Hayley Williams

Summary

Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Episode: Hayley Williams (Dec 2, 2025, The Ringer)

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Episode Overview

This lively and heartfelt episode features Amy Poehler in conversation with Hayley Williams—iconic lead singer of Paramore and acclaimed solo artist—on the heels of Hayley’s third solo album, "Ego Death at the Bachelorette Party." With the familiar warmth and sharp humor Amy brings to each episode, the conversation delves into Hayley's musical roots, her relationship with her voice (and anxiety), the joys and strains of being a woman in the music industry, female friendship, touring stories, and even the mundane but very real struggles of being short. Before Hayley joins, Amy warms up the show with Hayley’s vocal coach, Doug Peck, who provides both hilarious and insightful glimpses into Hayley’s vocal regimen and career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Musical Community & Warm-ups With Doug Peck

[02:48–14:23]

• Doug Peck (Hayley’s vocal coach & music director) opens by sharing how mutual friendships (Kathryn Hahn & Rashida Jones) brought him and Amy together for a charity choir.
• Amy gets a glimpse of Hayley's vocal warm-up routine, including playful exercises (“hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey”). Doug describes the indispensable bond and mutual eagerness for learning:

  “Hailey is … an open student and a student of life and just everything I’ve ever said to her, I feel like she just sponges it in and she remembers something I said three years ago and will make a great sound…and she’s such a Capricorn. She’s always ready to climb that next mountain.” —Doug Peck [06:03]

• Doug explains practical vocal health tips, like singing into a straw in water for cooldown (“It’s like a little massage for the vocal cords after heavy use, you know?” [10:18]), and shares the process of getting high, challenging notes (“That’s right. And sometimes when they record, they’ve…never done it live all the way through.” [07:08]).
• Doug’s thoughtful questions for Hayley: (1) "What would your Bat-signal be?" (2) "What’s the last song you’d want to hear before you die?" [11:35–12:06]

2. Hayley Williams: Voice, Anxiety, and Somatic Wisdom

[15:41–23:10]

• Hayley and Amy exchange “glazes” (fawning compliments) and bond over being nervous to meet each other (“I'm just gonna glaze you.” “Glaze me, baby. Glaze me.” [16:21–16:24]).
• Hayley reflects on her addiction to the internet, generational differences in internet use, and growing up with a mother who was a public school teacher—bonding with Amy over shared experiences [16:53–18:03].
• On forming a relationship with her own voice:

  “I started singing more to the hymns at church…my stomach ache would go away…It grounded me and it slowed me down.” —Hayley Williams [21:21] “The voice can tone the vagus nerve…which controls so much of this anxiety stuff and how we regulate. It makes perfect sense.” [21:45]

• Amy and Hayley discuss somatic techniques, the therapeutic effects of singing and sighing as forms of self-soothing [22:17–22:46].

3. Performance, Longevity, and Owning the Stage

[23:24–33:40]

• Hayley opens up about the challenge (and anxiety) of performing songs she wrote as a teen, especially high notes from "All I Wanted":

  “The journey of...so you've got this note and you're driving to it and you want to sing it on tour...” —Amy Poehler [26:07] “A lot of warming up and warming down after shows.” —Hayley Williams [26:32]

• The reality of aging as a performer—changes in vocal comfort zones, regrets about quitting music theory, and the “tender” process of band formation and musical taste-trading as a teen in Tennessee [27:12–31:14].

4. Womanhood, Safety, and Femininity in Rock

[33:40–38:14]

• The conversation pivots to the struggle and evolution of identity as “the only girl in a gang” for years on tour:

  “I really shirked any aspect of me that was remotely feminine…I did it to myself. No one asked me to do that.” —Hayley Williams [36:57]

• Amy and Hayley honestly discuss the “deprogramming” of internalized bias and learning to re-embrace femininity with curiosity and less judgment.

5. Role Models, Female Mentors, and Community

[38:35–41:35]

• Hayley shares the importance of role models like Joan Jett and Kathleen Hanna, and how intergenerational mentorship was rare but precious:

  “It’s so validating, by the way, to read books like your book and Kathleen’s book, and read about women…outside of my family to really soak up wisdom from other women.” [40:12]

• The validation and healing of finally collaborating with women, from Joan Jett to the matriarchal dynamic of Taylor Swift’s Eras tour [41:04].

6. Tour Life, Routine, and Recovery

[41:35–47:41]

• Hayley details her more introverted post-show routine: Gogglebox, room service, and downtime (“England is full of angels. According to Gogglebox.” [43:59]).
• The fun of watching heavy, meaningful TV and the pleasures of not going out every night in your 30s.

7. The Physicality (and Perils) of Performance

[47:49–50:30]

• From the stress of not losing your voice to the body’s “flight or fight” response, Hayley and Amy commiserate about performance anxiety, the possibility of onstage bodily mishaps (“How have I not shit my pants?…Women, most of the time, don’t shit their pants. That’s like a guy thing, actually.” [48:32–49:10]).
• The unique, connected feeling of recognizing front-row fans and the communal catharsis of songs that change meaning in the crowd’s hands:

  “It’s almost like I intuit what the song means to them. I’m not thinking about what it means to me anymore. It’s so healing.” —Hayley Williams [49:42]

8. Transcendence, Joy, and Meaning Through Music

[50:40–54:00]

• The song "Last Hope" takes on a new, redemptive life because of fans:

  “Having that at a paramore show…and feeling like everyone in the room has survived so many different things and we’re all here…It really does something to those types of songs where I wrote them in such isolation.” —Hayley Williams [51:06]

• Hayley articulates how joy is a challenging, unfamiliar emotion (“Joy is a tough emotion for me because I don’t trust it. I always think it’s gonna—the piano’s gonna fall from the sky…”) but finds it through crowd connection [52:53].

9. Short Girl Problems

[54:00–56:40]

• Hilarious, self-deprecating banter about the pros and cons of being 5'2":

  “You’re way up there, man…And I felt so vulnerable to the elements…closer to the sun.” —Hayley Williams [55:18] “Nothing is made for shorties.” —Hayley Williams [56:14]

10. Influence, Artistic Community, and 30s Real Talk

[56:51–61:57]

• Amy praises Hayley as a “favorite artist’s favorite artist,” and Hayley discusses collaborating with artists of all ages—like David Byrne and the Linda Lindas.
• The feeling of being in the middle generation (“30s are weird. Especially the middle of my 30s…Something happened at 35. I started seeing myself, like, seeing pictures and being like, oh, that’s different.” [58:39])
• Amy reassures her ("I don't feel old...I'm 54") and both reflect on how age perceptions shift [59:18–59:47].

11. Women in Music Today & Inspiring Sounds

[61:57–62:48]

• Hayley lists artists she’s excited about, including Mannequin Pussy, Olivia Dean, Scandinavian music scenes, and the joy of connecting with other women musicians (“We don’t have to be doing the same thing… I feel so much less alone by engaging in it more, and it’s so exciting.” [61:03]).

12. What Makes Hayley Laugh: Wayne’s World & Nostalgia

[63:01–64:46]

• Hayley’s comedic and fashion hero is Wayne’s World (“I thought that’s how we would dress when we became adults...This movie has—it’s like The Godfather to me. I quote that movie all the time.” [63:40]).

13. Doug Peck’s Bat Signal & Final Reflections

[65:03–67:39]

• Hayley answers Doug’s Bat Signal (“It would just be the Gremlin...you would see it in the sky and be like, gotta go.” [66:09]), and her “last song before you die” (“‘Staying Alive.’ That was always my funeral song...it would be cool to go out to it as well.” [67:00]).
• The episode ends with Amy, Hayley, and Doug all doing a straw vocal cooldown together.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Musical Anxiety & Healing

  “I started singing more to the hymns at church…my stomach ache would go away…It grounded me and it slowed me down.”
  —Hayley Williams [21:21]

• On Femininity in Rock

  “I really shirked any aspect of me that was remotely feminine…It really hurt me. I did it to myself. No one asked me to do that.”
  —Hayley Williams [36:57]

• On Joy and Performance

  “Joy is a tough emotion for me because I don’t trust it. I always think...the piano’s gonna fall from the sky...Paramore shows...they feel so joyous, because I’m relying on a lot of other things.”
  —Hayley Williams [52:53]

• On Being Short

  “You’re way up there, man…I felt so vulnerable…I was, like, closer to the sun.”
  —Hayley Williams [55:18]

• On Influence and Community

  “We don’t have to be doing the same thing… I feel so much less alone by engaging in it more, and it’s so exciting.”
  —Hayley Williams [61:03]

• Hayley’s Bat Signal

  “It would just be the Gremlin…with a glow behind it…you would see it in the sky and be like, gotta go.”
  —Hayley Williams [66:09]

• The Ultimate Last Song

  “Staying Alive. That was always my funeral song. But I suppose it would be kind of cool to go out to it as well.”
  —Hayley Williams [67:00]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Doug Peck musical warm-ups & song talk: [02:48–14:23]
• Hayley Williams joins / voice & anxiety: [15:41–23:10]
• High notes, age, and vocal maintenance: [23:24–33:40]
• Femininity and safety in music industry: [33:40–41:35]
• Tour/post-show routines: [41:35–47:41]
• On-stage mishaps & physicality of singing: [47:49–50:30]
• Songs changed by fans: [50:40–54:00]
• Short girl struggles: [54:00–56:40]
• Artistic community & age: [56:51–61:57]
• Women in music today: [61:57–62:48]
• What makes Hayley laugh / Wayne’s World: [63:01–64:46]
• Bat signal & last-song-before-dying: [65:03–67:39]
• Vocal cooldown with straws (fun closing): [67:39–69:02]

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Closing Tone

The episode is a deep, witty, and affirming exploration of creative evolution, self-acceptance, enduring female friendships, and the simple joys of music—the kind of “good hang” Amy embodies. Hayley is candid, vulnerable, and always ready to laugh, with a conversational chemistry that is infectious and inspiring for listeners of all backgrounds.

