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- [00:01]
Jonathan Fields
Hey. So my guest today is award winning chef, writer, teacher and gatherer of people, Samin Nosrat. She wrote the iconic book Salt, Fat, Acid Heat and starred in the beloved Netflix series of the same name that really changed the way millions of people understand food. And now she's back with a new blockbuster book, Good Things, which celebrates the power of simple meals and shared tables and the essential role of community in a life well lived. But our conversation? It's about something much bigger, like life. Some highlights include a moment of unexpected rebellion that just cracked open a lifetime of swallowed emotion and sparked a new sense of self. Or a surprising truth about achievement that reveals why doing the quote right things can still leave you feeling just deeply empty and alone. Or a subtle but powerful shift in how you think about time that can reshape the way you live and love and work and gather in a simple weekly ritual that becomes a lifeline back to connection, belonging and joy. A these are just a few of the threads we explore, really, in a conversation that feels tender and honest and human. It's about the quiet moments that shape us, the loud ones that shatter us, and the small, consistent acts that stitch us back together. It's about letting yourself be seen and letting others in. And it's about reclaiming joy and meaning and presence in the most everyday of ways. This conversation moves through life's big transitions. Identity, fame, depression, friendship, weekly dinners and the meaning of a good life. And the healing power of sharing time and food and presence with people you cannot get enough of. It's wide open and intimate in the most beautiful way. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
- [01:48]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
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- [02:10]
Jonathan Fields
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- [03:00]
Samin Nosrat
I really loved talking to you last time.
- [03:02]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I've learned since our last convo also that you and I have some kind of weird overlaps. Oh, cool. So out of the gate, I open up your gorgeous new book. And of course it's gorgeous. Cause it's you. And I'm looking at the photo opposite the intro page, and it's this old blue notebook that's obviously really well used. And sitting on top of it is a Blackwing Palomino pencil.
- [03:22]
Samin Nosrat
Oh, I love them.
- [03:23]
Jonathan Fields
And I'm like, okay. Like, that one choice says so much about who you are as a human being. And by the way, I'm holding up right now, this is. This is one of my.
- [03:33]
Samin Nosrat
That's the volumes.
- [03:34]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. This is one of the Shepherd Fairy Blackwing. I love those pencils.
- [03:40]
Samin Nosrat
They're so good.
- [03:41]
Jonathan Fields
There's something magical about them. I don't know why.
- [03:43]
Samin Nosrat
I mean, they're just a delight in that. Like, they look different and they feel so good. But also, the lead is just a dream. Yeah, I kind of. At some point, I was like, I know they're expensive, but I just can't have any other pencils.
- [03:57]
Jonathan Fields
I'm the exact same way. All right, we've established that we're both nerds around writing and writing implements and things like that. I was listening a little bit earlier this year, actually, to a conversation that you were having with your dear friend Rishi on this song Exploder podcast. And you were talking about a moment where you were on a visit to Vassar, potentially looking at it as a place to go. A friend invited you to this Ani DiFranco concert, and you heard for the first time this song, Untouchable Face, that kind of changed your life and let you feel deeply and expressly in a way that you hadn't in a really long time. I actually had Ani on the podcast.
- [04:36]
Samin Nosrat
Oh, amazing.
- [04:37]
Jonathan Fields
Over the summer.
- [04:37]
Samin Nosrat
Amazing.
- [04:38]
Jonathan Fields
And we were talking about how music can change people. One of her older songs I was listening to just before I sat down with her. And I was sharing how I was literally hiking in the mountains listening to this song, and I was just weeping as I was walking. And I'm like, this song was not written for me or to me but it was. There was something so powerful about it. Your story of how you were moved by this one song, it just really stuck with me. Can you share a little bit about that moment and what led up to it?
- [05:10]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah. So I'm the child of Iranian immigrants, and I, you know, I think one sort of fundamental thing that I learned as a young kid was do your homework, study, get into a good college. Like, that is the most important thing. And so I really took that to heart and I did that. And I ended up at a really sort of like, academically rigorous school and high school, which was just sort of like, made to send kids to, you know, high end colleges and universities. And at some point, I decided I wanted to go to Vassar. I had a friend who had gone there. I heard about it, sort of became my dream school. And so I applied and I got in, you know, and this was this thing, like, I had been told, like, study, go to school. Like, that's the thing. So I sort of, like, held up my end of the bargain. And then as this sort of, like, date was approaching of the decision of someplace to go, I think it was dawning on my family that I really wanted to leave. And my grandfather, like, who my great nobody. In so many ways, I was this sort of, like, typical older immigrant child who had to, like, figure out a lot of things for myself. And so, a lot. Everything about applying for college and what college to go to, I was just, you know, it was not family guidance that was getting me there. It was curiosity at school and asking teachers and friends. And so I think if finally they were like, oh, she's gonna leave, and that's not okay, like, with our family culture and our values. And so my grandfather told my dad, like, you have to tell her she can't go. And so we went on this. There was sort of like a. I was like, well, we gotta go see the school. My dad took me to visit Vassar, and he dropped me off and I stayed with my friend, and she was like, oh, we're gonna go to this concert tonight. And I was like, okay, whatever, like. And so it was this person, Ani DiFranco, was singing, who I didn't. I wasn't familiar with. I didn't know. And here I just felt like, ooh, I'm on a college campus. And so we go to this concert. I'm not familiar with this music at all. And then at some point, probably either. I think toward the end, I'm guessing toward the end, she starts playing the song Untouchable face. And I'm sort. I don't know the word. So I'm just sort of like trying to pay attention and everyone starts singing along. And there's a point where she says, you and your untouchable face. And that just felt so, like, transgressive. Because here I was just this like goody two shoes, like, following the rules, pleasing all adults. You know, I was like, what? We're in a chapel and she's saying you. You know, like, but it was. It just like the room filled with this energy. And so it sort of became like the anthem of this trip, which sort of soured. The trip sort of soured. And like, while I had a really nice time with my friend and I sort of was spent the whole weekend envisioning myself there, you know, unbeknownst to me, my dad was sort of collecting things to use, like against the school as an argument. And so that when we returned he was like, no, no, no, this place is far too liberal. Like, you need to stay home and go to ucsd. And I kind of knew inside that if I did that there was just something in me that I was like, I'll die. I'll die. Like, maybe not really, but like something inside of me will die. And I knew I had to get out. And so there was just this very long ongoing family schism, I guess, that happened over where I was going to go to school, which I know on the one hand sounds so privileged and like crazy to have this sort of meltdown about like, which top tier school you're going to go to. But it also was the only thing that I had been told to do. And like my whole existence had been about fulfilling this thing I had been told to do and I was doing it. And then at the last second, like family members who like, had really not been very interested or like curious about anything about my academic life, like, all of a sudden we're then going to take that away from me. And it just felt like so threatening and so scary and ultimately led to like an estrangement with my dad for the rest of my life. And so there was just this way that the song. I never said anything bad. I only did good things, you know, like, and there was this like, bad word in a song. And I was sort of discovering my own capacity for anger and resentment at my parents who to me I had only ever listened to and obeyed and tried to please. And so there was a way where this song became representative of that moment and also sort of that like ongoing sort of like, period of young adulthood in my life. It was a real shift for me. But I think a big part of it was like a discovery of this part of myself that I didn't know I had.
