Comedians Won't Forget Who Performed at the Riyadh Comedy Festival Soon (with Jay Jurden)

Summary

Good One: A Podcast About Jokes

"Comedians Won't Forget Who Performed at the Riyadh Comedy Festival Soon"

Guest: Jay Jurden
Host: Jesse David Fox
Date: October 9, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode forgoes the show's usual deep-dive on a single joke to tackle the biggest comedy news of the moment: the controversy surrounding the Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia. Host Jesse David Fox is joined by New York stand-up Jay Jurden (also, notably, did not attend the festival) to discuss why so many prominent comedians—many of them self-styled free speech warriors—chose to participate in this government-run event, what it means for comedy as an art form, and the complicated questions surrounding money, reputation, and moral responsibility.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Happened at the Riyadh Comedy Festival?

• Top comedians (Dave Chappelle, Kevin Hart, Bill Burr, etc.) performed in Saudi Arabia for a festival organized by the ruling monarchy, known for human rights abuses and suppression of free speech.
• Comedians were paid huge sums—reportedly 40x their normal rate.
• Contracts stipulated strict limits on free speech: Comedians could not "degrade, defame, or bring into public disrepute" the Kingdom, its royal family, legal system, or religions.
• Human Rights Watch and other critics accused the performers of "laundering" the regime’s reputation.

Notable Quotes:

• "For their troubles, the comedians are being paid very, very, very, very, very well. One comedian implied the offer was 40 times their normal rate." (Jesse David Fox, 02:25)
• "If you do it and you come back, all praises be to Allah if you come back...we gonna make fun of you for a little bit. And that's the rule." (Jay Jurden, 00:52)

---

2. Would You Go? A Comedian’s Role-Play

• Jesse and Jay role-play an imaginary offer: $375k to perform at the festival, asking what would make someone say yes or no.
• Jay’s take: Safety and queer identity are top concerns; for many, fear for safety is totally rational and isn’t voiced enough.
• The lure of money is undeniable, but it’s rarely just about the fee: "Everyone will think about half a million dollars. Everyone will think about a quarter of a million dollars." (Jay Jurden, 07:07)
• For some marginalized comics, even considering the gig feels too risky.

---

3. Why Are They Really Going?

Motivations:

• Money: The amounts are life-changing for most comics.
• Global appeal: Comedians want to build international audiences and be seen as “worldwide.”
• Ego & "honor": Being directly asked by a monarchy feels prestigious ("the royal family wants me...the prince who hates comedy wants me. I'm different, I'm special. It's kind of pick me, girl." – Jay Jurden, 22:21)
• Material: Experience can fuel future bits or specials.
• For more established acts, some may (naively) assume their involvement will advance Saudi progress or free speech.

Notable Quotes:

• "The goal is not to make money from it right now, but is to make Saudi Arabia seem like a place that, like, comedians feel comfortable going." (Jesse, 16:44)
• "If you get material from this, then you're also getting paid in that regard." (Jay, 19:38)

---

4. Moral Complexity: Free Speech, Complicity, and Hypocrisy

• Contract restrictions clash directly with the "free speech" brand of many performers.
• The festival is seen as an extension of Saudi "soft power," designed to distract from its repressive policies.
• The nature of the gig is not just "performing IN" but "performing FOR" the government—a crucial difference.
• Comparisons to U.S. hypocrisy: yes, America is flawed, but this is more akin to doing a paid show for Don Jr. with him able to jail critics.
• Some comedians declined: Jessica Kirson (regretted attending and will donate her fee), Aziz Ansari (donates a portion), Shane Gillis, Nimesh Patel reversed course, Mike Birbiglia, and likely John Mulaney.

Notable Quotes:

• "You are literally going to allow Saudi Arabia to pretend that free speech is being allowed." (Jesse, 11:14)
• "This is the equivalent of you performing for Don Jr. at his behest. If Don Jr. could point at people and go send them to jail, that's exactly what this is." (Jay, 25:04)
• "You can't even make that joke [about the royal family], which should be the joke you should be able to make, but you can't." (Jay, 48:22)

---

5. How Is This Different from Corporate Gigs or Touring in Shady Places?

• Both Jay and Jesse analogize to particularly "iffy" corporate gigs: "It also is kissing the ring of an authoritarian government. If you say any shit about the royals in the UK...you're a bit of a hypocrite for taking this gig and we gonna make fun of you." (Jay, 12:21)
• Performing for people in problematic U.S. states vs. performing FOR their leaders: fundamentally different.
• Comparisons to other entertainers (WWE, singers, athletes), but comedy carries the brand of "free speech" in a singular way.

