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- [00:00]
Brené Brown
One of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have and we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because you know, when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self compassion than what you have. They get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah, but when I tell people I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself, people get hostile.
- [00:39]
Jonathan Fields
So what if daring to be open and real unlocked not just your greatest potential, but also pretty much everything good in every relationship or experience you could ever have? What if the thing that so many of us fear most that others will discover how flawed and human and real we are, is actually the gateway to the life we so desperately want to live? And what if choosing courage over comfort opened the doors to a world and a life you never imagined? These are just some of the questions that I dive into with Brene Brown. So Brene has spent the last two decades studying the transformational power of vulnerability. Author of six number one New York Times bestsellers, Brene's really inspiring research on courage, worthiness and shame has enlightened millions worldwide. And a research professor at University of Houston, she's a leading voice on topics like empathy, resilience and living a wholehearted life. Her groundbreaking TED talk on the power of vulnerability has now been viewed over 60 million times. And I really love Brene's ability to translate complicated academic concepts into just accessible language and stories. And speaking of stories, she is a deeply compelling storyteller who will draw you in, then open your heart in no small part by sharing hers with you first. In fact, the conversation that unfolded between us moved both of us to tears at various points. Brene was so beautifully real, raw, candid and wise. As a best of episode, every part of this conversation is as relevant today, maybe more so given the current climate, than it was the day we talked about. As Brene notes, there is incredible power in the willingness to be seen in owning our stories. We can own our lives. A willingness to face uncertainty, vulnerability and emotional exposure together is what allows communities to truly connect. So listen in as Brene and I explore the courage and compassion that emerge when we dare to be open, real and seen. The conversation that unfolded really did leave me changed and Perhaps it will inspire you to pursue an idea you've kept to yourself for too long. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
- [03:00]
Commercial Voice 1
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- [03:59]
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- [04:10]
Brené Brown
Ooh, that looks fun.
- [04:12]
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- [04:16]
Brené Brown
On what you're building instead of what your supply closet is missing. In short, we take care of business so you can do more with yours. We're the Walmart you love now for your business.
- [04:26]
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- [04:32]
Jonathan Fields
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- [05:01]
Brené Brown
I'm excited to be here. Thank you.
- [05:02]
Jonathan Fields
One of my fascinations with you is you present. So like when I first saw your TED Talks, I was blown away, as were millions and billions of people you present as this radiant, wise, snarky, funny presence. And I'm always curious When I see that somebody, somebody who's so strong and so powerful and so full of life. Is this something that you sort of like stepped into later in life or were you the kid who sort of manifested this also?
- [05:32]
Brené Brown
No, I was not a. Definitely, I was not the kid. I think I stepped into it much later in life and I think what I stepped into was understanding that the weird introverted pattern seeing person that I was. What I stepped into is a sense of I like that person and I. And I want to be that person and. But I think I dreaded being that person growing up. I think I, I thought something's off face because it's not like, you know, I grew up watching, you know, I went to Greece 25 times when it came out, you know, like I wanted to be that person. I wanted to be Olivia Newton John with a cigarette and a cat suit, you know, winning over John Travolta. Like, I, I didn't want to be the. I didn't think, you know, I'm awesome, I'm 13. I'm going to be a qualitative researcher and study things. Scare the shit out of people. Right on. You know, I thought, like, I want to date with a quarterback. Yeah. Because that's how I was raised. And so the things that. About me that I love now I Were painful probably then like I've always seen things in patterns and I didn't know that there was like a job like that. That's what qualitative researchers do. So I just thought maybe I was a part of the underworld or something. Or something that it was like, I thought it was weird and I didn't fit in, really. Didn't have a sense of belonging, I mean, which.
- [07:04]
Jonathan Fields
Which is probably a more common experience than most people own up to.
- [07:07]
Brené Brown
Yeah, I think that makes me in the majority for sure.
- [07:10]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [07:11]
Brené Brown
I just. Yeah.
- [07:12]
Jonathan Fields
At what point do you start to realize in your life that that in fact that does make you in the majority.
- [07:18]
Brené Brown
When I started doing this work, I mean, I think that's, that's the gift of doing this work, is that I know, no matter how bleak the feeling, how desperate the feeling, how weird the experience or smell or idea that none of us are alone some. I did a radio show on Wisconsin Public Radio a couple days ago and a caller called in and shared a Thich Nhat Hanh quote with me that just brought me to my knees. It said, our purpose. And I'm kind of probably gonna butcher it a little bit, but our sole purpose here is to get over the illusion of our separateness, you know, And I think that's what my work is like. We're all in this together. And I had no idea that the things that made me feel so much on the outside were the things that would ultimately, when I stepped into some self worth, be the things that connected me the strongest to other people. Does that make sense?
- [08:17]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean, I think it does. I'm curious also whether it was an evolutionary experience for you to realize this or whether there were moments, you know, were there sort of like decisive moments or experiences with people or things that made you say, okay, I'm starting to get that there's a different way to live in the world and I want to be a part of figuring that out.
- [08:39]
Brené Brown
No, there was decisive moments.
- [08:41]
Jonathan Fields
There were.
- [08:41]
Brené Brown
Yeah, I'm not like a slow unraveling kind of person as much as I would like to be. No, there was a moment. I mean, I can picture, I know what I was wearing. Like it was in November of 2006. I was at my wooden red painted breakfast room table. I was sitting at the table, I was coding a bunch of new data, asking this new question for the first time, going back into the shame data and saying, well, okay, I understand what shame is and I understand how that operates in our lives. But what about these men and women who are living wholeheartedly, like, who are really all in? What did they have in common? And I had giant, you know, those post it notes that are poster size. I had them all over my kitchen and my living room. I was writing down words and basically what emerged from that process were two lists. Like, here are the behaviors that the wholehearted folks are engaging in, and here's what they are trying to let go of. Here's what they're trying to move away from in their lives and then move away from. List was. It was as if someone described me on a list. Like I was every. I called it the shit list. I was everything on that list. Judgmental, perfectionistic, all work, not only no play, no rest, but kind of disregard for play and rest and people who thought it was important.
