Toto Wolff: Mercedes's billion-dollar F1 boss

Summary

Good Bad Billionaire: Toto Wolff – Mercedes’s Billion-Dollar F1 Boss

BBC World Service
Hosts: Simon Jack & Zing Tsjeng
Release Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the remarkable rise of Toto Wolff, the billionaire team boss and co-owner of Mercedes’s Formula One team. Hosts Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng track Wolff’s life from a privileged but traumatic childhood in Vienna to his dual success in venture capital and motorsport. They analyze his unique role as both team principal and significant team owner, the qualities (and controversies) that shaped his career, and what his story says about the intersection of money, power, and elite sport in the 21st century.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Wolff’s Early Life and Motivations

[03:15–05:14]

• Born 1972 in Vienna to a Polish mother (doctor) and Romanian father (art transport company owner).
• Early years were comfortable and cosmopolitan – attended a prestigious French school and speaks six languages.
• At age 8, Wolff's father was diagnosed with brain cancer and the family lost its wealth ("went belly up") and status, which left deep scars and formed his drive for control and resilience.

  “I was 8 or 9 or 10 and I wanted to be in control and I wasn’t. Remember that thought.” – Simon Jack [03:54]
  “How do you explain that to your friends? How do you explain that to your 10 year old sister? I have these moments in my mind so strongly, it’s like an imprint.” – Zing Tsjeng, recalling Wolff’s words [04:16]

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2. Discovery of Motorsports

[05:14–07:46]

• At 17: Road trip to the Nurburgring sparks obsession with racing.
• Started late compared to most professional drivers ("failed his driving test first time", crashed his first car).
• Funded initial racing by pitching for sponsorship — even presenting to parents at his school.
• Attended Vienna University for economics, combining study and early racing career.
• Racing is a sport with enormous financial barriers ("you need a sugar daddy or a rich daddy").

  “If somebody is talented, very talented, you probably need to spend a million euros in karting... you need to have a sugar daddy or a rich daddy.” – Simon Jack [07:34]

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3. Pivot to Business and Venture Capital

[09:57–15:21]

• After a major sponsor pulled out post-1994 racing tragedies (Senna et al.), Wolff moved into investment banking (Warsaw), then sales management for an Austrian steel company, and finally launched his own consultancy.
• Inspired by the San Francisco dot-com boom, founded one of Europe’s first tech VCs (“March 15th”) in 1998.
• Notable early win: Invested in Austria's most popular website (sms.at), turning this into millions.

  “According to Toto, they didn’t have a single failure because we never paid for any of these investments ourselves... consulting for shares.” – Simon Jack [12:07]

• VC approach was unusual: raised other people’s money, took shares as payment, didn’t put his own capital at risk.

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4. Return to Racing – Business Meets Passion

[15:21–20:16]

• With new-found wealth, returned to motorsport as an amateur GT driver and co-founded a racing driver management company with Mika Hakkinen.
• Noted for mixing business and sport, starting to manage up-and-coming F1 talents (Valtteri Bottas among them).
• Acquired large stakes in racing-related companies and made millions from taking HWA (a Mercedes partner/build team) public.
• Infamous 2009 Nurburgring crash: Attempted to break the lap record, suffered a major accident and concussion.

  “He had to squeeze your ass cheeks and commit.” – Zing Tsjeng recounting Wolff’s self-description [19:19] “I said to myself, no more competitive racing.” – Zing Tsjeng on Wolff’s post-crash vow [20:16]

• The crash indirectly led to meeting his future wife, Susie Stoddart (later Wolff).

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5. Rise at Williams and Move to Mercedes

[21:10–23:54]

• Purchased a 16% stake in Williams F1, joined the board, advised on their IPO, became Executive Director.
• Helped Williams to a race victory in 2012; both he and wife Susie worked with the team.
• Attracted to Mercedes by chance: bought in with a 30% stake and became Team Principal/CEO, marking a rare blend of ownership and management (“unique among the team principals in Formula 1 today”).
• Discusses the challenge of leaving Williams for Mercedes, his loyalty and hesitations.

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6. The Mercedes Era: Winning, Leadership & Drama

[24:44–32:49]

• Arrival at Mercedes coincided with Niki Lauda and engineer Paddy Lowe, ushering a new collaborative approach.
• Managed intense in-team driver rivalry (Hamilton vs. Rosberg). Famous for confronting drivers after their on-track collision:

  “Don’t challenge me on this; you don’t want to find out what I am capable of.” – Toto Wolff [26:18]

• Repaired relationships (notably with Lewis Hamilton), leading the team to an unprecedented eight consecutive Constructors’ Championships (2014–2021).
• Also oversaw Hamilton’s historic driver titles.
• Mercedes as a ‘traveling engineering circus’ – heavy, relentless international schedule:

  “I fly around 600 hours during the racing season and can spend 300 nights out of the year in hotels.” – Zing Tsjeng, paraphrasing Wolff [28:09]

• Rivalry with Red Bull’s Christian Horner is legendary:

  “Toto is… a tax evader in Monaco, who runs his team from a distance and very driven by the balance sheet and a control freak.” – Christian Horner, quoted by Zing Tsjeng [28:44] “His statements no longer trigger any emotions in me because he shoots in all directions.” – Toto Wolff [29:03] Christian is “like a yapping terrier dog.” – Toto Wolff [29:05]

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7. F1's Commercial Explosion & The Netflix Effect

[30:09–36:38]

• Liberty Media acquires F1 (2017), ushering in new global marketing and the Netflix series Drive to Survive.
• The show transforms F1’s image, dramatically increasing audiences, especially among the young and women.

  “Toto has compared the show...to Keeping up with the Kardashians. And if that’s the case, then Toto probably is Kim. He is the breakout star.” – Zing Tsjeng [30:49]

• 2021: Introduction of spending cap helps drive up profits for team owners like Wolff, as does the sponsorship boom.
• Mercedes’s value soars (to $3.8B by 2023); Wolff’s net worth climbs to $2.5 billion.
• The notorious Abu Dhabi 2021 finale – controversy over Hamilton’s lost title and Wolff’s furious ("viral") outburst.

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8. Controversies, Criticism, and the Ethics of F1 Money

[33:08–35:54; 40:53–42:33]

• Examined as both a control freak (insisting on the same hotel room, driver, and lunch every race weekend) and as someone intensely driven by results.
• F1’s environmental impact and “sportswashing” are scrutinized (“carbon-spewing carnival” [41:03]), though Wolff claims the sport can be a role model for green innovation.
• Criticized for being a tax exile in Monaco, despite Mercedes F1’s UK base.

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9. Wealth, Philanthropy, Power & Legacy – The Scorecard

[38:42–45:00] WEALTH:

• Now worth ~$2.5B, though began from loss and near-poverty.