---

6. How Has Comedy Reacted Internally?

• Within the U.S. comedy community, the main consequence is being made fun of, not blackballed:
  • "No one's really mad at these people...We’re just giving you a little shit." (Jay, 11:19)
  • Comics like Stavros, Marc Maron, and Zach Woods have publicly joked about peers who accepted.
  • The feeling is, as long as comics "can take us being a little shitty towards you", that's the community's code (Jay, 40:17).
• Most fans will move on once a comic has their next hit special or podcast clip.

Notable Moment:

• Jay recounts a conversation at the Cellar: "Simeon, what's your number to do it? He said, man, give me $20,000. I said, and a brick. He said, and a brick. If I can flip that..." (Jay, 39:19)
• "People are not gonna make fun of the people who did Riyadh forever. They're gonna be like, that was crazy. But there is a difference." (Jay, 56:26)

---

7. The Money Dialogue & The Culture of Secrecy

• The sums involved make comics squirm when they’re discussed out loud.
• The culture in comedy discourages "pocket-watching" or talking specifics on who's paid what, yet transparency (as with Maria Bamford) shifts the conversation.
• "Probably a lot of these comedians might be more uncomfortable people talking about their money than talking about how they're a bad person." (Jesse, 53:11; Jay, 53:19)

---

8. Can This Have Any Positive Impact?

• Possible upsides: Some Saudi women, queer people, or future comics might feel inspired seeing international comics on stage.
• But this doesn’t mitigate the reality of being used for state “whitewashing.”
• The "westernization" or "cultural transfer" justification is called naive—Saudi isn't passively being changed simply by exposure.

---

9. Free Speech in Comedy: Rhetoric vs. Reality

• The festival reveals who supports "free speech" as a core artistic value and who sees it as a useful rhetorical tool—especially when they accept money to limit their speech.
• Jesse frames this as a moment of revealing: "We're now getting a new list of, like, who are the free speech comedians. And who are this other group of people?" (Jesse, 56:15)

---

Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• Jay Jurden on the Comedy Rule:

  • "If you do it and you come back, all praises be to Allah if you come back...but guess what? We gonna make fun of you for a little bit. And that's the rule." (00:52)

• Jesse David Fox on Why the Money Is So High:

  • "That's part of why they're paying you so much money." (08:37)

• Jay Jurden on Doing Corporate Gigs:

  • "But it also is kissing the ring of an authoritarian government. If you say any shit about the royals in the UK, you're a bit of a hypocrite for taking this gig and we gonna make fun of you." (12:21)

• Jay on Money and Reputation:

  • "If you want the good credit and the good graces of Americans...you give $200,000 or you give $100,000 to a charitable organization that helps queer people, that helps women, that helps journalists, that helps free speech." (08:44)

• Jesse on Free Speech and Performing For, not In:

  • "There’s such a difference between performing in and performing for." (15:16)
  • "You are literally going to allow Saudi Arabia to pretend that free speech is being allowed." (11:14)

• Jay on How This Will Be Remembered:

  • "I think people are gonna make fun of them. I think people are also gonna look back and be like, woo, that was crazy. That's kind of crazy. Y'all did that." (53:34)

---

Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:52 – 02:08: Jay Jurden’s opening riff about the festival; rationale for why comedians who go will be roasted on return
• 02:08 – 04:54: Jesse lists the big names attending; lays out the ethical criticisms and contractual limits
• 04:54 – 07:03: Role-play of a comedian being offered a huge fee; discussion on personal risk versus payoff
• 10:10 – 13:00: Comparing this gig to corporate/commercial gigs and what that means for hypocrisy and ball-busting
• 14:31 – 16:44: Explanation of Saudi Arabia's Vision 2030, sovereign wealth, and why overpaying comedians serves regime image
• 19:43 – 21:54: How comics will turn this gig into future material; the "Fleshlight effect"
• 24:21 – 26:46: On false equivalencies ("America does bad stuff too") and why gig for a government is different from gig in a problematic place
• 32:36 – 36:50: Jay and Jesse discuss feelings of disappointment in specific comics; Bill Burr as an emblematic case
• 40:31 – 41:42: How comics are joking about this in clubs, podcasts, and backstage
• 50:35 – 51:40: Jessica Kirson’s public regret and plan to donate her fee; the optics of giving back "blood money"
• 55:06 – 56:12: After Kimmel v. free speech, this is another clarifying line in the sand about who really cares about free speech in comedy

---

Final Thoughts

• Neither Jay nor Jesse see U.S. comedy "ending" over this. The main community consequence is being lampooned by your peers.
• They stress the difference between genuine moral outrage and the time-honored tradition of comedians roasting each other for career choices.
• True progress, if any, will come from new voices inspired at home, not exported from abroad.
• Free speech is exposed as a sometimes cynical, sometimes deeply-held value: this festival drew a bright line between those types of comics.
• The real legacy of the Riyadh festival may simply be: "You come back, people will make fun of you. That’s always been the rule."