- [09:58]
Jonathan Fields
So you're coming at it from this like, science mind, Let me just figure this out. And then you're looking at this, you're like, oh my. This is personal.
- [10:06]
Brené Brown
Oh, I. I was devastated. I couldn't believe it. I just remember folding my hands up on the top of the table and putting my head down and just thinking. Because, you know, I think up until that moment and then the work that followed, I trusted my professional self immensely. But didn't trust my personal self as much. So I knew that I. I know I'm a good researcher. And so I knew if these words were emerging, like these qualities were important, these choices, doing something creative, you know, like, that's a great example. Like creativity emerged as so important comparison emerged as the shame counterpoint to that. And I was the most comparative person you could. I mean, every. I was always comparing myself to other people and I was scoffing at creativity. Like, people would say, hey, do you want to go to a painting class with me or do you want a scrapbook? And up until that moment, I would say.
- [10:59]
Jonathan Fields
No.
- [11:00]
Brené Brown
I thought it was flaky and self indulgent. And I'm not really do that kind of crap. I'm busy working. So, yeah, it was. There was a moment that sort of shifted, so.
- [11:10]
Jonathan Fields
And actually I want to kind of go a little bit deeper there. But before that for. You use the word wholeheartedness a lot. Talk to me about that. What is it? What do you mean when you use that, that phrase?
- [11:21]
Brené Brown
I was trying to figure out a word, one of the. I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means we take. We develop theory from people's lived experiences, and then our primary job is to language it in a way that resonates with people. And so I was trying to figure out what's a word for people that I would describe as all in. Who are just really living and loving entirely. And wholehearted is language. And actually in the Book of Common Prayer that in the Episcopal Church that we use, and there's this line that says, I have not loved you with my whole heart. And that was always very powerful for me when I said it. And so the word that came to mind was wholehearted.
- [12:08]
Jonathan Fields
So. Which is kind of fascinating right there too, because you're taking some. A term which comes from a place which is very. Not scientific. It's very faith based.
- [12:17]
Brené Brown
Super faith based.
- [12:17]
Jonathan Fields
And then you're bringing it into your world, which is totally linear. Like, prove it or, you know, it doesn't matter. You know what happens. You know, like, how do you measure that?
- [12:28]
Brené Brown
No, it's true. And I've received a. I got a lot of flak from it too.
- [12:32]
Jonathan Fields
From. From the academic community. Huh?
- [12:34]
Brené Brown
Yeah.
- [12:35]
Jonathan Fields
Just for the use of the term.
- [12:36]
Brené Brown
Yeah. You shouldn't name constructs. Things are. That are immeasurable. And so that was hard for me because, you know, one of the things I talk about in the TED talk is that I used. I had a. A little sign in my office when I was A doctoral student te that said, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.
- [12:56]
Jonathan Fields
Right.
- [12:57]
Brené Brown
And I loved thinking that we could live in that world. Now I have a sign above my study that says, if you can measure it, it's probably not that important.
- [13:04]
Jonathan Fields
I love it. Well, it's like the shadow side.
- [13:07]
Brené Brown
It is a shadow side. And so I think I didn't care at that point. I just felt like I was onto something that was super important for me personally. And it resonated with me. And you know what, what else would you call it? Social adaptability. It's not, that's not what I was looking for. I was looking for wholeheartedness.
- [13:29]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And it's something that the common person.
- [13:31]
Brené Brown
Yeah.
- [13:32]
Jonathan Fields
I mean, I'm sure there's, there's enough ambiguity so that people can kind of like say, like, this is how I feel. Wholeheartedness applies in my world, in my life. But there's enough universality to the term that I think people just kind of get what it's about.
- [13:44]
Brené Brown
Yeah. And I think that's. I think that's my job as a researcher. Like one of the things, I've never really talked about this before, but I think you're interested. You'd be, as the uncertainty person, you'd be a great person to talk to about this. That there is one of the greatest losses, I think, that is happening in our world today is that academics are shamed for accessibility. I mean, it makes me teary eyed because it makes me think how much great information we're losing. Even whether you buy into it or if it's real or not real. We're losing the debate in the discourse because to be accessible is some kind of really, like, albatross. It's like if you're accessible and people understand your work, that means you're not very smart. And so to me, so basically you're.
- [14:35]
Jonathan Fields
Writing only for people that are in rarefied air. And if you're, if the average person on the street can understand there's something wrong with what you're doing.
- [14:43]
Brené Brown
Right. And there's, I mean, and really there's like interesting journal articles that say, you know, the average academic journal article, the average one, not the one that makes it into the Times or something, is read by 10 people. And then I think eight of them were probably just checking to see if they're referenced in it, you know, and so to me, I had no interest for that. For this reason. It's an interesting backstory when I did the shame research because I'm A qualitative researcher. I would sit down, like we're sitting down and collect data and talk to people about their stories. It was the first time I'd ever done research when people, when we were done with the interview, looked at me pleadingly and said, when you figure this out, you're going to tell me. Right. And my answer in the beginning was, no, I'm going to publish it in something that you'll never have access to.
- [15:26]
Jonathan Fields
Ouch. Right?
