Dick Harpootlian (5:00)

The war in Vietnam was raging. There was a huge anti war movement beginning. And so by 1968, I was beginning to immerse myself in the realities of civil rights. We had a demonstration at SC State African American College here where three students were killed, 15 were wounded. They were killed while they were demonstrating to integrate the all white bowling alley in downtown Orangeburg. Okay? They wanted to go bowling and they died for it.

Narrator (5:30)

After law school, Dick took a job with legal aid representing low income clients. He was offered a Job with the local DA's office a few years later and took it only because the DA promised to reform the system from the inside. It was a big ideological shift. But to Dick's surprise, he loved being a prosecutor.

Dick Harpootlian (5:50)

I was doing some very serious cases very early, and I got to do more and more murder cases, more and more serious crimes. And I found it to be extraordinarily rewarding. I found it to be good for the community because we, the prosecutors, not only prosecuted the cases, but dismissed cases where we felt that the police had not gathered enough evidence to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not just getting the wins. It's screening out what you think are unjust prosecutions. And what I found was the exhilaration of doing that job was addictive.

Narrator (6:26)

In his eight years with the DA, Dick handled dozens of prosecutions, from DUIs to death penalty trials. But it was the last case he tried, one involving serial killer Donald Henry Pee Wee Gaskins, that stayed with him. I spent a year in the suburbs of Charleston, South Carolina, back in the early 90s. Charleston seemed a world away from Sumter and Florence counties in the northeastern part of the state where Pee Wee committed most of his murders. That may be why I'd never heard of Pee Wee Gaskins. But in Dick's world, Pee Wee was a household name.

Dick Harpootlian (7:01)

I mean, somebody I ran into the other day reminded me that parents in South Carolina, if they wanted to intimidate their children, would say, you know, you don't come home at night, Pee Wee might get you. You know, when you're out late, Pee Wee might get you. So he was the boogeyman. He was the boogeyman they scared children with. And by the way, a lot of adults scared of him, too.

Narrator (7:27)

Pee Wee grew up in extreme poverty in Florence County, A rural area known in South Carolina as the pd. It was defined by pine forests, tobacco farms, and rundown textile mills. Pee Wee was raised by his mom and never knew his dad.

Dick Harpootlian (7:42)

There were several people that could have been his father. Initially, he thought his last name was Parrott. Then he had decided later on it was a guy named Gaskins. But as a child, there's no question he was abused physically, sexually, by men visiting his mother. His mother at one point, when she took him to be seen by a doctor when he was exhibiting violent behavior. Rages, she would call it. Her excuse, she told people, was that Gaskins had drunk some kerosene when he was a small child. Go figure.

Narrator (8:14)

The violence worsened as he got older. At 12 pee wee hit a little girl in the head with an ax after she caught him breaking into her house. He was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon and sentenced to a reformatory called the Florence School for White Boys. The place was designed to reform young offenders through. Through discipline and education. But it seems like it only made things worse. According to Pee Wee's largely self serving autobiography, the Final Truth, he was repeatedly sexually abused at the Florence School. At one point he escaped and joined the carnival, traveling across multiple states before he was caught. More escapes followed.

Dick Harpootlian (8:52)

One time he escaped. Another little boy, he was like 13 or 14, tried to stop him. Pee Wee pulled out a butcher knife, cut the boy's finger off and threw it in his face and kept running. I mean, that's pretty disturbing behavior. So disturbing that we have a letter from the superintendent of that institution about Gaskins. Talking about all his escape attempts, all the problems they've had with him. And the last paragraph in that report is this young man is extremely disturbed, has homicidal tendencies and certainly will kill. That's at age 14. So I mean there's plenty notice that this was coming.

Narrator (9:32)

Pee Wee was released from reform School at 18. Two years later, he was arrested again for attacking a teenage girl with a hammer over a supposed insult. That got him six years at the South Carolina Penitentiary where he committed what's believed to be his first murder. Pee Wee claimed self defense, but he was handed another three years for involuntary manslaughter. He was finally paroled in 1968. For the first time in his life, Pee Wee appeared to settle down. He got married and found work as a roofer. He presented himself as friendly and unthreatening. The fact that he was 5, 2, 110 pounds made this easier to believe. But under the affable exterior, Pee Wee was still a homicidal psychopath. Between 1969 and 1975, he's thought to have killed 13 people. Almost all of whom were friends or acquaintances of one kind or another. The only exception was a murder he carried out for a woman known as Suzanne Long Legs Owens. Who paid pee wee $1500 to kill her wealthy ex boyfriend. The motives for these murders were varied and often unclear.

