← Good Bad Billionaire
Good Bad Billionaire
David Geffen: The Hollywood power broker
00:47:33
How David Geffen, the man behind your favourite music and movies, conquered Hollywood
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- [00:00]
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- [01:24]
Simon Jack
Five young men sit in a circle. They're naked and sweating.
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Zing Singh
We're in a sauna in Hollywood. It's 1971.
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Simon Jack
Four of the men are probably smoking something, but our fifth man definitely is not.
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Zing Singh
He's short and he talks fast. He's trying to make the foursome feel special. He promises he'll never take on more artists than could fit in this sauna.
- [01:44]
Simon Jack
They shake hands. Our guy has just signed the Eagles.
- [01:50]
Zing Singh
Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Each episode we pick a billionaire and we find out how they made their money.
- [01:57]
Simon Jack
We take them from zero to their first million and then from a million onto a billion.
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Zing Singh
My name is Zing Singh and I'm a journalist, author and podcaster.
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Simon Jack
I'm Simon Jack. I'm the BBC's business editor.
- [02:06]
Zing Singh
And today's Billionaire was recommended by a listener named Sheridan. So thank you so much for that, Sheridan, because this really is a corker of a story.
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Simon Jack
David Geffen is worth $9 billion and was for years one of the most influential meddlers of all time. He meddled in the music business in Hollywood and was associated with some of the biggest names in rock and roll and some of the biggest movies.
- [02:30]
Zing Singh
That's right, someone who was involved with Crosby, Steeles and Nash, Guns N Roses, Cher, Shrek, Gladiator, even Cats the musical. This is a man who knows everyone with the likes of Steven Spielberg, Calvin Klein and Microsoft co founder Paul Allen on his actual speed dial.
- [02:47]
Simon Jack
Probably our only billionaire to be the subject of a Joni Mitchell song. That's a great accolade, isn't it? Free man in Paris is about him with lyrics like ideal in dreamers and telephone screamers.
- [02:57]
Zing Singh
And that lyric points to his reputation for ruthlessness.
- [03:00]
Simon Jack
So is David Geffen good, bad, or just another billionaire? We want to know what you, our listeners, think. It's going to be up to you to decide.
- [03:07]
Zing Singh
But let's travel back to the beginning before he'd ever set a foot in Hollywood. David Geffen was born in 1943 in Brooklyn, New York to a Jewish immigrant family. His father lost his job during the Great Depression, so his mother became the breadwinner, making bras for their neighbors. And eventually she opened up a store.
- [03:28]
Simon Jack
David was the baby of the family. He was born 10 years after his brother Mitchell as a young boy slept on the sofa in the living room. But his mother called him King David. And when David was six years old, she had a nervous breakdown. She was checked into a psychiatric unit for six months.
- [03:43]
Zing Singh
David was bullied about his mentally unwell mother and his out of work father. His brother told him, you're gonna get beaten up one way or the other, you'd better fight back. So David learned early, saying, I don't want to have a fight, but there has to be a cost in fighting with me.
- [03:58]
Simon Jack
From the age of 10, he would visit Manhattan on his own. He loved Broadway musicals and the movies. He once apparently sat so many showings of Singing in the Rain that his mother called the police to report him missing.
- [04:10]
Zing Singh
I don't blame him, that is an amazing film. But he even managed to turn that hobby into business opportunities. He was sculpting tickets for musicals. His cousin once wrote to her parents. He's enterprising, thinks of nothing but money, but he will have it and I hope it will make him happy.
- [04:25]
Simon Jack
Oh, well, let's see. At school, David was a self described terrible student and he was desperate to get out of Brooklyn. So he left home the day, graduated from high school and moved in with his brother Mitchell in Los Angeles. And he said, from the day I arrived, California seemed like an enchanted land.
- [04:41]
Zing Singh
One day, while walking out in Hollywood, David was actually cast to be an extra in a movie. I mean, that's the kind of stuff.
- [04:47]
Simon Jack
That I'd love to do that just go to LA and just find myself some extra like one of the zombies or something in the zombie film?
- [04:52]
Zing Singh
Well, maybe not in this particular film. It was a low budget film called the Explosive Generation starring William Shatner. I'm in so, you know, pretty big name. While he was there, he read a new biography of an MGM studio boss named Louis B. Mayer called Hollywood Rajah. And he decided he, he wanted to work in showbiz. And pretty soon he got his very first in.
- [05:13]
Simon Jack
Now here's a stroke of luck. Cause Mitchell, his brother's sister in law Annette, marries the record producer Phil Spector. Now he's since become infamous for domestic abuse and a murder conviction, but at the time he was a celebrated, although eccentric record producer, massive name in the music business. He was already a millionaire in his early 20s, despite being just over two years older than David. So a real sort of something he could see and touch, almost like that's what I want to.
- [05:40]
Zing Singh
David tagged along with his brother to the studio. He got a front row seat to seminal recordings like the Renettes. Be My Baby.
- [05:47]
Simon Jack
That's really famous for the Spectre sound that had this famous wall of sound, if you can hear it. It really is an incredible recording.
- [05:53]
Zing Singh
It's an amazing song and being there for the recording of it must have been quite the sight. But before long, he kind of lost that Phil Spector connection. Phil left Annette for the role nets lead singer Ronnie.
- [06:03]
Simon Jack
Instead, he looks for jobs on the periphery of show business. At 19, he becomes an usher for the filming of TV shows. At C, he's fired on the evening of the assassination of JFK after getting into a fight when someone badmouths the late president. And as we'll see, he is a lifelong Democrat.
- [06:22]
Zing Singh
So David Geffen has no money. He's forced to go back to New York and he gets a job as a receptionist at a production company. And it's there that he asks a casting director how he can get into the entertainment business. She asks him if he has any talent, to which he replies, absolutely not. So she suggests that he becomes an agent because in her words, he you don't have to know anything. I'm sure some agents listening might disagree with that.
- [06:45]
Simon Jack
It's very interesting this because throughout his career he surrounds himself with talented people. But you know, a lot of people would say he lacked any talent of his own, apart from making money, of course. Anyway, not yet. He gets $55 a week. That's around $550 in today's money because he gets a job in the mailroom of the William Morris Agency, which is the biggest Agency in the world. That and Creative Artist Agency are the two big things you sign to one or the other if you're a big star. So he tells a bit of a porky to get the job. He says that he graduated from ucla, University of California in la, where he'd actually been rejected. He had intercepted the letter from the university forging a fake one.
