Weekend listening: The Interface

Summary

Good Bad Billionaire: "The Interface" – Episode Summary

Podcast: Good Bad Billionaire (BBC World Service)
Special Episode: The Interface (BBC Tech Podcast, Ep.1 Sampler)
Date: February 14, 2026
Hosts: Simon Jack, Zing Tsjeng
Guest Segment Hosts: Thomas Germain, Karen Hao, Nicky Wolfe

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Overview

In this bonus episode, Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng introduce listeners to The Interface, a new BBC tech podcast exploring how modern technology and tech billionaires are influencing society, privacy, culture, and even politics.

The episode, hosted by Thomas Germain, Karen Hao, and Nicky Wolfe, dives into the real-world impact of tech on everyday lives—covering surveillance concerns with smart doorbells, the US TikTok takeover and its implications, and the personal feud between the founders of OpenAI and Anthropic that continues to define the AI landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Doorbell Surveillance & 'Search Party' Ads (00:26–14:49)

• Super Bowl Ad Controversy

  • Ring's new "Search Party" feature (publicized in a high-profile Super Bowl ad) lets users activate a neighborhood-wide search for lost dogs, by turning on all connected doorbells' cameras.
  • Privacy Concerns: This functionality, though presented as beneficial, triggered widespread backlash due to its surveillance implications.
  • Viral Response: The visual of houses lighting up their cameras en masse immediately raised alarms about mass surveillance, particularly in an environment of heightened fears around law enforcement overreach and ICE activity.
  • Quote:
    • Karen Hao: "This literally showed all of the homes suddenly lighting up and scanning the streets with blue light to find a dog. And in a moment right now, where so much of the US has ICE on the top of their minds... this ad has gone instantly viral in the wrong direction for the company.” (05:19)

• Ring's Law Enforcement Ties

  • Past Ring partnerships with US police allowed warrantless access to footage, which the company eventually scaled back after controversy.
  • Federal agencies, including ICE, have been known to leverage similar surveillance tech, and companies like Palantir and Flock enable massive data-sharing networks.
  • Quote:
    • Thomas Germain: "These aren't hypothetical concerns... Ring partnered with police departments all over the United States... as a tool to set up police surveillance… [police] could get access to camera footage from people's houses without a warrant." (06:51)

• Opt-Out Feature & Consent

  • The "Search Party" feature is on by default; users must opt-out if they don’t want their cameras participating.
  • Quote:
    • Nicky Wolfe: "Because it's opt-out rather than opt-in, that's not even a question we're being asked." (12:45)

• Scale and Global Trends

  • With millions of Ring cameras globally, such networks represent potentially the world’s largest private surveillance system.
  • Palantir, a key government contractor, underpins much of this infrastructure and now operates internationally, including in the UK.

• Ring’s Response

  • Ring emphasizes:
    • "Search Party" currently recognizes only dogs.
    • Human facial recognition ("familiar faces") is optional.
    • Video-sharing is never automatic, no ICE partnership, data shared only when legally required. (10:47–11:21)

• Tradeoffs for Users

  • The real benefit: genuine safety and convenience for some users (e.g., disabled relatives).
  • The real risk: loss of control and unknown future uses of stored video data.
  • Quote:
    • Thomas Germain: "You can think about your data. Maybe no one's doing anything bad with it right now, but the fact that it exists means that someday in the future it could be used for a purpose that you don't like or you're not comfortable with." (12:04)

• Practical Digital Hygiene Tips

  • Users should review device privacy settings, periodically check what features are enabled, and opt-out if uncomfortable.
  • Quote:
    • Karen Hao: “After this episode, I'm immediately going to [...] look at my two technology objects in my house.” (15:20)

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2. TikTok Takeover and Algorithmic Power (17:45–28:43)

• US Government Intervention

  • ByteDance was forced to sell TikTok's US operations to a consortium including Oracle (Larry Ellison), MGX (Abu Dhabi), and others due to security, privacy, and “Chinese government influence” concerns.
  • TikTok’s US app is now run by these American/foreign companies as of January 2026.