  Simon: “I’m going to give him a 3 out of 10 for wealth.” | Zing: “I would say four out of ten, talk about glamorous, sexy ways to make your money.” [40:14] CONTROVERSY:

• Scores low on wrongdoing; most criticism is of tax base and power.

  “Not that high...most of the team seem to respect him.” – Zing Tsjeng (scores: 3/10 each) [42:59] PHILANTHROPY:

• Some educational and inclusion charity work (Mary Bendett Foundation, Ignite with Lewis Hamilton), paid others’ school fees — but no notable personal donations.

  “I’m going to give him a 1 question mark.” – Simon Jack | Zing echoes [43:52] POWER & LEGACY:

• Shaped modern F1, built the dominant Mercedes team, became a media and meme star.

  “He will always be seen as the Alex Ferguson to Lewis Hamilton’s David Beckham.” – Simon Jack (scores: Simon 4/10, Zing 6/10) [44:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On racing risk:

  "It’s time to put my balls on the dashboard." – Toto Wolff, recounted by Simon Jack [01:44]

• On loss and motivation:

  “That moment of embarrassment, shame if you like… can be quite a motivating thing later in life.” – Simon Jack [04:45]

• On management style:

  “That position of team principal is a thing of the past… There is not that one guy… the board is divided by competency.” – Simon Jack, paraphrasing Wolff [24:19]

• On team rivalry:

  "Don't challenge me on this. You don't want to find out what I am capable of." – Toto Wolff, to drivers after race collision [26:18]

• On F1’s business model:

  “There isn’t a spare inch of anything that hasn’t got some global logo on it…” – Simon Jack [33:46]

• On becoming an F1 cultural icon:

  “He’s become a meme.” – Zing Tsjeng [44:51]

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Timeline & Timestamps for Key Segments

• Toto’s traumatic childhood & drive for control – [03:15–05:14]
• Discovery of racing / early mishaps – [05:46–07:46]
• Entry into venture capital & SMS.at deal – [11:16–14:40]
• 2009 Nurburgring crash – [19:19–20:40]
• Rise at Williams F1 & move to Mercedes – [21:10–23:54]
• Managing Mercedes and the Hamilton-Rosberg drama – [24:44–26:47]
• The Lewis Hamilton ‘divorce’ conversation – [26:20–26:47]
• F1, media, and the Netflix effect – [30:09–31:14]
• 2021 Abu Dhabi finale controversy – [32:36–32:49]
• Wealth, controversy, philanthropy, legacy ratings – [38:42–45:00]

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Final Reflections

Wolff’s journey is a story of hustle, risk, resilience, and calculated risk-taking — from navigating loss as a child to dominating the pinnacle of motor racing, while always blending business discipline with Absolute competitive drive. The episode is peppered with playful banter and insightful comparison, with the hosts openly weighing Wolff’s status: good, bad, or just another billionaire. The audience is invited to decide for themselves.

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Listener Verdict:

“Is he good, bad, or just another billionaire? What do you think of Toto Wolff?” – Simon Jack [45:00]

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Contact & Further Listening:
For feedback, impressions, or to nominate a billionaire:
Email: [e-mail]
Listen to past episodes (Elon Musk, Benetton, Oprah, more) at www.bbcworldservice.com/goodbadbillionaire

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Summary Compiled By:
BBC World Service, Good Bad Billionaire Podcast

Transcript

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[Zing Sing]

It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. The air is thick with the smell of pine trees and Petro. We're at a racetrack so infamous it's called the Green Hell.

[Simon Jack]

A tall man in a blue and white racing suit folds himself into his Porsche. Not any old Porsche. This car isn't actually street legal, it's designed for endurance and speed.

[Zing Sing]

He whispers to himself, it's time to

[Simon Jack]

put my balls on the dashboard as

[Zing Sing]

he starts the engine.

[Simon Jack]

In under 15 minutes, that man will be in an ambulance, unconscious. But in under 15 years, he'll be a billionaire.

[Zing Sing]

Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Each episode we pick a billionaire and find out how they made their money.

[Simon Jack]

We take them from zero to their first million and then from a million onto a billion.

[Zing Sing]

My name is Zing Sing and I'm a journalist, author and podcaster.

[Simon Jack]

And my name's Simon Jack and I'm the BBC's business editor.

[Zing Sing]

And that man with the distinctive accent so brilliantly reprised by Simon, sorry about that. He is Toto Wolff and you may know him from Netflix's show Drive to Survive where he became a main character of Formula One.

[Simon Jack]

He's loved by fans for his one liners, delivered in his deep Austrian deadpan, as you've already heard, and his fierce and passionate rivalries.

[Zing Sing]

But Toto is much more than just a TV personality. He's actually the most successful team principal in Formula One history. And if you don't know what that word means, it's basically the boss of a Formula One team. They run the team, they make the big decisions, they're responsible for the results on and off the track.

[Simon Jack]

He's also the chief executive and co owner of the Mercedes Formula One team.

[Zing Sing]

And that dual role makes him unique among the team principals in Formula One today. It has also made him a billionaire, currently worth two and a half billion dollars.

[Simon Jack]

Now, throughout his life he's mixed money and motorsport, using venture capital to fund his love of racing.

[Zing Sing]

But he's also gained a reputation for being a control freak and he has spoken about the scars and demons of his past.

[Simon Jack]

So what is it that drives Toto Wolff? Let's head back to the beginning to find out. Torga Christian Wolf was born in 1972 in Vienna, Austria. His mother was Polish and worked as an anesthesiologist. His father was Romanian. When Toto was young, he ran a very successful art transport freight company and

[Zing Sing]

they lived comfortably in an affluent neighborhood. And Toto and his younger sister went to a prestigious French school. In fact, Toto, get this, speaks an astounding six languages in total. French, Polish, German, Italian, Spanish and English. Wow. But when Toto was 8, everything about his life changed.

[Simon Jack]

Yes. Toto's father, age 30, was diagnosed with brain cancer. Then his business went, in Toto's words, belly up. And amid the family's health and financial turmoil, Toto's parents got divorced. Toto described the next decade as one of suffering for the family. It was formative, he said. I was 8 or 9 or 10 and I wanted to be in control and I wasn't. Remember that? Thought.

[Zing Sing]

They moved into a small apartment and one day Toto and his sister had to leave school in the afternoon because the tuition fees weren't paid. Toto said, how do you explain that to your friends? How do you explain that to your 10 year old sister? I have these moments in my mind so strongly, it's like an imprint. Toto and his sister thankfully were able to return to that school with help from their grandparents, where he wasn't the best in class, but he excelled in probabilities in mathematics. Something that we'll see will serve him very well in his financial career.