- [15:27]
Brené Brown
That was my. I didn't say that, but that's what I thought. And then I thought, you know what? I'm not going to do that anymore. You know, I don't want to. I don't want to spend my time. I mean, I still have to do it, and I probably should do it more, but I don't want to spend my time doing something that's not, in my opinion, moving people forward. And if I can't pick it up and read it and my friends can't pick it up and read it, and I have to look up words in the thesaurus to sound smart, I'm not doing it anymore. It's not why I'm here. It's not in service of my work. And my faith is really an organizing principle in my life, and it pushes up against that value. So that's kind of how wholehearted I was scared at first.
- [16:11]
Jonathan Fields
I would imagine it would be.
- [16:12]
Yeah.
- [16:13]
I mean, because you're really bringing two worlds together in a way where each world probably has substantial doubt about. Sure. Like the validity of the other one. And also. And like you said, especially because you operate and you're on your living, like in an academic setting. So, you know, that's gotta bring on a lot of fear. It's like, yeah, am I gonna be drummed out of my profession? That am I gonna, like, just. Am I going to be still there? But I'll be the laughingstock of my profession for the rest of my career. Versus, Is this work so powerful that it needs. It's the work that I can't not do and it must get out. Yeah.
- [16:46]
Brené Brown
And I think it's interesting because grounded theory in itself is very controversial, I think, in a lot of academic places, because you don't start with existing theories and prove and disprove them. You start from people's lived experiences. You often come up with conclusions that bump up hard against what's already established in literature. So. And I love it because Glaser and Strauss, who developed the. I think they were like, spirited in terms of my approach. They said use names that resonate with people. And so one of the ways we measure the accuracy of our theories is resonance fit do people see themselves in their lives and their stories and the narratives that you're creating with your data? And I love that.
- [17:26]
Jonathan Fields
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
- [17:33]
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Jonathan Fields
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- [17:38]
Brené Brown
Santa. Santa, did you get my letter?
- [17:40]
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- [17:41]
Jonathan Fields
I'm not.
- [17:42]
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- [17:43]
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- [17:46]
Jonathan Fields
He handles the nice list.
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Jonathan Fields
Right.
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Jonathan Fields
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- [18:11]
Jonathan Fields
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- [19:37]
Jonathan Fields
The entrepreneur in me and the writer in me looks at that model, and that's actually. That's the model that actually builds the most successful businesses. But it's the exact opposite model that most entrepreneurs start with. Most entrepreneurs get an idea for product or service or solution, and then they go looking for a market and then they're like, okay, who are the people that we can sell this to? And whereas, you know, rather than saying, okay, let me just reach out to a community that I feel like I want to be in service of and have really deep, intense conversations with them, and maybe I'm part of that community, you know, so let me start with my own experience and then with the experience of people in this community and find out, what are they feeling, what are they not feeling, what's the conversation that's already going on in their head, and can I build messaging and solutions around that in a way that can be.
- [20:23]
Make me of further service to them.
- [20:25]
And in doing so, create a living, a career, a business that builds around that. And in my experience, I love that those are the people where not only individually do you really come alive, but those are the businesses that have profound impact in the world. And that kind of catch fire because you're. You're not trying to sell something to anybody. You're simply caring about them so deeply that you take the time to understand what they need and then just giving it to them. And so many times people don't do that. And so really. So from the business side, it's this. It's this interesting overlay with what you're saying, the approach to how you research.
- [21:06]
Brené Brown
I have never thought about that until this exact second, but I love that. And I think it's exactly grounded theory, because what's interesting, I never thought it. Entrepreneurship, I think of. I've got some. A really cool thing, right?
- [21:18]
Jonathan Fields
Exactly. I mean, go find somebody who wants it.
- [21:20]
Brené Brown
Yeah. But in grounded theory, there's the whole. The whole thing is. It's called trust in emergence is the axiom. Trust in what emerges from the data, trust in people's lived experiences and their perception of those experiences. But what you do is you. The goal of grounded theory is to find out what is the main concern of a group of people. You Want to know about, know more about. And then your theory should explain how they're trying to continually resolve that concern. So it's very much in line.
- [21:52]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's.
- [21:54]
Brené Brown
It's kind of like theory, entrepreneurship. I like it.
- [21:56]
Jonathan Fields
No, it is. I mean, like, the really good entrepreneurs know that, you know, you come in and you're probably going to start out, you know, there's. We're human beings, so there's no way we can start the process without certain assumptions.
- [22:06]
Brené Brown
Right.
- [22:06]
Jonathan Fields
You know, like, they're just going to be there. But the most successful people will always be the ones that are open to serendipity or open to the market. Proving them wrong and then listening to what the market says is right and then deciding whether they actually want to.
- [22:19]
Brené Brown
Create that or not. It's the exact same.
- [22:21]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. So it's got. Now I want to learn more about, like, sort of like your whole methodology.
- [22:25]
Brené Brown
No, I will. I'll give you something on. Because it's exactly the same. And in fact, you evaluate a theory that's a grounded theory. One of the codes we live by is. And it's so much in line with entrepreneurship, now that you've pointed this incredible thing out, a theory can never be as good, is only as good as its ability to work new data. So, like, a business would only be as good as its ability to address the evolving and changing needs of the market.
- [22:57]
Jonathan Fields
Right. Which is where a lot of bigger companies get in huge trouble because they started and maybe they were actually really started, they understood the pain points, the needs of a market when they started, and they served it beautifully. But markets aren't stationary things. They're living, breathing beasts that move and change and morph. Especially in the last four or five years, we've seen that in a profound way. And I've talked to so many people who are past the, what you probably consider classic entrepreneur, like real big, established businesses and their businesses are shrinking fast and they're just thinking we're going under rather than. Well, no, actually, all the assumptions that we built around are no longer valid. So we actually, we don't have to just keep trying to, you know, like, work on that same model. We can actually look for where the pain points and the conversations have moved to and see if we can adapt to what we do and how we do it to those new needs. A lot of people don't want to do that. They're so vested in the way things work and they. They are terrified. And this is. I'm so curious what you think about this. Also, most people who start businesses, they start them and they accept there's a certain amount of uncertainty and risk and fear and anxiety and all this stuff and failure. And very often it's because part of the dynamic is they don't have a.