• Significance for Everyone

  • Even non-users are affected: TikTok is the "engine room" of online culture, setting trends that ripple across the internet and offline life.
  • Quote:
    • Thomas Germain: "TikTok is, I think, without a doubt, like the sun at the center of the solar system of the Internet... It's the place where conversations start and then branch out into other parts of the Internet and then leak into the real world." (19:51)

• Algorithm Retraining & Early Glitches

  • As part of the new ownership, the TikTok algorithm is being retrained—ostensibly to sever "Chinese" influence.
  • Initial rollout glitches led to claims of censorship (e.g., Democrat videos getting zero views, “forbidden” phrases like "Epstein" not allowed), but TikTok claimed a data center power outage during a US snowstorm was responsible, not deliberate censorship.
  • Anxiety persists that the new US-aligned owners could manipulate the platform in favor of political allies.

• Comparisons to Twitter/X

  • The precedent of Elon Musk’s post-acquisition Twitter—perceived political boosting and decline in trust—was cited as an example of the risks inherent when social platforms become "engine rooms" for culture, then come under new ideologically motivated management.

• Opaque Algorithmic Influence

  • The core issue is user blindness: algorithmic power shapes what people see, but the criteria and priorities are never transparent.
  • Quote:
    • Thomas Germain: "You'll never know because the algorithm is a total mystery to people who are using the app." (28:43)

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3. The AI Chatbot Battle: OpenAI vs. Anthropic (28:43–37:33)

• Anthropic’s Chatbot Ad & OpenAI’s Response

  • Anthropic ran playful Super Bowl ads for its chatbot Claude, promising “no ads in our AI” (contrasting OpenAI’s incoming ad model).
  • The ads lampooned AI as a helpful personal assistant—then slyly mocked competitors who’d inject ads.
  • Sam Altman (OpenAI CEO) responded angrily on social media, calling the ads “seriously dishonest” and leveling personal and corporate insults toward Anthropic.
  • Quote:
    • Karen Hao: "This deeply triggered Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI—he tweets out this really long, dramatic essay...and he just like insults Anthropic with like more and more intense insults." (31:04)

• The Founders’ Feud & Its Industry Impact

  • Anthropic was founded by defectors from OpenAI, led by Dario Amodei, who left due to philosophical and personal disagreements with Sam Altman and OpenAI’s direction.
  • This ongoing, deeply personal beef accelerated ChatGPT's rushed launch in 2022, as OpenAI hurried to beat Anthropic to market, even using an unfinished model to do so.
  • Quote:
    • Karen Hao: “This literally is the beef of the century, because this is the beef that is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.” (02:01, 34:49)

• Real-World Implications

  • High-stakes competition affects product launches, innovation speed, and even user experience (e.g., OpenAI’s ‘code orange’ reaction resulting in a more addictive model—spurring reports of “AI psychosis” among users).
  • The rivalry, driven as much by personal animosity as business logic, will continue to determine how millions of people interact with AI and what features or risks proliferate.
  • Quote:
    • Karen Hao: "A huge component of the moves these companies make...is because these individuals hate each other." (35:50–37:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Who could object to lost dogs? But the functionality of this, the potential for this to be used for other things...”
  – Nicky Wolfe (06:09)

• “Ring is millions and millions and millions more cameras. Like, this is the largest private camera network in the world.”
  – Karen Hao (08:14)

• "It’s like other people are deciding [if you’re being surveilled]."
  – Thomas Germain (13:06)

• "How much privacy are you willing to sacrifice for convenience?"
  – Nicky Wolfe (13:20)

• "TikTok is, I think, without a doubt, like the sun at the center of the solar system of the Internet."
  – Thomas Germain (19:51)

• “You think that this industry is primarily driven just by profit and business competition, but actually a huge, huge component ... is because these individuals hate each other.”
  – Karen Hao (35:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | [02:01] | Doorbell Surveillance (Ring ‘Search Party’ Ad) | 02:01–14:49 | | [17:45] | TikTok Takeover & Algorithmic Power | 17:45–28:43 | | [28:43] | AI Chatbot Beef: Anthropic vs OpenAI | 28:43–37:33 |

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Final Thoughts

The Interface delivers a sharp, sometimes humorous but deeply informed dissection of the contemporary tech landscape—balancing explanatory journalism, expert skepticism, and wry cultural commentary. The episode underscores how issues of privacy, surveillance, and corporate rivalry among tech titans are not distant dramas, but forces that shape what billions of people see, do, and experience every day.

Listeners are left to ask: How comfortable are you with the tradeoffs you’re making in the digital world—and who’s really calling the shots behind the conveniences you enjoy?

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For more conversations like these, follow The Interface on BBC or your chosen podcast app.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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We're right in the middle of the season digging into the lives of the world's richest and most powerful people. And we wanted to bring you some extra bonus weekend listening.