Dick Harpootlian (10:41)

He had a niece and her friend come live with him. And when they showed up there on drugs, he hated drugs. He hated drugs. And so he got him off drugs and they were living with him and doing well until he came home one night and they were high again. And he beat both of them to death. Okay, beat them to death, put one of them in the septic tank. His niece. He took and buried her somewhere near the family pot, but in a shallow grave. Her body was later discovered, as was the one in the septic tank. And by the way, the drug dealer that sold them the drugs. He invited her over for a drink, but she was drinking battery acid and as she choked, he beat her to death.

Narrator (11:22)

Pee Wee was also an incorrigible racist. He killed his pregnant ex girlfriend and her two year old mixed race child, Dick says, because he couldn't tolerate the fact that she'd slept with a black man. It seemed to Dick that Pee Wee's murders followed a kind of deranged logic.

Dick Harpootlian (11:39)

His code of conduct, no drugs, no interracial relations, spelled doom for all those folks.

Narrator (11:47)

Pee Wee Gaskins was finally caught in November 1975, mainly because he'd confided in a friend about some of the murders and burial sites behind his house. The friend tipped off the cops and led them to the graves where they unearthed the bodies of a number of Pee Wee's victims. Pee Wee was arrested and charged with multiple counts of murder. Had Pee Wee been caught just a few years earlier, he would have faced the death penalty. But in 1972, the US Supreme Court ruled in Furman v. Georgia that the way the death penalty was being applied was arbitrary and capricious. The court found, for example, that wealthy defendants were far less likely to be sentenced to death than poor defendants. The ruling effectively halted all executions nationwide, including in South Carolina. The most Pee Wee could get was life, with the possibility of parole after just 10 years. So he agreed to cooperate.

Dick Harpootlian (12:43)

Anybody that was alive in the mid-70s, as I was read daily stories where they were digging up another body that Pee Wee had taken him to because as part of his deal to get life, he had to take them to the bodies that he confessed to. So, I mean, the net result was every other day they were digging up a peewee body. And that went on for weeks. And it was pretty astounding.

Narrator (13:05)

Like pretty much everyone in South Carolina, Dick followed every twist and turn of the Pee Wee Gaskins case. He was ultimately given 10 concurrent life sentences for murders he'd committed between 1970 and 1975. People took to calling him the Charles Manson of South Carolina for a couple reasons.

Dick Harpootlian (13:24)

One, he's a murderer and committed multiple murders. And I think like Manson liked killing. In addition to that, he had this bevy of young girls and miscreants, if you will, surrounding him now. He killed a bunch of those miscreants, but he had this little posse that helped him, covered for him, helped him in his different criminal enterprises, including burying some of his victims. I mean, he had this magnetism. He was so friendly, so nice and so not threatening. He's 5 foot 2, skinny little guy. Bet he didn't weigh 110 pounds.

Narrator (13:59)

Dick was a young assistant DA at the time of Pee Wee's arrest, but he wasn't involved with Pee Wee's prosecution. He figured Peewee's decades long crime spree was over and that he'd never have any reason to deal with him, let alone prosecute him for another murder. He was wrong.

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Narrator (16:30)

The event that set Dick Harpoutlian and Donald Peewee Gaskins on a collision course took place on March 18, 1978. That night, a 19 year old man named Rudolph Tyner killed an elderly couple during an attempted armed robbery at a convenience store near Myrtle Beach.

Dick Harpootlian (16:48)

Within 100 yards of that store lived their son, their adopted son, Tony Simo, who had actually seen Tyner walking towards the store early on and his dogs were barking and blamed himself for forever that he didn't go out and check on it. Semo was distraught at the death of his parents, adoptive parents, and Tyner was tried and sentenced to death.

Narrator (17:14)

By now the moratorium on the death penalty had been lifted in South Carolina, but the sentence was reversed for evidentiary issues.

Dick Harpootlian (17:21)

That sentence was reversed for some evidentiary issues and he's retried. At the second trial, Seema was there sitting up front in the courtroom and went for Tyner, went to like choke him out, had to be restrained by police officers. He felt deeply that Tyner needed to be dead.