- [07:25]
Zing Singh
Within a week of working there, he has this epiphany that he actually, despite basically lying to get the job, he can do it in his words, although with a few expletives taken out. They bow on the phone. I can BO on the phone, too. But David also works hard. He comes in early, he leaves late. He uses his Christmas vacation to work in the mailroom of the LA office. And in the mailroom, he makes friends with another aspiring agent, a man called Elliot Roberts, whom we will return to soon.
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Simon Jack
He also makes friends at the very top. After hearing that the president of wma, Nat Lefkovitz, worked on Saturdays, he starts coming in on a Saturday to try and meet him. And it works. He befriends Nat, who becomes something of a mentor to him.
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Zing Singh
There's a story that David actually stole a client list from his boss and took it directly to Nat. His boss found out, he was furious, they fired him. But David went straight to Nat, who, as president, reversed the firing. I mean, this is pretty much the thing that you don't do when you work for an agency.
- [08:23]
Simon Jack
Well, it's funny, isn't it? Because I know lots of people who work for agencies of one type and another, not necessarily in show business. And the client list is the kind of crown jewels. And a lot of people say, before I leave, I'm going to put a little thumb drive in there and download it off and off I go. Now, it's considered a massive no, no, and it's definitely a sackable offense, but it is, you know, that's the keys to the kingdom. Being an agent of any kind. It's just about the relig.
- [08:49]
Zing Singh
It is just about FaceTime. And as we'll see, David is very, very good at that.
- [08:53]
Simon Jack
Yeah, he was quickly promoted up the ranks to become a TV agent at just 23. He had a secretary, an office, and was earning around $300 a week. That's $3,000 a week in today's money. So not bad money. And he realized that the way to be the most successful was to be a signer. This is a person who brings in the talent into the agency. And one of the first clients he signed was a young Lorne Michaels who would go on to create Saturday Night Live.
- [09:20]
Zing Singh
But then he meets Jerry Brandt, an agent at WMA who'd signed the Rolling Stones. Jerry tells him that the music department is the place for a young agent to make a name for himself. And it's also the place to, coincidentally, make a lot of money. So he decides to pivot.
- [09:35]
Simon Jack
Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to a record company person the other day, and they were saying that one of the most successful people in his industry was a person who'd signed. I won't say the name of the act. Cause they might be listening, but still alive, clearly. Yeah, well, and this act is still very big and currently touring anyway. But the point is, is that if you bring something like that, which is a real rainmaker for an agency, you do get paid a lot of money. And remember, this is a period of change in the music industry. In the 1950s and 60s, it was the record companies, the producers, who held the power. If you think even back to, like, Elvis Presley and some of the early Motown records, it was the producers who earned all the money, and the artist didn't have much power. The singer, the songwriter, it had very little control. But rock music had begun a shift in power towards artists and their representatives.
- [10:22]
Zing Singh
So it was this environment that David Geffen was first starting to come up. But he needed his very first client. And he gets one after a friend plays him. A folk singer named Laura Nairo. Laura wrote good songs, but she was quirky. Hair down to her thighs, purple lipstick, Christmas bowls for earrings. And she'd also recently been booed off stage at a festival.
- [10:41]
Simon Jack
Poor Laura. David convinces Laura to be his client and gets her out of all her old contracts. He becomes her agent and her manager.
- [10:50]
Zing Singh
Now, it's worth stopping here to do a quick explainer on the difference between an agent and a manager. Because if you're not familiar with the showbiz world or the music world, they kind of all sound like the same thing, but they are very different. So a manager is a central figure. They guide every single major decision. They're thinking about the artist and their overall career strategy, and they make money from that. So they typically earn about 15 to 20% of the artist's gross income. But an agent focuses specifically on live performances and appearances. So they'll be booking, for instance, festival appearances. They typically earn about 10% of the artist's live performance income only. So being an agent and manager, you're kind of coining it in from all.
- [11:30]
Simon Jack
Sides, getting paid both Ways? Well, David gets Laura an audition with Clive Davis, who's an executive at CBS Records, who offers her a recording contract on the spot. In the process, Clive becomes his friend and another mental figure to David. Now, in 1968, Laura's album is released. A critical success, has a cult following, but it doesn't sell that many records. So David pulls strings with success, successful artists like Barbra Streisand, for example, to record cover versions of Laura's songs.
- [11:59]
Zing Singh
Now, you might be asking yourself, why? What kind of money is there in cover songs? But David understood that owning music publishing is where the big money can be made, because publishing is the songwriting itself. It's the melody, the lyrics, the structure of the song. So with Laura, David set up a publishing company called Tuna Fish Music, which was named for her favorite food. Quite a quirky gal, this Laura. Under this company, the proceeds from Laura's compositions would be divided equally. So when cover versions of Laura's music made the charts, David and Laura made money.
- [12:30]
Simon Jack
Yeah, and there's quite a few famous people who do that. There's a woman called Diane Warren who's written loads of songs for people like Aerosmith. Don't Wanna Miss A Thing, which was in the Armageddon film. Everyone thinks that Steve Tyler was getting all the money from Aerosmith, but actually, Diane Warren wrote the song, the music, the lyrics, the structure, and she was getting most of the money. And actually, he's done a great deal. If he's getting 50, 50 with the person who actually wrote the songs when he's really not done that much himself, you know, he's making money. Someone else's talent is what the whole point of being an agent and a manager is.
- [13:01]
Zing Singh
It's also the reason why you might find some old pop stars, particularly from the 90s or the 2000s, when you wonder, hey, where this person even disappeared off to. A lot of the time they've disappeared off to write songs for other artists.
- [13:12]
Simon Jack
Yes, Exactly. Anyway, by 1969, the value of Laura's catalog is peaking and David decides to sell up. So he sells Tuna Fish Music, he makes a deal with Clive Davis, and Clive Davis, to CBS, will acquire Tuna Fish Music for 4.5 million doll. Now, that's 40 million in today's money at the time. Almost unprecedented amount of money for a solo artist's catalogue. Remember 50, 50 split with Laura. So David walks away with over $2 million. 20 million in today's money. So he's a millionaire and only five years on from working in the mailroom. Pretty good progress.
