Tao Huabi: Crispy chilli godmother

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Good Bad Billionaire (BBC World Service)

Episode: Tao Huabi — Crispy Chilli Godmother

Hosts: Simon Jack & Zing Tsjeng
Release Date: July 27, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the inspirational rags-to-riches story of Tao Huabi, the creator of Laogan Ma crispy chili oil—a staple found in millions of kitchens worldwide. Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng retrace Tao’s journey from rural poverty in Guizhou, China, to becoming a billionaire who transformed a simple condiment into an international phenomenon. Throughout the conversation, the hosts explore Tao’s character, business ethos, cultural impact, and her eventual legacy, taking time to rate her “good/bad/billionaire” status according to the show’s signature categories.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life and Adversity (01:18–08:03)

• Humble Beginnings:
  Tao was born in 1947 in Matan County, Guizhou—one of China’s poorest regions. She grew up during widespread famine and had no formal education, remaining illiterate for much of her life.
• Great Famine:
  The Chinese Great Famine (1959–1962) devastated her community. Tao’s perseverance through hunger (07:02) is described:

  “She dreamed of putting mud in her mouth just to feel full.” — Zing Tsjeng (07:13)

• Learning by Necessity:
  From a young age, Tao began experimenting with food, using local chili peppers in inventive ways to supplement meager rations.

2. Building a Future — Family and Early Business (08:03–10:45)

• Marriage and Loss:
  Tao married, bore two sons, then lost her husband to illness, leaving her widowed and in significant debt.
• Taking on Gritty Work:
  Tao worked multiple menial jobs, including vegetable selling and even rock-carrying.

  “Carrying rocks as your second job—I mean, it doesn't get much tougher than that, does it?” — Simon Jack (10:27)

3. Discovering the Secret Sauce (10:45–13:19)

• Rise of the Noodle Stall:
  As markets liberalized (post-1978), Tao began selling a starchy noodle dish (liangfen) topped with her homemade chili sauce, which quickly became the real attraction.
• Pivot to Chilli Oil:
  Customers returned for the sauce, not the noodles. By 1994, Tao shifted focus entirely to producing and selling her chili condiment in jars.

4. Scaling Up — Factory to Phenomenon (13:19–20:43)

• From Home Industry to Factory:
  Supported by local officials, she rented property and opened a small factory, fiercely negotiating with suppliers:

  “Which child is born big? They all grow up slowly. If you don’t give me the bottle today, I won’t leave.” — Tao Huabi, as recounted by Simon Jack (13:59)

• Hands-on Leadership:
  Tao’s reputation for personally checking the quality and working alongside staff earned her both respect and the nickname “Old Godmother” (Laogan Ma).
• Family Enterprise:
  Despite being unable to read, Tao managed the expanding business with help from her son, emphasizing honesty, hard work, and frugality.

5. National and International Domination (15:19–21:30)

• Business Milestones:
  By 1997, Laogan Ma was officially established, achieving massive domestic success despite regional crises and a competitive market.
• Combatting Copycats:
  Facing trademark issues and widespread counterfeiting, Tao aggressively protected her brand—even winning lawsuits and demanding public apologies (18:44–19:35).
• Global Expansion:
  By the early 2000s, Laogan Ma was sold worldwide, becoming a comfort food for Chinese diaspora students and a viral sensation among international audiences.

  “I’m Chinese. I don’t make money off Chinese people. I want to sell Laogan Ma to foreign countries and make money off foreigners.” — Tao Huabi (as quoted by Simon Jack, 19:35)

6. Unconventional Founder and Company Culture (20:43–23:37)

• Illiteracy and Management:
  Tao continued to run a multimillion (later billion-dollar) enterprise while illiterate, memorizing financial statements and keeping business close to the family.
• Employee Loyalty:
  Known for treating her staff well, Tao provided some of the best wages in the area and maintained personal connections—allegedly knowing half her 2,000 employees by name.

  “I believe that if I treat them with my heart, they will also repay me with their love.” — Tao Huabi (as quoted by Zing Tsjeng, 21:30)

• Frugality vs. Flash:
  Lived humbly on the factory grounds but didn’t shy from some displays of wealth, e.g., a limited edition Rolls Royce with a lucky license plate (GM A8888).

7. Political Influence and Market Impact (23:37–26:04)

• Political Role:
  Tao served as a deputy to the National People’s Congress, focusing especially on food safety and anti-counterfeiting (23:37).
• Brand without Marketing:
  Unusually, Laogan Ma thrived with almost no formal advertising, its spread propelled by word of mouth and a viral presence in popular culture and fashion.

8. Modern Challenges and Legacy (27:31–30:41)

• Stepping Back and Returning:
  Tao transferred her business to her sons in 2017, relinquishing billionaire status—but reportedly returned when revenues dropped (28:14).
• Going Viral:
  Laogan Ma’s brand soared with Western celebrities and viral fashion, embraced by stars like John Cena and Sam Smith, and became a social-media icon (28:34–29:05).
• Production Scale:
  As of 2024, producing 3 million bottles daily with global markets forecast to keep expanding.

9. Hosts’ “Scorecard” — Wealth, Controversy, Power, Legacy (30:41–35:13)

• Wealth:
  Both hosts rate Tao highly given her dramatic rise from poverty.

  “She’s technically no longer a billionaire... but I’m going to score her six.” — Simon Jack (31:42);
  “I think I’m gonna give her a seven out of ten.” — Zing Tsjeng (31:55)

• Controversy:
  Little evidence of wrongdoing or scandal.