Narrator (17:41)

Tyner was sentenced to death again, but years passed without an execution. The couple's bereaved son, Tony Simo, was getting impatient. So Cimo contacted a friend who'd served time at the Central Correctional Institute, or cci, where, where Rudolf Tyner was on death row. CCI happened to be the same prison where Pee Wee Gaskins was serving out his 10 life sentences. It was not a nice place.

Dick Harpootlian (18:07)

It was initially built in the 1840s, Sherman, when he invaded the south and burned down this town, Columbia, housed his horses there. I mean, it's pre Civil War. It was unlike any other penitentiary in the country. When I came on board in the 70s, it was so old, so antiquated, it was something like out of the Shawshank Redemption. And no air conditioning. So it was in the Summertime in Columbia, South Carolina. It gets up to 110 degrees. I mean, it was just baking.

Narrator (18:35)

Simo asked his friend who'd done time there if he knew another inmate who'd be willing to kill Rudolph Tyner.

Dick Harpootlian (18:41)

Is there somebody you know in CCI that could do that? He said, oh yeah, there's only one guy, one guy who can do that. And he connected him up through, through an Intermediary, I think initially in a letter, but only by phone. And they talk by phone pretty frequently.

Narrator (18:59)

In their conversations, Simo expressed his desire to kill Tyner to avenge his parents death. He asked Pee Wee if he was up for the job. Pee Wee said yes. It turned out he was in an ideal position to pull it off. By the time Simo and Pee Wee connected In the early 80s, Pee Wee was working as the head trustee of his cell block at cci. Normally prison trustees are inmates who've earned special privileges through good behavior or time served. But Pee Wee wasn't a particularly good inmate. Dick says he just knew how to fix things. The idea of appointing someone like Pee Wee, who's committed all these crimes as a trustee strikes me as unusual. But you tell me appointing him head.

Dick Harpootlian (19:45)

Trustee wasn't unusual in the context of they didn't have any money, they needed somebody to fix the plumbing and the electricity. And again, friendly, oh, he did these killings, he's not going to kill anybody else. I mean, you know, it's just willful blindness I guess is what it was.

Narrator (20:01)

As head trustee, Pee Wee had a cell to himself. That cell happened to be connected to Rudolf Tyner's through a three foot wide vent. After accepting the job from Simo, Pee Wee set about befriending Tyner by talking with him through the vent. He then recruited a friend to help.

Dick Harpootlian (20:18)

Him by becoming the head trustee. He gets to pick all the other trustees and he picked one named James Brown, who when I met him, had a beard down to his knees and hair way over his shoulders. And he was serving two life sentences for the murder of two, I believe they were Jehovah's Witnesses, women that came to his house one Saturday afternoon while he was watching a football game. And he went in his back bedroom, came out, shot both of them in the head and then had sex with him. That would be sex with the dead people, the dead women. Pee Wee's best friend think of, I mean just, I mean just sort of best buddies.

Narrator (20:56)

James Brown had been sentenced to death. So Pee Wee as head trustee appointed him to deliver food to the other inmates on death row, including Rudolph Tyner. In this way, Pee Wee laid the groundwork for the plot to kill him. In their prison phone calls, Pee Wee suggested the easiest way to kill Tyner would be to poison him. He asked Simo to smuggle some poison into the prison. He then handed it off to his buddy James Brown, who mixed it into Tyner's food and delivered it to him. Simo thought this would do the trick. But as Pee Wee told him over the phone, it just made Tyner sick.

Pee Wee Gaskins (21:34)

All of it but one dose. And all it was doing is making that son of a bitch sick. We put it in some damn book for him to drink. The other night he drank and two more drank and all it was made all three of them sick as hell. It make them sick as hell. And that's it.

Narrator (21:51)

Pee Wee intentionally recorded all of his prison conversations with Simo. It's unclear why, but Dick suspects he intended to blackmail Simo and thought the tapes would come in handy. Whatever the case, the tapes capture the stages of Pee Wee and Simo's plot to murder Rudolph Tyner. When the poison didn't work, Pee Wee proposed an alternative. He would build an intercom for Tyner to communicate with him more effectively through the vent between their cells. This intercom would actually be a bomb that when Tyner held it to his head to speak, would explode. To accomplish this, Pee Wee needed Simo to send him some components.