---

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This conversation gave a candid, funny, and searching look at a headline-grabbing moment in global comedy—one that cuts to core questions about artistic freedom, complicity, money, and reputation in 2025. With plenty of behind-the-scenes anecdotes, up-to-the-minute gossip, and pointed humor, Jay Jurden and Jesse David Fox offer both empathy and sharp elbows to the comics involved—and set the record straight on what really matters inside the comedy world.

Transcript

[Jesse David Fox]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send.

[Jay Jerden]

Event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss.

[Jesse David Fox]

A meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Jay Jerden]

Learn [e-mail] My take on the Riyadh Comedy Festival in Saudi Arabia. If you do it and you come back, all praises be to Allah if you come back. And first of all, I'm gonna count your fingers and your toes. Make sure you got all them. I'm gonna say, good, I'm glad you're back. I'm glad it was a round trip. But guess what? We gonna make fun of you for a little bit. And that's the rule. No one's being excommunicated from the comedy society. Everyone is welcome back. Everyone can come back to whoever they told jokes before. But just know people are going to make fun of you a little bit. The same way we're going to make fun of you if we saw you at the inauguration. The same reason we're going to make fun of you if we saw you caping for if you were standing next to Joe Biden and licking an ice cream cone in aviator glasses with him, we would make fun of you. Okay, that's, that's how it should be and that's how it's been for so long. But this one thing is supposed to make us go, no, no, you. Because if you do that festival, you're performing for their Don Jr. If Don Jr. Could kill people. If Don Jr. Had his own at Rikers, that's who you're performing for. And if you go over there and say, oh, they were so nice to me. Great. Good. I'm glad you made it back. But guess what? We get to make fun of you for a little bit.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer at Vulture and author of ComedyBook. Today, instead of a traditional deep dive interview, we're gonna talk about the biggest comedy news story happening right now. The Riyadh Comedy Festival. The lineup includes some of the biggest name comedy right now and ever. Dave Chappelle, Kevin Hart, Bill Burr, Gabriel Iglesias, Ziz Ansari, Louis ck, Andrew Schultz, Pete Davidson, Top Segura, Chris Tucker, Whitney Cummings, and more. Many of the performers are comedians known for being vocal defenders of free speech, especially when it comes to their right to say whatever they want, thus raising eyebrows for their decision to perform for a government known for political censorship and human rights abuses. Human Rights Watch, a nonprofit organization that monitors human rights standards all over the world, has accused comedians performing at the festival of being complicit in deflecting attention from Saudi Arabia's brutal repression of free speech and other pervasive human rights violations. For their troubles, the comedians are being paid very, very, very, very, very well. One comedian implied the offer was 40 times their normal rate. Less famous acts might be getting somewhere in the mid six figures where the biggest names are surely getting millions. In exchange for the money, the comedians must compromise their free speech. As a release contract showed that the festival organizers demanded the comedians not perform, and I quote, any material that may be considered to degrade, defame, or bring into public disrepute, contempt, scandal, embarrassment or ridicule. I against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Saudi royal family, legal system, government, or any religion. Though according to Dave Chappelle, it was easier for him to do comedy in Riyadh than to do comedy in America right now, where he can get canceled if you discuss Charlie Kirk. Whereas Jessica Kirsten, one of the few women and queer people to perform, expressed regret upon returning. While she wanted to help LGBTQ people in Saudi Arabia feel seen and valued, she also deeply regretted participating under the auspices of the Saudi government. She says she'll be donating the entirety of her fee. Aziz Ansari says he'll be donating a portion of his fee, though he feels performing there was ultimately worth it in its potential to help move the Saudi culture forward. So are the best comedians in the world just doing their act, participating in a cultural exchange of ideas? Or are they cashing a huge check and looking the other way? Or are they actively helping launder the reputation of Saudi Arabia? That's what we will discuss today with Jay Jardin, one of New York's great stand up comedians who, for the record, did not attend the Riyadh Comedy Festival. So here is Jay Jardin. All right, I'm here with Jay Jerden. Thank you for joining me.

[Jay Jerden]

Thank you for having Me, Jesse David Fox.

[Jesse David Fox]

All right, so I want to start here. We're going to do a role play.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay?

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm playing your agent.

