BenDeLaCreme (2:26)

It'S all going to become anxiety.

Jesse David Fox (2:28)

Yeah, yeah, because we're going to talk about her a bunch. For those who aren't familiar, can you briefly explain who BenDeLaCreme is? The drag Persona?

BenDeLaCreme (2:38)

Yeah, yeah. She is this character that I sort of developed, got at this point, like 20 years ago. And she is sort of this bubbly, kind of ding dong of a Muppet. She's sort of, I think, of her existing in sort of like the Pee Wee's Playhouse reality. But yeah, she's this big, colorful drag queen with sort of the mind of a child who's like bizarrely smart at other points. Yeah, she. She exists in another plane, but I love to use her to tell stories because she and I essentially have opposite worldviews a lot of the time.

Jesse David Fox (3:22)

So imagine easy to write because you're just like, okay, what's my worldview? And then I'll just say the opposite.

BenDeLaCreme (3:26)

Exactly. And she's so, you know, she's got this really upbeat character voice and she said, you know, you can sort of say anything in this voice. And, you know, it's. So oftentimes I'm actually just saying what I think. But if she says it bubbly, like she doesn't know what she's saying, then, you know, it works.

Jesse David Fox (3:41)

So to set the stage for our conversation, this is a fairly large question, but get ready. So when you started doing drag, drag was still an art form in opposition to the mainstream. In many ways, it was defiant by its nature. And then as you've continued to do drag, drag has entered the mainstream. And in many ways, that has put a target on its back to people who may be less comfortable with that being the case. And you're holding that entire existence together. You've been a drag queen through all of it. Take your time with this question. How has your idea of what a drag queen is for, what drag is for, evolved?

BenDeLaCreme (4:22)

I would actually say the context and the world around it has changed a lot. But my stance and view on that is. Is pretty steadfast, you know, I mean, I. Because I've been at this so long, you know, and I still, you know, I. I grew up in the 90s and was like doing drag as a sort of. But like in private, you know, but had my own relationship to what that was. But still there was like, you know, it was different than it even was like a decade earlier. You know, I didn't have access to much of that, but when I first saw the wig stock documentary, when that came out, I really was so drawn to all these New York queens, this kind of like, you know, Lady Bunny and Coco Peru and Candice Kane and, and of course B and, and the, you know, late great Alexis rk. But these folks, I really saw myself in them. And, and that is when I sort of really knew the direction I was headed in. Not because I was like, oh, that's what I want to be, but because I was like, oh, these people are so much like me and there's a way to be like this in the world and there's a place for what I'm already like. And so that was kind of my first taste of what drag can be. That was you, was it serving its purpose? To me, that there, you know, I mean, that kind of colorful sort of flamboyance, whether it comes in the form of drag or, or whatever, is a beacon, you know, and, and so that's really what at some point I would say, like in my very early twenties, I realized that my sort of duty was and my ability was because, you know, it's self serving as well. You know, I was working in Chicago when I started sort of working in drag and I, you know, again, this was sort of beginning of Grindr era and gay culture was, you know, the mask for mask, very homogenous, super ripped body thing was in full effect. And I, when I started, I would, did like this sort of angry riot girl drag that was sort of this expression of the fact that I finally found this space and still didn't feel like I belonged there. And that was like, people liked it and it served its purpose. But at some point I realized like, this isn't changing how people are interacting with me. And when I found this approach to drag that was more joyful and more about making people smile, I was like, oh, now people are interacting with me the way I want them to. And that, you know, really became the beginning of this very like, base understanding of kind of when you give people a space to feel like they can fully be themselves, then it's reciprocated. And you know, now in the current political climate, I just am like, great, this is where I come from. I'm so honored that I get to be a part of this tradition. And, and it does feel like a duty to carry that legacy forward, but like one I'm really happy to be a part of. Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (8:00)

One thing you said in interview I thought was really smart was no one people are able to have in their head that Eddie Murphy can make both Raw and Daddy Daycare.

BenDeLaCreme (8:09)

Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (8:10)

And I thought that was it. Was just really, I think, really gets at something that I think people have not think of drag queens that way because they have such a limited understanding of drag queen. Can you, can you talk about the thinking with that?

BenDeLaCreme (8:23)

Yeah, I mean, I think just in the so many current conversations about. Right. The drag queen story, I mean, they're not even current. Right. It's like, oh, my God, how long have we been at this conversation? But this, you know, starts with this basic drag queen story hour versus what are they doing in the, in the nightclubs. And it's just. Yeah, I don't, I don't understand why that's confusing to people when it comes to drag specifically, that we can contain multitudes. I do think it's just what you said, there's such a limited understanding of drag. I mean, there's a limited understanding in drag in terms of, of what we can do, of what counts as drag, of, you know, and what doesn't, and, and, you know, sort of what fields a drag queen can work as and still qualify you. Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, it's not much more complex than that in my mind. It's just like we can do all these things and I don't understand why, like a straight man is afforded that or, you know, street culture in general. We just get it. It's not complicated that people know how to play to different audiences and we know when it's appropriate to bring our child or not bring our child. And, you know, this thing of like, I also think this concept of, you know, drag queens, like, coming to attack the children, it's like we put our ratings on things. We don't arrest parents who bring their children to an R rated movie. We just say, like, well, you maybe didn't make the best choice as a parent, but like, you don't blame Eddie Murphy.

Jesse David Fox (9:54)

Yeah, yeah.

BenDeLaCreme (9:55)

So why am I responsible if you brought your kid to something they shouldn't see, you know?

Jesse David Fox (9:59)

Which leads us to the drag race portion of this interview. Are you excited?

BenDeLaCreme (10:03)

Yes. You know, it's so seldom we talk about.

Jesse David Fox (10:06)

Well, I will frame it as this way. I think you are one of the great visionaries in television history.

BenDeLaCreme (10:13)

I'll take it. See, I don't know where we're going with it.

Jesse David Fox (10:16)

So the thing about you is you are a person who I think can see the Matrix in art. And I think this has extended beyond drag race where it's like, when you work with artists, you're able to sort of see the work that should exist when they're trying to express themselves. And on Drag Race, you were able to see how Drag Race worked before even the producers of Drag Race figured it out. And in many ways, you changed Drag Race. And because of that, I think it's just fascinating that you're able to figure out that this show is trying to manipulate its contestants to get some experience. And you realize, not unlike Neo in the Matrix, oh, I have so much control over this if I know how to pull the levers of it. And this is why I feel like it does speak uniquely to your skillset. But ultimately, we're going to be talking about Drag Race.

BenDeLaCreme (11:08)

Thank you. If you were trying to warm me up. I am.

Jesse David Fox (11:14)

I am. Because I know you have to talk about Drag Race so much. So, because of the comedy podcast, we were going to focus on Snatch Game, which I do think you should be. Your performances should be studied in many ways, because I think anyone could have friends, help them write jokes over a character. But I think what you've revealed is it really is not about the character choice. It really is the person's ability to use the character choice. But you did make character choices. This is all to say, before you were doing it, when you watched the seasons of Drag Race, before you were on, what had you noticed about Snatch Game, if you can remember?

BenDeLaCreme (11:49)

Oh, my God, there have been so many Snatch Games at some point, at this point, and so many of the recent ones have been so traumatizing to watch that I'm like, it's sort of a. Erased my memory of the early ones. I mean, of course, you know, Jinx and I are super close, and she was the season prior to me, which is part of what fueled me to be like, all right, well, I'm going on, too. But, you know, her little Ed was so well done that it kind of erases my knowledge of what came prior. And she and I had talked a lot about what our characters would be going in, but, yeah, I think that I was so nervous about the fact that, you know, I mean, Snatch Game comes out of the idea that, you know, impersonation is a big part of drag culture, and it's just never something that I'd done. It wasn't part of my life. So the pressure felt so high that I just. I buckled down out of fear, you know, and. And spent a lot of time figuring out, well, who, you know, who just kind of aligns with, Excuse me, what character would be a good way to express what's already going on with me. And the big thing that made me choose Maggie Smith. The first time around was, you know, we were at the height of Downton Abbey and she was just this sort of, you know, played this doddering old character who didn't understand Electric Light. And I was so nervous going in about the pop culture references because I was like, I don't really listen to that music. I don't pay attention. Attention to any of that stuff. What am I going to do? How am I going to spin those? And I was, as soon as I figured that out, I was like, oh, that's the whole character, you know, so.

