Sir James Dyson: Sucking up the cash

Summary

Good Bad Billionaire: Sir James Dyson – Sucking Up the Cash

Released on March 24, 2025 | BBC World Service

In this compelling episode of Good Bad Billionaire, hosts Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng delve deep into the life and legacy of Sir James Dyson, the British inventor and entrepreneur renowned for revolutionizing the vacuum cleaner industry. From humble beginnings to billionaire status, the episode unpacks Dyson’s relentless pursuit of innovation, his business acumen, and the controversies that have marked his journey.

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Early Life and Education

James Dyson was born in 1947 in a coastal town in Norfolk, England, into a family striving to rebuild post-World War II. His father, Alec Dyson, a classics master at Gresham’s School, was a cheerful polymath whose untimely death from cancer when James was just nine years old profoundly impacted the young Dyson. This loss instilled in him a sense of self-reliance and a willingness to take risks—a theme that would resonate throughout his career.

Despite not being a standout student in science, Dyson pursued his passion for art at the Byam Shaw School of Art and later transitioned to furniture and product design at the Royal College of Art. Here, his exposure to structural engineering and his dissatisfaction with traditional materials like wood set the stage for his future innovations.

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The Invention of the Bagless Vacuum Cleaner

Dyson’s pivotal moment came in the early 1980s when frustration with his Hoover Junior vacuum cleaner’s frequent clogs led him to deconstruct the machine. He discovered that the bag was not only full but also acted as a restrictive filter, diminishing suction even with minimal dust. This irritation sparked the idea for a bagless vacuum cleaner.

Drawing inspiration from cyclone separators used in industrial settings to prevent clogging, Dyson embarked on creating a miniature version for household use. His determination saw him building over 5,000 prototypes ("...He made over 5,000 prototypes before he found a design that really worked." [18:17]) before finally patenting the Dual Cyclone technology in 1982.

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Struggles and Setbacks

Despite securing a patent, Dyson’s early attempts to commercialize his invention were met with rejection from established vacuum manufacturers who saw the bagless design as a threat to their lucrative vacuum bag sales. "He said, I had visions of a vacuum revolution, but the vacuum makers had built a razor and blade business model reliant on the profits from bags and filters." ([20:02]).

Financial hardships ensued as Dyson struggled to fund his venture, leading to significant personal debt and the eventual ousting from his first company, where he lost the rights to his own invention. Reflecting on this period, Dyson remarked, "[13:08] I learned the importance of having absolute control of my company and of not undervaluing it."

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Breakthrough and Market Success

The turning point came in the early 1990s when Dyson decided to manufacture and market his vacuum cleaners independently. By leveraging strategic branding and a personal advertising campaign, he successfully penetrated the UK market. A notable moment was when Dyson personally demonstrated his product to retailers by creating a mess on a carpet and then effortlessly cleaning it—a tactic that convinced skeptics to stock his vacuum.

Dyson’s DC01 Dual Cyclone was launched in 1993, priced at nearly twice the cost of standard vacuums. Despite the higher price, its innovative design and superior performance quickly gained traction, capturing 20% of the UK market within eighteen months and earning Dyson his first million pounds by 1995.

Expanding internationally, Dyson faced fierce competition from giants like Hoover in the US. His tenacity paid off when, after a protracted legal battle, Hoover had to cease production of their infringing Cyclone model, leading to Dyson dominating the American market by 2005. "Dyson joked that he was the first Brit to conquer America since the Beatles." ([34:28])

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Diversification and Expansion

Building on his vacuum cleaner success, Dyson diversified into other home appliances, including hand dryers, hair dryers, and air purifiers. These products adhered to his core philosophy of innovative design and functionality. The Dyson Airblade, introduced in 2006, transformed the hand dryer market by significantly reducing drying time, while the Supersonic Hair Dryer became a staple in salons worldwide.

Despite these successes, Dyson faced criticism for moving his manufacturing operations from the UK to Malaysia in 2002 to cut costs, resulting in the loss of 800 British jobs. This decision sparked accusations of hypocrisy, especially after Dyson publicly advocated for British competitiveness and later supported Brexit. "I invested £40 million into a vacuum cleaner factory and I would love to still be there now, but it simply wasn't possible." ([35:00])

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Philanthropy and Influence

Beyond business, Dyson has made significant philanthropic contributions, notably donating £50 million to his alma mater, Gresham’s School, and £100 million through his foundation towards educational and medical research. His efforts in promoting engineering education have been particularly impactful, inspiring a new generation of engineers and designers. "He has given a lot away. He has got a lot." ([43:43])

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Power, Legacy, and Controversies

Dyson's influence extends into political realms, where he has actively participated in debates and policy discussions in the UK. His movements into farming, investment in household robots, and artificial intelligence reflect his ongoing commitment to innovation. However, his aggressive business tactics and political activism have not been without backlash, leading to legal battles and strained public perceptions.

Despite these controversies, Dyson's legacy as a transformative engineer and entrepreneur remains substantial. His approach to design—focusing on functionality, aesthetics, and user experience—has permanently altered multiple industries.

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Judgment: Good, Bad, or Just Another Billionaire?

In evaluating Sir James Dyson, Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng consider various facets:

• Wealth: With an estimated net worth of $13 billion as of 2025, Dyson stands as one of the UK's richest individuals. "Currently about $13 billion. But Dyson has set 2025 as the completion date for a five-year plan to double his product portfolio." ([40:24])

• Villainy: While Dyson has faced criticism for outsourcing jobs and perceived hypocrisy in his political stances, these actions are deemed low-level villainy compared to more egregious billionaires. "If you want to take a public political stance as a business person, and then you quite publicly seem to do something that goes directly against your stance... you should receive some criticism." ([41:37])

• Philanthropy: His substantial donations to education and medical research earn him a commendable score in philanthropy, reflecting targeted and impactful giving. "He has given a lot away. He has got a lot." ([43:43])

• Power and Legacy: Dyson's transformational impact on product design and engineering solidifies his legacy as a pivotal figure in British industrial history. "Dyson will go down as one of the most important engineers in British history." ([45:50])

Final Verdict: Balancing his relentless innovation and philanthropy against his controversial business decisions, Dyson is adjudged to be a good billionaire. His contributions to engineering, design, and technology markedly benefit society, despite some contentious choices along the way.

