Doris Fisher: Don’t mind The Gap

Summary

Podcast Summary: Good Bad Billionaire – Episode: Doris Fisher: Don’t Mind The Gap

Introduction Good Bad Billionaire, a BBC World Service podcast hosted by Simon Jones and Zing Tsjeng, delves into the lives of some of the world's wealthiest individuals, exploring how they amassed their fortunes and evaluating their impact on society. In this episode, titled "Doris Fisher: Don’t Mind The Gap," the hosts examine the life and legacy of Doris Fisher, co-founder of the iconic clothing brand, Gap Inc.

Early Life of Doris and Don Fisher Doris Lee Feigenbaum Fisher, born in 1931 in San Francisco, hailed from a well-to-do Jewish family. Her parents' marriage was a notable social event, announced in The New York Times (03:27). Doris, the middle of three children, was driven by a desire to make her parents proud, particularly her father, a lawyer and Republican state legislator for California (03:44).

Don Fisher, Doris’s husband, also came from a middle-class Jewish family in San Francisco. A University of California, Berkeley graduate in Business Administration, Don was a charismatic and athletic individual, standing six feet four inches tall and having captained both the swimming and water polo teams (04:40).

Founding the Gap In the late 1960s, while Don operated a commercial real estate business, the Fishers identified a gap in the market. Not satisfied with the limited selection of Levi's jeans available at department stores, Don and Doris envisioned a one-stop shop offering every style, size, and color Levi Strauss had to offer (06:32). This vision led to the establishment of their first store in August 1969 on Ocean Avenue, strategically positioned near colleges and a high school to cater to the burgeoning youth culture of the time (07:25).

"Doris and Don decided to be equal partners," Simon Jones notes (07:25). They invested $63,000 to launch the store, funding part of it by raiding their children's savings accounts—a testament to their commitment and entrepreneurial spirit (07:58).

Growth and Initial Success The Gap quickly gained popularity through innovative merchandising and strategic marketing. By selling jeans organized by size rather than style, they enhanced the shopping experience, making it easier for customers to find their fit (10:18). A pivotal moment was their collaboration with Levi's advertising director, Bud Robinson, securing a 50% contribution towards radio advertising—a novel approach at the time (11:00).

Within a year, the Fishers opened a second store in San Jose and expanded their inventory to include women's Levi's (11:43). By their third anniversary, Gap boasted 25 stores across the U.S., emphasizing convenience with locations near bus stops and high-traffic areas (12:09).

Challenges and IPO Downfall In May 1976, Gap went public with an initial public offering (IPO) at $18 per share. However, the same month, the Federal Trade Commission accused Levi Strauss of price fixing, casting a shadow over Gap's primary supplier (14:53). This led to Gap's first loss after 26 consecutive profitable quarters, causing their stock to plummet to $7.25 per share within a year (15:14).

The fallout was severe, resulting in nine class action lawsuits alleging that the Fishers attempted to sell their holdings before announcing the bad news (15:37). Although the Securities and Exchange Commission found no criminal wrongdoing, Gap settled these lawsuits for $5.8 million (16:01).

Expansion and Recovery in the 80s and 90s Undeterred by early setbacks, the Fishers embarked on aggressive expansion. By 1978, Gap had 300 stores nationwide. The 1980s introduced strategic acquisitions, including Banana Republic in 1983 and Pottery Barn, though the latter resulted in significant losses (17:36).

A turning point came with the hiring of Mickey Drexler in the mid-1980s. Drexler revamped Gap’s image by remodeling stores, slashing prices, and broadening the product range to include casual, stylish basics. His efforts transformed Gap into a recognizable and beloved brand, culminating in a navy and white Gap logo by the end of the decade (19:07).

By 1991, Gap Inc. had nearly 1,000 stores and $2 billion in sales, making Doris and Don Fisher billionaires with a combined worth of $1.9 billion and a 41% shareholding in the company (21:22).

The Peak and Becoming Billionaires The 1990s marked Gap’s zenith. It became a cultural phenomenon, featured on the cover of Vogue’s 100th anniversary issue with supermodels clad in Gap attire (22:35). Celebrities like Mick Jagger and characters from iconic films and TV shows wore Gap, cementing its place in American fashion (22:57).

Decline of Gap and Market Challenges Despite its success, Gap faced declining fortunes in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The brand struggled to stay relevant amidst shifting fashion trends, increased competition from fast fashion giants like Zara and H&M, and criticisms over labor practices, including sweatshops and child labor (25:00). Additionally, Gap’s ubiquitous presence became a liability, with the brand being perceived as bland and overexposed.

By 2002, Gap’s profits had halved, leading to the ousting of Mickey Drexler and the transition of leadership to their son, Bob Fisher (26:22). Gap Inc.'s stock volatility continued, and despite owning over 3,000 stores globally, the company never regained its former glory (27:58).

Current Status and Wealth As of 2019, the Fisher family remained billionaires, with Doris owning 6.1% of Gap Inc. and her sons holding just under 30% (28:23). Despite Gap’s struggles, Doris Fisher’s personal wealth stood at $1.5 billion, and she continued to serve as an honorary lifetime director on Gap’s board at the age of 93 (29:28).

Philanthropy The Fishers established the Gap Foundation in 1977, donating over $100 million to various causes, particularly supporting U.S. charter schools (36:12). However, their philanthropic endeavors have been met with mixed reactions due to the controversial nature of charter schools, which face criticism for alleged discriminatory practices (36:27).

Hosts' Assessment and Conclusion In evaluating Doris Fisher, Simon and Zing consider multiple facets:

• Wealth: Doris and her family amassed significant wealth, including a $1 billion contemporary art collection, earning her a score of 4 out of 10.

• Rags to Riches: Coming from a privileged background with elite education from Stanford, Doris scores 4 out of 10 in this category.

• Villainy: Gap faced serious ethical issues regarding labor practices. While Doris and Don weren’t particularly ruthless in their business dealings, the company’s oversight placed them mid-pack, earning Doris a 3 to 6 out of 10, reflecting differing viewpoints.

• Philanthropy: Contributions to education and the Gap Foundation received mixed reviews, resulting in a 3 out of 10.

• Power: Despite significant political donations, Doris’s influence was modest compared to other billionaires, scoring her a 2 out of 10.