- [24:16]
Brené Brown
Whole lot to lose in the beginning. Right.
- [24:17]
Jonathan Fields
Then they built something substantial. Now they do have a lot to lose. So when I was talking about like that business that now has to adapt to whole different thing now that they're in a place where they don't have. There's a lot to lose if they sort of like guess wrong or they become incredibly fearful in a way that they didn't, or they're not able to.
- [24:38]
Move through the fear and the change.
- [24:40]
And the uncertainty in a way that they were much more able to when.
- [24:45]
They started a business.
- [24:45]
Which really ties in, I think, with a lot of your exploration of vulnerability.
- [24:50]
Brené Brown
Yeah, you're going to be hard pressed to get me shaking loose this parallel between business and. I'm so obsessed with it now. It's so fascinating because, you know, the axiom again of trust in the emergence is I think what I've seen in my experience talking to businesses and talking to not just entrepreneurs but big corporations is they don't. They don't trust in the process that brought them success.
- [25:14]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [25:16]
Brené Brown
They start to trust in the product of the process. Right. And they lose their trust for the process, which is trust and emergence. Trust the people you're serving. And so the same is true with researchers. Like, for me, the minute I say I don't care what emerges from this interview with Jonathan, I've already got a theory out there in the academic literature. This has got to hold up. And the minute I shift, my work is dead. It no longer rings true. It's not innovative, it's not exciting. And so. But, you know, Barney Glaser, one of the founders of grounded theory, calls it the drugless trip. You have to have a real oak. You have to have a real comfort with uncertainty and vulnerability to do the kind of research I do. You lose a lot. Like, I mentor a lot of doctoral students and sit on a lot of dissertations for grounded theory folks who get halfway through and think this is too uncertain. I want to go back to the. Take an existing theory, prove or disprove it with data, write it at be done. I don't want to do. I don't want to trust an emergence and let something new and that we haven't talked about yet emerge. I don't have the stomach for it. You Know, and so. So for me, the vulnerability piece. And I get that because I was that person.
- [26:31]
Jonathan Fields
And so I think we're all that person.
- [26:33]
Brené Brown
We're all that person. Yeah. And that's important because.
- [26:36]
Jonathan Fields
Right.
- [26:36]
It's. It's not like, you know, I mean, maybe there are these freakish people, you know, they. This really thin slice of humanity that just doesn't feel it, or their brains are softwired in the beginning to process it differently. But most of us, it hurts.
- [26:48]
Brené Brown
It does hurt. And, you know, and to say I wasn't one of those people is exactly against. Like, I have the four myths of vulnerability in daring greatly. And the first one is that it's weakness.
- [26:58]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [26:58]
Brené Brown
You know, and I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And so I think one of the reasons we lose tolerance for it, or we don't. We can't sit with the process is because we've been raised to believe that being vulnerable and walking into a meeting with funders or whomever or whatever your situation is and saying, I don't know. I mean, some of the most incredible examples that I read and include in the book are about business people who stand up in front of their leadership and say, I don't know what to do next. And you may know more than I do. I need your help. That's powerful.
- [27:43]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And that is the single most terrifying thing that I think any leader could do, but also maybe the most powerful thing they could do simultaneously. Like you were saying, though, people think it's all, if I do that, I'm weak.
- [28:00]
Brené Brown
Right. Pete Fuda, who is a leadership. He's a researcher in Australia and Sydney, and he studies transformative leadership. He does long case studies over five and six years studying leadership and how it transforms with an organization. And he has this great article that was in Harvard Business Review where he uses metaphors to talk about what transformative leaders share in common. And one of them is the snowball. And he tells the story of a CEO, a new CEO who kind of came aboard and was very directive, very instructive. And things really started unraveling and he decided to kind of risk vulnerability and stood up in front of, brought all of his leaders together and said, I'm getting feedback that my style, the way I communicate and give you feedback, is pushing innovation down. I need your help. I need to know how to be better at this. I need to know how to work with you. And what Pete found in his research, not only in this case, but across the. The cultures he was studying, is that it created this huge snowball effect if those leaders in turn felt permission to stand with their teams and say, I can't do this without you and those people. And then it created this thing that took off through the culture. And what it shook loose was it got so big and fast, the momentum of it, that it shook loose all the drag that people that were not willing to say, I need help, I don't know, I'm in over my head, couldn't hold on anymore in the culture. Is that fascinating?
- [29:37]
Jonathan Fields
It's amazing. And it also really speaks to the top down, you know, like, idea that it all comes from the people that are at the very tip top, you know, like if that one person, you know, like if you have a CEO and, and she or he doesn't actually say, okay, I'm owning this myself, nobody else in an organization will own it. And the reverse is true too. You know, like, same snowball, effective. That person steps up and says, yeah, I don't know which way is up right now, but we're all really smart. Let's see if we can figure this out together. I mean, and it's so funny too, because I've had so many conversations, I'm sure you have also with sort of management teams, leadership people, and they're like, well, how do we get the people under us to buy this or to act in this way or to create in this way? And like the first question, well, are you behaving in that way or acting in that way? Like, no, no, no, this isn't about me, right?
- [30:30]
Brené Brown
It's like, naturally it is, right?