If you're curious about how today's tech billionaires are shaping the world around us, we think you'll enjoy the Interface, a brand new weekly tech podcast from the.

BBC on Good Bad Billionaire. We've covered some of the biggest names in tech, people like Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman and Jeff Bezos.

And the Interface dives straight into that world, breaking down how we use tech and how increasingly tech uses us.

Each week, three sharp tech journalists unpack the stories shaping the digital landscape right now, from AI power plays to the platforms quietly steering politics, culture and everyday life.

Coming up next is a taste of the Interface.

[Thomas Germain]

We hope you enjoy it.

[Karen Howe]

This literally is the beef of the century, because this is the beef that is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.

[Thomas Germain]

From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. I'm Thomas Germain, a tech columnist at the BBC who covers how we use technology and how technology uses us.

[Karen Howe]

I'm Karen Howe, investigative reporter covering all things AI.

[Nicky Wolfe]

And I'm Nicky Wolfe I do the weird Internet subculture and national security stuff.

[Karen Howe]

Today on the interface we will be.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Discussing, is your doorbell spying on you and your neighbors?

[Thomas Germain]

Why the US TikTok takeover matters, even if you don't use the app and.

[Karen Howe]

The beef that launched ChatGPT.

[Nicky Wolfe]

So who cooked the super bowl on Sunday?

[Thomas Germain]

I can't.

[Karen Howe]

Not I.

[Nicky Wolfe]

The only Brit in this recording is the only one who watched the Super Bowl, I guess for the football.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah, I. I had a friend come over for dinner and I was like, oh, we should watch something. Like, what do you. What do you want to put on? He's like, oh, the super bowl is right. I'd completely forgotten it. Which makes me feel like I'm not a real American.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Not a real American.

[Karen Howe]

Are you guys, like, big fans of the ads?

[Thomas Germain]

It was this time?

[Karen Howe]

Yeah.

[Thomas Germain]

There's one ad in particular that we want to talk about now, right?

[Nicky Wolfe]

Yeah. And it got people very riled up because of what it. What it implied. And that ad was by Ring the Doorbell company. Loads and loads of people I know use it. I'm sure that's the same for you guys. It's very useful. You know, someone rings the doorbell, you have an app on your phone, you can see who stood outside. What they announced during the super bowl ad was a new feature that they've been soft rolling out for a little while called Search Party. They announced it for lost dogs. They were like, we have already saved 99 missing dogs. Because someone, someone whose dog runs away, you can hit the app and it will turn on everyone's ring door cameras and look around for the lost dog.

[Thomas Germain]

I like finding lost dogs. I mean, that sounds nice, but it also means that your camera is part of this giant surveillance network. A lot of people totally freaked out about this, right?

[Nicky Wolfe]

Yeah. And I think fairly rightly so. I mean, we live in an era where surveillance, mass surveillance, and law enforcement overreach, if we can very diplomatically put it like that, is top of the news.

[Karen Howe]

I saw this ad too, and I feel like the thing that was, there were two things that made this ad, I think really bad for the company. Like, the first one is that they talked about how this Search Party feature has successfully found 99 dogs in 90 days of operation. There are 10 million lost dogs in the world. So it's like not even a good functioning product like people have been talking about.

[Thomas Germain]

That's pretty good.

[Karen Howe]

That's literally a 0.005% success rate. Like, they have 99 dogs.

[Thomas Germain]

That's more than no dog. You gotta. I like that.

[Karen Howe]

That's true. That's true. But the problem number two is that I think the visuals of the ad, I think that's why it set off alarm bells for everyone, because they literally showed all of the homes suddenly lighting up and scanning the streets with blue light to find a dog. And in a moment right now, where so much of the US Is has ICE on the top of their minds and all the things that have been happening, happening with confrontations between ICE and.

[Thomas Germain]

Citizens, Immigration and Customs Enforce.

[Karen Howe]

Yeah, this is why the ad has gone instantly viral in the wrong direction for the company. Like so many hundreds of thousands, millions of people now are talking about how they never knew that this was a possibility. They had no idea, and they want to immediately opt out of the future or ditch the product.

[Nicky Wolfe]

And what a lot of people describe it as was a Trojan horse. Who could object to Lost dogs? But the functionality of this, the potential for this to be used for other things. Even if we say that the US Government will be absolutely above board with this, and we already know that the US Government has successfully requested and received Ring camera footage, you know, this can. You're trusting every government and a massive tech company here. And that is a huge leap of faith that I don't think tech companies have really earned.