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"Inventing is cool. We need inventors. And this guy's basically reinvented the wheel." ([47:38])

Sir James Dyson’s story is a testament to perseverance and visionary thinking. His journey from a struggling inventor to a billionaire magnate encapsulates the essence of entrepreneurial grit, making him a noteworthy figure in the pantheon of modern billionaires.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I learned the importance of having absolute control of my company and of not undervaluing it." – James Dyson ([13:08])

• "I'm just a huge fan." – Robin Ince reminiscing about Dyson’s early craftsmanship ([17:20])

• "I just think things should work properly." – Dyson on his design philosophy ([32:18])

• "Dyson will go down as one of the most important engineers in British history." – Brian Cox ([45:50])

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Conclusion

Good Bad Billionaire provides an insightful exploration into James Dyson’s rise, highlighting the intricate balance between innovation, business strategy, and ethical considerations. Dyson emerges not just as another billionaire, but as a "good billionaire" whose impact on everyday life through his products is both significant and lasting.

Transcript

[Robin Ince]

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[Brian Cox]

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[Robin Ince]

Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off Jupiter versus Scepter. That was very well done, that, because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, he's gonna kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series, we're discussing history of music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, picture this scene. It's a Saturday morning at the dying end of the 1970s. We're in rural England and a tall, very tall, slender man in his early 30s, hair beginning to gray a little bit. He's vacuuming his living room. It's a nice living room in a nice house. But this man isn't rich. In fact, right now he doesn't even have a job. But he's about to have an idea. One which will gradually become an obsession and will eventually make him a billionaire. The chain of events will be set off any moment. He'll become angry, then fascinated, then dedicate years of his life to solving what seems a very simple problem. And it will all begin as soon as his vacuum cleaner becomes clogged.

[Brian Cox]

Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Each episode, we pick a billionaire and we find out how they made their money.

[Robin Ince]

Then we judge them. Are they good, bad, or just another billionaire?

[Brian Cox]

I'm Zing Singh and I'm a journalist, author and podcaster.

[Robin Ince]

And I'm Simon Jack, the BBC's business editor.

[Brian Cox]

And on this episode, we're meeting the man with the billion dollar vacuum cleaner.

[Robin Ince]

A man who at some point in his career will literally reinvent the wheel. In a manner of speaking, yes.

[Brian Cox]

He's the man who invented the world's first bagless vacuum cleaner.

[Robin Ince]

We are talking about Sir James Dyson, a designer, an inventor, entrepreneur and billionaire businessperson who is currently worth a cool $13 billion.

[Brian Cox]

That actually makes him one of the UK's richest people.

[Robin Ince]

And Dyson has a 20% share of the global vacuum cleaner market. But he didn't stop with that. He found other ways to suck up the cash.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, so now you can find Dyson hair dryers, hand dryers, headphones, air purifiers, lights. I think during COVID they came out with a headphone slash air purifier mask.

[Robin Ince]

Wow. And he even has his own university and as a sideline runs the largest farming business in the uk.

[Brian Cox]

So that's where he is now. But let's go right back to the beginning and find out how James Dyson got there. He was born at home in a coastal town in Norfolk, which is in the east of England. He was the youngest of three siblings. They live in this large Victorian house they shared with two other families.

[Robin Ince]

It's 1947, so just a couple of years after the end of the Second World War when James is born, his family is just finding their footing. After that war, his mother had been busy serving the country in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force, but just now she's settling into life as a homemaker.

[Brian Cox]

Now, James father Alec had fought in Burma during World War II, but he too was now living a rather sedate post war life. So he was the classics master at Gresham's, which is the posh local boarding school founded way back in 1555 during the reign of Bloody Mary. And that meant James and his older brother also went to that school.

[Robin Ince]

And James remembers his dad as a cheerful polymath is how he put it. He was a keen amateur photographer who coached the school's rugby and hockey teams. But sadly, James father died of cancer when James was just nine years and it left quite a lasting impact on him. He recently said that his father's death made him become self reliant very quickly and they learned to take risks.

[Brian Cox]

That death also left the family in a very precarious situation. So there was no life insurance or any other kind of income. So James's mom had to find a way to quickly support the family. And you know, we've had billionaires before who've overcome huge amounts of family adversity and hardship. You know, George Soros for instance, his family survived the Nazi occupation of Hungary.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, Warren Buffett.

[Brian Cox]

Yes, Warren Buffett. You know, he grew up during the Great Depression, when times were tight for almost every family in America.

[Robin Ince]

And I suppose in a way, that precariousness can send you in two directions. Either you want to sort of mitigate risk or you've had a tough time, so you don't mind taking it. Maybe. Meanwhile, Dyson's mum, trained as a teacher, went out to work. Money was pretty tight, but they made do. And their shared home had a big garden, so they'd always had chickens and they grew fruit and veg. And Mary didn't skimp on the family's cultural life.

[Brian Cox]

That's right. She also took them to operas by a famous composer called Benjamin Britton, who happened to live nearby. And, you know, even though they could obviously no longer afford the fees for that posh boarding school, the headteacher actually let James and his brother stay on for free.

[Robin Ince]

And that turned out to be a pretty good move by the school, because years later, the billionaire James Dyson would end up giving the school 50 million pounds, about $65 million.

[Brian Cox]

Talk about a good investment. Actually, at the time, however, James was not the best student, so he did all right in Latin and Greek. You know, his dad did teach classics, after all. And surpr, our future inventor, wasn't actually very good at science. He actually preferred art and sport.

[Robin Ince]

I would have definitely figured him for a sort of science major or something. But it was art that Dyson decided to continue studying. In 1965, aged 18, he rode down to London on a Honda 50 motorbike to begin a year at the Byam Shaw School of Art.

[Brian Cox]

Now, all these art schools at the time, I think they were really the place to be a really fertile ground for creativity.

[Robin Ince]

And he was actually taught by a few artists whilst he was there.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, so you know the op art, Bridget Riley, Peter Sedgeley, you might recognise their work. It's really bright colours, geometric shapes. So he was really kind of bubbling in that kind of cauldron of creativity and artistic expression. But as the end of his course approached, he actually still didn't know what he wanted to do with his life. The head of the school actually called him to the office to give him some advice. So we can actually hear Dyson talk about this pivotal moment in a clip from a BBC interview from 1999.