• Legacy: Gap’s cultural imprint and status as a symbol of American consumerism earn it a high legacy score of 8 out of 10.

Final Judgment: Just Another Billionaire After thorough evaluation, both hosts agree that Doris Fisher embodies the archetype of "Just Another Billionaire." While her contributions to fashion and philanthropy are noteworthy, they neither elevate her to the status of a "Good" billionaire nor condemn her as "Bad." Instead, she represents the complex interplay of entrepreneurship, cultural influence, and ethical challenges inherent in building a global brand.

Notable Quotes

• Doris Fisher on her success: "I've been successful because I've worked hard." (03:04)
• Doris on equal partnership: "Why not? It didn't even dawn on me to do anything differently. We were doing it together as partners." (07:58)
• Doris on philanthropy: "I love the work I do in our communities. I love being able to help people who have fewer opportunities." (36:27)

Conclusion "Doris Fisher: Don’t Mind The Gap" offers a comprehensive look into the life of a pioneering female billionaire whose entrepreneurial vision transformed retail fashion. While her journey with Gap Inc. showcases remarkable innovation and resilience, it also highlights the challenges of maintaining relevance and ethical standards in a rapidly evolving global market. The episode serves as a nuanced exploration of wealth, power, and legacy in the modern business landscape.

Transcript

[Simon Jones]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Michael Lewis]

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite Moneyball, the Blind side and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states and ourselves. Join me and listen to against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeartradio. Open your free iHeart app and search against the Rules. Listen to against the rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Simon Jones]

Welcome to Good Bad, Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Each episode we pick a billionaire and find out how they made their money.

[Zing Singh]

And then we judge them. Are they good, bad, or just another billionaire?

[Simon Jones]

I'm Simon Jones, the BBC's business editor.

[Zing Singh]

And I'm Zing Singh. I'm a journalist, author and podcaster.

[Simon Jones]

This is a story of a woman, a couple, who found a gap in the market, a gap in the generations.

[Zing Singh]

Very good.

[Simon Jones]

And decided to name their store after it.

[Zing Singh]

Yes, her name is Doris Fisher, and with her husband, she founded the Gap.

[Simon Jones]

Doris Fisher on her own today, worth $1.5 billion. At one point, she was worth over 4 billion. And together with her family, she's still worth over $6 billion.

[Zing Singh]

And if you were at any point around in the 90s, you will have seen that advertising, it was everywhere.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, one of the most successful clothing brands ever. It revolutionized the way the world shopped and dressed. How would you characterize it? You're the best dressed person I know.

[Zing Singh]

Thank you very much. And, well, I guess I don't wear the Gap personally, which maybe tells you something about the way it's perceived now because it's all about all American basics. So we're talking about chinos, T shirts, polos, jeans, usually quite brightly colored, you know, kind of think Ralph Lauren, but less aspirational and a lot more accessible.

[Simon Jones]

And yet they started by inventing specialty retail. The Gap started life selling just jeans and records. But Doris Fisher is pretty private. Don, her co founder and husband, less so. But they were equal partners in the business, which was unusual for the 60s.

[Zing Singh]

Now, it's actually been tricky to find out much about Doris specifically.

[Simon Jones]

Unlike Don, who self published a 724 page autobiography, mercifully only gave out around 200 copies to family and friends. And Don is a big part of this story, but he's not the focus because this podcast focuses on billionaires who are still with us.

[Zing Singh]

But we can tell you one thing Doris did say. I'll tell you that I've been successful because I've worked hard.

[Simon Jones]

Millions of people work hard. That's not quite good enough. That's not going to do it, I'm afraid.

[Zing Singh]

Doris and Don and Doris really did seem to do everything together, and that includes spending serious money on art. They amassed a $1 billion art collection which includes over 1,000 works by 185 artists from Andy Warhol to Roy Lichtenstein.

[Simon Jones]

But it's been a rollercoaster. This wasn't linear, unadulterated success.

[Zing Singh]

Doris has described the Gap as a store with a heart. But the last two decades have seen the Gap dramatically fall from favour amid allegations of sweatshops and child labour.

[Simon Jones]

So is Doris Fisher good, bad, or just another billionaire? Let's go back to the beginning.

[Zing Singh]

Doris Lee Feigenbaum was born in 1931 in San Francisco, USA. There isn't a huge amount of information on her early years, but what we can gather is that she was born into a well to do Jewish family because her parents married at the Ritz Carlton and it was announced in the society pages of the New York Times.

[Simon Jones]

And her father was a lawyer and a Republican state legislator for California.

[Zing Singh]

Doris was the middle of three children and she said, I just wanted to make my parents proud and to have them notice me, especially my dad. I really idolized him. I wanted to show him what I could do.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, she was diligent. She was a Girl Scout. She started volunteering at 12 years old.

[Zing Singh]

And she pushed herself to get through school in order to graduate with honors. She said, I put that same energy into building the Gap.

[Simon Jones]

She must have been smart, though, because she graduated. Not the first of our billionaires to do this or drop out from it. From Stanford University in the early 1950s, one of the first women to earn an economics degree there.

[Zing Singh]

Because remember, we're not talking about the 70s or the 80s or the 90s. This is someone who went to university in the 50s.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah. And in 1953, straight after graduating age 22, Doris marries Donald, or Don Fisher.

[Zing Singh]

Now, Don was actually a longtime family friend of Doris. He was also from a middle class Jewish family in San Francisco.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, he graduated with a degree in Business Administration from the University of California, Berkeley, despite once being caught cheating in an exam on industrial relations.

[Zing Singh]

So quite a colorful character to pair up with. Doris the hard working girl made Girl.

[Simon Jones]

The hard working Girl Scout.

[Zing Singh]

He was also 6 foot 4, three years her senior, and had been captain of both the swimming and Water polo team. So quite the jock.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah. So like many women in 1940, remember that period. Soon as they got married, Doris spent the best part of the next decade having children together.

[Zing Singh]

They had three sons. Robert in 54, William in 58, and John in 1961.

[Simon Jones]

And while she was raising the boys, Don started a commercial real estate business specializing in refurbishing old hotels. And this is where the Gap's origin story comes in.

