Brett Goldstein Loves Making Fun of Shakespeare

Summary

Podcast Summary: Good One: A Podcast About Jokes
Episode: Brett Goldstein Loves Making Fun of Shakespeare
Release Date: June 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Good One: A Podcast About Jokes, Vulture Senior Editor Jesse David Fox welcomes comedian and actor Brett Goldstein. The conversation delves into Brett's first stand-up special, his role as Roy Kent in Ted Lasso, his creative process, experiences with award shows, and his broader views on comedy and drama.

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Stand-Up Special: The Second Best Night of Your Life

[03:44] Brett Goldstein:
Brett begins by discussing his stand-up special, emphasizing the importance of speaking his truth. He shares his perspective on musicals versus plays, humorously stating, “I love musicals, but I hate plays. Plays are boring and you all know it” ([04:34]). This extreme stance serves as a foundation for his comedic exploration of the subject.

[05:28] Jesse David Fox:
Jesse probes into the origins of this joke, asking Brett about the initial observation that led to this comedic angle.

[05:33] Brett Goldstein:
Brett explains that the joke evolved from combining various bits about plays being boring and his secret appreciation for musicals. He highlights the challenge of dissecting Shakespearean plays, criticizing their complexity and perceived lack of plot coherence.

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Crafting Comedy: Observations and Inspirations

[09:50] Jesse David Fox:
Jesse shifts the discussion to Brett's creative influences, particularly the Muppets and Sesame Street. He asks how these influences shape Brett's approach to comedy.

[35:22] Brett Goldstein:
Brett passionately describes The Muppet Christmas Carol as "possibly the greatest film ever made," praising its balance of humor and profound storytelling ([35:50]). He draws parallels between the interactive nature of puppetry and stand-up comedy, emphasizing the symbiotic relationship between performer and audience.

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Ted Lasso and the Character of Roy Kent

[14:01] Jesse David Fox:
Jesse delves into Brett's audition process for Ted Lasso, asking him to recount the day he sent his self-tape for the role of Roy Kent.

[14:16] Brett Goldstein:
Brett narrates the experience, highlighting the chemistry with the assistant who read off-camera and the gradual development of Roy Kent's distinctive gravelly voice ([15:15]). He reflects on his initial uncertainties and the subsequent affirmation through positive reception and critical acclaim.

[19:35] Brett Goldstein:
Discussing the Emmy win, Brett shares his disbelief and the pure-hearted experience of receiving the award during the COVID-19 pandemic, contrasting it with his later, more cynical views of the awards industry ([18:00]).

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Balancing Comedy and Drama

[34:23] Jesse David Fox:
Jesse addresses the thematic balance between comedy and drama in Brett's work, particularly in Ted Lasso and Shrinking.

[34:35] Brett Goldstein:
Brett asserts, “It has to be funny to be a comedy,” emphasizing that while drama can be as sad as desired, comedy inherently requires humor ([34:35]). He discusses how Shrinking intertwines dramatic narratives with comedic elements to explore complex emotional landscapes.

[33:50] Jesse David Fox:
Jesse probes further into how Shrinking maintains this balance, especially in light of debates surrounding the definition of comedy.

[34:41] Brett Goldstein:
Brett elaborates on the importance of integrating humor into dramatic storytelling to create nuanced and relatable characters ([34:55]).

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Experiences with Awards Shows

[17:24] Jesse David Fox:
Jesse inquires about Brett's experiences with award shows, notably winning an Emmy.

[17:27] Brett Goldstein:
Brett reflects on the innocence and magic of the first Emmy win, contrasting it with his later understanding of the industry's complexities and strategic campaigning ([19:35]). He fondly recalls the genuine surprise and joy of seeing his name announced on stage.

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Sesame Street and the Magic of Performance

[35:22] Jesse David Fox:
The conversation shifts to Brett's experience filming Sesame Street, which he considers the best day of his life.

[35:04] Brett Goldstein:
Brett recounts his nervousness upon arriving on set and his admiration for the reverence the cast and crew have for Sesame Street. He describes a memorable scene with Cookie Monster, highlighting the show's blend of humor and heartfelt moments ([37:01]).

[40:23] Brett Goldstein:
He draws a parallel between stand-up comedy and puppetry, emphasizing the importance of audience interaction and mutual investment to create magical performances ([40:21]).

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Jokes, Bombed Performances, and Comedy Insights

Laughing Round Highlights:

• Favorite Joke:
  [50:19] Brett Goldstein: Shares a self-deprecating joke about a misunderstanding at the airport involving "two pickets for Pittsburgh," only realizing it led to an inappropriate comment ([50:54]).

• Joke from Another Comedian:
  [51:08] Brett Goldstein: Appreciates Adam Sandler's bit from 100% Fresh about unexpected connections on a roller coaster, praising its simplicity and relatability ([51:08]).

• Best Bombed Performance:
  [56:35] Brett Goldstein: Describes a memorable bombing experience in Ibiza where, despite attempts to energize the audience, he faced complete silence. His candid recounting of the failed performance underscores the emotional challenges comedians face ([57:17]).

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Advice for Aspiring Actors, Comedians, and Writers

[54:32] Brett Goldstein:
Brett emphasizes the importance of creating original content, urging aspiring artists to "make stuff, make stuff, make stuff" regardless of obstacles. He reflects on his own journey of persistence, highlighting that meaningful success often comes after years of dedication and self-driven projects ([54:32]).

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Conclusion

Brett Goldstein's conversation with Jesse David Fox offers a deep dive into the life of a multifaceted comedian and actor. From dissecting Shakespearean narratives to navigating the highs and lows of the entertainment industry, Brett's insights highlight the intricate balance between humor and authenticity in his work. His experiences on Ted Lasso, Sesame Street, and the challenges of stand-up comedy provide a rich tapestry of lessons for both fans and aspiring artists alike.

Notable Quotes:

• “I love musicals, but I hate plays. Plays are boring and you all know it.” – Brett Goldstein ([04:34])
• “Drama without comedy is bad art.” – Brett Goldstein ([33:50])
• “If an audience gives you energy, they will see a better show. It is a two-way street.” – Brett Goldstein ([40:21])
• “Make stuff, make stuff, make stuff. You have no excuse.” – Brett Goldstein ([54:32])

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This episode of Good One masterfully captures Brett Goldstein's comedic philosophy, his journey in the entertainment world, and his unwavering dedication to his craft. Whether you're a fan of Ted Lasso or interested in the mechanics of stand-up comedy, Brett's stories and reflections offer both inspiration and entertainment.

Transcript

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[Brett Goldstein]

I don't like seeing stand up where it's like, you know me as Roy Kent, but in real life, I'm like this. I didn't want to do that and I never had to, which surprised me. I sort of thought this might be an issue, but it wasn't. I also think the thing I had on my side is absolute zero expectations from the audience, as in, I don't think anyone knew I'd done stand up. Perhaps they thought this is like an actor trying stand up. So the fact that I actually am, I hope, a competent stand up who's got lots and lots of years of experience, perhaps. I come out, they go, I don't know what I'm getting. And they go, oh, he appears to know what he's doing. We can relax.