  “Pretty uncontroversial stuff, I would say.” — Simon Jack (32:32) “I feel like we should just give her a one, just in case there’s a body in a vat of chilli oil somewhere.” — Zing Tsjeng (32:32)

• Power:
  Regionally transformative, some national influence, but not among China’s most powerful.

  “She is responsible for one of the most iconic and recognizable Chinese products in the world.” — Zing Tsjeng (33:48)

• Legacy:
  Cemented as a cultural icon; her face is globally synonymous with Chinese cuisine.

  “I think if there was no Lao Gan Ma chilli sauce, I don’t think we’d have half the chilli sauces we have in supermarkets today.” — Zing Tsjeng (34:52)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On perseverance:
  “Telling her sons, ‘Use whatever you have, whether much or little, always use your own money.’” — Zing Tsjeng (10:05)
• On authenticity:
  “I didn’t think that person really existed... So it’s news to me that this person actually exists.” — Simon Jack (02:53)
• On brand odds:
  “Which child is born big? They all grow up slowly.” — Tao Huabi, as related by Simon Jack (13:59)
• On employee relationships:
  “If I treat them with my heart, they will also repay me with their love.” — Tao Huabi (21:30)
• On overseas ambition:
  “I don’t make money off Chinese people. I want to sell Laogan Ma to foreign countries and make money off foreigners.” — Tao Huabi (19:35)
• On viral fame:
  “A hoodie that looked exactly like the jars... including Tao’s face.” — Zing Tsjeng (28:34)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:18–04:47: Dramatic taste-test, product introduction, and Laogan Ma’s global reach
• 05:20–08:03: Background: Guizhou’s poverty and Tao’s experience during the great famine
• 10:05–12:26: Debt, struggles, and life lessons after her husband’s death
• 13:19–15:19: Launching factory production, memorable supplier standoff
• 15:19–18:44: Massive expansion, early financial success, and context of Chinese economy reforms
• 18:44–20:43: Protecting the brand via lawsuits and counterfeits
• 20:43–23:00: Overcoming illiteracy in business, employee-first philosophy
• 23:37–24:48: Political rise, outsized regional impact
• 28:34–29:29: Viral marketing and Western pop culture embrace
• 30:41–35:13: Wealth, controversy, power, legacy scores

---

Tone & Style

The hosts maintain an enthusiastic, conversational, and often playful style—punctuated by dry wit and empathy for their subject. They blend historical context, business analysis, and cultural commentary, making Tao’s story accessible and engaging even to listeners new to her brand.

---

Conclusion

Tao Huabi’s trajectory is a true rags-to-riches saga: from famine-stricken illiterate peasant laborer to global business icon whose face is known by millions. Her story blends elements of grit, business ingenuity, cultural nostalgia, and modern virality, all anchored by a steadfast personal ethos of honesty, hard work, and family. The hosts rank her highly in wealth and legacy, low in controversy, and see her overall as an overwhelmingly positive force—embodying the possibility of transformation against enormous odds.

---

End of summary

Transcript

[Simon Jack]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk

[Advertisement Voice]

Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free [e-mail], that's odoo.com this

is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season fresh, organic and bursting with flavor. Start your day with peaches and organic blueberries and yogurt. The Build a grazing board with fresh fruit, prosciutto and artisanal cheese. Then fire up the grill with no antibiotics ever. Proteins and fresh produce. Savor the season. Shop Summer Fruit Fest at Whole Foods Market.

[Zing Seng]

It's the late 1990s. We're in Guizhou, a landlocked province in southwest China bordered by Sichuan.

[Simon Jack]

A small woman in her 50s stands in the middle of a factory floor. In front a long line of jars filled with something bright red.

[Zing Seng]

She wears a stern expression. She walks down the line, dipping a calloused finger into each jar, then touches the red concoction to her tongue, a tongue that is blistered and swollen.

[Simon Jack]

Hundreds of workers watch on, holding their collective breath. She nods, cracking a small smile. The chilies are good.

[Zing Seng]

Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Each episode we take a billionaire and we find out how they made their money.

[Simon Jack]

We take them from zero to their first million, then from a million onto a billion.

[Zing Seng]

My name is Zing Seng. I'm a journalist, author and podcaster.

[Simon Jack]

And I'm Simon Jack. I'm the BBC's business editor.

[Zing Seng]

And now you probably haven't heard of our billionaire, but I'd bet there's a fair few of you with her face in your refrigerator right now.

[Simon Jack]

Now, I didn't think I knew about this billionaire. And then I realized a jar that we've been talking about has been sitting in the fridge for the last couple of years. My kids put this stuff on everything.

[Zing Seng]

That's right. We're talking about Laogan Ma, the infamously hot crispy chili oil that has really taken off around the world.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Founded by a 79 year old Chinese

[Zing Seng]

entrepreneur called Tao Huabi, Lao Ganma Actually means old godmother. And every jar features Tao's stern, unsmiling face. And that means she's become a cultural phenomenon beyond the product.

[Simon Jack]

I didn't think that that person really existed. I thought it was one of those little kind of, you know, I know, Uncle Ben's rice or blah, blah, blah or whatever. And there's a sort of fictitious character on there. So it news to me that this person actually exists.

[Zing Seng]

Right. I similarly always thought she was made up. I feel like a woman with that kind of a face, with this kind of a story would want herself to be on the front of every jar she makes.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah.

