Carlos Slim Helú: Telecom titan

Summary

Summary of "Good Bad Billionaire" – Episode: Carlos Slim Helú: Telecom Titan

Release Date: November 18, 2024
Host/Author: BBC World Service – Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng

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Introduction

In this episode of Good Bad Billionaire, hosts Simon Jack, BBC’s Business Editor, and journalist Zing Tsjeng delve into the expansive empire of Carlos Slim Helú, one of the world's wealthiest individuals. They explore his rise to prominence, the vast scope of his business interests, and the profound impact he has had on Mexico’s economy and society. Ultimately, Simon and Zing assess whether Slim embodies the traits of a "Good," "Bad," or "Just Another Billionaire."

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Early Life and Foundations

Carlos Slim was born in 1940 in Mexico City to Lebanese Christian immigrants. His father's success in running a general store and investing in commercial real estate provided Slim with a solid financial foundation from a young age.

Simon Jack remarks, “By the time Carlos came along, his dad was a rich businessman with a significant property portfolio” (05:03). This environment fostered an early appreciation for financial management, as Slim was taught to meticulously record every purchase, a habit that would later underpin his business strategies.

At 10 years old, Slim opened his first checking account but soon shifted to purchasing government savings bonds for better returns. By age 12, he ventured into the stock market, buying shares in a Mexican bank—mirroring the investment strategies of other billionaires like Ray Dalio (06:22). Tragically, his father’s death when Slim was 13 had a profound impact, leading him to retreat for two years before excelling academically and re-entering the business world with vigor (06:54).

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Building the Business Empire

Following his education in engineering at the National Autonomous University of Mexico, Slim established his own stock brokerage and real estate company in his mid-20s. Zing Singh highlights, “So clearly destined for something in the markets” (11:23). His marriage to Sumaiya, whom he met at 24, was both a personal and business partnership, leading to the formation of GrupoCasa, a conglomerate that would become the cornerstone of his vast empire (09:32).

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Telmex and Telecom Dominance

A pivotal moment in Slim’s career was the acquisition of Telmex in 1990 during Mexico’s privatization wave under President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. Telmex, the national phone monopoly, was struggling with poor infrastructure, offering only five lines per hundred people—half the global average at the time (21:10). Slim invested $1.8 billion, securing a 20% stake and eventually becoming its chairman.

Within a year, Telmex's net profit surged by 44% (22:10). Slim’s strategic foresight led to the creation of AmericaMovil, a subsidiary for mobile telecommunications, which dominated over 70% of Mexico's cell phone market. By the late 2000s, Telmex controlled over 90% of Mexico's phone lines, establishing Slim as a monopolistic force in the industry (25:09).

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Monopolistic Practices and Economic Impact

Slim's dominance led to significant criticism. The OECD estimated that his monopoly cost Mexico an additional $13 billion annually between 2005 and 2009 due to the lack of price competition (25:11). Zing Singh points out, “And in fact, it's one of the worst countries in the world in terms of competitiveness” (26:24). Moreover, environmental concerns arose from his investments in oil and mining, with his companies accused of causing substantial environmental damage (38:00).

Slim's monopolistic control not only stifled competition but also contributed to widening economic inequalities in Mexico. An Oxfam report highlighted that Slim's wealth equaled the total wealth of about 64 million Mexicans (37:13).

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Philanthropy and Social Responsibility

Despite his vast wealth, Slim maintains a modest lifestyle. He lives in the same house in Mexico City for decades, drives himself, and is known for his frugality—once haggling for $10 off a tie (02:56). His commitment to art is evident through the Museo Soumaya, named after his late wife, which houses an impressive collection of Michelangelo, Van Gogh, Renoir, and Rodin.

However, Slim has expressed skepticism about traditional philanthropy. He has stated, “I have no intention of going around like Santa Claus giving away my money” (40:18), emphasizing that he believes business activities and structural development, rather than charity, are the keys to solving societal issues. This perspective has led to debates on the effectiveness and sincerity of his philanthropic efforts.

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Power and Influence

Carlos Slim wields immense power within Mexico, often perceived as more influential than the country's president. His conglomerate accounts for a significant portion of Mexico’s advertising revenue, granting him substantial sway over media narratives. According to the Wall Street Journal, the Mexican Congress frequently dismissed legislation threatening Slim’s interests, underscoring his entrenched influence (27:04).

Slim's interactions on the global stage include partnerships and rivalries with figures like Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. Despite occasional turbulence, such as Trump dubbing him a “string-pulling manipulator” (42:10), Slim has maintained his stature by leveraging his vast resources and strategic investments.

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Legacy and Transformation of Mexico

Slim's legacy is twofold. On one hand, he has significantly modernized Mexico's telecommunications infrastructure, fostering economic growth. On the other, his monopolistic practices have perpetuated economic disparities and hindered competitive innovation.

The transformation of Centro Historico in Mexico City from a crime-ridden area to a vibrant, well-preserved district stands as a testament to Slim’s impact. Eduardo Porter of the New York Times likens Slim’s influence to that of historical industrialists like Rockefeller and Carnegie, emphasizing his profound footprint on Mexico’s development (43:46).

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Final Assessment: Good, Bad, or Just Another Billionaire

After a comprehensive evaluation, Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng conclude that Carlos Slim Helú leans towards being a "Bad Billionaire". Despite his remarkable business acumen and contributions to Mexico's infrastructure, his monopolistic control over the telecom industry and the resultant economic inequalities overshadow his philanthropic efforts.

Notable Assessment Points:

• Wealth: 9/10 (due to the immense accumulation relative to Mexico’s economy)
• Rags to Riches: 6/10 (benefiting from a supportive family background)
• Villainy: 8/10 (monopolistic practices and environmental impacts)
• Philanthropy: 4/10 (significant donations but skepticism about their efficacy)
• Power: 10/10 in Mexico, 8/10 globally
• Legacy: 9/10 in Mexico, 7/10 internationally

Overall Judgment: Bad Billionaire

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Conclusion

Carlos Slim Helú remains a towering figure in the global billionaire landscape, embodying both the heights of financial success and the complexities of ethical business practices. His story underscores the intricate balance between economic prowess and social responsibility, prompting listeners to ponder the true impact of immense wealth on society.

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For more episodes of "Good Bad Billionaire," tune in every Monday on the BBC World Service.