[Jesse David Fox]

Welcome to Good One. I am your host, Jesse David Fox, senior writer at Vulture and author of comedy books. My guest today is Brett Goldstein. We talk about his first stand up special, the second Best Night of youf Life. Co creating and now appearing on Apple TV is shrinking and how for a time, he thought his voice choice for Roy Kent might ruin Ted Lasso. We also get a visit from some very small, very furry friends, which you'll have to wait to see what that means. So here is Brett Goldstein. I'm here with Brett Goldstein. Thank you for joining me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan. Oh, I'll stay. And of votes.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, that's Very kind of you to say. I'd like to start here. In the last week, can you think of the funniest thing that happened to you or the funniest thing you noticed?

[Brett Goldstein]

I keep notes in my phone. If something funny happens or something that may become a bit looking at it, one of them. Absolutely. Can't talk about a producer that I have been working with. Do I say that? Someone I've been working with kept saying to me, you really remind. I like you so much. You really remind me of someone. Been saying that for days and then sent me a text saying, I remember who you remind me of. I had a Dalmatian and it killed itself, but it was always smiling and it really reminded me of you. And I was like, thank you for this compliment about a dog that killed itself. That's very sweet. And then she doubled down the next day and sent me a picture of a quite mad looking dog.

[Jesse David Fox]

Does it look like you?

[Brett Goldstein]

I hope not. And I can't work out if she was roasting me, if she meant it. I don't know where, what. Cause at first I was like, maybe this is misguided, but the doubling down and with the terrible picture, I was like, does this person hate me?

[Jesse David Fox]

It feels very profound for how casually.

[Brett Goldstein]

She brought it up. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So to. To talk about sort of your process of how an observation like that gets into a joke, I want to discuss one of my favorite jokes from your first special, the second best night of your life, which is a joke, which is plays versus musicals.

[Brett Goldstein]

Because I do actually think it's important to speak your truth. And I don't want to pretend I'm something I'm not anymore. So I'm just going to say it then. It's been said, okay? I love musicals, all right? I love musicals, but I hate plays. Plays are boring and you all know it. Once you've enjoyed a musical, very difficult to get back to a play. Once you've experienced the majesty of defying gravity, very difficult to get anything out of. To be or not to be. You're talking plays are boring.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you talk? Where did that joke start? What was the initial observation or kernel that got you there?

[Brett Goldstein]

You know, sometimes it's fun in stand up to take an extreme stance that you half mean. And I half mean that I think all plays are fucking boring. And I think there is. So then it was like a load of stuff about plays being boring and then how I secretly do like musicals and I had much. I mean, it's still a long bit in the special, but it was longer. I had a longer bit about going to see Uncle Vanya and how it was four hours and I'm really angry about it. And then. And it's like. And I'm like. And by the way, I understood the play. It was about a man thinking he might have wasted his life. I feel you, Vanya. So there was that sort of stuff at plays. And then I went to see my friend in Romeo and Juliet, and I had a different bit about that, about how, like, that's kind of the greatest sacrifice I've ever made for a friend. And. And then there is that thing about, like, people, the way people laugh at Shakespeare plays where you're like, this isn't funny, you fucking liars.

[Jesse David Fox]

So it.

[Brett Goldstein]

So it's a combination. It was all these bits that were.

[Jesse David Fox]

Just sort of things that kept on being in your head.

[Brett Goldstein]

And then you and I may have done this separately. I did the Roman Juliet bit separately, and I did the Vanya bit separately. And then it all started to be like, oh, that actually goes with this. And that goes with this. But then ultimately being like, musicals are better than plays because stuff happens. I went to see Romeo and Juliet. It is an exact rip off of west side Story. I don't like the idea of punching down. I try not to punch down, but I like that I'm like, furiously taking down Shakespeare. Like, this can. That's funny to me, that this is who I'm fucking giving it to. And also about time. It's terrible. It's a terrible writer. The plots are terrible, all of them stupid. This one has to dress up as this one. Who has to dress up as this one and pretend to be sexually assaulted to get someone Ridiculous. Why is this man revered?

[Jesse David Fox]

How much Shakespeare have you consumed in your life in.

[Brett Goldstein]

More than enough. More than enough.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think this will be the first of many questions. Was like, is this because you're British? I have no sense of like in, like.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's the thing. It's this. There's always Shakespeare on. I'm like, haven't we seen enough? Why is someone else doing Hamlet? Why the fuck is Hamlet on again? What's going on? No one got anything new to say? Hamlet again. It was boring the first time. Someone's like, I haven't done my Hamlet. I don't need to see it. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think my favorite is the Hamlet or Macbeth. Doesn't matter which. Which you sort of. And you'll do that a few times. You'll do like a little sort of understated little repeat.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

The other thing I thought about this joke and it. I think it thematically connects to things you've talked about. Is it. Is the. The tension between art, the art is doing it, versus the art is for the consumption of it. Like, how much is. How much are you making things for? To entertain people or for people to watch? Or how much are you. But you like making things.

[Brett Goldstein]

See anyone doing Hamlet?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It's like, is it for them to try out different types of acting? Or is it.

[Brett Goldstein]

Why do we have to suffer for it? You could go into your Hamlet. I'm not. Just don't sell tickets.

[Jesse David Fox]

But if someone offered you to do.

[Brett Goldstein]

Hamlet, I don't think I'd do it.

[Jesse David Fox]

So that's where you draw the line with the place.

[Brett Goldstein]

I think I would. Oh, yeah. So that's the extra bit that came from doing the special, was that I also know I'll do a play. And as much as the reality is, of course, I've seen a good play, maybe one. Yeah. I've seen who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And it was fucking brilliant. Yeah, I know good plays exist. And I also have done plays years ago and found them very fun to do. So I was like, if I'm putting this in a special, one day I'll do a play and this clip will be used against me. So I need to put a disclaimer, a cheeky disclaimer in which I did.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's also like a good advertisement for Caspianar play.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Hey, I'm open to plays. You just named Virginia Woolf. I think people will be like, oh, I could see him being. I imagine one of the most difficult things to wrap your head around is the audience perception of you now and your status and your sort of Persona. So, you know, you did your last Edinburgh show, I think, in 2018, and you had one career in England. And then Covid happens, and then Ted Lasso happens, and you're in the States doing standup, and a lot of the audience's relationship to you is so different than it was when you started. So I want to talk a little bit about how you've grown into that transition to get a sense of how it's. How you've had to address that or how what you've learned from it. But let's back up a little bit because I want to talk about where you were in 2018 and to really capture what Ted Lasso was. You know, I read and listened to interviews you did in 2018, 2019, and I describe your energy as, like, acceptance, like you've been through the wringer of development hell and you've like had projects and they sort of. I think in the special you said they were kicked down a well. So pre last though, can you talk about thinking a big break just wasn't going to happen, but that was okay. Like, was there a specific moment of realization of like, okay, well, this is my career?

