The dead billionaires: What do you think?

Summary

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Good Bad Billionaire – "The Dead Billionaires: What Do You Think?"

BBC World Service, August 27, 2025
Hosts: Simon Jack & Zing Tsjeng

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Episode Overview

This special listener mailbag episode centers on audience reactions to the recent "Dead Billionaires" mini-series, which profiled five iconic U.S. billionaires: John D. Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Howard Hughes, Sam Walton, and Hetty Green. Simon and Zing read and discuss listener emails and WhatsApps, exploring a spectrum of opinions on whether these trailblazing billionaires should be considered "good," "bad," or simply "just another billionaire." Broader questions of wealth, legacy, and billionaire ethics are woven throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Engagement and Global Reach

• Zing and Simon highlight the wide demographic and geographic range of listeners, noting responses from Ireland, Zambia, Nigeria, Germany, Australia, the US, Spain, and South Africa.
• They reflect on how the podcast is educating and inspiring listeners of different ages, possibly even "would-be billionaires."

  "I've had people tell me their little brothers and little sisters like listening to the podcast. So maybe there'll be some would be billionaires who are listening to us right now, taking notes and learning lessons." – Zing (01:46)

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2. Audience Verdicts on the “Dead Billionaires”

John D. Rockefeller

• Diverse views: Some see him as "just another billionaire" (Kabimbi, Zambia, 03:04), others as "good" for philanthropy (Joel Jensen), while some condemn him for monopolistic practices (Mustafa, Nigeria, 03:51).

  "I think John D. Rockefeller should pass as a bad billionaire for annihilating competition." – Mustafa, Nigeria (03:51)

• Historical context: Listeners acknowledge it's hard to label "the first billionaire" as just another.

Henry Ford

• Complex legacy: Criticized for anti-Semitism (Kabimbi, Zambia, 04:35), and environmental/social impacts of cars (Nabik, Germany, 04:55).
• Simon and Zing debate whether Ford could have foreseen the long-term damage of his inventions:

  "Did people have a fully informed view of the likely impact of cars? Climate science didn’t really exist in those days." – Simon (05:43)

• Defended for innovation: Listener Aris in Australia calls Ford a "good billionaire" and credits the podcast for inspiring a study in economics (06:03).

Sam Walton

• Praised as “good”: Listener Alex Chapman lauds Walton’s positive employment impact via Walmart (06:28).

  "You can argue that no company in the last 50 years has been responsible for employing more people than Walmart." – Alex Chapman (06:28)

• Hosts reflect: On Walmart's size and influence, with Zing remarking on its scale after visiting.

Hetty Green

• Gendered scrutiny: Listeners note the double standards faced by Green and other wealthy women.

  "Work for a man would be seen as eccentricities, for a woman saw her labeled as a witch, and she says it’s infuriating." – Zing, recounting Geronima (07:08)

• Generally assessed as neither distinctly good nor bad, but a "product of her childhood and the times" (Jeronima, 07:28).
• Some listeners appreciate her for not causing public harm and for bailing out banks (Lillian Pearce, 07:57).

Howard Hughes

• Regarded as perhaps the most "fun" in youth, but eccentric and troubled in later years (02:53).

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3. Broader Questions: Wealth, Legacy & Capitalism

• Do we need billionaires?
  Listener Loiso Maffea (South Africa, 08:38) praises the podcast and offers nuanced takes on Rockefeller (good), Ford (bad), Hughes (just another). He argues that self-made billionaires arise naturally in open economies:

  "As bad and potentially dangerous as economic inequality is, the gap between say the very top athletes or the brightest people with highest IQs than ordinary people is equally exponential but not as visible." – Loiso Maffea (09:47)

• Hosts respond:
  • Simon reflects that billionaire stories reveal what society values ("People don't get fantastically rich unless they provide something to the rest of us that we either need, want or enjoy." – Simon, 10:11).
  • Zing emphasizes the complexity of evaluating billionaires, shifting away from one-dimensional judgment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the first billionaire:

  "It is difficult to call the first ever billionaire just another billionaire." – Kabimbi, Zambia (03:18)

• On the power of capitalism:

  "The existence of billionaires tells us something about ourselves." – Simon (10:11)

