S4|E4: Interview With A Serial Killer

Summary

Gone South - Season 4, Episode 4: Interview With A Serial Killer

Release Date: October 23, 2024

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Overview

In the poignant episode titled "Interview With A Serial Killer," Gone South explores the harrowing journey of Julie Ray, a woman wrongfully convicted of murdering her 10-year-old son, Joel. The episode delves into the intricate relationship between Julie's case and the confessions of serial killer Tommy Lynn Sells. Host Jed Lipinski presents a narrative that intertwines crime, justice, and the depths of human nature, highlighting the profound impact of one author's determination to uncover the truth.

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Introduction to Julie Ray's Case

The episode begins with Diane Fanning, a seasoned true crime author, recounting how she stumbled upon Julie Ray's case while watching a 2020 episode of the news magazine show 20/20. Intrigued by the suspicious circumstances surrounding Ray's conviction, Diane senses inconsistencies in the prosecutor's argument.

• Notable Quote:

  "The prosecutor just didn't seem right... I was very skeptical listening to her story."
  — Diane Fanning [02:53]

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Diane Fanning's Encounter with Tommy Lynn Sells

Diane's expertise in criminal psychology leads her to Tommy Lynn Sells, a prolific serial killer with over 50 confessed murders across multiple states. Recognizing similarities between Sells' methods and the details of Julie Ray's case, Diane reaches out to him, initiating a complex relationship that becomes central to the episode's narrative.

• Notable Quote:

  "I have, for a long time in my life, believed in this saying, feel the fear and do it anyway... This is my big chance to actually write a book."
  — Tommy Lynn Sells [15:58]

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Building a Connection with the Killer

Diane's numerous visits to Sells reveal a man capable of both gruesome brutality and unexpected charm. Through their interactions, Sells offers detailed accounts of his crimes, some of which align disturbingly with Julie Ray's case. Diane grapples with the ethical and emotional complexities of engaging with a convicted killer to seek justice for an innocent woman.

• Notable Quote:

  "He's a psychopath... a liar, and he will say things for his own benefit a lot of times that have no connection to reality."
  — Diane Fanning [23:45]

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The Breakthrough: Linking Sells to Julie Ray's Murder

Diane incorporates Sells' confession into her book, which catches the attention of Bill Clutter, a private investigator involved with the Illinois Innocence Project. Clutter's investigation uncovers witness testimonies that place Sells in Lawrenceville, Illinois, around the time of Joel Ray's murder, providing tangible evidence to challenge Julie's wrongful conviction.

• Notable Quote:

  "His confession matched Julie's account of that night to a tee."
  — Bill Clutter [30:53]

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Legal Battle and Exoneration

Armed with new evidence from Sells' confession and corroborating witness statements, Diane and Clutter push for a retrial. Despite initial resistance from the prosecution, the Illinois appeals court grants a new trial. The subsequent trial, bolstered by Sells' detailed confession and fresh testimonies, culminates in Julie Ray's exoneration.

• Notable Quote:

  "When the jurors came back 'not guilty,' I thought my heart was going to explode."
  — Diane Fanning [36:05]

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A Moment of Healing: Diane Meets Julie Ray

Five years after the exoneration, Diane finally meets Julie Ray, marking a deeply emotional reconciliation. Their meeting symbolizes triumph over injustice and underscores the profound personal impact of Diane's relentless pursuit of truth.

• Notable Quote:

  "We just embraced, and I don't know how long we hugged... I’d done all these things to try to get her out of prison."
  — Tommy Lynn Sells [37:15]

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Aftermath and Continued Pursuits

Julie Ray receives compensation for her wrongful conviction, but Diane's connection with Tommy Lynn Sells remains unresolved. Even after Sells' execution in 2014, Diane continues her dedication to uncovering truths behind wrongful convictions, solidifying her role as a crucial advocate for justice.

• Notable Quote:

  "I couldn’t help myself... some people would have told me that was the smart thing to do, to ignore all of this."
  — Tommy Lynn Sells [40:12]

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Key Insights and Themes

1. Justice and Redemption: The episode highlights the arduous journey toward exonerating an innocent individual, emphasizing the systemic challenges within the criminal justice system.

2. Human Nature and Morality: Through the interactions between Diane and Sells, the narrative explores the complexities of morality, empathy, and the capacity for both good and evil within individuals.