- [14:00]
Zing Singh
By this point, David is making a name for himself in the industry at large. And a rival New York agency, Ashley Famous, offers him a job to head up their music and concert department. Now, he'd actually been laughed out of the Ashley Famous office when he'd interviewed for them just a few years before. But now they're offering him a grand a week, which is more than double what he's getting paid at wma.
- [14:20]
Simon Jack
And once at Ashley Famous, he poaches the agent of Bob Dylan and Janis Joplin. But he doesn't stay there long with within a year he moves on again, this time to be vice president at Creative Management Artists in Los Angeles. He's finally back in Hollywood and just.
- [14:36]
Zing Singh
In time, because there's a new music scene emerging there, the folk rock scene centered around Laurel Canyon in Hollywood. And do you remember Elliot Roberts, the guy who worked in the mailroom with David? Now they've remained friends and Elliot has just become manager to artists from this very scene. Two artists called Neil Young and Joni Mitchell.
- [14:55]
Simon Jack
Two of my faves, I have to confess. Now when Elliot takes on a new supergroup, Crosby, Stills and Nash, that's David Crosby, Stephen Stills and Graham Nash used to be in the Hollies. He asked David to co manage them with him. So David finally leaves his talent agency and sets up a management company with Elliot.
- [15:13]
Zing Singh
Together they start expanding, they take on more artists in the scene. But David differed from Elliot and other managers at that time. He didn't really live that kind of long haired hippie rock lifestyle, as the New Yorker put it. For anyone trying to understand Geffen's success in the rock business, it's worth keeping in mind that at crucial moments when millions of dollars in royalties hung in the balance, he was the only person in the room who wasn't high.
- [15:38]
Simon Jack
Interesting, I've got to say, what's the point in working in this industry if you're not going to live the lifestyle? How boring.
- [15:45]
Zing Singh
It's true. But clearly, like David Geffen did, you can make a lot of money if you can keep a hook, keep your.
- [15:51]
Simon Jack
Head when all around are losing theirs.
- [15:53]
Zing Singh
Exactly.
- [15:55]
Simon Jack
Well, producer Paul Rothschild, who David had squeezed out of the Crosby, Stills and Nash deal, was less flattering about him. And he said, when David Geffen enters the California waters as a manager, sharks have entered the lagoon. The entire vibe changes. He says it used to be let's make music, money's a byproduct. Then it becomes let's make money, music is a byproduct.
- [16:17]
Zing Singh
Interesting criticism of David. There and something, I think, that a lot of musicians nowadays would say about the music industry themselves. But next, David takes on a then unknown artist from the scene, Jackson Browne. He unsuccessfully shops Jackson's demos around the record labels. They're not interested. But in the process, he gets some advice from Ahmed Etigan, the charismatic, cultured and very rich head of Atlantic Records.
- [16:40]
Simon Jack
Atlantic Records, massive record label. Now, Ahmed suggests that if David believes in Jackson, he should start his own record company to sign him. So he does. Ahmed described David as very bright and very fast. Ahmet becomes another mentor figure and he convinces David to buy a Picasso.
- [16:58]
Zing Singh
So clearly David's already moving in ramified circles.
- [17:01]
Simon Jack
I suppose we're in the late 60s, early 70s here, so, you know, you probably could buy a Picasso if you were a young millionaire like him. These days you have to be a billionaire.
- [17:10]
Zing Singh
David took Ahmet's advice. He established Asylum Records in 1971, so named because the music business, in his words, is an insane asylum. It also means a refuge and a sanctuary, so a double meaning there. Now, Asylum completely shaped the music scene on the West Coast. You probably will have heard of it if you're a fan of any of these artists. He signed the biggest ones out there, Joni Mitchell, Tom Waits, the notoriously impossible to sign Bob Dylan. And on Asylum, Joni Mitchell charted with her song, you Turn Me on, I'm A Radio, which was initially written as a joke for David Geffen, who was desperate for her to make a radio friendly hit.
- [17:46]
Simon Jack
But David also signed a fledgling band called The Eagles, whose 1976 greatest hits album, interesting factoid here, is still the best selling album in America of all time. And remember, he promised to keep us Asylum small. Only as many artists as he could fit in that sauna. Hmm. Within a year, David sold Asylum to Warner Communications for $7 million, although he remained at the time president. And in a way, I suppose, if he's doing so well, odd to sell it so quickly. But I think what we've already seen is he's quite a nomadic kind of business person here, isn't he?
- [18:22]
Zing Singh
Yeah, he sees opportunity, picks it up, exploits it as quickly as he can, and then just kind of moves on.
- [18:27]
Simon Jack
Although this is probably. We've had this discussion before, we probably would have done this because we're always saying that we would have got out way. That's it. The first few million we see were gone.
- [18:36]
Zing Singh
Or maybe the fumes from the sauna finally got to him. So David described his sale as a stupid mistake, a mind boggling, idiotic decision, and you have to kind of agree with him because a year later, with the success of artists like the Eagles, asylum was worth $50 million. So Warner Communications really nabbed a good deal there. But despite this, David said he finally felt rich after he sold Asylum Records. But that newfound wealth put him in therapy five days a week. He said, I no longer could tell myself it was and still didn't feel quite right. I crashed. So clearly just getting loads of money wasn't really filling anything inside him.
- [19:13]
Simon Jack
Yeah, so this is the age old thing. You know, you set out, we just want the money. Then you get there and you think, now what? And then you're left with yourself.
- [19:20]
Zing Singh
And he had quite a few things to deal with himself.
- [19:23]
Simon Jack
Well, let's move on to some of that, actually, because in therapy, he tried to deal with his sexuality. A few years earlier, he had come out as gay to a friend and he'd avoided the Vietnam draft actually, by ticking. Yes to the question, do you have any homosexual tenets? But in therapy, he decided he wanted to be straight.
- [19:41]
Zing Singh
One night at the Roxy, which was also a nightclub he'd recently opened, he was sitting at a table with Bob Dylan when he was introduced to Cher. They talked all night long, and within three days they were living together. And although she was still married to Sonny Bono publicly, that relationship had ended.