[Jay Jerden]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

You're playing yourself.

[Jay Jerden]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

Okay. Ring, ring, ring.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay. What's up? Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Hey, hey, hey.

[Jay Jerden]

I'll take it down. I'll take the tweet down. I'll take the tweet down.

[Jesse David Fox]

No, no, no. It's actually about something else. Okay. So it's Jesse, your agent. Okay. We got this offer, okay? Crazy money, okay. Looking at 375k flights, hotels.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's a comedy festival, okay. In Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

[Jay Jerden]

Oh.

[Jesse David Fox]

Organized by the. The palace.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

But big money.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

What are you thinking? What are you thinking?

[Jay Jerden]

Hold on. I gotta talk to my husband super quickly. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

$375,000.

[Jay Jerden]

I'm gonna think it over. Okay. Would you say buy the palace like Jamal Khashoggi? Like, that's.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah. So the same prince that allegedly oversaw that had a big initiative to get more involved in the entertainment industry.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay. Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

So the Saudi Wealth Fund is getting involved in the entertainment industry, and they think comedy is, like, the new frontier that they really want to explore with some of the, you know, bravest and brightest upcoming kids.

[Jay Jerden]

Jazzy, you know I'm queer, right? Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

There are other queer comedians, okay? Ass are on the table.

[Jay Jerden]

Can I talk about that stuff on stage? It's a lot of my acts. It's a lot of my acts.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think you talk about it actually about yourself. But you can't imply there are any gay people living in Saudi Arabia, okay.

[Jay Jerden]

Because. Okay. Okay. All right. And the performance venue is not a roof, correct?

[Jesse David Fox]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay. All right. I'm gonna have to think it over. Hold on. I have Tim Dillon on the other line, so let me call you back. Bye.

[Jesse David Fox]

And scene.

[Jay Jerden]

And scene.

[Jesse David Fox]

Too hot in here for this.

[Jay Jerden]

This is. No, you said that to Riyadh.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

You had that air set to Saudi Arabia.

[Jesse David Fox]

But realistically, imagine that. I mean, like, let's say 40 times your normal club.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

They offer you. Would you think about it?

[Jay Jerden]

What's my number? Everyone would think about it. Everyone will think about half a million dollars. Everyone will think about a quarter of a million dollars. 250,000 to 500,000. That's usually when people go, wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay. Anything under that? I'm kind of like, why? But if we're saying it's getting into the quarter million, half a million territory, my big thing is my personal safety and my fears. So specifically for Me, selfishly, for me. And it's the only lens I can really see it through. I wouldn't do it. People say, oh, Jay, would you ever go to Dubai? I would never go to Dubai. I just can't do it. I don't love slavery. That's. I'm weird. I don't like it if they can take away your passport when you get there. I don't love that being the ominous threat. And I know there are queer people doing it. I know there are. I know Wayne Brady's doing it. In my opinion, Wayne Brady is probably gonna sing a couple of, you know, Bacharach songs. He's gonna do a couple of short form improv games with them. I don't think that they're getting the most pansexual Wayne Brady. That's my opinion as a queer. With Jess Kurzen. I'm friendly with Jess Kurzen. I don't know. I hope she's safe. There's a fear there for me that I wish other people would demonstrate and at least voice because I'd be scared. That's just me. I'm a coward.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I do think that is a factor that has not been voiced where they're like, if you arrive and are gonna perform and are nervous.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's part of why they're paying you so much money. Yes.

[Jay Jerden]

Right. And I know, like, everyone thinks, like, oh, you're not supposed to pocket watch, not supposed to talk about angel money. And the whole part of comedy right now is, like, everything's mysterious. And, like, some people, like Maria Bamford, are kind of like, pioneers when it comes to transparency and when people get paid. I think Otsuko did a good job of being very transparent with, as far as, like, some of the rules that were stated in this. This is when it gets really murky for me, because let's say you do it, you go over there, you come back, you got half a million dollars. If you want the good credit and the good graces of Americans, you know what you do with half a million dollars? You give $200,000 or you give $100,000 to a charitable organization that helps queer people, that helps women, that helps journalists, that helps free speech, anything, then, okay, maybe people won't make fun of you as much. But like I said before, the rule is, if you do it, you come back, I'm making fun of you. Stavros made fun of Sam, Mark, and Chris Stephano to their faces on We Might be Drunk. And you want to know why? Because Stavros is smart enough to be like, y' all are doing that. What? Oh, my God. And they were like. They took it and guess. And they're going to. And they're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. If you come back and you let us make fun of you a little bit because guess this administration is so crazy. Something else is going to happen.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's fair. I think the free speech element is why we're talking about this. Because it's like people have been performing in Saudi Arabia for a few years now. People are much more famous than any of these Comedians.