[Zing Singh]

So Don had bought a hotel in Sacramento and to make some extra money, was leasing out one of the ballrooms to a Levi's salesman who had used it as a showroom.

[Simon Jones]

And the 60s were really Levi's decade. Well, they continued to be incredibly popular and iconic, but the 60s is when they became massive.

[Zing Singh]

Yes. I mean, Levi's really, I guess you could say pioneered the jeans. So, you know, sometimes you'll see this pair of Levi's jeans called the 501s that's actually considered the first ever pair of jeans in history. You know, the founders of Levi's even patented it. And the 60s, you think back to rock and roll stars, they were wearing jeans. Dean for the first time, James Dean, Rebel Without A Cause. So jeans were really, and I know this seems crazy now because they are everywhere. They were very much a new trendy thing.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, they were sort of countercultural in a way. They were workwear originally, and then they became fashion wear in the 60s.

[Zing Singh]

And you know, we talk now about workwear being a huge trend. You look at brands like, for instance, Carhartt. Yeah, you can talk about people wearing Carhartt who have never worked in manual labor a day in their life. But Levi's was really the brand that kicked it all off.

[Simon Jones]

So Levi's were gaining huge popularity. Don himself, Don Fisher, bought a couple of pairs from the salesman, but he couldn't find the right fit.

[Zing Singh]

So him and Doris began doing some market research. And even the big department stores like Macy's didn't carry every style, size and color, and they often sold out of the most popular ones.

[Simon Jones]

So this was their light bulb moment, if you like. They thought about a one stop shop that brought together every style, every color, every size that Levi Strauss had to offer.

[Zing Singh]

Darden said at the time, I didn't plan to go into the clothing business. I just wanted to take the nightmare out of shopping for Levi's and to offer an easy, well organized shopping experience that would appeal to a guy like me.

[Simon Jones]

So he went to Levi's with this idea and a guy called Bud Robinson, who was Levi's director, of advertising was pretty impressed. And he agreed to a novel system of supply and inventory.

[Zing Singh]

Levi's would guarantee every style, and they'd never run out of stock by offering overnight daily shipments from their warehouse.

[Simon Jones]

So in August 1969, Don and Doris open a shop of their own.

[Zing Singh]

And now, really unusually for the time, Doris and Don decided to be equal partners. And she said, frankly, I would have always assumed that women were getting paid the same amount as men. I mean, they were doing the same jobs, but. But back when we started Gap, of course they were. That was a time when I don't think it occurred to many people that women could be leaders.

[Simon Jones]

So Don and Doris invested $63,000. They each put in 21,000, and the other 21,000 came from a raid on their children's bank accounts. And they promised to pay them back one day for the rest. And, boy, did they. And will they. We'll see.

[Zing Singh]

So when asked why she and Don decided to contribute equally to the startup costs, she answered, why not? It didn't even dawn on me to do anything differently. We were doing it together as partners. So, of course, I put in the same amount of money. Money as Don did.

[Simon Jones]

So their plan was to cater exclusively to teenagers, college kids, and the store was strategically placed on Ocean Avenue, right near two colleges and a high school.

[Zing Singh]

Now, remember, we're Talking about the 60s, the summer of love in San Francisco, which is really the epicenter of this new emerging youth culture.

[Simon Jones]

Haight, Ashbury area. You've got the Grateful Dead, you've got Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, acid everywhere, okay? And at first, all they stocked was men's Levi's, jeans and vinyl records.

[Zing Singh]

Now, Don had planned to call the store Pants and Discs, but Doris persuaded him otherwise. I have to say, I don't think Pants and Discs would have turned into an international clothing empire.

[Simon Jones]

It's one of those sliding doors moments. We would not be here talking about this story if Pants and Discs was their name. So Doris came up with the idea the gap, in reference to the generation gap, which a lot of people were talking about at that time during this period. She had the idea they'd just been to a cocktail party, apparently, where the generation gap was discussed. So there was the kind of war generation, and then there was the post war generation. And this was seen as a big gap in terms of everything, really, in terms of lived experience, in terms of technological innovation, in terms of cultural freedoms, things like the contraceptive pill. I think that's kind of important part in all of this.

[Zing Singh]

And also you know, morals, values, ethics. You know, this entire idea of the Summer of Love, of tuning in and dropping out, that would have been absolutely anathema to, you know, the people who served in World War II. So the gap was really a kind of all encompassing brand that signaled that the call was for cool young people, not your dad and mom.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, not for the so called silent generation. This is for you guys. So Doris at This time was 38. Dom was 41. They were selling to a younger generation, but they both worked at the store. Doris said, I used to wear the clothes, of course, and I could always sell what I was wearing.

[Zing Singh]

And the Gap is credited with inventing speciality retail. Now, at the time, clothes shopping mostly happened in department stores. So think of places like Macy's, which catered to the older generation.

[Simon Jones]

But the Gaps concept was new and fun. The store was painted in bright colors. It played rock music.

[Zing Singh]

They actually soon dropped selling vinyl records because, as Don said, the pants were selling the records, not the other way around.

[Simon Jones]

That's a smart spot. They were also innovative at merchandising. They would display jeans together by size rather than by style, meaning you could go in and shop all the styles easily at once. So, you know, here's my size, here's the range available for me.

[Zing Singh]

Don said, I viewed things with the eye of a real estate man, not a retailer. I always looked for ways to get the most out of square footage, to go beyond the floor space. I created a honeycomb of cubicles on the walls. I'd never seen this done before, but it seemed so logical, I wondered why not? So actually, when you think about it, a lot of the things we now associate with a traditional retail experience, the Gap was basically at the forefront of it.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, all this means the store was gaining in popularity. It was helped by a big marketing campaign. And according to Bud Robinson, the guy from Levi's, Don had insisted that Levi's pay 50% of the stores. Radio advertising upfront. That's really interesting.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah. And when you think about how few places there were at the time to advertise to young people, actually demanding that as part of the deal is pretty smart.

[Simon Jones]

And also to this day, you sometimes see co marketing, where you see one brand will be advertising another store, there'll be sort of joint marketing. So I think this is the first time probably it's ever been done.

[Zing Singh]

So the radio ads would run on radio almost every day and in Bud's words, bombard every hearing Bay Area teenager and show, really drive them to the store.