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Timestamp Reference:

• [05:03] – Slim’s father’s business influence
• [06:22] – Early financial investments
• [09:32] – Formation of GrupoCasa
• [11:23] – Diversified investment strategy
• [21:10] – Acquisition of Telmex
• [22:10] – Telmex’s profitability
• [25:09] – Market dominance statistics
• [26:24] – OECD’s economic impact report
• [38:00] – Environmental criticisms
• [40:18] – Philanthropy claims
• [42:10] – Relationship with Donald Trump
• [43:46] – Legacy comparison to Rockefeller

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Transcript

[Simon Jack]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Michael Lewis]

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite Moneyball, the Blind side and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states and ourselves. Join me and listen to against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeartradio. Open your free iHeart app and search against the Rules. Listen to against the rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Simon Jack]

Imagina tescucharto cancion favorita Como sifuera la primera VEZ te presentamos el toutal mentenuevo irrey maginado Nissan Kicks Consonido Bose Personal plus y bocinas en la parte superior de los hacientos para crear un experiencia tresiento se centa jamas haz escochado al guaci rimajina tumusica y tu forma de manejar descubre total Nissan Kicks A Nissan USA pun to con boces una marcar registrada de Bose Corporation.

[Zing Singh]

Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Each episode we pick a billionaire and we find out how they made their money.

[Simon Jack]

Then we judge them. Are they good, bad, or just another billionaire?

[Zing Singh]

My name is Zing Singh and I'm a journalist, author and podcaster.

[Simon Jack]

And I'm Simon Jack, the BBC's business editor.

[Zing Singh]

And on this episode we have Mr. Mexico himself.

[Simon Jack]

Exactly. It's very hard to walk out of the door in Mexico without putting money in this man's pockets. No slim pickings for this guy.

[Zing Singh]

No. And he is indeed called Slim. His name is Carlos Slim Elu. Although everyone just calls him Carlos Slim.

[Simon Jack]

Now 84 years old, Carlos Slim has been compared to the so called robber barons of the us. People like Rockefeller, Carnegie, JP Morgan. People with monopolies of certain industries.

[Zing Singh]

But he is just one man and his vast business empire is a conglomerate in every sense of the word. Hundreds of companies in construction, mining, oil, real estate, insurance, publishing, airlines, hotels. Oh my God, I'm running out of breath. But that is not the end of it.

[Simon Jack]

Your average Mexican interacts with one of his companies almost every day.

[Zing Singh]

And that is, by the way, 130 million people who wake up in a house heated by Slim's Oil, paid for by a mortgage at his bank. They shop in his department store, eat at his restaurant and smoke his cigarettes before driving home on roads built by him.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Such is his dominance that Mexico has sometimes been called Slimlandia.

[Zing Singh]

And in the late 2000s, he actually became the richest person in the world, a title he held for several years.

[Simon Jack]

I remember that moment when he was named as the richest person in the world because I thought, who the heck is this guy? I'd never heard of him. And there he is, edging out. Bill Gates.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, I think maybe the first and only Mexican to become the richest man in the world.

[Simon Jack]

But despite his vast wealth and he is a centibillionaire, that means he's got over $100 billion. He's described as frugal. He once apparently haggled with a store owner for several hours to get $10 off a tie.

[Zing Singh]

And he has lived in the same relatively modest six bedroom house for decades. He has actually said, the house where I was born in was better than the house where I now live.

[Simon Jack]

He actually drives himself around Mexico City, although of course, he is followed by a convoy of heavily armed bodyguards.

[Zing Singh]

And he does have an idea of a good time, which is smoking a Cuban cigar while reading about his hero, the Mongol warlord Genghis Khan.

[Simon Jack]

Hmm, interesting hero.

[Zing Singh]

That's one business mentor.

[Simon Jack]

And as the richest man in the world, back then he didn't even use a computer, much to the chagrin of Bill Gates, I'm sure, who he edged out. Instead, he used to keep track of his business dealings in notebooks.

[Zing Singh]

Now, his real extravagance only really comes down to art and artifacts. So if you step into Slim's office, you'll see Michelangelo, Van Gogh, Renoir and Rodin.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he's got so much, he has founded an art museum called Museo Soumaia to help house it. That's named after his wife, reportedly art collection worth a cool billion dollars.

[Zing Singh]

Now, as he mentioned, he's no longer the richest person in the world, but this year he's still saying pretty at number 14.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, that's partly because we've seen in other episodes the rise of the tech titans. So as they've got richer, he's slipped down the list. But as you say, still worth over 100 billion. And his most valuable business, the industry he's probably best known for, is the Latin American telecoms company, AmericaMovil.

[Zing Singh]

So he's so dominant in that market that he's widely been called a monopolist. And in fact, many blame Carlos for Mexico's slow economic development. Which we'll get into later.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, in a country where over a third of the population live in poverty. He's seen by some as a symbol of massive inequality.

[Zing Singh]

So is Carlos Slim good, bad or just another billionaire? We'll find out.

[Simon Jack]

Let's go back to the beginning. Let's take him from zero to a million.

[Zing Singh]

So Carlos Slim was born in Mexico City in 1940, the fifth of six children to Lebanese Christian immigrants.

[Simon Jack]

Before Carlos was born. His father opened a General Store in.

[Zing Singh]

1911, and that store was pretty successful. So his dad invested the profits in commercial real estate. And by the time Carlos came along, his dad was a rich businessman with a significant property portfolio.

[Simon Jack]

And like father, like son. The dad encouraged young Carlos to take an interest in his business, taught him how to read financial statements, keep records, and every Sunday he would give Carlos a 5 pace so allowance, telling him to record every purchase in one of those notebooks.

[Zing Singh]

Now, dear or dad would actually tell Carlos money that leaves the business evaporates.

[Simon Jack]

Which turned out to be very interesting because it was through the reinvestment of all those proceeds in more and bigger companies that is kind of the secret of his wealth.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, it really supercharged his finances. And Carlos actually still keeps the ledgers from his dad's store in his office, as well as his own childhood ledgers. You know, we mentioned as a billionaire, he still uses notebooks rather than computers. Clearly he's a man who prefers paper.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, at 10 years old he opened a checking account, a current account, but he quickly realized he wasn't getting much return on his deposit. So instead he bought government savings bonds. These are things that the government will issue. You can save money, they give you a rate of return and that money the government can use to spend. So we have the similar sort of thing here in the UK and you get a better rate of return than just leaving your money in the bank.

[Zing Singh]

But I'm going to guess that there are not a lot of 10 year olds in the UK currently investing in those.

[Simon Jack]

No. Unless their parents have done it for them. And by the age of 12, he made his first stock market investment buying shares in a Mexican bank. I was just talking to a billionaire called Ray Dalio who now runs the world's biggest hedge fund. Last week he said he made his first stock purchase at exactly the same age, age 12.

[Zing Singh]

So what is it about 12 year olds?

[Simon Jack]

12 year olds.

[Zing Singh]

Some 12 year olds are clearly just meant for business.