Pee Wee Gaskins (22:30)

So I come up with something, told him that I would call you if you wanted me and tell you if you'll send in. It can't be no damn making sick on it. I need one electric cap and as much of a stick of damn dynamite as you can get. I'll take a damn radio and rig it into a bomb way pleasure. That son of a bitch will go off and there won't be no damn coming back on.

Dick Harpootlian (22:51)

Dad.

Narrator (22:54)

If you didn't catch that. Pee Wee asks Simo for a stick of dynamite and an electric cap, another word for a detonator. Simo calmly replies that he can't get the dynamite, but he can get him some C4 plastic explosives. Pee Wee says that'll do. When the explosives arrived, Pee Wee got to work.

Dick Harpootlian (23:14)

And he takes a plastic cup about this big that's made of unbreakable plastic. It's a Department of Corrections plastic glass that can't be shattered, can't be used to make a sheave. He melts a hole in the bottom of it with his soldering iron that he's allowed to have. And he puts a female plug there, connects the female plug to the blasting cap, puts in nuts, bolts, any sharp piece of metal he has, nails, and then glues a speaker on top of it from a radio. He tells Tyner this is an intercom and he runs a wire from his cell through the vent into Tyner's cell and it's got a mail plug on the end of it. So he has Brown deliver with the food, deliver that to Tyner. And Tyner says, I got it. What do I do? He says, well, I'm going to talk on this end, put it up to you and see if you can hear me. On Pee Wee's end is a 110 plug. And he plugs it into the wall, hits the blasting cap. Tyner's hand evaporates, the speaker's driven into his brain. He lived about 40 minutes, which is pretty amazing. Pee Wee pulls the wire back, quips it up, and he's laying on his bunk as people run by, going to see what the big bang was. And he comes out. And many witnesses say he was as shocked as we were.

Narrator (24:29)

Still, it didn't take long for prison authorities to suspect Pee Wee was behind the murder. By this point, South Carolina had reinstated the death penalty, meaning Pee Wee could be tried and sentenced to death. It would fall to Dick Harpootlian to prosecute the case.

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Narrator (25:48)

Pee Wee may have thought he was being discreet when he rigged an improvised explosive device that killed death row inmate Rudolph Tyner. He'd hidden the soldering iron and electrical parts inside his toolbox, which he was allowed to have as the head trustee. But prison officials were onto him.

Dick Harpootlian (26:04)

Almost immediately, the rumors began circulating around as any prison that Pee Wee was somehow involved. An investigator named Al Waters heard those. He went to Pee Wee's cell, had Pee Wee strip, took him out of his cell and and put him in a hole, as they would call it, which is a solitary confinement. He then went through everything in the cell, found nothing incriminating but these 36 tapes.

Narrator (26:31)

These 36 tapes contained the recordings of Pee Wee's prison phone Calls with Tony Simo. They essentially laid out the entire murder conspiracy. Dick Harpoutlian, who was still with the DA's office, was appointed lead prosecutor. It wasn't his first death penalty case, but it was definitely the biggest of his career. According to Dick, it took four weeks just to pick the jury.

Dick Harpootlian (26:55)

It took four weeks because. Mr. Jury, you ever heard of Donald Pee Wee Gaskins? Yes. What do you know about him? Largest mass murder in the history of the state. Well, could you put that aside and base your verdict on the evidence you hear in the courtroom? Okay. We went through almost 300 and something jurors before we got 12. The second part was if they said, yeah, I can put that aside, okay, would you automatically give him, if you convict him, the death penalty or could you consider life? That was the standard. Still is, and most of them are very honest. Said, no, no, no. If he did this, he needs to get the death penalty.

Narrator (27:34)

Once they finally picked a jury, Dick prepared to put his first and best witness on the stand. James Brown, Pee Wee's friend on death row who delivered the poisoned food that nearly killed Rudolph Tyner as well as the intercom that actually killed him. Dick had to clean him up before he could testify.

Dick Harpootlian (27:52)

He looked like Robinson Crusoe. The first time I met him, he looked positively like he'd been on an island for like 10 years. Got him to cut his hair, shave his beard. I got him a three piece suit with a white shirt and regimental tie.

Narrator (28:07)

For weeks before the trial, Dick had brought James Brown to the courtroom every Saturday to rehearse on the witness stand. When the day of his testimony finally arrived, Dick brought him to the bathroom to shave and rehearse it one last time. As he did so, James Brown suddenly broke down in tears.