[Simon Jones]

And just a Year after launching, they opened a second store in San Jose, a city close to San Francisco, and began selling Levi's for women.

[Zing Singh]

Now, by 1971, sales were two and a half million dollars, but net profit was just 116,000.

[Simon Jones]

So the next few years, they began a big expansion plan. They opened smaller stores to keep rent low. This meant they could even open more sites and get their name out there. This is the beginning of what in retail terms used to be called the space race.

[Zing Singh]

The space race. The space on the high street.

[Simon Jones]

Exactly.

[Zing Singh]

So by its third anniversary, the Gap had 25 stores across the U.S. it.

[Simon Jones]

Was all about convenience and easy shopping. For example, stores in New York were placed as close as possible to bus stops and big retailers to get as much footfall, as many people passing as possible.

[Zing Singh]

And until now, they'd just been stocking Levi's. But in 1974, they started selling Gap label clothing. So those wardrobe basics like cords, chinos, casual shirts, T shirts.

[Simon Jones]

So that growth, plus the introduction of their own branded clothing. Big moment. Meant that by 1975, with 50 stores, Gap's net profit was US$4.3 million.

[Zing Singh]

And as sole owners of the company, it's therefore probably safe to say that Doris at the age of 44 and Don, at age 47, are millionaires. In 1975, okay.

[Simon Jones]

And that year they spent $211,000, that's around equal to US$1.2 million today, to buy a summer home 30 miles of San Francisco in the town of Atherton. I'm not sure you could get the house they bought for one point million today, because real estate has also gone up massively in the Bay Area. That wouldn't get you a broom cupboard these days.

[Zing Singh]

No, you'd have to fight 20 different programmers to get that kind of space.

[Simon Jones]

Now, over the next three decades, they would spend 17 and a half million dollars to grow it into a big eight acre estate. And a few years ago, Doris put it on the market for 100 million. There we go. That's what I was talking about. Although it eventually only sold for 50 million. Oh, dear.

[Zing Singh]

So they're millionaires, but how do they get to a billion? So the next step is taking their company public, but it's not going to go as well for them as some of our other billionaires.

[Michael Lewis]

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite Moneyball, the Blind side and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our teams, our states and ourselves. Join me and listen to against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search against the Rules. Listen to against the rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Simon Jones]

So how do they get from a million to a billion? As we've said with many of our billionaires, Doris and Don decide to take their company public, have an initial public offering IPO. So in May 1976, the Gap stores Inc. Makes an initial offering, selling shares at $18 per share.

[Zing Singh]

But that same month, the Federal Trade Commission accuses Levi Strauss of price fixing across its retailers.

[Simon Jones]

Years later, Levi Strauss settled this antitrust as competition suit against it to the tune of millions, but without admissions of wrongdoing. But at the time of Gap's ipo, these accusations against Gap's main supplier, biggest business partner, didn't look good.

[Zing Singh]

And later that year, the Gap reported its first loss after 26 consecutive quarters of profit. And Gap stocks fell to $7.25 per share, dropping more than half in less than a year.

[Simon Jones]

That's a bad result for an ipo. You don't lose half your money in less than a year. And Don, in fact, wrote in his autobiography that stock went into a tailspin. Investors screamed for our hides, accusing us of wrongdoing.

[Zing Singh]

And actually there were nine separate class action suits from stock purchasers who accused Don and Doris of trying to dump their holdings before the Gap announced bad news.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, that's quite interesting, isn't it? So you have your IPO and then almost immediately you have this big lawsuit that comes out which sends your stock down. And the suspicion you would have as an investor is like you knew something like this was coming. You sold up before the bad news hit. No evidence that's the case, but that's what investors would have thought.

[Zing Singh]

Now, the sec, the securities and Exchange Commission, actually investigated these complaints, but they found no criminal wrongdoing. But they did say that Gap hadn't released all pertinent financial information to their investors. Now, Gap eventually settled with the SEC and subsequently also settled the related investor lawsuits for a total of $5.8 million.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah. Mark Cohen, director of retail studies at Columbia Business School, who worked for Don in the late 1970s, said of that whole Levi saga, it became a big enough problem that Gap strategically felt they had to migrate away from Levi's big moment.

[Zing Singh]

And so in 1978, Gap launches its own in house jeans, although they continue to stock Levi's.

[Simon Jones]

But people were starting to wonder if the Gap that was really destined for success. By the beginning of the 1980s, they had over 300 stores. But what had initially been its strength, the narrow assortment of things on offer and targeted custom base, was beginning to look like a bit of a weakness.

[Zing Singh]

So the question was, would the store age with them or would they keep targeting young people? And by the end of the 1970s, a cultural change was in the air again. And over the early 80s, the Gap's fortunes started to go down.

[Simon Jones]

And I remember this. I was around in the 80s, believe it or not. Well, you probably do believe that the casual look was out. And this was the era of power dressing, Wall street suits, big shoulder pads.

[Zing Singh]

Big hair as well.

[Simon Jones]

Big hair, huge hair. And on top of that, department stores had begun to get their act together. They offered several specialty outlets under one roof.

[Zing Singh]

And Don and Doris were both now in their 50s. So, you know, they needed to move with the times and make some big changes.

[Simon Jones]

Their first gamble is purchasing clothing company banana Republic in 1983. That was a Banana Republic customer, I'm sad to say. It's all sort of safari and travel style clothes. It made you look like a kind of casual Indiana Jo.

[Zing Singh]

Right. I would love to see a picture of you from this time. I'm imagining safari chinos and the hat.

[Simon Jones]

Yes, that look was popular. They began a big expansion program of Banana Republic, opened dozens of stores.

[Zing Singh]

But within a few years, unfortunately for Simon, in the 80s, the safari look was no longer in style and Banana Republic was starting to struggle.

[Simon Jones]

So they also had a go at buying something else. They bought a homeware business called Pottery Barn, but they sold it within two years after absorbing $14 million in losses.

[Zing Singh]

And Don said that the failure was an important lesson. He said, I decided I would never again and get involved with a business I didn't already know and understand. Which is quite a different attitude to some of our other billionaires.

[Simon Jones]

That's true, yes. Usually they think the rest of the world is totally wrong when they're completely right and they'll keep going until they're proved right. So their next move was important, though, because there was a little touch of humility, I think, which came in here and realizing they didn't know everything, they're in their 50s, they're in the fashion business. You could argue this is a younger person's game. So they found one.