[Robin Ince]

He said, what are you gonna do next year? And I hadn't thought about it at all. And he said, well, I think you ought to try design And I'd never thought of it before because actually during that year I was only doing drawing and painting and I said, well, what sorts of designs are there? What can you design? And he said, well, it's furniture, product design. And I thought, well, I know about chairs, I've sat on chairs, I'll be a furniture designer. And I quite like the idea, I quite like the idea of constructing something useful. Yeah, chair, pretty useful. So Dyson starts studying furniture and interior design at the Royal College of Art. And he signed up for lessons beyond just design. He attended structural engineering classes given by Anthony Hunt, who was the designer of London's Waterloo Station. But he faced what he since called irritating traditionalism. He was taken aside and lectured on the importance of wood. Well, all the time he was desperate to work with things like plastic and stainless steel. And I think that tells us something about him, that he was looking for the next big thing. He didn't want to be constrained, thinking out of the box, wanting to use new materials, but bringing design sensitivity. And he wanted things to look nice, kind of in the same way that Steve Jobs perhaps did.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. So when Dyson was a student, we also saw the first signs of Dyson the businessman. So he had a friend who imported wine from Spain, so he supplied it to restaurants and Dyson got in on this. He sold it to his tutors into the college bar, obviously very, very eager customers at the university.

[Robin Ince]

And it was during this period he also met a British inventor and engineer called Jeremy Fry. Very important person in Dyson's life because this guy was pretty wealthy, he was very well connected, he was even friends with some of the Royal family. And he had an engineering company called Rotork and gave James Dyson his first job.

[Brian Cox]

Now Dyson was set to work on a new type of boat called the sea truck. So this is a high speed, flat bottom fiberglass boat which Dyson kind of turned into his third year project at university. And after Dyson finished that degree, he moved we to a city called Bath to continue working for Fry.

[Robin Ince]

And his salary there was two and a half thousand pounds a year, which might not sound like much, but it was well above the UK average of that time in 1970, the average being around 1600 pounds a year.

[Brian Cox]

Now, fast forward a few years. Dyson is at a professional crossroads. So he's been working for Fry for five years. He's got a good salary. He's also married, by the way, to Deidre, a painter he'd met at art school. By now they already had two children as A side note, they're actually still married over 55 years later, which is definitely a unusual for our billionaires. Dyson also actually has a nice old house that we mentioned at the start of this show. It was an old farmhouse in the Cotswolds, which is, if you haven't visited, a very picturesque, very upmarket part of the English countryside.

[Robin Ince]

Classic English. But he also, James Dyson, as well as having a nice house, had lots of debt, big mortgage, and that lovely house was pretty run down, in need of renovation. So Dyson decided to take a big risk. He quit his job to start his own company. And this was risky. It was 1974 and the economy was pretty ropey in the UK, so not a great time to start a business. Inflation was at 16%, it was on its way up to 24% in 1975. But Dyson had a big idea, one he'd had while doing some work around the house.

[Brian Cox]

But that's not the big idea, right?

[Robin Ince]

No, this was another idea. This is one we had. When he was renovating his house, he'd become frustrated with the wheelbarrow he was using. It was hard to steer, the wheels were always getting stuck in the muddy ground, cement stuck to it, the metal scratched the. The door frames. And he said, I realised nobody had thought about these problems or bothered to fix them for a very long time. In fact, wheelbarrows had barely changed since the Roman times. So he set about redesigning the wheelbarrow and created a lightweight plastic version that pivoted, rather than on a wheel, on a large, big orange plastic ball, and he called it the ballbarrow. So if you imagine instead of the wheel, you've got this kind of big orange ball. And I have to say, I remember my family had one of these. Yeah.

[Brian Cox]

What was it like to use?

[Robin Ince]

It was great because it was easier to manoeuvre, it was much safer, more stable and had all sorts of benefits to it.

[Brian Cox]

So, as you said, he literally reinvented the wheelbarrow. So pretty innovative stuff. But unfortunately, when Dyson tried to get garden centres to stock it, they pretty much laughed in his face, because why would anyone redesign the wheelbarrow? But he, crucially, didn't give up. So he started selling direct to consumers, using ads in newspapers. And then he kept on developing and refining his product, making various versions. He even made one for British Aerospace, which they used to carry missiles. I mean, I think that would be a significantly bigger ball barrel. The big orange ball that we talked about was shock absorbent, so it's like an inflatable tire. But it was also puncture proof, so it was much safer for pushing missiles over rough ground because then the missiles would not go off, which is obviously a crucial element of the design.

[Robin Ince]

Pretty important. The BBC even featured the ball barrow on a famous TV show called Tomorrow's World, all about the science of the future. And it sold really well. And the ball barrow soon got 50% of the UK wheelbarrow market. Got my family's custom, I can tell you that. In spite of this, though, he hardly made any money due to its expensive construction and the tiny profit margins. He'll learn that lesson.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, Dyson was basically trying to compete on price with the basic wheelbarrows that were out there. They were cheaply manufactured. Obviously they didn't have a design cost because the Romans had invented one centuries ago. He simply priced the ballbarrow too low to actually make money from it.

[Robin Ince]

And Dyson had formed this first company of his with a £200,000 loan from his local bank and various shareholders. So despite 600,000 pounds, around a million dollars of annual turnover, those high 1970s interest rates, those borrowing rates hit him hard and his debt continued to grow.

[Brian Cox]

And by the end of the decade, it was all going wrong for James Dyson. There was another company who was copying his idea. Dyson got ousted from his own company by his shareholders, and in the process, he even lost a patent for the ballbarrow because he'd assigned it to the company and not himself. So he says he never found out why he was kicked out, but it did teach him a valuable lesson.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, owning the rights to stuff. We've come across that countless times. In fact, in his autobiography, A Life of Learning Through Failure, he says, I learned the importance of having absolute control of my company and of not undervaluing it.

[Brian Cox]

And this is kind of what you might call the start of his wilderness years. He describes it as all a bit of a disaster. And he spends the next five years with actually no income. So his wife, Deidre, has to make clothes and sell her paintings to get cash. Don't forget, they've also got kids. And Dyson passes his time in the working on their house and waiting for inspiration. His next big idea to strike him.

[Robin Ince]

Patient wife. I know that if I sat around the house tinkering with stuff, waiting for my next big idea to arrive, my wife's patience would have pretty darn.

[Brian Cox]

She'd have words.

[Robin Ince]

She definitely would have words. But this is when the eureka moment arrives.

[Brian Cox]

So Dyson's bought what he's been told is the best vacuum on the market, the Hoover junior. So when it clogs, he's actually extremely annoyed.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah. And being an inventor, he decides to pull the machine apart to see what's wrong. And he finally finds that the bag is full, but he doesn't have a new one. So he tries emptying the bag and reusing it, but that doesn't work. So he has to drive a few miles to the nearest store that sells the Hoover bags. And when he uses one of them, suction returns.