Jesse David Fox (13:35)

So then how did you continue developing it? Like, how did you prepare for what the experience was going to be like?

BenDeLaCreme (13:41)

Yeah, I mean, I think I just have, for better or worse, more of an understanding of the mechanics of. Of old timey culture than current culture. So a lot of the sort of references of talking about whatever, using a quill and ink pot or whatever was just sort of already in there. But it was, it was really about the sort of finding. Like the big challenge to me was just finding the mannerisms with which to already deliver what it was that I would have to say. And that was challenging, but really just like staring at her, figuring out the way that she retracts her neck and bugs her eyes, and then really finding that voice. And I had to mutter underneath my breath the whole time to find it. My sentence was from Hook. It was, peter, you've become a pirate. And that was just what I kept giving myself over and over.

Jesse David Fox (14:32)

Like, while it's happening, you're like leaning.

BenDeLaCreme (14:34)

Away from the mic, Peter.

Jesse David Fox (14:38)

Yeah, because you have to keep on doing the voice.

BenDeLaCreme (14:40)

It has to stay consistent.

Jesse David Fox (14:42)

That is. And this goes back to you in the Matrix, which is like. I think a lot of people, when they're, at least from watching it, they have to be listening to everything everyone says because they're like, okay, maybe this will be the time I say something funny. But you're like, okay, getting the voice back on it then, you know, it's like picking your spots and seeing sort of what it is. I believe I heard you said that you would watch TV and like respond in the characters.

BenDeLaCreme (15:05)

Oh, yes, that is true. I. Well, that was so the, the second time around when I did Poland. You know, I think in some ways choose. Choosing to do a comedian is a weaker choice in general. Right. Because you're just trying to do what someone else already did best. But when there's a spec take on it, like Paul Lynde, where it's. It's about the, the. When the, the Time period, the references are from. And just. I mean, he's just. It's so easy to take what he was doing. He was so limited by what he could say on television and in the public eye that it's fun to think like, okay, well, this is what he might do with the current parameters. Right, so. So I watched a lot of. Of Poland and, you know, the original. What. What is Hollywood Squares? I watched a lot of that and studied just all those little, you know, head shakes and, and. And then, you know, we spend so much time on set and then you're locked in this hotel room and there's nothing to do. So, yeah, I would just watch television and I would just try to think of the quips that he might respond to. What? Yeah, that was just kind of how I sharpened it, because you don't know what's going to happen. I have heard tell that nowadays they get the Snatch Game questions in advance, which is mind blowing to me, that it's not better, but it's also clearly why they're doing it. But, But I just want to clear the record right now that they did not do that on my seasons because I've heard people be like, oh, well, no wonder it was so good, you know, like. Because, you know.

Jesse David Fox (16:52)

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I understand why they would do that. Just like they do with like, like late night panel shows where it's like, oh, they should have. But yeah, I mean, I'll let you say that it should be better.

BenDeLaCreme (17:04)

I just, I think it's no longer. It doesn't feel like a real test of anything in particular. It feels sort of like a formality that we all, like, grin and bear and, and it doesn't seem like, I mean, you know, and I'm really not trying to speak ill of anyone. I think it's. It makes sense that no one is trying very hard because the stakes have just been lowered. It used to feel like the thing you had to get right. And as soon as the show established that it wasn't, it's like, you know, it's like, why would. It's like, why would Gen Z be good at the service industry? Are they gonna buy a house someday?

Jesse David Fox (17:41)

You know, it is funny. It's a metaphor for everything. I mean, it's also us thinking it's like the queens are younger. And I think just generally it's hard to figure out a comedic voice and the levels of a comedic voice where it's like, like, okay, I've just forgot who my drag Persona is now. I need this Drag Persona to do another character.

BenDeLaCreme (17:57)

Right.

Jesse David Fox (17:57)

And also, I think what culture is. Is harder to even know, like, what anyone's. To say nothing of the people are great at, which is like, another tier of things. But I think, like, for it to be a lot of people are medium at it, you need a lot of shared touchstones. And I think, like, those don't exist, right?

BenDeLaCreme (18:15)

There's, like, no single culture, you know, and that. I deal with that every year when I'm writing the holiday show because, you know, song parody is such a big part of what I do, which is really born out of the tradition of the drag that I grew up loving. Right. That was just a big piece of it. So I've been writing song parodies for a long time. And the older I got, the more I was like, okay, I actually really have to, like, study the charts to. To actually know. You know what I mean? As. As pop music stopped resonating with me, I would say, like, you know, 2021, sort of like, at that it's. It got better last year, but, like, sort of Lizzo was like the dying gasp of me having anything to hook into. And then the year I had to do padumpadam, I almost. I didn't even know what to do with myself. But.

Jesse David Fox (19:06)

Yeah, Weird Al has remarked upon a similar problem where it's like, he was able to pull it out, put out an album every two years because, like, okay, cool, there's 15 pop songs every two years now. It's like every 12 years, you can do a medley.

BenDeLaCreme (19:17)

Exactly.

Jesse David Fox (19:17)

Because. Because it's like, there's. It's like every decade, there's only like, 10 pop artists.

BenDeLaCreme (19:22)

Well, and it used to be like, what's playing in Walgreens when you're shopping, right? It's like, that's what, you know, everyone has a point of reference for. And now, you know, as you were saying, it's. No one is listening to the same music. Yeah, yeah, there is. You know, you have to just sort of throw. Throw the dart and hope that 51% of the people in the audience know what you're doing.

Jesse David Fox (19:45)

I also imagine it's like. Like when it was pop music and it was just popular and everyone was commenting upon it, to then put in the space of drag was again, to do something sort of subversive with it or transgressive in so much as, like, pop music meant the mainstream. Where I feel like in the last couple years, whatever was, pop music was geared directly to already queer culture as is, though then to so Then to do it in drag, it's a. It is more like just doing like a club number, being like these are all of our pop songs opposed to like I'm doing a comedic piece, subverting it, right?

BenDeLaCreme (20:19)

Yeah. I mean you just, you have to find the way to subvert it. And what I have found that, you know, I, I write for both Jinx and, and Daela's characters oftentimes. I mean we, we both work on the scripts but. But a lot of time I'm writing for both those characters and it's basically just, you know, opposition in terms of how it. I approach everything. You know, whatever is filthy. Jinx is going to go filthier. But the thing that happens with usually the one who does the contemporary pop songs is it's taking. It kind of flipped. We used to be taking something that was mainstream and kind of making it dirtier. I'm talking general drag culture. And now it's kind of taking this dirty stuff. And Dale is so innocent and wide eyed. I just make it as stupid as possible, you know. And it's like, you know, speaking of Weird Al, it's like that episode of 30 Rock where they have to reverse it.

Jesse David Fox (21:08)

Yeah. So a question I had about Paul Lind is obviously RuPaul knows who that is and the amount of the audience who knows that is questionable. Do you think about that? Do you gear to RuPaul? Are you not actually thinking about any of you? Thinking about who just I can do and it's really just about like myself, you know, like what is sort of the calculus of it or not calculus? Like how do you. What felt like this is the best articulation of how you wanted to do it?

BenDeLaCreme (21:38)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's all of it. I mean the big thing is if Ru doesn't get it, it's. I mean, then the editors don't get it. Right. I mean, bottom line is you can be. They can say as much as you want that it's not the edit, but the bottom line is you are both funny and not funny over the course of a way too long challenge. And, and you can pick any pieces you want. Right. So if it's the pieces that you're get to get the right reactions from RuPaul, who's really the only one in the room who matters Y. Then you know, that's, that's what they're going to work with. So. So that was absolutely a consideration. But then, yeah, it really. It's also just who am I going to naturally be able to align with their comedic sense. Right.

Jesse David Fox (22:27)

Cuz I. I forgot that the opening joke is a Flip Wilson reference. Yes.

BenDeLaCreme (22:32)

Which I knew no one would get, but.

Jesse David Fox (22:34)

Because it's like, maybe people know Paul Lind as. Because he was this sort of gay entertainer, but like, I can't imagine anyone would get hoopla.