[Zing Seng]

Well, we've got a jar right in front of us, and we are going to do a taste test for people who haven't tried it before so we can describe to you what it tastes like.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, here we go. Okay, let me just got a little spoon here. I'm not sure this is advised. Having it neat like this.

[Advertisement Voice]

Hang on.

[Zing Seng]

Like vodka straight from the bottle. Simon's going in for another taste.

[Simon Jack]

Going in for another one. Yeah. Oily, crunchy, sweet, hot, delicious. Go on.

[Assistant/Producer Voice]

Here you go.

[Simon Jack]

Some for you.

[Zing Seng]

I've also not had any breakfast before recording this, so this is going to go down a treat in my stomach.

[Simon Jack]

This goes on just about everything in our household now with the kids. They put it on their eggs. They put it on. They put on roast chicken, anything really. It's got a slightly burnt taste to it as well, hasn't it?

[Zing Seng]

There's a sort of charred.

[Simon Jack]

Charred taste. Yeah.

[Zing Seng]

And it is crispy.

[Simon Jack]

What's in it?

[Zing Seng]

So I think it says, and I'm not the world's greatest expert at reading written Chinese, but yep, chili oil, I think some beans, if I'm not mistaken. But you can also sort of see spices in there. I think there's some peppercorns. Peppercorn.

[Simon Jack]

There's definitely some salt and sugar in there.

[Zing Seng]

Also, I think there's some msg.

[Assistant/Producer Voice]

Yeah.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, well, what's not to like? Basically, fat salts, MSG and spy and heat.

[Zing Seng]

Well, you might be surprised to learn that it was this very simple condiment that made Tao Hua be a billionaire in 2015.

[Simon Jack]

I told my kids that and they just could not believe it. They said, you're having me on. The source is beloved. Around the world, a staggering 3 million bottles are produced every day.

[Zing Seng]

And in fact, Laogan Ma has become a kind of viral sensation. Her bottles are all over TikTok, they're all over Instagram. Maybe that's where your kids found it.

[Simon Jack]

From maybe because she's been nicknamed the hottest woman in online. Batao grew up in rural poverty during China's great famine.

[Zing Seng]

It is one hell of a journey. So let's travel back almost eight decades to find out how she did it.

[Simon Jack]

Really is extraordinary, this story. Tao Huabei was born in 1947, that is, two years before Mao Zedong established the People's Republic of China. She grew up in Matan county in mountainous Guizhou, one of China's poorest provinces. And as the local idiom goes, there are not three feet of flat land, not three days without rain, and not a family with three silver coins.

[Zing Seng]

Not exactly the tourism slogan that made her.

[Simon Jack]

The tourist board did not have a hand in that.

[Zing Seng]

Exactly. Well, traditionally people lived in wooden houses on the mountains and they did their best to eke out a daily income from just a few fields. Her parents sold fabrics at the bazaars to try and eke out a living. But she grew up in poverty and we're not exactly sure how many siblings she had. It's worth noting that because of when and where she grew up, we have fewer sources for this story than normal. And those that we do have have been translated from Chinese. But we think it's still an incredible story and well worth telling. But we do know that like many rural Chinese in the 1950s, she didn't have access to a proper education and she actually didn't even learn to read or write.

[Simon Jack]

I wonder if we've had any other billionaires who didn't learn to read or write. It's a good question. We'll go back and have a look. But in 1959, when Tao was 12, the great famine hit, lasting three years and actually was deadliest famine in history. Also one of the greatest man made disasters in human history, caused largely by the impact of what was known as the Great Leap Forward. This is the radical social and economic campaign launched under Mao Zedong. And there are few open public records about this period. Estimates vary greatly, but it's thought somewhere between 15 to 45 million people died

[Zing Seng]

where Tao lived in Guizhou. It's estimated that more than 20% of the county's total population starved to death in a matter of months. That's one out of five of everyone you know dying.

[Simon Jack]

Incredible.

[Zing Seng]

In a biography of Tao Chilis and Chances by Wu Hua, which we've used as one of our sources for this episode, it describes the horror of hunger that Tao felt and how she dreamed of putting mud in her mouth just to feel full. And as their food ran out, the people survived off wild herbs that used to be fed to pigs.

[Simon Jack]

But Tao survived the famine and perhaps because they'd spent so long eating so little, she began experimenting with different cooking methods to try and improve the taste of meals for her family. Guajou is considered the Chin chili capital of China. Chili peppers grow abundantly there in their mountain regions and has long been a big part of the cuisine there. In fact, the indigenous people had used them to flavor their dishes instead of salt when it wasn't widely available. So Tao used the local chili peppers to make a sauce that soon became popular in the community. It was spicier and crunchier than others.

[Zing Seng]

Well, as a teenager in the 1960s, Tao worked on the land and then in construction. And she eventually left home and moved to Guiyang City, the capital of Guizhou Province, where she got a job at a nursing home. And this work was hard, mentally, physically. When she was 20, she married an accountant and they had two sons. And after the first boy, Tao quit her job at the nursing home.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, we're going to skip over a lot of the 1970s because there really isn't much information about her life there. And we assume she was busy raising children. In 1978, Deng Xiaoping initiated the reform and opening up policy. And China then shifted away from a strictly state planned economy, centralized economy towards a more market orientated model. And for the first time since the People's Republic, Republic of China had been established, households were allowed to sell surplus produce in local markets after meeting state procurement quotas. So there was a sudden boom in small scale market traders, especially in urban, in urban areas.