[Zing Singh]

So they did. They hired a man who would become known as, as the Merchant Prince and the man who dressed America.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, Retail Expert Mickey Drexler was a 39 year old from the Bronx, where he'd had to sleep in the foyer of his family's apartment.

[Zing Singh]

So he doesn't come from much, but he was known for his take no prisoners management style. And over the years, he would actually often clash with Don and Doris.

[Simon Jones]

So he was given a senior role as president of Gap Stores, and he set about overhauling their entire image. He spent $8 million to remodel 500 stores. That sounds pretty cheap, to remodel 500 stores. He painted them all white with wood floors polished twice a week and gave it a fresh, clean look. That's the Gap I think we would all recognize.

[Zing Singh]

He slashed prices to sell off old merchandise so he could introduce new lines of clothing. And initially, the markets were not into it. So profits in the company's stock initially plunged. But Mickey Drexler had a vision, and he stuck with it.

[Simon Jones]

And he described the clothes he was going for as not high risk fashion, but good taste, good style, not too far to the left, not too far to the right.

[Zing Singh]

And they focused on casual, cool basics. So, you know, those khakis, jeans, T shirts. But he also added a wider range of styles, and all in an extensive color range. And that kind of range of color, I think, is one of the most distinctive things about the Gap now.

[Simon Jones]

Things like the classic pocket T shirt that was a big hit, and in 1985, it was worn by both Mick Jagger, who was performing at Live aid, and Marty McFly and Back to the Future. So it's an 80s icon.

[Zing Singh]

And they more than doubled the number of stars for women, adding things like blouses and dresses.

[Simon Jones]

And because their original custom base, the baby boomers, were now becoming parents themselves. They also launched Gap Kids, followed a few years later by Baby Gap.

[Zing Singh]

And they also expanded outside the US So they opened several stores in London, England, and a store in Vancouver, Canada.

[Simon Jones]

But their rapid expansion and the impressive work ethic that the Fishers cultivated led one British retail consultant to say they were the most anal people I have ever met. Comparing the Gap to the Moonies, which is a common nickname for the leaders of the South Korean religious group, the Unification Church.

[Zing Singh]

They also revamped Banana Republic. So they got rid of that safari theme, and they brought in sportswear.

[Simon Jones]

Mickey's plan was working. The New York Times at the time called it one of the most remarkable turnarounds in retailing history.

[Zing Singh]

So by 1987, Don and Doris's net worth had reached $500 million. So they're officially halfway to a Billion.

[Simon Jones]

And at the end of the 1980s, they brought in the navy and white square Gap logo that was launched. So the brand was ready for its heyday, the 1990s.

[Zing Singh]

Now enter 1991. Gap Inc. As it's called, has 950 stores with $2 billion in sales.

[Simon Jones]

It's the second best selling brand in American clothing after their old partners, Levi Strauss.

[Zing Singh]

And that was the year they also stopped selling Levi's. And at the time, both companies said it was a mutual breakup. Although in his autobiography, Don said that Levi's actually dumped them first. He said clearly understood how much they feared the Gap label as serious competition to the Levi brand.

[Simon Jones]

Now that's interesting. So from being a reseller essentially of Levi's Stuff, a retail outlet for Levi's, Levi's were now fearing the Gap label was going to be a serious competitor to the Levi brand itself. And as we'll see, they were right. That was the same year that Doris and Don are first listed together as billionaires by Fortune magazine, worth $1.9 billion with a nearly 41% shareholding of the Gap Gap.

[Zing Singh]

So Doris and Don are officially billionaires, she at the age of 60 and him at age 63.

[Simon Jones]

So how do we go beyond a billion? The 1990s is considered by many to be Gap's best decade. It was one of almost total commercial and even cultural domination. It was a big cultural thing as well.

[Zing Singh]

It was a huge cultural force. And actually you can tell because for the front cover of US Vogue's 100th anniversary issue. So this is a really, really big deal. They got 10 supermodels, and that includes models who are called the supers. You know, people like Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Claudia Schiffer. And they were all put in white jeans from the Gap and shirts. So that tells you a little bit about how cool the Gap was considered at the time.

[Simon Jones]

Sharon stone wore a $25 Gap black turtleneck to the Oscars. And they were even satirized on Saturday Night Live, famous satirical show in the US the skit fe Adam Sandler, David Spade, and Chris Farley as Gap girls. Don and Doris thought this was great. They thought it was the ultimate compliment.

[Zing Singh]

And a New York Times article from the 90s said this about the gap. As ubiquitous as McDonald's, as centrally managed as the former Soviet Union, and as American as Mickey Mouse. The Gap, Inc. Has you covered from the cradle to the grave.

[Simon Jones]

I've got a feeling that the seeds of the demise of the Gap are being sown with editorials like that. Because when you go on the COVID of the 100th anniversary of Vogue and everyone's wearing your stuff, the only way is down. But they didn't rest on their laurels. In 1994, they founded a new startup brand selling lower priced clothes to compete with the popularity of the rise of discount stores. Things like TK Maxx, TJ Maxx in.

[Zing Singh]

The US now, this was actually Mickey's idea, and it was originally called Gap Warehouse. But Don was concerned it would negatively impact the profit margins of the Gap.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, why would you go to the Gap when you can get the cheapest stuff at Gap Warehouse?

[Zing Singh]

Exactly.

[Simon Jones]

So they changed the name of it to distinguish it from that. They changed the name to Old Navy, apparently after a bar Mickey had seen in Par. And Mickey's bet was right. Old Navy was the first retailer to make a billion dollars in under four years.

[Zing Singh]

And within 10 years, Old Navy had a staggering 800 stores.

[Simon Jones]

And perhaps because of the success of old Navy, in 1995, Mickey took over from Don Fisher as chief executive of Gap Inc. With Don remaining as president.

[Zing Singh]

And by the end of the decade, Gap Inc's net profit was over $1 billion.

[Simon Jones]

So Doris and Don's wealth was now listed separately by Forbes. They were each worth $4.3 billion, making them 92nd richest people in the world.