[Thomas Germain]

And Ring in particular, these aren't like hypothetical concerns like sharing Ring camera footage with law enforcement for a long time, like, was the point. Ring partnered with police departments all over the United States, passed out these cameras, encouraged them to distribute them in neighborhoods, specifically as a tool to set up police surveillance. In fact, they had this system set up where police could create Ring accounts and they could get access to camera footage from people's houses without a warrant. They could just request it from the company and they would hand it right over. This caused a big controversy. There were cases where people were like, they didn't realize that they were handing over, like, their home security footage to police departments, and they shut that feature off. But there's all kinds of other concerns, right? There was this big Federal Trade Commission, but I think a lot of people who pay really close attention to Ring saw this ad and were like, yeah, duh, what did you think this was? There's this giant tech company that has all of these cameras all over the United States and all over the world. And yeah, they are in control of that footage. It's stored on their servers. And like you were saying, this search party feature that for now is just about finding lost dogs, is on automatically. If you don't want to participate, you have to go.

[Nicky Wolfe]

This is a huge point.

[Thomas Germain]

Turn it off. They've opted you in.

[Karen Howe]

It's worth saying as well. Like, the reason why I think people were so freaked out is because of the ICE stuff that's happening right now. And just as you were saying, Tom, that Ring has a history of giving data to law enforcement, ICE also has a history of trying to use different types of technology platforms like this one to engage in more surveillance. Like there was this zine that 404 media published that actually documented a bunch of the different tech apps and tech platforms that ICE has used, including ones that they have partnerships with, like with Palantir, where Palantir is developing this immigration OS platform that's integrating all this data into, from different government agencies to track immigrants, but also from tech companies that they don't actually have official partnerships with. So the 404 zine talks about Flock, which is the. This network of cameras that do automated license recognition in the US and what 404 found was that ICE will ask local police departments that have access to Flock to do searches at the behest of ICE. So think about, like, Flock is 80,000 cameras, and it's specifically license plate recognition. Like Ring is millions and millions and millions more cameras. Like, this is the largest private camera network in the world. And that just completely expands to a different scale the level of visibility that a law enforcement agency like ICE could have if they wanted it.

[Thomas Germain]

Palantir, of course, is a tech company founded by the billionaire Peter Thiel that does a lot of data processing for the US Government and the military and now ice. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Yeah, and the UK government just signed a huge. Just a few months ago, signed a huge deal with Palantir. So they're also working in security here. I mean, Palantir is literally named for the scrying device that Sauron uses in the Lord of the Rings. I mean, it could not be more.

[Karen Howe]

These tech companies are not subtle.

[Nicky Wolfe]

But if you name yourself after literally the ultimate evil in one of the largest stories, I think, I mean, help us help you guys. Silicon Valley.

[Thomas Germain]

Now, Ring, in their defense, says they have like, really robust security practices. We also aren't here to say, like, Ring is evil. This is bad. No one should use it. It's. It's a personal choice.

[Nicky Wolfe]

So we did get in touch with Ring and they got back to us with a response which says that right now this particular feature search party can only recognize dogs. They said they do have an optional feature called familiar faces that does use human facial recognition. They said that video sharing is never automatic and you can with search party share by choice to share the video with the dog owner. They also said that Ring has no partnership with ice, but they did say that they do hand over data to law enforcement, but only when they're legally required to do so.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah, I mean, those are pretty robust protections. Right. But I think what a lot of critics are concerned about and also like what a lot of people who saw this ad are worried about is like, it shows you, like, the potential of this technology and the kinds of things it could be used for if the company, you know, changes its policies or changes its strategies at some point in the future.

[Nicky Wolfe]

The, in fairness is that these are very useful. My, my dad, who's disabled, has a, I don't think it's Ring, but another similar camera installed in his flat so that his carer can always check in and make sure that he hasn't had a fall, make sure that he's safe. Loads of people feel like this makes them safer.

[Thomas Germain]

But you know, there's a trade off that people are making. Like you're saying, Nikki, there's a very real way in which these can help promote the safety of your house and your family. That's, that's an absolutely realistic possibility and outcome of using these products. But there is a trade off which is giving up control over, you know, what is happening on your own property, sometimes inside your own house, and it opens you up to potential consequences in the future. I mean, you can think about people talk about your data. You know, maybe no one's doing anything bad with it right now, but the fact that it exists means that someday in the future it could be used for a purpose that you don't like or you're not comfortable with.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Yeah. And it is possible to say, I can see the argument that this is worth it for the chance at saving a life, even for the chance at finding your dog. Right. But that's the question that we're being asked. And because it's opt out rather than opt in, that's not even a question we're being asked.