[Zing Seng]

And you can almost see this as the first step that China took on the way to becoming the economy it is today.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, that was the moment that the giant of China awoke, as people say from its slumber back in the late 80s to the economic superpower it is today.

[Zing Seng]

Well, Taoist got in on this. She became a vegetable seller. She was buying in bulk from rural farmers selling for a profit in the market back in the city. But the farmers near the city also raised their prices because they knew how much their vegetables were going for. So she sought out farmers further a feud which involved leaving home at 3am, walking for about 25km in the dark, then returning with the vegetables before breakfast.

[Simon Jack]

What a way to make a living. Blimey. Well, one day, Tao's husband fell sick. He was diagnosed with emphysema, a progressive incurable lung disease. All her savings on his medical bills. And when that money ran out, she took out a Loan and worked longer hours. In 1984, her husband died, and Tao was left with two children and debt. She continued working on the vegetable stall, but she could only save a few yuan each day, and this was about how much basic food cost her a day. So she's not getting anywhere.

[Zing Seng]

And remember, the interest on her debt is growing. It got to several thousand yen, which was equivalent to years of income for a typical worker. So she took on a second job, carrying rocks to support her family. She eventually paid that loan off and vowed never to take another loan again, Telling her sons, use whatever you have, whether much or little, always use your own money.

[Simon Jack]

Carrying rocks as your second job, I mean, it doesn't get much tougher than that, does it? I know.

[Zing Seng]

What are you going to do for your third job?

[Simon Jack]

Well, as the economy opened up, more and more people were trading vegetables in the market. Competitors were there. They were willing to undercut her, so her profits were dwindling. Instead, she started selling noodles and rice, tofu.

[Zing Seng]

So she was selling a type of noodle called liangfen, which is a kind of starchy jelly like noodle. It's chewy. It goes really well with things that are cold.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. And presumably fills you up, you know, quite cheaply.

[Zing Seng]

It really does, because it's so starchy.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. So she served this dish cold, as you say. Made it easier to prepare. No cooking and no fuel bills, I suppose. Portions were big, they were cheap. And most crucially, she served it with her special crispy chili sauce.

[Zing Seng]

Oh, I can already imagine what this tastes like, and I think it must have tasted fantastic. In 1989, with the help of her sons, Tao opened a permanent restaurant, which was more like a roadside store that they built with bricks, rocks, and asbestos tiles. She called it shi hui, roughly translating as good value for money. And the cheap food was incredibly popular with local students, and she became affectionately known as old godmother in the neighborhood. She would give extra large portions or not even charge the poorer students.

[Simon Jack]

But she started to notice something important, and it was that the chili sauce was the thing that kept customers coming back one day. She hadn't made any. Customers didn't actually want to eat her noodles without it. So it was a rather sort of damning verdict on the noodles. But customers also asked if they could take some of the sauce home. Up to now, she hadn't charged for the sauce, but now she had an idea. She started making jars of it. Other local restaurants started buying it and serving her chili sauce. And then in the early 90s, a highway was built in the area. So Tao saw a big boost in business. And she was pretty clever about this. She gave her sauce out for free to these truckers using the highway to take home. And this worked as sort of word of mouth advertising. People outside the city were now traveling to buy her sauce. So her sauce is on the move.

[Zing Seng]

Running the restaurant was incredibly hard. Waking up in the middle of the night to buy ingredients, she served customers until 10pm and then after closing, she cooked for the next day. So in 1994, Tao stopped selling noodles completely and she changed her restaurant to a store selling chili sauce and other condiments. But she couldn't actually produce enough chili sauce to keep up with the demand. Now, I feel like we have to pause here. Make a note of the fact that this just sounds like a fairy tale.

[Simon Jack]

She was carrying vegetables for 25km. She then started carrying rocks. She was going to bed, working all hours, giving it away to poor people, then selling the jars. It does sound like a kind of. I mean, there's rags to riches and then there's this.

[Zing Seng]

Exactly. And you know, I think there must be some element of self, I guess, self advertising, right? Because it's literally her face on the jar. And these are the kind of stories that make people want to pick up a jar and buy it.

[Simon Jack]

And it's not as if she even looks that happy on the jar. She looks right as she, you know, looks quite stern. You don't want to mess with her.

[Zing Seng]

Maybe that's the face of someone who's had to carry rocks for a second job.

[Simon Jack]

That is a rock carrying face, that's for sure. Anyway, in 1996, with encouragement from her customers and local officials, she rented two houses and turned them into a factory, hiring around 40 workers. There was no production line. It was all manual. And when the glass jar manufacturer didn't want to fill such small orders, Tao was fierce. She argued, which child is born big? They all grow up slowly. If you don't give me the bottle today, I won't leave. I like that. I remember talking to a big Chinese business person and it was all about, you know, modern technology. But in many ways he spoke as if it was in kind of parables and proverbs that everything he'd said about his business and it feels like, which child is born big? Kind of fits that model.

[Zing Seng]

Which jar of chili sauce is born big?

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Zing Seng]

It was a difficult job to work in the factory, as you would expect, because the workers eyes would kind of tear up as they crushed the Sichuan peppercorns and chopped the chili peppers. Anybody who's ever had to do any of those things will know how much it hurts. Apparently Tao would show them how to do it, saying, I'll chop the chili peppers like apples and they won't sting my eyes at all. What's wrong with you young people? Suffering a little. Tao's own fingernails were apparently calcified after years of stirring the spicy sauce. And her own tongue was blistered from personally quality checking the sauce. I would not want to be on that factory assembly line on a day the sauce was not up to scratch.