- [19:57]
Simon Jack
In private, David and Cher are together for 18 months. They eventually go public about their relationship at the Grammy Awards, no less. He even proposes to her with a ring in Hawaii. David says he didn't really know he was gay and he was genuinely in love with Cher.
- [20:12]
Zing Singh
He wouldn't be the first or the last gay man to be in love with Cher.
- [20:15]
Simon Jack
Yes.
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Zing Singh
But while they were together, Cher recorded with Phil Spector, against David's advice and much to Phil Spector's displeasure. David would often join Cher in the studio. And one day, Phil pulled a gun on David, so Cher stopped recording with him entirely.
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Simon Jack
But Cher eventually left David for musician Greg Allman, who she would marry. Greg Allman, one of the all time great guitarists, by the way. David was heartbroken, humiliated by their public break, especially when he read in Time magazine that Cher had said of him and her ex husband Sonny that she traded one short, ugly man in for another.
- [20:48]
Zing Singh
Oh, ouch.
- [20:49]
Simon Jack
Ouch. But things are about to get even worse.
- [20:51]
Zing Singh
By 1975, David was disenchanted with the music industry. So he made his first move to get into the movie business. He gets a job as vice chairman of Warner Brothers Pictures. But it was, in his words, a disaster.
- [21:03]
Simon Jack
I love the fact that his first job was a vice chairman. Vice chairman would be nice anyway. At one point he tells director Clint Eastwood to shave 20 minutes off his film. To which Clint responds that he'll make his next movie at rival Paramount. And although the few movies released under him at Warner Bros. Do okay, he can't stand the corporate bureaucracy. And within less than a year, he's actually fired.
- [21:28]
Zing Singh
Then age just 34, he's diagnosed with bladder cancer. You would think that someone like David would try and distract himself from this news with work, but he actually can't. Warner Brothers have him on a non compete clause. So he's on gardening leave for the next few years. And this is, I guess I would love to be put on gardening leave, to be honest. It's a kind of non employment state where you're not allowed to work for anyone else because your former employers have decided you're too much of a risk.
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Simon Jack
Potential competitor.
- [21:56]
Zing Singh
Potential competitor. You'll bring that kind of knowledge to a competitor and use it to do them in.
- [22:01]
Simon Jack
Yeah, the worst thing for a lot of agencies because the thing about agencies, as we say, it's all about the relationships. So if somebody who's got relationships up sticks and leaves, the last thing he wants them to do is to take all those relationships with them because that's the lifeblood of the company. And some people will have to wait out that gardening before they set up a rival agency. It happens in advertising too. It happens in all sorts of places.
- [22:20]
Zing Singh
Worth noting as well. You also get paid to go on gardening leave. So you're literally getting paid to garden.
- [22:24]
Simon Jack
Best kind of leave to get anyway. He inverted commas, retires to New York. During the days he lectures at Yale, he invests a huge amount in real estate and art. He becomes friends with Calvin Klein. At night, he parties at Studio 54. This is the best gardening leave ever. At this point, many believe David Geffen's star was fading. He was a bit of a has been. But in fact, it was only the end of his first act.
- [22:49]
Zing Singh
Get this. In 1980, David was told he never actually had cancer, that it was a misdiagnosis.
- [22:56]
Simon Jack
That's gotta be a good day.
- [22:57]
Zing Singh
I mean, a good day for David Geffen. A bad day to be David Geffen's doctor, I guess. So I imagine you'd basically want to sue someone if you found that out, I think.
- [23:07]
Simon Jack
But let's face it, your first reaction was one of incredible relief.
- [23:10]
Zing Singh
I mean, the years he spent believing that he was going to die actually did give him something quite Important. He finally admitted to himself that he was gay. He said, I was in hospital waiting to find out whether it spread, whether I was going to have to be mutilated or whether I would die. It all sank in. Then I realized there is no time to waste in life. And what does he do with that extra time? He fell in love with a 19 year old named Stephen Anton. When he introduced that first boyfriend to his mother, all she did was look him up and down and say, he's not Jewish.
- [23:40]
Simon Jack
That's great. So let's recap. He's cancer free. Free. He's contract free. As the non compete clause had run its course, and following advice from Paul Simon. I love the way we're just dropping these names in here. He decides to return to what he does best. Another record label, apparently Geffen Records, was named as such because Calvin Klein told him, you'll get laid more if the record company is named after you. Sound advice.
- [24:05]
Zing Singh
Sound advice depends on how successful the record company is. I think. Immediately, David starts signing some of the biggest names in music. Donna Summer, Elton John. To bag John Lennon, he even offers to sign before even hearing the record. He goes on a charm offensive with Yoko Ono.
- [24:21]
Simon Jack
Just three weeks after releasing John and Yoko's record, Double Fantasy, John, of course, was shot in front of Yoko as they walked back from the studio. David had been with them earlier that evening. David rushed to the hospital, but John Lennon was already dead. So he escorted Yoko home. I was. I think I was 9 years old at that time. I remember it like it was yesterday. Everyone in the playground was talking about it. My God, John Lennon's day. Because it meant the Beatles would never get back together. It was such a huge, huge moment.
- [24:46]
Zing Singh
Wow. So really, David Geffen's at the center of.
- [24:48]
Simon Jack
He's right there.
- [24:49]
Zing Singh
Culture. Really.
- [24:50]
Simon Jack
Yeah.
- [24:50]
Zing Singh
And his label actually does incredibly well over the next decade. So he has Neil Young, he's got Joni Mitchell, Don Henley, Peter Gabriel, Olivia Newton John, lots more musicians. He's also a really good talent spotter within the business itself. So halfway through the decade, he hires Neil A and R guys to shake things up.
- [25:08]
Simon Jack
A R artists and repertoire it stands for.
- [25:10]
Zing Singh
They are the kind of people who are kind, kind of noses to the ground sniffing up.
- [25:14]
Simon Jack
They're the people who go around clubs and whatever trying to find people, sniff out new talent.
- [25:18]
Zing Singh
And these A and R guys, they tap into the 80s heavy metal scene, which is bubbling up. So they sign Guns N Roses, Aerosmith. He even signs the rock makeover of his former girlfriend, Cher. If you remember Cher went through a really big leather and chains phase.