- [30:31]
Jonathan Fields
You know, everything that you say, and this is as a parent, you know this, right?
- [30:35]
Brené Brown
That, I mean, that's like, hello, you.
- [30:37]
Jonathan Fields
Know, like, you can't say do this if, like, then you're doing something completely different because your kids can look at you and be like, right, so same thing in organizations, it's the same dynamic. But people don't see that.
- [30:47]
Brené Brown
No. I think one of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have and we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because, you know, when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self compassion than what you have, they're like, they get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah, but when I tell people I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself, people get hostile.
- [31:30]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I bet.
- [31:31]
Brené Brown
Because people want to say, you know, that's crazy. I love my kids way more than I love myself. And it's often the parents of very young children who say that. What's interesting to me is it's the parents of teens who say, oh, God, I get that. Because what happens is fourth, fifth grade, certainly middle school, beginning of high school, when our kids start to become us in some ways or we see our partners. The things that bug the crap out of us about our partners emerge in our kids are the things that bug us about us. That self compassion or that compassion turns to judgment. Like, what do you mean you didn't have anyone to sit with at lunch? And rather than saying, oh, God, I remember that, let's talk about that. You say, well, pull your hair back and wear some of those cute outfits I bought you. And then maybe your friends will want.
- [32:23]
Jonathan Fields
To sit with you.
- [32:24]
Brené Brown
And that's your stuff.
- [32:26]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, And I think we've all. It's like, you know, like, as you're saying this, I'm like scanning right now. I'm like, okay. I like, consider myself a pretty compassionate, open, guided. I'm like, I'm sure there have been so many things where I've just reacted without even realizing that I'm reacting because of a cap on my own capability to deal with my own stuff. And it's manifesting in my response to other people, which is it's not easy to own then.
- [32:54]
Brené Brown
No. And I've done it. I mean, people say, well, we can't all be shame free all the time like you. And I think to myself, I've never been a parent and not been a shame researcher. I mean, I started just around the time my daughter was born, right before. And I've done it because we're human. And I think that's why I think, you know, I talk a lot about the gifts of imperfect parenting. I think it's those moments where, I mean, I remember telling Ellen one time she. She was doing this whole thing about she wore a side ponytail. She came home with a different ponytail. I said, hey, what happened to your side ponytail? She said, oh, I took it out because my friends thought it looked terrible. And I said, but I thought you loved it. And she said, yeah, but, you know, they gave me a hard time. And so I went into the whole, like, you have to do what you love, not what other people think. And Then five minutes later, I'm telling Steve, you've got to pull the Christmas lights out of the yard. What are my neighbors gonna think? And Ellen's five feet away from me, you know, and she said, I don't understand. I said, I don't understand what? She goes, the ponytail, the lights.
- [34:04]
Jonathan Fields
Huh? You know, I'm like, she's keeping you honest. Yeah.
- [34:06]
Brené Brown
I'm like, oh, my God, you're right. It's just rhetoric. You know, if I tell my daughter, your body's beautiful, you know, our value would probably be to say something like this, it's the body that God gave you, and it's strong and wonderful and, you know, and then she walks in and I'm using a lot of hateful self talk about my genes not fitting. Which one do you think matters the most? But it's the same with leaders. If leaders say to teams, hey, we want innovation. So we all expect failure, fail often fail quick, clean it up and move on. But they see a leader scared to death of failing, scared of trying, scared of being uncertain or vulnerable. Then the messages, that other stuff is lip service. This is about perfection. And even if it stifles creativity, we can't be wrong.
- [35:04]
Jonathan Fields
Right? So one. So one of the big things is that people perceive vulnerability as weakness. And it seems like the answer is you gotta own the change. And you basically have to say, okay, but I mean, how do you do that? I mean, if you're somebody where you're, you know, let's say you're a leader, you're a parent, you're just a creator, you're an artist, you know, and you want to do something and, and you're, you're terrified of being vulnerable. You're a human being living in the world who's terrified of, of opening up and revealing who you are. You know, like going into the uncertainty, the risk.
- [35:38]
Brené Brown
Yeah.
- [35:41]
Jonathan Fields
How do you make that jump?
- [35:43]
Brené Brown
Well, I think, I think the first place is, I mean, and it may be different whether you're a cognitive person or a feel your way through person, but I think for those of us who think first and feel second, which would be me, I think getting clear on what vulnerability is and isn't is really important. For this reason, 12 years of research, I cannot find a single example of courage, of moral courage, spiritual courage, leadership courage. I cannot find a single example in our data of courage that was not based on sheer vulnerability. And so I think one of the things we have to do first of all, is dispel these myths, I mean, and get clear in our values. I mean, for me, I don't. It doesn't hurt less when I get criticized, when I put myself out there or when you put yourself out there. People who are trying to, you know, during Great Lease from the Roosevelt quote.
- [36:39]
Jonathan Fields
You know, one of my favorite quotes, by the way, as soon as I saw 10, I was like, I know where that's from. You do? Totally.
- [36:45]
Brené Brown
I love that.
- [36:46]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [36:47]
Brené Brown
It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points at the strong man as he stumbles or how the, you know, points out how the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to those of us who are in the arena who, I mean to totally paraphrase, getting hurt, their asses kicked, sometimes falling on our faces, failing, sometimes victorious. But at least when we're failing, we're doing greatly. I think when I talk to people who've made the transition from. I really want to put these homemade journals on Etsy, but I'm really afraid to do that. I really want to ask my boss for this promotion or this raise. I really want to share this idea. At the PTO meeting next week, when I asked people, where did you muster up the courage? How did you the courage to do this? The answer was always. I got very clear that being courageous was more important to me as a value than succeeding. And so to me, it comes down to an area of your work that I think is so important. Really serious intention setting and a very clear values alignment. You know, And I think it is very necessary to have people in our lives who, when we dare greatly, when we're vulnerable, when we try something new and it doesn't work out and we come up short who are willing to look at us and say, but you were brave.