[Simon Jack]

Interesting, that moment of kind of embarrassment, shame if you like. And we've come across that before in some of our billionaires, can be quite a Motivating thing later in life.

[Zing Sing]

It's definitely formative, as Toto said himself.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. As his father's cancer progressed, Toto found himself taking on more caring responsibilities. And finally, after years of illness, his father died. Toto was 15, and he said he had a terrible guilt for the relief he felt. But he credits this formative period for making him resilient and determined.

[Zing Sing]

And in 1989, at the age of 17, Toto clearly felt perhaps a bit liberated by this. He took a road trip to Amsterdam with some friends and that would change his life. They borrowed a Peugeot 605 limousine and they tried to cover 200km every hour on the German autobahn. By the way, that's 124 miles per hour on the famous autobahns with no speed limit. So you can bet they were zooming along. And on the trip they made a pit stop in Germany at a motor racing complex called the Nurburgring to watch a friend compete in the Formula 3 championship.

[Simon Jack]

Toto's first time on a racetrack. And he instantly, he says, caught the bug. In Toto's words, he was captured by the feeling of controlling the uncontrollable, being able to ride that wild horse. That evening he went to a bar with some drivers and in his words, there was nothing else anymore. It's like an identity I got in that moment. He said to himself, I want to become a racing driver.

[Zing Sing]

But Toto was a little bit late. At 17, most professional drivers start as children with go karting and he had never done any of that. In fact, he'd actually failed his driving test the first time around. His own driving teacher even told him, you in cars, that's not going to be very good. Ouch. And perhaps his teacher was right. Toto crashed his first car, a Volkswagen Beetle, into a tree while racing through some woods on a rainy day.

[Simon Jack]

Boy racer.

[Zing Sing]

Boy racer. I actually don't even have my driving license yet. I know, I've tried.

[Simon Jack]

Say yeah, when are you going to be unleashed on the roads, do you think?

[Zing Sing]

Well, I'm trying to make some complex calculations in my head. Maybe Toto Wolff could help with this. Trying to figure out how long it would take for me to do all the lessons and pass my driving test versus how long self driving cars will get onto the roads here.

[Simon Jack]

Ah, good question.

[Zing Sing]

Because once that happens, will people need driving licenses?

[Simon Jack]

Maybe not. It gets harder to pass the older you get though. So if you're going to do Route 1, get on with it.

[Zing Sing]

Okay. I need to do it while my brain's still fresh.

[Simon Jack]

Toto, though, was determined to race. He saved up two birthdays and Christmas presents to pay for a place at the Walter Lechner Racing School at the Oesterreichring racetrack in Austria. It's now called the Red Bullring. But after learning to race, he still needed money. Racing is incredibly expensive, Toto. Toto has estimated a driver must be able to spend, get this, 8 million euros in total to make it into Formula 1 through the grades nowadays, that is. But even just starting out is eye watering expensive. He said, if somebody is talented, very talented, you probably need to spend a million euros in karting through junior, senior and international races. That's where Lewis Hamilton started in karting. In his words, you need to have a sugar daddy or a rich daddy.

[Zing Sing]

Toto had neither, so he needed to raise sponsorship. He gave a presentation to parents at his school on how they could invest in his career. And he raised enough to lease himself a racing car, a Sia Ibiza, and start competing in the junior formulas. Meanwhile, he had been accepted to Vienna University to study economics. So his plan was to study and race at the same time.

[Simon Jack]

That sounds like a cool thing to be at university. What are you doing this week? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm a racing driver.

[Zing Sing]

At the weekend I can't attend the lecture. Sorry, I'm racing.

[Simon Jack]

He spent three years competing in Formula Ford, which is kind of like the minor league of motors motorsport. And to make money during this time, he took a job handing out flyers for electronic shops. Wearing a gold cape and gold face paint, he said, it was so embarrassing because people recognized me, but I pushed through. I really needed the money.

[Zing Sing]

And during this time, he won a legendary endurance race, the 1994 Nurburgring 24 Hours. But Toto was no Lewis Hamilton. His racing teacher, Walter Lechner, told him that he was too slow for Formula One and that he should go and do something useful instead. He's also, it's important to note, probably a little bit too, to be a racer, particularly in F1. Some sources put Toto at 6, two others at 6.5. And that is quite large for a racing car.

[Simon Jack]

It is. And every single thing on a Formula One racing car has to be as light as possible and you've got to fit it all into quite a small space. So in a way, they're like mechanical jockeys. There are some big ones, but the engineering teams complain about having to accommodate a big driver. In 1994, at the peak of his junior career, disaster strikes. His sponsor pulled out after a series of high profile and fatal crashes over a few weeks involving Ayrton Senna, Roland Ratzenberger and Carl Wendlinger. I remember that really well because Ayrton Senna, he's such a hero in his home country of Brazil. They had three days of national mourning after he died. So he was a very big figure.

[Zing Sing]

And there was also a really brilliant film called Senna about this very moment.

[Simon Jack]

Amazing. Ayrton Senna, who was the undisputed God

[Zing Sing]

of the sport, the champion.

[Simon Jack]

The champion had a fatal crash, and it basically threw safety in Formula One into sharp relief. And you could perhaps understand why sponsors said, we don't want to be associated with a sport that looks so dangerous.

[Zing Sing]

Well, without cash or sponsors, Toto has to shelve his dream. He takes an internship at an investment bank in Warsaw. But he remembers crying his eyes out during his lunch breaks. He pushes through and he started to learn about investment banking in the markets. And in his words, the next dream started. Over the next two years, he would rise through the ranks of that bank.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. His next move was from banking into sales management at an Austrian steel company. After two years there, he spotted an opportunity to set up his own consultancy business, acting as an agent for the same steel company in Poland. And, you know, that would be advising on the strategy of how to buy, where to buy, where the markets are, what the production costs are, the whole ecosystem of steel, which is a truly international business. So probably pretty handy for his future skills. He built up a roster of clients before deciding to take a sabbatical in the US to figure out what he was going to do next.

[Zing Sing]

So Toto heads to San Francisco for a few months at probably exactly the right time. This was the late 1990s, and the dot com boom is well underway. And there he spots the growing potential in technology and decides to capitalize on it. Back in Vienna, he returns and in 1998, launches one of the first tech focused venture capital firms in Europe. And he launched it with his childhood friend Rene Berger. They name it March 15th, after the day it was established.

[Simon Jack]

Toto found the most popular website in Austria, then called sms, at which was a free text messaging service run by a teenager called Marcus. He drove to meet Marcus in a Porsche. Marcus said Toto could have half the business if he could find him investors and if Marcus could borrow the Porsche. It's quite an interesting little thumbnail sketch, isn't it, of the kind of impressionable young people who are running tech businesses. I tell you what, you can have half the business. You let me Drive your Porsche. So Toto found the investors. Marcus quickly sold his half for over $20 million. Toto kept hold of his stake, which in time would become much, much more valuable.