[Brett Goldstein]

I think there was. There really was. I've talked about like, as in. It's sort of easy to say now, but I did sort of genuinely find like spiritual acceptance and it changed everything because I was always working. I always wanted to work, I always wanted to make stuff. And I was just at a very smaller level, you know, and I was small parts in TV shows and occasionally irregular, but in England that's like six episodes, you know, I did. I was always working, I was always doing a little part in something and I was writing for other people and I script edited other people's shows and I. But everything that was like the thing that was my thing didn't happen and would get kicked down a well and you know, all of those things. And then I did make a film, Superbog, which I'm very, very, very proud of. But it gotten, you know, it was on in three cinemas and it didn't change anything, I don't think. And I'm very grateful that people like it who've seen it. But that's probably the same 50 people who saw me do stand up. And I came into pilot season and I did an HBO pilot that didn't get picked up. And I came back the next year and I did pilot with Bill Lawrence and that didn't get picked up, but both of them were really good. And then I came back, I believe it was the next year for pilot season and all the pilots I read was shit, really shit. And I say that with love. They're all on the current absolute dog shit. I don't think any of them are there. And I remember being like, I'm here to audition for stuff and I don't even want to. This is all shit. And I didn't go for lots of them. Then I went in for one audition because I'd been there too long. I thought I better go to something. And I remember leaving the room wanting to say to the people, by the way, I really don't want to be in this. I think it would be the worst seven years of my life if it's happened. Please don't. Please don't ask me. But I was there and I was staying with My friends in Highland park with lovely, lovely people, Dana and Dan. And I was there and I was still right. I was helping someone else with the script and. And I sort of had this moment. I was like, you know what? I'm not a baby anymore. I think the window is passed. Whatever that window may have been for a sort of Brett Goldstein show or film or whatever. The thing is, I think it's gone. And. But I work all the time. I make things and I make my own stuff and I write my own things. And I love the making of Truly. I love making. I love making short films. I love the creative act. I fucking love it. It feels. Makes me feel connected to the universe and give me purpose and makes me happy. And I'm still doing that. I'm doing it at a very low level that 50 people see. Sure. But you stand up every night and I make stuff and I help people with their scripts. If this is my life, pretty fucking sweet life, I make enough money to pay my bills and I wear black T shirts and I go to the cinema. I don't spend a lot of money. I don't need. You know, I always make enough. Yeah. And if this is it, I'm a very lucky man. And I genuinely sort of let go because I was like, I don't want to fight for this shit pilot. I'm happy making good stuff at a low level, small stuff.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

And then three weeks later, Bill Lawrence calls, says, do you want to come work on Ted Lasso? And my show sound mate Scott Greenet, which had been in development for seven years. So then everything.

[Jesse David Fox]

Then everything happened. Let's talk a little bit about Ted Lasso. You've told the story about getting the part of Roy Kent a million times. I've heard you tell it a million times. I can imagine you've told it 2 million times. No, I'll summarize it. You're a writer on the show, the character of Roy Kent existed. You're like, this guy's me. I should self. I should self tape an audition, send it to Bill, say, hey, if you don't like this, we'll never talk about it again.

[Brett Goldstein]

This is good. This is.

[Jesse David Fox]

But because you have this story, can you take me to the day of the self tape? Like the day you were doing it? Can you just talk about what that day was like, where you're preparing to say the scenes? What scenes did you pick? How did you approach it?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I can tell you. I went to my manager at Mosaic. I went to his office. They have like, A little sort of white room where they have a camera and you set up and you do self tapes with a. With a. Someone that's an assistant in their office. And I went there and what's funny about it is I read with this assistant who was a, I believe, Norwegian man. So I had a Norwegian man reading in for Kale off camera. Yeah, me and this Norwegian man really had some chemistry, I guess. Yeah. And I think I did it a few. You know, I worked very hard in it. Didn't. You know, I did a. Did a while. Kept this poor Norwegian man at work a long time and then. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you have the voice? Like, did you find the voice over the course of the day?

[Brett Goldstein]

I think the voice, I. I think it wasn't as extreme as it became or as gravelly as it was, but it was definitely on its way there.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's interesting you mentioned the car park scene or the parking lot scene, as we would call.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, yeah, sorry.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's fine. I knew what you meant because I rewatched the show and that scene, you go, that's it?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Well done. I'm sorry. I'm an idiot. I was also an idiot yesterday, so it's okay. Good luck, Hayley. Yeah, well, that's what I felt it in the. Right. That's the scene that was the one.

[Jesse David Fox]

For me where you're like, oh, he's not going to be just a color in the palette of the background. Like he's a driver of. More like he will take up space in the show comedically, specifically you in that part because you're doing Ted and you have levels of that performance.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thanks, man. No problem. That's nice. When you really get me.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, okay.

[Brett Goldstein]

Ready?

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm about to get. You know. Can you remember a moment when you get the part? Can you remember a moment where you're shooting it where you felt affirmed that you were the right for the part or even a moment where you felt you weren't? And then.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, a lot of the time I felt was. Truthfully, I was. It wasn't until season one came out, I really wasn't sure. And I don't think anyone would because I was. It's a big swing. Like, I've got this shoulders back fucking stance. He's got a voice like it's not nothing. Yeah, I'm taking some big swings and I don't think everyone was sure about it at all. I think there was a lot of doubt. And so I had the fear. I remember me and Hannah Waddingham speaking like a Few days before it came out going like, I assumed the reviews would be like that. There's one very bad person in this show. There's one person really ruining this show, but the rest of it's great. So thank God it was well received because I genuinely wasn't sure. It wasn't like, yeah, I knew, I knew, I knew. Like I felt. I don't know. It's weird because you forget I forget that bit because by season two we had the feeling that people liked it and then it was much more. I think everyone was more confident season two, but season one, you don't know what the fuck you did you win.

[Jesse David Fox]

An Emmy before you shot season two?

[Brett Goldstein]

I can't remember. Maybe we're mid filming. I don't know the answer to that. That's a great question, though. I wish I did.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, you've said in interviews, different versions of you don't like small talk. And you got it to stand up to avoid dinner parties. And then you're in a situation where you're nominated and winning awards.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And essentially the largest, highest stakes dinner parties in Hollywood having to go these things like, how are the Emmys for you? That.