Transcript

[Amy Poehler]

This episode is brought to you by Hotels.com make your next trip work for you. Hotels.com's new save your Way feature lets you choose between Instant Savings now or Banking Rewards for later. It's a flexible rewards program that puts you in control, turning every stay into an opportunity. No confusing math, no blackout dates. Use your rewards however you choose, [e-mail] savings. Save youe Way is available to loyalty members in the US and UK on hotels with member prices. Other terms apply. See site for details. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Good Hang. This is such a good one. You know, this is a guest who I wanted on since I started this podcast and I am such a fan. It is Haley Williams, a beautiful artist, an incredible singer, songwriter. You might know her from the band Paramore, but she's out with her third solo album, Ego Death, at the bachelorette party and she's just so special. And we had such a good time and we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today. We're going to talk about working with David Byrne. We're going to talk about, you know, Wayne's World and how important of a movie it is. We're going to talk about being short pros and cons, and we're going to warm up and warm down because that's what a person does when they take care of their voice. But most importantly, we're going to start this podcast like we always do. We're going to talk to someone who knows Hayley Williams and knows her well. And today we have Doug Peck. Now, Doug Peck is a musical director, a teacher, voice teacher, if you will. He's also a trained musician and pianist, and he works with Hayley to get her voice just right. And I know him in a very special way, too. So let's find out what that is. And let's get Doug on the line. Hi, Doug. This episode of Good Hang is presented by Walmart Express Delivery. Getting gifts to your doorstep in as fast as an hour. Who. Who needs elves when Walmart Express Delivery can make Nespresso machines magically appear on your doorstep? And if you do happen to forget something, no judgment. You can even order gifts up until 5pm on December 24th. Santa, you might want to take notes, download the Walmart app, or head to Walmart.com and get your gifts delivered fast, subject to availability terms and fees apply. Get up. What do you say? And I am the one who was a really good. Hey. Hi, friend.

[Hayley Williams]

Hi, my queen.

[Doug Peck]

It's so good to see you.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this. I mean, Doug, we could do an entire episode on your life, your talent. How did we meet?

[Doug Peck]

We met through our buddies, Kathryn Hahn and Rashida Jones. Both of their episodes were so good. Where two years ago, at the Christmas season, we thought it would be fun to do some Christmas music together. And at Rashida's house. And you walked in, you're like, hi. And we instantly fell into a beautiful rapport. You so beautifully sang all the alto parts of all the Christmas carols we sang. And I'll never forget you sang. It feels like the song is on some distant shore and we're the boat that's pulling away from it.

[Amy Poehler]

Altos, give it up for altos. Pour one out for altos. Well, I realized, you know, we were like, we want to put together a choir because we were feeling like we wanted to do something communal and for the community. And then Katherine said, I'm working with this incredible person named Doug. And then I realized much later, it was like saying, I know this woman named Julia Child. She's gonna come and teach us how to make a chicken. Like, we had the best of the best. We're so lucky.

[Doug Peck]

Well, thanks, Katherine, for introducing us. Speaking of Julia Child, Amy, let's get your head voice warm.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. Julia Child. Okay. So, Doug, what should I. You. Thank you.

[Doug Peck]

Can you give us a good old acting class. And then show us a little siren? From low in your range to high in your range. Back to low in your range. Good. Really good. Can you roll your shoulders while you do that? And keep yourself nice and cozy? Comfy?

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, my God, My shoulders. God, I forget. I have to.

[Doug Peck]

I'm rubbing them over the zoom so they can relax.

[Amy Poehler]

No, Doug is a good shoulder rubber. And not in a creepy way. No, no, not in a creepy way. With consent. Never, never silent while you roll your shoulders out.

[Hayley Williams]

Really good. I don't know why people are laughing.

[Doug Peck]

She's using her voice.

[Hayley Williams]

I know.

[Doug Peck]

Let's do, actually, one of Haley's favorite warmups. Can you do hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Amy Poehler]

Doug has a piano right under. I can't believe you have a piano. Doug has a piano right there. Amazing. This is the first on good hang. Someone has a piano right below frame. Okay, so this is one of Haley's.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay, go ahead.

[Amy Poehler]

Can you give it to me again? Doug?

[Doug Peck]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Amy Poehler]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Doug Peck]

Great job, Amy. How does that feel?

[Amy Poehler]

That is Haley's favorite. Warm up.

[Doug Peck]

It's one of them. We have a whole list of things.

[Amy Poehler]

I've seen photos of you guys together and the way that you use breath. I mean, I want to talk to her a lot about that today. Her voice is one of my favorites. I think when we met, when I found out you guys worked together, I kind of freaked out.

[Doug Peck]

Imagine how I felt working with her for the first time. It was like, you're going to go do a session with Hayley Williams.

[Amy Poehler]

I was like, great.

[Doug Peck]

I bet I'm going to learn as much as she is.

[Amy Poehler]

What was that first session like?

[Doug Peck]

It was total love at first sight. Hailey is, you know, especially when someone's as incredible as she is, when they're such an open student and a student of life and just everything I've ever said to her, I feel like she just sponges it in and she remembers something I said three years ago and will make a great sound. And she'll be like, oh, that reminds me of. We were warming up for the Eras tour, and I like how that one sounded. Let's work on that again. And she's always willing to work on what she's great at as well as what doesn't come as easily to her. And she's such a Capricorn. She's always ready to climb that next mountain. And this new album of hers is so incredible.

[Amy Poehler]

It's so good.

[Hayley Williams]

I know.

[Amy Poehler]

I have so many. Did you hear any of it when it was being like, did she come in and say, I'm working on this song, I want to practice this song with you? Yes.

[Doug Peck]

And then she bobbed down on the couch and was like, Yeah, I got 18 new songs. You want to hear them? It's like, yeah, I do. And then she's like, some of these are really low. We should probably work on that. I was like, I cannot wait. Haley, let's go.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, wow. So that's interesting to me. Like, a singer knows, okay, I'm gonna have to perform these, and I'm gonna have to work on figuring out how to get my voice to sing these all the time.

[Doug Peck]

That's right. And sometimes when they record, they've, you know, they've never done it live all the way through. And our sessions are the first amazing time. I'm so lucky. Where you're like, okay, start at the beginning and sing it through and pick which backgrounds you wanna do and which ad libs you wanna do. And sometimes even great people like Haley are like, whoa, this doesn't feel at all like it felt on the record. Let's Find a way to do it live. And that's just such a joy.

[Amy Poehler]

I always think about that, and I want to ask her. And I think she was very. Has spoke about it in a really funny way, which is, you know, you write a song in your 20s that you then have to sing 10 years later, and it's a note that's like, you know, all I wanted was you or whatever. And it's like, damn, you gotta hit that. I bet she regrets it.

[Doug Peck]

We worked hard on that. And I'm really proud of her because that was one that wasn't always in the Paramore performances. And she was determined to get it back in the set.

[Amy Poehler]

Dang.

[Doug Peck]

And we worked totally 360 on it with both the vocals and her confidence.

[Amy Poehler]

How do you work on that? How do you work? And what is that note, by the way, Doug? Let's hear that on the piano. What's that note that she's singing?

[Doug Peck]

D flats and an E in that piece. Top of her range in a really chesty belt.

[Amy Poehler]

Chesty belt.

[Doug Peck]

Oh, there's so much chest voice in it. And it's from the soul, and she gets her whole body behind it. And we worked on having her look up to her friends in the first balcony and have her whole throat be open while she makes those sounds, knowing in her eyes that she's gonna crush it when she takes the breath to do it. And then watching the reward and watching the audience reaction, it's just so soul satisfying. She also does a lot of vocal cooldowns, so after the show, we warm her voice back down and help it relax, which helps her with the next night and helps her take a second to say, oh, yeah, I did do that really well tonight. And I did use the proper technique to sing that. And also, we've had fun days where she's like, yeah, I just wanted to scream, so I screamed that one and helped me.