[Brian Cox]

So Dyson figures out that the reason his vacuum was clogged is that the bag also acts as a filter for the machine. So really, when the indicator on his machine was flashing up bag full, it really meant that it was bag clogged. But this could also be triggered by even a tiny bit of dust. So the vacuum regularly lost suction. And he said, as an engineer, I found this interesting. As a consumer, I felt cheated, even angry. This anger lasted for several months.

[Robin Ince]

I mean, noticing a grievance of several months over a vacuum that got clogged is quite something.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. I have to say, this is a very particular kind of mentality, because when things don't work in my house, I just assume I've done something wrong and I'm at fault.

[Robin Ince]

I have to say, I've met him a few times, and I can actually see him nursing this anger for several months. That would bother him for some time. But this combination of anger and interest set him to work trying to fix this problem. He wanted to design a vacuum cleaner that users wouldn't need to keep buying expensive branded bags for. In fact, he soon realized what he wanted to create was a bagless vacuum cleaner. And he had an idea of how to do it.

[Brian Cox]

The problem that faced him reminded him of an issue he'd actually come up against at the ballbarrow factory. So while spray painting, they used a standard fan to keep removing the flying paint particles. But it kept clogging and stopping the production line. And Dyson discovered that cyclone separators were the only thing that could do the job. So a cyclone separator sort of creates a little mini tornado inside a pipe, and that pushes the bits of dirt into the middle of this vortex through the pipe and keeps it all away from the machinery. So everything starts moving smoothly, it stops it clogging.

[Robin Ince]

So if you just picture a tornado.

[Brian Cox]

Yes.

[Robin Ince]

All the stuff that you're sucking up is kind of trapped inside the middle of the cyclone, keeping it free of the moving parts. And the cloggable Bits. Bits. Not an expert in these matters, but I get that.

[Brian Cox]

I think, I think James Dyson would be happy with that explanation.

[Robin Ince]

But these top of the range cyclone separators cost £75,000. That would be equivalent to half a million pounds today. Dyson hadn't been able to afford one for the ballbarrow factory, so he decided to build one himself.

[Brian Cox]

So he actually snuck into a local timber yard late at night with a flashlight and a sketch pad to draw the cyclone separator that was in the yard. And then using this rough sketch, Dyson 2 metal workers built a 30 foot cyclone separator for their factory over a couple of weekends. And it worked a treat.

[Robin Ince]

I'm just loving the idea of him being caught coming out of this timber yard with a sketchbook. So what have you been doing? Nothing. Nothing. I've been sketching a cyclone separator.

[Brian Cox]

I'm just a huge fan.

[Robin Ince]

Yes. Anyway, he's now convinced that he can make a tiny version of this cyclone separator inside a vacuum cleaner. And that could replace the vacuum bag. So he set about creating one out of cardboard. And Gaffer taped it to his machine.

[Brian Cox]

And it kind of worked. So it picked up dust, it picked up hair from his pet dog, it collected it in the cardboard cone, but you know, it's made of cardboard, so it's pretty clunky. So Dyson knew he needed to invest in research and development. So he took this idea to his former Sea Truck boss and friend, Jeremy Fry. And Fry was more than happy to help.

[Robin Ince]

But remember the experience he had with the ballbarrow. It had taught Dyson to keep control of his company. So while he accepted £25,000 from his well heeled friend Jeremy Fry, he insisted that he and his wife would put up 26,000, which is just enough to maintain more than 50%, a controlling stake. To get that money, the Dysons had to sell their vegetable patch and borrow even more money from the bank.

[Brian Cox]

So now he could really get to work refining that design. And he was relentless. So famously, Dyson made over 5,000 prototypes before he found a design that really worked. But prototype 5127 to give it a phone number. Yeah, it worked. And in 1982, he finally patented his duo Cyclone design.

[Robin Ince]

Eureka. There we go. He's made his bagless vacuum cleaner, he's going to start selling it and hey presto, he's a millionaire, right?

[Brian Cox]

Well, no, actually it's a little bit more complicated than that.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah. Initially, Dyson and his business partner Fry decided They should license his invention rather than manufacturing it.

[Brian Cox]

Why would they do that? Especially after all the lessons he's learned about holding on to his designs and ideas.

[Robin Ince]

Well, this is interesting because licensing technology means that you own the design from for it, but you'll let other people manufacture it. The beauty of that model is that you don't have to have tons of capital to do it. You've got intellectual property which you'll license to someone else, but you don't have to build a factory, employ the people to make it, whatever it's called, a capital light model. A lot of people like that. As I say, because you don't have to put tons of money into building the actual factories.

[Brian Cox]

And with every unit you sell, presumably you get a little cut of it. Exactly.

[Robin Ince]

You get a cut of the actual finished product.

[Brian Cox]

So what did Dyson do after, you know, he decided to license these designs?

[Robin Ince]

He spent years trying to get a big electrical company to buy his bagless vacuum cleaner, but no one wanted it. And there was a pretty big reason for that. It was bad for their own business. That was because selling vacuum bags was a massive part of their business model. In fact, the vacuum bag market was worth 500 million pounds in Europe alone during the early 1980s. So if your thing catches on, it could destroy some of our business.

[Brian Cox]

Right. And Dyson said, I had visions of a vacuum revolution, but the vacuum makers had built a razor and blade business model reliant on the profits from bags and filters. So if they bought into his invention, they would basically be writing the check for their own demise.

[Robin Ince]

This reminds me of another business parable, which was that Eastman Kodak had the chance to develop the first digital camera, but they decided not to do it because they realized if this catches on, then our products that we've spent decades being, you know, the market leaders in could get completely destroyed. And so they kind of ignored that market rather than embracing it. Eastman Kodak is basically no longer with us in the form that it was. So, yeah, they didn't want to embrace a technology that might ruin their own business. So most of the next decade was spent trying to license the bagless vacuum, but with minimal success.

[Brian Cox]

So there were some deals here and there, little ones, enough to keep Dyson going. Frey's own company, Roadtalk, where Dyson had worked on the C truck, actually bought a license and then hired Zanussi engineers in Italy to manufacture a pink vacuum cleaner. Those were too expensive, though, and they never really sold. Only about 550 were ever made.

[Robin Ince]

He did make a deal with a Japanese company who loved the pictures they'd seen of the pink model, they made another pink version. They called that the G Force.

[Brian Cox]

Now, that one actually ended up winning a design award. It became a bit of a status symbol back in Japan, but that status.

[Robin Ince]

Symbol came with a hefty price tag. It cost the equivalent of about US$2,000, so it was never a big seller.