• On gendered perceptions:

  "If Musk was a woman, she would get a lot more heat." – Geronima, via Zing (07:20)

• On changing lives:

  "I love listening to your podcast. It’s the only reason I chose economics as my elective." – Aris, Australia (06:03)

• On personal wealth thresholds:

  "Once you have a billion, who needs more? Once you have 100 million, why more?" – Jeronima (07:44)

• On deciding to bow out:

  "We’d have gone fishing now." – Simon, joking about leaving after 10 million (07:56)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:16 – Show begins; introduction to episode theme.
• 02:11 – Launch into listener feedback on the dead billionaire mini-series.
• 03:04 – Rockefeller reactions from Zambia & Nigeria.
• 04:35 – Henry Ford: anti-Semitism and environmental critiques.
• 06:03 – Positive listener engagement and Ford’s defenders.
• 06:28 – Sam Walton discussed as an employment force.
• 06:49 – Walmart’s scale and impact.
• 07:08 – Hetty Green: gender, perception, and legacy.
• 07:57 – Listener defends Hetty for saving banks.
• 08:38 – Loiso Maffea’s extensive feedback, wealth inequality debate.
• 10:11 – Hosts reflect on the existence of billionaires and what it says about society.
• 11:03 – Call for more listener feedback and end of main content.

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Conclusion

This episode showcases the diversity, nuance, and personal impact of the "Good Bad Billionaire" podcast. Listener voices from around the world provide a multifaceted perspective on historic billionaires’ legacies, raising important questions about wealth, social good, and the future of capitalism. Simon and Zing reinforce the complexity of moral judgments about the super-wealthy and invite ongoing debate and suggestions from their audience.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. I'm Zing Singh.

[A]

I'm Simon Jack and on this special mini episode, we're hearing from you, our listeners.

[B]

Yeah, we've been asking you to get in touch and we have been overwhelmed by the responses we've received.

[A]

We've been doing this show for two years, so we thought it was time to start hearing directly from the audience. We've had loads of emails, loads of whatsapps. It's really great to get the feedback because these are fascinating stories and people take different things from them. And there's a massive geographical range, there's a massive age range of people who've got in touch.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I've had people tell me their little brothers and little sisters like listening to the podcast. So maybe there'll be some would be billionaires who are listening to us right now, taking notes and learning lessons.

[A]

Yeah, maybe we'll feature them if we're still going. We've been going for two years. One little departure we obviously did was we did a little miniseries on five dead billionaires from the US and we asked you to decide if each of them was good, bad or just another billionaire.

[B]

So that's John D. Rockefeller, Henry Ford, Howard Hughes, Sam Walton and Hetty Green. So we've told you their stories and you've come back and told us what you think. So let's dive right in with our first message.

[A]

This is an email from John o' Mahoney in Ireland who says, love your podcast. Thanks, John. My dog Matilda also loves the series.

[B]

Thanks, Matilda.

[A]

Thank you, Matilda. She gets loads of walks. I see. So I can listen. We've decided these American billionaires are a rum lot. Definitely not fun house guests. Well, maybe a young Howard Hughes, but they did leave a legacy. So Rockefeller, Green and Walton, good. Hughes, very bad. Ford, just another billionaire. John also sent us some suggestions for Irish billionaires we may look at in future episodes. So thank you, John.

[B]

I do agree. Young Howard Hughes, probably fun at a party. Older Howard Hughes, the one who crashed his plane. Probably not.

[A]

Fingernails and hair everywhere. Questionable personal hygiene by the end, not so much fun.

[B]

Yeah, not so much fun. So let's have some more messages about John D. Rockefeller. Here's an email. Greetings, Simon and Zing. This is Kabimbi from Zambia. I thoroughly enjoy your podcast. Look forward to listening to it every week. I think Rockefeller is just another billionaire. Incredibly successful, but still just another billionaire. Though I might add that it is difficult to call the first ever billionaire just another billionaire.

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

Yeah, it's a very good point. He really did set the benchmark for a lot of our other rich people.

[A]

I also got quite a lot of feedback saying, well, what about Julius Caesar, what about Cleopatra? What about Ramesses II of Egypt and all that kind of stuff? So they are dead and they were undoubtedly rich. Quite hard to say that these were personal fortunes, though.

