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- [00:02]
Host
Let's be honest, you've been portrayed as a monster.
- [00:04]
Eric Bland
Yes, Evil.
- [00:06]
Gustavo Arellano
Maniacal.
- [00:08]
Narrator
What's it like to interview a killer? 48 Hours is taking you inside what we've learned about the criminal mind. This is Killer Conversation. You can follow and listen to Killer Conversation on Tuesdays in the 48 Hours podcast feed on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:31]
Eric Bland
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- [02:36]
Greg Leone
I understood from the conversation that he shot this man and his wife was, you know, having sex with him and he was driving and he was driving away.
- [02:49]
Eric Bland
From what Eric gathered, Greg had caught his wife of more than 20 years having sex with a man in a pickup truck parked next to a John Deere dealership off Interstate 20. Greg claimed the man had reached for a gun so he shot him and fled the scene. Eric told his wife he had to go. He met Greg at a gas station halfway between Columbia and Charleston.
- [03:14]
Greg Leone
He was, as you can imagine, very unnerved. So I say, we're going to go turn ourselves in. And he says, okay, let's drive him my car. I said, fuck, no, I'm not driving in your car. You know, police come up and you decide you're going to shoot your way out of it. I'm not. I didn't say that. I just said, no, Greg, I'm going to drive my own car.
- [03:32]
Eric Bland
Eric took the lead. He guided Greg's Range Rover toward the Lexington county police station, about 20 miles away. As they drove, Eric's phone lit up with calls from the police chief, the sheriff, and the director of the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, known as sled. The man Greg shot was dead. They told him they'd issued a bolo, a be on the lookout alert for Greg. Eric told them not to worry. Greg was going to turn himself in.
- [04:01]
Greg Leone
As we get off the highway and go in towards Lexington, Greg's behind me. And it was just staggered police cars with the blue lights just, you know, for almost a half a mile. And as we're coming in, we pull into the town police station and I mean, they come up, I get out of my car, I'm thrown to the ground. Greg's thrown to the ground, like, look, man, I'm his lawyer. They immediately leave me alone. They get Greg, we go downstairs into the department. It's probably about 12:15 right now, 12:30 in the morning. And we go into a room and, you know, Greg's manic at this point. He wants to talk. And I'm telling him, Greg, you can't talk. There's a camera sitting right there. Get it that I'm an attorney for you and we're in a room, but, you know, you can't talk.
- [04:49]
Eric Bland
An hour passed, then another. Finally, a detective walked in. He'd searched Greg's car, he said, but he hadn't found the gun. Did Greg want to tell him where it was? Greg seemed eager to tell his side of the story, but Eric wouldn't let him. Six years would pass before his version of events became known. During that time, people in Lexington county could only speculate about what really happened that night and marvel at how far the region's most successful and beloved immigrant restaurateur, a man the LA Times once called the combo plate king of South Carolina, had fallen. I'm Jed Lipinski. This is gone south. Eric Bland is originally from Philadelphia, as you can probably tell by his accent. But he graduated from the University of South Carolina Law School and set up a practice in Columbia, the state capital, in the early 90s. If you recognize the name Eric Bland, that's because Eric and his firm, Bland Richter, played a key role in bringing down Alex Murdoch, the scion of the infamous Murdoch family, who was convicted not only of murdering his wife and son, but also of stealing close to $9 million from clients, friends and his own law firm. Bland Richter filed the first lawsuit against Alex, setting in motion a chain of investigations and indictments that ultimately toppled the Murdochs, one of the most powerful legal dynasties in the South. To Alex Murdoch, in other words, Eric was the enemy. But to Greg Leone, the successful South Carolina restaurateur, Eric was a companion. In fact, Eric counted Greg as one of his best friends.
- [06:37]
Greg Leone
As much as my client, he's more than a client, he's a friend. And when I say he's a client, he's a substantial client. I mean substantial income client for me because I handled all of his corporate work, everything.
- [06:49]
Eric Bland
Greg did not speak fluent English. He was also illiterate. Eric acted as his liaison to the English speaking world.
- [06:57]
Greg Leone
So if he had a doctor's appointment, he'd want me to call the doctor. If he needed a prescription, I had to interact with the pharmacist.