- [38:18]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I think those people, having those people around you, and I'm sure you've experienced the same thing. I've had so many conversations with people where they said, I don't have those people. What do I do? Because every time I do this, everybody around me lines up and says, told you so. You're an idiot. You know, like, I knew you were going to fail. Which is kind of interesting because to me, one of the potential great equalizers there is technology. The potential to use technology to flatten the world and find people like that. And it's not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood. You can hug and kiss and like, just have a cup of coffee with. And it's not the same. I would love to say it is because you know, like I live and breathe in that world a lot. It's not but I think it helps to have access to a small group of people who may be dotted in five different countries but they're deeply committed to each other and share the same value set to me. I've seen that help people who live in a small town somewhere and are in a family where that approach to life is completely rejected. But I think it's a very. It's a tough problem.
- [39:26]
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
- [39:32]
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Jonathan Fields
Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.
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Santa.
- [39:38]
Brené Brown
Santa, did you get my letter?
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Commercial Voice 1
He's talking to you, Bridges.
- [39:40]
Jonathan Fields
I'm not.
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Commercial Voice 2
Of course he did.
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Jonathan Fields
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Brené Brown
Visit t mobile.com Walmart business is in the business of helping your business regardless.
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Brené Brown
Ooh, that looks fun.
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Brené Brown
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Learn more@business.walmart.com we all remember the choices that shaped the course of our lives in business. World renowned venture capital firm Sequoia Capital calls them Crucible Moments. Their podcast brings you inside the pivotal decisions that define some of today's most influential companies Hosted created by Sequoia's Roloff Botha Crucible Moments Season 3 pulls back the curtain on the untold stories behind companies like Zipline, Palo Alto Networks, supercell, and more. Hear about the make or break decisions, early stumbles and leaps of faith that turn scrappy startups into market defining forces. Once you're caught up on season three, check out some of the episodes from seasons one and two with guests like Steven Chen of YouTube, Tony Xu of DoorDash, Steve Huffman of Reddit, Brian Chetzky of Airbnb, and more. Tune in to Sequoia's new season of Cruc to discover how some of the most transformational companies of the modern era were built. Crucible Moments is available everywhere you get your podcasts and@CrucibleMoments.com go listen to Crucible Moments today.
- [42:04]
Jonathan Fields
One of the things that I look at is I think a lot of times part of it is what we tell ourselves, but I think a lot of it is the questions we ask ourselves also around our ability to sort of unlock action in the face of perceived weakness and vulnerability. I think so many of us, all we focus on is what if I fail, right? Rather than what if I succeed, right? And what if I do nothing? Which is very often the most terrifying answer of the three.
- [42:32]
Brené Brown
No, there's no doubt, and I mean something you said about people who are surrounded by communities who are critical, I told you so. You are so stupid to do that. One thing that I think it's really important and I feel ethically bound to say to people a lot of times about the work is be clear that when you start to dare greatly, when you start to be vulnerable and take chances, you are going to be holding a very uncomfortable mirror up from people. And a lot of times if you're surrounded by people who say I told you so or who are critical, it's because daring greatly to watch someone be vulnerable and risk to watch someone walk headlong into uncertainty is so uncomfortable for people who are not willing to do that that they're dying to see failure and to point it out as confirmation that my way of living is okay. And the whole dotted around like I think there was a group of women, we call ourselves the Love Bombers. There's a group of women, they are artists, photographers, writers. I got a call one day from them probably five, six years ago. They said, you don't know us, we know you from online. I think you read our blogs, we read yours. We're going to Gather together on the Oregon coast. Would you like to join us? And I was like, oh, hell no. Like, that's not, you know, like, I was voted, like, least likely to show up with a group of hippie girls. That's smoking clothes, like, and doing art. Like, I was like, no. And my husband's like, I think you might need this. I was like, are you kidding me? He said, I think you should go. And it really changed my life because again, it was technology. And I totally agree with what you said. When I'm throwing up in sick, these are not the people who hold my hair back. They're not the people who bring the casseroles over during hard times. But they are a group of people who. Where we made an agreement that we would be vulnerable and brave together and that we would create a space for each other where we never had to shrink when we were really proud of what we were doing, our successes. And we never have to puff up when we were feeling small and ashamed that we were all going to be brave together and take our licks. And, you know, and so I think that's really important. It was life changing for me. And so I think if you are in a small town, I think World Domination summit.
- [44:51]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. Great example. I mean, I think a lot of people go to that just because they fly from all over the world because they can't find those people. And it's like the one time every year where they can like be on the ground with like minded people and then they take that with them. I think a lot of things can start out digitally. Yeah. And then it'll. It stays in sort of this ethereal, kind of supportive level.
- [45:13]
Brené Brown
Yeah.
- [45:14]
Jonathan Fields
But then you can meet somebody and spend three days with them and then when you leave, it's a very different dynamic.
- [45:18]
Brené Brown
It's totally different.
- [45:19]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [45:20]
Brené Brown
I mean, and I think, yeah, like I would have never. I don't think I've ever done. I know. Before or since anything like I. My talk at Pearl Domination. Like, I would never have tried something so crazy and out there had I not been, you know, around people who are there to explore how brave am I willing to be.
- [45:40]
Jonathan Fields
Right.