[Zing Sing]

For the next couple of years, Toto identified more early Austrian Internet and tech companies. He would raise funds for them by finding investors getting on the phone, cold calling potential deep pockets before selling them on for a profit.

[Simon Jack]

According to Toto, they didn't have a single failure because we never paid for any of these investments ourselves. I came in with no money. I'd say I'll raise money for you, make you a business plan and if we're successful I will become a shareholder, get shares for my trouble. So it was basically consulting for shares. If the company did well, we did well.

[Zing Sing]

How unusual is that kind of setup?

[Simon Jack]

I think it's pretty unusual that the people organizing the deals aren't required to put some of their own money in these days. In private equity funds you'll have limited partners, which are all the people who are investors in your fund and you'll have a general partner who's the person who runs it, like a Toto Wolff in this case. And that general partner would usually have to put in some money of their own because the other investors want them to have some skin in the game. This has got to matter to you financially. If you're going to ask me for money, I want to see the color of your money going in as well. So that quite unusual, I'd say.

[Zing Sing]

You've got to put your balls on the dashboard in Total wolves.

[Simon Jack]

Balls on the dashboard, yes. But you still got to be quite a good salesperson to drum up that kind of money. If you're cold calling people who are giving you money to invest in venture capital stuff, obviously it looks like such a no brainer to invest in technology looking back, but at that time it still would have required quite a lot of persuasive skills, quite a lot of charm. If you've seen him in interview, he's not the most, I wouldn't say the most charming guy. In a way he's certainly got a way about him. He's got a way about him, he's got a kind of gravitas and he's got a kind of directness about him which may have impressed people. But at that time, you know, I think people were looking for ways into technology and he was able to find, give them away.

[Zing Sing]

I think maybe the art of selling is very underrated in tech, don't you think? When we discussed Elon Musk in Our episode on him, you said that one of the most remarkable things about him wasn't the tech prowess, but the ability he had to sell people on his companies.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he was the greatest salesman, greatest fundraiser in the world ever is what some of people who know him have told me. I have to say my first job ever was selling advertising space in a computer magazine.

[Zing Sing]

Were you good at it?

[Simon Jack]

I was actually pretty good at it, I've got to say.

[Zing Sing]

You're wasted in journalism.

[Simon Jack]

But the thing was you go out and you basically sell someone a blank piece of paper. And it was at the time when all the early computer makers wanted to put their little adverts in these big magazines. It was a real scramble for it. It became a very profitable business, having computer magazines back in the gosh, I'm saying early 90s. But I tell you what, those sales skills about trying to pin someone down of incredibly valuable lessons, I think sometimes when you're trying to persuade someone to do an interview, those skills come right for you.

[Zing Sing]

Very true. And I think if you're trying to get a job in tech, being charming actually gets you quite a long way.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Anyway, in 2000, T Mobile, the mobile telecoms company, bought a chunk of that company, which he hung onto, remember sms at which had changed its name to UCP in what was at that time Austria's largest ever private equity transaction. And it wouldn't be the last time Toto made money from this company. Within two years of founding, March 15, Toto had made a profit of more than $30 million. So by the millennium, Toto's a multi millionaire, aged just 28.

[Zing Sing]

While his venture capital fund was growing that bank account, Toto had never quite lost his love for motorsport.

[Simon Jack]

And now he's got a few.

[Zing Sing]

Yeah, he does more than a few quid in fact. So he gets a call one day from an old racing driver friend who asked if he wanted to do a six hour race. After that, Toto realised he hadn't actually lost his driving skills, but as you say now, he had the money for it.

[Simon Jack]

So, age 30, he returned to racing part time, mainly with grand tourer cars. GT cars. These are kind of luxury, high performance vehicles. They're designed for fast but comfortable long distance driving. His first year back, he came sixth in the FIA Gran Turismo World Championship. A few years later, he won the Dubai 24 Hour race, a major round the clock race for both professional endurance drivers and a bucket list race for amateurs, so amateurs who've got the kit can enter. It's a bit like the Le Mans 24 hour race, but done in Dubai.

[Zing Sing]

And these are just races where you just race for 24 hours straight.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, you change drivers, sometimes the cars will break down, you have a bunch of mechanics on board. Like I say, it's a test of endurance both in driving and engineering terms.

[Zing Sing]

Yeah. And you just whiz around the same track for an entire day.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, through day and night. It used to be seen as a rather glamorous, romantic, cool thing.

[Zing Sing]

While Toto was also starting to, at this point, mix business with pleasure, in 2002 he started a new venture, co owning a racing driver management company with two time Formula one world champion Mika Hakkinen. There he looked after some young drivers who, in his words, drivers that were like me 10 years prior, had no means, so I was paying for them. This included the early career of a Finnish Formula one driver, Valtteri Bottas.

[Simon Jack]

He also had a boy of his own to look after at home, because in 2002 Toto's first son was born. He'd recently married a woman called Stephanie, though there's very little information available about that relationship. We know they also had a daughter together and were together for the best part of a decade, probably divorcing in the late 2000s.

[Zing Sing]

But let's get back to the money. And there was plenty more of it still to be made. In 2004, Toto and Renee founded another venture capital fund called March 16th. This time they focused on investing in medium sized industrial companies and listed companies, although still in the Internet and tech space, which was itself at the time maturing.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, this fund was a bit larger. It had a team of 27 people, offices in Vienna, Berlin, Zurich, Tel Aviv, Warsaw. That text messaging company we've mentioned twice already now called UCP, was sold to the American tech group Amdocs, at a value of 275 million. So well worth hanging onto that one.

[Zing Sing]

Yeah, well worth giving half a Porsche to a teenage boy.

[Simon Jack]

Boy, I bet the other guy's sore about that.

[Zing Sing]

Well, there's another investment worth mentioning. After that big payout, Toto acquired a 49 stake in German company HWA, which builds and races Mercedes cars in Germany's domestic touring series. Engineer Hans Werner Alfrecht, whom the company is named after, described Toto in the following words in German and I will absolutely butcher this. We say Erkan MDI Eich Schauen. He can see round corners when he makes a strategy. He is not only looking straightforward, he is also looking what is coming from the side. And HWA made him some Serious money. He helped to take it public with which earned him $85 million.