3. The Role of Advocacy: Diane Fanning's unwavering commitment underscores the significant impact that dedicated individuals can have in rectifying miscarriages of justice.

4. Psychological Depth of Criminals: The nuanced portrayal of Tommy Lynn Sells provides a window into the mind of a serial killer, illustrating the thin line between manipulation and genuine remorse.

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Conclusion

"Gone South" masterfully intertwines true crime with deep psychological exploration, presenting a story of wrongful conviction, relentless pursuit of truth, and the intricate dance between victim and perpetrator. Through Diane Fanning's journey, listeners gain invaluable insights into the human spirit's resilience and the intricate workings of the criminal justice system.

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Notable Quotes Summary

• Diane Fanning:
  "The prosecutor just didn't seem right... I was very skeptical listening to her story." [02:53]

• Tommy Lynn Sells:
  "I have, for a long time in my life, believed in this saying, feel the fear and do it anyway... This is my big chance to actually write a book." [15:58]

• Diane Fanning:
  "He's a psychopath... a liar, and he will say things for his own benefit a lot of times that have no connection to reality." [23:45]

• Bill Clutter:
  "His confession matched Julie's account of that night to a tee." [30:53]

• Diane Fanning:
  "When the jurors came back 'not guilty,' I thought my heart was going to explode." [36:05]

• Tommy Lynn Sells:
  "We just embraced, and I don't know how long we hugged... I’d done all these things to try to get her out of prison." [37:15]

• Tommy Lynn Sells:
  "I couldn’t help myself... some people would have told me that was the smart thing to do, to ignore all of this." [40:12]

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a testament to the power of perseverance, the importance of critical thinking in legal proceedings, and the profound effects that one person's dedication can have on the lives of others. "Interview With A Serial Killer" not only narrates a gripping true crime story but also invites listeners to reflect on broader societal issues related to justice and human psychology.

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Transcript

[Jenna Fischer]

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[Diane Fanning]

On the night of May 31, 2002, Diane Fanning was sitting in her living room flipping through channels on TV when she landed on the news magazine show 20 20.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

And the show looked interesting. Of course we had a woman claiming she was innocent and her family saying she was innocent and her friends and her lawyers. But you know, honestly, that's the kind of thing that you read about all the time from people who've been convicted. It just doesn't ring true initially and I was very skeptical listening to her story.

[Diane Fanning]

The episode Diane was watching concerned a woman named Julie Ray. Julie was from Lawrenceville, Illinois. Two months earlier she had been convicted of stabbing her 10 year old son Joel to death. She'd been sentenced to 65 years in prison. Julie was a 28 year old PhD student and single mom at the time of Joel's death. She said an intruder had broken into the house around 4am and fatally stabbed her son with a knife taken from her kitchen. But authorities found her story suspicious. They'd found no evidence of a break in at trial. Her ex husband painted her as unstable and emotionally volatile. The two were engaged in a messy custody dispute. The lead prosecutor argued that she'd killed Joel in an act of vengeance. But as Diane Fanning watched the episode, she spotted some flaws in the prosecutor's argument.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

The prosecutor just didn't seem right. He talked about Things never happening. Like no one ever takes a weapon from your home and uses it against you. He also talked about how someone doesn't just come and run away without killing all the witnesses. Well, I was working on a book about Tommy Lynn Sells at that time, and quite honestly, he did that a lot.

[Diane Fanning]

Diane's the author of 15 true crime books and 11 mystery novels. Back in 2002, she was just finishing her book about the American serial killer and drifter Tommy Lynn Sells. Diane had spent months interviewing Sells. By then, he'd confessed to more than 50 murders across a dozen states in the 80s and 90s. Diane knew that he often targeted children, entered homes between 3 and 4am and used knives that he'd found in the kitchen. And while Sells was an unusually prolific and sadistic killer, his behavior wasn't entirely unique.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I started thinking, well, this prosecutor doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't have a grasp of people like cells who don't really have any genuine motive and come in and kill people.

[Diane Fanning]

In researching her book, Diane had talked with a lot of Texas Rangers who'd spent their careers tracking serial killers.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

The Texas Rangers told me that if you knew how many people like cells were roaming across the country, it would blow the skirt up over your head. So I figured there was a lot of possible suspects out there.