[Simon Jack]

So there's a little health warning there. Don't taste millions and millions of jars of this stuff or something bad might happen to your tongue. Now. With the increased production, she was able to supply local restaurants and stores and sought out new customers in company canteens herself. She then moved to a bigger factory and expanded her team to 200 workers. And when hiring, she shared the company's ethos. Be a good person first before doing great things. Her eldest son decided to get in on the act, left his job to help his mother. He became the first general manager to help her with the paperwork.

[Zing Seng]

In 1997, Guiyang, Nanming, Laogan Ma Flavor Food Co Ltd. Was officially established. According to one source, that year the company had 14 million yuan in output value. And on straight Exchange that's around $480,000. But that doesn't really get across the domestic purchasing power. So to put it into perspective, at the time, the average wage for Chinese urban residents was 5,000 yuan and 2,000 for rural workers. So the company's output value was the same as thousands of people's income. So within China is probably very rich at this point, even if she's not officially a dollar millionaire.

[Simon Jack]

Right. And also remember 1997 was actually a pretty risky time to start a business. The Asian financial crisis was sweeping through the continent. And this was something that happened when essentially it started in Thailand when the value of the baht collapsed. And that led to sort of contagion to lots of other currencies there. And it was feared that there's this fast growing part of the world economy was suddenly going to go into reverse and create a sort. Now in the end it didn't, but it was very, very dicey. I remember I was working in finance myself. It was a big deal. The 97 Asian crisis and it was during this time the Chinese Communist Party was restructuring the economy under what was known as grasping the large, letting go of the small. A lot of state owned companies were being privatized and there was government support for entrepreneurship, which is kind of interesting because people think about China as a communist country, but it's a very strange hybrid of communism and market economic capital, market economics, right.

[Zing Seng]

And Tao was one of the people who benefited from this policy. She rapidly expanded the business. She sold to restaurants, supermarkets, school canteens. And there was also a lot more movement of people within China during this period. So workers from places like Guizhou and Sichuan took their tastes for spice and also jars of Tao's chili sauce to the rest of the country. And soon there were agents selling this brand in Beijing and Wuhan, covering most markets in China.

[Simon Jack]

A lot of people were moving to cities at that time as well, from rural areas. So you probably had much denser people, you know, a population to sell to.

[Zing Seng]

And people also feeling nostalgic and homesick for the taste of home, bringing these jars over, introducing them to their new friends. You know, it's kind of word by mouth advertising. And by 2000, revenue had increased more than tenfold, with 156 million yuan output value, which at the time roughly would have been around $19 million. Now, we still have to deduct costs and tax. But even after all of that, it's probably safe to say that around the turn of the millennium, in her early 50s, Tao Huabi is a US dollar millionaire.

[Simon Jack]

What a journey. Okay, now let's take Tao from a million onto a billion. And to do that, we all know about scaling up businesses. But she seemed to do it without sacrificing quality, which is something that can happen. She operated Laogan Ma under an ethos of no tax evasion, no loans, no debt, no public listing. And she consistently maintained the cash on delivery model, which means that, you know, I want to get paid, I'll pay my suppliers when I get my stuff, and you have to pay me when I deliver, rather than having credit terms, or I'll pay you in 90 days, which is much more cost common.

[Zing Seng]

Well, by refusing to go public, she was able to maintain her family's control of the business, despite getting pressure from the government and investors. And she also maintains tight control of the company in other ways because for a while, she struggled to trademark Laogan Ma, meaning old godmother, because multiple applications were rejected because it wasn't a unique enough name. Meanwhile, there were counterfeit Lao Ganma products popping up all over the country, threatening the reputation of TAO. And in 2001, the High Court in Beijing ruled that another prominent company had to stop using the name Lao Ganmao on its Flavored soybean products and similar packaging. She was compensated 400,000 yuan for economic losses, and there was a request for an apology in a nationally circulated newspaper. Now, counterfeit and infringement issues have continued over the years, but time and time again, she has cracked down hard on these copycats.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, counterfeiting is one of those things that was characterized the emergence of lots of Chinese companies. And in the early, early 2000s, she began to expand the business internationally, exporting her chili sauce to North America, to Australia, Europe, South Africa, and the rest of Southeast Asia. And overseas, the product could cost up to 10 times more than in China. And she's quoted as having said, I like this. I'm Chinese. I don't make money off Chinese people. I want to sell laogan ma to foreign countries and make money off foreigners. Good for you. And for many Chinese students studying abroad, laogan ma was actually a bit of a reminder of home, a cure for

[Zing Seng]

homesick, much like those rural workers moving into urban cities and populations in China.

[Simon Jack]

What's like a sort of jar of Branston pickle for a Brit living abroad?

[Zing Seng]

Exactly. Although I don't think Branson does Branson pickle sell for 10 times more abroad?

[Advertisement Voice]

Maybe.

[Simon Jack]

I think it probably does. I don't. I don't know. I did live abroad for a while. Whenever my family came out or get them to bring a jar of something or other.

[Zing Seng]

The international scale of the business meant that it could no longer operate with that manual production model that Tao took pride in. Presumably, there's only so many jars of chili sauce you can dip your finger in to taste. So she invested to automate the production line from ingredients proportioning to labeling.