[Simon Jack]

So he's getting rich on some sort of technology stakes, which he's then using to fund his racing thing. So we now get to 2009. Toto's now 37 years old. He's come to the Nurburgring, the first track he'd ever stepped foot on, and the one that inspired him to race. Remember, it's nicknamed the Green Hell. It was actually taken off the grand prix circuit in 1976 after Austria's greatest racing driver, Niki Lauda, had a very near fatal crash. I remember that one pretty well as well. He got very badly burnt. Niki Lauda. But Toto was attempting to beat the lap record for the Nordschleife, the North Loop and the longest section, 13 miles long, with around 170 corners. That's the thing about the Nurburgring, it is much longer than your average Formula one track. It goes right through the forest. It's quite a thing.

[Zing Sing]

Well, quite a spectacle, yeah. Well, In a Porsche 911 RSR, he was attempting to beat a lap time of 7 minutes, 7 seconds for a Grand Tour of a car. And many friends, including Niki Lauda, told him it was was stupid. Or as Toto put it, you had to squeeze your ass cheeks and commit. That is a real Toto Wolfism, I think. On his warm up lap, Toto beat the record by almost five seconds. But he felt there was something wrong with the car and the tyres didn't feel quite right. But when it came to it, he pushed the worry out of his mind and he says, this is where I broke my rule to take the calculated risk.

[Simon Jack]

His tyre blew out in the most dangerous part of the track and he hit the guardrail at 180 miles an hour. The car spun 180 degrees. It smashed into steel barriers and recorded an impact impact of 27g, 27 times the force of gravity. When the car finally stopped rolling, Toto got out of the car, took off his gloves, stepped over the guardrail and then collapsed. He was found on the grass and only regained consciousness in the ambulance.

[Zing Sing]

He had severe concussion and a broken vertebrae. At the hospital, incidentally, the same one Niki Lauda had received what people thought would be his last rites. Toto initially thought that he was paralyzed. He said in that moment, I said to myself, no more competitive racing. But he had no major lasting issues, thankfully, except that the crash had dislodged his olfactory nerve, so he couldn't smell or taste anything for Six months.

[Simon Jack]

I think that is quite a getaway. But the crash did bring him something. After his accident, he got a call from a Scottish driver called Susie Stoddart, who was racing cars for hwa. She called to wish him well on behalf of hwa Mercedes drivers just passing on the respect from everyone in the organization. At that point, they didn't know each other that well, but as Susie remembered, it was supposed to be a 10 minute call. It lasted an hour. And after eight months of dating, they got engaged and married two years later and went on to have a son in 2017. So something good came out of the crash.

[Zing Sing]

Something very good came out of the crash. I mean, it also meant that Toto stopped racing himself, but instead he got more involved in the business side of racing and that will be absolutely pivotal to how he becomes a billionaire. Seven months after the crash, he bought a 16% stake in Williams racing team, getting a seat on the board. And Williams was a pioneering team in Formula One. They held multiple world championships in the 80s and 90s, but they had been struggling to recapture that old dominance.

[Simon Jack]

And although his role was initially financial, it did bring him closer into the sport that he loved. Of course, in 2011, he advised Williams on their IPO, their sale of shares. And by July 2012, he increased his involvement by becoming an executive director, senior leadership role focused on the overall business, operational, strategic management of the team, that kind of stuff. A role just below or alongside what's known as the team principle.

[Zing Sing]

Principle. His wife Susie had also recently signed up with Williams as a development driver. I think these are roles where you're testing the cars to make them better for the actual drivers. And that year, Williams got its first race win in eight years at the Spanish Grand Prix. And to celebrate, Toto and Susie ate tacos on the beach. And she told Toto, remember this moment where Grand Prix winners for the first

[Simon Jack]

time and success gets you noticed. Just after becoming executive director at Williams, he got a call from Daimler, the parent company of Mercedes Benz. Mercedes had entered Formula One a few years earlier, but Daimler wanted to know why they weren't doing very well. Toto told them they needed to spend more money. Mercedes was spending less than Williams. And you've got to remember, mainly Formula One is a competition between two teams of engineers. And whoever's got the best engineers tends winning. I would say 95% of success is having the fastest car. The other 5% is having the best driver. And they will still say it's still worth paying tens of millions to a really good driver because that extra 0.1 of a second on a lap can make the difference between winning and losing. So spending money, this is a mind bogglingly expensive sport to get into.

[Zing Sing]

I mean, you only need to look at the number of people in the pit crew to know how much money you're spending on every single one of those top quality people in the pit.

[Simon Jack]

That's why they need so many sponsors. So all the drivers are actually plastered with sponsorship, aren't they?

[Zing Sing]

Well, they needed money to do all this stuff and by this point Toto had a lot of it. He became an owner of the Mercedes Formula One team, buying a 30% stake which Forbes estimated cost him $50 million. And at the same time they offered him a job. So within months of joining Williams, Toto then moved on to Mercedes, becoming their executive director. Bad news for Williams. Toto was hesitant about the offer at first. He said, I gave my heart to Williams. I was really struggling with the decision.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Toto though, joined Mercedes around the same time as Niki Lauda, legendary racing driver, almost died, as we've already said. Niki Lauda became non executive chairman and a co owner with a 10% stake. So he's rubbing shoulders with his old friend there. Toto took charge of the commercial side while ex McLaren technical director Paddy Lowe took over the technical operation. And together this team reshaped Mercedes. This was a new collaborative management style, according to Toto. He said that position of team principal is a thing of the past. It's like any other major corporation. There is not that one guy, the board who's making all the decisions is divided by competency. However, since joining he's widely, he's widely been called team principal and holds the CEO title. He may think that that model is dead, but there's no one who embodies it more more obviously than Toto Wolff himself.

[Zing Sing]

Absolutely not. And if you watch drive to survive, that is very obvious. He is very much the guy in charge. Well, at the point that Toto joined Mercedes, Lewis Hamilton was already their driver alongside Nico Rosberg. And they say a Formula one driver, driver's biggest competition is his teammate. And that was absolutely true with Lewis and Nico. In 2016, on the last lap of the Austrian Grand Prix, Lewis and Nico collided due to competitive driving and that cost Mercedes first and second place.

[Simon Jack]

Well, that is a kind of real. No, no. And it's a really interesting thing about Formula one because some team principals will say we've essentially got team orders. You go first and you go second and they'll sort of plan that in advance. Other teams will say, the people here want to see the two people in the best car race each other. That's what it's all about. So there's always been this kind of dance, and the spectators don't like team order because it all feels like it's been planned. They want to see people racing against each other.

[Zing Sing]

They want to see real competition. And actually, a really good fictional portrayal of this sort of rivalry can be found in the Brad Pitt movie F1.

[Simon Jack]

I haven't seen that. Is it any good?