[Brett Goldstein]

Do you remember the Emmys? Oh, yeah, I remember very well. Well, I remember that the first one was really quite pure. And I say that sort of with love. That's my catchphrase today. I say this with love as in, there is definitely an argument. Having now experienced much more of it. There is a industry, the awards industry and there is, it's months of. I, I, I now understand much more the machine of it and the FYC events and the campaigning and the like, there's a lot of stuff and it takes, it makes a lot of noise and it takes up a lot of space and you can be cynical about it for sure. But the season one Emmys, we were like naive innocence in a magical woodland. Like we didn't. There was nothing cynical about those Emmys. In a way that was lovely when I think back, like just a real, like, where are we? And also it was still Covid, so it was smaller. So it was a bit less, a bit more manageable. Maybe we're only allowed 200 people in the room or something. And just us being a gang of innocent. Like we just didn't know this. There was no, I don't know, there was no agenda because I think we came into it pure hearted, like, we're not going to win. We're nobodies. We're just little people from England and this sort of Magical. It felt really magical in a way that probably now, I don't necessarily think we could have that experience again because you're much more aware of the machines. You know what I mean?

[Jesse David Fox]

So you win and then you win.

[Brett Goldstein]

And it was a mate. Because I didn't truly didn't expect to win. No joke. Not being humble. Hadn't someone had said to me, write something because you just should. But I didn't believe it was a thing. And when they said my name, I didn't understand it. And everyone stood up around me, and then I saw my name on the screen, I was like, oh, fuck.

[Jesse David Fox]

I guess I gotta go walk to.

[Brett Goldstein]

You've gotta do this thing now, right?

[Jesse David Fox]

I imagine then after that you were less nervous that you were doing a bad job. Can you think of a day on set where you're like, this is special. This shooting this show. Doing this character right now is a special day?

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, yeah. Loads of them. Loads and loads of them. I mean, I always like. I hate to, like, pick people because I really, really love everyone, but anytime I had a scene with Phil, with Jamie Tartt, was. Was hard because we would laugh, really laugh. Really ruined all the time. Very bad together. But fine. But I loved, particularly season two, me and Keeley. I loved all the stuff with us and with Phoebe. And there was something special about when me and Juno did the Roy Keely stuff because we spent a lot of time in her house, which was separate from the set. So it always felt like a kind of special island. And there was something really. She's so brilliant and so open, and it felt sort of genuinely intimate and kind of. I don't know. And there was one. The episode. I really love the episode. The moment when he's made a buff for her in season two. And it's the. Phoebe Walsh wrote that episode, and I think in the script, the words are the same as they were in the script. But I think he just. It was like she. He's drawn her a buff. But then Juno was like, can we have a minute on our own? And we kind of worked out this routine of undressing her in a way that kept everything covered. But he's undressing her, and as he's undressing her, he's saying, your feet are disgusting, in a very romantic way. And I really loved that scene. I think it's very special. And it felt very, like, magical. It was a great bit of writing from Phoebe, and us finding it together was also lovely. I just like that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. What is interesting is before Ted Lasso. A thing would happen where you might say in an interview that you have anger and people would be surprised. They'd be like, what you. And then sort of an opposite thing happens where Ted Lasso, where people are surprised that you're not constantly being angry. Considering that. What. What is it then doing stand up now that you have so much for your audience? Who knows you from this character?

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know what people were expecting. I was surprised that people bought tickets to my stand up show. Not having never seen my stand up. I don't like seeing stand up where it's like, you know me as Roy Kent, but in real life, I'm like this. I didn't want to do that and I never had to. Yeah. Which surprised me. I sort of thought this might be an issue, but it wasn't. I also think the thing I had on my side is absolute zero expectations from the audience. As in, I don't think anyone knew I'd done stand up. Perhaps they thought this is like an actor trying stand up. So the fact that I actually am, I hope, a competent stand up who's got lots and lots of years of experience, perhaps. I come out, they go, I don't want. I'm getting. And they go, oh, he appears to know what he's doing. Yeah, yeah, we can relax. You know me. Yeah, I guess.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I imagine the opener was really. The opening was very important to be like, oh, this is like a regular.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, this is like, oh, this is like stand up. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you have any bad experiences or any bad shows where people called out for you to do it, to do the voice?

[Brett Goldstein]

I occasionally would have people do the chant and I had a sort of joke to shut that down. And it. That was a. That was a sort of complicated thing as well, where you realize I always found it a bummer. But then I'd be like, that's. They don't know. They think they're excited. Like.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

So it was sort of finding the balance of letting them have that moment without making it. Without it being. Becoming too much of a, you know.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. You don't want them to feel bad for liking.

[Brett Goldstein]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We want to be like, let's go. What are we doing here? You can.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And I do think it helps you say the word Ted Lasso twice or so in the special.

[Brett Goldstein]

And then I realized I did realize I needed to say it because people. Because then they clap and it's got in. Let's dance.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, he knows.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah, he knows. He's done he's in Ted Lasso. Like it definitely. Mo Welch, my opener, she said to me, she was like, they're waiting for it. Like you need to acknowledge it because they want to hear at least you know it's happened. Whereas I wanted to be pure. Pure. It's just pure stand up. But actually let them have their fucking minute, you know what I mean?

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm not going to ask you about ted Lasso Season 4 because anytime people do, you're dodgy as hell about it. But I spoke to Jason Segel recently and asked him about the potential of fourth season of shrinking. Despite in the past you all talked about how Bill had a season three only planned for three seasons and he was affable and he's like, yeah, we'll probably do a fourth season. You didn't set out to do four seasons of either of these shows, but.

[Brett Goldstein]

How do you come up with the fourth?

[Jesse David Fox]

Or how do you come up with it? Or how do you sort of get motivated to do it when it's not necessarily like the art you set out to do, but art you are.

[Brett Goldstein]

I think it's to do with the people and the characters and the actors and things are different. You have the plan, but then this world starts to build in front of you and you fall in love with things you didn't know you'd fall in love with. And I don't want to sound woo woo, but I do mean this. You sort of have to stay open to the signs and things. You always have a plan, but the plan will change because someone is different and someone what everyone brings. And so yes, we've stuck to that plan, but there's so many new wonderful things within it that it's like, oh, we could like, I think, I don't know, it's the world you've. Do you want to hang out in that world anymore? And if so, it's only worth doing if you're going to do it as well as you've done as well, if not better. Yeah, but unless everyone. I don't know how to. I don't know how to put it other than. All I can say is me and Bill were talking the other day, we were like. And then he said something and it was like, oh, that's an. That's exciting.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Like when the idea is there, if you remain open to it and the idea comes, you're like, oh, that's a good one. Then suddenly we're like, oh, fuck, maybe there is more.

[Jesse David Fox]

Let's talk a little bit about shrinking. How's working with Jason Sudeikis and Jason Segel different.

[Brett Goldstein]

I mean, it's a ridiculous question. They're two different human beings, but their.

[Jesse David Fox]

First name is the same.

[Brett Goldstein]

Their first name is the same. And they're both very, very talented and they're different in the way that people are different, but they're both excellent Jasons.

[Jesse David Fox]

This season you play Lewis, the character that killed Jason Segel's wife in the car accident. Can you walk me through coming up with that storyline and then thinking of the character that would fit that storyline and then the decision to have you play it.