- [10:07]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. It's like, oh, there's this feeling that sometimes probably rises to the level of rage inside. That's like, I've done everything right. I've checked all the boxes, everything that's been asked of me, I've done. And I got the thing at the end of it that was supposed to be the reward, and now it's not being offered to me. And it was like this moment in you where you're just like, this is not okay.
- [10:31]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah. It felt such a betrayal. And the song was just such a beautiful.
- [10:35]
Jonathan Fields
Right. It's like I can express this. Like, I can feel it, and then I can actually let it out. Like, that's real, it's raw. So many of us, I think, have those moments. Here's a bigger curiosity around this also. So fast forward, right? Like, years go by Berkeley, you're going to the world of food. This stunning phenomenon, salt, fat, acid heat comes out seven, eight years ago. You end up creating something that. I'm going to make the analogy, you might be uncomfortable with it, that, like, Ani went out into the world and actually changed, touched millions of people's lives, too, or at least brought moments of joy and deep connection. And I would imagine for a lot of people, reconnection to people that maybe they were estranged from back into their lives as that was happening. And I asked Ani this question. I was like, how did it feel to be somebody who creates work that does that? And she was just kind of like, in a way, it's like, it wasn't me. I'm curious what your experience was of being behind a phenomenon that landed with people that move people like that.
- [11:43]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah, I, I, I agree with that. I think I have sort of two parts of it. One is I made a book. I made this thing and I put it out in the world. And I always was pretty clear, once I put it out in the world, it wasn't mine anymore. And in some ways, I now feel very distant from it. You know, Like, I just look at the book and I'm like, oh, interesting. Like, it's nice that it's a physical thing that I can look at that I made that I can have sort of a material relationship to, you know, because I can really let go of it in that way. But also, there's then the part where there's almost like Some sort of, like, synecdoche or something that happens in people's minds where they conflate me with the thing. And I'm sure that that in large part happened because then there was a television show around the world that they could see me and get to know me or feel like they got to know me. And so then I become this, like, you know, symbol for salt, fat, acid heat, which is, like, I'm very aware that my name. People know salt, fat, acid heat way more than they know my name. And I like that. I let. I don't want them. I don't need everyone to know my name. So I. I am like a piece of this bigger thing. But there's a lot that gets projected onto me by people and that. It has been hard for me and is complicated. And, yeah, I've really struggled with partly because, like, I want to offer people what it is that they want from me. You know, I want to give them joy. I want to give them a moment of connection when they, like, stop me on the street or see me or are having a great, like, excitement when they, like, run into me in a store or something. But I also am, like, a person having my own experience of my. In my body and in my life and in my head. And it's not always aligned with, like, being able to do that for people because I. It also costs a lot for me. And so that has been a big struggle. Is sort of the. Yeah. Becoming the symbol of the thing.
- [13:48]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And I think for anybody who puts work into the world that in some way touches other people, and maybe. Maybe some people are totally fine with it. Maybe some people just, like, bring it on. Like, I am the thing. And, like, the more direct the channel, the better. I'm more like you. Like, I've never been. Like. I'm like. I love to create things that go into the world, and the thing becomes the source of whatever it is. Like, I don't even care if anyone knows my name. I would almost rather they don't. So I can just kind of live in a cave. I'm just. It's never been about that. And you had this moment where you. It wasn't just the book. That was the thing. You as a human being were the thing. Your life, your lens. The way that you showed up was the thing. When we last talked, you know, this was.
- [14:31]
Samin Nosrat
Had the show come out or had the book come out? When I talked to you, I think.
- [14:33]
Jonathan Fields
The show had come out. So this was, like, late 2018, if I remember correctly. So the show is probably pretty recently on air, so that brought a level of just exposure to you as a person in a whole different way. And back then, you actually mentioned to me, heading out to a cabin in the desert away from everyone, just kind of get your bearings back and figure out what you wanted with this torrent of attention coming at you. I wrote down, actually, what I was just listening to. I wrote down. You said, I realize I'm not in a place to say yes or no to anything, so I'm just putting a hold on any decision making until I have quiet time to figure out what makes any sense to do. I know if I don't decide to do something because I care about it in my heart, I will be miserable.