[Thomas Germain]

And in terms of questions being answered for you, let's say you're not comfortable with having a Ring camera. If your neighbor across the street puts one on their door and it's pointed towards your house and you're filming, there's nothing you could do about that. So it's like other people are deciding.

[Nicky Wolfe]

And I think this speaks to one of the key questions that surrounds all of tech, which is how much privacy are you Willing to sacrifice for convenience.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Karen Howe]

I mean, this is one of the things is like, these companies kind of use the convenience to erode privacy, but they don't actually have to do that. Right. Like, they could provide these features without also accessing the footage. So they kind of use the convenience doorway into being able to monetize off of really intimate data and intimate moments in people's lives.

[Thomas Germain]

If you want to turn this off, it's very easy to do. If you have a Ring camera, you open up the Ring camera app, you go to the homepage, there's like a little menu up at the top that you can click on, and then you go to the control center, and there should be a feature there called Search Party. Or it'll say something like, opt into or opt out of helping to find lost pets. Which, I mean, why would you want to do that? We all. We love lost pets. So this is easy to turn off if you're not comfortable with it. There are a whole bunch of other privacy settings that you can go switch off as well, which is something that I really think everyone should go look at. Like, even if you're totally comfortable with Ring, if you've got one of these things on the front of your house or inside your house, just go look at what privacy settings they offer you with and make sure you're comfortable with it.

[Karen Howe]

A hundred percent.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah, we're fixated on Ring here. But just think for a second about all of the products in your house that are connected to the Internet. All of them are collecting information. I know at Karen's house, it's like you're a Luddite. So it's just like a bunch of rocks and stones.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Like, nothing.

[Thomas Germain]

Like, I don't even know if you have WI Fi. But for the rest of us, there's even. I worry about this stuff, and it's worth just putting in any effort that you can. You know, after you're done listening to the show, just check it out, see what's out there. It's worth your time.

[Karen Howe]

I. I love that. I, like, surprisingly, do not have a digital hygiene routine. So I feel like after this episode, I'm immediately going to. Yeah, I'm gonna. Yeah. And look at my two technology objects in my house.

[Thomas Germain]

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[Thomas Germain]

Yeah, so we've been talking about the power that all these technology companies have over our lives. And I think there's one in particular right now that perhaps like culturally and the, the conversations we're all having, that has more of an influence than any other, and that is TikTok. And it's a good moment to be talking about it because there was this huge transition. There's a TikTok takeover, right, where the company that owns TikTok, a Chinese company called ByteDance, was forced to sell the US operations of the app to a consortium of other companies in order to keep operating in the US because of a bunch of laws the government passed over, you know, privacy and security and national security concerns. So now, as of January 22, TikTok's US version of the app is now owned by three different companies, including Oracle, which is a big Data processing company owned by Larry Ellison, who's a major Trump donor and ally, and a company called mgx, which is based in Abu Dhabi, which did a big crypto deal with the Trump family and then, like, another, like, investment firm. So what's been happening on the app is absolute chaos over the past couple weeks. And I know a lot of people, you know, hear this, and they go, oh, TikTok. Like, whatever. I don't care about that. I think we've kind of gotten over some.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Isn't that the Gen Z? Like, what's that?

[Thomas Germain]

Right? It's like, there's. There. You still hear people go, oh, that's where the kids are dancing. This matters to your life whether or not you use TikTok. You hate TikTok. You've never watched a TikTok video in your life. It still has a major influence over your life and your future. TikTok is, I think, without a doubt, it's like the sun at the center of the solar system of the Internet. Right. It's not the biggest app in the world of social media. Not even close. But it has become, like, the locus of online digital culture. It's the place where conversations start and then branch out into other parts of the Internet and then leak into the real world.

[Nicky Wolfe]

It's the cultural engine room right now.

[Podcast Host]

Exactly.

[Karen Howe]

The most compelling explanation of TikTok that I've ever heard. Like, I personally don't think about TikTok, but now I'm feeling FOMO.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah, it. It is a really, really important ecosystem. And what people are freaking out about now is the app is undergoing some major changes. So part of this deal that was struck, among the big concerns is that the Chinese government might have control over the algorithm and they might, like, spread propaganda.

[Nicky Wolfe]

There was this amazing hearing in the U.S. senate where the CEO of ByteDance.