[Jay Jerden]

Yes. Singers. Big.

[Jesse David Fox]

Big acts, big athletes, obviously performing there.

[Jay Jerden]

The wwe. Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

The. Like, how involved it is in sports. The. They had a movie festival. Famous movie was there. And you're a comedian. I write about comedy. That is my purview. This is not like, I'm not an expert on Saudi Arabia to say, like, Saudi Arabia shouldn't exist. Like, I have no. This is really about, like, in so much as comedy is the face of free speech as an art form perspective. To go to a place that's. One of its main things is curtailing free speech and specifically knowing that they are censoring you in the way that is political. It's not like, oh, don't. It was just like, actually, you know, we're a very religious place. I know other countries have stuff like that. Or they don't talk about drugs.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

But it is. Do not talk about this country in a way that would bring dishonor to us. Do not talk about the royal family. Like that is. I remember when Jim Jeffries was talking about, like, oh, it's so important for comedians go. Because, like, we're free speech warriors or something like that. But, like, that's not what you're doing.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

You are literally going to allow Saudi Arabia to pretend that free speech is being allowed.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. And to make commercials about you going there and to show other people it's safe to go there. And for a lot of those male straight comics, it is safe for them to go there the same way it's safe for them to go to Dubai. The same way it's safe for them to go to a bunch of places that queer people and women, some other marginalized groups might not feel as safe going. I, once again, I can't stop anyone from making half a million dollars. And I get that half a million dollars is half a million dollars. What I am going to stress is that no one is. No one's really mad at these people. When Marc Maron makes a joke about it, he's not mad at you. He's just giving you a little shit. These are just like playful nudges and kind of like ball busting. The kind of stuff that comedy has been known for forever. So I don't know why people are mad that people are busting your balls about doing this.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's. It is. I mean, well, it's interesting because it is not unlike doing a corporate gig.

[Jay Jerden]

It is. It's a. It's a corporate gig or.

[Jesse David Fox]

And there's lots of corporate gigs that comedians are doing. Not publicize, but corporations.

[Jay Jerden]

Listen, I did one gig in New York City. I won't say for what company. I opened up this. I opened up the set with being like, y' all aren't evil. Right? And they were like. Then at the end of the gig, they were like, hey, so we're trying to create this, like, large language model system where we get some of your jokes and you do a roast battle against yourself. And I was like, oh, so y' all are evil. Okay, so it's a corporate gig. Sure. But it also is kissing the ring of an authoritarian government. If you've said. If you say any shit about the royals in the uk, you're a bit of a hypocrite for taking this gig and we gonna make fun of you. You know what I mean? It's a princess.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is different because it's like a corporation that financially supported 911 happens is a little bit different. But no, I mean, like, it is all a factor. Right. And I do think the sort of.

[Jay Jerden]

Jazzy's mad because I did that one Raytheon gig and guess what? I'll do it again. Well, it is.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like, right? Because it's like these comedians perform at a lot of places, a lot of countries that have different moral standards than necessarily we have. I was doing reform in America. That have different moral standards than we personally, probably.

[Jay Jerden]

I was just in Canada. I understand. Things can be so different.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Or there's states that have laws that are.

[Jay Jerden]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think the thing that I sort of go back to is there. Or like, I think a good example is like, comedians want to visit the Vatican.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, Right.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it's like the Vatican has a long history of very complicated things to. Or like straight up abuses. Right. Human rights violations. Right. And the thing is, they just went. The Vatican invited comedians, comedians went. The only thing was come visit the Vatican. And if you want to take a picture of the place, take A picture. There are no rules other than. I actually don't know what rules there were. So it's like you had a thing where it's like Mike Rubigli went to the Vatican and he talked at length in a special about how he had complicated feelings about the Vatican where if you were invited to the Riyadh Comedy Festival and. And had complicated feelings about it that you voice, they then disinvited you.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tim Dylan, Jim Jeffries. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Because the funny thing was literally their defense of going got them disinvited.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. Their defense of going and saying no, they invited me and they let me say all this crazy stuff about them. Of course, they're being a bit more lenient now. And then they rescinded the invitations. I think that was very telling. I also think that the difference between this and I'm doing a show in Tampa.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

In a week. That's still a little different. I'm not doing a show for Ron DeSantis.

[Jesse David Fox]

Exactly.

[Jay Jerden]

I'm not doing a show for the government of Florida. I'm doing a show for the people who want to come to side Splitters. You know, that's. That, that's the difference.