[Brett Goldstein]

So the idea was it had always been this three, three season plan. Season one, grief, Season two, forgiveness. And the thing that I know Bill likes and I love to do is is take some. Make something really hard. As in, look, it does it in Ted. Like you start with Roy Kent, you sort of hate. He seems like a dick. And then you have to win him.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Win the. Win him over. Win. Get the audience to invest in him. And Jamie Tartt, perfect example of that. That's like a version of it. But then we're shrinking. It was this thing of. The idea of forgiveness is very simple. We built this world. Season two is always more fun to write than season one, I think. And I've been very, very, very lucky to have been that position. But it's fun season two because you've now done the world building. You've got your characters. You got. You like them all. You like these actors. Now what do we do with them? Here's the idea of forgiveness. What's the hardest experiment we can place into this world? And it is easy to say forgive people. It's good to forgive people. What about a man who killed your wife? Daddy, you should go, I know you must hate me, but if you're good, I would really like, get the out of here. Get out of here. Get the out of here. That's now interesting and not straightforward and genuinely murky in that if by the end of 12 episodes Jimmy says, I do not forgive you, we as audience go, okay, we still love Jimmy and it doesn't mean he's wrong. That's interesting. That gives you. Then there's drive, then there's meat, and then everything else, and then you're going, okay, so everyone else has got something that needs forgiving, whether it's themselves or whatever. But that as a kind of experiment to drop into this world is very exciting and rich, I think dramatically. So that was the start. Was this the second part of this question?

[Jesse David Fox]

Who then? Who is this person. And then why is this person you?

[Brett Goldstein]

So then the thing that I think is again to do with the hate and stuff is you start with how people think of other people. Like, it's very easy to make people two dimensional. And so he's the drunk driver. And when Alice talks about him when she writes her letter, it's like, you, drunk driver. And that minimizes him as a person to, you know, drunk driver. You make all kinds of associations with that word, with those words and you make it. It's a villain. Here's this villain drunk driver. He killed your wife and mother. And then as the thing progresses and you see more and more details of the thing, you go, he was drunk, he was drunk. We were very like clear on it wasn't a mistake. It wasn't. As in, of course it was a mistake, but as in he wasn't. Miss.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Arrested or, you know, he was drunk and. But he, when we reveal in the flashback, he was slightly over the limit in the same way that I'm sure lots of people have gone, we can drive home, we're just around the corner. So it was this kind of. The more details you give and the more you spend time with him, the less this two dimensional villain you have, the more it's like this is just a guy and this horrific thing happened and it was a terrible mistake and he has to live with this somehow for the rest of his life. But it then is hard to. You realize he's lost as much as Jimmy's lost and it is his fault. So I like the sort of complication of. That's also like my biggest fear, I think is accidentally killing someone. I'm happy to go for it, but if I accidentally. That would be, you know, I think it's. And I've read so much stuff of people who've done this and firsthand accounts and all that. And it's truly. I have nothing but empathy or sympathy, whichever word is correct for that. Empathy, Empathy, like as in it's just awful. And I don't know how you live after it, but that was the kind of idea of like taking this person and what does he. How do you continue? And really Jimmy we've seen, has been helped by community. And then this guy has no community and partly self imposed exile, you know.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then so the conversation of you playing it, was it apprehension? I know that there's different opinions about. This is not a Telasso situation.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh no, this was not. So I was not going to play it. And it was Jason's idea, and Bill did not want me to play it. And he's been open about that and very sweet about it. He did not see it, but Jason Siegel, it was his idea, called us into his trailer and he said, why isn't Brett doing this? And I wasn't sure either, because it's a tough, you know, it's a different, very sort of, I don't know, vulnerable, emotional part. And. But Jason was like, you're the guy. And Bill thought about it. And then Bill sent me a very sweet text where he said, I believe in you as an artist, and if you think you can do this, I will back you and support you. And I said, thank you, Bill. That means a lot. And he said, but this entire season rests on his character, and if you fuck it up, you kill shrinking. And I said, okay, thanks.

[Jesse David Fox]

When I was talking to Jason, he said maybe his best day ever on a set was shooting the final episode of Shrinking Season two. And specifically the Thanksgiving scene where Harrison Ford gives a speech about accepting his Parkinson's and being grateful for the people around him. What was that scene like for you, writing and shooting and watching it? Especially knowing that Harrison's character having Parkinson was partly based on your own father.

[Brett Goldstein]

What was amazing is how many times he did it. You know, you have. He filmed that from every angle. And he was crying. Every angle. In the back of his head, he was still crying. You know, it was really wild and amazing and. And then he's funny and just always. So at the end of the day, I sort of hugged him. I said, that was amazing. He's like, there's nothing. And then he's off, and you're like, everyone's dead. That was really something. And there was so many people in that scene. It was the opposite of the episode. You know, there's a load of the. Liz's kids. And it was like, yeah, he was doing that. It was really something.

[Jesse David Fox]

You once said that drama without comedy is bad art.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes. I stand by it.

[Jesse David Fox]

The story goes laser boring.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, it's.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's. Thematically. That's why I'm asking. The story. The story of shrinking goes sort of. You and Bill had parallel ideas, and your idea was more dramatic and Bill's idea was more comedic. And then Jason sort of figured it. You guys, with Jason merged it, especially in a moment where there are debates around. Especially around award shows, of what constitutes a comedy. How dramatic can a comedy be? How funny does it need? How funny does a show need to be a comedy? What do you think?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, has to be Funny has to have jokes and be really funny. It can be as sad as you want, but it's got to have jokes and be funny. Doesn't have to have jokes. It's got to be funny. I think it's got to be funny, right, to be a comedy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

And to be a drama, it just has to be an hour.

[Jesse David Fox]

So one thing that ties Ted Lasso shrinking in your special together is the Muppets and more specifically, Sesame Street.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

So for this question, we have guests.

[Brett Goldstein]

What? Hello, mate. Hello, mate. Ah. What? Are these yours?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes, in a way.

[Brett Goldstein]

What's this one?

[Jesse David Fox]

You put a cookie in its mouth.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay. That's really great. That's great.

[Jesse David Fox]

For doing stand up for 17 years. You seem really deliberate about having only one piece of solo comedy available while you're sort of on Ted Lasso and your ascent, which is you doing the entirety of the Muppet Christmas Carol in six minutes for charity. What was it about the Muppets that influence how you think about comedy in your art? Is there any specific scene or moment you remember watching a Muppets movie and go like, this? Expands my mind. This is the sort of energy I want to put out into the world.

[Brett Goldstein]

Muppy Christmas Carol is truly possibly the greatest film ever made. And I don't say that. I say that with love.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Because it's the greatest story ever told. The Christmas Carol. And then the Muppet version of it, you get Muppet with Muppets, but they don't fuck around either. Like, it's dark. It's truly dark. Michael Caine is in a. In a Holocaust drama. He's playing it like, as he should. And there's jokes, jokes, jokes. But it's very, very moving and. And a profound story that takes the bits that it should take seriously, seriously while still being magical and has so many, like, little running jokes. And I just think it's magnificent and it's. And also the kind of craft of it, like when you see, like the behind the scenes, it's fantastic.