BenDeLaCreme (22:42)

No, no. But I knew Ru would.

Jesse David Fox (22:46)

And it was bold. It was. I think Rue was like, that is an extremely bold way to start this.

BenDeLaCreme (22:52)

Yeah, no, I. And I, I felt really good about, you know, it's. As soon as I, as we were saying, as soon as I start to overthink anything, it's gone, you know, and so it was really, it was my first inclination, it was my first instinct, and, and generally those are the ones I find I should follow.

Jesse David Fox (23:10)

But as much as you overthink both, you're able to do it. You're able to think deeply about your work when you're in it. Are you, when you're doing the Snatch Game, are you ultimately, like, in so much as. Even though you're trying to remember the Voice, are you ultimately like, that's all part of a sort of flow state.

BenDeLaCreme (23:26)

It's, it's. It. All of that exists in the prep work. And then it's like, yeah. And then I sort of black out and then it's over. You know, it's. Yeah, I mean, it's very much. I do a lot of thinking in advance, and that is what allows me to not be doing it at the time. And I think that's something. Right. Like, the lack of preparation, I think is a, you know, people thinking like, I'm gonna solve these problems in the moment, I want them already solved so I can just be in that moment.

Jesse David Fox (23:57)

Do you have a moment that stands out that you're most proud of from.

BenDeLaCreme (24:01)

The Snatch Game specifically? I mean, I will say we originated language is one of my finest moments. I really, in terms of. I actually didn't remember that moment until it aired. And I was like, oh, yeah, that was good. I was there for that.

Jesse David Fox (24:14)

Yeah. I mean, it's probably the best, not pre written thing that a person has said in the show. It is remarkable.

BenDeLaCreme (24:22)

And that was really like that example of, I've done enough preparation that I'm just sitting in this and it just is gonna come out, you know, so.

Jesse David Fox (24:30)

To back up to this idea that I propose about you and the sort of matrix of it, but you know, you go into. You were on season six, you were figuring out, you're figuring out just sort of like, how can I Showcase some of myself. And then you go back into All Stars and with an intention to, like, really show all your stuff. That was the goal, which would be. And I imagine you're like, this is working. Like, I have an intention. And it's like, my intention is working exactly. Probably better than anyone could plan. And do you have a moment from that run that you're like, this is. You really were like, this is exactly how I think it should be going. A moment that stands out where you're. And not also then dealing with the, like, feeling the hands of the show, trying to make it more dramatic.

BenDeLaCreme (25:17)

Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (25:18)

Whereas there was, like, a purity of, like, this is exactly what I was hoping from this experience.

BenDeLaCreme (25:23)

You know, I think there were quite a few of those. It really. I just went in that second time being. You know, I. I think the big thing was the first time, I'd never been in a television studio before. I'd never been in that scenario. I was so just nervous that I wasn't gonna know how to step up and do the thing. And the second time, I really had to prepare myself again in this way where I was just like, we're just all at the same job. We're just different. Like, I'm just in a different department. But ultimately, my department is pretty important, you know, and. And the other people in the room, whether they be RuPaul or a PA, we're all just, like, here doing our job. And that really allowed me, I think, to take each challenge. And also being freed of what I wanted to do on the first season, which was teach everyone my character so they would know what to expect when they came to a show. But being freed of that, it was just, like leaning as hard as possible into every assignment. I think the cougar one was really fun for me to get to. She was such an opposite direction for me and such an extreme. And I just felt like I knew, as somebody who. Who deeply dislikes all of that unscripted television, I was just like, I know this woman. And. And I also, you know, I think Goth Kitty from the final thing, really, whether I knew it or not in the time played to one of my strengths, which was that I was looking at what the other girls were doing, and I was like, you know, they all chose their characters. Trixie chose IQ Kitty. Right. This very specific sexy nerd character. Like, super specific. And then the other queens were like, I'm Glitt Kitty. I'm pretty Kitty. Right. It was like. I don't even remember what the names were. They were all, basically, I'm a drag queen. And I was like, well, someone's got to make this feel like a cohesive thing. There's got to be another specific character who's got to lean in the opposite direction. And, you know, and that's something I. I have realized since that I'm very good at is seeing where the hole is. And so that's something that I feel very proud of.

Jesse David Fox (27:27)

Yeah. Because you essentially realized what the show needed from the person who was winning the challenges. Like, it's. It's less. It's. It. And while also articulating your perspective on it, which is like. I think a lot of queens are just like, how can I win this? You're like, this is a TV show.

BenDeLaCreme (27:45)

Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (27:46)

You need to win it by succeeding at making the TV show what they need, which is the person who wins the challenge.

BenDeLaCreme (27:51)

You have to kind of think like a producer.

Jesse David Fox (27:53)

Yeah, yeah. And I don't. And I think we'll get into the producer aspect right now. So. Have you ever talked about how you eliminated yourself on Drag Race?

BenDeLaCreme (28:02)

What? I. I do not recall, so I will.

Jesse David Fox (28:07)

I'll. To anyone who has not watched Drag Race, how would you describe what happened?

BenDeLaCreme (28:14)

That is not usually how that starts. Yeah, well, I mean, just if we're explaining it to somebody. I won a lot of challenges on this. This TV show I was on, and I didn't necessarily expect it, but I wound up winning the most challenges anyone had won on a single season. And I realized that I was very much in charge of what happened to me next. And I did not enjoy the element of the show that meant if you won, you had to send somebody home. So I felt very conflicted about the whole thing. And then suddenly, one episode, I realized, oh, I am fully in control. I don't have to do that thing anymore. I've established that I can win this thing. And I eliminated myself and shocked everyone in the room and the world more than I expected. And it was truly one of the most satisfying things I've ever had the opportunity to do.

Jesse David Fox (29:11)

So you have denied it was all planned. And how could it be? You couldn't know you're going to win every challenge. No one's ever done that before.

BenDeLaCreme (29:19)

But, in fact, I was prepared to go home first. I went in being like, I have to be ready to accept that that could happen in order to do this at all. Right.

Jesse David Fox (29:31)

Because that's the mirror image of this, which is if I care about not being like. To accept. To self eliminate, I also have to accept that Like, I cannot let them decide if I won or lose by eliminating the first challenge. It's all the sort of mindset that went into it. So, like, obviously you did not plan it, but, like, when you had the idea, as a person who likes having ideas, were you, like, this is good tv. Like, where you were able to understand that, like, this would look planned in. Like, you successfully produced the show? Did you have the moment of. I mean, obviously it all was quick, and maybe it happened right afterwards, but were you able to at least see that? You're like. Did it feel like a further articulation of, like, what you set out to do when you're on the show, which is, like, express your abilities, which part of it it is producing?

BenDeLaCreme (30:17)

Yeah, you know, I. I don't think at the time, I was thinking about it from a producer's standpoint other than I know no one's gonna stop me because this is too good of an episode. You know, it was a thing where at first I was like, all right, And. And I was hiding this activity of find of. You know, I snuck the sharpie and the white out into my bra and tried to do it quickly. And. But. But there was the concern that someone from the booth would say, absolutely not. But before it happened, I was like, that is. There's. I am just giving them too good a thing to stop. And. And then there was a concern of, would I win the lip sync? And I'm just gonna say, I. I don't know. Whatever. Nobody over there cares anymore. I definitely didn't win that lip sync. I didn't know a single word to that song, but I knew. I was like, but this is what's happening.

Jesse David Fox (31:13)

Yeah, it did help for the. She.

BenDeLaCreme (31:17)

The.

Jesse David Fox (31:17)

Your competitor took her wig off, which is, like, an easy way for them to make it so someone doesn't win.

BenDeLaCreme (31:21)

Right.

Jesse David Fox (31:22)

I. It is rewatching. And you're like, wait, how's this gonna work? She is losing. She's doing as bad as a person can do while. And then. Because. And baby. Baby was doing great, baby. And then she took. And you're like. And then. But again, you're just like, no one will. That's part of the lore of.

BenDeLaCreme (31:40)

I mean, I barely. Like, there are barely shots of me, and that looks like they were trying to cut around me so hard.