[Jesse David Fox]

That is the difference. The difference is there's such a difference between performing in and performing for. For. Because the thing that I go back to is like, what are they paying for? Right.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So it's like you have a normal rate. Let's say it's. Let's say it's. Your normal rate is $100,000 and they're going to offer you $1 million. You're not going to sell $1 million more worth of tickets than you normally do.

[Jay Jerden]

Well, you know why it is? Because my Arabic's not that good.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like literally. And they're not playing in venues that even the case will say nothing of the fact that there's no indication that people sell out there because there's not a large ticket buying population there. So then what do you think they're paying you for? Yeah. And it's. And it's for what benefit they get out. And this is the thing about. This is the sort of Saudi Arabia's. So the idea is the Crown Prince and Prime Minister Mohammed bin Sal. Mohammed bin Salman, who is the. The visionary of MBS. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Saudi Arabia's vision to 2030. And the basic premise of that is we're going to spend a lot of the money we have to both diversify how we make money, but really to be so financially intertwined with the west, that you can't treat us as like a lesser country. You could maybe look past certain human rights violations, which is why he was able to appear with Joe Biden, right?

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, America's not. Not implicated in this.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

But that money, the Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund, is like a thing that's buying sports teams. It is like being. It's investing in Disney, it's invented, investing in Nintendo. And it is overpaying everywhere, losing money, because the goal is not to make money from it right now, but is to make Saudi Arabia seem like a place that, like, comedians feel comfortable going. Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

I mean, that history isn't separate from this festival, because this festival is part of that. This festival is part of that big push. This festival, like you said, having more sports, having more boxing matches, having a soccer team, having more wwe, being able to say, no, we love comedy. That is a whitewashing of clamping down on journalists, clamping down on a comedian and then, like, you know, having weird stuff happen with that comic and that comic's wife.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

So there's a.

[Jesse David Fox]

The story is, in 2019, a comedian and his wife is an activist, specifically about, I believe, women's rights to drive.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And both were arrested. Eventually. That comedian was. Is back, and he's a popular community in Saudi Arabia. That wife has, I believe, not been seen for a while. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

And so then as a comic, you hear that and you go, oh, I gotta take this gig. And once again, you can take the. That's. I think that's the hard part of the people. Like, some. You're doing a good job of it. But some journalists, too, are very self serious. I think even that article that came out in Guardian was so like, can you believe Mark Norman said this? I was like, I can believe that Mark Norman said a joke about genital mutilation in foreign countries. I. I can believe that. I can believe that people joked about some of the human rights atrocities in America on their podcast because they're attempting to find levity in this situation that they're gonna go do because they said yes to it already.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Yeah. I think the sense is that there are comedians that don't really know or don't care or they didn't know, then they are forced to learn more about it and now had to decide not to care. Some people decided they did care and then ultimately backed out.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. Nemesh backed out.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

And the other thing I would even say, I would say that, like, okay, let's say Scholz Goes and does this. And as you know, when Andrew Scholz does something like this, particularly about a different ethnic enclave, he has a lot of information. He either learns about them, gathers about them before, and brings it back to New York. So I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of these comics who are doing this, they're going to have a big chunk of their next hour or their touring hour be about, what is it? What was it like to go to Saudi Arabia? And, you know, that's the other part of it. If you get material from this, then you're also getting paid in that regard. So that's why some people are doing it. Some people are doing it for the story.

[Jesse David Fox]

Fluffy went to Saudi Arabia like 15 years ago.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And has a 24 minute story about going to Saudi Arabia that acknowledges, I'd say, almost nothing other than that. And it's basically just about how cool everyone was.

[Jay Jerden]

And as a surprise, like the juxtaposition of, like, I was so worried.

[Jesse David Fox]

I thought they were gonna be so backwards.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. They were so nice and they were.

[Jesse David Fox]

So nice and I realized they. And then it's like they're not like who you see in Fox News is what it is. So he says in the joke, yeah, they're like everybody else. They're cool, they love comedy. And I believe the goal when they invited Fluffy and the goal when they're inviting all these people is something similar. I'm reminded of the fact that for like a few years, Fleshlights.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Were given as a gift at every comedy festival. I don't know if you know this. Do you know this? This was like a living.

[Jay Jerden]

I never got a Fleshlight.

[Jesse David Fox]

You started.

[Jay Jerden]

Hey, hey, hey, jfl, where's my Fleshlight? Hey, Spencer, where's my Fleshlight?

[Jesse David Fox]

Truly was like, I think right before you would be going to these festivals, every festival. And as a result, I'd say about like five to ten comedians had large sections about using Fleshlight. Now, Fleshlight didn't pay them.