[Jesse David Fox]

So in the special, you. You talk about going to film Sesame street and it being the best day of your life.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you walk me through that day in the non stand up version?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, sure. I mean, you turn up at Sesame Street. I remember being nervous like, oh, shit, what if. What if they're all dicks? Like, this will be so bad. This is probably. This will ruin my life. What if they're dick? Like, what if it's like just people shouting each other, get elbow down, you know? I mean, but they. One of the Reasons I loved it so much is the reverence that the people making it have for it is the same reverence that someone who loves it has for it. And still on season, whenever they were on 350, that this isn't the original performance, but they are trying to give it the same sense of heart and soul. And you see that. And when you go onto the set, they sort of hold you back. You don't go into the set. They do your makeup or whatever. And then they took me into the. Oh, and on your door, your dressing room, they have Sesame street type I seen on the door, which you get to keep. And then you go in the set and there's like, a box of tissues. Because most people burst into tears. And they're so used to it. Yeah. And you go in and it's like, fucking Sesame Street. And you're like, I can't believe this. And. And then I did, like, the first scene with Cookie Monster, which is why he's my. And he was so funny. Like, I really pissed myself. I was shocked how funny Cookie Monster was. And, like. And it was so. It was like, not unlike Ted Lasso. It was funny that working with Elmo and Grover and they would, you know. Seriously, in the script, I get tied up in a skipping rope. And there was a discussion between Elmo and Grover. Like, how is this happening? Like, it can't be stupid. Like, we have to earn this moment and, like, choreographing it together. Like, they took it so seriously with love.

[Jesse David Fox]

I do not think he knows how.

[Brett Goldstein]

To play this game either. I know how to jump.

[Jesse David Fox]

Right.

[Brett Goldstein]

You know what I mean? It wasn't. No one was going. It doesn't matter. Like, they were like, this has to logically make sense that he's gonna get stuck in this skimming rope and just Brilliant. Everyone's brilliant. And there is something. I don't know what it is, and I'm sure some people do not feel this way, but there is. I think it's to do with the leap. I think what makes it so lovely, and it's similar to how I feel about stand up, is that stand up, you can't do on your own. You do it on your own, but you're. You have to do it with an audience. You can't rehearse it. You can't practice it. You can only do it with an audience. And it is an active thing with an audience. The audience can't sit there doing nothing. The audience have to give love to get love. Truly, I think that, like, if an audience sits with their arms folded and goes, fucking impress me. They are going to see a less good gig. They are. Because you've got nothing to surf on. If an audience gives you energy, they will see a better show. So it is a two way street. And we're Muppets and puppets. There is a thing of like, here is this thing. We both know that it is a thing on my hands. But if you invest, I will invest and this magical.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thing will happen.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you. When you're talking to them, did you.

[Brett Goldstein]

Look in the eyes of 100 immediately, I'm a gunner. I made it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it is. I meant Kermit. You just. You look at. Yeah. There's a person's hand and you do not see the person.

[Brett Goldstein]

And I like that. Jim Henson didn't pretend otherwise. Like you see him with a kid. He's got coat of frog. And then he goes, I'm going to win. And he puts it in the box in front of the kid and takes his hand out and it doesn't matter because he's still magic. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Then talk me through. You have this experience to then go on stage and it builds to the Cookie Monster joke.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's a few bits that became one bit. And why the show is called Second Best Night of youf Life is because of Sesame Street. Because I have the joke. Sesame street was the best day of my life. But now I have to continue living. So everything's. And I wanted to call myself second person life. So it's like, I want you to have a really good time, but I still want you to get to me. Have a better night.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

In your future. The Cookie Monster part of it came out of whenever I did the Questions in the box. I think every time someone would ask, who is your favorite Muppet? And so I improvised that a few times. Then it's like, this is. This is a bit. This should be in it.

[Jesse David Fox]

All right, that's the end of the Muppet section.

[Brett Goldstein]

Can you say goodbye to the goodbye Muppets? It's really. I love you.

[Jesse David Fox]

So I was trying to think about how this special fits into your career as a whole. And, you know, besides the lasso and shrinking, you've written a number of movies and a few TV shows. And I know David lynch is your. Is a big influence. Even less about directly like, oh, I want to make things in a style. But the idea of how he approached his work and thought about his career in so much as we know what it means for something to be Lynchian. Do you Have a sense of what Constinian means.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, dear. What is Gonstinian? I would like it to be something that's at least attempting to be made with love. But. And it's probably got some sex in it.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is my theory. Having consumed a lot of your work in a row as a sort of writer, so thinking of sort of Stand up Ted Lasso, Shrinking, Superbob, all of you. The movie you co wrote that's coming out later this year about two friends who take a test that says they are supposedly soulmates.

[Brett Goldstein]

No, they're not soulmates.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh. It says they're not soulmates, but they.

[Brett Goldstein]

Still love each other.

[Jesse David Fox]

But then you also have the AMC show Soulmates, which also people take the soulmate test. And then also you're shooting Office Romance, which is a rom com you're shooting with Jennifer Lopez. The most recurring theme I see is the question of what is love and what does it mean to be able to be loved?

[Brett Goldstein]

God damn it. You should write a drama book that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is that true? How does that make you feel?

[Brett Goldstein]

I think that is true. I think everything I write about is really what is left. And there are always things about love. That's all. Because that's all. That's interesting, isn't it?

[Jesse David Fox]

Why to you?

[Brett Goldstein]

Because why is. Why is. Well, it's sort of the connection between people. That's what's interesting. It's the relationship people have with each other. And that's when I lock into. I once saw it like fucking. I think it was like BuzzFeed and it was like sitcom tropes. We are sick of 10 and like number one was will they, won't they? And I was like hard disagree. That is the stupidest thing I've ever read. I was like, will they, won't they? Is the best thing ever and will always be. And it is why you care about stuff. If you take that out. Like Frasier is an amazing sitcom. You're telling me you want to take out Niles and Daphne? The thing that makes you come back every week, Will they, won't they? You want to take out fucking Ross and Rachel. Will they, won't they? That's all we care about. Yeah. The rest of it's fun. But we. We're in Cheers. We're in because. Well, they. Won't they? Sam and Diane, like, that's the thing that draws us in. It's when you're hooked. Is the. Is the love bit.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I guess it's also. Speaking of connection, love is the most direct. Like connection can be A somewhat abstract idea. And love is the easiest way of translating, like, ideas of connection to an audience.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Where they understand love between, like, you know, a couple. So you're like. But ultimately all your ideas of, like, how humans interact can go into that.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah. You get it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. So as an actor, this is what I was thinking, sort of. Yeah. You excel at playing men who are at conflict between a difficulty communicating and their desire to be understood.

[Brett Goldstein]

God. So good. That's me. Does that feel like you? Yeah. Where does that come.

[Jesse David Fox]

Where does that come from?

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know. Man. Childhood.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you feel like it's a man thing? Do you feel like it's a. I.