- [07:06]
Eric Bland
Greg Leone was already a millionaire many times over when Eric began representing him in 1998. He owned a thriving chain of Mexican restaurants, all called San Jose, which had become fixtures in Lexington County, a mostly white middle class suburb in the heart of South Carolina. Greg was also a fixture of the community himself, someone both Mexican immigrants and native South Carolinians turned to for advice, support and food.
- [07:33]
Greg Leone
If you came to Greg and said you needed a job, he'd give you a job. He'd give you a job in his restaurant, he'd give you a job on his farm. If he heard a story on the news about a young kid who had cancer or whatever, he'd funnel money to that family. He supported at least 15 families living in our community. Greg loved Carolina football. He had tailgate parties every Saturday. There would be grills, big TVs, anybody can come by and anybody would eat. He would cook steaks, he would cook seafood. You just walk there, you can eat.
- [08:11]
Eric Bland
Greg Leone's success as a businessman in South Carolina was all the more remarkable for the fact that he was born in a small Mexican vill called San Jose de la Paz in the state of Jalisco, known for its mariachi music and tequila. As a boy, Greg and his family migrated to Georgia to join his father, Greg Leone Sr. Who opened the first San Jose restaurant in Atlanta in 1981. The family later established a foothold in Columbia, South Carolina, where Mexican food was basically unheard of. People were used to country cooking. Greg later told a reporter, they were not willing to even experiment and taste our dishes. We'd ask, do you like Mexican food? They'd say, no, I don't like it. So we would say, have you ever had it? And they'd say, no, but I don't like it. The early years were a struggle, but the locals eventually came around. And while the San Jose chain may have predated Greg, he was the driving force behind its success. When Eric first told me about the Lyon family's journey, it sounded like an isolated phenomenon, one family's relentless drive to achieve the American dream. But it turns out the Lyones are just one piece of a much larger and equally fascinating story. How people from the tiny Mexican village of San Jose de la Paz almost single handedly introduced Mexican cuisine to the southeastern United States.
- [09:36]
Gustavo Arellano
So San Jose de la Paz, it's based in the state of Jalisco. Jalisco is most famous in Mexico for being the birthplace of mariachi and Texas tequila. It's also been one of the states that has sent the most Mexicans to the United States.
- [09:49]
Eric Bland
This is Gustavo Arellano. He's a columnist for the Los Angeles Times and author of the book Taco USA How Mexican Food Conquered America. To understand Greg Leone, Gustavo says you have to understand the people who preceded him into the American South.
- [10:06]
Gustavo Arellano
So specifically the story of San Jose de la Paz. He starts seeing people from there coming into the United states in the 1950s as legal immigrants through the Bracero program. So it was agreement between the Mexican and American governments to send Mexican males to work as temporary farm workers. They'd work one, two years, then get sent back, and then, you know, you could apply to go back there again. That program ended in 1964. But, you know, it's the old saying, once you show them Paris, how are you going to get them back to the farm? These Mexican migrants saw what the United States offered, saw that you could make far more money in the United States than you can in Mexico. So slowly but surely, you're starting to see a trickle of people from San Jose de la Paz coming here legally in the 1960s, 1970s.
- [10:55]
Eric Bland
But it wasn't until two men, distant relatives of Greg Leone's, named Jose Macias And Raul Leon got the idea to create create Mexican restaurants in Atlanta. That the exodus of migrants from San Jose de la Paz to the south really began.
- [11:10]
Gustavo Arellano
They realized, like the south has no Mexican food at all. This is our road to riches. So Jose opens up a restaurant that ends up being called El Toro in Atlanta. Then Raul ends up opening up a restaurant called Monterrey in a city called Doraville. Then their brothers and sisters start opening up their own restaurants with their own names. And it just starts spreading like wildfire.
- [11:39]
Eric Bland
In the 1990s, the Dallas Morning News published a series about how Mexican migration had transformed the United States. The reporter interviewed Jose Macias, who pointed out that people from San Jose de la paz had over 500 Mexican restaurants across the South.
- [11:56]
Host
How did they do it?
- [11:57]
Eric Bland
According to Gustavo, they did it the same way Chinese immigrants introduced chop suey to the south decades earlier, by appealing to the southern palate. In the 80s and 90s, before the arrival of Nashville hot chicken. People in most parts of the Southeast weren't accustomed to spicy food. Many had never eaten a corn tortilla.