Jesse David Fox (31:48)

But they're like, everyone knew. Because I do think, as I said, like, it changed the show because I do think it taught the show. Oh, we can produce. We. We can do what Ben did. But to every single. These are little pawns and we can have them be much more. It's felt like previous, they're like, oh, we can make drama per episode or something, but not like long builds of a person success or failures on the show. It did feel like they realized we can control these people much more.

BenDeLaCreme (32:15)

Well, I think as like a very neurotic person, I did. I felt the heavy hand of that control on set and I resented it deeply. You know, it was something that, you know, and there's lots of other aspects of. Right. Like I'm really trash talking. There's lots of other aspects of the show that I genuinely love and lots of people on set who gave me a great experience. Right. But, but I think my, one of the number one things in life on or off TV is I do not like being manipulated. And you know, they were, they were, they were orchestrating arguments between people and I just, I was, it was, what I really realized is they're producing me. I wasn't thinking about producing the show, but I was thinking about producing myself.

Jesse David Fox (33:02)

Yeah, yeah.

BenDeLaCreme (33:03)

You know, I was like, I, I, I, I can ultimately, I can make the choices of what material I'm going to give them. And in the way, in the same way that I'm doing with these characters, you know, where it's, there's, there is no one in the idea that they are in charge of me is, is something they are trying to convince me rather than something that is objectively true. Right.

Jesse David Fox (33:29)

I think a lot of people think, oh, the way to win is to sort of like, like they're trying to produce me and I will sort of play along with them. Where it's like, no, you can sort of, you could be the producer essentially like you're essentially like a showrunner for your story if you allow yourself to be that confident in terms of how you're presenting.

BenDeLaCreme (33:46)

There are, there are two games happening at once and a lot of people think one game is the game, but it's the other one.

Jesse David Fox (33:54)

Yeah. You get asked obviously about the self elimination all the time. It's one of the great moments in reality tv. But, but it is a creative decision you made. What impact did it then have on your, your, your confidence in your creative decisions there afterwards?

BenDeLaCreme (34:10)

Yeah, I mean it was, it was a very scary, high risk thing to do, but it really very much, I took that energy of I am actually the only person who knows best for me and for my work. And I'd been trapped in this thing kind of post my first season of Drag Race where I had been Doing a lot of this sort of very queer narrative work and sort of like these essentially plays and no one knew what to do with that. In what was becoming the Drag Race industry, where it's like you put out an album and you do all these club tours and make a bunch of music videos and so, so kind of people were having trouble. I was like, this is what I have, I have all these scripts, I have all this established stuff and people just didn't know what to do with it. And so, yeah, after that next season, I just, I sort of realized, oh, I can, I can be the one to do this. Why am I waiting on someone else? And that's when I started my production company and started just real. I, I knowing, following that intuition that I know a Flip Joke Wilson joke is gonna work, if that is what I'm putting out there, I, I trust my instinct. I know the audience will be there even if the middlemen don't get it. So I'm just going to cut them out.

Jesse David Fox (35:43)

What do you say to anyone who suggests that Drag Race ruined drag?

BenDeLaCreme (35:48)

I would say that it, I, I get what they're talking about and it's obviously also given drag a platform that it would, I'm not going to say would never. Who knows what parallel universe we'd be running in but, but that it hadn't had prior and it has given people a, an, an understanding of, of who drag queens are. It's allowed more audiences to feel that it is for them and buy tickets to see the show. Right. So even, you know, I think one thing that's hard is that a lot of the queens who haven't been on the show, who are exceptionally talented, some of whom are a generation older, who are the ones who, they don't get those same ticket sales necessarily, except that I will say that there is a, there's a wider net being cast. And so if you can get those people in the door because they think they understand what drag is and they loved something on Drag Race, a bunch of Drag Race references or whatever is only going to go so far. They're not going to buy that second ticket. Right. But if you can give them something they might not know that's the thing they want, but, but it'll keep them coming back. And that is how you keep what drag has always been alive through Drag Race.

Jesse David Fox (37:05)

So as, as you mentioned, you start a production company and you produce a lot of work for stage, you'll work with drag, drag queens and help them develop one person shows. And, and it has Extension. The. The. The ability to sort of see a person, I think, is one of your great gifts in terms of, like, you know, Jinx is a very talented person, for example, but, like, how do we package Jinx to maximize all of what the show can be? So I want to talk about your ability to do that and start with Jinx. Can you think of a story or moment that captures what it's like for you guys to work together?

BenDeLaCreme (37:42)

Oh, in terms of our collaborative.

Jesse David Fox (37:45)

Yeah, Just sort of like, I guess it's either you saw definitely not the story of how you met each other. I will not force you to retell the story. To summarize, you met Jinx in Seattle, like, 20 years ago. Someone said, you should see Jinx. She was performing in Starbucks and Mutual. If we don't work together, we will be enemies. That is the story. So think about, like, this is Jinx's thing, and figuring out how to translate it, figuring out what is special about Jinx, just what it's like collaborating that.

BenDeLaCreme (38:19)

Really captures well, I think maybe the best. The simplest example of that is her Carnegie hall show that was this last February that I directed, and we worked on together. Ultimately, I wrote the script for. And sort of the way that that process happened was that I went to her house in Portland and sat on a couch with her, and she smoked a bunch of weed and. And talked, which is what she does very well. And I took, I think, 70 pages of notes and just kind of prompted her about, you know, all sorts of different stuff. And. And I had her do some free writing on some specific concepts. And then. Yeah, and then I love to pull it together and sort of figure out, all right, well, what's the. What's the bottom line here? What can we. Like, why do we identify with any of this stuff? You know, and she was revisiting a bunch of, you know, she kept sort of talking about goddess imagery. Right? She's very. And. But like a bunch of other stuff as well. But I was like, I think this goddess imagery, I think that's our through line, you know, because also I can see her from the outside. And I'm like, there's a grandiosity to this, right? She's so relatable, and she's also so grand, Right? And that allows us space to have a perspective on the character that she doesn't know, which I think is really important in drag. It's important to see where the artist and the character diverge and the artist is commenting on the character in real time. I find that Fascinating. And so, yeah, I sort of condensed this whole thing. Found the through lines, found the beats, found the perspective. And then I just love. I love when I get to write dick jokes because my character is. Is, you know, so innocent. Anything she says that's innuendo she doesn't know she's saying. And Jinx just gets to go for it. I wrote. I wrote a joke for Jinx that was like a setup for a physical joke. That is one of my favorites, where, you know, she's talking about all the men she slept with. She's talking, and then she's sort of moving into trying to find love. And it's a little bit more of a sort of gentle, vulnerable thing. And she says, you know, maybe life isn't about a conveyor belt of dicks like Lucy and the Chocolate Factory. And then it was just a setup for her to do a whole thing. And the Carnegie audience. And I was like, I don't know. This is a big swing. We'll see. The Carnegie audience erupted, but three people walked out, and I was like, that.

Jesse David Fox (41:02)

That's amazing.

BenDeLaCreme (41:03)

That is my finest moment.

Jesse David Fox (41:04)

I wonder what they were. They think it was gonna be more serious? I don't know. That's amazing.

BenDeLaCreme (41:11)

They thought they were going to story hour.

Jesse David Fox (41:14)

Yeah. Or that. Or I feel like maybe Carnegie hall does subscription. So there are people who just have.

BenDeLaCreme (41:20)

There is that as well. But there's also only so much that we can really show through Drag race. Right. I mean, I think drag race, as subversive as it can be, and as far as they let the queens push the envelope, and it itself pushes the envelope, which I think is great. It still. Still has parameters that are not on us when we're on stage. Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (41:40)

Yeah. At this point, do you have multiple characters in your head? Like, do you have Jinx in your head at this point?

BenDeLaCreme (41:47)

Oh, very much so. It's very. I can just sit down and rate her very easily. But, you know, I. Even though I have this one character that I sort of work with predominantly in my solo work, I play a lot of other characters as well, which is also part of why I wanted to go into season three and. And kind of show that off. But so I do feel like I have sort of. I have this. This horrible blonde kind of bachelorette that is a reoccurring character. I have a very gruff, conservative straight man. I have a horrific, overly tan twink. And I sort of resp. You know, and I know all of their voices pretty well.

Jesse David Fox (42:29)

You know, I don't know what Scenario would necessate. Necessitate. Necessitate this. What? I don't know what scenario this would happen, but do you think there'd be a way where be a night where you did Jinx and Jinx did Dela?