[Brett Goldstein]

Think it's a man thing, but I think it's. I think it's certainly British to be. To keep everything bottled up and all of that. I think you, you, you are saying something that feels very truthful. This idea of, don't look at me, I don't want to be seen. But also, why aren't you understanding? Oh, because I didn't explain any of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

But I think that's probably true of men and women and everyone. I think, I think we're. I can't speak for everyone, can I? But I think that's definitely something I've experienced when you go like, well, obviously I think this and that and the other person's like, you've never expressed any of that. I was supposed to read. Just read that from your selling phase. Yes. Yes, you are.

[Jesse David Fox]

You don't have to give it away, but can you share the sort of influences and touchstones that you're thinking about going into office romance?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes, I can, I can tell you exactly what. What the aim of office romance is. It's like an old school, Nora Ephron type romantic comedy with hard R jokes. That's the aim of it. It should look and feel that sort of lovely old school, proper big rom com, but with slightly ruder jokes. That's it. The same heart, the same.

[Jesse David Fox]

And you're like, who is a rom com actress? It's Jennifer Lopez. And then choose to play the part of Jennifer Lopez. You're like, what?

[Brett Goldstein]

That's Jennifer Lopez. That's exactly what happened. And she's amazing. She is one of the great comic actors. She's just brilliant.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, as we spoke about before, the moment before Ted Lasso accepting, you're just gonna be a guy who's working. You're not gonna have the Brett Goldstein show.

[Brett Goldstein]

But that's okay. You're working.

[Jesse David Fox]

You like to work. You're doing. And then cut to now and seemingly you're really close to the sort of career where you get to do the things you want to do. No one's, especially now is instant green light. But you get to make the things you want to make right now. How are you thinking about it? How does it feel?

[Brett Goldstein]

Amazing. I'm so grateful. So grateful. Can't believe it. Every single day. Every single day. I can't believe, can't believe I get to do this. Have the feeling of probably will end all tomorrow. But again, it's sort of a joke and kind of not a joke. I did Sesame street. So it doesn't matter, like if I get shot in the head later. I had a fucking great run. I did Sesame Street. That is much more than I expected. You know me. Yeah. And, and I'm so grateful. I, and I really am doing the things, things that I wanted to do. It's very, very amazing. And I'm.

[Jesse David Fox]

How do you sleep?

[Brett Goldstein]

Like, I don't sleep. That is the, the, the downside is I don't sleep. I truly sleep four hours max. I sleep very badly, but my brain's on fire. It's absolutely on fire.

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[Brett Goldstein]

Hey there. This is Peter Kafka, the host of Channels. And this week I'm talking to Scott.

[Jesse David Fox]

Frank, the writer and director who moved.

[Brett Goldstein]

From movies to Netflix, which is where you can see Department Q, his newest hit. And we talked about how no one knows what the future of Hollywood is going to be like, except that it won't be like the past.

[Jesse David Fox]

This business hasn't landed where it's going to land yet. And people keep looking backwards and saying, no, we just need to get movie going back to where it was.

[Brett Goldstein]

That Boat sailed.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's not gonna happen anymore.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's this week on channels wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

[Jesse David Fox]

So now it's time for the final segment of the show. It's called the laughing round. It's like a lightning round, but because it's a comedy podcast, I call it a laughing round. Do you have a favorite joke? Joke? Like a street joke?

[Brett Goldstein]

I guess the one that I like. It's like, oh, it was terrible. This morning, my. I was at the airport and I asked for this woman. This woman behind the counter had large breasts. And I said, could I get two pickets for Pittsburgh? And the friend says, oh, you think that's bad? This morning I said to my wife, I meant to say, what time do I pick up the kids today? But instead I said, fuck off and die. You can't. You've ruined my life. That's.

[Jesse David Fox]

I never heard that one.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's one of my dad's.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is there a joke from another comedian you wish you wrote? Everything's exactly the same, but this joke gets to be in your act and you get to tell it.

[Brett Goldstein]

There's a bit In Adam Sandler's 100% fresh that's one of my favorite bits of stand up is such as simple story. But when he. Do you remember the bit? He's. He goes to the. To go on a roller coaster and his wife and kids. It's two people seats and he's with his wife and daughter. So the wife and daughter automatically take the two seats and so he has to sit on his own. And then another guy, stranger, sits next to me. He's like, fucking hell. And. And as the roller coaster goes, they get like jolted and they look at each other and they laugh. And then the adrenaline kicks in. They go on another thing. And then he looks at it and he's like, are we in love? I think that's such a great. It's such a lovely bit. Yeah. I think that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Would you host snl?

[Brett Goldstein]

If they asked me to, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And so at the beginning they go, what would you like to do? Like, they'll be like, oh, I've always wanted to do that. What would you want to do on snl?

[Brett Goldstein]

I actually have an idea for it, but I don't want to share it because it's the real idea that I think would be a really good sketch. But I maybe make it. I'll just make it. But. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

What's the general area? It's just when it happens, people are like, oh, that's when I first heard about that.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's a. I don't know what you call those shows. A reality contestant show?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, competition show. Reality competition show, sort of. If I asked you any question about playing Hercules in the MCU in the future, should I believe what you say or no matter what I ask, would you lie?

[Brett Goldstein]

I will tell you I have nothing to say on it. And you can believe that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Should I?

[Brett Goldstein]

As in I have nothing? As in I don't know anything and I have nothing. Just. That is the truth. But you can think I'm lying, but.

[Jesse David Fox]

I actually believe you. How much money did you spend to use Yesterday by the Beatles in your special?

[Brett Goldstein]

Now that is amazing, isn't it? That is amazing. You know what? I am very, again, very grateful, very lucky. I wrote a letter to Paul McCartney and I said, I get it, I get it, brother. This is a big deal. This is a big song. But I said, the context in which I'm using it I think is pretty beautiful. And I'm saying that your song has changed the world and saved people's lives. And please, please, can we have it? And we got from it. And he said, yes, for free. I think we paid us. I think we. Whatever the, whatever the version, the publishing or the. There's one price for the thing which is like standard for everyone, and then there's the thing, which is like millions. That bit was free. So we paid whatever you have.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah. Very fortunate. As fast as possible, can you walk me through your workout routine? People have asked, so if they just. They're curious.

[Brett Goldstein]

I do weights four times a week and then I do two days of cardio and I do Pilates once a week. Push, pull or push one day pull, the next day legs back to push.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, double push.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, if you're only going, you've got four days to fill. You've only got three things to do.

[Jesse David Fox]

Low rep, heavy weight or high rep.

[Brett Goldstein]

Low weight, mixed mix.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have any advice for an aspiring actor, comedian, writer?