- [12:18]
Gustavo Arellano
So the spices that they would use would not be the spiciest. You would have hard shell tacos instead of tacos on a tortilla. Because the American palate, at least at that point, knew what a hard shell taco was. But the most important thing was the cheese. Southerners love good gloppy cheese melted. You got your pimento cheese, you got the queso that you have from Tex Mex food up in Arkansas as well. Like southerners love gooey melted things, which, by the way, I love as well.
- [12:50]
Eric Bland
These were key innovations. But in Gustavo's view, what really won over the south was a simple dish called arroz con pollo, Spanish for chicken over rice. Every country in Latin America has its own version of arroz con pollo. But to succeed in the south, migrants from San Jose de la Paz Southernized.
- [13:09]
Gustavo Arellano
It for the South. They just got a plain chicken breast, Mexican rice, and then they covered it in cheese sauce, and arroz con pollo will its spirit Spanish. So someone came up with a brilliant idea of giving it an acronym, acp. So all of a sudden, acp, you think it's like a, you know, college sports division or something like that, like the sec, the ACC or something like that. And really on the back of that acp, that's where the people from San Jose de la Paz got rich.
- [13:40]
Eric Bland
Greg Leone, in other words, was the inheritor of a rich cultural tradition. He was not so much a pioneer as an innovator. A man who took a pre existing model and through street smarts, charisma and sheer drive built his own mini empire in South Carolina. A Spanish language newspaper in the state once called Greg un orgullo Hispano or a Hispanic to be proud of. People who knew him in Lexington county considered him the embodiment of the American dream. But for Greg, achieving the American dream was came with a cost.
- [14:19]
Host
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- [14:23]
Eric Bland
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- [14:25]
Host
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- [15:29]
Eric Bland
A free cat toy.
- [15:30]
Host
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- [15:42]
Eric Bland
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- [15:45]
News Anchor
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- [16:26]
Eric Bland
Over the 20 year period that attorney Eric Bland represented Greg Leone, the two men spoke several times a week. Eric watched Greg interact with customers, staff, his large extended family, local politicians. Eric said he had an uncanny instinct for business.
- [16:44]
Greg Leone
A memory like you've never seen. Don't ever quote something to him that you think you were right on, or he. He'll tell you exactly where you were and what was said, and he remembers everything. You can't bullshit him. You cross him, that's a problem. You know, he'll give you the opportunity to, I guess, take advantage of him, but you only get to take advantage of him once. A very smart man understands business and money and risk. Just the minute he opened a restaurant, he'd open, where are we going next?
- [17:19]
Eric Bland
Greg was also a devout Catholic. He wore a rosary and was a major donor to his local church. Still, he had his vices. Gambling was one of them.
- [17:31]
Greg Leone
Loved action. I mean, we would bet on flipping quarters. We would throw quarters to a wall. The guy that got the quarter closest to the wall, it's 20 bucks. We would be sitting in front of an elevator at the courthouse, and he'd turn to me and say, okay, let's turn around, $10. Which elevator opens first? But his real vice other than gambling was chickens, gamecock roosters. And he fought them. And to me, it's barbaric. I would never even consider it. But in his culture in Mexico, rooster fighting is what we go to dog races or, I mean, horse racing. It's just done. And the reverence that he has for his birds. I mean, he had 300, 400 Gamecock roosters on his farm, each tethered to a pole, each with their own house, very clean. You know, he would breed them, and some of his birds were worth thousands and thousands of dollars.
- [18:33]
Eric Bland
For more than 100 years, the symbol of the University of South Carolina's athletic teams has been the fighting gamecock. The bird symbolizes fierceness and tradition. As a teenager in Charleston back In the early 90s, I remember friends of mine wearing USC hats that read simply Cocks. And yet, since 2002, cockfighting has been illegal in all 50 states. Under the Animal Welfare act, offenders can face up to five years in prison and fines of more than $250,000. Despite this, Greg's attorney, Eric Bland, said Gregg openly engaged in cockfighting in Lexington county for years with the tacit approval of local law enforcement.
- [19:15]
Greg Leone
They know that he was chicken fighting in Lexington County. You know, he had land where they would do this to a point where law enforcement officers were there at the chicken fights as spectators. So he had this amazing relationship with law enforcement.