[Amy Poehler]

Help me, like, get my voice back. Yeah.

[Doug Peck]

She is, after all, a rock star. So that's all set to.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, I mean, it's. I want to ask her about it. Just the idea that you have to keep your voice. I mean, I just. You know, when you lose your voice, you lose the show. The show's over. It's really an intense stress. What do you do? How do you help people not lose their voice?

[Doug Peck]

We have straws. We have straws in water. We do jump.

[Amy Poehler]

Wait, what do straws do?

[Doug Peck]

You take a straw which gets proper closure and back pressure at your vocal folds. Do you have one?

[Amy Poehler]

Somebody get me a Straw.

[Doug Peck]

Somebody getting me polar. A straw.

[Amy Poehler]

Somebody get me a straw. Watch this. I need a straw. There's no straw in here. I mean, we're never gonna find a straw. Okay, so you get a straw.

[Doug Peck]

We're gonna pretend we have a straw.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Doug Peck]

We're doing a little prop.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, my God. There's a straw flying in. Jenna has a straw. Incredible. Thank you, Jenna. Is it a metal straw? Is a metal straw okay?

[Doug Peck]

It could be fine. It doesn't matter what it's made of.

[Amy Poehler]

Because all you young people want the straws to be metal now, so can't find a paper one.

[Doug Peck]

And do you have a little liquid in that mug you got there?

[Amy Poehler]

I do.

[Doug Peck]

Are you gonna spill it if you blow bubbles into it, or is it acid?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, bubbles into it.

[Hayley Williams]

Fantastic.

[Doug Peck]

Stick the straw in there.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Doug Peck]

And just blow bubbles beautifully. Now do the same thing with the tones while you blow the bubbles. Oh, my God, Amy. Polly's doing straw bubbles. That's a big thing we do in Cool down to help the voice reset. It's like a little massage for the vocals, vocal cords after heavy use, you know?

[Amy Poehler]

It's so amazing. Now, honestly, having a podcast, I've realized I see, like, I see what it does, even just talking what it does to your vocal cords, and they need a lot of love.

[Doug Peck]

Well, we can help you come up with a warmup and a cool down before taping days. I'd love to do that with you, Doug.

[Amy Poehler]

Listen, I'd love that, and I'd also love to make every guest watch me do it and make them very uncomfortable while I take my time doing it, you know? Okay, so Hailey is coming in today, and I hope I don't, as the kids say, glaze her too hard, but I just. I love her.

[Doug Peck]

You probably will.

[Amy Poehler]

I know I will. I love her. What do you think is a question that I should ask Haley today that she doesn't get asked or that you'd want to hear or you think it would be a good thing for us to talk about?

[Doug Peck]

Okay, I thought of two. So you can decide if you want to do one or both.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Doug Peck]

One. You know how, like, Batman has the bat symbol in the sky? If there was gonna be a symbol in the sky to summon Hayley Williams, what would it be?

[Amy Poehler]

What an incredible question. So creative.

[Doug Peck]

And then the other one is, you know how everybody has, like, what's your last meal? I wanna know. What is the last song she wants to hear before she dies?

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, so emotional. Yeah.

[Doug Peck]

Welcome.

[Amy Poehler]

What is the last song you wanna Hear before you die. Whoa, that's a heavy.

[Doug Peck]

I bet she'll have an answer too. I bet she'll know the answer.

[Amy Poehler]

That's so cool. I mean, I want to think about that for myself too. I know the ones I don't want to hear. Like, I don't want to hear like elevator music or like the sound of a carousel. I'm trying to think of what I don't want to hear.

[Doug Peck]

You don't want to be bored and you don't want to feel like a clown.

[Amy Poehler]

I love that as I finish. You have worked with a lot of great women.

[Doug Peck]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

Who have you had the privilege to work with?

[Doug Peck]

You know, some days, Amy, I'm like, ooh, it's an all girl schedule. And I'm so happy. So it could be a Kathryn Hahn, Patti LuPone, Billie Eilish, Hayley Williams. I've worked with Phoebe Bridgers a lot lately.

[Amy Poehler]

Ah, you're working with her today. Not to brag, but you told me.

[Doug Peck]

That that is true. Thank you for making the scheduling work.

[Amy Poehler]

We'll work around Phoebe.

[Doug Peck]

That's a good.

[Amy Poehler]

Incredible.

[Doug Peck]

I'm working with Rico Nasty these days and Lauren Mayberry from churches and lots of up and coming people. Including, by the way, Haley is the biggest music fan in the world and she's always scouting and every once in a while she'll discover somebody and she'll tell me or she'll tell her manager to tell me. Like, make sure Doug does a lesson with that person because we want that person to start getting ready to tour and sing all the time. So some of the great people you haven't quite heard of yet, but you will. I had a student record her Tiny Desk concert today. Annie derusso.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my gosh.

[Amy Poehler]

Wow, that's exciting. Well, I love you. I love seeing you. I miss you very much. I hope we get. You know, we should let everybody know that our choir was called the Something Something Singers. And we did two shows. We did it for the Motion Picture Academy, the retirement home in la, and we did it for LA Children's Hospital.

[Doug Peck]

Can I show you my Hayley Williams tattoo?

[Amy Poehler]

Yes. Oh, that.

[Doug Peck]

That is Hayley Williams on stage at the Eras tour, spitting in the air in her trans rights top. I was like, I fucking love this woman so much.

[Amy Poehler]

So, Doug, you know, we don't ever get any talented pianists here, so could you finish our time by just playing us out?

[Doug Peck]

I'm gonna give you a little bit of True Believer, which is my favorite.

[Amy Poehler]

On this True Believer. Here we go. Sam, Do you like gadgets? I like gadgets, and I like them even better when I have them delivered from Best Buy on Uber Eats. I know, crazy. But when you use promo code BestBuy30 on Uber Eats, you can get $30 off all the must haves this holiday. And honestly, you'd be crazy not to. Everything from a PS5 to Nintendo Switch, even a Dyson Airwrap. All the best gifts delivered right to your door. And sometimes I actually gift them to people instead of keeping them for myself. Get all your must have holiday tech from buy on Uber eats and save $30 on orders of 100 or more with promo code Best Buy 30 ends 1231 terms apply. See app for details. Hayley Williams is here.

[Hayley Williams]

So happy that you're here. Oh, my God. I feel like I've waited for this my whole career, my whole life. I've been making music for 20 years so that I could finally get to you.

[Amy Poehler]

Wow. You know what? This is. I'm blushing because you are. When we made this podcast, we were like, talking about dream guests and were one of them.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God. I really don't know what to say to that.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, well, you better figure it out.

[Hayley Williams]

I'm thinking about it. We're rolling.

[Amy Poehler]

No, we. We were talking about having you on today and. Okay. I don't. I'm. I'm kind of nervous. What? I'm such a fan. I'm such a fan. Yes.

[Hayley Williams]

Thank you so much.

[Amy Poehler]

And as the kids say, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna glaze you.

[Hayley Williams]

I'm gonna glaze me, baby. Glaze me.

[Amy Poehler]

It's gonna be a glaze fest.

[Hayley Williams]

I'll glaze you back.

[Amy Poehler]

Are you on some, like, you're on it?

[Hayley Williams]

Well, like, basically a promo. I mean, I. This has been really nice. I feel like I've only had. I've only had to do the stuff that's been like. I've really felt excited to do, but, you know, it's like being on camp. It's just. I just feel like I'm on the Internet all the time and I. So I won't be on tour until next year, and by that time, hopefully I have a dumb phone and I just don't see the Internet or.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. How do you feel? I mean, your Jen has an interesting relationship with the Internet. It is like a love hate relationship, basically.

[Hayley Williams]

It is a love hate. I'm really addicted to it.

[Amy Poehler]

Me too. I feel like I thought maybe my generation was more addicted than you guys.

[Hayley Williams]

Really?

[Amy Poehler]

But you guys are the most.

[Hayley Williams]

We. Well, I Mean, how old was I when my mom. My mom was a teacher. So, like, a public school teacher.

[Amy Poehler]

Public school.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, you grew up. Did you grow up going to her classrooms and stuff? Yeah, it was the best.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. What kind of teacher was your mom back then?

[Hayley Williams]

She was teaching elementary school, like, second and third grade. And I never. She was never my teacher, but I. I went to that school and.

[Amy Poehler]

Same. Isn't it funny to have your mom as a teacher in the school?

[Hayley Williams]

Did you hang out at the school afterwards?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, we often got there early if we were going in with her or we'd stay after. And you kind of, like, see the other teachers? Yeah, after school, which is a trip.