[Brian Cox]

There was also very nearly this big deal with an American company called Amway. So the North American market was the big one. So Dyson knew he had to crack it in order to really succeed. Amway paid an initial $100,000, but then the deal fell through because the company accused Dyson of fraud and misrepresentation. They said his machine designs were simply not ready to sell to the public.

[Robin Ince]

And it was at this point and backer Jeremy Fry pulled out. He didn't want a lengthy court case, he just wanted to retire.

[Brian Cox]

So Dyson agreed to buy his old friend out. This time, Dyson had to sell his office building, get yet another loan from the bank to pay. So by the mid-80s, Dyson owned 100% of that business. Having said that, he also didn't own very much else and he couldn't afford to fight Amway in court, so he agreed to give them back the $100,000 they'd given him upfront.

[Robin Ince]

And it's at this point I find myself comparing our are billionaires sometimes to myself, and believe me, I come out pretty unfavorably. He went through 5,000 prototypes. I would have been out by 8.

[Brian Cox]

I would have done maybe 15. And then thought, you know what? This cardboard cone's not going anywhere.

[Robin Ince]

And then every time you have to sort of remortgage this, borrow more money, get into more debt. Your rich back is now pulled out, he's gone to retire.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. Your wife is giving extra art classes around the clock.

[Robin Ince]

And it's not like this is a solid gold proposition here, you know, this is still a moonshot in many ways. And in fact, the 1980s sound a bit desperate for James Dyson. Apparently, at one point, a squirrel chewed through a pipe in his home. The ceilings collapsed, the house flooded. He had to wait for the money to come through from the Japanese deal just to pay for the repairs. And remember, he was turning 40 in 1987. And I don't think we've had a billionaire who still hadn't made a million by the age of 40. So he's still taking big risks at a time when most people are thinking, I've kind of settled into my life. But it was in 1987, the year he turns 40. Things took a bit of a turn.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. So Dyson was about to sign a license agreement with a Canadian company called Iona Appliances. And that's when he discovered that Amway. That's right, the company that accused him of fraud, they'd launched their very own Cyclone vacuum cleaner. Anyway, and this time, Dyson was ready to fight. He was seeing red. He took Amway to court. Iona agreed to help with the legal fees. But remember, this isn't a done deal. He's still risking bankruptcy. He was still in debt. So this legal battle was really high risk. It had the potential to sink him for good. Yeah.

[Robin Ince]

And as these legal tussles can, it took a long time. It took five years. He was cross examined for days by lawyers trying to trip him up. He says just the use of the wrong word at this point could have cost him the case and the validity of his patent. And that's the very valuable thing.

[Brian Cox]

But his wife, good old Deidre, encouraged him to fight it through. And they never did manage to trip him up in Court. In 1992, Amway settled. He received $1 million. Now, most of that went back to legal fees, but at least he'd halted the copy of his product. And meanwhile, the company that licensed his designs in the US had launched their bagless vacuum. So he was finally getting a bit of money from that.

[Robin Ince]

Let's just take another moment to hear it for Deidre, because she encouraged him to fight on at this point. So I pray, hats off to Deidre. Once again, things are finally looking up for James Dyson. But he realized he needed to change his whole business plan, his model, and manufacture the bagless vacuums himself. So in 1991, he launched a company to manufacture them. And he calls it, huge leap of imagination here, Dyson.

[Brian Cox]

Why mess with a good brand name? But yet again, he needs money and he can't get any venture capital funding. So he goes to the bank to take out yet another loan.

[Robin Ince]

And at first, the bank manager is not sure. But then the bank manager consults his wife, who thought the bagless vacuum cleaner was a great idea. So the bank manager was convinced and gave Dyson the loan. I love that credit process they go through at that bank.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. So Dyson still had to put up the family home as collateral, much like Jim Ratcliffe, one of our other billionaires. And you know, this is a major bet in your 40s, especially if you've got kids and a wife.

[Robin Ince]

No kidding. You know, Putting your house on the line when you're 40 is incredible roll of the dice. In fact, it feels a bit like the last roll of the dice. So he's got a team of four working out of his own home. Remember, he sold off his office to raise Money and in 1992, Dyson is now 45. In fact, on his 45th birthday, they released the first fully operational bagless vacuum built by Dyson, and it was called.

[Brian Cox]

The duo cyclone or DC01. Do you remember this vacuum cleaner at all?

[Robin Ince]

I remember the colour scheme. It was kind of grey and yellow. It was quite different looking than anything else. How old would I have been then? I would have been 22. So vacuum cleaners weren't my top priority at that age?

[Brian Cox]

No, in fact, I don't think they're the priority of any 22 year old. The one thing I will say is that when I looked up pictures of this vacuum cleaner, it's got this clear bin so you could see all the dirt that accumulated.

[Robin Ince]

That's kind of fascinating, seeing what's inside the vacuum cleaner. If you hoover up an earring or a key or something like that, you can look right through it and say, there it is.

[Brian Cox]

Apparently Dyson actually insisted on this design quirk because they'd done market research saying that consumers would be put off by seeing all the dirt in their own home. But him and his team apparently enjoyed seeing it so much that they thought customers would too. And I would like that.

[Robin Ince]

See, I like to examine my own filth.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, yeah. Say goodbye to it before you toss it out of your home one more time.

[Robin Ince]

So he starts selling it himself.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, he actually makes personal trips to retailers to convince him to carry his new vacuum.

[Robin Ince]

And he used interesting techniques which actually became quite standard in the vacuum world, like making a bit of a mess on someone's carpet, then cleaning up right in front of them, convincing them that it actually works. Impressed but not convinced, one catalogue executive asked why people would buy his machine rather than famous brands like Hoover and Vax. Dyson replied that the Execs catalog was boring. And after a brief silence, the guy agreed to sell the Dyson. Now, this is the stuff of legend, I think.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting that his answer was that the Execs catalog was just boring. Because I think if you're selling what's essentially a technological product, a lot of the appeal comes from the fact that it's cool, you know, like, I think of those old imac computers, the kind of brightly colored ones, and you Know, they were considered kind of cool and sexy and futuristic.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, but computers are cool and sexy and futuristic. Vacuum cleaners, not so much.

[Brian Cox]

Hey, if you need to vacuum all day, you'd want to look at the vacuum version of an iMac 2.

[Robin Ince]

So in 1993, the Dyson dual Cyclone vacuum cleaner goes on sale to the public. It was nearly £200, £199. That was about twice what a cheap vacuum cleaner would cost. But this was a top of the range vacuum cleaner. And don't forget that Dyson had learned his lesson about underpricing his product with the ball barrier. I do remember people saying, having a Dyson a bit of a status still. Oh, gosh, you know, Dyson, you know.