BenDeLaCreme (42:43)

Okay, so funny you should ask because there is. There. There is. I, I never like to say anything about the upcoming holiday show because I. Well, no, I, because I, I w. I, I. 90% of what I write is I edit out. And I actually think that's one of my strengths, you know, is, but is, you know, willingness to just be like, I loved that idea, but it doesn't work, you know, but every year jinx has like 30 pitches that she gives over and over and over again that I'm like, no one of them made it in two years ago, which is that she has wanted to have sex with Krampus on stage for so many years. But it finally was a thing where it was like, okay, I think I know the context for this. She has wanted to Freaky Friday us over and over and over. And I'm just like, that is too limiting. Like, there are, there's such a, it's a funny premise when you put it out there. But like, we don't. Nobody wants to watch us do bad impressions of each other all night, you know, but you know, this year I said, if there's going to be a Freaky Friday bit, this is the year to do it and it might not be sustainable for a whole show. And I, and we are going to find the way to do it. I do not want us doing bad impressions of each other. That is not interesting. But if Dela suddenly found herself in Jinx's body and crumbled to the floor because she's never been so cripplingly high before in her life and Jinx found herself in Dela's body and started screaming because she's never had to feel her feelings before. Like that. That, that's interesting to me.

Jesse David Fox (44:32)

It's like literally when I asked it and you paused, I was like, free Friday.

BenDeLaCreme (44:37)

And you know what? I retain the right to cut it all together. But we'll see.

Jesse David Fox (44:42)

When I spoke to Jinx after she won the All Champions season of All Stars, she seemed like you were heavily involved in the creative of it. Can you talk about what that was like? Because it did feel like you almost again were able to be the showrunner for Jinx's all time run, returning to that show, especially that season where they really let the queens be, like, produce your segments. If you need to.

BenDeLaCreme (45:05)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I. That's very sweet that she talks about it in that way. I definitely. I helped her prepare a lot, in many ways, emotionally. Right. Because it's a big thing to go into. And really just being like you've. You already. You already know what you're doing going into this. You have honed your craft, you know. But I mean, even when she first got the offer, she called me pretty quickly and she was like, I don't know if I should do this. And I was like, you're a crazy person. But yeah, she tried a bunch of Snatch Game characters out on me and we really. I was like, Judy is. Judy's what you gotta go for. You know, she. She has a Meryl Streep that is largely non verbal and is pretty much just from death becomes her. But, but, but it's great. But I was. I was like, that doesn't have the legs. But. But yeah, really sort of. I. We talked through a lot of the potential beats. We talked through, you know, sort of what she might show off in her talent, what kind of roast jokes. There's always that. And we talked a lot about her looks because those are not necessarily where her attention always lies. So. So yeah, it was. It was really cool to be able to kind of have her trust me. I mean, that's the big thing, right? When somebody trusts you enough to. To let you follow your intuition for them.

Jesse David Fox (46:32)

Yeah. Is there anything you want to take credit for specifically?

BenDeLaCreme (46:38)

I wouldn't dare, but there's things you'd want. I would not dare.

Jesse David Fox (46:42)

How long you've been doing the Christmas show now?

BenDeLaCreme (46:45)

This one. So I've been doing Christmas shows in some form for 18 years, but this will be the eighth year of this one.

Jesse David Fox (46:51)

Yeah. I was rewatching the special that you filmed, and there's the moment where you're talking to the eggnog, which is your grandmother, and it's a puppet. And I'm like, this is Pee Wee Herman. And you obviously seen the Pee Wee Herman Christmas special.

BenDeLaCreme (47:05)

Oh, my God.

Jesse David Fox (47:06)

It is a remarkable thing. The thing that now is remarkable is that this aired on primetime and cbs. It is a very queer text. I just want to give you an opportunity to talk about B Wee Herman. What is the significance of that character and that work? Both was or is, as you think of it, as a touchstone for you?

BenDeLaCreme (47:26)

Yeah, you know, I've just always been. I was always so drawn to it, and a lot of things that I was drawn to as a kid also made Me very uncomfortable. You know, a lot of things that I love now were things that I sort of, like, would look at and turn away. And, you know, and Pee Wee's Playhouse was one of those things. And I really didn't know why, but it's very clear now. You know, it's. I think, Pee Wee, to me, the playhouse worked so well because it is a character that has no right to exist in our world. The laws of, you know, classical reality and physics barely apply, and you don't know the rules.

Jesse David Fox (48:20)

But.

BenDeLaCreme (48:20)

But Pee Wee does. And that's all that you need, is for him to believe. For Paul Rubens to believe so firmly in this character, to know him so well, that you don't need to understand his backstory. You don't need to understand how any of us got here or how any of this works, because you trust him, right? There's this. I mean, he's so wild. So, you know, a character that. That in less capable hands would feel very unsafe, right? Just, like, erratic, like, what's he gonna do, right? But there is just this sense of care. And I think that comes out that is related to dipping into the structure of. Of children's television, really, and. And approaching, you know, even though he's wild, he's still approaching the viewer in the same way Mr. Rogers does. He's taking your hand and he's telling you it's gonna be okay whatever we do next next, you know, And. And that is something that I really. That approachability is something that I identify with strongly, and it's part of why I've grown to love comedy more and more all the time, is because I know that if you can make somebody laugh, you can take down those walls and you can bring them wherever you want to bring them, you know? And, you know, obviously, looking at Pee Wee later, after the Paul Rubens documentary, all the rest of it, it's, you know, the. The layers peel away more and more, and it becomes clearer and clearer, you know, how much this man was expressing his reality through artifice. And that is one of. You know, I mean, I went to. I went to school for Fine arts, and. And that was. That was really my big takeaway from my education, was that, you know, you watch so many people kind of like, tell their personal story through something, and you're like, okay, well, cool. That's a thing that happened to you. But how do you distill what the feeling is that you want to communicate? And then how can you express that feeling in a way that makes other people feel the feeling. And that's what Paul Reubens did, right? Like this queer joy that people felt, not knowing it was queer joy. Yeah. And you don't feel like he's exposing anything about himself, but he's exposing everything about himself.

Jesse David Fox (50:41)

Yeah. I think that is the thing that. When I started watching Drag Race, I was like, the thing that I think about a lot as a person who writes about and talks a lot of comedians, is this obsession with equating truth with autobiography and not some sort of artistic truth and understanding, whatever the difference is. And I do think that you can. The audience has their own perspective on it, and if you just tell them your autobiography doesn't mean anything, you have to figure out the ways to make them feel it. Did you ever it make meet Paul Rubins or have an opportunity to.

BenDeLaCreme (51:15)

I. I never did. I always wanted to. However, during the pandemic, oddly, through social media, I. I made friends with Sid Croft, who is amazing. I think he's probably 96 now, and he is so fascinating. He has such an incredible mind. And, you know, after it was safe, I had the opportunity to go to his house that honestly looks a little like Pee Wee's playhouse in in the Hills. Um, but when I was doing. We did like a. A live on Instagram interview thing, and I was talking about Peewee and his. His influence, and he and Sid Croft were very close friends. And Sid was like, oh, well, Paul's probably watching this right now. And I was like, what? And I looked at the comments that are going through, and he goes, no, I'm not. And Sid was like, he's probably loving this. And he goes, goes, no, I'm not. Right. It was just. It was perfect. And that's the closest I've ever come, but it was pretty great.

Jesse David Fox (52:16)

Unbelievable. Wow, this is fascinating. What is it about Christmas that lends itself to drag?

BenDeLaCreme (52:27)

Oh, I think that. I mean, aesthetically, it's a pretty lateral shift. You know, it's just. Obviously, the trappings of fur and sequin are already there, so it's pretty easy to just grab whatever's in the. Especially if you're a young drag queen working with limited resources. You know, you can hot glue a lot of garlands on yourself, but I think for me, I think drag is a way of dealing with trauma a lot of the time. And the holidays are fraught with that for a lot of people, and especially queer people, and specifically me. And I. You know, I really feel like the reason our current political climate. Right. People are asking a lot about, you know, how do you feel about this? How are you, you know, how are you gonna combat this? And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's exactly where this comes from. You know, it's drag is. Flourishes, is under duress because it is a way of making your, you know, the, the things that are, that are bringing sorrow and pain to your life into something beautiful, channeling it into that. And so I mean, the holidays as a specific time of year where people are especially miserable, but having to perform happiness is, is, is ripe for the pickin in terms of what we do with drag, you know, and so that's. It came from a place of wanting to make fun of that idea, but also wanting to create a space for myself. I mean, I, the first holiday show that I ever did was in like 2007 or 8 or something. And it, its actual function in my life was so that I would not have to go home for Christmas anymore. I, I had a gig, I couldn't go home.