[Brett Goldstein]

My advice is always, always make your own stuff. And it. And like I say, and I really, I always think it's easy for people who are, who are currently making things. You know, it's easy for me to say, but I lived it. You know, the big thing didn't happen until I was fucking 38 and I was working for 20 years before that. And in those 20 years, I made stuff at a very small level. But I love to make. That is. My advice is make stuff. Make stuff, make stuff, write stuff. Do I remind. Do everything. You have no excuse. You can say well, but I. You just have to not sleep. There's enough time if you don't sleep.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of a joke that didn't work that you'll go to your grave thinking was funny? And you're like, I was right there. Wrong.

[Brett Goldstein]

Something I've sort of discovered maybe that I think is interesting about comedians is you people will accept. I often talk about this. There's a guy in England I won't name comedian. Very, very, very, very good comedian. I genuinely think he's one of the greats. But he has glasses and he looks like a professor. And I think people see him as a professor. And he did some sex stuff in his show that was great. Fucking great jokes. But the audience didn't like it. And it wasn't that they didn't like the jokes. They didn't like him doing jokes about sex. And he told me this. He had this realization halfway through his run. He was like, but they don't want me to talk about sex. And I was like, those jokes are so good. And he was like, yeah. And I can't do them. And I think for some reason I'm okay. People don't mind me talking about sex. Yeah, but what is. They don't like me doing one liners. I've discovered I'm not great at them anyway. Yeah, but every time I've had a thing that is just a one liner, they go, no, we don't want that from you. No, thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have one?

[Brett Goldstein]

It was something like. They say, be the most interesting person in the room. So when I walk into a party, I go, I'm bleeding. Something like that. I think, that's good.

[Jesse David Fox]

Last one. What's the best time you ever bombed?

[Brett Goldstein]

The best. As in a fun.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, I. Yeah, you were like, you know what?

[Brett Goldstein]

I'll always remember this as a. I don't enjoy bombing. It's very depressing and so weird. It's so weird because you also, like. You feel like an alien. You're like. And it's so objectively true. It's like, well, if you're not. If you're not into this, then I guess I'm not funny. Like, I can't prove you wrong. Now, if you've collectively decided and you do feel like they call it a death, because it does feel like that. You feel like a ghost. You're stood there like, can you see me? What the fuck is happening?

[Jesse David Fox]

Did I speak this entire time? Was there a time that was. I mean, the most memorable?

[Brett Goldstein]

I got invited to Ibiza to Do a gig. And it was me and a comedian called Rich Wilson and a comedian called Katherine Ryan. Brilliant, brilliant comedians. And the three of us flew to Ibiza, and I was thinking, I don't know what this is gonna be like, but it was exciting. And it was like they flew us out. This was like the first time I'd gone overseas to do a gig, and I think it was probably paid quite well. And we were going to stay in this hotel where the gig was. And anyway, we get there, it's not the fun part of Ibiza. It's like the other end of the island. And it turns out it's like a Jet Ski convention or something. And when we get there, we arrive, and the guy's really excited, picks up from the airport, and he's like, tomorrow, I'm gonna take you out on the Jet Skis. And, you know, everyone's gonna love this. The first time we've had comedy here. And we go to the hotel, and there's like, it's outdoors that what they're gonna do. And I look at this and I, like, outdoors is bad for comedy. My gut tells me this is not great. And there's stages here, and there's, like, dinner tables, you know, but it also is empty. I'm like, where is everyone? They go, oh, they've all been. They're on a booze cruise for the day. And you're like, fuck. What? So then this load of people return to the hotel, and what I'm hearing, their chat is like. I overhear, like, someone going, fucking hell. Tits fell out. We was all laughing. Everyone's talking about this girl's tits for. Ah, fuck it. All of this. I'm like, I don't know if this is good. However the thing starts. Everyone's quite. I think everyone's tired. They've had this long day, so there isn't. I'm thinking it's gonna be raucous. And in fact, it's not. It's pretty quiet, but it's full. Everyone around these tables. There's like an emcee who wants to play music for them. No, they just ignore him. And then he goes, oh, for fuck's sake. All right, well, here's your first act. And he brings on Rich Wilson. And Rich Wilson, who is a fantastic comedian, does a great job to silence. And he looks at me and he goes, fucking, I think he says into, like, fucking hell, Brett. He goes, oh, good luck, son. And he brings my. So I've watched. I'm going, okay, my. You know, I'VE done this before. This is a. This is bad. Okay, so what does this audience need? I think what they need is high energy. I gotta come in big. They're gonna, you know, what is happening so far has not worked. And these are good people. These are good people.

[Jesse David Fox]

Good jet skiing people.

[Brett Goldstein]

Good people. It's like. So I go on. I go on big, much bigger than I normally do. I literally go on like this. Yeah. Onto the stage and I go. I pick my sort of five bangers, like usual, sort of closer type. Bang, bang, bang. I go, yeah, bang, bang. The best stuff I have. Bang, bang, bang. Five minutes. I stop. Silence. Total silence. To the extent that I go. Maybe the acoustics hunt. Like, it genuinely is, like, baffling. There's nothing. Not even like a titter. Nothing. They're not hegg. Just silence. And I go, like a bad comedy guy. Tap the mic. Okay, can you hear me? And they all go, yes. And they go, oh, do you just hate me then? And they go, yes. And so then for two minutes in a funny. We're trying to make rich. Laughs go like, oh, this is. We've flown here for this. I came on a plane for this. This is gonna. You horrible. Trying to be, like, comically angry. Nothing, actually. They're just staring at me. Ah, I'm gonna be you. Nothing, nothing, nothing. And then I sort of stop, but it's still silent. And I go, like. And I've never in my life at this point, ever left the stage earlier or done, you know, ever walked up. I've done seven minutes. I was going to do 25. I go, I go. I genuinely. I say, true from my heart. I go, I generally don't know what to do with you. I don't know what to do now. Silence. And then I go, do you just want me to go? And they go, yes. So then. But then I do this because I think this is funny. I leave the stage and I run straight back on. I go, did someone say encore? Silence. I'm like, you fucking cunts. And then I left. And then what made the whole thing so much worse is I then had to sit back because we're in this. I have to sit with them. They take a break. They then, in this break, move everything up to the stage. So now everyone's up by the stage. And then Katherine Ryan goes on and kills. Kills so hard that it's like, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess it's playable. I guess it is playable. And then we're then stuck with these people. Can't go anywhere. We're on an island and I have to spend the rest of the evening with these people saying to me, you should have done what Katherine did. And I go, well, I talk about my kid and they go, she's really good at this. You should do more like what Catherine did. And I'm like, she is really, really good. But there's no. You can't say to them. It was slightly effective when we moved. Like, there was a different. There is. But you're right. Yeah, of course you're right. Objectively, I should have done. I should have done her set. And then I had to stay another day. The guy disappeared. He did not invite us on jet skis. We never saw him again. I then was like a rat in this hotel because I then didn't want to go down for breakfast and see the fucking same people. So I was, like, hiding in alleyways waiting for a chance to run and grab some bread and go back to my room. It was awful. It was bad.

[Jesse David Fox]

Thank you so much.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thank you so much. I look forward to your book.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we're back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.

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