[Jay Jerden]

No.

[Jesse David Fox]

But they just put them in a situation to do material. Of course they're gonna do material. It's so wild that they have these Fleshlights.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. I want to carry one around like a Stanley cup and drink out of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

See, you're already doing that. I do think that is sort of what they're hoping because they know that, like, oh, someone will do. It's too crazy not to do it. But also, these comedians, one either would be too scared to say everything about it or they want the money again.

[Jay Jerden]

And guess what, your reputation, you've Made your money back. When Chappelle does a good 15 minute chunk about how cool Saudi Arabia was in his next in his Netflix special, when Kevin Hart does it, when Scholz does it. So they're not stupid. This is a very intentional and shrewd business decision on their part.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a sense of what are the main reasons the comedians are doing it?

[Jay Jerden]

I think that is it only money? I think it's money. I think it's money. Global appeal. Everyone loves to say that they're worldwide now. Everyone, as you've noticed, is on tour all the time because that's the only way we make money. Because there's no fucking TV shows anymore. As you know, there are two writers rooms and no one's quitting Seth Meyers. So the hardest part is that everyone wants to be a global act. Everyone wants to be able to say, I can sell out theaters in America and I can sell out theaters in the uk and every now and then I can go to Istanbul, I can go to Saudi Arabia, I can go to other parts of Europe, I can go to Auckland, New Zealand, I can go to Australia. Everyone wants to be a global athlete act because everyone's scared. Everyone also understands that the world has shrank a little bit thanks to social media. So you have these fans that say, please come. I have fans that say, jay, come to the uk. Here's what people don't understand. To be an American comedian and make money at your UK show, you have to sell so many tickets. And I love doing comedy at Top Secret. I love British people. I love. Y' all have some of the best Nigerian Indian food that y' all have stolen. But I. It don't make. It doesn't make money sense for me to go there. And so everyone wants to be a bigger global phenomenon. They see, they see shows sell out Scotiabank. They see everyone else doing big numbers in Canada, in the uk. So this is why. I mean, also, it's an honor. That's how they get you. They go, it's an honor. It's an honor. Because then you get to be like, the royal family wants me. The prince who hates comedy wants me. I'm different, I'm special. It's kind of pick me, girl. It's kind of pick me. Yeah, I'm different, I'm better. And you know, this is what people are going to say to me when they see this. They're going to say, oh, but Jay, you perform at the Cellar. Yeah, but I perform for New York. And guess what? If sdnome, if they see my set, they're not going to be like, oh, Jay can't say this certain thing. They're going to say, oh, Jay's not doing well. They're going to say, oh, Jay's bombing. That's not that. If you get yanked in New York City offstage for bombing there, there's a chance you get pulled off stage because you make one joke about the Prince.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

The Prince that puts people in his own wing in jail, allegedly. If you say something weird about the soccer team. That's crazy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I mean, I think it is useful to talk about the idea of this sort of equivalency or even a fair point that of like. Well, like, America does bad stuff.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay. That's what everyone's saying on threads, on their close friends, on Instagram, which close friends should be for butts and gossip. I don't know why y' all are saying stuff like, America does bad stuff, too. Like, we don't fucking know. No close friends should be for butts and gossip. And we need to get back to that. But they saying, oh, America's bad, too. I don't see how anyone could say that Saudi Arabia is worse than America. No one's saying that. People are just saying, this is the equivalent of you performing for Don Jr. At his behest. If Don Jr. Could point at people and go send them to jail, that's exactly what this is.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it is. It is not. I think it's very important to not make it a big conversation about, like, the grand moralities, all these things, and actually a very specific conversation about what is literally happening.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Which is a country that you do not live in.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

The. The. The people. The ruling party of that country. Not a freestanding promoter.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

The ruling party is specifically paying you way more than you have made for a show that will not earn back the money they're paying you. And I don't think anyone going can delude themselves from thinking that, like, Saudi Arabia is doing it for a reason. Like, it's. It's not just, oh, well, it's like, if you perform in America, that money is taxed, and that tax money goes to the government, and the government funds ICE or whatever, which is. I think that the moral conundrum. One can question, monitor Kevin.

[Jay Jerden]

And if that's how you feel, then say that every time you get off stage, every time you get a check from a club, be like, I hate the fact that I have to accept this blood money from the DC Improv.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I think it is a fair like, it's almost like, I forgive, like, if you're a non American comedian.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And you're performing there, then it's a fair equivalency because you're making a decision to perform in America or you're making a decision to perform in solitary. But. But American comedians live in America. They're performing for Americans. It is not a. This is not. The protests of that sometimes happen when even in America, when like a state does a bill people don't believe in, they're like, oh, we shouldn't perform in that state where you're like, well, you'd be performing for the people who maybe don't like that bill. And you can talk about that. You don't like that bill.