Jesse David Fox (54:36)

Yeah.

BenDeLaCreme (54:36)

And so I assembled a bunch of weirdo queers and we made some art. And pretty automatically that art was about reclamation of homecoming and queering Christmas and getting people in a room to, to do that together. And that's just the bottom line of what it's continue about for me. You know, it's a reclamation. It's about, it's what drag does best. It's creating someone that you can look to, to guide the community. I mean, it sounds grandiose, but it is what I think drag is.

Jesse David Fox (55:20)

You mentioned the sort of performance aspect, and I was thinking you have, there are people who, I think artists who can see the matrix and there's sort of reasons that they're able to do that. And you, you have a few, you have one. You just always have been an artist and artists can see sort of the world that it is. You're growing up a queer kid and not at a time where that was still not normalized. And you lost your mother at a young age. And I think that is another way where people are like, wait, this all is a fake charade we're putting on to deny the fact that we're all going to die?

BenDeLaCreme (55:49)

Oh, when you were a child watching adults mourn like it. Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (55:53)

Do you have a memory where you're, especially during Christmas or where you're like, like this is fake. We're witnessing. And you really saw everything for what it was?

BenDeLaCreme (56:05)

Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to think of like a very specific early moment where I saw that the family was really Just sort of like gritting its teeth and getting through it with. I mean, my. Although I really disliked Christmas, you know, sort of once I. I hit adolescence when I was young, it seemed so. I mean, it was geared for the kids. And I grew up in Connecticut and it was snowy and beautiful and, you know, the tree was a pine tree that someone had cut down in the woods. And, you know, and it was. And we literally would stand around the tree and sing carols and it was. I mean, it was over the top. And as a kid, I was like, this is great. But, yeah, slowly kind of just becoming aware of the way around the table, people were really not talking about anything. And the transactional nature of gift giving was a big first clue. Right. There's a joke that I put in the Christmas special about getting blank thank you cards as a gift. That is a thing that I received as a gift when I was a child. It really was like, you owe me one. And I think I have an uncle and his wife who are now full on Trumpers. And I remember being around the table and this was, I believe, right after 9, 11. So it was like I already kind of knew what was. You know, I. I was, I was long onto this because at this point, you know, I was in college. But I just think of this all the time, is her talking about how she was furious that at the airport she had to go through security because white women were not the problem, and just watching everyone else at the table clench and say nothing. I think that was. That was not my realization, but I think that might have been the era. I was like, I'm not coming back to this.

Jesse David Fox (58:04)

That's fair. There are drag queens seemingly, that though it starts as a distinct character, they're sort of emerging. And this happens with stand up comedians. It happens like for professional wrestlers, where that is actually the art of it, which is like, oh, how can I go back and forth and you don't know where the Persona is or whatever. And then you seem to have somewhat of a clear division. It's almost like a severance quality. But also where it's like time to, you know, where, like De La Seemly only lives when on stage. And then like gets, you know, how do you see it? What is the relationship? How much is she? You. Does it feel fully like, you know, puppeteers do with their puppets? Like, what is it and how has it changed over time? Time.

BenDeLaCreme (58:46)

It's funny. Yeah. I mean, the puppeteer thing is funny that you should say. Only because I compare her to a Muppet So often, because I think of that as sort of her logic and the level at which she operates. But also, you know, again, it's like we. We know those Muppets. We get their characters, we empathize with them, and they are also these crazy archetypes that are both based on archetypes we knew and archetypes that they're newly creating. And they are. Are just the perfect tools to share perspectives, whether that those perspectives actually belong to that character or not. And so, you know, I do see Dela as a distinct character from myself at this point. I know her so well. I don't really have. I don't have to think about it. I can just put her on. But. But, yeah, but she's. But she is a tool for me to. It's that. That truth through artifice thing. I can. I can say the things that I really think and feel through this character who expresses them in a very different way. You know, as a person who is somewhat pessimistic and cynical and has struggled with depression for my entire life, I. You know, Daela comes at it from the ultimate. The. The opposite angle. But. But she can say all the things in a way that is more approachable. Yeah, yeah.

Jesse David Fox (60:14)

It's interesting. So when you say Muppet, I was thinking about, like, ultimately, a great character is like a two year old can watch Sesame street and know the game of all the characters already.

BenDeLaCreme (60:25)

Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (60:25)

Before they know it, you know, it's just like Grover walks in and you're like, grover's silly. And you're like, yeah, that's kind of like the thing.

BenDeLaCreme (60:32)

Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (60:32)

And that's essentially like, I imagine a pretty young kid can be like, oh, I kind of. Of don't know, like, the full capacity of it. Be like, oh, I know what Dayla's whole thing is.

BenDeLaCreme (60:40)

Yeah.

Jesse David Fox (60:41)

You mentioned the sort of struggle with depression. And I feel like on Drag Race Season 6, it had a very clean narrative. It was like your mom died and then you're depressed, and then you created a character who was bubbly and it seems like. And I get it. Like, that's, you know, if you had a sentence to try to describe a character, I think it was fair and like. But in interviews, it seemingly is a much more complicated thing. And you said something which I thought was really interesting, which is you sort of always thought of yourself as a fundamentally sad person, but at the same time, your creation, the thing you spend most of your time doing, is a fundamentally happy character. And I was wondering how you. Now that you've Been doing it for so long. How do you reconcile those things?

BenDeLaCreme (61:23)

Well, I would say the art making does bring me great joy. I am very happy when I'm. When I'm making work, and I always have been. And, you know, as a kid who felt pretty alienated and isolated, it was playing pretend where I found joy. And I still think at its best, what I do is that. And, and, and it makes sense to me that I would work so hard at what I do when. When that is my place of joy, you know, so. Yeah, and. And I have a lot to say about the ways in which I wish the world and humans treated each other differently. And I have had the good fortune of finding a vehicle where I get to a little bit affect that. I don't know if that's even remotely an answer to your question.

Jesse David Fox (62:29)

Well, I think the re.

BenDeLaCreme (62:30)

Guide me. I'll try again.

Jesse David Fox (62:31)

Sure. The thing I was thinking about is, again, it's like Drag Race season six. It was like this person's mother died, they were depressed, then they have a happy character. And I actually think spending some time listening to you in interviews, it seems like actually, actually All Stars 3 was more of a tribute to your mother because it was a focus on the art of drag in opposition to anything else. It's like your mom was an artist and seemingly was motivated to make the art regardless. And that seemed like All Stars 3 is a. Like, I don't know, a punk rock testament to, like, I'm here to make art. And not as, Like, I'm not here to make friends. I'm not here to make enemies. I'm not here to make television. I'm here to express myself. And I think that is the thing that I think is the part that was missing in the sort of narrative of it, which is sort of like, she's happy here, she's upset here, and it's like, whatever. And I think it's like, actually, it's like the. You are an artist. It's probably the thing.

BenDeLaCreme (63:29)

Yeah. And, you know. Yeah, exactly. My mom was an artist. And still, you know, it's interesting, you know, when you lose a parent as a very young kid, they become sort of, you know, a saintly figure. And it's interesting to get older and sort of like, look back and be like, oh, that was a human with flaws. But I still. I mean, her artistic practice was really inspiring to me. And I know later, just from gathering other information, that she really doubted her abilities as an artist, which was also. I was like, oh, that's wonderful. To know, because, you know, I look back at her and she was. She was a visual artist. She was always in her studio. She was always drawing and painting and sculpting, and she was, I can objectively say, very good. I know everyone would say that about their mom, probably, but she was very good and. And she just created out of a passion for creating, and she instilled that in me from a young age. I was always in her studio. I had a little drafting board next to her drafting board, and we would just work. We would just make stuff for hours. And it was to no end. I mean, she illustrated children's books. She did a lot of commercial work, but she mostly created for the Joy of It. And so she really. Yeah. I mean, that. I was so lucky to be introduced to that from the get.