[Zing Singh]

So they're sitting pretty on the billionaire list. But fashion really is a cruel mistress, because the Gap was about to go out of fashion.

[Simon Jones]

It had been founded on rebellious youth culture during the Summer of Love, but it was now seen as a corporate giant. It was known for blandness, ubiquitous consumerism, basically boring.

[Zing Singh]

Basically boring. Bland and tasteless. So actually, if you watched the popular Gen X film Reality Bites with Winona Ryder, it actually portrayed at the Gap as the ultimate sellout job. And in the 90s, there was no bigger insult than saying you were a sellout.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, even Joey, the character in Friends, was disgusted when he sees Ross sporting the same Gap shirt as him in a 2004 episode of Friends. And he moans, stupid Gap on every corner.

[Zing Singh]

So it turns out that actually having hundreds of stores and being that ubiquitous in fashion at least works against you.

[Simon Jones]

It ultimately always does. There's always going to be something new and the people first to follow the edifices, Right?

[Zing Singh]

Exactly. So if you want to stay popular, you have to continuously reinvent yourself to stay relevant. And, you know, Gap at this point hasn't really expanded its offering or made any interesting pivots into anything else. That is why I think partly it began its descent.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, and also at this time, they were also getting some bad press over the conditions of workers making their clothes in developing countries, including the use of child labour.

[Zing Singh]

Now, we should say the company responded over the next few years by putting in place systems to eliminate such practices, although it won't be the first or last time they're found to have used.

[Simon Jones]

Child labour or the only company to have had those problems. It's been a widespread problem in the.

[Zing Singh]

Clothing industry, but unfortunately the damage had been done. The Gap was seen as a symbol of consumerism and the damaging effects of globalization.

[Simon Jones]

And that showed up in the profits. They started to plummet. From 1 billion in 1999, it made 875 million in 2000 and just 475 million. So half of that in 2002.

[Zing Singh]

All this meant that Mickey was replaced as CEO. In 2002, the board said he stepped down, but Mickey has repeatedly said that he was fired. He said, don and I would both agree that it didn't end pretty, but we had a hell of a run together building a really great company.

[Simon Jones]

But it was the end of an era. That dynamic threesome of Don, Doris and Mickey that had proved so successful was now over.

[Zing Singh]

Now, don't feel too sad for Mickey, because he went on to become the chairman and CEO of J. Crew, another big American retail giant. And he kept his colorful character there. He got a tannoy system installed in the office to blast his comms out to staff a dozen times a day, which included musing on sales moccasins, Lady Gaga and the weather.

[Simon Jones]

I bet the staff loved that. Back to the fishers, though. In 2003, Doris stepped down as chief merchandiser aged 72, and a year later, Don stepped down as chairman aged 76, to be succeeded by their son, Bob.

[Zing Singh]

And Don and Doris also transferred control of half of the 19% stake in the company to their three sons.

[Simon Jones]

Both Doris and Don remained members of the board and never missed a board.

[Zing Singh]

Meeting until, unfortunately, in 2009, Doris lost Don. He died at home in San Francisco from cancer at the age of 81.

[Simon Jones]

At that time, sales at Gap were down, but they were still a staggering $15 billion. They employed more than 134,000 people in over 3,000 stores across 25 countries. Quite the thing.

[Zing Singh]

And earlier that year, Forbes had still listed the Fisher family on their rich list as being worth $4.9 billion.

[Simon Jones]

Well, since then, a lot of people listening will know the story. Gap struggles on, but it never returned to the heights of its 1990s heyday.

[Zing Singh]

In 2019. The Fisher family lost a billion dollars in under a year as Gap Inc. Stock plummeted. Doris, by the way, still owns 6.1% and her sons have just under 30%.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah. So what happens, what happened to Gap then? We've talked a little bit about how they became a symbol of globalism, consumerism, exploitation, just boringness. And as always in fashion, the compet competition never sits still.

[Zing Singh]

Yep. There was just simply too much competition from other cheap casual clothing lines. You know, we think about companies like Inditex which own Zara, H and M. You know, you've also got the rise of supermarket clothing brands in the uk, for instance, we've got supermarkets like ASDA creating their own fashion.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah. And you've also got of course, the likes of ASOS and what have you, the crushing rise of online retail.

[Zing Singh]

Yes. And the rise of, don't forget fast fashion, which continuously pumps out new lines of clothing and new styles.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah.

[Zing Singh]

Now, in spite of the fall of the Gap, the house of Gap, the Fisher family itself are still all billionaires. So together, Doris three sons are worth $6.1 billion.

[Simon Jones]

And Doris, aged 93 on her own is worth $1.5 billion. And she still serves as honorary lifetime director on the board of gap Inc. At 93 years old.

[Zing Singh]

So a woman whose life has Spanish and the Summer of Love to the power decade of the 80s to the 90s to now and still a billionaire.

[Simon Jones]

Incredible really. And actually what was interesting is that they were quite a bit older than their target market throughout and she's still on the board at 93. So got staying power. You've got to give her that.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah. Even though the fall from grace has been pretty steep if you're able to sell to people half your age in fashion, I mean we've got to give her props for.

[Simon Jones]

So Let us judge. 93 year old Doris Fisher, worth $1.5 billion. We have a number of categories, as people familiar with the podcast will know. And we start out with just absolute wealth. And this is not just how much you've got, but how you spent it in your life.

[Zing Singh]

So together with her husband, Doris has amassed one of the world's leading private collections of contemporary art worth around $1 billion. Some of it you can actually see at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, but they both had a great interest in art. They made a packed from the outset that all the pieces they bought had to be mutually agreed. I just love that. Can you imagine being the salesperson for like, I don't know, $10 million piece of art. You got Don on board, but Doris isn't convinced. Or Doris is on board, but Don's not convinced. You're saying please, please agree, Please.

[Zing Singh]

My commission depends on it.

[Simon Jones]

Exactly. Since the death of Don, Doris has almost completely stopped buying art. Maybe because she couldn't get his agreements. Rather sad story.

[Zing Singh]

So how would you judge her based on wealth?

[Simon Jones]

I'm gonna give her a four because she's not a one and a half billion on her own. 6.3 billion with her family. She's nowhere near the top of the tree. But amassing a $1 billion art collection is a pretty wealthy kind of thing to do. So I'm gonna give her a four.