[Simon Jack]

But tragedy struck when Carlos was just 13. His father died from a heart attack.

[Zing Singh]

And it's obvious Carlos found his death extremely painful. He actually stopped socializing. He says he stayed in his Home.

[Simon Jack]

For two years, but he was smart. Two years later, he started high school. He bec top of his class, despite being bullied as the son of Lebanese migrants.

[Zing Singh]

Interesting background. Maybe that immigrant mentality pushed him to work hard, but, you know, he was still a fan of things like baseball. He traded baseball cards in the playground, he became a New York Yankees fan. And as an adult, he actually doesn't have that many hobbies apart from baseball. He's said to have a Moneyball memory for baseball stats, something he also uses in business.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, Moneyball, referring to that movie made about the way that manager came along and used stats to compile the best team he could for money. And it turned out to be a fantastic success.

[Zing Singh]

And also something used across different sports now. Like, you know, Premier League football.

[Simon Jack]

Exactly. He was a precocious investor. He attended his first AGM general meeting of shareholders as a teenager when he was interested in a mining company.

[Zing Singh]

By 17, his net worth was 32,000 pesos. Now, the average annual wage in Mexico at that time was roughly 10,000. So he's doing pretty well for himself as a teenager.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, if I can translate that into UK terms. The average annual salary in the UK is £35,000, give or take. So three times that would be £100,000. So at 17, he's doing pretty well.

[Zing Singh]

But he was also interested in further education, so he didn't drop out like most of our billionaires. He attended the National Autonomous University of Mexico, studying engineering.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he was a top student. He was even asked to teach some of the other students algebra. And he formed a student investment club with an entry requirement of a few hundred pesos. Think of book club, but you bring ideas to invest to the club rather than books.

[Zing Singh]

And also you have to pay a membership fee, which is quite canny business.

[Simon Jack]

So clearly destined for something in the markets. So he became a stockbroker after finishing his studies in what was a fledgling stock market in the early 1960s in.

[Zing Singh]

Mexico, he was part of a group of young stockbrokers who became known as los Casa Boceros, or the stock market boys. They would trade by day and play dominoes by night.

[Simon Jack]

A fellow Casa Bolceros said Carlos wasn't that interested in partying and trading. He never liked money as much as the rest of us. Weird. He just wanted to be a good businessman.

[Zing Singh]

And Carlos had read business guides, including how to Be Rich by J. Paul Getty, who was then the wealthiest man in the us that said one should cultivate a, quote, millionaire mentality by being always and above all, cost conscious and profit minded.

[Simon Jack]

So by his mid-20s, he opened his own stock brokerage firm and founded a real estate business. Its name was a combination of his and his future wife's name.

[Zing Singh]

Now Samaiya Dot, the love of his life, he met her when she was around 16 and he was 24 through their mums. But it seems like a kind of genuine love story. You know, pictures of the couple looking very old school school Hollywood glam, staring into each other's eyes. I mean, it kind of looks almost a little bit Addams Family like because Samaya has such a gigantic hairdo.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, it does look like the golden years of Hollywood there. So they married in 1966. At this point, he's 26 years old. They went on a fantastic honeymoon. England, Greece, New York, Naples, Spain, France. About 40 days, seeing different places, cities and countryside.

[Zing Singh]

Luckily, he can afford all this international travel. His brokerage firm does well. And combined with the real estate, by the time he was married, he was worth $400,000. So he is at this point almost halfway to a million.

[Simon Jack]

Million US Dollars is a lot in Mexico as well.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, and this is Mexico in the mid-60s. So big money.

[Simon Jack]

So he then sets about using this cash to get into all sorts of businesses. He said his success comes from spotting opportunities early. Something he learned partly apparently from reading futurist writer Alvin Toffler, whose best selling Future Shock book explores the cy and societal effects of rapid technology and social change.

[Zing Singh]

Now, actually, interestingly, later in life, the author himself sent Carlos manuscripts to review.

[Simon Jack]

That sounds like a job application to me.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, bring me on as a consultant.

[Simon Jack]

Exactly, please.

[Zing Singh]

I hear you're a fan. So at the time it didn't seem to matter what industry. The thing that he was on the lookout for was a bargain. So an unloved asset that could make him a tidy profit.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, that reminds me a bit of one of our other billionaires there, which is Warren Buffett. Always on the lookout for companies which have got great potential at Knockdown.

[Zing Singh]

So in Slim's example, he would buy a bottling plant, a soft drink company, a copper mine, a printing company, and then he goes around turning around their fortunes.

[Simon Jack]

And interestingly, these are all very different businesses. Clearly he hasn't got specific knowledge of each individual business area. He just has a sense of what's undervalued, what isn't, what's going to prosper, what isn't. And having a diverse portfolio in lots of different businesses, having your eggs in more than one basket can insulate you against risks. Of which there will be plenty in this story.

[Zing Singh]

It's so interesting because to non investors, you know, like myself, the idea that you could invest in something you don't actually know very much about or have specialist insider knowledge of seems quite strange. Like, it seems that you're taking an unnecessary risk. But clearly this isn't the first billionaire we've heard of who's invested in a vast majority of things.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, I think the mentality is you look at the market share of the business it's currently got, whether that market is going to do well, whether it's telecoms or finance or cement or whatever it is, and then you look at the returns you're getting, the profitability of the business versus the price. You add all those things together, you can begin to get an idea whether something's a good investment or not.

[Zing Singh]

It's almost like the Moneyball approach, right?

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, Exactly.

[Zing Singh]

Now, in 1976, Carlos spends $1 million buying 60% of Galas de Mexico, a small company that prints the labels for cigarette packets. Now, this is an investment that will soon become very significant indeed.

[Simon Jack]

And in 1980, he combines all of his business interest into a conglomerate company called GrupoGas, later changing the name to Grupo Caso, again borrowing the initials of his much loved wife.

[Zing Singh]

So by 1980, his conglomerate is starting to take shape, and with a huge raft of profitable companies, and if he's buying just one of them for $1 million, it's safe to say that Carlos Slim is almost certainly a millionaire.

[Simon Jack]

1980, he's made a million. But he's about to make possibly his most important purchase, which will help him get from a million to a billion.

[Michael Lewis]

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite Moneyball, the Blind side and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states and ourselves. Join me and listen to against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search against the Rules. Listen to against the rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Zing Singh]

Now. It can be hard to determine why and how some of our billionaires do what they do in business, but Carlos actually wrote his 10 business principles for Grupo Castle very early on, and these.