- [15:19]
Samin Nosrat
I'm in the opposite place now where I'm like, I just want to say no to everything.
- [15:23]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And I've been curious about that. Did you. Did you take that space? And we'll talk about some of the stuff that's unfolded in the intervening years also. But I felt like when we talked last time, you were in this window where you're like, my head is spinning. There are astonishing things happening. You use the word coming at me.
- [15:42]
Samin Nosrat
Yes. It was all coming at me.
- [15:43]
Jonathan Fields
Right. And on the one hand, it's like, what an incredible blessing. How can I not just acknowledge that? And the other hand, you're like, how do I live through this? What was sort of like the immediate future after that, like, for you?
- [15:57]
Samin Nosrat
I did go to the cabin in the desert, and then I invited Press. There, like, there was a way where. I mean, not for. Not the whole time, but there was a, like, one. One thing I let come there, you know, And I'm like, why did I do that? There was just. I'm not so good with the boundaries. I'm getting better. But, like, I also. Yeah, it's interesting to hear that I said it that way, that I. I needed the quiet because I didn't want to miss something good. Whereas now I'm like, I need the quiet because I need to make space for whatever it is that I want to do. Right. Like.
- [16:32]
Jonathan Fields
Because that's a big difference.
- [16:34]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Yeah.
- [16:34]
Samin Nosrat
Like, I need. And I also just need re. I need rest. I came home, you know, I. I basically, since August, have been to nearly 30 cities. And I came home, like, a little over a week ago, and the. And I also was sick by the time, you know, I kind. You get worn down. And so I was just so exhausted and so sick. Just, like, physically, my ankle was sprained. Like, everything falling apart. And I was like, I don't want to do anything. There's all these things I like, there are a few things I, I sort of have to do next year. And I'm like, cancel that. I'm like, just end the substack, Quit everything. Like, don't, I don't want to do anything. And as I like, you know, my sinus infection has sort of like gone down. I'm a little better now. I'm like, okay, maybe I don't. I like that's not the best place to make decisions from. But I'm just, I, I have the opposite feeling now of if I say yes to things that are not like, truly, truly coming from deep inside of me, I will regret it. And in a way that was part of why making the second book was so complicated and hard for me was that on the one hand, like, I did want to make a second book and I had a good idea. And on the other hand I very much like felt the pressure of the strike while the iron is hot and sell this idea right now. And so I, I, I, I did do that. I actually, I worked on that book proposal at, in the desert and I thought I was taking time because it was almost two years since salt fat acid heat had come out. But it wasn't enough quiet time to get really, really clear inside of myself. It, it's very scary. I live in such a, we all live in such a, like production focused world and like, you know, the forces of capitalism just are so intense even if you try to be aware of them. And on some of us more than others, there's just that like pressure often from inside to produce and make. And I really have that. And so it's been hard for me to be like, I'm just going to have some fallow time which the world and my life sort of forced me into, regardless of whether or not I was going to do it. I mean, not only the pandemic, but then I sort of had an extended period of like grieving and then my, I had another sort of extended period of my dad dying and then like the sort of aftermath of that. So there was a lot of ways in which like the circumstances of my life forced me to stop working. I just couldn't. I like just physically and emotionally, like wasn't able to. So. But how nice would it be to make that a conscious choice and decide to take some downtime rather than to be forced into it?
- [19:15]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, and I think so many of us, we don't actually do that until we're brought to our knees by something outside of us or something that's a blend of inside and outside. And we're like, oh, now I guess I have to listen because I actually can't do anything but that. I often wonder why it takes that. We both sat down with so many people who are studied and deeply philosophical, theological, and they know all the things and think it's one thing to know, it's another thing to practice your life that way. It's a different thing, especially when you have, and as you described your whole upbringing, you sort of like you're brought up with a certain ethos and then you take that and you bundle it with, hey, something astonishing has just happened to you that happens to almost nobody. The window is probably only going to be open for a short amount of time. Take advantage of everything you can while it's open. And meanwhile there's a voice inside of you saying, but that might kill me. Yeah, yeah, you know, and like, you've gotta battle that. And it's a fraught place to be.
- [20:17]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah. And there's a whole other layer of I'm sort of internally going through this thing, while externally the world is sort of observing me be a capital S success. And I'm getting all of the sort of attention and praise and trappings of that that in many ways I'd always wanted, that wouldn't anyone want, and certainly that most of my friends who are writers and other types of artists and creative people would give anything to have. So it felt really complicated to have a tortured relationship to it. And it still does. Like, I don't want to come off, like, I'm complaining. I'm so grateful for it. And the other thing I didn't get to say when you asked about, like, how do I feel about having made this thing and the people's response to it. Like, some of the best moments, like, it's, I, I don't have the ability to sit back and look at, like, what I've done for the world and, like, think about it in a, in a, in a sort of zoom out 30,000. I can't do that. I, I, that would not be good for my mind or my ego or anything. But there are these little glimpses and these little moments that I get to have when people come up to me and I'm in a receptive place. And especially when it's like any sort of type of, like, marginalized person who often says something about, like, what not only the work has meant to them, but seeing me has meant to Them. And that often is like, the most sort of fulfilling part, like, thing, response, type of response that I can have and gives me the best feeling about, like, wow, this feels really good. Because I know I didn't get to see somebody like me for my whole life. And so that's something I'm really proud of, is that I get to be visible for people who don't feel seen.
- [22:11]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, and part of me wonders at the same time, like, I hear that I'm like, that must feel really incredible inside. I wonder if there's another voice that sometimes accompanies that that says, especially for, like, as you described, if you start to become seen as the model representative or marginalized person, is there a sense of responsibility that then you step into? Well, I've got to behave in a certain way. I've got to show up in a certain way. Because now people are looking to me to see, like, how to stand in this moment, what's possible. And what if I fall?