- [25:32]
Simon Jack
I do remember that, funnily enough.
- [25:34]
Zing Singh
So David Geffens conquered the music industry, and he's still determined to make it in movies.
- [25:39]
Simon Jack
But first he gets into Broadway. Remember, he's been a huge fan of Broadway musicals since he was a. And in 1981, he produces two Dream Girls and Cats. Importantly, he gets the right to release the show's original cast albums. And for Dreamgirls, he buys the rights for $1 million to turn the musical into a movie.
- [25:58]
Zing Singh
And then in 1982, he sets up his own movie production company called the Geffen Film Company. Over the next few years, they do kind of. Okay, some films you've probably never heard of, but also some films you probably have. So Risky Business Business, Little Shop of Horrors, Beetlejuice, and Interview with a Vampire. I mean, those are.
- [26:17]
Simon Jack
I've seen them all.
- [26:18]
Zing Singh
That is. I've seen all of those films. That is quite the lineup.
- [26:22]
Simon Jack
So he's making some inroads in the movie business, but he's still known as a music mogul. By 1989, Geffen Records had grown into the largest independent label in the US So he decides that it's time to sell. Of course, there's a bidding war. David sells Geffen Records to MCA, that's now called Universal, for $545 million in stock. And this gives Dav a 12 and a half percent stake of MCA, one of the biggest record labels in the world.
- [26:48]
Zing Singh
Just eight months later, MCA was bought by Japan's Matsushita Group, now called Panasonic. David has said that they overpaid tremendously. When that sale went through, David cashed in his shares and that earned him $710 million, according to Bloomberg. It was this deal, combined with his existing assets like the Broadway rights, a portfolio of real estate that is Picasso. All that meant that David became, in 1990, a billionaire at the age of 47.
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- [30:05]
Simon Jack
So let's go beyond a billion. He had this massive windfall when he cashed out of Geffen Records and he invested his money. He gave $200 million to a hedge fund manager. Hedge funds are just big investment funds which take quite big risks with money who delivered compounded annual returns of between 20 and 30% for over a decade. Now that is a phenomenal rate of return for an investor.
- [30:30]
Zing Singh
What can you say listening to that? It sounds incredible.
- [30:33]
Simon Jack
Just bear with me while I get my calculator. Hang on a second.
- [30:36]
Zing Singh
We're Going to do some live.
- [30:36]
Simon Jack
We're going to do some live compound interest calculation. So that turns 200 million to 1.2 billion in a 10 year period. Because in year one you've got 200 million. In year two you got 200 million plus the 25% which that's 250 million. And then in year two you've got 250 million plus another 25%. So you see it keeps going up and up and compounds. So that is a phenomenal return.
- [30:58]
Zing Singh
People would dream of getting that return on their savings. He also started seriously investing in another area, art. In four years alone, he spent 400 million buying some of the most valuable 20th century painting in the world, including Rothko's and Pollock's. So he's super rich. He's not even 50 yet. Does a man this driven just retire and build the world's greatest art collection? Of course not, no. It's time to conquer Hollywood. So in 1994 David Geffen co founds DreamWorks SKG. He's the G in SKG and the dealmaker.
- [31:30]
Simon Jack
Now the K in that is Jeffrey Katzenberg. He quit Disney after leading its animation kind of renaissance. In five years he'd released Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, the Lion King. But the S is Steven Spielberg. At this point he's directed 14 films. Jaws, Indiana Jones et, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List just won an Oscar. And in a way, just like Crosby, Stills and Nash was a supergroup of musicians. This is, if you like, a supergroup of moguls.
- [32:00]
Zing Singh
Exactly. And it's funny because you think a room with this many egos wouldn't quite work well.
- [32:05]
Simon Jack
And I think the jury's out ultimately as to whether ever did really work. But it certainly upset the apple carp at Hollywood's big studios like paramount, Warner Brothers, MGM, Universal, 20th Century Fox for example, they were established during this sort of, you know, back in the 1920s to 1940s. So I think some of the big names, you know, saw these three who could command people's attention getting together. And it was a real threat to the established movie studios.
- [32:33]
Zing Singh
This is a big bet because movies are notoriously expensive to make. They are very expensive. If they fail, the risk is really high. And it is primarily for that reason. People just don't decide overnight to start a new film studio.
- [32:46]
Simon Jack
That's right. You've got to figure out that maybe 2 out of 10 of the movies you make are actually going to make their money back. And so you need to have quite deep pockets to be able to take some of those risks. DreamWorks was essentially, if you like, a startup. Hollywood's first major new studio for 60 years. And the press conference at its launch, David said, I haven't had this much anxiety in 20 years. No wonder.
- [33:08]
Zing Singh
And also worth noting that, you know, these are people who had serious money to bring into this business. So they put in, what, $33.3 million each. They also put in 2 billion of other people's money. There was half a billion from Microsoft co founder Paul Allen. The studio's first two films, the Peacemaker and Amistad, did not do well. Then in 1998, they were in an animation race with Disney, of all things. They were both making films about insects. DreamWorks pipped Disney Pixar to the post. They released Ants just seven weeks before A Bug's Life. And while ants didn't do quite so well financially, it was seen as a kind of more edgy alternative to Disney. And it proved that the studio no longer had their monopoly in animation.
- [33:50]
Simon Jack
Interesting, because, yeah, I remember seeing Ants where it was kind of voiced by Woody Allen, and it was an ant who wasn't happy conforming to the wishes of his colony.
- [33:58]
Zing Singh
It was about a neurotic ant.
- [34:00]
Simon Jack
A neurotic ant. It's a brilliant idea, I've got to say, actually. Anyway, over the next few years, they had some huge hits. Saving Private Ryan, Cast Away, Meet the Parents, Shrek, Massive Money spinner. They won three consecutive Academy Awards for Best Picture between 2022for American Beauty, Gladiator, A Beautiful Mind. They are on a roll. According to A biography of DreamWorks, the Men who Would Be King, author Nicole Laporte claims that David would use his position on the Forbes Rich list as actual collateral in meetings, saying, I didn't get to be the 32nd richest man in America for nothing. I love. I don't think we've had anyone explicitly do that on our list, saying, I'm rich for a reason, therefore you should do what I say.