[Simon Jack]

Principles are distributed annually to all employees. A little guidebook for employees. They're available on carlosslim.com a wonderfully 90s website do check that out.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, it looks like a little retro Geocities website and we're not going to cover all of them, but I think it's quite interesting to read about his kind of guiding philosophy, one of which is that, and this is rule number two, you have to maintain austerity in good times as this strengthens profits and accelerates the development of the company by avoiding drastic adjustments in times of crisis.

[Simon Jack]

This reminds me of something George Osborne, the Chancellor in the uk, once said. You've got to fix the roof while the sun is shining. And what it means is sometimes when the good times roll, it can be tempting to overexpand, grow too quickly and sometimes you can get into trouble that way.

[Zing Singh]

So Carlos Slim, you know, thinking of business as a kind of philosoph attitude towards life.

[Simon Jack]

A couple of the other ones I quite like. It says all times are good times for those who know how to work and have the means to do so.

[Zing Singh]

An optimistic guy, you'd say.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. In fact, one of his other principles, firm and patient optimism always yields its rewards.

[Zing Singh]

I wonder how much of an inspiration this was to the rest of the employees in his company, or whether this is just something they kind of received in their inboxes with another kind of like, oh, Carlos is at it again.

[Simon Jack]

The principles probably came printed on the back of your past to get into work. It's one of those kind of things, I reckon.

[Zing Singh]

Interesting. If you work for Grupo Castle, let us know.

[Simon Jack]

Back to 1981. He buys another company. That will be an incredibly important purchase because he uses the profits he's made from Gallister Mexico, his company that prints cigarettes, labels and buys 51% of the company's biggest customers, the cigarette maker Cigatam.

[Zing Singh]

Now Cicatam, was Mexico's second biggest tobacco company, which had the license to make Marlboros in Mexico.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, this business gave Carlos something. He needed a very strong cash flow to spend. And there are some businesses which are highly cash generative. Cigarettes is definitely one of them. Even today, the returns you make on buying cigarette companies, which a lot of people don't want to do anymore, are incredibly high. And what cash does is if you got cash flow, you can use that cash to service any debt you want to take out. If you got cash coming in, banks will lend you extra money.

[Zing Singh]

Right. And that's because people will always just buy cigarettes because people are addicted to smoking.

[Simon Jack]

Well, it's a bit like newspapers were back in the Murdoch's era. They generate a lot of cash coming in every day, not so much now, of course, with the Internet and what that's done to newspaper empires.

[Zing Singh]

So the importance of having a kind of cornerstone of your cash engine right.

[Simon Jack]

At the center of it. Hugely important.

[Zing Singh]

A big roaring furnace of cash.

[Simon Jack]

Yes, exactly. And his timing on this was pretty good because Mexico was about to go into a debt crisis.

[Zing Singh]

Mexico had had huge debt for some time, but it was also a major oil producer, so it was able to service those debts. But in the early 80s, international oil prices were collapsing, and this led to.

[Simon Jack]

Mexico declaring what's known as a sovereign default in 1982. Now, sovereign default is a country saying, I cannot afford to pay the money that I've borrowed. And basically, governments borrow money on international markets from international investors. And there comes a point sometimes in some countries where they default on those debts and say, I can't afford to pay it. It's a very big deal.

[Zing Singh]

Right. Is it basically like a big red alert, emergency sign flashing?

[Simon Jack]

Problem is, is that no one wants to do a sovereign default because it can really hamper your ability to ever borrow money in the future. Either people won't lend it to you at all, or they'll charge you an awful lot for the privilege of borrowing it.

[Zing Singh]

And presumably it's also terrible for the businesses that are in your country. Right.

[Simon Jack]

It can be because those business borrowed money on international markets. And if the country itself has defaulted on its debts, it basically makes the entire country look less creditworthy and all the companies in it.

[Zing Singh]

So how did Mexico respond to this sovereign default? Well, the outgoing Mexican president, Jose Lopez Patio, nationalized the banks, which made capitalists fear the country could be becoming socialist.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. So investors, business owners, they fled the country, which meant they were putting up companies for sale, going seriously cheap, some for as little as 1% of their value on paper.

[Zing Singh]

And Carlos Slim was looking on. He remembers of that time, the year 1983 was crazy. People wanted to sell not only their investments, but also their companies. And so he uses this influx of cigarette cash because people still light up in a financial crisis.

[Simon Jack]

Maybe more.

[Zing Singh]

Maybe more because they're so stressed. And he went on a shopping spree.

[Simon Jack]

And this is a fantastically interesting moment because, again, Warren Buffett, who's the greatest investor of all time, some say, saying, you know, you invest at the point of maximum fear.

[Zing Singh]

Right.

[Simon Jack]

So this takes incredible courage to be rushing in when everyone else is rushing the other way.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's sort of like, what was it, one of those business principles he writes about where all.

[Simon Jack]

Times are good times for those who know how to work and have the means to do so. He's got the cigarette cash companies are going cheap. So he goes all in, while others were getting out. Inspired perhaps by his father, who had bought out his partner in their general store during another turbulent time in the country's history, the Mexican Revolution. So basically, when all around are losing their heads, keep your cool.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, keep your cool and invest. But at the time, Carlos was actually reassuring his friends. He was saying things like, countries don't go broke.

[Simon Jack]

And in a way that's true. One thing the country can always rely on is it has the ability to tax its population. And that means they can always get money in. Plus, if you own the central bank, you can just get them to print some money. Now, sometimes that can cause inflation. But a sovereign country will always have the financial resources of its citizens to draw upon through the form of tax.

[Zing Singh]

Right, so that phrase too big to fail, that applies in this case?

[Simon Jack]

Well, yeah, A country can't ultimately fail forever. You know, people still need to buy and sell things and people still need to make a living, and that living can be taxed. So a country will always have some resources.

[Zing Singh]

So Carlos Slim was experiencing a bit of a bargain basement shopping spree. And he was buying dozens of big companies at bargain prices, including General Tire and Reynolds Aluminium, Mexico's largest insurance company.

[Simon Jack]

Seguras de Mexico, a convenience store chain.

[Zing Singh]

Called Sanborns, which he bought from Walgreens and actually had been his dad's biggest competitor.

[Simon Jack]

And while many others were losing big, Carlos said these were the best times ever.

[Zing Singh]

And by the end of the 80s, the companies under his conglomerate had revenues of more than $1.5 billion.

[Simon Jack]

So the next big purchase for Carlos is part of a now familiar story for good bad billionaire. This was the big wave of privatization. Publicly government owned assets being sold to private markets.

[Zing Singh]

And this was the 90s. So like many governments at the time, then President Carlos Salinas de Guattari began privatizing those industries. He wanted to help kickstart the failing economy.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he was a controversial figure. President Carlos Salinas. His presidency was marred by scandals. He believed improving Mexico's telecommunications infrastructure could help businesses grow and grow the economy.