[Diane Fanning]

After the show ended, Diane wrote a letter to Tommy Lynn Sells. She told him about the 2020 episode and how short sighted the prosecutor was. She intentionally left out details of the crime, like the date, the town where it occurred, and the names of the people involved. She was curious how he'd respond when.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I got his letter back. Sells asked me if the crime I was talking about was committed two days earlier than the crime he committed in Springfield, Missouri. Like, was it maybe on the 13th of that month? And so I didn't remember off the top of my head the date of Joel's murder. So I had to look that up. And when I found out it was October 13th, my head was swimming.

[Diane Fanning]

Tommy Lynn Sells was on death row when the 2020 episode aired. Prisoners on death row have no access to television, meaning Sells couldn't have learned about the date of the murder on tv. Diane wondered, how would he have known the date of Joel's murder? She realized that a woman may have been sitting in prison for a murder that Tommy Lynn Sells had committed.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

You know, here I was holding this piece of information in my hand that could help a woman who was going through the worst thing any woman ever went through. To lose your child to an act of violence and then have the finger of blame pointed right in your face. I just was in shock.

[Diane Fanning]

Diane had thought she was done visiting Tommy Lynn Sells. But she decided she needed to visit him one last time. I'm Jed Lipinski. This has gone south. The story of Diane Fanning's relationship with serial killer Tommy Lynn Sells also began with a TV show. This one was an episode of 48 Hours. It centered on the 10 year old girl from Del Rio, Texas who'd finally brought Sells to justice.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

At the time I was living in Texas and this was a Texas crime, the final one he committed. And so that interested me. So I started watching the story and what really got to me was not Cells, but a girl named Crystal Searles. And she was amazing. She was just 10 years old. She watched Cells sexually assault and murder her friend in bed. And then he moved to her and slit her throat and left her for dead.

[Diane Fanning]

But Crystal Searles didn't die. She played dead until Sells fled the scene. Then she walked half a mile down the road in the dark to a neighbor's house. The man called police. Crystal's vocal cords had been severed. She couldn't speak. But with her help, a forensic artist managed to sketch a likeness of Sells. The cops arrested him two days later.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

And it was very fortunate because he had planned to kill a lawyer that night before he left town. So that person's life was saved and who knows how many more people, all because of little Crystal Searles.

[Diane Fanning]

Sells was brought to the Del Rio Sheriff's station. Under interrogation, he not only admitted to the murder he'd just committed, he started talking about all the other murders he'd done.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

So Sells said, I guess I should tell you about all the others. Which to the investigator from the sheriff's department was a huge shock. He confessed to about 50, and it was kind of frightening to know that for two decades he'd been roaming from one side of the country to the other to just kill people for foolish reasons he made up.

[Diane Fanning]

In the days afterward, she couldn't stop thinking about Crystal Searles. Her story reminded Diane of a defining incident in her own life. When Diane was nine years old, she and a friend were walking down a country road in their small town when a car stopped to ask for directions.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

So my friend and I knew where he wanted to go and we tried to explain to him how to get there. And he said, I'm just not understanding this. Would you come look at my map and show me on my map? So for one I was very proud of the fact that I could read a map at that age, so that sounded like a nice challenge to me. So he threw open his door and I walked up to his car. But instead of a map, he was exposing himself, and he lashed out and grabbed my upper arm and started pulling on it. I was trying to pull back and get away from him, but I was just no match for his strength. Then, fortuitously, another car came up over that hill and laid on its horn. He let go of me and zoomed off with his car door still open. At that time in my life, I was a big fan of the weekly television show Dragnet. And I knew exactly what Sergeant Friday wanted me to do. So I memorized the man's license plate number. I kept running it over in my head as I went home again and again and again. And I told my mother. She called the police and reported the license plate number. And a couple of days later, they found him. And in the trunk of his car, they found the evidence that he had sexually assaulted and murdered a girl just a month before. I couldn't believe that happened to me. And I was left with two big questions in my mind. Why me? Why did he want to make a victim out of me? And the other one was, how could anybody, any human being, do this?

[Diane Fanning]

Diane became obsessed with answering those questions. She started going to the public library and immersing herself in books on criminal psychology.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

A lot of it was kind of above my head, but I just plowed through it as best as I could with the dictionary by my side. And it did get me quite interested in the criminal mind. And I kept reading about that through the rest of my life.