Dick Harpootlian (28:26)

And he starts crying. And I don't mean just sobbing, I mean bawling like a baby. And I realized at that point I locked myself in a small room with a psychopathic killer. And I said, okay, what's the problem, James? He said, I lied to you. I went, holy moly, James, we're five minutes from you taking the stand. What did you lie about? I said, I told you me and Pee Wee were friends. I said, everybody said they best buddies never went anywhere. You ate in the dining room. I mean, you know, what'd you lie about? He said, we were more than friends. I said, what? He said we were lovers.

Narrator (29:05)

Brown went on to say that his mother had come to see the trial from Tennessee and he didn't want her to know that he and Pee Wee were an item. Dick was shocked. But he reassured Brown that it wasn't a big deal and promised he wouldn't bring it up. Dick kept that promise during the first half of Brown's testimony. But then he noticed Pee Wee whispering into the ear of his defense attorney, Jack Swirling.

Dick Harpootlian (29:28)

Swirling looks up at him and then looks back at Pee Wee. Says Swirling knows Pee Wee's told him.

Narrator (29:33)

Dick now faced a dilemma. He promised Brown that he would not expose his affair with Pee Wee in front of his mom. But by not doing so, he allowed the defense to reveal the affair first and use it to frame Brown as a jilted lover with a vendetta. Someone whose testimony might be tainted by jealousy or revenge. By eliciting the admission himself, though, Brown, Dick would accomplish several things. One, he would disarm the defense's argument that their romantic relationship made Brown more likely to lie. And two, he could use it as evidence that Pee Wee trusted Brown and would confide in him about committing a murder for hire. On the spot. Dick decided to reveal that Brown and Pee Wee were lovers.

Dick Harpootlian (30:15)

You know, I broke my word to a psychopathic killer in the witness stand. I said, now, James, he told us that Pee Wee and you were friends. He said, yes. I said, you were more than friends, weren't you? And he looked past me, he looked at his mom, got a little tear in his eye and he said, yeah. Very soft. He said, yeah. I said, what were you? And he said, lovers. I said, james, I can't hear you. And he said louder than he needed to, we were lovers.

Narrator (30:44)

At that point, Pee Wee's attorney, Jack Swirling, leapt out of his seat and raised an objection.

Dick Harpootlian (30:49)

And as he sort of lumbers towards the judge's bench, Pee Wee's got a hold of his coattail. And after Troy went a couple steps, Pee Wee yells in that high pitched voice, jack, Jack. Ask him who was on top. Pee Wee was furious that they might assume he was on the bottom, okay, where he spent most of his life. Who's on top is a big deal. I'm looking at the jury. I knew right then if Pee Wee's number one concern was who was the man in the relationship. They were going to kill him.

Narrator (31:24)

After that, the rest of the trial went relatively smoothly. The jury heard damning testimony from FBI agents and forensic experts who'd investigated the murder. But the tapes were the coup de grace. Pee Wee, meanwhile, took it all in stride. He seemed to relish the attention. Dick was struck by how genial the guy was.

Dick Harpootlian (31:45)

First of all, defendants don't Speak to the da. You know, I can't think of a single time when defendants walked into the courtroom and said good morning to me, okay? He'd walk into the courtroom, good Morning, Dick. Not Mr. Harpootley and not solicitor Dick. He's so disarming. I would say, okay, hey, Pee Wee, how you doing? I mean, very friendly.

Narrator (32:07)

Toward the end of the trial, when it was clear that Pee Wee was headed for the death penalty, he called out to Dick again in his distinctive high pitched voice.

Dick Harpootlian (32:16)

I can still hear it. Dick. Dick. I said, yeah, what do you want, Pee Wee? He said, you know, you're a lot like me. I said, no, I'm not. What are you talking about? He said, you are killing. I said, what? He said, you like killing just like me. I said, no, I don't. He said, well, I've been watching you. You like killing me. I said, what do you mean? He said, you like kill? You enjoying killing me? Okay. And he chuckled about it.

Narrator (32:44)

The jury unanimously found Pee Wee guilty of murdering his fellow inmate, Rudolph Tyner. At sentencing, Dick stressed Pee Wee's long history of violence and the threat he continued to pose even behind bars. The judge sentenced Pee Wee to die in the electric chair. This made him the first man in South Carolina to receive a death sentence under the state's reinstated capital punishment laws. His execution wouldn't come for another eight years. By then, Dick had been elected chief prosecutor of Richland County. Two weeks ahead of the execution date, he learned Pee Wee was plotting his revenge.