[Simon Jack]

Now, as we mentioned in the beginning of this, Tara was illiterate. She used to use circles to represent her signature until she was taught how to write her name. She needed the financial statements read to her, which she would memorize. Fortunately, this was still very much a family business, so her son was on hand to help. And, of course, she had had very sharp mental arithmetic from her days selling vegetables. Pretty amazing that you're running a business which is, you know, raking in billions while the founder actually cannot read.

[Zing Seng]

All right.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, all right. Yeah. She was living a pretty humble life on her factory compound with her staff. She slept in a bedroom next to an undecorated office. And after trips arranged by her son or secretary, she'd be in a rush to head back to the factory. So she's not got too many airs and graces.

[Zing Seng]

And she also rarely gave media interviews. But in 2006, in an article. Article, she spoke about her four wishes that the burden on her employees would be less, the company would continue to attract great talent, for fewer copyright infringements and for more good companies. And it seemed like she really did care about her employees. They were given meals and accommodation. It's reported that their salaries and benefits were among the highest in Guiyang. She talked about her relationship with her workers, saying, I believe that if I treat them with my heart, they will also repay me with their love. I don't want people with big names who are not honest. I'd rather find someone who's willing to learn and work hard. And apparently she even knew the names of about half of her 2,000 employees. Now, I do feel like we still have to raise a little bit of skepticism here.

[Simon Jack]

I don't know. I think that something about her character and what we know about it, I can, you know, I'm trying to think how many of my colleagues I can remember your name.

[Advertisement Voice]

Thank God.

[Simon Jack]

Anyway, I'm gonna say that I believe that.

[Zing Seng]

Well, I think we should also remind our listeners that under the Chinese Communist Party, and as we go on to see, Tao became quite a lodestar in it, history can be mythologized or, you know, there's always the value of a good story, I think.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, for sure. But she wasn't above spending her money, obviously frugal ways in some. But she did travel in a limited edition Rolls Royce with the lucky number plate gym A8888. So an eight's a lucky number in China, right?

[Zing Seng]

It is, yeah. The number 8 is associated with wealth in China.

[Simon Jack]

It sounds like it actually. The words actually sound similar.

[Zing Seng]

Exactly.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, like a homonym then. Yeah, it's a homonym. Okay, There we go.

[Zing Seng]

So you'll often get, you know, people with license plates. People want to live in flats with the number eight. You know, it's a real thing.

[Simon Jack]

She also had a Bentley worth the equivalent of a few hundred thousand bottles of her chili sauce. And not all her employees were loyal. One leaked her recip, which is estimated to cost the company millions of yuan. And the company, though, acted immediately. Stepped right, Stamped right on it. The Forum employee was arrested and detained by police on suspicion of infringement of trade secrets.

[Zing Seng]

By this point, Tao was an influential figure. She got into politics in the 2000s. She served as a deputy to the National People's Congress, attending annual sessions in Beijing as a representative from her county, Guizhou. It's reported that she gained some significant power within the National People's Congress and used her influence to spotlight food fraud and counterfeiting. Now, for context, the Congress is China's top legislative body in formal terms, although in practice it's generally not independent and largely endorses decisions made by the Communist Party leadership.

[Assistant/Producer Voice]

Yeah.

[Simon Jack]

Now, normally, as regular listeners will know, we use Forbes Rich List, but China actually has its own version of it, which is called the Hurun Rich list. And in 2006, she was listed there for the first time at number 324, worth US$125 million, earning her the title of richest person in Guizhou. And by the end of the, the Laogan MA factory was producing approximately 1.3 million jars of the chili sauce daily. And she built this giant global brand organically, mainly through word of mouth. Astonishingly. No advertising, no marketing, no pr. I mean, I mean, it's hard to do that, but it's part of the secret sauce, if you like, of her success.

[Zing Seng]

And I also think part of it is because the taste of it was initially so distinctive when it first appeared in, in Western countries and was introduced to people who hadn't even tried anything like Sichuan peppercorns, like Sichuan, like chilies before. It doesn't taste like any other chili sauce that you can think of. It's certainly a million miles away from sweet chili sauce.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, it is. And also I think that the thing that struck me when I've seen it in our fridge at home, because I look like, what is this? And actually there's no real English characters on it. So you think, oh, it must have been got from some specialist Chinese shop. It must be the real deal.

[Zing Seng]

It must be extra authentic.

[Simon Jack]

It must be extra authentic. I really like. That's cool, isn't it? You. There's a bit of that going on.

[Zing Seng]

And it really did, I think, kickstart a whole global market for chili sauce of this type.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, of course, her face on the label, which, as I say, I didn't believe was a real human being. But now I know different. It's reported that in 2014, age 67, Tao stepped back from daily operations. She let her two sons take the lead. And that year, the Hurun Rich List declared she had become a US dollar billionair.