[Diane Fanning]

All of that reading eventually translated into writing. A desire to understand the mind of a killer and capture the truth of it on the page. Diane wrote a handful of unpublished mystery novels before getting a contract to write a true account of Tommy Lynn Sells Life. Not long after that, she wrote him a letter asking if she could visit him in prison cells. Agreed.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

And I went in there with the ignorance of an innocent. I had no idea how terribly dark this was going to get.

[Jenna Fischer]

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[Tommy Lynn Sells]

Guess who's sitting next to me?

[Jenna Fischer]

Steve in the studio. Every Wednesday we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the Office and our friendship with brand new guests and we'll be digging into our mail bag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Ladies 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus on Mondays we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Diane Fanning]

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[Tommy Lynn Sells]

Yeah.

[Diane Fanning]

What is it about you that allowed you to do that?

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I have, for a long time in my life, believed in this saying, feel the fear and do it anyway. That if you take no risks in life, you will never get any reward. So that was what was driving me. This is my big chance to actually write a book, which I'd been wanting to do for a long, long time. And that was the passion that drove me.

[Diane Fanning]

Diane's visit was the first of many she would make to see Tommy Lincells in the coming months.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

At first, we didn't get into details, so it was kind of manageable. But then I learned I had to hide what I was thinking. And this was particularly difficult for me because I've always been a heart on my sleeve kind of person. So when he tells me horrible things, I have to act like it's not impacting me until I get away from him. And that was probably the hardest part of all.

[Diane Fanning]

Diane sat and listened as Sells recounted in graphic detail how he had committed his crimes. He'd killed entire families and showed no remorse. And yet, like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, Tommy Lyn Sells had a certain charm.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

Sometimes he would give the most gruesome details, and then other times I'd come in there and all he'd want to do is tell me jokes, and I couldn't get him down to the serious business. There were a couple of times like that, and he has a certain rough country boy kind of charm that you find yourself laughing with him. You can't help yourself.

[Diane Fanning]

Even so, the majority of her visits to cells were almost unbearably dark.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

And some days it was. I would cry on my ride home all the way back, because it would have been so freaking depressing. But I had a job to do, and I just kept at it.

[Diane Fanning]

What did your husband think about this, Your decision to write a book about Tommy Lincells and you visiting this prisoner, this serial killer in prison?

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

Well, my husband was. He was very supportive, very proud of me, but a little bit freaked out. But what really did it in is Sals would periodically send me artwork that he did. And then on Mother's Day in 2002, he sent me the sweetest picture of two teddy bears, one on either side of a heart, and it had Wayne and Diane written on it. I don't remember telling him my husband's name, but it must have slipped out somewhere, and that really freaked my husband out.

[Diane Fanning]

Not long after the creepy Mother's Day card, the Texas Rangers called. They Told Diane that Sells was being transferred to a hospital in Galveston not far from her home and she needed a getaway plan in the event that he escaped.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

And I thought, well, why would he come for me? So I took some of the letters he had sent me and I went to see a psychologist and I called and talked to a forensic psychiatrist. And after sending some of the letters to them, they both said to me, oh yes, the Rangers are right, he is coming for you if he ever escapes. And he said, he's not coming to hurt you. And I started to breathe a sigh of relief. And then they said, but he will be coming to get you to run away with him. When you don't, that's when he'll hurt you. So that was kind of. We all went into a weird mode then. It was a little scary.

[Diane Fanning]

By now Diane felt she had enough material for her book. She was emotionally wrung out and ready to end her relationship with Sells. It was around this time that Diane saw the 2020 episode about the Julie Ray case. As we mentioned at the top of the show, the case centered on the murder of Julie Ray's 10 year old son Joel. The crime took place on October 13, 1997 in Lawrenceville, Illinois. As the 2020 episode laid out, Julie had lost custody of Joel after she and her husband, a local cop, got divorced a few years earlier. Julie's ex husband believed she'd killed their son in revenge. In support of his theory, he said Julie had a thing for the number 13, which to him accounted for the fact that Joel had been stabbed 13 times on October 13. The lead prosecutor was equally convinced of Julie's guilt. He told 20 20, no one in this world except Julie Ray fits the profile of the killer. The cops had found no evidence of a break in. They'd found no stranger's DNA or fingerprints in the house. The prosecutor dismissed Julie's claim that a masked intruder had broken into her home around 4am, grabbed a knife from the butcher block in the kitchen and used it to stab her son for no apparent reason. He called her story, quote, total nonsense. Of course Diane Fanning knew that Tommy Lynn Sells had killed people in exactly this way and for trivial reasons only he understood. So she wrote him a letter about it. When Sells wrote back wondering if the murder in question had occurred on October 13, Diane thought SELs might be the killer. But she wasn't totally sold.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