[Zing Singh]

Right. And actually much the same way that, you know, China and Africa's telecoms industry were like huge drivers of growth.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, particularly in Africa. Because in Africa, for example, they kind of leapfrog frog telegraph wires and went straight to mobile, and that really accelerated their growth. So telecommunications is like the lifeblood of an economy.

[Zing Singh]

Right. Because you can't really Call up a business owner and make a deal if the telephones don't work.

[Simon Jack]

And at this time, the national phone monopoly, Telmex was in a pretty poor state. It had just five lines for every 100 people. That was half the global average of 10 lines per hundred and fifty lines for every hundred in the USA at that time. Time now.

[Zing Singh]

When Telmex was privatized in 1990, the sale was the largest privatization in Latin American history and Carlos won the bid.

[Simon Jack]

He put up half of the 1.8 billion US dollar cost and got a controlling 20% stake. He became the biggest shareholder as well as chairman.

[Zing Singh]

And upon buying Telmex, he promised a phone in every village. And to be fair, he did spend billions on infrastructure.

[Simon Jack]

Some did question whether buying a failing telecoms company was a good investment. But as one executive said at the time, it's like selling wolf in the desert.

[Zing Singh]

Within a year of his purchase of Telmex, net profit was up 44%.

[Simon Jack]

Which meant that in 1991, Fortune magazine, which does people outside of the US, they listed Carlos Slim as one of just 202 billionaires in the world.

[Zing Singh]

So at the age of 51, Carlos Slim is officially worth $1 billion. He is a billionaire, but he's still.

[Simon Jack]

A long way off being the richest person in the world, which he became at one point. So how does he get there?

[Zing Singh]

But on his way to a billion. Let's learn a little bit more about Carlos the person.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. All the money in the world can't keep you healthy forever. And in 1997 he almost dies.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, at the age of 57 he had a heart valve replaced. It didn't go according to plan. He was briefly declared dead on the operating table after suffering a massive haemorrhage.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, and remember his dad died of a heart attack. And after this health scare, he starts handing over some of the day to day running of his M empire to his children.

[Zing Singh]

He had six kids with his wife Sumaiya. Remember, that's the love of his life, the person for whom his museum of art is named after. But in 1999 she died aged 51 from kidney problems.

[Simon Jack]

As you say, love of his life. He never remarried. Their wedding photo remains on his desk.

[Zing Singh]

Although he did actually quip to a Telegraph Reporter Back in 2011, the only sports he practices nowadays is highball and box spring. Referring to cocktails and mattresses.

[Simon Jack]

Yes, nice. Anyway, most of his children still work in his business empire. They've taken on different aspect in different parts of the conglomerate.

[Zing Singh]

And every Monday he Meets his three sons and two sons in law for a home cooked meal at his house to discuss business. It's kind of reminiscent of LVMH bosses. Oh yes, Bernard Arnault's kind of monthly lunches of his kids.

[Simon Jack]

I know, and we remarked at the time on that one. And you can hear that episode in our archive about whether his kids look forward to that meeting. I'm just wondering.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, you kind of wonder how they look at the blog calendar.

[Simon Jack]

Oh great, it's time to go and have dinner with dad again. Anyway, his health scare doesn't stop him back on the business story. After buying Telmex, he then bought one of the two main suppliers of the copper cables that Telmex used for telephone wires, that is proper vertical integration.

[Zing Singh]

And then he made sure that Telmex didn't buy any cables from the other big supplier.

[Simon Jack]

But perhaps the secret to his vast wealth was a little detail of the deal that was done. Remember when he bought Telmex, the ailing telecoms company back in 1990, there was an extra bit that he bought at the time which nobody could know how important it was going to be because he had the cell like the mobile license for the entire country. And just think what that does in the age of the Internet and wireless communication.

[Zing Singh]

Right. Because nobody could really predict the rise of the smartphone or the rise of digital communication.

[Simon Jack]

So he was sitting on a goldmine which he hadn't previously realized.

[Zing Singh]

Now this is huge because by 2001, the cell phone division of Telmex, called America Mobile, became a separate company. And with the rapid growth of cell phone usage, the company absolutely dominated Mexico.

[Simon Jack]

Incredible numbers. By the late 2000s, Telmex controlled over 90% of Mexico's phone lines. And America Movil controlled over 70% of Mexico's cell phone market.

[Zing Singh]

And don't forget the 2000s are also the time of the dot com crash, which Carlos took advantage of. So he bought other telecoms companies on the cheap, including AT&T Latin America.

[Simon Jack]

Today, America Movil is Latin America's biggest.

[Zing Singh]

Telecom company, which effectively means to my mind that Carlos Slim operates a monopoly on the telecom's market.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he's often been accused of being a monopolist. One of the big criticisms that people have of him, and some people say monopolies are very good for the people who own them, but they're not very good for the rest of the economy because you don't get the kind of competition, the kind of innovation, the kind of, you know, that, that race to try and be better than the next person, which makes services better and cheaper. You don't get that with monopolies.

[Zing Singh]

And arguably that has knock on effects for the consumer. Right. Because you can basically charge whatever you want, you can provide a bad service and you don't have a kind of worthwhile competitor to go to to give your money to and say, hey, I'm not having a good time with this other guy. Can you provide me with a better contract?

[Simon Jack]

You've got no choice. Like it or lump it.

[Zing Singh]

So many argue that Carlos's control of the Mexican telecoms industry slowed down the nation's development.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, the oecd, that's the Organization for Economic Cooperation Development, the club of some of the most advanced economies, estimated that it cost Mexicans an extra $13 billion a year between 2005 and 2009 because there was no price competition.

[Zing Singh]

And a 2007 study from the World bank asserted that public and private monopolies were the main issue for slow economic growth and development of the Mexican economy. In fact, it's one of worst countries in the world in terms of competitiveness.

[Simon Jack]

Well, no wonder if he's got 70% of the telecoms market and he dominates in other areas. And so why was he allowed to have such dominance? Well, you know, he's the country's largest private employer and the biggest taxpayer.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, when you put it that way, he's got a lot of power. Indeed. And according to the Wall Street Journal, Mexican Congress routinely killed legislation that threatened his interests. And because his firms account for a big chunk of the nation's advertising revenue, that makes the media reluctant to criticize him. Because they live off advertising.

[Simon Jack]

Right. You know, you've got to imagine also that his riches have brought him enormous amounts of political influence. I imagine when you become a political leader in Mexico, one of the first people you are invited to meet is Carlos Slim.

[Zing Singh]

And though he has a reputation for being a pretty personable guy, when you do meet him, he's known also to have a short temper and to be sensitive around press criticism.