[Zing Singh]

I think I'll give her slightly less new. Actually, I think I'll give her a 3 out of 10. She reminds me a lot in some ways of. Do you remember Mucha Prada?

[Simon Jones]

Yes.

[Zing Singh]

Who has also collected a vast collection of art, but has also also started exhibiting it to the public.

[Simon Jones]

Okay, you're three. I'm four. Rags to riches. This is how far have they come from their either humble or not so humble beginnings to be featured on our podcast?

[Zing Singh]

Well, I think if your parents marriage is announced in the society pages of the New York Times and it's held.

[Simon Jones]

At the Ritz Carlton, one of the glitziest hotel chains in the world, I.

[Zing Singh]

Don'T think you've got a very good claim to saying you've got a rags to riches journey.

[Simon Jones]

He's a Republican state legislator, so, you know, well placed in powerful circles.

[Zing Singh]

She was really well educated. She went to Stanford at a time when not a lot of women were going to university in the first place.

[Simon Jones]

I think what we've proved on this podcast is that going to Stanford or getting in and then dropping out is literally a license to print money.

[Zing Singh]

Well, if you're an A level student or an 18 year old wondering where to go to university and you want to make a lot of money, think about Stanford.

[Simon Jones]

Spoiler alert. It cost about $100,000 a year to go there.

[Zing Singh]

So I think Doris will probably be well placed to afford that given that she didn't have a particularly working class background.

[Simon Jones]

Fine. So rags to rich is low. I would say she'd get pretty rich, but she's not like hundreds of billions like some of ours. So I'm going to give her a four.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, I think I'll give her a four out of ten as well.

[Simon Jones]

Okay. Villainy. What have they done to get to the top? Who have they done over? What sharp moves have they made well.

[Zing Singh]

Some of the stories that have come out around workers. Conditions for the Gap in their outsourced factories are really bad. So in 1999, the Independent newspaper reported Chinese workers making Gap clothing were forced to have abortions.

[Simon Jones]

In 2000, a BBC Panorama program uncovered sweatshot working conditions and child labor at textiles factories in Cambodia.

[Zing Singh]

And in 2004, Gap released its first social responsibility report and admitted to widespread problems including child labor violations and unsafe machinery in factories it used around the world.

[Simon Jones]

So the Gap responded to some of these discoveries, these exposes, by terminating contracts with scores of factories. But in 2007 and the observer filmed a 10 year old boy making Gap clothes who said he'd been working for four months without pay, while another 12 year old boy said he was beaten if bosses thought they were not working hard enough.

[Zing Singh]

And at the time a Gap spokesperson said, we have a strict prohibition on child labor and we are taking this very seriously.

[Simon Jones]

Now, there's no defense to this, but it should be noted that lots of clothing manufacturers have had similar problems in basically ironing out or being vigilant enough or auditing sufficiently their supply chain because often they'll have contracts with independent contractors in countries where they have got very little oversight and visibility that generally is improving through the industry. But the Gap is not alone in having these problems.

[Zing Singh]

No. So how should we judge them for this kind of oversight? Like you say, a lot of clothing companies fall foul of this as well.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, I think they are probably middle of the pack when it comes to oversight of this. There are worse examples, a Primark factory, for example, collapse killing does of Bangladeshi workers. So I think they're middle of the pack in this area. On villainy, the other things we talk about a villainy are what did they do to their colleagues, their business partners, their business partners. And on the colleagues and business partners, there's nothing outstanding. It seems to me from their story that they were particularly ruthless or villainous.

[Zing Singh]

No, I mean the person you'd look at is how they treated Mickey though. And he still seemed, even though he said he'd been fired, to have looked back on his time at the Gap relatively fondly.

[Simon Jones]

I got the feeling in the end there were no harm feelings there. We had a good run, we clashed a few times. It didn't end very well. But that's life.

[Zing Singh]

I think also the Gap, maybe when we look back on all of this, maybe one of the first brands to be considered part of the fast fashion wave. So you know that trend of cheap, accessible clothing, you can buy a white T shirt. And you can buy another one a week later because it's so cheap.

[Simon Jones]

It's funny. I don't associate Gap with fast fashion. I associate them with kind. Kind of basics you don't have to replace because they're so plain, they're so ubiquitous. They're the kind of basics that you just have in your wardrobe, like a T shirt, which actually lasts quite a long time.

[Zing Singh]

That's interesting. Maybe this is the generation gap, the gap spotted in the market squared. Yeah. Inception gap.

[Simon Jones]

Okay, so villainy. I. I'm gonna say I'm gonna go less than average, I would say, on this one. So I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go for a three.

[Zing Singh]

Oh, wow. Okay. I'm gonna go for a six out of ten, actually.

[Simon Jones]

Wow. This is a big divergence.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah.

[Simon Jones]

The biggest divergence of opinion we've almost ever had. That could begin the generation gap.

[Zing Singh]

Exactly.

[Simon Jones]

Philanthropy. So how much have they given away? What have they done for society and communities in which they work?

[Zing Singh]

So they started the gap foundation in 1977, the year after Gap went public. At the time of Don's death, it's actually donated more than $100 million to various court.

[Simon Jones]

They're interested in education. Doris and Don used quite a lot of their wealth and resources supporting U.S. charter schools, which are schools that are publicly funded but independently run. And they've donated $100 million of their own money to that.

[Zing Singh]

Now, it's worth noting that charter schools are also the subject of quite a lot of criticism. So in the past, they've denied enrolment to low performing and other potentially inverted commerce undesirable students. They've also suspended African American and disabled students at higher rates than traditional schools schools.

[Simon Jones]

So what credit you give them for their donations to charter schools will depend very heavily on what you think of charter schools. But philanthropy is clearly important to Doris. She said, some people at my age play bridge all day, but I love the work I do in our communities. I love being able to help people who have fewer opportunities. My family and our employers are that way too. It makes me proud to see and hear about things they do to help other people.

[Zing Singh]

Tricky one, tricky one, this. I feel like I'm tempted to go straight down the middle and give them a 5 out of 10 for this.