- [22:44]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah, I definitely feel that. I feel that just in tiny ways. Like, I basically put on a cloak when I leave my home. Like, some sort of protective cloak of, like, not only, like, my energy force field, but also just. I kind of know there's, like, a subconscious sort of, like, switch that clicks of like, I. I don't know. You can't throw a tantrum in public. You can't be grumpy at the coffee store. Like, you can't. I can't cut people off in traffic. Not that I'm always trying to or whatever, but, like, you sort of. I just am very aware that it means something, you know, like, my girlfriend and I will be driving, and she's always like, you drive like a grandma. And I was like. And she's like, make a U turn. Take that parking spot. And I was like, oh, no, no. I was like, I can't do that. Like, I can't make an illegal U turn in the middle of the street. Like, someone will see me. I was like, no, no, no. There's just a sense that I can't do that. I can't be that way. Which I've, like, is not an unfamiliar sense to me. It's just amplified.
- [23:43]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Cacava. So not long ago, I spent a few days walking part of the Nakasendo Trail in Japan. It's this ancient path winding through forests and mountain villages. And there was something about the simplicity of being out there that reminded me just how much we crave things that feel clear and trustworthy. And yet when it comes to nutrition, it's often the opposite. Cabinets crowded with powders and labels that take forever to decode and still wondering what actually supports your so when someone on our team finds something that genuinely works for them, I pay attention. And our executive producer Lindsey has actually been all in on the Matcha flavored Cachava. For about two years now she's been a steady paying customer and her favorite mix is milk and a frozen banana. It's kind of her go to because it tastes great and keeps things simple. Cachava is a clean all in one nutrition shake with no fillers or artificial flavors, colors or sweeteners. Two Scoops offer plant based protein, fiber, greens, adaptogens and nutrients that support energy, digestion, metabolism, strength, cognition and immunity. Rewild your nutrition@kachava.com and use the code goodlife. New customers get $20 off an order of two bags or more now through the 31st. That's Kachava K A C H-A-V A.com code good life or just click the link in the show notes. Use that code Good Life GoodLife project is sponsored by iM8's Daily Ultimate Essentials. So I had been taking IMA and feeling really steady actually and then I missed a few days and I felt my energy and focus drop. It was a clear reminder of how much it had been helping me stay grounded. IMH's daily Ultimate Essentials packs 92 quality nutrients into one simple drink, vitamins, minerals, adaptogens, pre pro and postbiotics plus clinical doses of CoQ10 and MSM. It replaces 16 supplements and was developed with experts from Mayo Clinic and Cedar cyanide including clinical trial showed 95% of people felt more energetic. If you want something easy that genuinely helps you feel better, im8 might be it. Give your body what it deserves with iM8. Go to im8health.com GLP and use a code GLP for a free welcome kit. Five travel sachets plus 10% off your order. Seriously, this is one of those offers you'll wish you'd jumped on sooner. That's im8health.com GLP and use the code GLP for a free welcome kit. Five free travel sachets plus 10% off your order im8health.com GLP code GLP these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Good Life Project is sponsored by BetterHelp. So a new year doesn't always call for a new you. Sometimes it's about gently releasing what's been draining you. I mean, for me, that often looks like taking things off my plate, saying no to a bit more and protecting the bandwidth that I need to feel grounded in therapy. It can help you see those patterns more clearly so you understand what holds you back and what actually supports you. BetterHelp makes getting that support simple. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and work under a strict code of conduct. They handle the initial matching for you through a short questionnaire and more than a decade of experience. And if the match isn't right, you just switch anytime from their tailored recommendations. With over 30,000 therapists and millions served, the impact is real. If you're ready to feel a little less weighed down, I encourage you to try BetterHelp. BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com goodlifeproject that's betterhelp.com goodlifepruject or just click the link in the show notes. So the pandemic hits as you shared your dad also drops into illness and eventually passes and kind of like through weaving through this same season, ish, you also start to realize that you're looking back at your life, especially your very early life, and realizing there's a lot of anger in the house and there is a lot of probably grief that you didn't realize for an older sister that had died very young when you didn't really have any memories as an adult. But you're starting to realize maybe actually there was something there for me that I'm just not processing. So there's like this soup of disruption, grief and loss that's just like perpetually being stirred with you. And then the pandemic kind of makes it hard to process and be with people during this whole thing. For you, it sounds like making like working with, with food and with, with raw materials has always been such a place of sanctuary and salvation, especially being able to actually do that with others that you love. And. But this was a time where it sounds like it was harder to do that.
- [28:41]
Samin Nosrat
I mean, due to the depression, I lost my appetite, I lost my own interest in cooking. And the cooking has largely been a way for me to connect with friends. It's often and through most of my life been like really social work. You know, like, like just you go to work and you cook with other cooks and you talk and you see what they're doing. And there's like, sort of inspiration, but also just like, fun and collegiality so that, you know, I didn't have. And I was just so lonely. I was so lonely in all of the ways. And, you know, I love that your show is called Good Life Project, because that was sort of became, in a way like that could have been the title for what I was doing was I was trying to orient myself. I kind of got this clarity. I was like, I spent my whole life trying to achieve because on some level, I believed that achieving and producing would lead to happiness. It would make my parents happy, it would make me happy. It would fill this, like, deep hole in my heart and like, I would no longer feel this, like, deep sense of loneliness and sadness that is. I've always thought of sort of as my oldest friend. And I'm therapized enough to know, like, that's not. It was not my. It was not a conscious thing that was driving me. But once I did get all the achievement and I was lonelier and sadder than ever, it sort of forced me to acknowledge that I had had that flawed thinking all along. And before the pandemic, probably around the time I was coming to New York, probably around the time I saw you, one of my friends, Greta, had moved back to New York from California, and she had just started having these weekly dinners. And she, like, fell in love and found a new partner who's really thoughtful person, one of, like, smartest, most thoughtful people I know. And he, in so many ways, also has, like, all of these trappings of success and also is just one of the most sort of like, spiritual, careful people I know. And so there was a way whenever I meet someone who just like, is. Has. Has somehow done things differently and is like, doing something so interesting. And I'm always so curious, like, how they became them. I'm sure this is like the entire premise of your whole show, right?