[Simon Jack]

We should say that Carlos himself denies he's monopolist. I like competition. We need more competition. As a quote from him.

[Zing Singh]

Conveniently. However, he also thinks there's no harm in dominating a market if they offer a good service and low prices. In his words, if a beer In Mexico costs 1 peso and in the US it costs 2 pesos, then I don't see the problem.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, unless in fact, unless one of the competitors could sell it to you for half a peso. So you are still paying Double what you might otherwise pay it, even if it's half what it is in the.

[Zing Singh]

US A very good point. Now, he denies that his companies charge high prices, despite many analyses suggesting otherwise. He's also told the New Yorker, if society were to tell me to get out of business, I would do it. But please ask my critics what they have done for the country. How many jobs have they created? Oh, how they hate me.

[Simon Jack]

That's funny. With the money he was making from his telecoms empire, he invested further into other sectors. Construction, mining, oil, broadcasting, airlines, hotels, railway. You name it, he owns it.

[Zing Singh]

And by 2007, he controlled more than 200 companies across his portfolio.

[Simon Jack]

So in 2007, Carlos Slim companies made up 1/3 of the $422 billion Mexican Stock Exchange. Rem, when we did Mukesh Ambani, and we were talking about the percentage of the stock exchange that he owns, this is dwarfed by the dominance of Carlos slim. At 5% of Mexico's gross domestic product, Mukesh Ambani was something like 3%. And so he's almost double the size of Mukesh Ambani's grip on the Indian economy.

[Zing Singh]

And you can listen to that episode in our archive if you recognize the name Ambani. Remember, that's the guy who paid for the 600 million. Featuring, you know, very famous guests, including Beyonce and one Boris Johnson.

[Simon Jack]

Anyway, this is the moment when he sneaks ahead of Microsoft founder Bill Gates. You can listen to that episode, too. And they vie for the title of world's richest person over the next few years.

[Zing Singh]

Now, some people say that the reason why Slim was beating Gates to the top is because Slim, unlike Bill Gates, was rather slow to adopt charity and philanthropy.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, it's worth remembering just how big these numbers are. So he's $59 billion at the age of 60 in the 90s. That means for at least two years, Carlos had been making $27 million a day.

[Zing Singh]

Just for context, by the way, because we're talking about Mexico. A fifth of Mexicans were getting by on less than $2 a day.

[Simon Jack]

Incredible inequality. But it wasn't just in Mexico who's spending money. Throughout the 2000s, he pushed beyond Latin America. He purchased some stakes in US businesses.

[Zing Singh]

So in a very typical move for Carlos when the financial Crisis hit in 2008, he actually bought $150 million stake in the Wall. Wall street bank, Citigroup.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, Going back to that thing, Invest at the moment of maximum fear. And having lived through the financial crisis as a journalist and reporting on it, I can tell you, people thought that the financial world was on the brink of collapse.

[Zing Singh]

But did you still hear about Carlos Slim and people like Carlos Slim going around picking up the wreckage?

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, people like Warren Buffett bought in and lent some money to Goldman Sachs, for example. So Carlos Slim's buying into Citi. So this takes incredible courage to be rushing in when everyone else is rushing the other way because banks were going bust left, right and center.

[Zing Singh]

So what does the richest person in the world do with all that money besides go on a bit of a shopping spree? He buys a newspaper to add to the portfolio.

[Simon Jack]

He bought a 7% stake in the New York Times, put $250 million into the company through a six year loan and again, this was during the height of the financial crisis where it was pretty hard to borrow money from banks who didn't have any.

[Zing Singh]

And in 2015 he spent another $101 million to buy more shares, bringing his stake to 17%.

[Simon Jack]

Newspapers are a funny business. They haven't been great investments financially, but they do get you influence and power. Witness, right now in the UK there is a bidding war going on to try and buy the Daily Telegraph, which is actually a profitable newspaper, which is pretty rare among newspapers. But often they are trophy assets. Witness Jeff Bezos buying the Washington Post.

[Zing Singh]

Yes. And one of our other billionaires, Patrick soon, who's a biotech entrepreneur who is now the billionaire owner of the LA Times.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, so it gets you influence, it gets you control of the narrative, it.

[Zing Singh]

Gets you power, it gets you a direct line to the editor in chief who may themselves also be very well connected.

[Simon Jack]

And also it gets you a lot of sway with politicians because politicians are very, very sensitive to the editorial lines that newspapers will take.

[Zing Singh]

And understandably when the stakes are this high, you are bound to make some people very angry with the purchase. Now, in fact, a New York Times Mexico correspondent said Slim is the consummate monopolist. Does being embroiled in a business culture of back scratching and unseen forces make him a great partner for the Times? I don't think so.

[Simon Jack]

We've talk a lot about his successes. It hasn't always been easy.

[Zing Singh]

Now in the second half of the 2000 and tens, Carlos actually started slipping down the rich list rankings. Now this is partly due to, as we mentioned, the rise of the tech Bros. Like Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Also Latin America is prone as a continent to basically have financial crises from time to time. And there was a currency depreciation against the dollar. There was a recession in Brazil. Argentina have been improbably problems. So that can affect the purchasing power of the pesos you're making in Mexico when you translate that into purchasing power in other currencies.

[Zing Singh]

And unlike some of our other billionaires like Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg, he's actually tied quite regionally to Latin America.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, the net result of that is that his fortune is worth less in dollar terms. So that's another reason he starts falling down the list.

[Zing Singh]

Now, one other issue is that when a new government took power in Mexico in 2012, they also brought in anti monopoly laws designed to increase competition in telecoms, and they pretty much designed to curb the power of America Mobile.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. A competition consultant said the government's attitude towards his empire was quite a big change. This is the first time Slim does not have a copy of all the keys, according to this unknown consultant.

[Zing Singh]

Now, under the new law, his company couldn't charge fees to its smaller competitors when their users called into its network. And it has to share its infrastructure, like its cell towers.

[Simon Jack]

This meant a steep fall in profit for America Movil over the next few years.

[Zing Singh]

But Carlos fought back, arguing the new laws forced American Mobile to subsidize its competitors. And in 2017, Mexico's Supreme Court ruled that allowing competitors to use its network free of charge was unconstitutional.

[Simon Jack]

Despite this back and forth, having a conglomerate which operates across many industries means you spread the risk. So he could weather storms in particular industries and markets pretty well.

[Zing Singh]

Now, Carlos has repeatedly claimed he's about to retire, but then suddenly branches out into a new territory. And it's a move that's been compared to the tactics of his hero, Genghis Khan, who used to kind of lull his rivals into a false sense of security with tactical retreats before going on the offense.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, and age 84, it doesn't look like he's stopping. In June of this year, he got into the UK telecoms market. He paid £400 million for a 3% stake in BT, formerly known as British Telecom, a former monopoly.