There was another part of me at the same time that thought he could just be jerking my chain. He could have just made a lucky guess or someone could have told him about this.

[Diane Fanning]

So she decided to visit Sells in prison one more time. When she asked him about Joel's murder, he recounted the events in his emotionless, matter of fact way. According to Sells, he'd run into Julie and her son in downtown Lawrenceville earlier that day.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

He talked about Julie Ray being rude to him in a convenience store. And so I imagine he said something ugly, and she just didn't respond to him. But it really ticked him off because he didn't like to be ignored or overlooked or dismissed in any way, and he took offense at it. So he followed her home and waited until the middle of the night. He then talked about breaking into the house at night and going to the kitchen and pulling a knife out of the block or out of a drawer and going into the first bedroom door he entered. And there's Joel.

[Diane Fanning]

Sells told Diane he'd killed Joel so that he wouldn't grow up to be rude like his mother. As he was leaving the room, he ran into Julie in the hallway. The two of them struggled. Sells said he dropped the knife and ran out the back door.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

He had a hoodie on which he had pulled this drawstring tight, so you could hardly see anything of his face. And once he got off of her property, he threw down the hood, and he was standing underneath the streetlight. And at that point, Julie got a good look at him.

[Diane Fanning]

What was your reaction when he told that story to you in prison?

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I knew that he was a psychopath. And like all psychopaths, he is a manipulator. He is a liar, and he will say things for his own benefit a lot of times that have no connection to reality.

[Diane Fanning]

Also, Diane had to wonder if Sels wasn't telling her all this so they'd have a reason to continue meeting.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

But I can usually pick up when there's at least some truth in what he was saying by the way he delivers it. And in that case, I did. I did think that at least some of what he was saying was true.

[Diane Fanning]

Whether Sells was lying or telling the truth, it was still a confession. And yet Diane wasn't able to record it.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

When I went to death row to talk to Tommy Lynn Sells, I was not allowed to bring a tape recorder. I was not even allowed to take paper and a pencil. So the only way I could preserve the confession he delivered to me was to get out to my car as fast as I could and start writing it down. And the second I got out on the sidewalk, I ran over to the parking lot, jumped in my car, and started writing like a maniac to make sure I got the pertinent information down.

[Diane Fanning]

Diane now faced a choice what to do with this information. Her first thought was to call the producer of the 2020 episode and get their read on it. And so when you do talk to the 2020 producer, what does she say?

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

She was kind of blown away by what I had learned and she asked me if I'd contacted anyone else. And I told her no, I hadn't. And I just didn't know where to turn because I didn't think the prosecutor was a good place to go. And she said, absolutely not. He will file it away. He will look for ways to disprove it if anyone brings it up to him and it'll never see the light of day again. But yet I knew that this information couldn't just be buried in my files. There was a woman facing 65 years in prison for murdering her 10 year old boy. I had a child. I could not imagine losing my child to an act of violence and then being even suspected of being responsible for it. I knew I couldn't just drop it.

[Diane Fanning]

So Diane decided to take a chance and make Selza's confession a part of her book.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I thought if he had done it, there would be someone out there who would be able to pick up the breadcrumbs I put on the trail towards Tommy Lynn sells and do something with them. Somebody who knew more than I did about how to get involved in a case of false conviction. So that's what I did. I just wrote it into the book.

[Diane Fanning]

Diane's book, through the Window, was published in April 2003. She released it into the world like a message in a bottle. She hoped it would fall into the right hands.

[Jenna Fischer]

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[Diane Fanning]

Three months after Diane's book came out, a private investigator named Bill Clutter was hanging out at a barbecue in Springfield, Illinois, when one of the other guests told him about a book she'd just read. In it, a prisoner from Texas had confessed to killing Julie Ray's son, Joel.