[Thomas Germain]

Oh, yeah, well, that was the CEO of TikTok, not the CEO of ByteDance. That was.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Oh, right, right. So that's. But yeah, the.

[Thomas Germain]

The.

[Nicky Wolfe]

I think it was Tom Tillis. The senator was like, have you ever been a member of the Chinese Communist Party? And the guy's like. He was like, so I'm. I'm Singaporean. The guy's like, have you ever been a citizen of China? And the guy's like. I'm saying Borian, but there is no reason to think that. I mean, Tom, maybe you can gripe me on this, but there's no reason to think that your data is less safe with TikTok than it is with, say, Meta or Elon Musk's. Twitter.

[Thomas Germain]

There was never. We've been talking about TikTok freaking out about it for years. There has never been a single shred of actual evidence that has been produced that anything untoward happened with the Chinese government and American TikTok data. Never. There hasn't been one shred of evidence. It's all been speculation about things that could go wrong. So these. This new set of companies took over. It's called the US joint venture is what TikTok is calling it. And part of their plan is that they were going to retrain the algorithm, like, take the algorithm and start over from scratch and, like, build a new one. And in the first few days, like, the first week after the app rolled out, things just went nuts.

[Karen Howe]

What do you mean by that? Like, what. What happened?

[Thomas Germain]

So it seemed to a lot of people, like, there was censorship. So the TikTok account, the official account for the Democrats in the United States, like, usually their videos get, like, millions of views. All of a sudden, they were posting videos, they were getting, like, zero views or like, a couple of thousand. There were some examples screenshots sent online where people said, like, they were trying to send messages that had the word Epstein in them and they weren't getting sent. And also there was all this weird stuff. Like, if you looked at the search page, it was suggesting all of this, like, weird, creepy stuff. Like, it would suggest that you searched, like, don't look at that mirror in your house. Like, just the weirdest stuff in the world. It turned out that what was happening was that there was this big snowstorm a couple of weeks ago across the United States. And according to TikTok, a data center had a power outage and the app was just going haywire because things weren't working. Then very quickly, like, everything kind of went back to normal. But what we do know is the app is retraining the algorithm, right? They're going to shift how it recommends videos, what it recommends, and people are worried that these companies that now have control over this app have these ties to the Trump administration, and perhaps they could use this new power that they have to promote ideas that are beneficial to Trump or the American government or suppress criticism.

[Nicky Wolfe]

And it's worth saying there is precedent for this, right? This is people. People are not worried for no reason. This is exactly what did happen after Elon Musk took over Twitter is that the algorithm started favoring things based on differing political.

[Thomas Germain]

And he open, openly said that Twitter.

[Nicky Wolfe]

At the time was basically in that same position of being a cultural engine room and it really changes conversation off the app in a way that affects people's lives. Even if you've never been on Twitter or TikTok.

[Karen Howe]

Tom, just take a, take a step back when you said that they're retraining the algorithm. Like, how is it actually working between all of these companies? Like, is Oracle the one that's going to be retraining the algorithm is the other company? And have they said anything about why they're retraining the algorithm or what they're going to retrain the algorithm with?

[Thomas Germain]

That's a really interesting question. So part of the agreement in the sale of the app is that they have to retrain the algorithm because the algorithm is intellectual property. And ByteDance, the company that, you know, owns most of TikTok, they still have like a 20% share in this new company, the TikTok joint venture. So any concerns that you had about China, it's not like those have gone away, right? Like, China still has major control over the app. I think it's like there's this new company called the TikTok Joint Venture and like the company is doing it. So Oracle, the giant tech company that Larry Ellison owns, is certainly involved in that process. But, like, you can just kind of feel that things are different on there. The videos that are getting recommended are just different. And like the order of videos, whatever.

[Karen Howe]

Reason, they just have Larry Ellison's face in every single one.

[Thomas Germain]

So weird.

[Nicky Wolfe]

I've never been on TikTok. I've seen things that are tech talks because they come through Instagram reels. I think one of the things I want to do is join TikTok and sort of get an idea of how TikTok works and get a, get a sense of it. If you're, you're. You've been on Tick Tock for a while, right?

[Thomas Germain]

I've been, I'm a big Tick Tock user. I actually joined it because, like, I felt like, well, I'm writing about it. I have to be using this app in order to understand what's going on there. And I really had to force myself to do it. I was like, this is so uncool. I don't want to be using. And then, like, I got completely addicted to it. Like, I have to force myself to put it down. But, yeah, I, I'm a big TikTok user at this point.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Would you be up for teaching me? Would you give me the. I think we have to.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah, we gotta get you. Because you're like, really? You're not participating in the modern Era, if you're not on there. I mean, Karen, I don't know if we can. We can get you involved.