[Zing Sing]

It is, actually. And I say this as someone who, as we've established, doesn't even know how to drive. It is a great movie. It's sort of a bit like Top Gun, but in cars.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, okay, there we go. There we go. Recommendation there. Anyway, after they knock each other out, Toto felt he had to show the organization, I wouldn't allow that behavior anymore. After the race, he made both drivers visit the engineers, telling them, look at everyone here in the room. Imagine everyone back at home and their families, and realize how you were making us look. Toto said. He used some harsh words I cannot repeat. I said, don't challenge me on this. You don't want to find out what I am capable of menacing.

[Zing Sing]

Well, after this, the relationship between Toto and Lewis Hamilton was understandably frosty. But that Christmas, Toto hosted a party in his home in Oxford. In the kitchen, he cornered Lewis and told him, even though Susie and I might disagree about something, it would never come into my mind to divorce. And it's the same with you, Lewis. I don't want a divorce. You're the best driver. They spent five hours talking it out, and by the end, Toto said, their relationship had gone from purely business to a friendship.

[Simon Jack]

Worth talking these things out? Definitely.

[Zing Sing]

Under Toto's leadership, and with Lewis behind the wheel, Mercedes became an unstoppable force. Between 2014 and 2021, they took home the constructors championship eight years in a row. That is the record for the most number of consecutive wins. And Lewis took home the Drivers Championship seven years in a row, which means he jointly holds a record with Michael Schumacher. And with every win, by the way, Mercedes was also earning millions in prize money because this is also a very, very financially incentivized sport. In 2020, the team earned over $70 million.

[Simon Jack]

I'd be very surprised if $70 million covered their costs for that season. And worth saying that you talked about the Constructors Championship is very important for car manufacturers. It's a shop wind engineering prestige because actually some of the technology that gets developed on Formula one makes it into road cars eventually.

[Zing Sing]

It is a huge commercial saying, well, you can't quite make Formula one, but you can drive one of our cars for consumers.

[Simon Jack]

And as Mercedes success grew, so did Toto's reputation. He's steering them to win after win after win. It's worth taking a moment to describe an F1 season. The whole shebang in this caravan of parts and people moves every week from country to country. It's a bit like a sort of touring engineering circus. Toto said says he'll fly around 600 hours during the racing season and can spend 300 nights out of the year in hotels.

[Zing Sing]

So team principals are in fierce competition, but they also spend so much of their time together, it's sort of like a weird bunker mentality. They're also constantly interviewed by the press about each other. Toto has said it's an alpha male thing. You want to beat the other guy.

[Simon Jack]

For years, Toto's arch rival was Red Bull Racing's then team principal, Christian Horner. In 2021, Toto sent an all staff email from the engineers to the cook. They should find their opposite number at Red Bull and look at them every day. Put the picture right in front of you so you know whom to beat. What are the cooks saying? You know, I gotta make a better egg.

[Zing Sing]

Well, Christian Horner has said that Toto is, in his words, attacks evader in Monaco, who runs his team from a distance and someone very driven by the balance sheet and a control freak. In response, Toto said his statements no longer trigger any emotions in me because it shoots in all the direction. Toto, in fact, has compared Christian to a yapping terrier dog.

[Simon Jack]

Ooh, ouch.

[Zing Sing]

I can't imagine Christian Horner was very happy about that.

[Simon Jack]

But it is true that Toto is the only team principal who's also a significant co owner of the team. But Toto insists, I would give up every single penny of the profits to win. He does admit to having a desire for control. He likes to stay in the same hotel room for each race and be picked up by the same driver in the same car wherever he lands. And he always eats grilled chicken and veg vegetables for lunch and dinner, preferably alone when traveling.

[Zing Sing]

Did he mention if there was any seasoning at all on the chicken and veg?

[Simon Jack]

He didn't, but I suspect not much.

[Zing Sing]

I suspect salt and pepper only. Yeah, and even then at a push. Well, let's get back to the money because some big changes at Formula One were about to help Toto's journey to a billion. In 2017, Liberty Media bought Formula One for approximately $8 billion. And in the process, finally pushing Formula One's owner, Bernie Eccleston out. You can listen to our episode on Bernie for the full story. Now, this deal was the start of a new era for the sport that had been declining in popularity.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, that's right after the Bernie Ecclestone years. Because Bernie Eccleston turned it from a pretty marginal sport into this world beating. Every country wanted to have a Grand Prix. It was kind of international prestige, it

[Zing Sing]

was sexy, it was glamorous, it was

[Simon Jack]

sexy, it was glamorous. But it had begun to just sort of plateau or decline in popularity. But then its profile was about to get a boost because in 2019, Netflix released Drive to Survive, a documentary following the team's each race season. And it brought a new young and female audience to sport because it reframed Formula One from a technical sport into more of a human drama. The show proved so popular, it drew record crowds to races. More races were added to the schedule, including Miami and Las Vegas.

[Zing Sing]

Toto has compared the show, this is interesting, to Keeping up with the Kardashians. And if that's the case, then Toto probably is Kim. He is the breakout star. You know, like Kim, he's got big main character energy. His wife Susie is also regularly featured on the show. She actually was the brand ambassador of Mercedes in 2016. And if you watch Drive to Survive, it does sometimes feel more like a reality show than straight documentary.

[Simon Jack]

In 2021, Formula One introduced a cost cap which limited the amount of money a team can spend during a calendar year to $145 million. I told you it was more than 70 million that they won in that season. And that's quite interesting because up to that point, the bigger the company, the more they could spend. You've got a massive advantage, the more

[Zing Sing]

money you can throw at it.

[Simon Jack]

It's a bit like what's happened in football, where real mad seem to be able to spend whatever they want and therefore they win the Spanish league every year. Apart from Barcelona when they won, of course. Anyway, meanwhile, Red Bull's young teammate, a guy called Max Verstappen, was proving himself to be a once in a generation driver. And after a competitive and divisive season, Max clinched the championship from Lewis at the final race in Abu Dhabi after a very controversial call by the then race director, Michael Massi. It's too complicated to Go into. But basically Lewis Hamilton was miles in the lead. And then there was an incident when they slow all the cars down and bring on a safety car which kind of keeps everyone in the same position. And then safety car goes off and they start racing again. A poor decision says everyone. And it denied Lewis Hamilton a record breaking 8th world championship title. And it was later deemed human error by the fia, the governing body. And Toto said the best man that day didn't win. And it's still something that stings if you're Lewis Hamilton. That's probably one of the biggest disappointments of your entire life and you can actually win.

[Zing Sing]

Watch Toto's reaction from Drive to survive on YouTube. There's actually a very viral clip where he kind of absolutely loses it and starts shouting at Michael over the headphones and saying, you know, Michael, this isn't right. It isn't right.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, that was a huge controversy actually.