[Hayley Williams]

It's such. It's like. It's like mean girls when they see Tina at the mall.

[Amy Poehler]

When they peek in and see Tina. The mall.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, it really is like that. I really. That resonated with me deeply.

[Amy Poehler]

I know. It does feel like you're, like, peeking behind the curtain.

[Hayley Williams]

Very.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, don't look at the wizard style. Right?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. When you came in, you asked about a mutual friend that we have. Yes.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

So we do have a mutual friend, and he's the most loveliest guy ever. His name is. What is his name?

[Hayley Williams]

Doug Peck.

[Amy Poehler]

So we have a thing on the show where we. At the beginning of each episode, we kind of talk. Well behind our guests back, and we talk to somebody who knows them and get a question from them to ask you. And we talked to Doug Peck today. You did? Yes. Love him. And he gave me a vocal warmup for us to do.

[Hayley Williams]

Shut your mouth. I. This is the best day of my life.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Hayley Williams]

And he.

[Amy Poehler]

And I kind of forget what he said.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay. Maybe I can. Maybe I can pick up on it.

[Amy Poehler]

He also, amazingly, had a piano right under frame that he started to play. And I was like, where is that coming from? But. Cause I was like, doug, I'm excited to talk to Haley. And he's like, okay. And he gave us. He said, one of your favorite warmups is that, like. Well, I think it's like, I'm afraid to do it, but it was like, ha, ha ha.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yeah. Oh, it's like with your belly. Because I really have trouble connecting to my diaphragm sometimes.

[Amy Poehler]

He asked me, how is your body feeling? And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, so let's do it.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay. So, yeah, so feel your. Feel your belly kind of bounce when you. Okay. And then you can add notes to it. So, like.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, that's it.

[Hayley Williams]

It really wakes up this whole, like, everything.

[Amy Poehler]

It does.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. It really helps.

[Amy Poehler]

We were just talking today about you, and, I mean, there's just. It's hard to not start with your voice, because your voice, to me. And here comes the glaze. Your voice to me is prepared for the moment is. It is its own country. It's like it has such an incredible history. Like, I feel like I've been a fan of it and you and your work for so long, and I've watched it change, and I watched. Oh, my God. And what I love about this new record, which I love, ego death at a bachelorette party, is the way you kind of play around with your voice. In my opinion, a confident way as someone who feels like they're ready to just kind of, like, see where their voice goes and play around with it. So I guess my first question to you is, when did you form a relationship with your voice?

[Hayley Williams]

Whoa. That's a cool question to think about. I think young. I was remembering this not too long ago, and I think this must be it. I would go to church with my mom, with my family as a kid, and I was a very anxious, stressed out little kid. And my mom and I kind of. She was in a not great marriage. It was my mom's second marriage, and I think I just had anxiety a lot. So we'd go to church and everyone would sing out of the hymnal. And they're not fun songs to sing, right?

[Amy Poehler]

Sure.

[Hayley Williams]

You know, it's boring when you're a kid, especially. But I noticed that my stomach ache would go away, and I couldn't explain it, but I just. I started singing. I started singing more to the hymns, you know, along with the hymns at church. And it just soothed me, you know, it, like, I think it grounded me and it slowed me down. And then obviously, you know, all these many, many years later and everything that I love to learn about the body and especially what, like, body keeps the score type stuff. I'm really interested in that. And reading about how the voice can tone the vagus nerve, which controls so much of this anxiety stuff and how we regulate it makes perfect sense. But I intuited that as a. I must have been. I mean, God, I must have been like 8 or 9 years old. That's really interesting.

[Amy Poehler]

Even just doing that thing we just did, right? Like, even the exhalation of breath, even that it is major when you actually do it, you realize, oh, I've been holding my breath.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean. And I do a lot of Sighing around the house. And I used to just think that was my personality, like, you know, as if I was over it. But I realized it was just an exhalation of anxiety. That was just basically it. I was just trying to get some breath.

[Hayley Williams]

And you are soothing yourself, like, your system by doing it. Yeah. I love that science. That's endlessly fascinating. And Doug, because he's a somatic voice coach, we do so many things that I think if you've never done that kind of work from the outside would look really weird. And I get up and I move around a lot during our lessons.

[Amy Poehler]

You're making me think of two things. One, which is. I often say and have said on this podcast, like, when I get to a party and I'm anxious, I like to dance. And I realize, of course, I like to just do exactly that kind of thing, like, shake it out.

[Hayley Williams]

That's good.

[Amy Poehler]

But the other thing is. And I want to talk to you about performing. You have written a lot of songs where you have to just, like, get to this note that maybe you wrote 20 years ago. Yeah. I mean, there's some version. It's like, okay, I could. You know, like, I gotta get to it. And I was saying to Dug it, like, it's. It's really hard to. It's like a high dive where everyone's. You know. And I'm thinking specifically of a couple moments, like, all I want.

[Hayley Williams]

All I wanted.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my. The anxiety.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, but you.

[Hayley Williams]

That's Doug.

[Amy Poehler]

But talk to us about, like, for example, the journey of. And for people who don't know, there is an amazing song, a Paramore song, and it hits a note that is, like, so satisfying for you to get. What is the note of that?

[Hayley Williams]

Is it a. I actually don't know.

[Amy Poehler]

Dug new, and I forgot Dug knows a.

[Hayley Williams]

Usually my sweet spot of, like, not too high. And I can keep doing this throughout. A show is around an E above middle C, which is, like. So if middle C is in the center of the piano, you're, like, right here.

[Amy Poehler]

So could you whisper that sound? You don't have to sing it, but could you.

[Hayley Williams]

So is it, like, like, from the song?

[Amy Poehler]

No, but it's.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. I don't have perfect pitch, so I don't think I could. Like, what. I don't.

[Amy Poehler]

I don't think I could pick it.

[Hayley Williams]

Out out of the. Out of thin air, but let's just guess. And then Doug can be at home and he can tell us. I was wrong.

[Amy Poehler]

I have a laptop, too. I can.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, so what's our. What's the note we want?

[Hayley Williams]

We want C above middle.

[Amy Poehler]

Cuz I think didn't even know that existed.

[Hayley Williams]

I think E is kind of where I end up belting a lot of Paramore songs, but I think all I wanted might be higher than that. And that's why it's always scared me, because it's just. Just my muscle memory.

[Doug Peck]

1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, four.

[Amy Poehler]

It.

[Hayley Williams]

It's. It's gotta be higher than that. C above middle C. But I think.

[Amy Poehler]

That E. I think that E is.

[Hayley Williams]

The one I might want to try. E above middle C. Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

E above middle C. Let's go higher. I don't know. Let's go higher. The laptop's gonna catch on fire. Okay, here we go. E above middle C. I think this is it.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay, no, that's a lower one.

[Amy Poehler]

That's a lower one. That's mid piano note.

[Hayley Williams]

I'm so sorry. Why do I think all I want. I think all I wanted is higher than this.

[Amy Poehler]

It was you. Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

You did it too. Come to a voice lesson. Let's get this down.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, so. But you. The journey of. And. And I let. Thank you for letting me digress into this before we talk about your record. But talk about, like, so you've got this note, for example, a note like that, and you're driving to it and you want to sing it on tour and you're deciding like, okay, I want to make sure. I want to bring this back in. And how do you then train for that moment?

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, I mean, a lot of warming up and warming down after shows.

[Amy Poehler]

I've already heard about warming down, warming down. Do you ever do it? No, I'm learning. I should do.

[Hayley Williams]

It really helps.

[Amy Poehler]

Can you read music?

[Hayley Williams]

No. I did maybe for a few years in my life when I took piano, but I got so bored with the theory part, I just wanted to play shit that I wanted to sing along to. So it's really. I really regret it when I listen to someone like Doug talk about theory and spout off this stuff that's so inherent to him as an artist and as a teacher. It's like, dang, I really should have stayed in piano lessons.

[Amy Poehler]

But it feels like everybody who quit feels that way. Like, it would have been cool if I just kept chugging along with the flute. I would have been such a badass.

[Hayley Williams]

Can you play any instruments?

[Amy Poehler]

No, I can play a few chords on guitar and, like, a song or two in the piano. And I used to play flute when I was a Kid.

[Hayley Williams]

You did? Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

And imagine if I could really.

[Hayley Williams]

Flute is chic.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, maybe. But you know what I liked about the flute? The most embarrassing part?

[Hayley Williams]

What?

[Amy Poehler]

Cleaning it.

[Hayley Williams]

Cleaning it.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm so sorry, but for those people. What's that process like at the end? You were like, I played it, and look, I didn't learn anything. But then you take it apart, I take it, unscrew it, and you had to clean all the parts and use special brushes, and you put it back in the flute case, and you were like, no, it's clean.

[Hayley Williams]

Does this translate to, like, other parts of your life? Do you like to clean and organize?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, very much so. Very much so. What's that like? It's like. It's like a way to, like, quiet. Like the ticky tacky. My brain is just like. Well, the seat's clean and it's in the box.