Dick Harpootlian (33:22)

He had his son visit him and he asked his son to have my daughter kidnapped, my 4 year old daughter kidnapped, and he was to kidnap her, put her in the trunk of his car, call me and say, have my daddy brought up to the courthouse, which I could do, certainly. And again, Gaskins was more familiar with the process and the ins and outs than I was. He'd been in court probably as much as I had. But what was bizarre was he said, have him bring me up to his office, which I could do. And I could probably even convince the guards to stay outside. What he knew and most people did not know was I had a back entrance to my office that he could have gone out of and gotten a head start. And the son said, well, daddy, if he won't do that, what should I do? He said, kill her.

Narrator (34:12)

The plot unraveled when Pee Wee tried to recruit a friend from Florence county to help him instead. The friend tipped off the sheriff and authorities placed Dick and his family under 24 hour protection until the threat passed on. The day of Pee Wee's execution, Dick declined to attend.

Dick Harpootlian (34:30)

I had a right to go watch the execution, did not do it because you know why? I'm not a killer like him. I mean, it was important for me to say, no, I'm not going to go. You enjoy watching people die, Peewee? I don't.

Narrator (34:44)

Witnesses would later describe it as one of the most gruesome executions the state had ever seen. As the current surged through him, Pee Wee's eyes exploded. His hair caught on fire. A few years later, after being elected state senator, Dick would vote in favor of lethal injection and even the firing squad as more humane alternatives to the chair. Dick is now 76 years old. He works mostly civil cases and recently announced that he will represent Hunter Biden in a federal libel lawsuit. But lately, he's been reflecting on all the pain and suffering he witnessed during his days as a prosecutor and the psychic toll it took.

Dick Harpootlian (35:25)

And my attitude about being a lawyer is it's the rule of law, and I'm going to do what's ethically and legally right for my client, whether it's the state of South Carolina or a specific individual. And it's hard to do that every day. And that, I think, in some cases, diminishes your humanity. And so the Gaskins book, to me, had to be written. It's not a healing process. It's getting it out there so people understand what I experienced. And maybe it explains a little bit more about why I am who I am today. If you care.

Narrator (36:01)

As of 2025, Pee Wee Gaskins remains the most prolific serial killer in South Carolina history. Dick's book about him, titled Dig Me a Grave, comes out in December. If you have information, story tips, or feedback you'd like to share with the Gone south team, please email us@gonesouthpodcastmail.com that's gone south podcastmail, and for bonus content, you can follow us on Facebook, TikTok and Instagram at Gone south podcast. You can also sign up for our newsletter on substack. Gone south with Jed Lipinski. Gone south is an Odyssey original podcast. It's created, written and narrated by me, Jed Lipinski. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman, Matty Sprung Kaiser, Tom Lipinski, Lloyd Lockridge, and me. Our story editors are Tom Lipinski, Maddy Sprunkheiser and Joel Lovell. Gone south is edited by Chris Basel and Perry Crowell. It's mixed and mastered by Chris Basel. Production support from Ian Mont and Sean Cherry. Special thanks to J.D. crowley, Leah Rees, Dennis, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt, Courtney, and Hilary Sh.

Courtney Harrell (37:30)

Imagine if you could ask someone anything you wanted about their finances. How much do you make? Who paid for that fancy dinner? What did your house actually cost? On every episode of what We Spend, a different guest opens up their wallets, opens up their lives, really, and tells us all about their finances. For one week, they tell us everything they spend their money on.

Narrator (37:53)

My son slammed like $6 for the blueberries in five minutes.

Courtney Harrell (37:57)

This is a podcast about all the ways money comes into our lives and then leaves again, which, of course, we all have a lot of feelings about.

Dick Harpootlian (38:05)

I really want these things.

Emma Greed (38:06)

I want to own a house.

Dick Harpootlian (38:07)

I want to have a child. But this morning, I really wanted a coffee.

Courtney Harrell (38:10)

Because whatever you are buying or not buying or saving or spending, at the end of the day, money is all always about more than your balance. I'm Courtney Harrell, and this is what We Spend. Listen to and follow what We Spend and Odyssey original podcast, available now wherever you get your podcasts.