- [31:18]
Jonathan Fields
Basically, yeah. It's 14 years.
- [31:21]
Samin Nosrat
You're like, what happened in your life? Who do you know? Like, was it your parents? Is there something in you? Like, how did this happen? And so I, like, I. I just started having so many conversations with these two friends, and a big question I found themselves. Them asking themselves was like, what is a good life? Like, what's the life that we want to build? And some of that was sort of coming manifest through these weekly dinners, but also I think, just in other ways of the choices that they were making. And it's interesting, you know, to see people who, from the Outside appear like they have it all to still be, like, really grappling with this. And. And. And to me, that was like, a really just hopeful thing. And so I got into these sort of conversations, and that became this question that I just started asking myself. It's like, what is a good life? Because I had not had financial stability, I had not had support systems, I had not had, I don't know, recognition for my work. And then I. I kind of got recognition, and I got financial stability. And I. I always. When I didn't have it, I thought if I had that, I would feel okay. And then I had that and didn't solve the problem. And so I was like, okay, well, clearly there's some flaw in my thinking, so I need to figure out what I can orient myself toward. How do I answer this question? And so that really became this thing I just would sort of, like, ask myself in all these different ways and in some ways has become the barometer by which I can make other decisions of, like, do I want to do this thing? Will that take me closer or further away from a good life? You know, but, like, yeah, just trying to sit with, like, what is a good life? Really became the sort of driver of my life in that time.
- [33:11]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, it's one of those questions that I think a lot of us ask on in passing. You know, obviously, for. For me, it's become a bit of an obsession for a long time. And I'm always like. Like, you. I'm always kind of like, if I see somebody and there's just a twinkle, you're like, they figured something out. I don't care if you're famous. I don't care if nobody knows you at all. It's just, like, oftentimes it's the quietest, most unknown people that I bump into. And you're like, oh, there's something that they know that I want to know that they figured out. And it's amazing to sort of just be in the question. There isn't one universal answer from what I found, but there are a lot of universal themes that people get back to. For you, it seems like being with friends, being in community, has always been something just critically important for you, which I'm curious now also about, because when you're at that moment a couple years earlier where you're like, everything's spinning around. I need to be able to actually touch stone again and make really good decisions. It sounds like your choice was solitude rather than community. You're like, something. And you said, I need solitude now. Not people. In order to find the clarity that I need, which seems like it was different than it was in the past.
- [34:31]
Samin Nosrat
I also think, like, that was one step in a larger sort of acknowledgment to myself that I think I had confused being around people with being in community or being close to people. And so, yeah, big difference. Yeah. Like I had. And it's, it's. It's so complicated. Right? Like, there's not a clear. There's not one thing. But I, I've always been a very sort of social person. And I mean, I also have a huge part of me that needs to be alone. But yeah, I, I don't want to just be a hermit all the time, you know, And I historically have been like, incredibly extroverted. And I think wanting to be part of something I've wanted, I've always felt outside and trying to find my way inside and be part of things, something. And whether that word could be a family or a community or a group or whatever, like, I just always am. Like, I've been like, how do I get inside the thing I feel outside of? Like, I want to be around in, in with, in with. And I have like, tried and failed many, many, many times for many reasons. Like, but. But I think when I started cooking, there was a way where I. That desperate part of me that just wanted to like, be invited to the party or be part of the group or the celebration recognized, now I have a tool. I. Because like, I don't have to wait to be invited to the party because now I'm the cook and I can throw the party. And if I throw the party, by definition I'm invited. And so there was a way where like, I confused for very long time the like, being at the party with being like, genuinely like, rooted in relationship with people. Do you know what I mean?
- [36:37]
Jonathan Fields
Like, yeah.
- [36:38]
Samin Nosrat
And it was not like ill spirited or out of manipulation. It was like a desperate like, baby part of me trying to belong, you know, like, it was just a way. It was like a survival tool. But I didn't understand that, like, just because I got to go to the thing that everyone else was going to or whatever, that was not like solving that sense of loneliness that. That wasn't solving this thing that was plaguing me. And so in some ways then when the show came out and I got all the invitations and all the attention, it was so much that I sort of short circuited and I did have a sense that I needed to go be very quiet and very alone just to Try to reorient myself and re. Ground myself. I just needed some quiet time to, like, quiet my nervous system because it was. There was just too much coming at me.
- [37:34]
Jonathan Fields
No, that all makes sense. I mean, what you're describing, it's. I think so many of us have felt that, you know, it's like the. The difference between being invited and being beloved, being celebrated, being, like, actually connected. Yeah. Like, people genuinely wanting you there. Not just because there's a purpose, but actually they just like your presence. They want to be around you, and you want to be around them. It's a very different thing. I think a lot of us, like, oh, I wish I was invited to this. Why am I not getting all the invites? And it's like, it's not about being in the room, you know, it's about.
- [38:12]
Samin Nosrat
It actually feels so lonely.