[Hayley Williams]

You gotta take that up.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, so little Haley's singing in church. Then you're. But you know how to play guitar and piano? How do you learn that?

[Hayley Williams]

Now I know how to play guitar, but back then, I think I probably only knew how to play piano. And I was learning to play the drums. You know, I saw one video of Zach Hansen on the television when I was a kid, and I was like, now I gotta play drums. And I. Yeah, I started playing eventually, and I would play at church, you know, Like, I think my experience of music when I was living in Mississippi was just so much at church because no friends. I didn't know anyone at school that wanted to play music. But, you know, there was access to instruments and things at the church, so.

[Amy Poehler]

And you moved to Tennessee when you were a teen?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And that kind of changed. Changed everything.

[Hayley Williams]

That kind of blew my world open. I mean, I met Zach, who's our drummer, the first day of this homeschool program that my mom put me in. I could. I tried to go to public school. I was such a nerd. I really got bullied. So I. I didn't make it very long there. It's okay. When I think about it now, I'm like. It was. My mom and I were on such an adventure. We had run away from Mississippi. This was like, you know, the. The great wide world. And I. I didn't really. Again, I got to this public school, and I was like, well, none of these. There's, like, one goth kid at the school that, like, will talk to me about music. And that was it. And then I met Zach the first day of this other program, and he was like, you gotta Come hear me in my brother's band and he's younger than me and I'm going like, oh, there are people my age that like to make stuff and that they. They see the world a little differently. And I'm not crazy.

[Amy Poehler]

I think it's always tender when bands come together, that first part, because it's like, what do you like? What do you like? And you guys were especially young.

[Hayley Williams]

We were so little. Who were you?

[Amy Poehler]

Who did you. You know how you kind of trade bands with each other to just test taste? Who did you guys both like, say that you liked? You know, in those early years, like.

[Hayley Williams]

I think Zach already had this. He already knew of a different world of music that I was not exposed to yet. And he kind of showed me that. And it was bands like Failure. It was bands like and you will know us by the trail of Dead. You know, like, it was hum. Who are who are playing shows next year. I just found out I probably won't get to see them because I'll probably be on tour.

[Amy Poehler]

But I know when you're on tour, you can't do anything.

[Hayley Williams]

I can't do anything even. Like, you bring out a band that you love, that you want to hang out and watch, and you're just like warming up while they're on stage, you know? But Zach just loved. I mean, Zach. Zach is the reason that I knew Elliot Smith's music as a really young kid. And, you know, I remember him making me mix CDs. So I got such a cool education really fast. He had two older brothers that also liked cool music.

[Amy Poehler]

A lot of people learn their music from their older siblings.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes. And I didn't have any older siblings. Same.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm the eldest.

[Hayley Williams]

Your eldest daughter.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. I knew it. I knew Capricorn too.

[Hayley Williams]

I heard.

[Amy Poehler]

Are you a Capricorn? No, I'm a Virgo, but. Earth Sign. Earth sign.

[Hayley Williams]

And I'm a Virgo moon.

[Amy Poehler]

Ooh, do you want your Leo Moon? That's why I have this podcast.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh my God, it makes so much sense.

[Amy Poehler]

I must, I must get. I must get some attention. So for people who don't know, like, you join. You met the people that would become members or founders of Paramore when you were a teeny tiny baby in high school. And you've been with this band for 20 plus years, touring all the time, making records all the time. And this record is your third solo record. And what is so interesting to me, and getting back to a question about your voice, is what is the difference between being the lead singer In a band, out on stage performing and being yourself performing without the band behind you.

[Hayley Williams]

Is that not the million dollar question? I do not know. Right.

[Amy Poehler]

Because it's a completely different set of skills. Almost it. I'm very.

[Hayley Williams]

I'm finding myself. Because we're planning shows for next year. I'm finding myself really nervous because I. I think I form for my own good. Really need to understand who I am outside of the band. Like, it's. It's time. I'm like, I'm looking at 40, it's not that many years away and I'm just like, I should probably know who I am outside of this entity. And I'm really. I'm very excited for shows and I do think that it might possibly subvert some people's expectations of, you know, what they think they're gonna get when they see me on a stage.

[Amy Poehler]

What do you think people think they're gonna get?

[Hayley Williams]

I think that with Paramore, I feel. And especially in the. In the later years, like more recently, there's been some kind of thing. I've note this feeling. I've noticed that I very much feel like a ringleader and that's not always a positive thing. I feel that, like, it's a huge responsibility to be a mouthpiece for a group of people.

[Amy Poehler]

That's right.

[Hayley Williams]

We're all very different individuals and I wanna speak for myself. Yeah, that's what I'm noticing.

[Amy Poehler]

I love that. And it's also. I have a version of a similar experience in that when I was in a sketch group coming up, I read about this and I was the only girl. Not that that matters, but it's something.

[Hayley Williams]

I think it totally matters.

[Amy Poehler]

It's something. So I really get it that you want to then decide. Okay, that's something I've practiced and done and I want to try something new.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes. Yeah. I feel like I'm really enjoying this part of my career because I actually feel like for the first time in my career, I'm talking to women. Growing up, there was just no women around.

[Amy Poehler]

There wasn't a lot women. When you were on Warp Tour.

[Hayley Williams]

No, you didn't.

[Amy Poehler]

You didn't have a real, like a great, great gang backstage. It wasn't so many that you could chill with and talk about.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, there were some really amazing ladies in the production office, of course. But then I was also like, you know, I mean, I was like pushing gear with the guys on a skateboard down a hill across to Meriwether Post Pavilion, you know, like. Like I wasn't Hanging out in the production office. I really think I. It. It is the only girl in a gang.

[Amy Poehler]

It is. And it's also like, you want to feel. You know, we could. We could talk about this part forever, and you would be the person to be able to talk about it with. But it's like, how does your. The gender that you identify as, how do you sublimate it through your work? How do you, like, kind of push it aside? How do you play around with it? Like, I feel like you have really cool ways in which you kind of play around with the masc and femme side of you.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, thank you.

[Amy Poehler]

But it's. But it. Sometimes you just. You need, like, the space to be able to do that, basically, and the safety to be able to do that.

[Hayley Williams]

The safety. That. That's the. That one hits me more, I think. I. The era that we grew up in, and I know I've already referenced Mean girls one time, but you think about.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, that technically contractual, you have to reference. Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Every episode.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Okay.

[Hayley Williams]

Have we done. We've done two now, so you're good.

[Amy Poehler]

I owe two.

[Hayley Williams]

You're not gonna get a phone call A million.

[Amy Poehler]

I like.

[Hayley Williams]

That was a time in culture that I do. I think more conversations were starting to happen. But to be. Whatever age I was 14, I think.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, baby. Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

I was a baby. And I was in that age range, you know, of all these people and, like, watching these social. Like this construct that happens. I feel that once I entered the band world and the music, the climate, especially for indie and more punk subgenres, it didn't feel safe to be a young girl. Maybe if I was an older woman, I would have felt differently. But I really shirked any aspect of me that was remotely feminine. And I didn't know this, but it really hurt me. I did it to myself. No one asked me to do that.

[Amy Poehler]

A lot of. We all did it. A lot of us did it, too.

[Hayley Williams]

Cause you're scanning, right? You're always scanning for the dangers. And unfortunately, in the industries that we're both in, there's a lot of them. And I think it took me until probably. I remember writing very neutrally in terms of my point of view. I never wanna give away lyrically that this is a young girl's point of view trying to be smart enough to make that happen. But it was probably our fourth album, which I have been in my early 20s by that point, where I started to play around with my femininity more. And I wasn't so ashamed of it. And you Know, if I ever felt sexy, I didn't, like, push that feeling away. And I. You know, because of that experience, now I'm 36, and I'm still noticing places where there's a lot of rigidity around my femininity. And I talk to my friends about this a lot. I don't. I mean, it's just kind of unfolding day by day. I. You know, you go through rough things in your life, and I think each time I come around to an obstacle, I'm like, okay, how do I do this better than the last time I did. I went through something like this, and somehow femininity is always at the core of the issue.

[Amy Poehler]

I so feel you. I feel like it's like a lot of deprogramming, a lot of, like. Like being just what you said, a little bit curious.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And not so judgmental. And just if you're 10% more aware of anything you're doing, you're. You're hanging in there because it's. You know, you don't.

[Hayley Williams]

You.