- [34:42]
Zing Singh
And also at 32nd richest man in America, I know know it's a big deal given how rich he was, but it's a bit like saying you're the fifth favorite barista in Brooklyn. You know, it doesn't really mean a lot.
- [34:54]
Simon Jack
I don't know. I know which one I'd rather be, so.
- [34:58]
Zing Singh
Well, DreamWorks also had their share of flops, though, you know, it lost $125 million on a film called Sinbad.
- [35:05]
Simon Jack
I remember that being a massive flop. One of the biggest flops of all Time.
- [35:09]
Zing Singh
Yes, Exactly. In fact, DreamWorks was also on the verge of bankruptcy a couple of times. So it actually wasn't really doing super well behind the scenes.
- [35:16]
Simon Jack
In 2006, David and his partners sold DreamWorks to Viacom, the parent company of Paramount, for $1.6 billion. Now, at the time, the New York Times financial columnist Andrew Ross Sorkin wrote, geffen, a master negotiator, twisted Viacom into overpaying so much for the deal that the producers of the bloated box office flop Waterworld just mentioned it may start to look smart.
- [35:40]
Zing Singh
David stayed on at DreamWorks for a coup of years. One of the first films released after the deal was the movie version of the Broadway musical Dreamgirls, which, incidentally, he also owned the rights to. But in 2008, at the age of 65, David left DreamWorks.
- [35:54]
Simon Jack
Now, he briefly tried and failed to go into a different business. He tried to become a newspaper mogul. He had unsuccessful bids to buy the LA Times and the New York Times. Instead, he set about becoming one of America's leading philanthropists.
- [36:09]
Zing Singh
For the past few decades, David had been giving away his money, and now he stepped it up a gear. To date, he's given away at least $1.2 billion to museums, theaters, concert halls, universities, research and medical centers. In fact, he says he intends to give every nickel away in his lifetime.
- [36:26]
Simon Jack
And there are a lot of nickels left to do that, because age 82 today, he's worth around $9 billion. Most of that fortune is actually from the stock market and painting. He said, I made most of my money investing the money I made from selling my companies.
- [36:40]
Zing Singh
He actually had a billion dollars in Apple in which presumably has grown since then.
- [36:45]
Simon Jack
What holds the front page there? A billion in Apple in 2013. This is just after the iPhone had been launched. So everyone thought, well, they've had their big thing. Apple then went on an absolute tear because it went into, you know, the applications you get on on that Apple TV, etc. Probably one of the biggest and most lucrative investments of all time. So he had a billion dollars in Apple in 2013. And also his art collection.
- [37:07]
Zing Singh
His art collection is massive now. It's worth $2.3 billion. He's also got some very valuable real estate. In 2020, he resold his Hollywood estate for 165 million. That is three times what he'd actually paid for it to none other than Jeff Bezos.
- [37:23]
Simon Jack
Check out the episode on him.
- [37:24]
Zing Singh
It was rumored to contain the wooden floor that Napoleon stood on when he proposed to his wife. Josephine.
- [37:29]
Simon Jack
Oh, come off it. That's hilarious.
- [37:32]
Zing Singh
So this is a man who knows how to make money money, but also spend it.
- [37:36]
Simon Jack
So that's where we end his story. And what a story. We didn't even get the chance to talk about the time Madonna stopped speaking to him because he stole her chauffeur. Oh, well, there's only so many lifestyles, the rich and famous tales we can tell in one episode. But that is quite amazing. Now we get to the point where we're going to look at him on a number of categories. Things like wealth, controversy, philanthropy, power and legacy. And you and I will mark him out of 10. Just for fun, before we ask whether he's a good bad billionaire, which we'll ask our listeners to judge. But so we'll start with wealth, currently 360th in the world, according to Forbes. He's got about $9 billion. It's interesting because. What, you always wonder this, don't you? Do they actually look at these rich lists? And he said, yes. Do I care at this point in my life? No. But the first time you get on it, it brings a smile to your face. I think people are flattered at the beginning and annoyed at the end. So they do read them?
- [38:32]
Zing Singh
Well, yeah. I mean, I like his honesty. I have to give it to him. I think you'd be mad not to. It's like authors who say they don't read the book reviews. Of course they read the book reviews. Everyone does.
- [38:42]
Simon Jack
Yeah. So he does care about money, right?
- [38:44]
Zing Singh
Yeah, he does. He. He actually said, I do give a s about money. I wanted to have a lot of money. I thought it would change my life, which it did, but not in the ways I expected.
- [38:54]
Simon Jack
So he's. Listen, he's a rich guy and knows how to spend it. Right.
- [38:56]
Zing Singh
You know, if you're talking about lifestyle alone, partying at Studio 54, hanging out with Calvin Klein.
- [39:02]
Simon Jack
Yeah.
- [39:03]
Zing Singh
I mean, you don't get more rich and famous than that. And, you know, he's. He's traveled really far. He came up from hard done by family in Brooklyn before Brooklyn was cool and trendy and was the kind of.
- [39:13]
Simon Jack
Sleeping on the sofa.
- [39:14]
Zing Singh
Exactly. So, you know, he's made it a very, very long way away from that.
- [39:19]
Simon Jack
Home in Brooklyn and work started the mail room. So for wealth alone, I would give him something like a four. But with all that stuff I tacked on, I'm gonna give him a seven.
- [39:29]
Zing Singh
Oh, I'd go even higher. I'd probably give him an eight.
- [39:32]
Simon Jack
Okay.
- [39:32]
Zing Singh
I think this is the kind of story. And we talk about these stories sometimes because there are some billions where, you know, the distance they've traveled from humble origins isn't actually that far because they were born into privilege or, you know, with a leg up. But he really kind of grafted, literally from the mail room up. And I think there is a kind of, you know, there's a Hollywood story in this.
- [39:51]
Simon Jack
Oh, yeah.
- [39:52]
Zing Singh
You can kind of see it.
- [39:53]
Simon Jack
Yeah, sure.
- [39:53]
Zing Singh
I don't think he'd let anybody write it.
- [39:55]
Simon Jack
No.
- [39:56]
Zing Singh
But maybe after he dies, someone will try and make a biopic about David Geffen.