[Bill Clutter]

So one of the questions I asked was, is it Tommy Lynn Sells?

[Diane Fanning]

As it happened, Bill was very familiar with Tommy Lynn Sells. He'd first learned about him after his arrest in Del Rio three years earlier. Bill had read the newspaper accounts of his confessions and his pattern of entering homes around 4am and using knives he found in the kitchen. A few months later, Julie Ray's defense attorney had actually reached out to Bill. He was a founder of the downstate Illinois Innocence Project, and she thought he might be able to help. She described what Julie said happened that night, that an assailant had broken into her house around 4am and used a knife from her kitchen to stab her son.

[Bill Clutter]

When Julie's attorney told me those details of that mo, I knew that it fit what I knew of Tommy Lynn Sells, and so I expected to be appointed on that case.

[Diane Fanning]

But Bill was never appointed. Julie's defense team lacked the resources to hire him, and Bill was overwhelmed with wrongful conviction cases. Julie had been tried and convicted before anyone could check into Selz whereabouts around the time of Joel's murder. After the 4th of July barbecue, Bill drove to Barnes and Noble and bought Diane's book. He was stunned by how closely Sells confession matched Julie's account of that night. He immediately began looking for witnesses who'd seen Sells around the time of the murder. It only took a few days to find one. His name was Alan Berkshire.

[Bill Clutter]

He had seen this drifter in Lawrenceville the weekend that Joel was killed, and it was so unusual because he's at the Lawrenceville diner with his son Rusty, who was about 11 years old. And this drifter seemed to be preoccupied with his son, wanting to engage his son in conversation. And Berkshire says, well, you know, I was a little bit curious, so I asked this guy some questions. I asked him where he was from. He said he was from St. Louis. And so he had about a 45 minute interaction with this guy.

[Diane Fanning]

Bill videotaped his conversation with Alan Berkshire. He sent a copy of it to a Texas ranger who'd investigated cells after his arrest.

[Bill Clutter]

And he said, I just watched your interview of Alan Berkshire, and it sent the hairs on the back of my neck up that he described Tommy Lynn Sells to a t. Alan Berkshire told.

[Diane Fanning]

Bill that he'd reported his encounter to the sheriff's office after learning of Joel's death. But after studying the case file, Bill realized that his tip was never pursued. In the following weeks, Bill found other witnesses who told him similar stories.

[Bill Clutter]

There were other witnesses, too, that provided information to the sheriff that never made it into a report. It was never passed on to state police. And, you know, it's just classic tunnel vision where they had made up their mind that Julie did it and they weren't going to look at other evidence that went against that theory.

[Diane Fanning]

After identifying the witnesses, Bill finally reached out to Diane.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

Bill called me and told me that he had read my book, and he had long suspected that Sells was someone who could be involved in Joel's death. And he told me about the people that he found in the small town of Lawrenceville that had seen cells there on that weekend. I was literally bouncing off the ceiling, and I was 100% convinced that Julie was innocent and had been wrongfully convicted. And I was just as convinced that Tommy Lynn Sells murdered Joel.

[Diane Fanning]

Bill Clutter had worked dozens of wrongful conviction cases. He urged Diane to testify about Selz confession before the Illinois prisoner review board in Chicago. He thought her testimony could help prove Julie's innocence. So Diane flew to Chicago. By now, the media had learned of Selz confession. The prosecutor in Julie's case had been quick to dismiss it, calling Diane's book, quote, bad fiction and a bunch of silliness. At the hearing before the prisoner review board, he openly attacked Diane's credibility.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

Before I got up to give my testimony, the prosecuting attorney was standing up there calling me a housewife who was a pen pal with serial killers. Now, I always had a full time job. I wasn't just cooking dinner and vacuuming the house. So it was a little offensive. And I think it was Intentionally offensive.

[Diane Fanning]

Based on the new evidence provided by Diane Fanning and Bill Clutter, an Illinois appeals court judge ordered a retrial in Julie Ray's case. Northwestern University's center on Wrongful Convictions got involved. Diane worked with them to build their defense.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I sent them a mountain of files that I had, including letters written by Sells, letters by other people written to Sells. I had just so much stuff that he had given me.