[Brian Cox]

Moving up in the wild.

[Robin Ince]

Exactly. Eventually, all this persistence by Dyson pays off. Eighteen months after it launched, all the mainstream chains were stocking it. They cornered 20% of the vacuum cleaner market and a turnover of 10 million pounds. So he's got to be a millionaire by now.

[Brian Cox]

Well, millions were generated in sales of the bagless vacuum cleaner. But it wasn't until 1995, after he'd paid back the bank loan, the manufacturing cost costs and finally paid off that original overdraft he took out as a newlywed, that James Dyson was officially a millionaire.

[Robin Ince]

He's 48 years old, he's nowhere near a billion, but he is financially stable.

[Brian Cox]

So he's got a long way to go to get to that billion. But I think he now believes he's going to make it.

[Robin Ince]

In 1995. 48. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off Jupiter versus Scepter. It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's gonna kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series, we're discussing history of music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shoes shapes. So listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Eight year old James Dyson is a millionaire. And a ruthless focus on expansion is set to take him all the way to a billion. He starts by building his own factory near his home in the English countryside and he works on improving the designs. He reduces the weight, he increases the.

[Brian Cox]

Power and Dyson starts releasing new models of vacuum cleaners with new designs to serve kind of different customers. Soon there was a small cylindrical Dyson for the 50% of the UK market who preferred smaller vacuums. And to appeal to the European market, where people mostly use cylinder vacuums, think products like Henry Hoover's. That's as opposed to upright vacuums, which is what the Dyson duracyclone had been modeled on.

[Robin Ince]

And these expansion plans are starting to work. They triple their production output year on year from 1993 onwards. And Dyson opens offices across Europe in France, Germany, Spain, the Benelux countries, Italy. And while he was also launching in Japan and Australia, he really had eyes on the big prize, the US market.

[Brian Cox]

So the US was the biggest market for vacuum cleaners. Americans were buying nearly 18 million vacuums a year. But Dyson had been in court fighting yet another legal battle against the US giant Hoover. In 1999, they'd launched their very own bagless vacuum called the Triple Vortex. And Dyson accused Hoover of infringing his patent. And again he won his case. The court ordered Hoover to stop selling the Triple Vortex.

[Robin Ince]

Hoover appealed, but lost. And in 2002, they had to pay a total of $6 million in compensation and costs, which was one of the highest settlements for a patent case at that time. So Dyson have gone from newcomer to taking on the biggest names in vacuum cleaning, the biggest, in fact, in Hoover and winning.

[Brian Cox]

Now, at the same time, the company that Dyson had been licensing his designs to in America went bankrupt. So all this meant that the way was clear for Dyson to launch Dyson the brand stateside. After a successful trial run, the US chained Best Buy. You'll see their Best buys all across Americ. They agreed to stock his product right across the country. But there was one condition, that Dyson ran a national advertising campaign.

[Robin Ince]

And this may be the moment that makes James Dyson so famous. And perhaps the reason we're talking about him today, because the creative company Dyson employed to make the ad suggested that Dyson himself should be in the ad. Now, he was a great salesman, as we've seen. He knew the product better than anyone. So he agreed.

[Brian Cox]

I mean, do you think this is just ego or, you know, do you think he really was such a brilliant salesman that an advertising team said, you should be the face?

[Robin Ince]

I think there's something about Dyson. He's posh.

[Brian Cox]

Yes, he's. He sounds very posh.

[Robin Ince]

You know, he's a crazy inventor. I can see that. You know, there's probably a bit of ego at work there, but there's probably some smarts as well.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, some advertising savvy. Americans do go crazy for a British accent.

[Robin Ince]

I Mean, Branson, for example, was very successful in doing that. So maybe he thought, you know, British guy out there, entrepreneur, selling direct to Americans, like the way Branson did with Virgin and what have you. He knew it could definitely work.

[Brian Cox]

I mean, those first Dyson adverts, which you can still watch online, they are just really surprisingly simple. It's literally him in his own home explaining the product. You know, in one of these adverts, he tells the story of the clogged machine from the 70s, plays up all the prototypes he made, and it ends with the tagline, I just think things should work properly. I mean, who could disagree with that?

[Robin Ince]

Can't disagree with that.

[Brian Cox]

So he spends 20 doll, 20 million on TV advertising in the US. Now, that might seem a lot, but this is lower than average for a nationwide product launch. And, you know, it's not a commercial with whiz bang explosions, just him talking things through. So it was pretty cheap as well.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, but they were a great success and in fact, soon they're being parodied on late night comedy shows like Saturday Night Live. So they really work. They made Dyson and his products big in the USA. US immigration officers started recognizing him. Oh, you're the 5000 prototypes guy. When he arrived in the country. And most importantly, they really started to sell. Dyson vacuum cleaners became so ubiquitous, they featured on sitcoms like Friends, Will and Grace, Ellen and a Dyson was even included in the celebrity goodie bag at the 2005 Oscar ceremony.

[Brian Cox]

Talk about, talk about the irony of a bagless vacuum cleaner in the bag. Goodie bag.

[Robin Ince]

I like it. Full circle.

[Brian Cox]

So not only is Dyson getting famous, he's actually getting really, really rich. So in 2005, two years after launching in the States, Dyson was the number one selling vacuum in the us, beating Hoover. In fact, one in five of all floor cleaners bought in the US were made by Dyson. You know, given the fact that people use the word Hoovering as a verb, the fact that it became bigger than Hoover is massive.

[Robin Ince]

It's like becoming bigger than Google when it comes to Googling.

[Brian Cox]

Exactly.

[Robin Ince]

Dyson joked that he was the first Brit to conquer America since the Beatles. And sure enough, he's on his way. Pretty soon, Dyson is a billionaire. Forbes, the financial magazine, put him on their billionaire list in 2006.

[Brian Cox]

Now they estimated his fortune to be $1 billion. Although Dyson is still a private company, so that really is an estimate. But don't forget, at this point, Dyson owns the whole company. So, yeah, James Dyson is definitely a billionaire.

[Robin Ince]

But while Dyson was getting rich and famous in the US, he wasn't quite as popular back in the UK. In 2002, Dyson announced they were moving the manufacturing from England to Malaysia. The site near his home remained as a sort of research and development hub, a kind of brains trust. But it meant the loss of 800 British jobs and the Trade and Industry Minister of the UK at the time was annoyed. A union leader said Dyson had betrayed British manufacturing and British consumers. Dyson said the move was purely practical. He needed more factory space and more staff for the big US demand, and that just wasn't possible in the uk.