- [40:00]
Simon Jack
I'm sure they will. Okay, seven from me. Eight for you. Control controversy. He's got quite a reputation in the industry. In fact, I've got a few friends who work in the record industry.
- [40:09]
Zing Singh
Oh, yeah? Do tell.
- [40:11]
Simon Jack
They weren't that flattering about him. I'm obviously not going to name any names, but there's some other descriptions which are on the record.
- [40:17]
Zing Singh
Yeah. Wall Street Journal described him as a man whose reputation in business was one of complete ruthlessness, who was once called the merciless Macbeth of Hollywood's gay mafia.
- [40:27]
Simon Jack
The New Yorker said he's widely feared for his guile and his anger.
- [40:31]
Zing Singh
David actually has responded to these allegations. When asked about his reputation, he said, there are people who would tell you that I'm a very bad enemy to have. What they're really saying is if people want to insert expletive here with me, I'm up to the task.
- [40:45]
Simon Jack
What's the most controversial thing he's done? I don't think he's done any massive acts of malfunction. It seems to me that he achieves what he wants to with a certain project and then gets slightly bored and then goes on to do something else.
- [40:58]
Zing Singh
I think he turns his attention fully to one thing and then kind of just diverts it once he feels like the job's done.
- [41:03]
Simon Jack
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:04]
Zing Singh
Which I guess you could kind. He's easily distracted, I'm sure.
- [41:07]
Simon Jack
Listen, in the world of agents and managers of artists, it is a dog eat dog world. They're always nicking clients from each other. It's a pretty ruthless business. And I think you'd be pretty weird if you weren't a bit ruthless if you were in that business and you were that successful. I think that comes with the territory.
- [41:23]
Zing Singh
I think one man's nightmare agent is another man's dream agent.
- [41:26]
Simon Jack
Well, remember Oprah? She said what she needed was a piranha to help her out, to make her so she could take the tough Decisions. And in a way, he was that piranha for a lot of other people.
- [41:35]
Zing Singh
Yeah. And that is basically what a good agent does. I suppose. You have to be the piranha because soft hearted, guitar strumming, long haired hippies are not going to be able to advocate for themselves in the boardroom, let me tell you that.
- [41:48]
Simon Jack
That's very funny. Okay, Kadrovsy Five, Middle of the pack.
- [41:51]
Zing Singh
Yeah, five out of ten, I think.
- [41:53]
Simon Jack
Okay. Philanthropy. He's gonna score highly here.
- [41:55]
Zing Singh
Oh yeah, definitely. Like as we said, he's given away 1.2 billion so far. Big ticket items include 300 million to the UCLA medical school, which is now called the David Geffen school of medicine.
- [42:07]
Simon Jack
150 million dol to the Yale Drama School, now named the David Geffen School of Drama.
- [42:12]
Zing Singh
Also making the school tuition free, which means you don't have to pay money to attend. Quite a big deal in America where university fees are notoriously expensive.
- [42:20]
Simon Jack
100 million to the New York Philharmonic. That hall is now renamed the David Geffen Hall. Are you seeing a trend here?
- [42:25]
Zing Singh
His name is definitely on a lot of buildings. He's actually argued that people should give their money away publicly rather than anonymously. He said we should be examples to our friends and communities. I should be an example to young gay kids. And in the end, everybody knows who anonymous is. So, you know, you may put your name on it.
- [42:42]
Simon Jack
I think that's a refreshing take on the whole thing. Cause people get criticized, oh, this is a way of buying immortality. And whatever he's saying, you know, hey, why not put my name on it? And other people can say, gosh, that's how. Well, that's what success looks like. I don't know.
- [42:53]
Zing Singh
I think that is what comes across in his story. This is a guy who says it like it is. He's a straight talker.
- [42:59]
Simon Jack
He's got some very interesting thoughts on what's known as the Giving Pledge. And this was this pledge set up by Warren Buffett and Bill Gates for billionaires to give away a big chunk of their money in their lifetime. He said it's grandstanding. There's no legal obligation. I know more than one member of the club who's told me, well, you're not actually required to give anything away, but you look good. Actions speak louder than words. If you're going to give it away, then give it away and do it when you're alive.
- [43:24]
Zing Singh
So, I mean, whatever you think of him renaming all these buildings after himself, he does put his money where his mouth is.
- [43:30]
Simon Jack
I think you Learn a lot about what he must have been like to deal with by hearing about his approach to philanthropy, actually. Do you know what I mean?
- [43:37]
Zing Singh
Yeah.
- [43:37]
Simon Jack
Straight talking. So philanthropy. I think he's, you know, I mean, I'm going to give him a nine.
- [43:42]
Zing Singh
Yeah, I think a nine out of ten. He's probably one of the first billionaires that we've done in a while who has actually just pivoted his life towards giving all that money away in his. While he's still around.
- [43:53]
Simon Jack
Yeah.
- [43:54]
Zing Singh
So power and legacy. I think this one's going to be huge, surely.
- [43:58]
Simon Jack
Well, some people say he was the most powerful man in Hollywood for a generation. I wonder whether that's quite right. I mean, he certainly was a player, but whether he was more powerful than, I know, Bob Iger at Disney or whoever was running, you know, Sony or what have you, I'm not sure. So. But clearly a massively powerful person.
- [44:17]
Zing Singh
He had some political power as well. You know, he was a top Democrat fundraiser, continued to raise money for them for decades.
- [44:23]
Simon Jack
Yeah, he stayed at the White House overnight during Bill Clinton's presidency, you know, in return for some of his fundraising.
- [44:30]
Zing Singh
But I think really where his legacy is gonna lie is in music. Shirley. I mean, those names that we were talking about right at the beginning of the episode, you know, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, even people like Cher, you know, Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan, he's been right in there in the thick of things.
- [44:46]
Simon Jack
Crosby, Stills and Nash. I mean, I think they would react in horror if they thought they had any part in their musical legacy. He was the money guy. And that's the interesting thing, isn't it? I've got absolutely no doubt that Bob Dylan would have found someone to sell his record for him.
- [45:01]
Zing Singh
But would they have been as successful if there wasn't someone's head behind him?
- [45:06]
Simon Jack
I'm going to say yes.