[Simon Jones]

I'm gonna go lower than that. I think one of the things that offends me is people who spend things on their own pet projects. You know, for example, charter schools is a pet project which not everyone agrees with. So they get no marks of that, for me, that leaves 100 million to various courses from the Gap Foundation. And also when you compare that to the $1.1 billion they spent on their own art collection, again, they get a three from me.

[Zing Singh]

That is very true, actually. I think maybe for the first time, you're going to convince me to go down to three.

[Simon Jones]

Yes, I finally convinced you. Rather than the other way around. This is a first.

[Zing Singh]

So now we come to power. How much power does Doris Fisher and Don, when he was alive, wield?

[Simon Jones]

Well, they're both Republicans and prominent political donors. They were financial backers of California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and President George W. Bush.

[Zing Singh]

But they also donate across the political divide. They've donated to Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein and. And the House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi.

[Simon Jones]

I just love the way rich people do that in America. They back both horses in the race.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah. They spread their bets, they hedge the bets.

[Simon Jones]

Well, Forbes also reported that Doris was among 20 billionaires who are part of a dark money group in inverted commas that opposed Barack Obama's election campaign in 2012. Along with her sons, she donated nearly 9 million to the group called Americans for Job Security. So she's in the weeds. You know, she's in there in the political circle circles. I wouldn't say that she's a particularly powerful figure.

[Zing Singh]

No. Because I guess you have to put it into context of the fact that political donors in America are spending silly amounts of money. Millions, billions.

[Simon Jones]

Everyone who's rich in America pretty much is a political donor. Everyone.

[Zing Singh]

And she's nowhere near the level of other billionaires we've covered, like Sam Bankman Fried, who was donating way more than that, millions and millions to the Democrats.

[Simon Jones]

Or Elon Musk, who said he was going to, for example, to bring it right up to date, was going to give $50 million a month to President Trump's reelection campaign. So not in that category at all. And obviously doesn't also own a global website where you can publish your own opinions. If Doris tried to call the White House right now, they would say, are you calling to give me fashion advice?

[Zing Singh]

I think they'd say, please hold the line. We'll get back to you.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, I think power. I would give him a two.

[Zing Singh]

Yeah, I think power. She would score, unfortunately, quite lowly. So 2 out of 10, but not legacy.

[Simon Jones]

I think the gap is quite an interesting story. Right. It's right up there.

[Zing Singh]

It really is. And I think in the 90s, at least, you could say that the gap was one of those all American Brands that were completely ubiquitous. You know, brands like you would now say things like Apple, Google, Levi's, McDonald's. McDonald's. At the time, Gap was right up there.

[Simon Jones]

Yeah, it was a cultural export to the rest of the world as well. There was, you know, what does America look like? When you said, what does America look like? It looked a bit like the Gap.

[Zing Singh]

It looked a bit like the Gap campaigns of happy, smiling, multicultural families wearing colorful clothing on a white background. I mean, you can basically see the campaign.

[Simon Jones]

I can see that campaign in my mind's eye. And that's quite a powerful legacy. So I would score them high on legacy. Also a salutary tale about how when you become too big and too ubiquitous and too kind of all encompassing when it comes to fashion, you've got a massive target on your back as well.

[Zing Singh]

It's interesting that fashion is one of those few industries where the phrase too big to fail doesn't come in.

[Simon Jones]

It's really interesting. It's not like Google, for example. You know, breaking Google stranglehold on search engines has proved almost impossible. We'll see whether ChatGPT can do that. But bringing down a fashion giant like Gap and saying that that's not for trending, that can happen overnight almost.

[Zing Singh]

And it's interesting to think that other billionaires we've covered, like Bernard Arnault, are in fashion, but the reason why they've become so rich is because they kind of spread their risk across several different massive clothing brands.

[Simon Jones]

Bernard Arnault and his empire is a house of brands rather than the brand in itself.

[Zing Singh]

So the Gap in terms of legacy, I think is a really interesting one. I would actually score it really highly. I'd say even an eight or nine out of ten.

[Simon Jones]

I'm going to go eight, definitely.

[Zing Singh]

So finally we come to the ultimate judgment. Is Doris Fisher good, bad, or just another billionaire?

[Simon Jones]

This one's pretty easy for me. She's just another billionaire. You know, there's nothing particularly good about the story. There's nothing particularly bad about the story about her. It's interesting that she clothed America and gave us a vision of what America looked like and that eventually was bound to crumble at some point. But I don't think I can put her in the good or bad category. She's just got a very nice art collection and she is just another billionaire.

[Zing Singh]

I'm going to agree with you. For me, she's just another billionaire. I mean, maybe the corporate blandness of Gap has kind of seeped into my judgment.

[Simon Jones]

So do you find that almost offensive.

[Zing Singh]

I think that, and maybe this is very much a product of being in the 21st century. I think that there's no longer a way that any one company can dominate the visual aesthetic of a generation in the same way that Gap has done. I think that, you know, even Levi's have had to innovate and change their image repeatedly and continuously, and Gap never managed to do that. Okay, so for me, she is just another billionaire.

[Simon Jones]

Okay, that was a fascinating critique of what you say. Never dominate the aesthetic of a generation ever again. Watch this space. Maybe there's another. Yeah, maybe another Gap will appear in the market. And for our last of the current series, Good Bad Billionaires, Sad Times. Who are we going to end with?

[Zing Singh]

We've got none other than the man who has been called the Dungeon Master for reasons that will become very clear in the episode.

[Simon Jones]

For me, one of the smartest, most odd people I've ever interviewed. His fingerprints are all over some of the biggest tech companies that we've discussed. His story links in with many others, including Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Donald Trump. Oh, that's right, it is Peter Thiel, angel investor in Facebook, seemingly an enemy of government democracy, but also has some lucrative contracts with them too. Good Bad Billionaire was produced by Hannah Hufford and Louise Morris, with additional production support from Emma Betteridge. James Cook is the editor and it's a BBC Studios production for BBC World Service.

[Zing Singh]

For the BBC World Service, the podcast commissioning editor is John Man.

[Michael Lewis]

Hey there, it's Michael Lewis, author of Going Infinite Moneyball, the Blind side and Liars Poker. On the latest season of my podcast, against the Rules, I'm exploring what it means to be a sports fan in America and what the rise of sports betting is doing to our team, our states and ourselves. Join me and listen to against the Rules on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search against the Rules. Listen to against the rules on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.