[Zing Singh]

And this year was the first time his wealth topped $100 billion, according to Forbes. So Carlos is officially a centi billionaire.

[Simon Jack]

But $102 billion these days, sadly only brings you to number 14 on the list. So he's no longer the richest person.

[Zing Singh]

In the world, but still, when you're talking about people who earn hundreds and hundreds of billion dollars, number 14 isn't too bad a place to land at.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, so we're going to judge him. He's 84 years old, he's worth $102 billion. Let's assess him in our categories.

[Zing Singh]

So we assess all our billionaires according to different metrics. Wealth, rags to riches. You know, how far have they traveled to their wealth levels of villainy? And we rank them from 0 to a 10. So let's start with wealth. How much is Carlos Slim worth?

[Simon Jack]

102 billion. He was richest man in the world for many years. Out of 10, I'm going to give him a very solid nine, particularly because he comes from one of the. One of the poorer countries in the world.

[Zing Singh]

I'm actually not going to give him his higher ranking because part of how we judge this category is how they spend it, and he's not exactly a lavish spender. So apparently for decades, he didn't own any houses outside of Mexico, and he still lives in this unpretentious house in Mexico City.

[Simon Jack]

Like Warren Buffett lives in the same house he's had since the 1950s in Omaha.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like his palate is probably a little bit more adventurous than Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett, famously big lover of McDonald's. I kind of feel like maybe Carlos Slim has slightly more elevated taste than that.

[Simon Jack]

I'm still going to give him a 9 simply because of the wealth relative to his country. For example, in 2007, his wealth was 6% of Mexico's entire national income. Now, if Bill Gates were to have a similar chunk in the United States, he would have to be worth 784 billion, rather than the actual 59 billion that Carlos Slim was worth back in 2007.

[Zing Singh]

Still, I feel like if you want to make it in the wealth stakes, for me, you got to spend like a billion.

[Simon Jack]

You like to see the cash flash.

[Zing Singh]

I like to see the cash flash. I want to see submarines with missile detection systems, you know, supercar collection. So I'm going to give him a modest seven out of ten.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, nine for me, seven for you. Rags to riches. How far has he come?

[Zing Singh]

Well, it's an interesting one because his family comes from pretty humble origins as, you know, Lebanese immigrants to Mexico. But by the time Carlos was born into the family, they were doing quite well.

[Simon Jack]

Basically a pretty solidly successful business person teaching him the ropes, giving him some advice on how to get ahead. But he did get very, very rich. So I'm going to give a six.

[Zing Singh]

And in a country, I guess, where getting very, very rich was actually quite rare at the time.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, six for me.

[Zing Singh]

I would say six for me as well. You know, he's done pretty well for himself.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, so villainy. Have his monopolies damaged Mexico? Yes, according to some. An Oxfam report, for example, said that extreme wealth inequality in Mexico continues to grow. The total wealth of Mexico's 14 ultra rich individuals has doubled since the start of the COVID pandemic. In particular that of Carlos Slim writes Oxfam, the richest man on the. Has as much wealth as around 64 million Mexicans. And as we said earlier on the monopoly question, the OECD reckoned that between 2005 and 2009, his monopoly of telecommunications cost Mexicans $13 billion a year.

[Zing Singh]

Oh, that is a lot of money. And also the environmental costs of his business. You know, he's been called out for businesses in oil and mining. You know, his company actually won a $774 million contract on a Meijer trainer project, which has caused serious environmental damage. So apparently legal complaints were filed by groups living along the route trying to stop the railway's progress.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, and the Guardian newspaper named him as a top carbon emitter alongside 11 other billionaires, including Jeff Bezos and Roman Abramovich. You can listen to those episodes on our archive. And they went on. 12 of the world's wealthiest billionaires produced more greenhouse gas emissions from their yachts, private jets, mansions and financial investments than the annual energy emissions of 2 million homes. I mean, it's amazing that Carlos Slim has kept such a clean profile given the fact that Mexico is often racked with, you know, organized crime, violence, drug trafficking, etc. He seems to have risen to the top, the very top of the economic tree without any of that tainting his.

[Zing Singh]

International reputation, especially, you know, going through several decades. Right. He's kind of sat pretty and made money continuously throughout the years.

[Simon Jack]

He's an incredible survivor. Survivor on villainy, I'm going to say that monopolism is bad for a developing country. America decided monopolies were bad. That's why you have something called the antitrust laws, which are competition laws, because they wanted to break these big steel trusts, banking trusts, railroad trusts, because they realized they were holding America's development back. So it was a monopolist. I'm going to say that that's villainy. So I'm going to give him an 8 on that basis.

[Zing Singh]

Oh, I mean, for you, the reason why he's villainous is the monopoly aspect.

[Simon Jack]

Exactly.

[Zing Singh]

I would say for me, the environmental aspect is kind of what tips it over for me. I think, you know, I think that it seems incredible that he's one of the billionaires who are producing the energy emissions of 2 million homes. Like that seems wild to me.

[Simon Jack]

I'm going to give him an 8 on villainy for his monopolistic tendencies. And you're going to give him.

[Zing Singh]

I'll give him an 8, too.

[Simon Jack]

For different reasons.

[Zing Singh]

For different reasons.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, let us then talk about philanthropy. How much of your villainy can you absolve through your philanthropy?

[Zing Singh]

So, on Carlos Slim.com there's a rather long quote from Bill Clinton that begins with, carlos Slim is one of the world's most important philanthropists, and most people have never heard about his humanitarian activities. So let's talk about them now.

[Simon Jack]

Okay. He does donate billions to various charities, from education to health, although many have argued that he doesn't give enough, given the poverty in Mexico and how ubiquitous his companies are. If you can't step out your front door without giving Carlos Slim some money.

[Zing Singh]

Now, interestingly, he's been publish publicly skeptical about whether money spent on philanthropy is actually worthwhile. Yeah, back in 2007, he said he had no intention of going around like Santa Claus giving away his money.

[Simon Jack]

And at the time when he was the richest person in the world, he was actually openly critical of the giving pledge started by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett to give away half your money in your lifetime. He said charity doesn't solve poverty. How much charity has been done in the past years? Trillions of dollars. Instead, he argued, many of the problems will be solved by business activity and.

[Zing Singh]

Development, but prisoners, presumably his business activity and his development, not so much of that of his competitors.

[Simon Jack]

Well, funnily, you should mention that, because he said, wealth is like an orchard. You have to share the fruit, not the trees. And he'd like to own the trees.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, he liked to own the trees. And any trees that want to be planted. I'm sorry, you're not coming into the orchard.