Jesse David Fox (64:49)

Yeah. You did the. When the art you made as a kid, does it feel representative of this art you make now? Like, can you see and be like.

BenDeLaCreme (64:57)

That'S very much so. It's just. It's silly and it's goofy and it's joyful and it's. And I got made. I. I was recognized when I was a kid in school as everyone recognized me as a really good visual artist. But at some point, kids started making fun of me because my art wasn't, you know, it was really. It was like purple dragons and like, you know, and it was cool kid art, right? It was. I mean, but it was just like, it was goofy in a way that kids were like, this is too childlike. But ultimately, I think that sense of whimsy is something I've had to fight to keep. And I love whimsy. I. You know, and I. But I look at that art and I'm like, okay, this is the visual representation of this. But actually, then I look at my art and in high school and at the beginning of college, and. And it's very funny. It really starts to deal with gender in a way that now I expect, you know, it's a lot of. You know, I did a lot of sculptural work that was kind of this. Like this dual sort of. I'm attracted to and repulsed by this sort of over the top femininity. And it was sort of like. Like Nosferatu, like monsters, but with, like, big luscious lips and, like, beautiful lash. And it was. You know, it was. And I look at that now and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's really. I just still have the same thing to say.

Jesse David Fox (66:25)

Yeah. When you're at the Art Institute of Chicago you try to incorporate drag in your work, and seemingly the message you received was that drag is not a high art. And it's an interesting thing to. I imagine you have reflected upon that idea a lot as a person who's pursued it. I think about it when I write about comedy or think about comedy, because comedy, again, is also considered a low art. And it's like. And is that. Is what. Is that what it's good about, comedies? That is a low art. Like, should it be considered a high art? I think that, you know, like, it's as good as paintings I've seen. But then part of its power is that I was curious how your thinking about it has evolved. What do you. How do you. Where do you land currently? Sort of, because I think, I imagine it's a. It will change as you. You pursue each project. But. Yeah, where. Where are you on that philosophical, I guess, question?

BenDeLaCreme (67:19)

Yeah, I mean, I think it. It's like, also has to do with how you're defining high art. Right. And who's defining it. And I mean, to me, there is no limit to what I can express or do through drag. And I find that still oftentimes when people are complimenting my work or saying that they really love it, they're like, well, but it's not even drag. It's sort of more than drag, you know, And I'm like, it's actually drag. Like, it actually doesn't have to be more than drag in order to accomplish something. All of this can be done and still be drag. And that is fascinating to me. And, you know, and then I'll have sometimes people be like, oh, well, what's next for you? Do you think you'll move out of drag? And I'm like, no, what's next for me is to continue to build, continue to grow as an artist and to. To make more things. And this is the vehicle that I love, you know, And I think that what I realized in school was I really, really value my education. I feel like I use what I learned in that context a lot. And for a while, I really was. Felt like I'd missed out by not going to school for theater. And now I actually am like, oh, I think that very much is. Is part of how I found the success I found. But, you know, one of the things that I didn't love was really realizing this sort of like, inaccessible ivory tower that. That we're building in the fine arts world and how part of what it. What it seemed to me on a very basic level, people. How people Were defining high art was that you had to have the education in order to get it.

Jesse David Fox (69:04)

Yeah.

BenDeLaCreme (69:05)

Or to relate to it. And, and I. And like, who is this for? If we're just learning how to make art for each other, then like, why are we even going to leave this school? You know? And, and I, I want to give people an entryway. I want to give people a door that is welcoming like Paul Reubens did, like comedians do and like drag did for me. It's like this shiny, fun thing that makes you want to move towards it. And you know, that's why I love a vaudevillian sensibility. It's art for the people. It's, you know, it's why I love burlesque. It's why I love all of this stuff. Is, it's, is. It's welcoming. And then you can do all the stuff that high art does at its best. And it can all be one thing.

Jesse David Fox (69:58)

Do you want to know the story of how, how art was institutionalized? Do you know the story?

BenDeLaCreme (70:03)

No.

Jesse David Fox (70:04)

So in the 18, this is not gonna make it. And maybe it is. We'll decide. Well, it'll be just me giving you century, man.

BenDeLaCreme (70:10)

Splitting history like that.

Jesse David Fox (70:11)

So there was no such thing as highbrow and Lowbrow in the 1800s. Shakespeare was just theater. It was just like what you went to. Like you would see, there'd be a Shakespeare play and then there'd be like essentially long form sketch comedy in between. It was just sort of the thing. It was, it was the only thing people consumed. It was mass appeal. And as replacement result, the working class version of doing it became more popular than the sort of classic tradition way of doing it. And specifically there was the most famous Shakespearean actor in England and then there was the American most famous Shakespearean actor. And the American Shakespearean actor, who was doing a sort of more low brow version, would book shows in the same city as the. A British person as a way of sort of like taunting, like this is what Shakespeare should be like. And rich people did not like that this was happening. They did not like how poor people behaved at the theater. So it all culminated in this sort of run in New York City where the, where like the aristocracy of the time was like, we're going to do a run of shows of this great actor, this British actor. And working class people came, started throwing tomatoes on the stage and stuff like that. So the British actor was like, I'm done. I, I can't perform here anymore. And they're like, do another show. It Resulted in a riot. It's called the Astor Place riots. People died because the National Guard was caught in to sort of protect Shakespearean actors. So what started from there, and there's other trends that are happening where central rich people do not like how poor people behaved in their space, was that it was not a. Enough to have separate sections. It was not enough to have separate theaters even they had to have separate art forms. So now, as a result, there was a variety of movements, all created by rich people to make it so there was barriers of entry to reach what is now called high art, Just as a distinction between what they thought was, like, low culture people. So that's when museums used to be just like where you would see a tree and where you would see a painting and where you might like. There was not a clear distinction of. There was art museums and natural history museums. There just sort of were museums. Museum did not necessarily mean art museum. Then, like, no, there's these art museums, and to understand art, you have to go to college to understand it. This was a thing that they invented. They started creating rules of what people should behave like in theaters, of the things. No spitting, no coughing, no laughing, no loud laughing was looked down upon. And this then coincided with the boom of popular culture in the early 20th century with industrialization. And so then that is sort of what became the divide between popular culture and high culture. And then when you look at a lot of the attempts to take certain art forms more seriously, like film, for example, Always it is. Film was taken more seriously by taking any movies that adhere to the standards of low people and be like, this is bad. Bad movies. This is why comedy movies always get bad reviews. This is all to say the institutional idea of art was like, very. It was a very deliberate campaign created by.

BenDeLaCreme (73:31)

That is.

Jesse David Fox (73:31)

So that is in chapter two of the book.

BenDeLaCreme (73:34)

Oh, my God. All right.

Jesse David Fox (73:36)

Well, it was. It was the part of the book that I had the most joy researching and had to cut so much out of because it. When I learned about the Astor Place riots, I was like, this is the most interesting thing that has ever happened. There should be a movie about this. And then I had paragraphs and paragraphs about the astroplace riots, and I was like, this is too much. But this is all to say it was not an accident. I think there's a. There's a certain belief that it's always been. But like, it. It truly was like people very much. I don't. I am personally annoyed at this. I have enough money to create a.

BenDeLaCreme (74:09)

Division that Makes a lot of sense and never, never would have occurred to me.

Jesse David Fox (74:15)

Y.

BenDeLaCreme (74:15)

Thank you.

Jesse David Fox (74:16)

I felt like, you know, you've been talking so much and you deserve to learn something. What is your most embarrassingly ambitious goal.

BenDeLaCreme (74:25)

Like, currently or that I've ever. Okay. Oh, God. This is going to sound like I'm sidestepping the question, and I really promise I'm not.

Jesse David Fox (74:36)

Well, if you do, I will force.

BenDeLaCreme (74:37)

You to side step back to redirect me if you need to.

Jesse David Fox (74:41)

But. But.