[Brian Cox]

But cheaper labour costs abroad also meant significantly reduced production costs. And that move really boosted profits in those days when he was becoming a billionaire. And for his part, Dyson said of the move, I invested £40 million into a vacuum cleaner factory and I would love to still be there now, but it simply wasn't possible. If anybody else thinks it is, then they are welcome to have a go, but I wasted a lot of money on the factory trying to do it. Nice words. But when Dyson personally took a 17 million pounds dividend, many more union leaders were angered.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, Dyson's reputation took a bit of a hit during this period. I remember in 2003, he became a government appointed innovation czar, advising on Britain become more competitive. And that was seen as a bit hypocritical. Says, oh, you're teaching Britain how to be more competitive whilst at the same time you're moving your manufacturing to the Far East. Later on, he supported Britain leaving the EU after he previously lobbied for the UK to join the euro in the 1990s. And this was seen as a conflicting position. So there was a kind of tension between Dyson trying to talk up Britain, but at the same time moving most of his manufacturing base out of Britain.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. In fact, after Brexit happened, he moved his headquarters to Singapore, which led some newspapers to call him a hypocrite, even a traitor. He was called disgrace. And actually Dyson sued the Mirror Group newspapers over these accusations, saying it was not only wrong, but incredibly harmful to his reputation.

[Robin Ince]

But Dyson lost a libel case and the High court ruled in 2023 that Mirror Group newspapers had successfully argued its defense of honest opinion.

[Brian Cox]

Now, whatever people's feelings about Dyson, the man were, once he actually hit that billion, he continued to be an incredibly successful businessman and made Dyson the company even more successful.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, he's not going to stop at vacuum cleaners. He diversified his ran range of products. We probably all know about the. If you've been to a bathroom lately, you know about the air blade. You put the little hands in and out. That came out in 2006. That's everywhere, right?

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. I really struggled to think of the last time I even saw a regular hand dryer in a toilet.

[Robin Ince]

But it was interesting because he really did give a kick at the backside to the toilet hand drying market. Because in the old days you used to press that button, you get this little wheezing sound. You'd be there for ages trying to dry your hands.

[Brian Cox]

Like a machine trying to. Off.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah, exactly.

[Brian Cox]

This is going to sound so silly, but I remember the first time I used one of these Dyson air blades and I put my hands and I thought, wow, this is the future. Which just goes to show, even the most mundane technological product can always be made better.

[Robin Ince]

Well, it claimed to reduce hand drying time from 40 seconds to 10 seconds. It made Dyson a major player in the international hand dryer industry. And they got other products. A bladeless air fan, a supersonic hair dryer. And one of Dyson's most profitable products are actually air purifier.

[Brian Cox]

With all these products and lines, he uses the same Dyson approach that he did with the vacuum. So he looks at how these pre existing products are made and then he picks it apart so that research and development, that R and D really pays off. So Dyson comes up with designs that look not a lot like what the competition put out.

[Robin Ince]

Not everything was a success though. They tried making a washing machine that was too costly. And I reported on this at the time, he invested up $3 billion in trying to build an electric car that was quite quietly abandoned. He had big plans. I actually went down to the plant with with him to see where he was going to make this car.

[Brian Cox]

I mean, he does say that a lot of the technology developed for that failed electric car has actually helped his other projects.

[Robin Ince]

He also, and this is one of the things he's been in the news for recently here in the uk he got into farming. Not the first of our billionaires to do that. He's also got Dyson University in the uk, which has the power to award degrees. It's an engineering school which actually pays students as employees. And 2025 this year we'll see the second wave of graduates with a Dyson Institute degree degree.

[Brian Cox]

And actually in 2024 it was revealed Dyson's invested about half a billion on household robots and artificial intelligence. So he's still Looking towards the future.

[Robin Ince]

And design and innovation still at the heart of what they do today.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, so Dyson owns 10,000 patents and patents pending and it spends $11 million a week on research and development.

[Robin Ince]

He definitely doesn't seem to have lost that obsessive drive and determination that made him a billion billionaire. What is he now in his 70s?

[Brian Cox]

I'm guessing late 70s? He's still active in his company. Not only is he still chairman, but he's also the very public face of Dyson. He's out there on the chat show circuit, you'll see him yapping away and let's face it, if I was in my late 70s, I'd be hanging my boots up to dry.

[Robin Ince]

Okay, well listen, that's James Dyson's story to becoming extremely rich. One of the British men in the uk. I think it's time to judge him. This is where we judge people on a number of categories and then we figure out whether they're good, bad or just another billionaire. So let's start with wealth.

[Brian Cox]

So currently about $13 billion. But Dyson has set 2025 as the completion date for a five year plan to double his product portfolio. So you can expect even more Dyson launches which could potentially raise his wealth even higher assuming they don't end up on the scrap heap like that electric car.

[Robin Ince]

And he's come a long way, way since, you know, he made his first million when he was 48. As we said, a late bloomer in this sense. So he's come a long way very quickly. I mean he's definitely one of the richest British people. In fact, I think he was the richest person in Britain a few years ago. He's fallen down the list a little bit. So I'm going to give him, in UK terms he's at the top of the tree. In global terms, he's miles off the musks and the Bezos's of this world. So I'm going to give him a solid, solid five.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, I think a solid five out of ten. You know, while we like to think that Britain is the center of the world, unfortunately if you're a rich, very rich person in Britain, it doesn't mean you're in the big leagues at all.

[Robin Ince]

Fair enough. Okay, let's judge him on villainy. What have they done to get to the top? Who suffered along the way, if anyone.

[Brian Cox]

So he's actually laid off quite a few people recently. In 2024, a thousand job losses were announced at Dyson in the uk.

[Robin Ince]

I think that one of the things counts against him in many people's minds is that he was, you know, pro Britain. Britain should go its own way and Brexit. But this is a man who moved his manufacturing base to the Far east with, you know, lower costs. And he also said, you know, better quality of engineers coming out of Asian universities. And I think a lot of people found that a bit hypocritical. So there's that. He's not been universally loved by many of the people who actually work for him.

[Brian Cox]

And I think definitely, if you want to take a public political stance as a business person person, and then you quite publicly seem to do something that goes directly against your stance. Yeah, I think, you know, you should receive some criticism for that.