[Amy Poehler]

You can't, like, judge yourself for what you didn't know.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

When you were on tour, were there. Is there any women that come to mind that were kind of guiding lights or, you know, people that you met along the way that kind of felt like, oh, I'm going to take a. Notice them, and I'm going to kind of pay attention to what they're doing, and I'm going to learn from it.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. The second year we were on Warped Tour, Joan Jett and the Black Hearts played on the main stage, like, the whole summer, which is a brutal summer. It's a long tour, and I would catch them anytime I could. And we ended up in a photo shoot together for. I think it was for Billboard, and I kissed her on the cheek. I'm very shocked. I don't. If I, like, if we weren't doing this, I don't know when I would have ever met you, because I'm so. I just don't. I never. I never want to bother people, and I am quite shy when I'm not on stage. And I. I don't know. We were standing next to each other, and I just kissed her on the cheek. And I remember being like, I love her. And I didn't know anything about her other than she was in the Runaways, and I had a Runaways poster on my wall as a teenager. But I thought she was. I thought she was just. I liked her masculinity.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

I liked that she wasn't embarrassed to have that side of her as a woman. And she was also very sexy. So that was probably. Probably the first woman that I really like. Performer that I was really around for an extended period of time in my early career. And then just this year, I met Kathleen Hannah, and I told her. I was like, I haven't had many of these conversations. And it's so validating. It's so validating, by the way, to read books like your book and Kathleen's book, and read about women. I have my mom and my granny are these incredible women in my life that I've learned so much from. My mom and I are really close in age and all that, but I learned we have so much grace for each other, and I'm very thankful for those relationships, but I didn't have anything outside of my family to really, like, soak up. Yeah. Wisdom from other women.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. So I'm enjoying that proximity of them.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

And you must have. You must have felt that on the ERAS tour. Like, you got to be around all these incredible women and an incredible woman at the helm, and you just got to feel what it feels like to be in that matriarchal simulation.

[Hayley Williams]

Totally. It is a different. It's a different feeling altogether. I mean, there was just. There was a time, too, where we would go a whole year and I wouldn't see another girl on stage. And now when we. Now that we have the power to choose to make those choices, it's so nice to get to be intentional about that and to think about the conversations you might get to have backstage and what I might learn or what I might be able to offer another artist that, you know, that's maybe like, the Linda Lindas. I love those.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, I love the Linda Lindas.

[Hayley Williams]

I love them. And I just think that they're so smart and they're so aware, like, politically aware and not afraid. I think that it's very healing for me to see young teenage people be so bold about what they believe in and really confident in their playing and how they perform and their friendships. It's really healing to see that.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, you probably. I mean, I have a couple questions about the ERAS tour, and they're practical questions. They're like, what is it like to perform early in the day?

[Hayley Williams]

I love it.

[Amy Poehler]

It sounds amazing.

[Hayley Williams]

If I never. I've already told the team, like, if we get festival offers, please don't make me play after the sun starts to go down. I completely agree. Nothing good is happening out there.

[Amy Poehler]

First of all, you can be done by, what, 8, 39.

[Hayley Williams]

I want to have a normal dinner?

[Amy Poehler]

A normal dinner? This is what, Tina and I go on tour and we do like 4 o' clock and 6 o' clock shows.

[Hayley Williams]

What?

[Amy Poehler]

Babe, you can do a 4 o'. Clock.

[Hayley Williams]

I mean, you're the boss, so you can.

[Amy Poehler]

And guess what? People are going to show up and you can say to them.

[Hayley Williams]

Going to show up.

[Amy Poehler]

You can say, good night, enjoy your dinner. They're like, I'm, I'm in bed by 7:30.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh my God, that is incredible. I mean we did do that on the era.

[Amy Poehler]

So what at the, like you had a long stretch when you were with them. You in a bunch of different cities with Taylor Swift on the Error Store. What did you do after the show went well?

[Hayley Williams]

When we were in the UK, I loved this because, you know BBC. No, not BBC. E4. I can't remember what channel it is, but they play Goggle box. Have you watched Goggles?

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, I've heard of Goggle Box.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh God, Amy. This is my favorite show of all time. I just love you guys.

[Amy Poehler]

Explain to people what it is for.

[Hayley Williams]

People who don't know. So imagine Amy and I are like, we're watching television together and all these cameras are still here, which honestly sounds terrifying, but like it's just families and friends watching tv, like commenting on what they're seeing. And some of it is like soap opera time type shit and other times it's like Boris Johnson.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I see some like, I often see some clips of like heavy, beautiful scenes where like a young teen is coming out to his parents and then they'll show all the different reactions and you think like, oh, this very blue collar family is going to have a tough time with it and they never do.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh my God. England is just full of angels.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, according to Gogglebox.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, according to Gogglebox. It's very wholesome and I love to just, I can see, pop an eddy or two and just sink into a, you know, have some room service around.

[Amy Poehler]

Let me watch what people are watching. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Big news. Aldi is now on Uber Eats and you get 40% off your first order with code NEWALDI25. So whether your fridge is empty and you're too tired to shop or you just ran out of essential ingredients in the middle of meal prep.

[Hayley Williams]

Prep.

[Amy Poehler]

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[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

After you would chill out, you would not go out.

[Hayley Williams]

We went out some. We had a lot of days off too. And we would like. My favorite days were Portugal. We were in Portugal for like four days before the shows started. And we did one day on like this little boat. The guys and I all went out, our crew, everybody. I think there was like 40 of us, maybe 30 of us total. And we went out and we're not talking about like a yacht situation, but it was very cute. And we went out and we swam. Well, the guys swam and then we found out later it's like really not a good idea to swim in that water, but.

[Amy Poehler]

And you had the instinct to not go in?

[Hayley Williams]

I did, yeah. I don't want to be cold. I'm not a cold person.

[Amy Poehler]

You don't. You never do like a cold plunge or any of that.

[Hayley Williams]

You love a cold plunge. I know this about you and look how you're radiant.

[Amy Poehler]

Thank you. And it's not about the skin, although that's a nice buy point.

[Hayley Williams]

The skin is all I care about. The insides can be rotting out. Let my skin glow, please.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. It's good for inflammation. Oh, shit. I know.

[Hayley Williams]

I don't want you to tell me that.

[Amy Poehler]

And you know, you don't have to do it. You never ever have to do it.

[Hayley Williams]

Maybe soon, I think.

[Amy Poehler]

And honestly, it's really helped with anxiety and depression.

[Hayley Williams]

Really?

[Amy Poehler]

Yes. Because it. Talk about somatic. It flips on. You're like, fight or flight. Oh, it flips on some kind of. Oh, no, I'm gonna die. I'm so cold.

[Hayley Williams]

But how does that help?

[Amy Poehler]

Because the high when you're still alive is. Have you ever, like, thrown up on stage?

[Hayley Williams]

I've never thrown up on stage. I actually don't think I've thrown up from a show.

[Amy Poehler]

Amazing.

[Hayley Williams]

I blacked out on stage at acl, like the last album Cycle, but I didn't pass. I like, blacked out. Pink Panthers was on stage singing Misery Business with us, and I had this moment where I was like. I just went out for two seconds and I came back. It turns out I was sick, so I found that out later. But. But other than that, I've only had a few instances where, like, there was one time, Mexico. A festival in Mexico City. I almost shit my pants throughout. Ban blacked out at the same time.

[Amy Poehler]

I was going to ask. I didn't want to be rude, but I mean, how, after so many shows, have you not.

[Hayley Williams]

How have I not shit my pants? I really.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, I. I don't know. Every. Pretty much every singer I see, I assume that they've shit their pants.

[Hayley Williams]

Not on stage plenty of times.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, there's nothing you can do about it.

[Hayley Williams]

I think it's like. It's like when you're on your period and you go in the water, apparently.

[Amy Poehler]

It just, like, it just goes.

[Hayley Williams]

I think that's what happens on stage with me. It's just like, we're not doing this.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Wait until.

[Amy Poehler]

Women are incredible.

[Hayley Williams]

Women are so strong.

[Amy Poehler]

Women, most of the time, don't shit their pants. Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, most of the time. That's like a guy thing, actually. I'm sorry.

[Amy Poehler]

100 is true. I don't know any women today that have pooped their pants once. Any. No one here in the studio today. Today.

[Hayley Williams]

Not once. We should just all try it together once so we can know.

[Amy Poehler]

But it is. It is. It's super physical. And then the. The other. I have so many, like. Because I feel like there's a version where one must, like, disassociate and just kind of be in your world and sing. And other times where you want to feed off of the eye contact from people and is that just. You're just always adjusting with that or.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I don't know if I'm. I don't know if I'm fully present to, like, that awareness when I'm in it. Yeah, but I. I get such a rush. I mean, especially at a Paramore show, I usually recognize a lot of the people in the front. So we'll have a relationship then throughout that show where I'm like, I know you, I've seen you a million times and you're with me. But then I'll spot other people and I can really feel. It's almost like I intuit what the song means to them. I'm not thinking about what it means to me anymore. It's so healing. It's very liberating, actually, because I love to write about stuff that'll just make you so depressed, you know, like, I need to get that out. So to have an experience with other people that takes it away from me. Me is really. I. I really need that.