- [45:41]
Brené Brown
You know, and so I do think there's something about that. I think one of the other myths about vulnerability that you pointed that you touched on was the idea that we can go it alone. You know, that's still, even, even in a world where people are pretty awake and conscious about connection, it's still a very highly regarded ideal. You know, this is where I quote White Snake in The book, you know, like right, here I go again on my own. Like we all want to.
- [46:14]
Jonathan Fields
I love your case to music as like an old Rush, you know, like, yeah, fanatic.
- [46:19]
Brené Brown
Yeah, I'm a Rush fanatic too. And so, yeah, that's one thing that's so fun about the book. People are like, mostly guys were like, dude, you quoted Rush.
- [46:28]
Jonathan Fields
I love the ultimate philosopher, Neil Peart. I know world peace.
- [46:34]
Brené Brown
I think he could bring world peace.
- [46:35]
Jonathan Fields
I think so.
- [46:38]
Brené Brown
But no, I think this idea that we can go it alone and that I think we need people not only to support us, but I think we need people like to try on vulnerability with. To try it on and say, hey, Jonathan's pranay. And I think I want to do this. I did that with Chris going back to WDS world domination summit. Like the night of rehearsals. I was there, you know, I said, I'm seriously thinking about closing by doing a duet with you from the Glee version of a Journey song. And he was like, no. And his wife was like, yeah, there's no way he said we're going to do that. And I'm like, okay. Then I thought, okay, good. I was like, okay. So I just kind of moved away from it. And then I hear him like from the backstage go, but you are writing a book called Daring Greatly, so are you gonna do it or not? And he's like, I'll do it if you do it. And. But that's what I mean by trying it on. Because there was no doubt. I was seriously afraid. I thought it would. I put it at best 50, 50 that anyone else would sing along. And I thought, are you gonna be okay if it's just you and me the whole time? And Chris goes, it's gonna be a long song if that happens. And I'm like, well, I'll tell the guys, the AV guys to fade out. But it was a thousand people, uh huh. Standing on their chairs, you know, in the aisles, playing air guitar. It was fun. And so.
- [47:54]
Jonathan Fields
And it turned into an extraordinary moment as it could transcend.
- [47:58]
Brené Brown
It was one of the best moments of my life. I mean it was.
- [48:03]
Jonathan Fields
And I think, I mean, that's part of the message, right, is that that's what you miss out on when you're not willing to go to that place. It is.
- [48:10]
Brené Brown
And I read everyone, you know, because I still get, you know, comments from people that are like, don't stop believing or suck it. You know, like I still get those, but every now and then there'll be a comment like, that's the cheesiest thing I've ever heard of. And it doesn't. I feel total neutrality about that. Not even the need to defend it or anything. Because my thought was you weren't there because it was from people who weren't there. You didn't share that with us. And that's okay, right? Because if you were there, it was fun, you know, and we sang together like we were 13 in the back of a car sneaking out on a Friday night.
- [48:51]
Jonathan Fields
So.
- [48:53]
Brené Brown
But I think you have to have a tribe to try on that stuff with.
- [48:58]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I totally agree. It's almost impossible for a lot of. Not everybody. I think some people are kind of wired, you know. I think so.
- [49:07]
Brené Brown
Yeah.
- [49:08]
Jonathan Fields
But I don't think that's most people. I don't.
- [49:10]
Brené Brown
And I, you know, I think the other thing that's important about that tribe that has really shifted in for me in the last year is I no longer really even. I have no intake at all of any feedback or criticism from anyone who's not in the arena. So unless you are in your own capacity, in your own world, in your own life, getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in what you have to share with me about my work.
- [49:40]
Jonathan Fields
What flipped that switch?
- [49:44]
Brené Brown
A profound respect for myself and other people who are out there trying to do work and trying to walk into uncertainty and vulnerability and are really risking because it is so easy to make a life and a career out of sitting in the bleachers and making fun of people and putting them down. And so I think a profound respect for those of us who are out there. And what I realized too, in my own life is the people who are doing that, who are in their own arena. I don't care what it is. You don't have to be a writer or speaking in public. I don't care if you're a teacher. You know, like my sisters are teachers. You know, in my opinion, they walk in the arena every morning at 7:30. Right. And so what I have found not only as my personal life, but professionally is the people who are in the arena and who are showing up and letting themselves be seen give feedback that is far more constructive and far more helpful and mindful about what people can hear and not hear. And I mean, and I love, I mean, I'm an academic at heart, so I love debate and discourse. I love it when people email me and say, saw your talk. Parts of it I liked. But you were completely remiss in not mentioning these three areas of the literature. How can you talk about vulnerability without quoting so and so about closeness or something. I love that. That makes me better. It makes my work better. People who make fun of me or make fun of other people or say hateful things, people who say, I feel sorry for your kids. You know, people who say, if I looked like you, I'd embrace imperfection too. That. Those kind of comments that you get. You know, I just. I hate to get binary because it's not. It's who I'm trying not to be, but I'm still that person in some ways. And I really do believe you're either making the world a better place or you're making it a worse place. I don't feel like there's a lot of neutrality, and that's probably a little hard ass line to take. I don't want to sound like you're either with us or against us. Not my favorite quote or, you know, perspective, but I do feel like every day our choices have a huge impact on people. And someone told me this could be urban legend. I don't know, maybe, you know, but I heard that Oprah Winfrey has this quote on her door. But it's a quote that I love, and it says, you're responsible for the energy you bring into this room. And I think people are responsible for the energy they put in the world. And a fake avatar and a fake name, and leaving a comment somewhere is not benign because I'll keep putting my work out there, and you will probably keep putting your work out there. And several people we know will probably keep. But there are people who have amazing gifts who could make the world an incredibly better place, who won't put their work out there for that reason, you know, and that's a loss. And whether we know what that work was or not, we miss it and grieve it every day. There are songs that we need to hear. There's stories that need to be heard, there's work that needs to be seen, there's ideas that need to be implemented that we'll never see or know because there's so many people out there who are so reflexively cynical and critical and mean spirited. I don't like it.
