselves and Dylann Roof.” —Jelani Cobb (10:45)
• Power of Monuments: The church sits on Calhoun Street, named after John C. Calhoun, an architect of Southern pro-slavery ideology. A colossal Calhoun statue long loomed over the neighborhood.
  • Quote: “He was sort of like the Stephen Hawking of all of those sort of racist theories about why blacks should be enslaved.” —Jack Hitt (12:02)
• Resistance and Reinterpretation: Black Charlestonians historically opposed the monuments, using acts of protest and desecration, leading to defensive redesign by city elites.
  • Quote: “[The Calhoun statue] was put on a pedestal that was something like 60ft high so no one could shoot at it or throw tomatoes on it.” —Jack Hitt (13:24)
• Charleston’s veneration of Confederate symbols is woven into its identity and tourist image.

5. Aftermath: Political & Symbolic Upheaval

(14:52 - 22:13)

• Forgiveness and National Impact: Families of victims forgave Roof during his bond hearing, prompting President Obama’s moving eulogy and calls for the Confederate flag’s removal from South Carolina’s capitol.
  • Quote: “It would simply be an acknowledgment that the cause for which they fought, the cause of slavery, was wrong.” —President Obama, quoted by Lipinski (15:28)
• History of the Confederate Flag: Many assumed it was a longstanding presence, but journalist Jack Hitt reveals it was erected in the 1960s as a rebuke to the Civil Rights movement.
  • Quote: “No, it was put up there in the early 60s as an affront to the rising civil rights movement.” —Jack Hitt (19:21)
• Business & Civic Pressure: Calls for the flag’s removal came from civic leaders, university officials, and business interests, not only civil rights activists.
• Trigger for Change: Ultimately, mass protests after the massacre (20,000+ marching) led Nikki Haley to call for the flag’s removal.
  • Quote: “She really tried to walk that line very carefully...she stuck by [heritage, not hate] until the Dylann roof controversy...What really moved her off the dime was…20,000 Charlestonians marched.” —Jack Hitt (20:58)
• Flag Removed: The Confederate flag was removed 19 days after the protest and moved to a museum.

6. Mixed Reactions and Questions of Justice

(22:13 - 26:09)

• Complex Reactions: Among Black Charlestonians, reactions to the removal of the flag were mixed—some celebrated, others called it symbolic and insufficient.
• Family Voices: The brother of victim Cynthia Graham Hurd criticized equating the flag’s removal to compensation for his sister’s death.
  • Quote: “He viewed his sister as being infinitely more important and infinitely more valuable than the Confederate flag was. And so he didn't accept that as currency as any kind of recompense...” —Jelani Cobb (22:47)
• Death Penalty Debate: While the church and most families opposed it, some demanded it for Roof as an affirmation that “black lives matter.” Roof’s attorney, an abolitionist, struggled with the moral tension of seeking mercy for a white supremacist.
  • Quote: “[If sentenced to life]...he was allowed to have a life sentence for something that would almost certainly have resulted in a death sentence for a black defendant.” —Jelani Cobb (25:34)

7. Trials, Museums, and the Conflicted Southern Memory

(26:09 - 31:41)

• Roof’s Trial & Competency: Roof insisted on his own sanity, refusing any insanity defense; the trial began December 2016.
• Charleston’s Confederate Museum: During the trial, Jelani Cobb visits the museum and encounters staff deeply invested in denying any connection between Confederate commemoration and Roof’s violence.
  • Quote: “Heritage and hate were not mutually exclusive...that heritage of the Confederacy had been this ideal of white supremacy and black subordination, violently if necessary.” —Jelani Cobb (28:28)
• Powerful Testimony: Gripping court testimony is highlighted, such as Felicia Sanders describing smearing herself with her son’s blood to protect her granddaughter.
  • Quote: “I watched my son take his first breath in his life, and I watched my son take his last breath in his life.” —Felicia Sanders, recounted by Jelani Cobb (29:52)
• No Closure in Justice: Roof was sentenced to death, but families reported feeling no closure.
  • Quote: “People didn't feel any degree of closure...It had just simply been...the next development in this series of things that are happening.” —Jelani Cobb (31:20)

8. Legacy and Unresolved Reckoning

(31:41 - end)

• Death Penalty Status: In 2024, President Biden commuted most federal death sentences—except for Dylann Roof and two other high-profile cases.
• Ideological Legacy: In the years since, the ideas that fueled Roof’s violence have become more prominent in U.S. public life.
  • Quote: “People who think the way he thought are more prominent in American public life than they have been anytime in this century...” —Jelani Cobb (32:22)
• Lasting Change: The massacre led to removal of Confederate symbols and a broader historical reckoning, including Charleston’s 2018 apology for slavery and the 2020 removal of the Calhoun statue.
  • Quote: “On the fifth anniversary of the tragedy...the mayor of Charleston announced that the statue of John C. Calhoun would finally be taken down after 133 years.” —Jed Lipinski (33:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dylann Roof's Motives:
  • “He talked very clearly and explicitly about his motives...calling upon white people to regain their ordained position at the top of American society.” —Jelani Cobb (06:11)
• On Forgiveness and Grief:
  • “I watched my son take his first breath in his life, and I watched my son take his last breath in his life.” —Felicia Sanders (29:52 recounted by Jelani Cobb)
• On Monuments and Memory:
  • “Calhoun was the great sort of grand unified theorist of the necessity for slavery...the Stephen Hawking of all those racist theories.” —Jack Hitt (12:02)
• On Symbolic vs. Substantive Change:
  • “Other people [said] ...it really didn't have a substantial impact in the lives of African Americans in the state and that they would have preferred…to further equalize education.” —Jelani Cobb (22:13)
• On Denial in Charleston:
  • “Much of the city that I experienced was invested in this kind of denial that Roof had no time or patience for.” —Jelani Cobb (28:28)

Important Timestamps

• 00:43: Congressional hearing exposes political amnesia over Charleston.
• 06:11: Jelani Cobb critiques "lone wolf" narrative; discusses Roof's intent.
• 08:41: Jack Hitt recounts Denmark Vesey’s historical significance.
• 13:24: Black resistance to Charleston’s Calhoun statue.
• 15:28: President Obama’s eulogy; symbolic meaning of Confederate flag.
• 19:21: The origins of Confederate flag on SC capitol explained.
• 20:58: The pivotal mass protest that changes political calculus.
• 22:47: Victim’s family grapples with meaning of flag’s removal.
• 25:34: Death penalty debate and its racial double standards.
• 28:28: Confederate Museum denies hate-heritage link.
• 29:52: Felicia Sanders’ harrowing courtroom account.
• 31:20: No closure for victims’ families after sentencing.
• 32:22: Jelani Cobb on Roof’s ideology and contemporary relevance.
• 33:09: Citywide reckoning—apologies, statue removals.

Episode Takeaways

• The Charleston shooting is not an isolated tragedy, but a door into deeper histories of Southern racial violence, memory, and resistance.
• Its aftermath triggered both symbolic change (flag/statue removal) and revealed divisions over the meaning of justice and true reckoning.
• The ideological roots that animated Roof have grown louder, not quieter, forcing hard questions about history, denial, and the costs of incomplete memory.

For further resources and behind-the-scenes content, contact the Gone South team at gonesouthpodcastmail.com or follow on social media.