- [19:32]
Eric Bland
The Lexington County Sheriff's office took a similarly hands off approach to Greg's restaurants. It was an open secret that Greg relied fairly heavily on undocumented workers, many of them from his hometown in Mexico, to keep the San Jose chain running. And yet the restaurants were never raided. I asked Eric why that was.
- [19:52]
Greg Leone
I never asked him, and I'm not revealing any attorney client privilege. I just assumed he's done so much for these law enforcement officers that they stayed away. And if you were a law enforcement officer and you went inside his restaurant, you ate for free. Even I saw drinking for free. So any given time, you went into his restaurant at lunch or dinner, you see tables and tables of law enforcement officers. The restaurant he had near Pawnee Grove Road was known for his real vibrant lunch crowd. Some restaurants had dinner crowds. This had a lunch crowd because right behind it, within like a half a mile, was the South Carolina law enforcement division called SLED, which is like state FBI. You walk in there at lunch, there'd be 30 SLED officers eating there for free.
- [20:42]
Eric Bland
Eric says he can only speculate about the arrangement Greg had with local and state law enforcement. But what he's implying seems pretty obvious. In exchange for free enchiladas, the cops agreed not to bust his undocumented workers. As we recorded this podcast, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ice, was executing mass immigration raids throughout California and the southwest. You might be wondering, where was ice in all this? Well, throughout the aughts and 2010s, ice and the Lexington County Sheriff's office had what's called a work sharing agreement. Basically, this gave sheriff's deputies the right to act on ice's behalf. So if one of Greg's undocumented workers got pulled over for speeding, Lexington county deputies would process them at the local jail. At that point, they'd call Greg.
- [21:32]
Greg Leone
So Greg would get tipped by some officers or would get a first phone call. If somebody got picked up, hey, one of your workers got picked up. And so I would be able to get people out legally, get them before a judge. You know, you could sit months on end before you get a bond hearing if you're caught without proper documentation. Because Greg had such a great relationship with the sheriff's department, I'd be able to get people right before a judge and make bond.
- [22:02]
Eric Bland
This arrangement lasted for years, but things changed around 2012. That year, South Carolina tightened its immigration enforcement laws. Businesses were suddenly required to verify their employees eligibility at hiring. The new laws triggered a labor shortage in businesses that often rely on undocumented workers, like landscaping, construction, and restaurants. Eric couldn't say exactly how Greg Leone responded to the stricter laws, but it's well documented that many restaurant owners who relied on undocumented workers simply pushed it deeper underground. They paid workers in cash, avoided payroll taxes, and risked labor law violations. It was around this time that the informal arrangement between Greg Leone and the Lexington County Sheriff's office also changed.
- [22:52]
Greg Leone
And then, you know, it went from food to hey, you got to give some money to this campaign, perhaps, or Sheriff Metz. And Sheriff Metz never came to Greg and said, I want this. He always sent an emissary to say, hey, Greg, we need food and cash.
- [23:13]
Eric Bland
Lexington County Sheriff James Metz was the longest serving sheriff in South Carolina history. At the time, his authority in the region was unquestioned. Eric compared him to Boss Hogg, the corrupt, cigar chomping county commissioner from the TV show the Dukes of Hazzard.
- [23:30]
Greg Leone
I mean, he was a boss hog. You can't be a sheriff for 43 years and not be a boss hog. And you can't remain in power unless you have subordinates that are loyal to you that will do your whatever it is you want. Done favors you want. Done money you need.
- [23:50]
Eric Bland
The cash Greg paid to Sheriff Matz through his subordinates at least ensured that his undocumented workers would be protected and that in turn, Greg's restaurants would continue serving the sheriff's employees for free. It was a scenario that benefited both parties. Until it didn't.
- [24:14]
Gustavo Arellano
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- [24:25]
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- [24:27]
Gustavo Arellano
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- [24:29]
Eric Bland
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- [24:31]
Gustavo Arellano
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- [24:33]
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- [24:36]
Gustavo Arellano
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- [24:45]
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- [25:22]
Eric Bland
The downfall of Greg Leone and Lexington County Sheriff James Metz began as downfalls often do with the launch of a federal investigation around 2013, the U.S. attorney's Office for the District of South Carolina initiated a probe into public corruption in Lexington County. They were joined by the FBI, ice sled, and the state attorney general's office. They set their sights on Sheriff Metz.