[Zing Sing]

And this brought an end to Mercedes winning streak with Christian Horner's Red Bull taking the lead for the next few seasons. And that meant less prize money for Toto. But that didn't really matter because of the increase in popularity of the sport overall, because more eyeballs on Formula One meant more sponsorship money.

[Simon Jack]

Mercedes main sponsor is Petronas, which is Malaysia's national state owned oil and gas company. They're also sponsored by Ineos, which is a petrochemicals company founded by one of our other billionaires, Sir Jim Ratcliffe. INEOS bought into the team in 2020. They are one third equal shareholders with Daimler and Toto Wolff himself. And there are 20 other sponsor brands. There's so many of them. One of the first things you notice about Formula One if you're new to the the sport, is the amount of advertising that is on trackside, on the driver's clothing, on the cars. There isn't a spare inch of anything that hasn't got some global logo on it because it's a big global sport.

[Zing Sing]

And there have been, you know, that is some criticism that Formula One and racing in general is sort of a means for these companies, some of whom can be quite controversial, like petrochemical companies, to essentially sports wash their reputation.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. And if you remember what happened during the Qatar World cup, there was a lot of talk about sportswashing then, which is saying that, you know, in countries which have questionable human rights records, for example, that the awarding of major sporting events to them helps them bolster their global prestige in a way that some people feel uncomfortable with. The same accusation has been Leveled at Formula One. Formula One has always maintained that bringing the sport to these regions opens them up to the world and forces engagement on critical issues. But lots of countries, as a way of putting themselves on the map, just like the Olympics or the World cup, they want a Formula One race, so these issues emerge.

[Zing Sing]

But the difference is, is that once you get a Formula one race, you're usually hosting that Formula One race for a long time, unlike the Olympics.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. And what's also interesting about it is that there was a time when Formula one was seen as literally the kind of apogee, the zenith of sort of gas guzzling petrol cars. And if you think about the emissions, not only on the cars around the track, but mo entire shebang from country to country, that became a big issue. They started like an E series where they had electric cars rather than these highly tuned petrol cars, like all green stuff. It seems to have fallen slightly further down the agenda. Who knows why that is?

[Zing Sing]

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I also feel like with drivers like Lewis Hamilton, who kind of represent this kind of new multicultural generation of young drivers, there's a sense where, you know, the PR image of Formula One has slightly changed to become more progressive. So it's allowed some things like the environmental impact to be slightly glossed over.

[Simon Jack]

Maybe. Maybe it's. What's going to be very interesting is that if you talk to the engineers, they'll say that the drivers are only a small part of it. It may not be long before we have, I don't know, Meta versus OpenAI or whatever. It'll be two artificial intelligence racing against each other and we'll take out the humans completely. It wouldn't be a very good TV series though, would it?

[Zing Sing]

No, it wouldn't. It would be you. You can't really have Toto Wolff shouting at an AI in the same way you can have him shouting at Lewis Hamilton.

[Simon Jack]

Anyway, let's get back to why we're here, which is the money.

[Zing Sing]

By 2023, Mercedes Formula One's value was estimated at $3.8 billion. That's a 274% rise from 2019. And this made it the second most valuable team in the sport behind Ferrari, which, you know, occupies that top spot due to a long established heritage. It's also worth noting at this point that Williams had the lowest value valuation at 725 million. So it's actually a pretty good move by total to jump shrewd. Interestingly, Forbes actually credits the increase in value largely to the rule changes that reduced Spending, thereby forcing teams to become

[Simon Jack]

more profitable because the temptation would have been to spend every last penny on trying to win. When that is capped, you become more profitable. So that's an interesting. That's. I find that very interesting. And let's not forget, of course, the important bit about this is that Toto owns a third of the team. So in 2023, Forbes estimated he had become a billionaire worth $1.6 billion.

[Zing Sing]

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[Zing Sing]

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[Simon Jack]

It's time to score Toto on our billionaire categories. This is the bit of the pod where we basically look at a few categories like wealth, controversy, philanthropy, the power and legacy they leave behind and score them for fun between 0 to 10. And we always start with wealth because that's kind of why we're here. What do you reckon?

[Zing Sing]

Well, at the start of 2024, Toto signed a three year deal to stay on as team principal and CEO of Mercedes Formula One. But just a few weeks later, Lewis Hamilton announced that he would be moving to Ferrari once the season was over. Talk about drama. And this was right at the start of the season. So they had a whole, whole year working together knowing that this was going to happen.

[Simon Jack]

Hard to do in a very pressured situation knowing that you've basically got divorced and you've got a whole year to live together.

[Zing Sing]

Makes for awkward water cooler chat.

[Simon Jack]

It does.

[Zing Sing]

Lewis leaving Mercedes hasn't actually put much of a dent in Toto's overall wealth. He's currently worth two and a half billion dollars according to Forbes. And you know, he did find success in a sport where the barrier to entry is millions of dollars high.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, he was at a posh school, but he was almost, almost had to leave because his school fees weren't paid. But his grandparents did step in to pay for him.

[Zing Sing]

Yeah, but he does come from quite a difficult background. You know, his father died. It's not exactly a smooth sailing road for Toto Wolff.

[Simon Jack]

No. And we also look at how they spend it. He travels between races in a private jet, of course. He clocks up 800 hours in the air last year. And to be fair, he's probably right when he said it's impossible to do what I do without the plane.

[Zing Sing]

Yeah. You wouldn't catch him in economy class, would you?

[Simon Jack]

No. Or even on commercial. I think it would be hard to do so on wealth. Two and a half billion. It's not top of the tree by our standards. So I'm going to give, I'm going to give him a 3 out of 10 for wealth.

[Zing Sing]

I feel like I have to score him slightly higher because talk about glamorous, sexy ways to make your money. I mean, Formula one racing is it? So I would say four out of ten. Although I do slightly worry that there are some investment bankers listening to this podcast thinking if Total Wolff could drive cars for a living, maybe after, I could do it, guys. Maybe don't think about quitting your day job.

[Simon Jack]

Well, yeah, remember he got a very lucky escape from a life threatening crash. Three for me, four for you. Controversy.

[Zing Sing]

He does occupy that very unique role as both team principal and co owner. So, you know, there are critics who argue he's got an outsized influence in the way Formula one runs.

[Simon Jack]

But you need these characters, don't you? Every sport needs them. Like kind of high profile manager, like an Alex Ferguson. You know, you need people who generate headlines, create drama and that's one positive controversy. Just like is he a controversial character in the way he runs things? There is of course controversy about, you know, environmental impact sports washing that we've already discussed. Some people will say it is a carbon spewing carnival which cavorts around the world in a most damaging way. Other people think it's like really cool. So I mean, it's controversial in itself.