[Simon Jack]

So I don't know what to think about philanthropy. He's given away a lot of money, although skeptical about how much good it does. So I'm going to do a straight down the middle. Give it a four, maybe.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, I would say a four out of 10.

[Simon Jack]

So, okay, four from both of us on philanthropy power. In 2018, Forbes ranked Carlos the 20th most powerful person in the world.

[Zing Singh]

Now, understandably, given that Bill Clinton wrote a foreword for his website, he's also been known to host Clinton at his home.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he's had a turbulent relationship with Donald Trump, and Donald Trump, of course, has had a turbulent relationship with Mexico and Mexicans.

[Zing Singh]

In 2015, Carlos TV production studio scrapped a TV deal with Trump after Trump said, remember this? Some Mexicans crossing the border into the United States were rapists.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Trump once described Carlos Slim as the string pulling manipulator who orchestrated a media conspiracy to defeat his election campaign.

[Zing Singh]

Two years later, however, Carlos offered to help Mexico negotiate with Trump. And he actually praised Trump's negotiation skills and said Trump would create positive change for those in Mexico.

[Simon Jack]

So a very weird relationship. Denise Dresser, a Mexican academic who won a journalism prize in 2009 for an open letter she wrote to the billionaire. It says, past, present, made, I'd say, feeble attempts to regulate Carlos Slim, but they created a monster so big it's very hard to domesticate him at this point.

[Zing Singh]

Wow. So sounds as if Mexico has a very turbulent relationship indeed with Carlos Slim. So power, I would say, in Mexico.

[Simon Jack]

In Mexico, it's a 10.

[Zing Singh]

Right.

[Simon Jack]

I mean, he's the most powerful person in Mexico, probably more powerful than the President.

[Zing Singh]

I mean, imagine if Rupert Murdoch owned important companies across every single kind of industry in the UK and you get someone like Carlos Slim.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Within Mexico, he's a 10. And Mexico is one of the world's most important developing economies. I'm going to give him an 8 for worldwide power.

[Zing Singh]

Right. I'm going to go with an average. So 10 in Mexico, eight for worldwide power. So I think he's a nine out of 10 for me. I imagine if you get elected to lead Mexico, one of the first people you call is Carlos Slim.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Okay, so you're giving him. I'm giving him an 8. You're giving him a 9 on power and then legacy. How will people remember him? What will he leave behind?

[Zing Singh]

Well, interestingly, when Carlos was asked if money motivated him, he said, the truth is, when I pass away, I will not take one cent with me. In my opinion, wealth is a responsibility and in some ways a compromise. You must keep it growing and use it to society's benefit.

[Simon Jack]

New York Times editorial board member Eduardo Porter wrote, It takes about nine of the captains of industry and finance of the 19th and early 20th century to replicate the footprint that Mr. Slim has left on Mexico. So he's talking about people like Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Astor, Carnegie. So Carlos Slim's impact on Mexico is bigger than a bunch of those combined. So that's quite a legacy. Yeah.

[Zing Singh]

And in fact, if you go to Mexico City now and you wander around Centro Historico, that entire district has been completely cleaned up, that historic old town, by Carlos Slim, because it was once full of all these crumbling buildings. It was a real kind of hotbed for crime. And walking through it, it's hard to imagine it ever was like that. It's now beautiful, vibrant, completely well preserved.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it, because he's become vastly rich and he would say he's taken Mexico with him. Do you know what I mean? He'd say, I think he would argue that he's tried to do good things for his country. He's pulled the country up alongside his own vast increase in wealth.

[Zing Singh]

And not many of our billionaires can say that they've done that for the country they were born in. You know, some billionaires, you know, like Ambani. Yes. But, you know, if you're say Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, you've left a huge impact on the world. But on America, did you pull up America from being a pretty, like, developing nation? No, you can't really say that. But Carlos Slim can say that for Mexico.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, so I mean, legacy within Mexico, he'll probably be one of the most famous people ever. He'll be like Rockefeller in the U.S. won't he? I mean, he'll be member for generations as being the rich guy. So I think again, in Mexico, I'd give him a 9 at least for legacy. So, yeah. Will he be remembered in the rest of the world? Not so much. So overall I'm going to give him a seven for legacy.

[Zing Singh]

Oh, so nine in Mexico is seven internationally. What's that divided by two?

[Simon Jack]

Eight.

[Zing Singh]

Eight. I think an eight out of ten works for me. Split the difference.

[Simon Jack]

And then we've got to decide this is always the hardest pit, whether he's good, bad, or just another billionaire.

[Zing Singh]

Oh, it's difficult. Difficult, isn't it? I mean, I did rank him quite high on villainy.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, I'm going to say he's marginally bad. I think he probably has done great things for Mexico. He's being described as incredibly competent, but because of his monopolistic tendencies, which I am convinced is bad for a country, I'm going to say he's just shades into the bad territory.

[Zing Singh]

I think when you think about the level of inequality in Mexico and putting aside the billions he's done philanthropic, it clearly hasn't really made a dent on inequality in Mexico. And he's become this real symbol of the gap between the rich and the poor, something that's only really expanding.

[Simon Jack]

It's a tricky one, this. Do you blame the rich people for inequality? Do you know what I mean? Is it the people who get richest fault that there's inequality, or is it the way the society is organized?

[Zing Singh]

But then when the rich people are engaging in business practices like you point, out of monopolies and strangling competition and actually, some might argue costing people money out of their pocket because they exercise such a monopoly on their daily life, then I think, yeah, I think you.

[Simon Jack]

Have to say that argument. Okay, well, like I say, he wanders into bad territory for me.

[Zing Singh]

So, Carlos Slim, you are sadly a bad billionaire.

[Simon Jack]

I'm sure he'll be gutted.

[Zing Singh]

So who do we have on the next episode?

[Simon Jack]

We have a woman who spotted a gap in the market, a gap between generations, and named a company after it.

[Zing Singh]

Her name is Doris Fisher, and she, with her husband Don, founded the clothing giant the Gap, which was born in.

[Simon Jack]

The summer of Love, faded in the 1980s, was totally dominant in the 1990s.

[Zing Singh]

And we'll update the story to tell you how she made a billion from that good bad.

[Simon Jack]

Billynette was produced by Hannah Hufford and Louise Morris, with additional production support from Emma Betteridge. James Cook is the editor and it's a BBC Studios production. For BBC World Service.

[Zing Singh]

For the BBC World Service. And the podcast commissioning editor is John Manow.

[Michael Lewis]

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite Moneyball, the Blind side and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states and ourselves. Join me and listen to against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search against the Rules. Listen to against the rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.