[Karen Howe]

But Nikki, I feel like. I feel like this is a situation where Tom, you're the earthling and Nikki is an alien that's coming to Earth. Well, and I am like the relative that's still on the other planet. And Nikki's just gonna have to call home every once in a while and explain to me what's happening on Earth.

[Thomas Germain]

Let's talk. Let's set you up with an account. I'll tell you how to make a video, like what you can try and do to go viral and get people to pay attention. That could be like a nice project we're working on in the background.

[Nicky Wolfe]

Stay tuned. Although, hang on. In the UK, will I be getting the Ellison algorithm or the OG TikTok algorithm?

[Thomas Germain]

Outside of the US, it's the same TikTok it always was there. It's connected to the US TikTok app. So the. The content is flowing back and forth. But you, Nikki, if you set it up, you're still getting that, like, pure, original. It's like classic Coke, right? You're getting the original TikTok algorithm. But what I do want to talk about for a second is maybe why you shouldn't be worried. Like, there are real concerns. What's going to happen with TikTok now? Who's in control? What's going to happen in the algorithm? What we saw with Twitter, now called X, right, is that Elon Musk turned it into an ecosystem to promote his political agenda. Like he openly said that's what he was doing. And this was, it seems, catastrophic for the app. They lost a ton of users, they lost a ton of advertising revenue. It seemed like this wasn't a great business decision. It certainly wasn't handled in a smooth way that didn't upset lots of people and push them off the app. I think with TikTok, there's like three different companies who are investing along with TikTok. I think that these people are more concerned about business and the TikTok app itself making money. And I think they're very worried about upsetting TikTok's users and losing the cultural cachet and the force and the power of this app. We reached out to TikTok to ask them to comment. They declined. But certainly the company's position is that they are as concerned about protecting people's privacy and promoting free speech as they ever have been. That's the company line. That's what it's always been. But in the time that follows, like the future of this app, people are going to be looking for examples of where things are going wrong, where it seems, oh, they're suppressing this kind of content, they're promoting this, and I don't want them to. Is that happening because TikTok and its allies and, you know, people from the Trump administration are putting their thumbs on the scale, or is it just that people are making bad videos that no one wants to watch? You'll never know because the algorithm is a total mystery to people who are using the app.

[Karen Howe]

Okay, I need to talk to you guys about a different super bowl ad. I, I, I know that we already talked about one super bowl ad, but there was another one that a lot of people were talking about, which was the Anthropic ads.

[Nicky Wolfe]

I love this. I, I think this is so funny.

[Karen Howe]

Yes. Anthropic is an OpenAI competitor. They make the chatbot Claude. And this is Anthropic basically made four different variations on an ad where there's a user of a chatbot and then there's a chatbot personified in another person who is then basically responding to the person as though they were the chatbot. So one of the ads is like this guy who's trying to work out and he's struggling to work out, and he's like, can I get a six pack really quickly? And then the chatbot personified is like.

[Thomas Germain]

It'S like his personal trainer, right?

[Karen Howe]

Yeah. It's like this is like really buff dude standing next to him who has this like, deadpan expression and then goes, perfect. That is a clear, well established goal. Let's start with. And then whatever. And it goes through this whole thing. The chatbot then suddenly goes, and you know what else you should do instead of working out? Have you considered getting these insoles that will make short kings stand taller? And like, every single one of these ads, Ben has this tagline, ads are coming to AI but not Claude. I think for most people who saw this ad, it was probably just really funny because obviously OpenAI and Anthropic are competitors, and OpenAI just announced that they are going to be rolling out ads to ChatGPT.

[Nicky Wolfe]

This was an attack ad, right?

[Karen Howe]

This was basically a subtweet back in the day when there were subtweets. Because OpenAI is not explicitly mentioned anywhere. There's just this reference that ads are coming. You. And of course, OpenAI is the only, only company that's rolling out ads. This deeply triggered Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI he tweets out this really long, dramatic essay where he's like, first of all, these ads were funny. Second of all, seriously dishonest. And then he just like insults Anthropic with like more and more intense insults.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah.

[Karen Howe]

As like the essay goes on. So he says Anthropic serves an expensive product to rich people. And then he goes, one authoritarian company won't get us there on their own. To say nothing of the other obvious risks. It is a dark path.