BenDeLaCreme (74:44)

I don't feel like I set those for myself. And it is because, and this is why I am in art and life, a big believer in following my gut and not my gut serves me better than my brain does. And. And anytime I have tried to make plans about the future, I have found myself going the wrong direction and being unhappy and being. And not being great at my job. And like, my current biggest success is this holiday tour that was really, you know, how I think of how I live my life at its best and how I make art is a flashlight in the dark, where you can only see the steps right in front of you, but you can see enough to see whether you're on the path or not. But I can't see where the path is going. And anytime I try to be like I think it's over there, I'm stepping off, you know, and so all of the things that have been my most successful things are things where I just followed those steps where they led me. And. And I never would have predicted any of them. And. And I think about the. I think about the future a lot. I think about where I'm going to go next. I think about that. I want it to get bigger and better, but I also know that that kind of leaping into the unknown is what has served me.

Jesse David Fox (76:26)

I guess the. The only way is like, have you seen a thing? I've been in X room and I go, I wish my thing was in this room. And this is a very big room, whatever it is. Or like, you watch a movie and you're like, I wish my thing was this. I was in this movie. I mean, like, the easiest to be like, I want to do it at Radio City, which I imagine is the will be whatever amount of tours forward that's like, how these things go, which I think would be great. I think it's the ideal setting for the show. But do you. Have you done those?

BenDeLaCreme (76:56)

I mean, I think I'm just going to keep driving you crazy because my only goal that I ever really had, that I fulfilled very early and that this sounds like small potatoes, but it meant a lot to me was I wanted to do summer residencies in Provincetown. That's what I wanted to do. That was the thing I wanted most. I did it in the mid 2000s and did it for many years and was very happy and miss it a great deal. And then I was like great. And then sort of everything else tumbled out of it and now you know, I've written and directed for Carnegie Hall. I've played the Dolby, you know, I've, I've done some really cool stuff. I've performed all over the world and.

Jesse David Fox (77:42)

It'S okay.

BenDeLaCreme (77:43)

And that's it.

Jesse David Fox (77:45)

So the sphere, you jinx the sphere turn into a big ornament, I guess.

BenDeLaCreme (77:52)

Yeah. I mean that just may be the next logical thing that tumbles out.

Jesse David Fox (77:57)

Yeah, I accept.

BenDeLaCreme (77:59)

Do you accept this answer?

Jesse David Fox (78:01)

Yeah, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that is correct to answer. I mean I do think, think Radio City is the trajectory that I think makes most sense for the tour.

BenDeLaCreme (78:09)

I hear you. And, but, and also when you say that, it ignites nothing in me.

Jesse David Fox (78:15)

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BenDeLaCreme (78:42)

It is a nice room. I agree.

Jesse David Fox (78:44)

I guess the King's Theater is quite nice too.

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Jesse David Fox (80:54)

Now it's time for the final segment of the show. It's called the Laughing Round. It's like the lightning round because it's a comedy podcast. I call it the Laughing Round. Do you have a favorite joke? Joke? Like a street joke?

BenDeLaCreme (81:02)

Yes, I really like. Why did the non binary prospector head west?

Jesse David Fox (81:09)

Why?

BenDeLaCreme (81:10)

Why? Cuz there were golden they them hills.

Jesse David Fox (81:16)

You know, these jokes get updated and it's very exciting.

BenDeLaCreme (81:19)

And runner up is H. Oh. What does a non binary samurai do to their enemies? Yeah, I love these.

Jesse David Fox (81:33)

What?

BenDeLaCreme (81:34)

They slash them.

Jesse David Fox (81:37)

That one's like it's a poem. It's so beautifully written.

BenDeLaCreme (81:41)

It's pretty solid.

Jesse David Fox (81:42)

Is there a drag number from another drag queen that you saw and you wish you could steal? You wish that it was yours and it could have been a thing you've done?

BenDeLaCreme (81:50)

Ooh. I have seen a lot of work from both Varla Jean Merman and Dina Martina, who are both just absolutely brilliant. And it's mostly monologue work. They have done some of the. Ooh. Dina Martinez, Tina has a monologue that goes on way too long about earthquake clowns in which she describes in excruciating detail these clowns whose job it is to fly into places where earthquakes have leveled and entertain everyone, you know, and this just unbelievable bit about how they all fit in the tiny airplane and how long it takes them to come out and entertain the masses and how the first thing that happens is a little poodle with an umbrell dances around. But they want to be respectful, so there's no music, and it's just the sound of their toenails clicking on the. On the. The ruins of the city.

Jesse David Fox (82:47)

Those are great. That's really funny. Do you have a drag queen? Mount Rushmore?

BenDeLaCreme (82:53)

Oh, yeah. All right, let's see. I would go Varla Jean Merman. And I think I'm gonna go with ones that really, like, were early inspirations for me. So. Varla Jean Merman. Coco Peru. Oh, man, this is rough. Jackie Beat. And, you know, I think I have to go Lady Bunny. I think I have to go Lady Bunny.

Jesse David Fox (83:21)

Do you have an opinion of a thing that people think of as comedy that you think is not comedy?

BenDeLaCreme (83:26)

Yes, recognition. I somehow audiences at some point decided that if a performer says something they've heard before, then that that should cue laughter. And it is specifically a drag race problem. And just mentioning a familiar. A drag queen that you saw on TV is not a joke. Quoting another drag queen, especially if it wasn't a joke to begin with, is not a joke. And I don't understand, like, whatever genius trained audiences that that could. That that is what they should laugh at. I mean, I guess it's like money in the bank, but, man, it drives. Drives me crazy.

Jesse David Fox (84:12)

What is your skincare routine?

BenDeLaCreme (84:17)

I wash my face sometimes. I put on sunblock after I've been badly sunburned and. And. And. And genetics.

Jesse David Fox (84:30)

Great. What is the worst place you ever perform? Formed in.

BenDeLaCreme (84:36)

Ooh. There's been some doozies, but I will say, very early on in my career, when I was doing mostly clubs, there was a club in Chicago that. It was a great place to cut my teeth, but, you know, maybe it was this big. It was a dance floor was the space. There was no stage, and people would sort of stand around in a horseshoe shape. And there were maybe like, six people every night. But from the center of the dance floor, you had a direct view into the bathroom, which had no door on the stall. And one time, I remember doing a number and looking into the bathroom where a very intoxicated person had shit their pants and was sitting on the toilet, actually retrieving poop out of their underwear and shoving it into the toilet between their legs. And I was trying to do this very, like, glamorous number for the six people who could not see what I was looking at at the time. That's a pretty bad that's pretty bad.

Jesse David Fox (85:36)

Do you have a bit that never worked that you tried, amount of time that you'll go to your graveyard and you're like, I was right there or wrong.

BenDeLaCreme (85:42)

I did a show called Cosmos. It was one of my solo shows and it was based on the Neil DeGrasse Tyson Cosmos, but it was all. But it was all a riff on the drink. And so I had a talking martini glass named Neil deglasse Tyson. And the joke that never got a laugh that I was so proud of was he said some insult to me. And I said, hey, was that a crack? And. But then I bring it a step further and I go, I thought you were well tempered.

Jesse David Fox (86:15)

Well, truly, that's the. Yeah.

BenDeLaCreme (86:18)

Half the audience stand by that half.

Jesse David Fox (86:20)

The audience would have to go and Google what for sure.

BenDeLaCreme (86:23)

And I knew it. And I. The thing is that I stand by it. Despite the fact that not only it never got a laugh, I never expected it to. It was for me, literally everyone, the.

Jesse David Fox (86:32)

Entire audience goes like, I thought you were well tempered. Um, let's see if it's different than the worst venue, but do you have the best time you ever bombed?

BenDeLaCreme (86:42)

Different from the worst? No, I killed at the.

Jesse David Fox (86:45)

Yeah. So then what?

BenDeLaCreme (86:45)

The venue. All right, I will say that going to. Going to the uk, I really discovered that my specific sensibility is incredibly American. And the first time I ever did solo work in the uk, I was just not used to never getting laughs and I just performed to baffled faces. And I still can't put my finger on it exactly, but there's a different cadence, there's a different way to structure it. People just don't respond to the same stuff. And that was really shook me. And I have since learned how to play to a UK audience, but, man, that was pretty mortifying.

Jesse David Fox (87:37)

Thank you so much.

BenDeLaCreme (87:38)

Thank you.

Jesse David Fox (87:43)

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neil Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland, writer, review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse Dave David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.