- [38:14]
Jonathan Fields
So lonely. It's about feeling deeply connected to even three people. And there's such a huge difference. This is a theme that also. It weaves in so many different ways through the new book, through good things, you know, this sense of being connected to people through food, through hospitality, through hosting, through sharing time together, and even the weekly dinners that you've referenced, you know, and I feel like a lot of people don't know how to do that, how to step into the role of gathering people. They're all like, you were describing the kind of waiting for the invitations. And then in no small way, I feel like this new work is kind of an. It's a permission slip to people to say, you don't have to wait. Like, here's a little bit of a field guide for you to be able to actually feel comfortable gathering people on your own. Like, you get to choose, invite your deep friends, your chosen family to just come play, come talk, come eat food together, come make food together. And if you don't know how, which I think a lot of people don't, so they resist doing that. You're kind of like, I've got something for you. Was that part of the intention?
- [39:25]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah. I mean, this book came together in such a funny way. Like I said, I had a totally different idea and went through a few different sort of versions before it became this. And it only became this, like, in the making, because I was in real time sort of finding myself again and coming back to myself. And a big part of that was just having these really casual dinners with my friends who at the time were not like my closest friends, but by any means. But I think the, like, continued proximity has sort of like, enabled an intimacy and of course we had a relationship. It wasn't. They were not strangers, but it just wasn't necessarily who I would have thought that I would make something like this with. And that's also been kind of beautiful. That, like, that perfectionist part of me drove me for so long to be, like, try and plan and orchestrate the best possible version of a weekly dinner and who would be in it and all of that kind of stuff. And then I would sort of collapse under the pressure of it or just knowing, like, I could never make that a reality for a variety of reasons. And then this one sort of appeared and we just stuck with it. And it has really shifted something in all of our lives. And at first I thought it was just me, but, you know, I think we can agree. We all sort of joke. We agree it's our version of church, you know, like, it's our holy place. And that feels special. And I wanted to offer that in the way that, like, I read a lot and thought a lot about gifts when I was. Or just the idea of the gift. You know, I read the Gift also while I was writing this book. And part of that was because I.
- [41:14]
Jonathan Fields
By the way, if nobody's read that Lewis Hyde's book, the Gift, you've got to read it.
- [41:17]
Samin Nosrat
It's so beautiful. Yeah.
- [41:18]
Jonathan Fields
So beautiful.
- [41:19]
Samin Nosrat
And the other book that was, like, really thoughtful about the idea of the gift was the breeding sweetgrass and sort of native. Native concepts.
- [41:27]
Jonathan Fields
Amazing. Yeah.
- [41:28]
Samin Nosrat
Of the gift. And so I thought about that a lot because I sort of notoriously have a complicated relationship with recipes. And I was trying so hard to figure out how to justify, like, my relationship to them. But then the fact that I made a book of recipes after telling you, like, here's a way to cook without recipes for the rest of your life.
- [41:53]
Jonathan Fields
Just for context, for this following along, sulfat acid heat was basically, the fundamental message was, you don't need a recipe. Understand these four different qualities of flavor. And once you understand that, you can make anything.
- [42:05]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah. And so then I felt like a real hypocrite when I was like, I guess I will write a recipe book. And so I just turned the word recipe over and over and over in my head and was trying to figure out, like, how do I sort of come to peace with this myself, let alone, like, justify this for other people? And at some point, I. I looked up the etymology of the word and, you know, a recipe before it related to food was a word that doctors. Basically, it was like the. A prescription. And so. And it's the infinitive or the imperative form of the word. Like, to give or like, yeah. And so, like, it's like, so what it. Recipe at the top. A pharmacist would write or a doctor would write. It would mean like, here, take this, right? And so I sort of kept thinking about that. I was like, oh, like, that's kind of the sentiment that I wrote. Salt, fat, acid heat. It was like, here, take this. And in a weird way, I was like, oh, that's how I can think of a recipe is like, here, take this. It's like, I'm giving this to you. And when I give you something, it's no longer mine anymore. It's yours to do with as you wish. And so there was an idea. Like, that idea of I was trying to make something that I knew would not be mine once I made it, and that would be a gift. And that felt like a really important thing to give to people was just a glimpse at this part of my life that has been really profoundly important and moving and maybe could be for you too. And I do know that it can feel really overwhelming and intimidating to try to set up something like this and commit to something like this. I have tried to and failed many times over the last 20 years. And so there were ways that we did it that I wouldn't have necessarily done if I were planning it or setting out with my own, like, you know, spreadsheet that have actually ended up being really helpful. And so those were things that. That I wanted to offer to people. But what's interesting, too, is, like, you spend all this time making a book and you're really in your own head, right? Like, you. Only a very few people sort of see it, and you talk to them about it, and then it comes out in the world and you get to have a whole new relationship to it. Because now people are bringing you questions and feedback and interpreting and receiving in ways you didn't know were possible. And so there are just things, like, I've gotten so many questions about how to do that. I've gotten so many people's stories about their weekly things that they have been doing or have started doing. And that's. That's really wonderful. But I also just. You re. I realize, like, it could be so simple. You know, there was this great photographer in New Orleans who was like a huge sort of community hub person. He was the kind of person like, everybody knew, you know, his name was Pablo Johnson, I think, and he passed away a few years ago. But he. I met him once and that was enough to garner an invitation to his Sunday. Like red beans and rice. There was just like, everyone in New Orleans knew, like, you go to Pablo's house for red beans and rice on Sundays. And so I'm like, that's not fancy. It's just that it's consistent and that there's enough for everyone. Right? Like, that's all it needs to be is, like, the consistency and the invitation.
- [45:30]
Jonathan Fields
And I love that part of it, you know, because I think we do get in our head so much. We're like, oh, if I'm going to have friends over, I'm going to have people over for dinner or brunch, whatever, me. We've got to have the perfect spread. We've got, like, perfectionism sneaks into every part of our lives.