[Advertisement Voice]

This is Hoda Kotb from Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. You know, I've realized that joy doesn't always come from big moments. Sometimes it finds you on the most ordinary day. I'll pop into a CVS for toothpaste or paper towels, and it never seems to be just a quick errand. Maybe I'll grab a delicious well Market trail mix or wander over to the Joyward Collection. That's part of the fun. So the next time you're checking something off your to do list, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You might go in for one thing and leave with a little more joy. Visit your local CVS pharmacy sponsored by cvs. This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season fresh, organic and bursting with flavor. Start your day with peaches and organic blueberries and yogurt. Build a grazing board with fresh fruit, prosciutto and artisanal cheese. Then fire up the grill with no animal, antibiotics, everproteins and fresh produce. Savor the season. Shop Summer Fruit Fest at Whole Foods

Market Self Directed Investing Trading Full Service Wealth Management Automated Investing Financial Planning Thematic Investing Retirement Planning. Phew. And to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing, style, life, stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need all in one place so you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Zing Seng]

We face the greatest challenges of our

[Advertisement Voice]

time, challenges that test our limits. There is a place where we can find answers, where journeys break new ground and connections unlock opportunities. Where innovation can spark real change and

[Zing Seng]

our actions can push our world forward. Singapore where business events can create lasting impact. Let's take Tower in the story of Laogan Ma Beyond a billion in 2017, it was revealed she'd given her sons the entire business business. Li Miao sing held a 51% stake and Li Guishan had the remaining 49% stake. And that meant how dropped off that billionaire list to be replaced by her sons.

[Simon Jack]

But it was reported that by 2019, revenue had fallen. So Tao comes back. She returns to management. Although it's worth noting the company characterized this as speculation and wouldn't comment on it.

[Zing Seng]

The word of mouth advertising has continued for Lao Ganma, but in our current times, that looks like going viral on social media. In 2019, at the New York Fashion Week, fashion brand opening ceremony presented a hoodie that looked exactly like the jars, including Tao's face. From what I can tell, this wasn't exactly an official collaboration. Wrestling star John Senna took to his socials to declare his love for the brand. In Mandarin, he says he puts it on broccoli. And meanwhile, the singer Sam Smith posted a video putting it on their eggs I mean, you can't buy that kind of advertising.

[Simon Jack]

Which makes me think it must have been organized. I mean, someone's doing that, right? I mean, they don't all simultaneously decide, oh, I'm gonna get a sweatshi with a jar of chili sauce on it.

[Advertisement Voice]

It's.

[Zing Seng]

That may be true, but I also feel like there's an element of people like this want to be seen to be engaging with the coolest kind of, most niche kind of product out there. And it doesn't get more niche than a product completely branded in a language you don't read or understand.

[Simon Jack]

Exactly. It's all about authenticity. If you can fake that, you've got it made. So anyway, you know, I suppose the question is, why did it go viral? You know, I mean, I suppose the question. If we knew why anything goes viral, then we'd all be doing it. Right. Because it's the. To success.

[Zing Seng]

I do think part of it has to do with COVID because if you remember, people were stuck at home, bored out of their minds, cooking a lot more than they might have done. And maybe more people than usual engaged with new and exciting sources, including Laogan Ma.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Anyway, the social media buzz on sites like TikTok, Instagram and others meant the company's overseas revenue started shooting up. It rose 30% in 2023. Today, Laogan Ma produces 3 million bottles every day and uses 45,000 tons of chili pepp. And there's plenty of room to go because by 2028, the global chili sauce market is estimated to grow to six and a half billion dollars.

[Zing Seng]

Maybe it's time for us to get into chili sauce.

[Simon Jack]

We should do a good bad billionaire branded chili sauce and surreptitiously do some product placement, which we're so kindly doing for Logan Ma. Not that she needs the money.

[Zing Seng]

It's true. She really doesn't need the money.

[Simon Jack]

Well, that is an absolutely extraordinary story. As I say, rags to riches almost doesn't capture it. But now we're going to SC on our billionaire categories, which are wealth, controversy, power, and legacy. This is a bit of fun where we go through these categories and score our billionaires between 0 and 10. So let us start with wealth. And in a way, she's kind of creeping in here under the radar, right?

[Zing Seng]

Yeah. I mean, she's technically no longer a billionaire, and when she was, she was only worth a billion dollars. But don't forget, she was very wealthy for the context of her time.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. And grew up in dirt poverty, as we've discussed. But we also like to see how she spends. And quite frugal most of the time. A few exceptions, though.

[Zing Seng]

I mean, she's got that fancy car. But I also love this story. She apparently refused to live in the villa that her sons bought her because it was too far away from the company.

[Simon Jack]

Maybe they wanted to put her a little bit further away from them just so she wasn't doing all the backseat driving.

[Zing Seng]

Mum, you'll love this place.

[Simon Jack]

It's only miles away.

[Zing Seng]

It's only an hour and a half away from the factory.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Okay, so we're going to have to give her, even though she is really a one on the billionaire scale, given the poverty she came from and the journey she's been, I'm actually gonna score her six.

[Zing Seng]

Actually, I think it's a fantastic rags to riches story. And that also does play into our score. I think I'm gonna give her a seven out of ten.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, so six for me, seven for you. Controversy. We don't have a lot of sources. We should, you know. Sources. Sources with an R O U R. And we should, you know, clarify that. It's hard to know whether we're getting the entire full picture, but from what we do know, I mean. I mean, you know, be a good person first, then do great things. Only use your own money. I want my own workers. You're providing for her workers. You know, pretty uncontroversial stuff, I would say.

[Zing Seng]

Yeah. I mean, I feel like we never give anyone a zero, so I feel like we should just give her a one just in case there's a body in a vat of chili oil somewhere. We need to hedge our bets.

[Simon Jack]

Perfectly preserved. I'm going to give her zero.

[Zing Seng]

Okay, well, I'll give her a word just in case there is. Okay.