- [25:49]
Greg Leone
So they decide they were going to pinch this guy. So who do they go to? They go to those that are closest to him, and Greg was closest to him. And so how are you going to squeeze Greg? You're going to squeeze him on his chickens, you're going to squeeze him on gambling, and you're going to squeeze them on his immigration stuff. And he's got these restaurants. I mean, that's a lifeblood of his family. It's the lifeblood of the. The community. And so Greg had to be a snitch. He had to turn and testify against Sheriff Metz.
- [26:20]
Eric Bland
The feds already suspected Greg was paying Sheriff Metz to shield his undocumented workers. They offered him leniency in exchange for his cooperation. Greg took the deal even though he and Eric knew it would forever change his relationship with law enforcement.
- [26:36]
News Anchor
We're starting tonight with big breaking news that we're working on in the wis Newsroom. The sheriff of Lexington County, James Metz, been.
- [26:42]
Greg Leone
Has.
- [26:42]
News Anchor
Has been indicted by a Federal Grand Jury.
- [26:45]
Greg Leone
News 10 is following the story.
- [26:47]
Eric Bland
A federal grand jury indicted Metz on 10 counts related to public corruption, bribery, and conspiracy to harbor undocumented immigrants. He later pled guilty to helping restaurant employees avoid immigration enforcement at the local jail. He received a one year sentence and a $10,000 fine. Greg didn't come away unscathed. He was charged with employing undocumented immigrants and failing to pay minimum wage and overtime. He and members of his family who helped run the restaurants were fined nearly $400,000 in back wages. Greg was sentenced to nine months in federal prison in Virginia. Despite the fines levied against the Lyones, Eric rejects the idea that Greg ever exploited his employees.
- [27:34]
Greg Leone
These workers, to Greg were family. He treated them like family. He provided housing to his workers. Greg probably had 30 to 40 rental houses. And some of his workers, you know, he let. If there was four bedrooms, four guys got to live in there rent free, paid his cooks 60, 65 thousand dollars a year.
- [27:57]
Eric Bland
Journalist and food critic Gustavo Arellano takes a different view. The exploitation of workers, he says, is endemic to the system that gave rise to Greg Leone and the legions of other migrant restaurateurs from San Jose de la Paz.
- [28:11]
Gustavo Arellano
They Got into an industry that is among the most ruthless, most ruthlessly capitalistic in the world, but especially United States, the restaurant industry. It is an industry built on exploitation. So these family members, you think the family members are going to get paid? They're not going to get paid. Then they start bringing in their cousins. You think they're going to get paid? They're going to get paid very little. Then they start bringing in familiars. Familiars would be like relatives, but distant relatives. And sometimes they're not even relatives. But you consider them part of your community, you think they're going to get paid a little? Yeah. And that's exactly what happened.
- [28:48]
Eric Bland
Years later, in a piece Gustavo wrote for the LA Times, he discovered a US Department of Labor report showing that Mexican restaurants with ties to San Jose de La Paz, including some operated by Greg and his family, had paid out over $10 million in fines for workplace discrimination. The charges included overtime violations and forcing employees to work just for tips and sometimes for nothing at all. Gustavo found one ruling against Jose Macias, the founding figure behind the wave of Mexican restaurants in the South.
- [29:21]
Gustavo Arellano
This is coming from a judge who said that this entire system of how they built their restaurants is basically built on the patron system. The idea that I am the boss and you have to report to me and you have to give me a share of your earnings. That's Mafia style. And the judge even spelled it like an Italian would. Petroni with an e. So can you really celebrate something if it's built straight up on exploitation?
- [29:49]
Eric Bland
During the nine months Greg Leone spent in federal prison, Eric Bland visited him several times. It broke Eric's heart to see his friend locked up, away from his family and friends. When Greg was finally released, he went straight back to work running his restaurants. But by now, everyone knew that Greg had worked with the feds to bring down Sheriff Metz. He was no longer the darling of local law enforcement. When you say that like he no longer had the support of law enforcement, what did that look like?
- [30:21]
Greg Leone
You could tell there wasn't as many law enforcement in his restaurants. Or if Greg and I were out, you could tell we would get looks from law enforcement in a different way. At the state fair, not as many law enforcement were coming to his trailer for food. And they get free food. They get free food.