[Amy Poehler]

I think what, what's a song or a lyric or a moment that has been given back to you by a fan, like by. Or by someone in the audience singing it back to you, that's changed the.

[Hayley Williams]

Meaning of what you wrote. Oh, wow.

[Amy Poehler]

Because that's a very cool thing you just brought up. I didn't even think about it. I mean, to me, I, My, My question was going to be, what does it feel like to pass around all these like, feelings to people so that they can all, you know, they can all have their feelings about it and become detectives about it. But I realize there must be a gift also. And the way people sing the song back to you, tell you what they feel about the song, that it must change the meaning of the song. It.

[Hayley Williams]

It really. Does anything come to mind? Well, the first one that comes to mind is this song called Last Hope from our fourth album. Or we. We had a self titled record that came out when Zach left the band. He left the band with his brother who started the band with us when we were teenagers. And it was really. Taylor and I were writing and we were both really sad. And I just kind of also felt like, I mean, what does a band matter? You know, I really was feeling so existential about the whole thing and I can't remember. It's the lyric and the bridge. It's like the. The salt in my wounds isn't burning. Doesn't burn quite as much as it used to. I can't remember exactly the words right now, but it. I just remember writing it and being like, this is so sad. And that it unfortunately is how I feel. And I've really struggled with my mental health and kind of like, you know, I've wanted to not be here plenty of Times. And that song kind of expressed that in the moment. For me, having that at a paramore show that moment and feeling like everyone in the room has survived so many different things and we're all here, half of us will never see each other again. It really does something to those types of songs where I wrote them in such isolation. And now here I am having to, like, not only. Only be witnessed, but bear witness to all these other experiences that are. That have coalesced, and people are just.

[Amy Poehler]

Physically joyously singing that back to you, smiling and being like, thank you for writing that thing.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, dude, joy is really. Joy is a tough emotion for me because I don't trust it. I always think it's gonna. The piano is gonna fall from the sky, is what I say to Mike. It's just gonna. Going to hit me when I least expect it. And I think that's why Paramore shows, at least for me, that they feel so joyous, because I'm. I'm relying on a lot of other things. I'm not thinking so much about my own experience. And when we can transcend our own experience, it's like, for me, joy becomes more tangible. It's like I'm not controlling what's happening anyway. And this thing is being offered up. We're all kind of creating this energy together, and we just get to reach up into it and pull it down into our hearts. And it's very wholesome.

[Amy Poehler]

It is. I mean, it's very primal. It's very primal.

[Hayley Williams]

Singing with other people. Like, just the frequency of that in a room is powerful.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Can we talk about being. Shifting short?

[Hayley Williams]

Can we please talk about being short?

[Amy Poehler]

Both 5:2, according to Wikipedia. Are you. Are you a natural 5:2?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I am. In fact, one time I did the whole insurance thing. They come, they take your blood and all that stuff, and they were like, you're five, three. And I never let it go. It's on my driver's license.

[Amy Poehler]

Five three is on my driver's license, too, because they measured me at five three, which I'm not. I'm five two.

[Hayley Williams]

But I was like.

[Amy Poehler]

And they were like, five, three. And I was like, okay, thank you.

[Hayley Williams]

Super pumped. Oh, my God. I was so relieved, actually.

[Amy Poehler]

What's the thing about being 5:2? And what's a bummer?

[Hayley Williams]

Well, so. So my friend Daniel that I made the record with is probably like, six, three.

[Amy Poehler]

Isn't it funny that you don't know? Because anyone over a certain height, I'm.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, just a building. I don't like, I Don't know. I'm just walking through New York every day of my life. But we were. We were standing on, like, a porch of a house that was kind of like, on a hill. And then there were. There were chairs, and I was like, you're way up there, man. Like, you're like, we're already standing atop this little hill. And so I got on the chair, and I stood next to. I stood on the chair next to him, where I was even with him, and I felt so vulnerable to the elements.

[Amy Poehler]

I was, like, closer to the sun.

[Hayley Williams]

This is not. Not where I want to be.

[Amy Poehler]

No. Too windy up there.

[Hayley Williams]

It's too windy.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

I don't like to be cold.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

And I hate wind, if I'm being honest.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Get down under. Get down. Back into your short little stuff.

[Hayley Williams]

I just. I really felt scared for, like, a few minutes.

[Amy Poehler]

So I tip over. I don't know how tall people don't constantly tip over.

[Hayley Williams]

And it's, like, not our business what's happening up there.

[Amy Poehler]

It's not our business what's up?

[Hayley Williams]

No, I don't want to know.

[Amy Poehler]

It's like, if something's important, shout it down. But we don't need to go up there.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. I mean, really, though. I do, though, when I'm shopping. I hate being short.

[Amy Poehler]

It sucks. Every.

[Hayley Williams]

It's so embarrassing.

[Amy Poehler]

It's so embarrassing. Every pair of pants. You look like a little kid, like, swishing around in a little bit.

[Hayley Williams]

Danny DeVito ing around, you know?

[Amy Poehler]

Totally every. Nothing fits. Nothing is made for shorties.

[Hayley Williams]

It's really not. And now that I'm getting a little bit older, I'm, like, learning about, like, if my torso is the right length and if this part of my body, I'm just like, I don't want to know.

[Amy Poehler]

Do you have anything on your body that's long?

[Hayley Williams]

My dick. Perfect. But it's also really wide, which is like, what do I do with this?

[Amy Poehler]

Ladies love it. They've always told me, fold it and roll it and then prepare for one more glaze.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay. Okay, I'm ready.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, I actually don't know if this is the last glaze, but prepare for another glaze. Okay. But you are an artist that other artists, male and female, feel like you are a lot of people's favorite artists. Favorite artists.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God.

[Amy Poehler]

They love working with you. They have huge, tender feelings about being in your orbit. They, on stage, feel very like. Like they're kind of loving you in real time on stage, and you've worked with a ton of people who love working with you and would, you know, we'd be able to get 20 people to talk about how much they love you. Who right now, like, who do you. Who are your people right now? That when you get to see them perform with them, be with them, they feel like they're part of. Of a peer group that, like, lift you up and support you or people that are up on that you're hoping to support and bring along for the next ride, Man.

[Hayley Williams]

Well, I got to perform with the Linda Linda's in London and I felt really proud of them. I get to. I get to do more stuff with David Byrne this year. And I know that's gonna feel like. It's weird. It's interesting because Linda Linda's are younger than me, David's older than me.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, that's what I feel like. Being in your mid-30s, your 30s feels.

[Hayley Williams]

Like is you're really feeling a little in the middle.

[Amy Poehler]

In the middle, yeah. And, you know, if, you know, if your 20s are figuring out what you want to do, then your 30s are kind of figuring out what you don't want to do. And so you're kind of letting go of things that aren't working for you anymore. But that vacuum gets filled with cool stuff, like, and you're looking ahead and back. It gets. I mean, what do you think your 30s feel like or have felt like.

[Hayley Williams]

Honestly enjoying you talking about it? Because I. 30s are weird.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, it's weird.

[Hayley Williams]

Especially the middle of my 30s. I still felt very young. In my early 30s, like, I still felt very. What's the difference between 28 and 32? I felt like it was all the same. Something happened at 35. I started seeing myself, like, seeing pictures and being like, oh, that's different. But I also still feel sprightly and. And have energy and almost like a renewed passion that makes me want to, like, live it all up. Yeah, it's just a. I didn't expect 30s to be like this. Yeah, I mean, did I guess I want to know, what did you expect.

[Amy Poehler]

30S to be like? Isn't it funny when we're young? Like, when I'm old, like, what feels old? Because I'm here to tell you, I'm 54. I don't feel any. I don't feel old. But when I was a young person, if someone was like, she's 50, it would be like, oh, my. That's the oldest number I can think of. But it's so funny here to tell you from, like, sending you a dispatch from 54. I don't feel that different.

[Hayley Williams]

It really excites me. Yeah, it excites me because I see, like. Because being 36. When you say 54, maybe this is the age where, like, that doesn't sound old to me. That doesn't scare me. I think it sounds better than 36 and a lot of ways harder to.

[Amy Poehler]

Be in the middle.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, the middle.

[Amy Poehler]

The middle is hard. Hell is the hallway Life is a life is a highway but hell is.

[Hayley Williams]

The hallway we just wrote a whole song. No one's ever in any of those words.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. And then. And then the. The last thing I'll say is that I. I see in the. In the music world what happens a lot in. In the more like, actor, comedy world, which is women who are very, very different are kind of asked to be a. And they're all really different with different styles and different ways of approaching things. But you have an incredible. You're in an incredible time right now for just women in music. They're just dominating.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God. And so many styles. Exactly. Yeah. I'm really enjoying watching women on stages right now because of what you said. It's so many different personalities. I love Mannequin Pussy, I think.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, they're amazing.