[Diane Fanning]

A new trial date was set. Julie's new defense rested largely on Sells confession to the crime. But it was still a shaky foundation for a case. Sells had confessed to you in prison, and you'd scribbled some notes down on a piece of paper, but that's not, you know, a written confession, per se. At what point do you get cells to make a confession to law enforcement that they could use at trial?

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

I was working on cells, trying to talk him into talking to law enforcement, trying to raise up some shred of empathy in him to feel sorry for this woman who was accused of killing the boy that he killed. And he just didn't have any empathy. And I convinced him to talk to Bill Clutter, and then with Bill's help, we finally convinced him to talk to law enforcement.

[Diane Fanning]

Law enforcement interviewed Tommy Lincells at length, eliciting the same confession he'd given to Diane. The interview was later played for the jury at Julie Ray's retrial, which lasted nine days.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

And the jurors went into deliberations. And it didn't take them very long to come out and say not guilty. I thought my heart was going to explode. I was laughing and crying at the same time to know that I'd actually done something that made a difference. I don't think there's any other thing that I have done that was more important than that.

[Diane Fanning]

By the time the verdict was read, Diane had spent years invested in Julie Ray's case, but she had never actually met Julie. Her lawyers had advised against it to avoid any appearance of collusion. It wasn't until five years later, when the Innocence Project gave Diane the Defenders of the Innocent Award, that the two finally met.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

So the desire to meet her had just been building and building and building. And finally when I got to meet her, I saw her, and I could feel the tears forming in my eyes. And I rushed towards her, and she. She came towards me, and we just embraced, and I don't know how long we hugged. And I'll never forget standing there with her for the first time. I mean, I'd worked all this long on this book And I'd done all these other things to try to get her out of prison. And now she was standing in front of me with a smile on her face.

[Diane Fanning]

Julie Ray was officially exonerated in 2010. She was awarded $87,000 as compensation for her wrongful conviction. But Diane's relationship with Tommy Lynn Sells didn't end with Julie's exoneration. She remained in touch with him for years, hoping he might confess to other murders around the country.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

He wrote me one more time asking me if I was claim his body when he was executed. And, you know, I said, sales? No, I just can't afford it. I mean, it's. Even to have you cremated would be too much to spend. Sure, I had the money, but it wasn't something I wanted to spend the money on, cremating a serial killer. So, you know, I told him no, I couldn't do that. And that was the last I heard from him.

[Diane Fanning]

Tommy Lynn Sells was executed in 2014 in Huntsville, Texas. Diane would go on to publish over two dozen true crime books and mystery novels. When she thinks back on the role she played in Julie Ray's exoneration, she sees it as a kind of miracle. It's interesting to me because on one hand, it does seem pretty remarkable and like a miracle. And at the same time, it's not as if you were some passive participant. This happened because of who you are and what you did.

[Tommy Lynn Sells]

You know, Yes, I could have ignored all of this and some people would have told me that was the smart thing to do, to ignore all of this. It's not your business. You're just reporting on this stuff. Don't get involved. But I couldn't help myself. It's like when I interview victims and friends. I have to feel their emotion and I can't compartmentalize it. Somewhere I cry with them, I get angry with them. Because this kind of human trauma is so defining to those people's lives. I can't help but being exposed to it and having it define mine as well.

[Diane Fanning]

If you have information, story tips, or feedback you'd like to share with the Gone south team, please email [e-mail] that's Gone South. Podcastmail.com Gone south is an Odyssey original podcast. It's created, written and narrated by me, Jed Lipinski. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman, Maddie Sprung Keyser, Tom Lipinski, Lloyd Lockridge, and me. Our story editors are Maddie Sprung Keyser and Tom Lipinski. Gone south is edited, mixed and mastered by Chris Basil and Andy Jaskow. Production support from Ian Mont and Sean Cherry. Special thanks to J.D. crowley, Leah Reese, Dennis, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schoof. If you want to hear more of Gone south, please take a few seconds to rate and review the show. It really helps.

[Jenna Fischer]

You might think financial crime is all about money, but sometimes it ends in murder. I'm Nicole Lapin, host of Money Crimes, a crime House original podcast. Each episode features a thrilling story about the dark side of finance and how to protect yourself from it. Follow and listen to Money Crimes and Odyssey Podcast in partnership with Crimehouse Studios. Available on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.