- [30:40]
Eric Bland
Law enforcement weren't the only ones to turn on Greg. The local government also considered him Persona non grata. Eric remembers the struggles Greg faced trying to build a new restaurant in Red Bank, a fast growing suburb outside Columbia.
- [30:54]
Greg Leone
We used to be able to Open a restaurant. Curb cuts, no problem. Dot. We get the permit, we pull the permit, we get sewer and water. I can get us to the top of the food chain. Now we're building a new restaurant, and it's a nightmare. Our plans are not approved. Applications for permits are sitting on someone's desk. They're making us put in a retention pond. So ridiculously far away.
- [31:22]
Eric Bland
Greg owned multiple properties in Lexington county, including a 30 acre farm where he raised chickens and horses. In the wake of the bribery scandal, these too came under investigation.
- [31:34]
Greg Leone
Department of Natural Resources came in and were going to shut down his farm. He had too many horses per acre. They looked at his chickens. There are too many of them. You got to thin out the herd. You got to have more grass for your horses. Nobody was better to his animals than Greg. And I'm just telling you that what he fed him, the grain and everything, it was from all different angles. Waste. Every week, I would be dealing with municipal problems on every one of Greg's properties. Nobody came outright and said, we're gonna screw Greg Leone. But you saw it happening in real time. Okay? You understand what I mean?
- [32:14]
Eric Bland
Given the roadblocks Greg faced trying to build new restaurants and manage his land, you'd expect his existing businesses would be targeted, too, especially since he kept employing undocumented workers. But that didn't happen. The San Jose restaurants stayed open. No raids, no closures.
- [32:32]
Greg Leone
They still didn't come in because so many Lexingtonian citizens love the food. You come to these restaurants on a Friday night. I mean, it's 50 deep out the door. So nobody was going to shut down the Mexican restaurants.
- [32:45]
Eric Bland
By February of 2016, Greg Leone had regained his footing. To Eric, he seemed like his old self. Manning the grill on game days, cooking dozens of pounds of shrimp and chicken breast for anyone who showed up.
- [32:59]
Greg Leone
And then this, you know, just once in a lifetime event happens, and I was knee deep in it.
- [33:08]
Eric Bland
Next time on Gone Southern. I want to state your emergency. I stopped my wife in her lover. I'm sorry, what's going. I stopped my wife in her lover.
- [33:19]
Greg Leone
Dude.
- [33:28]
Eric Bland
If you have information, story tips, or feedback you'd like to share with the Gone south team, please email us@gonesouthpodcastmail.com that's gonesouthpodcastmail.com and for bonus content, you can follow us on Facebook, TikTok and instagram @Gone Southpodcast. You can also sign up for our newsletter on substack. Gone south with Jed Lipinski. Gone south is an Odyssey original podcast. It's created written and narrated by me, Jed Lipinski. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman, Matty Sprung, Kaiser, Tom Lipinski, Lloyd Lockridge, and me. Our story editors are Tom Lipinski, Maddy Sprunkheiser and Joel Lovell. Gone south is edited by Chris Basel and Perry Crowell. It's mixed and mastered by Chris Chris Basel. Production support from Ian Mont and Sean Cherry. Special thanks to J.D. crowley, Leah Rees, Dennis, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff.
- [34:37]
Courtney Harrell
Imagine if you could ask someone anything you wanted about their finances. How much do you make? Who paid for that fancy dinner? What did your house actually cost? On every episode of what We Spend, a different guest opens up their wallets, opens up their lives, really, and tells us all about their finances. For one week, they tell us everything they spend their money on.
- [34:59]
Eric Bland
My son slammed like $6 worth of.
- [35:02]
Gustavo Arellano
Blueberries in five minutes.
- [35:03]
Courtney Harrell
This is a podcast about all the ways money comes into our lives and then leaves again. Which of course we all have a lot of feelings about.
- [35:12]
Greg Leone
I really want these things.
- [35:13]
Eric Bland
I want to own a house. I want to have a child.
- [35:15]
Courtney Harrell
But this morning I really wanted a coffee. Because whatever you are buying or not buying or saving or spending, at the end of the day, money is always about more than your balance. I'm Courtney Harrell and this is what We Spend. Listen to and follow what We Spend and Odyssey Original podcast available now. Wherever you get your podcast.