[Hayley Williams]

They're amazing. A singer.

[Amy Poehler]

Talk about a voice.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we just connected over, like, just over DMs. And Missy was talking about losing her voice, and we were kind of, like, Kiki. Ing about that a little bit and talking about this initiative that she told me about, this no Music for Genocide initiative. And it's just so nice again, to talk to other women in music that, like, we don't have to be doing the same thing. We don't have to like the same music. Like, we can be on completely different sides of the musical landscape, but I feel so much less alone by engaging in it more, and it's so exciting. Also, I was just telling my friends this morning, I normally listen to. I like bands, and I like heavy music, and I like weird. I like all the stuff that's happening in Copenhagen right now.

[Amy Poehler]

What's happening in Copenhagen?

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, there's such a great music scene in Copenhagen.

[Amy Poehler]

What? Yes.

[Hayley Williams]

I'll send you a playlist. Oh, my gosh.

[Amy Poehler]

I would love it. Is it all. It's like heavy. Heavy Copenhagen.

[Hayley Williams]

No, it's not heavy.

[Amy Poehler]

It's a vibe.

[Hayley Williams]

It's a vibe. And I've always liked music from that. From, like, Scandinavian artists, you know? But also, I just, like, was listening to. I put on this Olivia Dean song.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Called Man, I Need. And I start. And I was like, oh, I know it. Cause I've seen the clips all over the Internet. And I started singing along to it and I started crying to it. And I think it's because it's so. It feels joyful, it feels very feminine. It's not. My mouth doesn't make those shapes very often. And my body like really responded to it. So I just. Yeah, there's so many different types of music happening right now that I'm so inspired by.

[Amy Poehler]

That's awesome.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, it's fun.

[Amy Poehler]

And what are you listening to, watching, reading? What do you do to laugh? What do you do when you want to get up? You know, get on the elevator and get up out of the. Like, what makes you laugh?

[Hayley Williams]

Wayne's World, it's my favorite movie of all time.

[Amy Poehler]

I watched how much. How great. Wayne's.

[Hayley Williams]

Can we please talk about it?

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, Dana Carvey was instrumental for me when I was. He was in, you know, like, you always kind of fall in love with the SNL cast that you saw when you were like 13, 14. And he. Him and Jan Hooks and like that cast, Phil Hartman. And Mike Myers was an improviser who came out of the theater that I studied at. So Mike was a kind of an example of like, one of us can make it.

[Doug Peck]

Wow.

[Amy Poehler]

He kind of came up through that system, that Chicago system, and got on snl. So those two were. And. But what do you like about Wayne's World?

[Hayley Williams]

I.

[Amy Poehler]

Why does Wayne's World make you laugh?

[Hayley Williams]

Well, so my parents were really young and I, I think that's why I got to grow up on stuff like that from the early, early 90s or the late 80s. And I thought that's how we would dress when we became adults. I was like, this is how adults dress. We wear fishnets under denim, ripped up shorts. We wear flannels over Aerosmith T shirts. And I literally dress like that. I mean, I just. Movie has. It's like the Godfather to me. Like, I quote that movie all the time.

[Amy Poehler]

What's your. One of your favorite scenes in Wayne's World?

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, this is good. Well, it's probably the Dreamweaver scene. It's probably when they first see Cassandra.

[Amy Poehler]

And that gorgeous woman played by Tia Carrera.

[Hayley Williams]

Tia Carrera, my queen.

[Amy Poehler]

Incredible. And Chris Trager's Rob Lowe is in Wayne's World. Rolo, as we like to call him.

[Hayley Williams]

You know, I did not like Rob Lowe until much later in his career.

[Amy Poehler]

Because he was bad in Wayne's World. Like, he was the villain In Wayne's World.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes. I believe Parks and Rec was my. Was the redemption tour.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, so we'll finish with Doug's two questions because they were great questions. So Doug had two questions for you. And by the way, make sure you check out Wayne's World.

[Hayley Williams]

If you haven't seen Wayne's World, what the fuck? Honestly?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Do you have to bleep curse words? No, you don't.

[Amy Poehler]

We don't have to bleep on this. Oh, my God. Fight the power. Yeah. Incredible. It's so incredible.

[Hayley Williams]

Freedom.

[Amy Poehler]

Freedom. Okay. He had two great questions. One was. You know how Batman has a symbol in the sky that calls Batman? Yeah. What would Hayley Williams symbol be?

[Hayley Williams]

I mean, it can be anything.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Hayley Williams]

Do you know in Wayne's World, when they're driving in the Gremlin and it's the middle of Bohemian Rhapsody when the guitar. It, like, kind of breaks down and the camera pans up and there's like, a car on top of a pole? I think it's a car. It's like a sign for something. And it. It would be like that, but it would just be the Gremlin. It would be way too far, and it would have a glow behind it. You would see it in the SK and be like, gotta go.

[Amy Poehler]

Gotta go.

[Hayley Williams]

It's time. You know what I mean?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Gotta get in there. Gotta get in that world.

[Hayley Williams]

It would be like that and. And very faintly, from a distance, Bohemian Rhapsody might even be playing. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

What's your favorite part of Bohemian Rhapsody?

[Hayley Williams]

It's so you think you can spin? That's my favorite part.

[Amy Poehler]

Of course. And then the. The. The next question, which is wild, is, what. What is the last song that you want to hear before you die?

[Hayley Williams]

Okay. Oh, no.

[Amy Poehler]

I know. And you're. And. And do you feel like you would know it?

[Hayley Williams]

Staying alive. That was always my funeral song. But I suppose it would be kind of cool to go. Go out to it as well.

[Amy Poehler]

And you don't want to add an extra layer to it that is supposedly the beat that you're supposed to do CPR to stop staying. That's when we learned CPR was like, ha ha ha ha. Stay in the lab. Stay the lap.

[Hayley Williams]

And then.

[Amy Poehler]

Then breathe into their mouth.

[Hayley Williams]

Whoa.

[Amy Poehler]

So that might be what you want to hear. Doug, you got your answer. Well, I hope this isn't too embarrassing, but we're going to do a cool down with our straws.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yeah. With our straws.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Here's your damn. Doug has really taught you.

[Amy Poehler]

He gave us. He gave us A cool down. And now I only want to do it with straws.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

Can you talk us through it?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. We do a few different versions. And it honestly has been a moment since I've done it, which is hence why I was saying I need to start doing it at night. But I think the whole idea is go. Normally you're going from here, here, building up, kind of up your range. Now we're going to close. We're going to shut it down.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, great.

[Hayley Williams]

Let's start, like, not too high, but just.

[Amy Poehler]

That's a little too low. Hayley Williams, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. That was lovely. That felt really good.

[Hayley Williams]

It did.

[Amy Poehler]

And I love you, and I love your voice, and I love spending time with you.

[Hayley Williams]

I love you so much.

[Amy Poehler]

There was a lot of real fans that just happened there. I'm gonna really unpack on my way.

[Hayley Williams]

Way home, and I. I'll send you a playlist.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, please. Because we need to know what's going on in Copenhagen.

[Hayley Williams]

You're right.

[Amy Poehler]

Because I'm. I'm embarrassed about how little I know what's going on over there.

[Hayley Williams]

We need to get over there.

[Amy Poehler]

And don't think that for the rest of the week, I'm not going to dine out on the fact that Haley Williams told me there's a lot of music going on in Copenhagen. I'm going to say it at least 10 times. 10. Tell everyone. You know, people might meet at the gas station. It's hot.

[Hayley Williams]

The block is hot in Copenhagen. You got to tell them.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm going to drop that like it's nothing. Like, I'm just going to say it so casually, I'm not even going to make eye contact.

[Hayley Williams]

Hands in your pockets. Cigarette appears.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. Friends for life. Okay, bye.

[Hayley Williams]

Bye, guys. We're going to stay here, but you're going to go.

[Amy Poehler]

Thank you so much for coming, Haley. You are. Well, you're into my new bed, best friend, whether you know it or not. And we'll be friends forever. It was so fun to see you. And. And I just want to say Haley talked about a lot of amazing musicians and. And people that she loves to work with. But for this polar plunge, I'm just reminding everybody about two things. The great Kathleen Hannah, who, you know, started Bikini Kill and Latigra and is an incredible activist and musician and instrumental for so many women's careers. Such an inspiration, I know, for me and many other people. And the Linda Lindas, a band that Kathleen has supported as well as Haley forever. They are just this really super fun. Great musicians, great vibe. I got the chance to work with them in a movie I directed called Moxie where they were playing at the and they're just, they're just so fun. So check out music from the Linda Lindas. And always bow down to the great Kathleen Hannah. And thank you, Hayley Williams, always, for all that you do. Can't wait to see what's next. Okay, thanks. Bye. You've been listening to good hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by the Ringer and Papercut Kite. For the Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaia McMullen and Aleya Zaneris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miller.