[B]

Yeah. I will say that if anybody wants to get in touch and tell us what the real estate value on the pyramids is, perhaps we will do episodes on the Pharaohs.

[A]

Let's get an estate agent around there right now. Here's a WhatsApp we had from Mustafa in Nigeria who said, I love your podcast. Thank you, Mustafa. I think John D. Rockefeller should pass as a bad billionaire for annihilating competition. Very good point, because that was one of the things that came out though, his monopolistic practices.

[B]

Yeah. And he did inspire a lot of the antitrust legislation in the states that is still being used today.

[A]

Yep, that's right. You hear the word antitrust all the time. Even with companies like, for example, the modern tech giants. That goes all the way back to Rockefeller. But another listener, Joel Jensen, disagrees.

[B]

He says, I would vote that John D. Rockefeller was a good billionaire despite the antitrust issues. It was a different time, that's true. And the industry he operated in was in its infancy. Furthermore, he was against slavery and he was ahead of his time in respect of Philanthropy.

[A]

Yeah, lots of opinions. Opinions about Rockefeller. So what about Henry Ford? Kabimbi from Zambia also emailed us about Henry ford. I think Mr. Ford is a bad billionaire primarily because of his anti Semitic stance. However, outside that, he was a revolutionary character. It's just the anti Semitism that soils his reputation. Keep up the good work, guys. Really enjoy the show. Thank you, Kabimbi.

[B]

And here's another email about Henry Ford. Dear Good Bad Billionaire Team, this is Nabik from Dieseldorf, Germany. Thank you so much for producing this podcast, which has quickly become my favorite podcast. I listen to an episode almost every day. Wow, thank you coming. Thank you so much, Nabik. I think Henry Ford, he says, is a difficult subject because cars have had such a diverse impact on history and he probably couldn't have known how they'd feel. Climate change ruin American cities and kill millions annually through accidents. Of course, they also did a lot of good, for instance, in enabling emergency medical care through ambulance vehicles. But given that cars are one of the main factors making Earth uninhabitable and his ruthless business practices, I say bad billionaire. Looking forward to the next episode. I mean, that's certainly one angle you can take on Henry Ford, but arguably, would he have ever guessed that cars would have done all this stuff?

[A]

In his defense, did people have a fully informed view of the likely impact of cars? Climate science didn't really exist in those days either. So, you know, I'm not trying to say that cars haven't had an impact on the environment, but you could question how foreseeable it was given the science available at the time.

[B]

Well, if you disagree, you know how to reach us.

[A]

And in fact, we did receive a WhatsApp we got from Aris in Australia who defended Henry Ford. I love listening to your podcast. It's the only reason I chose economics as my elective. I think Henry Ford is a good billionaire, by the way.

[B]

Wow. Changing people's academic careers. Oh my gosh.

[A]

I feel a terrible sense of responsibility. I hope that goes well.

[B]

Yeah. Iris, tell us how you do in your elective. I hope you get an A.

[A]

Here's an email about the Walmart founder Sam Walton from Alex Chapman. In my opinion, Sam Walton is a good billionaire. You can argue that no company in the last 50 years has been responsible for employing more people than Walmart. That is true. Almost certainly true.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I have to say, having just come back from a trip to America and been in a warm up for the first time in years. God, those places are huge. They must Employ a lot of people.

[A]

Moving to our only female dead billionaire, Hetty Green. We got this WhatsApp from Geronima, originally from Barcelona but now living in New York. Who says, first, let me say I love three O's your podcast. Thank you, Geronima. You're a great team who explores so many angles. I love the Dead Billionaire miniseries.

[B]

Yet, talking about Hetty Green, she thanks us for focusing on women who aren't well known and agrees that work for a man would be seen as eccentricities for a woman. Saw her labeled as a witch, and she says it's infuriating. And even though there are more wealthy women now, they still need to be careful. If Musk was a woman, she would get a lot of heat. Well, presumably a lot more than a lot more heat.