[Robin Ince]

He's become quite vocal in this debate about taxing farmland. A recent change that when farmers, you know, if they die, farmland used to be exempt from inheritance tax. That is no longer going to be the case. He came out very strongly against it. And people say, well, you would say that he's got quite a lot to lose as one of the biggest landowners owners in the uk. Some accusations that he only bought all this farmland in order to avoid inheritance tax. Others would say, well, actually, given the stuff they've done in terms of trying to pioneer new methods of farming, that, you know, just. That is certainly isn't the full story. So a bit of debate there.

[Brian Cox]

But, you know, we've had billionaires before who've tried to flex their political influence and muscle in quite public ways. Maybe part of the criticism against him is because people don't like to see billionaires flexing that muscle quite so publicly.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah. Especially when they're pleading a case, which, you know, is going to affect them personally. But at the end of the day, these are, you know, political spats. Arguments where reasonable minds can differ on some of this kind of stuff. He's not a drug dealer.

[Brian Cox]

No. He's certainly not an arms dealer like some of the billionaires we've covered on our podcast.

[Robin Ince]

So if to the extent it's villainy, it's pretty low level villainy, if it is there at all. So I'm gonna give him a three for villainy.

[Brian Cox]

I'm gonna give him a four out of ten.

[Robin Ince]

Okay. All right. We go on to philanthropy. He's given away quite a lot of money. Let's just recap where it's gone.

[Brian Cox]

So £50 million to his former boarding school Greshams, £100 million through his foundation.

[Robin Ince]

To educational and medical research, mostly to cancer and meningitis. He contracted Meningitis himself when he was 45. That's old to get meningitis.

[Brian Cox]

I know. While he was still trying to build Dyson the brand. Wow.

[Robin Ince]

Wow. And Dyson has funded engineering education programs since 2002. And since 2009, there's been an increase of engineering graduates in the UK. There's no doubt he is held up as a kind of modern day, I don't know, James Stevenson or Isambard Kingdom Brunel. He became the most famous engineer in Britain.

[Brian Cox]

And engineering, you know, not usually the sexiest of subjects. He's probably done quite a lot for that kind of degree and discipline.

[Robin Ince]

I mean, he's given a lot of money away. He has got a lot. So I'm going to give him a six for philanthropy.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, I think I would give him a six for philanthropy too. It's very targeted towards his interests and also his local area.

[Robin Ince]

Exactly. Okay, six each on that one. But some of those comments take us neatly into power and legacy. I mean, he's changed marketplaces pretty drastically. When he launches a product, the market usually remains permanently changed by his designs. Nearly all electrical companies now sell a bagless vacuum cleaner, including his old enemy, Hoover. The Airblade has seen most hand dryer manufacturers increase their airspeed. They're pretty ubiquitous.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah. So where Dyson goes, others follow. Interestingly, by 2008, more men were actually seen to be vacuuming. So an estimated 50% of male partners do the household task. Asked why more men were now vacuuming, Dyson at the time said, probably because I've turned what's seen as a humble domestic appliance into an exciting machine.

[Robin Ince]

I think there's all sorts of problematic things with that sentence.

[Brian Cox]

I know. Yeah.

[Robin Ince]

And also in terms of legacy, I think he made engineering sexy again. He made being a designer something that people wanted to get into. I think that was quite inspirational to quite a whole generation of, you know, kids and young designers.

[Brian Cox]

In terms of power, he's still trying to wield that political power. He's getting involved in political debates in the uk. He writes editorial leaders for newspapers, laying out his opinions on things. He's got some political muscle, I think.

[Robin Ince]

Yeah. On power and legacy, I think Dyson will go down as one of the most important engineers in British history.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah.

[Robin Ince]

So I'm going to give him a. An 8 in the UK and a 6 worldwide.

[Brian Cox]

Okay. So the average of that is what, 7? Yeah, I would give him a 7 out of 10.

[Robin Ince]

Okay. And then we have to decide, is he good, bad or just another billionaire?

[Brian Cox]

Well, Now, I have to confess that I have never used a bagless vacuum cleaner, so I cannot comment on whether it's better or worse. So I feel like my decision will be. Would have been influenced if I did have a bagless vacuum cleaner and thought it was terrific.

[Robin Ince]

I've never used a Dyson vacuum cleaner myself, although he did let me have a go of one of his whilst he actually did a demonstration of hoovering stuff off in one of his showrooms. But I think we can all say for those people coming out of the loo with wet hands that he has made a sizable difference to the hand drying routine. And the earlier comments about what he's done for British engineering and aspiration and design and whatever. I'm going to say he is marginally, there are some problems, but I'm gonna say, James Dyson, you are a good billionaire. Oh, you seem torn.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah, I'm kind of torn because to me this is a story of just another billionaire. But then I will admit that, you know, the things that he has invented, even though I myself have not personally experienced this, not even the hair dryer.

[Robin Ince]

Or the fans or the purifier.

[Brian Cox]

I've used the hand dryer and the bladeless fan. Yeah, I mean, it is good, isn't it? They are good products. And not to make this sound like Sponcon, but you, you know, nobody's coming.

[Robin Ince]

Sponge. Is that sponsored content?

[Brian Cox]

Sponsored content? Yes.

[Robin Ince]

Never heard that abbreviation before.

[Brian Cox]

You learn something new every episode with you.

[Robin Ince]

I always do.

[Brian Cox]

I would say, yeah, maybe he does marginally edge into the good billionaire category. We've not had very many inventors, and I do think inventing things should be applauded.

[Robin Ince]

Inventing is cool. We need inventors. And this guy's basically reinvented the wheel.

[Brian Cox]

Sort of the wheelbarrow. So, Sir James Dyson, you are a officially a good billionaire.

[Robin Ince]

Zing. And I have more intriguing billionaires lined up for the new season. Join us each week for a closer look at the lives of some of the world's richest people.

[Brian Cox]

From Minecraft creator Marcus Person to basketball star LeBron James, we've got comic book moguls, film directors, computer programmers, sports stars, and lots of other very, very rich people lined up too. So don't forget to subscribe to Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your podcasts, Good Bad Billionaire is a BBC World Service podcast. It's produced by Mark Ward with additional production by Tamsen Curry and Sarah Joyner. Paul Smith is the editor and it's a BBC Studios audio production for the BBC World service.

[Robin Ince]

The senior podcast producer is Kat Collins and the commissioning editor is John Manelle. Hello, I'm Robin Inks. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a plan it off Jupiter versus Scepter. Well, it's very well done that, because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's gonna kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series, we're discussing history, music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature shapes. So listen, wherever you get your podcasts.