[Thomas Germain]

Yeah. I mean, we should talk about why OpenAI was so freaked out about this anthropic ad. Like the whole AI industry is in this super precarious position and this like weird petty fight between the billionaires who own these different companies actually ultimately will have a direct effect on the experience that you're having on the Internet. It seems like, you know, just this like high school drama. But this, this actually matters in some surprising.

[Karen Howe]

Yeah. 100. So. So this literally is the beef of the century because this is the be beef that launched ChatGPT. I don't know if you guys know this story. Like, basically OpenAI did not actually intend to launch ChatGPT as a product. When they were in November of 2022, they were actually working on a totally different product, which was this super Assistant. It was going to be like a chatbot, but it was going to be built on GPT4. And they were supposed to launch it in the spring of 2023. But in the fall of 2022, rumors started circulating within OpenAI that anthropic might launch a chatbot before them. And so the executives literally made a decision on the spot to accelerate the launch of the chatbot in two weeks time using not GPT4, which the entire company was working on, but using an older model, GPT 3.5 and just smacking on the user interface that they were already developing for the launch in spring of 2023 onto this older model. And they messaged it to the entire company and also to the public as this is going to be a low key research preview. It's not going to be a real product. It's going to maybe have a small viral moment on the Internet. They wanted specifically to get the data flywheel going. So they wanted that virality to then generate a bunch of interest, get a lot of user data and then use that user data to train up and refine the real product launch GPT4 that was going to happen later and instead like they pop this out and it just blows up and completely changes history. Right. And the reason why OpenAI made that decision in that moment is also because of the history of Anthropic. So Anthropic was founded by a splinter group from OpenAI.

[Thomas Germain]

Right. So this is personal.

[Karen Howe]

Yeah. In late 2020, Dario Amade, CEO of Nowanthropic, was actually a executive at OpenAI, gathers up a bunch of his buddies who were in critical roles within OpenAI, and they decide to leave to start this competitor because they fundamentally disagreed with Sam Altman's approach to running OpenAI, and also fundamentally did not trust Altman's character and did not believe that he would be capable of continuing to run an AI company. Well, this is like a multi year, extremely personal event that has literally shaped the entire trajectory of the AI industry and of people's lives around the world. And it is the beef that is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.

[Thomas Germain]

That's the interesting thing. Right? There's, there's this moment that we're getting right now with AI that we haven't had in technology for a long time, which is that there is actual competition. Right. Most of these giant tech companies have these monopolies. Right. Google has a monopoly over search engines. Amazon, like, that's where you go to buy things on the Internet. There's all these companies that have their little fiefdoms and nobody really competes with them and they can make their products worse and worse and, or like in the pursuit of making more money and there's nothing you can do about it. With AI, there's all these different companies that make a product that is kind of the same.

[Karen Howe]

Yes.

[Thomas Germain]

So there's like this desperate competition to be the cool kid in high school and like Anthropic launching this ad that makes OpenAI look bad, like, that's a code red. Like they're freaking out right now because, you know, in a month OpenAI's empire could collapse. Like, I'm not saying that's going to happen, but they're like, everybody is right on the razor's edge right now.

[Karen Howe]

So we talked about how this beef had a historical importance in actually launching ChatGPT, but it also is going to continue to affect your experience with these chatbots moving forward. Because, for example, the New York Times reported last, late last year that when OpenAI started seeing this, this drop in its market share, the company internally declared a code orange to try and figure out how to get their user numbers and their user engagement back up. And when OpenAI declared that code orange and when they were tinkering with the way that the model behaves, it had a direct effect on users. Like people are worried that the company is going to make the product more addictive. And we have already seen the effect that that had earlier last year when OpenAI accidentally made the product more addictive. And then it led to this entire new phenomenon of AI psychosis. So this beef and the competition between all of these companies is literally driving how hundreds of millions of people are going to be experiencing their AI product. And it's worth noting that it's like not just a beef between OpenAI and Anthropic, like the CEOs of every single AI company has beef with one another. You think that this industry is primarily driven just by profit and business competition, but actually a huge, huge component of the moves that these companies make and how it's ultimately going to affect your experience on your phone is because these individuals hate each other.

[Nicky Wolfe]

It's so childish.

[Thomas Germain]

If you want to get in touch with us over email, you can reach us@the interfacebc.com.

[Podcast Host]

That was episode one of the Interface Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

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