[Zing Sing]

I find this personally Quite fascinating. Formula 1 has the goal to become net zero by 2030. Not sure how well they're doing on that, but Toto argues that Formula One can show a blueprint for travel and transport by getting the smallest possible footprint.

[Simon Jack]

I mean, it is worth remembering the emissions from the cars themselves are less than 1% of the sport's total footprint. Moving that circus around the world is most of it so hard pushed to say that Formula One is some kind of pioneer in reducing carbon emissions as a sport.

[Zing Sing]

Well, you would hope that the whole traveling circus doesn't all fly by private jet.

[Simon Jack]

And remember another thing, criticism that Christian Horner made of him, he manages from a distance. He's a tax exile in Monaco. Not the first rich guy to end up being tax resident in Monaco where they have no income tax, by the way.

[Zing Sing]

So it's nothing illegal, but it is, you know, controversial.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah.

[Zing Sing]

Especially because the Mercedes team officers are actually in the uk and he said in the past he lives in Oxford for work and travels back home on the weekends.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, add all that up and give him a controversy score of, oh, I

[Zing Sing]

would say not that high. To be honest, when you look at what he's done, he doesn't seem to have screwed anyone over personal in his rise to a billion dollars. And I don't know if this is maybe the way drive to survive puts it, but most of the team seem to respect him. You know, Christian Horner, while he was still at Red Bull, grudgingly respected him. I would say. Three out of ten.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, I agree with you. Three out of ten. Philanthropy. What's the giving record like?

[Zing Sing]

Well, he's on the board of a foundation called the Mary Bendett Foundation. That's a charity that helps disadvantaged children which was founded in the memory of one of his childhood friends.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Toto and his uncle have also paid fees for students former school who weren't able to afford it. Remember that? His own incident, he said so that no child would end up in the situation my sister and I had.

[Zing Sing]

And also him and Lewis Hamilton, who is, by the way, still the first and only black driver in Formula one history. They launched a charitable initiative called Ignite to support greater diversity and inclusion in motorsport. But when it comes to big donations from Toto himself, he is sadly lacking.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, we can't find any public record of big personal donations, unless of course, he's done it in secret. Toto, you've got our email address if you want to let us know. So we'll give him. I'm going to give him a 1 question mark.

[Zing Sing]

A 1 question mark. I like that. I'll give him a 1 question mark, too.

[Simon Jack]

Power and legacy. He, I mean, clearly he's enormously powerful within the sport. He's helped shape the future of Formula one.

[Zing Sing]

I mean, he's also a celebrity.

[Simon Jack]

They set records at Mercedes together, didn't they, him and Lewis Hamilton. So in terms of legacy, in terms of the annals of the sport, I think he will always be seen as the Alex Ferguson to Lewis Hamilton's David Beckham or something like that, and the ruler of a very successful dynasty. But they don't last forever. Williams once was a big dynasty, then it wasn't. You know, these things come and go, so I'm not sure how much legacy he will have. You know, some rich guy enjoys Formula one.

[Zing Sing]

Stop presses.

[Simon Jack]

Stop press. I'm going to give him a four for power legacy. I think he'll be remembered as a great character of the sport.

[Zing Sing]

I think I'm gonna score him slightly higher only because I think I've been somewhat radicalized on this by the comments that people leave on videos of him on YouTube.

[Simon Jack]

Oh, yeah.

[Zing Sing]

If you look at the way people respond to his character, it's almost like he's become a meme. So I think for that I'll have to give him maybe a six out of ten.

[Simon Jack]

Okay, fair enough. Six for you, four for me. So is he good, bad, or just another billionaire? What do you think of Toto Wolff? Email us.

[Zing Sing]

And if you want to also voice note us your best Toto Wolff impression, please feel free to go ahead.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, gotta be better than mine.

[Zing Sing]

And thank you, Devi from Brunei and Ian from Lay On Sea for suggesting Toto. He is a real character.

[Simon Jack]

No. Great suggestion. Thanks for that.

[Zing Sing]

A listener has been in touch to say hello, Zing and Simon Emmanuel, all the way from Kenya, and I'm a really, really big fan of your podcast. Thanks for listening, Emmanuel. I've been following this podcast from the very beginning and I love the show. Mostly listening when doing house chores and walking to work. Currently just listened to Hattie Green and she should be regarded as the queen of Wall street and accorded the same respect as Warren Buffett. I agree. My favorite Chuck Feeney, who made money and gave it all out. I aspire to do the same. Make money to help people and not hoard it all to myself. Watch out for me. If Good, bad billionaire is still on air, I think we should do a running tally of the number of people who've assured us they're going to end up on the show.

[Simon Jack]

Well, good luck with that one. Emmanuel, thanks for getting in touch. And Kaima emailed with a similar ambition. She says Honestly, I'm in love with your podcast. Thank you. You guys are doing a great job. Every single time I listen to an episode while commuting to school and work, I left super inspired. Your podcast cultivates the spirit ambition to become anyone I want to be and to become someone bigger and more powerful. Despite my background, I've heard countless stories of people going from rags to riches, people such as Oprah, and how they worked harder than the average person, knocking on every single door and pulling luck onto their side. I hope this podcast lives on for the next 10 to 15 years to witness me featured on it. Coming from the streets of Tanzania in Africa, I believe I can do just as the rest of your featured business billionaires have. I'm going to work harder than any human being fueled by inspiration from your show. Please keep on inspiring us. Well gosh, good luck Kaima. Thank you for getting in touch.

[Zing Sing]

We hope you get there too.

[Simon Jack]

We hope we're on air for another 10 to 15 years. The amount of new billionaires being created, we've got a 5050 chance.

[Zing Sing]

Yeah, I would say even higher.

[Simon Jack]

Maybe, maybe higher.

[Zing Sing]

So we're actually going to take a break for a few weeks, but we will be back with even more billionaires.

[Simon Jack]

In the meantime, we have over 80 episodes exploring the lives of the rich, from celebrities to CEOs. And thank you for your suggestions of billionaires for us to cover too. We do read them and some of them may well turn up in our next season.

[Zing Sing]

Now if you want to get in touch, email goodbadbillionairebc.com or drop us a text or WhatsApp to 001-917-686-1176 to tell us what you think. And yes, we will be back with more billionaires, both good and bad, later in the year. So make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening to this to get new episodes as soon as they drop Good Bad

[Simon Jack]

Billionaire is a BBC World Service podcast produced by Hannah Hufford. The researcher is Maria Noyen, the editor is Paul Smith and it's a BBC

[Zing Sing]

Studios production for the BBC World Service. The Senior Commissioning Producer is Sarah Green and the Commissioning Editor is John Manell.

[Simon Jack]

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[Zing Sing]

With Grainger, you can be confident you

[Simon Jack]

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