[Simon Jack]

I'll take. I'll take the chance that there's not a body in the bottom of the chili vat. Power. Tricky one in China, this one, isn't it?

[Zing Seng]

She was directly involved in politics. She was a representative at the National People's Congress. And important to note that she's been amazing for her home county because it funds apparently 50,000 acres of pepper fields in guitar. God. Imagine the smell coming off those in the sun. And it employs nearly 5,000 people. So really transformative for that very poor rural county.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. In 2016, Bloomberg credited her with helping the historically poor Guizu achieve 10 and a half percent economic growth, which was actually ahead of the national rate of nearly 7% that year. So she's obviously done great things. I mean, an icon, a powerful person within her province for sure. Overall, I don't know. Do you think she could call up Xi Jinping?

[Zing Seng]

Oh, that's an interesting question. Question.

[Simon Jack]

I. I bet he'd take that call.

[Zing Seng]

She is responsible for one of the most iconic and instantly recognizable Chinese products in the world. I would say.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. She's a massive Chinese success story. Right. So I would. Okay, let's give. I'm gonna give her a five.

[Zing Seng]

I'll give her a six out of ten.

[Simon Jack]

Okay. On Power and then Legacy, you know, the jar label, it's her face on it. It's become a cultural symbol for Chinese food, Chinese exports, gentlemen, generally around the world and, you know, quite, you know, linked to national identity as well.

[Zing Seng]

Yeah. I think, interestingly, condiments for some reason, have become really synonymous of national pride and a country's identity. So, you know, you've got ketchup in the usa. You've got wasabi with Japan. You've got Heinz HP sauce. Branson's pickle with the uk. Yes. Dijon mustard, Vegemite in Australia. Exactly. So Lao Ganma is definitely up there with China.

[Simon Jack]

Okay. I don't know what to say on Legacy. I mean, how long will they be selling those jars? I think for. For decades to come, I would imagine. So I'm going to give her. Give her a seven.

[Zing Seng]

Yeah, I think I'll give her a seven as well. If there was no Lao Gan Ma chilli sauce, I don't think we'd have half the chili sauces we have in supermarkets today.

[Simon Jack]

Okay. All right, well, so seven each on Legacy. And I mean, you know, as I say, what a belter of a story, you know, almost beggar's belief. It feels like, as I say, a fairy tale or a parable or something, doesn't it?

[Zing Seng]

I know, and it really fits. I mean, I love the fact that the woman on the chili sauce is actually a real person.

[Simon Jack]

That's the. That's the big learning. So anyway, the question we always ask at the end is, is she good, bad, or just a billionaire? What do you think? You can email goodbadbillionairebc.com or drop us a text or WhatsApp to 001-916-861176. That's 001-917-686-1176 and tell us what you

[Zing Seng]

think and don't forget to include your name as we may read out your message on a future episode.

[Simon Jack]

We've got some listener feedback here. This is Julius from Kampala in Uganda. He sent us a WhatsApp. Hey, good bad Billionaire. What a fantastic podcast. You guys are doing an incredible job. I especially enjoy Zing's voice. Oh, thanks, thanks. It blends so well with Jack's. And Jack, you strike me as a genuinely easy going bloke. In real life. I don'. But I just get that feeling. You're dead right.

[Zing Seng]

I can confirm. He goes on to say, what makes your podcast stand out is how natural it feels. It's like listening to two good friends sitting in a restaurant. I wish we were sitting in a restaurant, recording, casually discussing something they deeply understand and genuinely enjoy. That authenticity is rare. Wow. Thank you. I've listened to almost all your episodes, the most recent being Lucy Guo. That was a good story. And I've learned a great deal from these stories. They've really shaped how I think about wealth and human nature.

[Simon Jack]

And he says, in my view, whether a billionaire is good or bad often comes down to who they were before the money. Those driven by purpose and a desire to reduce suffering tend to give back, while others remain focused on accumulating, more often overlooking the hardship around them. Like millions struggling to feed their families, sick children and homelessness across the globe. It's a reflection of human nature, really. In some, greed takes the lead. In others, generosity and altruism are deeply ingrained.

[Zing Seng]

Sometimes I wonder what I would do with that level of wealth, he says. I'd like to think I'd follow in the footsteps of people like Chuck Feeney or perhaps Bill Gates, both philanthropists, because at the end of the day, no one takes a bank account with them beyond this life. Truer words of spoken thank you for what you do. I genuinely love the podcast. Thank you, Julius, for that feedback. So who do we have on next week's episode?

[Simon Jack]

Okay, vegetarians beware. This is a meat packed episode. It's the story of two Brazilians, brothers, Wesley and Joesli Batista, each of them worth $5.7 billion.

[Zing Seng]

And they own JBS, the biggest meat producer in the world.

[Simon Jack]

There's scandal, there's jail time, there's political

[Zing Seng]

corruption allegations, and there's a lot of beef being slaughtered. That's the story of the Batista brothers on the next episode of Good Bad Billionaire.

[Simon Jack]

Good Bad Billionaire is a BBC World Service podcast produced by A. Elena Boateng. The researcher is Hannah Ramazani, the editor is Paul Smith and it's a BBC Studios production for the BBC World Service. The senior commissioning producer is Sarah Green and the commissioning editor is John Manell.

[Assistant/Producer Voice]

Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressives name your price tool for years. Now, with the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your best budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive. Com. Find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and Coverage Match limited By state law.