- [45:45]
Samin Nosrat
And I mean, we're just constantly amplifies that. Like, we just, like the world amplifies that. And I know I'm like, I can't help but be part of that, too, even though I'm trying so hard to not be. Like, you make a cookbook, you put pictures of the food. People want their food to look like the picture. But also it's like, how else am I going to communicate stuff I don't know?
- [46:09]
Jonathan Fields
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- [48:11]
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- [48:45]
Jonathan Fields
But what I think also you do a beautiful job of in like throughout good things is this notion of saying, I'm also going to try and keep this as simple and accessible as possible. Like you probably have a whole bunch of stuff in your pantry already. You know, like you don't have to go to the bougiest shop in town and get the most exotic ingredients. You can if you want to. If it's just fun for you, awesome. Have at it. You know. But we all have a lot of stuff and it's really sort of like the idea of, you know, there's like the food is. It's like it's the canvas, you know, but. And you want a nice canvas and you want to paint a little something nice on it. But you know, it's like you want to bring everyone together to make the picture, to make the image, to make like. And that's the people, it's the conversation, it's the love that unfolds around it. And you're like, no art is perfect. The most moving pieces of art you've ever seen are not the ones with the straightest lines and the most realistic things. It's the one that makes you feel. And I feel like that's a lot of the focus. What I'm seeing is. You don't have to go overboard here. Don't worry about being perfect. Just do something that feels yummy, brings people together and, like. And let that be where the magic really unfolds around this.
- [50:01]
Samin Nosrat
There's something you're saying that it's like, clicking something for me, which is the thing that, like, that art makes you feel and that. Because I often think about at a meal, like, the meals that have been the most sort of memorable to me are. I don't. I generally don't remember what I ate. It's like, what happened and, you know, how I felt at the table. And I often. I have. I have a really interesting sort of memory. Like, I can remember certain things super clearly and specifically, especially from, like, books that I've read or movies or anything that I have felt, like, really moved by. But often I completely forget entire plots and characters, and I just remember that something. I loved something so much because it made me feel something.
- [50:50]
Jonathan Fields
Yes. It's like something magical happens.
- [50:52]
Samin Nosrat
And so there's a way where, like, I often. Yeah, it's like I. You know, like, I could be like, oh, my God, this book, it was so good. I have no idea what happened. I just remember, like, I loved Northwoods, you know, Like. Like, I. I hold onto that feeling. And I feel like that's essentially what I'm trying to say about the table, too, is, like, just make space for that feeling. Because that feeling is way more important than whether or not you have, like, the perfect mozzarella, you know, or whatever. Yeah.
- [51:23]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense to me, and I think it resonates with so many people and just makes it so much more easy for someone to say, I can do this. And you do. Like, you do get very specific guidance and directions. You talk about condiments and dressings and all different things, but one of the other things, for somebody who's looking for actually specific guidance, it's in there, but there's also. There's. There's a really juicy philosophical subtext to the whole thing which kind of says, just exhale, man. And I'm telling you, if it's not having. Right. It's like, if you're not having fun along the way, something's wrong.
- [51:59]
Samin Nosrat
And I'm like. As much I'm saying that to myself as I am to you, like, it's. It's A reminder to my own self. Like, I know everything doesn't have to be the most. And so much of it was just a coming back to, like, basically, I had to have, like, a little mantra of, like, whatever you are is enough. Like, whatever is showing up is enough. Which is not historically has been true for me, but, like, I had to, in some ways believe that for myself to be able to make the book. And that's also what I'm trying to model for you and communicate to you that that's enough too. And there's, you know, I don't know, like, you could have a totally good dinner of just grilled cheese sandwiches.
- [52:44]
Jonathan Fields
Like, I was literally, as you're thinking about that, like, I'm sure you've seen the movie Chef, you know, like, with. And there's that scene where he's just making a grilled cheese sandwich.
- [52:53]
Samin Nosrat
Yeah.
- [52:54]
Jonathan Fields
You know, and I'm like, my mouth is. And I'm like, this is stunningly gorgeous. It is the simplest thing. And you get that anything can have, like, beauty and just. And love just oozing from it. It doesn't. The complexity. It's not about how fancy or complex it is. You know, the most basic stuff. I think it's. Years ago, I was talking to somebody about making instruments, a luthier. And they were like, yeah, you can feel the maker's heart. Like, I was like, what makes a great instrument? And they're like, you can feel the maker's heart through the instrument. And I feel like the same thing with food. Like, you can. You can feel that. And that's so much more important than how complex or. Yes, a beautifully plated dish is awesome. It's like a work of art to look at. And so is a grilled cheese that was made with love.
- [53:44]
Samin Nosrat
Totally.
- [53:47]
Jonathan Fields
One other thing I want to touch base on you also. You explore the notion of time in the book. And we live in this culture where everything has to happen so quickly, and it's instant, instant, instant. And it's like, there's a certain grace that happens when you actually just let time unfold and even bread has to rise. There's certain ingredients that you work with. There's no way to rush certain things, and it forces us to stop and slow down. Even when I'm generally the cook in our house and when we have friends over for dinner, I kind of like it when we're not ready to serve them when they get there. I kind of like it when we're all got to hang out in the kitchen for an hour. Or something for. And it's just going to take some time. And that's part of the experience. Talk to me a little bit more just about this notion of cooking as a metaphor for building time into our lives.