[A]

Yes. Jeronimo judges Hetty Green to be just another billionaire, saying she is neither good nor bad, a product of her childhood and the times. And if she had been a man, she would have been another Rockefeller or Vanderbilt. Jeronim ends by saying, I agree. Once you have a billion, who needs more? Once you have 100 million, why more?

[B]

It's a good question as well.

[A]

One, we've often said that we would have been gone long before it had been us.

[B]

I mean, not even 100 million.

[A]

Just have a revolving chair after we got about, what, 10 million?

[B]

10. I think that's my cap.

[A]

We've gone fishing now.

[B]

Here's another email on hettygreen. I want to say she was as good as any billionaire. I don't admire any of them reasoning that she didn't cover the world in concrete or destructive products, and she's probably helped by saving banks from collapse. Yours sincerely, Lillian Pearce.

[A]

That's very interesting because she did bail out a number of banks in previous financial crises, a bit like the one we saw back in 2008. So thank you very much for that, Lillian.

[B]

Thank you so much to our listeners for all those messages.

[A]

It's really great to hear. It's interesting to get a sort of a range of opinions on across the board and on each individual one. Which just goes to show the. You know, there are a couple of sides to these stories. They are nuanced and interesting stories.

[B]

Yeah. You know, these billionaire stories are really complex. They're really interesting.

[A]

And we're going to close today with an email from loyal listener Loiso Maffea from South Africa, who begins, Good, Bad Billionaire is the very first podcast I ever listened to. Wow. After reading Simon's article in BBC.com, timing, Luck, or talent. What makes a billionaire? Well that's great to know that that resonated. I've been hooked ever since. My 11 year old money loving son is also an addict and I've listened to every episode. There is much to love about the series, but above all it's the chemistry between the two of you that raises it to another level. Aw, that's sweet.

[B]

Go on, he says. My favorite moment was on the Ike Batista episode when Simon laughed off the judge's excuse for driving around in Batista's impounded Porsche. I also credit your show for introduc me to the world of podcasts. They're all I listen to now when I'm driving around. But Good Bad Billionaire remains my favorite. Wow, talk about a conversion rate there.

[A]

Yeah, well stick with us. I'm particularly enjoying, he says, the current mini season on Dead Billionaires. My take on the ones I've listened to so far. Rockefeller good billionaire, he gave away so much. Ford bad billionaire went to great lengths for his anti Semitism. And Hughes just another though interesting billionaire. He reminds me of Elon Musk for the diversity of industries in which he was successful.

[B]

And then he also adds, as for the larger question of whether we need billionaires or not, my answer is yes. Self made ones are the natural product of progress in open economies. As bad and potentially dangerous as economic inequality is, the gap between say the very top athletes or the brightest people with highest IQs than ordinary people is equally exponential but not as visible. Thank you once again to you and your team for a great show. More please.

[A]

Well that's interesting. We right at the beginning of this whole thing couple of years ago, we talked about whether the existence of billionaires was a good or bad thing in itself because you know, it is a crushing example of inequality. On the other hand, other people will say that a profit motive, whatever would you have? The innovation that we've seen in certain areas and the fact which I like to come back to is that the existence of billionaires tells us something about ourselves. People don't get fantastically rich unless they provide something to the rest of us that we either need, want or enjoy.

[B]

And we are willing to to handle the money to get it.

[A]

Exactly. So they tell us something about ourselves. Thank you so much for all of those fantastic messages telling us what you think about the billionaires we cover, both dead and alive. And thank you for your suggestions of billionaires for us to cover too. We do read them and some of them may well turn up in our next season.

[B]

Now if you want to get in touch, email goodbadbillionairebc.com or drop us a text or WhatsApp to 001-917-686-1177 to tell.

[A]

Us what you think that is. Good bad billionaire all one [e-mail] or 001-917-686-1176 and don't forget to include your name. We may read out your message on a future episode as we just have.

[B]

And don't forget to say where you're from as well, because that is really interesting to find out where our listeners are. And yes, we will be back with more billionaires, both good and bad, later in the year.

[A]

Good Bad Billionaire is a BBC World Service podcast. It's produced by Mark Ward. Paul Smith is the editor and it's a BBC Studios audio production for the BBC Ward Service.

[B]

The Commissioning Editor is John Minow and if you enjoyed it, do tell a friend.