- [45:07]
Zing Singh
I don't. I don't know. I think this is one of the fascinating things about the music industry and the entertainment industry. When we cover these stories, there's always a kind of tension between the creative people and the commercial people. And when you get people who work together really well, that's when they make the mega bucks and they get successful, and they also get the critical acclaim, but one without the other. I mean, David Geffen wouldn't be rich if he didn't have artists to represent. Yeah, but would an artist get this rich and this successful without a piranha in their corner?
- [45:36]
Simon Jack
Put it this way. I think that there's no doubt that David Geffen is A massive name in the arts for sure. Whether it's by talent or just by acumen and having a great nose for signing acts and what have you. He's, he's a big figure, so he's, you know, he does have some cultural influence. But I'm going to score him lower. I'm gonna say four.
- [45:56]
Zing Singh
Oh, okay. I think I'm gonna go much higher.
- [45:58]
Simon Jack
I think I'm gonna scoot you. Let's have some tension here.
- [46:01]
Zing Singh
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm actually gonna do an eight out of ten. Sorry.
- [46:05]
Simon Jack
Okay. You've never been a double me because.
- [46:07]
Zing Singh
I think, and maybe this is because I've spoken to an interviewed musicians and the thing that always strikes me about musicians is that they aren't very clever commercially. That is the reason why they're great musicians. It's very rare that you get people who are, you know, like a Taylor Swift who are able to do both sides and that there are probably so many bands and so many musicians who have just fallen by the wayside because they signed with someone who didn't do a good deal for them for the recording rights. They signed with someone who couldn't get them booked at the right places at the right time. And that's where someone like David Geffen and his companies would have come in. If you are working with someone who's good at that side of things, you are kind of primed for success. So I think, you know, if Joni Mitchell didn't have that radio hit with that radio friendly song that he begged, would she have? Who knows what would have become of her?
- [46:57]
Simon Jack
Well, listen, if Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Cher, if you're listening, you tell us about how you found working with David Geffen.
- [47:06]
Zing Singh
Send us a voice note because we would love to play it.
- [47:08]
Simon Jack
We would love to play it. Email goodbad billionairebc.com or drop us a text or WhatsApp to 001-917-686-1176 and don't.
- [47:19]
Zing Singh
Forget to include your name as we may read out your message on a future episode and possibly print it out and frame it if you' We've had loads of feedback on our Tyler Perry episode. Some of you are big fans. We can't read out everything, but we read and enjoyed them all.
- [47:33]
Simon Jack
Yes, Linda from New York says, imo, in my opinion, Tyler Perry is just another billionaire. I appreciate his rags to riches story and his ability to create work in his industry, but you have overrated his legacy. I just don't see people remembering his work in 20 years time I was interested not in a good way to hear that he was holding off on more studio building because of AI. Perhaps he should focus on ways to keep ordinary people employed as we all face the onslaught of an AI driven world of entertainment. That would be interesting. Interesting comments.
- [48:04]
Zing Singh
Well, Linda from New York, another American listener, Tula, will probably disagree with you about Tyler Perry's legacy. They say, omg of course he is good. His Daddy's Girls and I Can do bad all by Myself are American classics imho. In my honest opinion, he is a brilliant man and a national treasure.
- [48:22]
Simon Jack
And Umaima from Nigeria agrees. She says, I'm an addicted listener of your podcast. That's great to hear. You missed out on one aspect in the title Tyler Perry story. His effort to revive the careers of black actors and musicians and paid them top dollar for their work, thus helping many of them recover their dignity and respect within the black community and the industry at large. For this alone, Tyler Perry is a good billionaire. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Looking forward to more shows and witty quips from the both of you. Thank you Umaima and Gordon from the.
- [48:50]
Zing Singh
UK wrote Never heard of Tyler Perry till recently before your episode. I found out about Tyler Perry by looking for a model of a Dakota DC3 aircraft which my father flew in the RAF. There's a YouTube video in which Tyler flies his massive remote controlled airplanes, so you've both got hobbies in common. He came across as a friendly okay guy. Gordon goes on to say, I've got a pleasant life with a lovely family and managed to make it to 75. Congrats Gordon, but I've always wondered how to get rich. It looks like a lot of hard work with some different jeans that mine helps.
- [49:22]
Simon Jack
You never know Gordon. Never too late.
- [49:24]
Zing Singh
We've also got some great feedback from Dr. Laura Mitchell who emailed us to say, I thought you might be interested to know I'm using some episodes of your podcast to teach first year undergrads on my Introduction to Business Ethics and Sustainability course at the University of York. So we are on the university teaching material. Laura says we have just under 800 undergrads on the course this year, so you might see a spike in listener numbers to some of the older Rihanna. Denise Coates and Roman Abramovich are very popular. Anyway, thanks so much for producing the show. It's great context for 18 year old students just starting to learn about business practice.
- [49:58]
Simon Jack
I thought the only way I'd get on a syllabus was to commit some sort of crime.
- [50:01]
Zing Singh
Well, thank God you haven't because we found another way for you to get into the ears of a bunch of undergrads. And if any of your 800 students are listening in, we welcome listener feedback from you too.
- [50:14]
Simon Jack
So who have we got?
- [50:15]
Zing Singh
Next episode we have the youngest self made female billionaire who made her first billion at just 30 years old.
- [50:23]
Simon Jack
Oh, does that make you feel bitter?
- [50:25]
Zing Singh
It's a real knife in the heart, I have to say.
- [50:28]
Simon Jack
Well, it's Lucy Guo. She is one of the founders of something called scale AI which is part of the building blocks of the AI revolution that seems to be taking over the world and has produced a lot of billionaires.
- [50:39]
Zing Singh
We've already covered it powers giants like OpenAI's, ChatGPT, Google or Microsoft. If you've used AI technology, you've probably sort of encountered scale AI without even knowing it.
- [50:48]
Simon Jack
And fascinating this. There is a very large human element to this AI story as we will discuss on the next episode of Good Bad Billionaire. Do join us. Good Bad Billionaire is a BBC World Service podcast produced by Hannah Hufford. The researcher is Hannah Ramazani, the editor is Paul Smith and it's a BBC Studios production for the BBC World Service. The senior commissioning producer is Sarah Greene and the commissioning editor is John Manell.
- [51:24]
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