- [54:39]
Samin Nosrat
Well, like I said, when I was so depressed, I was really sort of reexamining so much about what I'm doing, what my own relationship to cooking and eating is like. I was like, do I even really need to write another book? Like, I already told you everything I know in the one book, you know, it. There was just a sort of. Like, I had. I. There wasn't a sense of meaning or I. I couldn't identify the why for myself. The, yeah, why am I doing this? And what is the meaning here? And sort of separately, I. As I was turning over this question of what is a good life? And beginning to have these weekly dinners, my friend gave me this book, the Sabbath, which is like a small little book by a rabbi philosopher named Abraham Joshua Heschel. And it really sort of. I mean, my friend gave it to me to sort of help me think about the role of these weekly dinners in my life and the meaning of them. And in that book, Abraham Joshua Heschel writes about Judaism being a religion not of, like, space and material things, but of time. And that the Sabbath is sort of one of these, like, foundational practices inside of the religion because you're carving out. He calls it a palace in time, I think, or cathedral in time. And that I just kept thinking about that, like, the meaning of time in our lives. And like. And then Simon. And then sort of shortly after I'm sitting there with. Thinking about all this, then my dad dies in this really sort of prolonged and really melodramatic and complicated and chaotic way that causes so much suffering and pain, not only for everyone around him, but also for himself, which was just. My dad was a complicated and quite dangerous person, honestly. But I don't feel like anyone deserves, like, undue suffering. And I did spend those last several months at his bedside, partly because he was incapacitated and hence, like, couldn't hurt me in the way that he had. But also it was an opportunity to try to, like, talk through some things and get some closure. And witnessing this person die in this really, like, chaotic, painful, suffering filled, like, ultimately very lonely way was really instructive for me because I just kept thinking, like, how sad, how sad. Like, this is what he sowed. You know, like, he sowed the seeds for this and it's coming back for him now. And, like, this is the saddest thing I can think of, like the most pathetic. And I say that, like, pass it like pathetic way to end a life. And it really made me think about, like, what do I want to think about and reflect back on and look back on when I'm in that position, when I'm dying, like, I want to be able to look back and be like, I made a life like full of creativity and friendship and love and nature and puppies and friends, you know, and good food and like, that's what I want. But if I want that, like, I have to start doing that now. I have to make sure, like every choice I make now is going into that. Because I just, I think, yeah, it's very cliche to like watch someone die and then like realize your own mortality. But, but that's really what happened. And like, I just was like, oh, I've had this sense my whole life that if I work hard enough and am capital G good enough and do good enough or do enough good, that that will like earn me some points in some invisible, I don't know, metric by some invisible force. And at some point then I will be rewarded with like security and happiness because I did enough. I did it enough. But then I now I was like all of a sudden being like, wait a minute, there's no guarantee. Like, where's, like what's this invisible force? Like what's the number I'm trying to reach? You know, like, why I'm basically like depositing into some bank account that's like a bottomless pit and I will never be able, like I just was like, oh, I have to start withdrawing now. I have to start like having, taking advantage of like every day and what I have. And, and I really in some ways have majorly shifted certain things. And now I like do say yes and I do go on the trip and I do take the opportunity in a way that like historically I've just self flagellated and put my head down and worked. And so that was such a sort of huge shift for me in like the, on a cellular level. And it became the driving thing of my life was this idea of like, time is my most valuable and precious currency. And so if it's my most precious thing, then sharing it with someone is actually like the most beautiful thing I can do. And for me, in my life and for many people, I think like a very simple way on a daily basis that I can share that time or express my love through an investment of time is by cooking for you or by eating with you. And so that sort of became the way I understood the value of cooking for me, and I have come to understand it in my own life is, like, it's not about me, like, innovating and creating and being like, whatever. It's about, like, this, you know, when I. And maybe it's so sappy, but, like, I try to cook for people, like, whatever it is that they would like most on their birthdays. And so that's often an opportunity for me to really spend, like, a day or longer, like, thinking about you while I'm making this thing for you. And I'm, like, truly thinking about you and pouring, like, this good energy and this love into this food. And can you taste it? I don't know. Yes, probably. But it's more that, like, it's. I'm actually just giving you a piece of myself.
- [61:19]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, but you're also saying in doing that, you're saying to that friend, I know you. Like, I've been paying attention. I see you. And that is like, that is so. It's like, whatever you cook for them, sure, it's yummy. It's going to have your love in it and, you know, again, and it'll be a, you know, a savory experience in the moment. You know, it's something. But, like, underneath all that is this, like, you know, the subtext is, I see you, I know you, I acknowledge you. That is so rare in today's world. Like, I feel like we are just so desperate to be seen.
- [61:55]
Samin Nosrat
And that's the thing.
- [61:56]
Jonathan Fields
We all want the facade. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It feels a good place for us to come full circle as well. You've kind of answered my last question, but I'm going to ask it more fully again. So in this Container of Good Life project, if I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up?
- [62:17]
Samin Nosrat
Like, taking care of the people around me, allowing them to take care of me, taking care of the environment. You know, like, doing my best to, like, feel totally present on any given day in any given moment and, like, appreciate what's there. Like, taking in art, making art. Hugging my puppy. Yeah, yeah. Being. Trying to just, like, feel the fullness of my humanity.
- [62:52]
Jonathan Fields
Thank you.
- [62:53]
Samin Nosrat
Thank you.
- [62:56]
Jonathan Fields
Hey, before you leave, if you love this conversation, you'll also love the conversation we had with Samin about her journey from anxiety and depression to finding joy through food, writing and community at Chez Panisse. Her earlier visit also offers a wonderful complement to today's conversation. You can find a link to that episode in the show Notes this episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields editing, helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
- [64:12]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.
- [64:43]
If.
- [64:43]
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- [65:12]
Jonathan Fields
Par le tu francais?
- [65:14]
Samin Nosrat
Hablas espanol?
- [65:15]
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