- [53:34]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah?
- [53:35]
Brené Brown
Do you like it?
- [53:36]
Jonathan Fields
You know, it's something that I deal with every single day in my life. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I roll out of bed and I sit and I meditate for 25 minutes. And part of that is because it helps me enter every day with that sense of equanimity and the ability to when needed, zoom the lens out more and look down on myself and. And get a better sense for when I'm reacting or responding with deliberation and intelligence. It's still a really hard thing for me to do because I'm an emotional person, Because I operate so much of the time as a writer and behind the veil of anonymity that a lot of people had that you were describing the online world. I get attacked and I just say to. I'm always saying to myself, would this person stand in front of me in a room with my kid next to me and say the same thing? Right. And I've got to believe that the answer would be no. I want to believe the answer would be no because I want to have that level of faith in humanity. But sometimes I. But it's not easy. And I know, to your point, I know I've had so many conversations with people who do not bring the art in their soul and their heart to the world because they know that there are people out there who will attack them in very, very mean, vindictive, spiteful ways. And part of. I guess my exploration has been to the point that you were making before. I've always been fascinated with the phenomenon of people who are even within your close inner circle, your family, your closest friends, either publicly or secretly rallying to see you fail.
- [55:24]
Brené Brown
Yeah.
- [55:26]
Jonathan Fields
And I think a lot of what. So I try and reframe, I try and understand. You know, I once heard, you know, maybe it was something that I read or an interview that I saw with the Dalai Lama where they asked him what his greatest fear was, and his greatest fear was losing compassion for the Chinese. It blew my mind, you know, And I'm just singing to myself, if. If I can try and practice compassion, meditating compassion on a daily level in a way that tries to allow me to step in the shoes of that person who is being this way towards me or towards someone I love. Maybe that's the beginning for me, but it doesn't make me okay with it. I would love to say it does. I would love to say I just. I'm good. I meditate, I do my mindfulness, and I experience it and then I let it go. But I don't. I'm human, you know, and it hurts. But far better that than living in the great twilight that knows neither victory nor success.
- [56:29]
Brené Brown
But I think that's the thing. I think I've seen the pain and talked to people about the pain of having the anonymous critic, but also having the family who's rallying for failure to have the partner who's just chomping on the bit to say I told you so, to have the children who are looking at you with disappointment, you know, But I don't think I've ever seen. The greatest pain I've ever seen in.
- [56:55]
Jonathan Fields
My work.
- [56:57]
Brené Brown
Has, is from people who have spent their lives on the outside of the arena wondering what would have, what would have happened had I shown up. That's a pain that to me, maybe it's because I'm. I'm 46. Has become a far greater fear of mine than having to dodge some hurt, you know, some hurt feelings sometimes. And yeah, the. What. What if I would have shown up and been sane.
- [57:33]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And I'm in the same place and same age, by the way. I love it. Yeah, me too.
- [57:39]
Brené Brown
I wouldn't go back for a lot of money.
- [57:40]
Jonathan Fields
One final question as you wrap this up. So the name of this project is.
- [57:44]
Called the Good Life Project.
- [57:45]
And so when I. When you hear that phrase and. Or if I ask you the question.
- [57:50]
To you, what does it mean to.
- [57:51]
Live a good life, what comes up?
- [57:54]
Brené Brown
Gratitude. Yeah.
- [57:59]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [58:07]
Brené Brown
I think for me, a good life is one. A good life happens when you stop and are grateful for the ordinary moments that so many of us just steamroll over to try to find those extraordinary moments. And so to me, my good life is soccer practice and carpool line and Tekkens and date night. And that's a good life for me. I mean, and, and knowing that it's good and acknowledging and stopping that it's good and saying this is good. I love that. Yeah.
- [58:58]
Jonathan Fields
Hey, before you leave, if you love.
- [58:59]
This episode, safe bet you'll also love.
- [59:01]
The conversation we had with Elizabeth Gilbert about bringing your whole self to your life. You'll find a link to Liz's episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A 7 second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered. To reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
- [60:05]
Commercial Voice 2
Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.
- [60:07]
Commercial Voice 1
Zoe, this thing weighs a ton.
- [60:09]
Jonathan Fields
Live with your legs man.
- [60:10]
Brené Brown
Santa.
- [60:11]
Commercial Voice 1
Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you British.
- [60:14]
Jonathan Fields
I'm not.
- [60:15]
Commercial Voice 2
Of course he did.
- [60:16]
Commercial Voice 1
Right Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here.
- [60:19]
Jonathan Fields
He handles the nice list.
- [60:20]
Commercial Voice 1
And elf, I'm six three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?
- [60:30]
Commercial Voice 2
I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister and AT T Mobile there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone.
- [60:36]
Jonathan Fields
Or give it as a gift.
- [60:38]
Commercial Voice 2
And the best part? You can make the switch to T Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.
- [60:41]
Commercial Voice 1
Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.
- [60:43]
Jonathan Fields
Kimber.
- [60:44]
Commercial Voice 1
The holidays are better. AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with three four monthly bill credits for well qualified customers plus tax and 35 device connection charge. Credit balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel financing room 256 gigs830 eligible port in a new line, 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line.
- [61:04]
Commercial Voice 2
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- [62:05]
Commercial Voice 1
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- [62:36]
Commercial Voice 2
Can I make my site softer?
- [62:38]
Brené Brown
Can I make my site firmer?
- [62:40]
Commercial Voice 1
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