[Jay Jerden]

And I have that shit going on with me when I go to Austin, when I go to perform at Creek of the Cave, when I go to perform in Florida. I'm. I hate the fact that Texas is passing bullshit. I hate the fact I'm going to North Carolina this weekend. I'm mad that North Carolina was so obsessed with fucking bathrooms. I'm still performing for people who might not necessarily be able to see good, high quality queer comedy in that place. And I'm not going there to kiss the ring of the governor or the legislators who passed that bill.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it's.

[Jay Jerden]

And they don't get to dictate what I say.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I do think it's fair to be like, it is money, but it's more about the prospect of so much more money going forward. It's like, like Kevin. Of all the people that are doing it, Kevin Hart is maybe the least surprising because Kevin Hart's goals, at least last I checked, was to make to be a billionaire.

[Jay Jerden]

Kevin Hart.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's hard to be a billionaire in 2025 without involving yourself with the.

[Jay Jerden]

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's gonna have, you know, he's gonna have a K heart gas station soon. He don't have the hamburgers.

[Jesse David Fox]

He should buy Circle K. He should.

[Jay Jerden]

Buy Circle K. Kevin Hart, look at me. We've only chatted once that one time. Buy Circle K. Jesse. David Fox says you need to buy Circle K. I agree. I'm only asking for 5%. That's it. And you selling underwear already. Go ahead and buy Circle K.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think I had one more point to say about that.

[Jay Jerden]

No, I mean, okay, I know what.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was going to say.

[Jay Jerden]

But do you think, do you think that the comics who are doing it, do you think they understand that as a friend, as a peer, as a Coworker. Even as a mortal enemy. I am not saying you are not allowed to do comedy anymore. I'm not saying that you're. That no one would take that money. All I'm saying is, is people are gonna make fun of you for a little bit when you come back to America. And that's always been the rule. When you come back to America, you. Your peers are gonna make fun of you a little bit and that's it. I don't. You're not gonna get banned from anything. You're not gonna lose any job opportunities that I. I don't see any of them losing job opportunities. No one's gonna not put you in movies. No one's gonna not put you on tv. No one's not gonna give you a special. People at the table at the Cellar and people on podcast are gonna. They're gonna bust your balls a little bit.

[Jesse David Fox]

I do think some thought they were going to. No one was going to notice. Yeah, I think there were. I honestly think there are just certain some celebrities that I think like, they just thought like, no one's going to care about them. Really. I'm not in the news as much anymore. I could probably just like performance audio radio.

[Jay Jerden]

You talking about Chris Tucker?

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm talking about. There's a lot of people that I think that. That it is. I'm trying to think of who's the definitive person that I think probably.

[Jay Jerden]

Do you think Chris Tucker is more embarrassed about this or the Epstein island stuff?

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, I think I cannot confirm or deny anything. I mean, I think there are people who. I think the. I'd be curious to talk to a lot of these people about it and like, it will be interesting to see if literally every interview these people do forever.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

If they're going to be asked for a while. Just because he's curious. Because I think like Hannibal burst. Right. The person who would be like, I wonder what he'd be like. I thought no one would notice. Yeah. I was like, they're going to do the festival anyway. I met a. Well, have that money and use it for the things that I would use. That.

[Jay Jerden]

Z way would have a field day if the Hannibal interview now no one's doing this Z way out the show. I'm not going over there, though.

[Jesse David Fox]

This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something touching, timeless. While being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas. There's a song in every Toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. This week on Net Worth and Chill, we're joined by Susie Welch, the best selling author and leadership expert who spent decades helping people win at work and life. From climbing the corporate ladder at prestigious publications to co authoring Winning with Jack Welch, Suzy has turned her insights into both career success and serious money. She opens up about navigating major life transitions, why loving your work is actually a wealth building strategy, and how her ViewBridge tool can transform your biggest career decisions. I also had voices in my head that were preventing me from betting on myself. I was like, why would I bet on myself? I mean, the moment I finally stepped out and stepped into my purpose, I literally, like, I was alone in my room at night and I thought, for the first time in my life, I'm going to do this terrifying thing. I'm going to battle myself. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF empathy. Most of the time we think of it as a good thing. But what happens when all that feeling gets overwhelming? I didn't realize I could run out.

[Jay Jerden]

Of compassion or, you know, run out.

[Jesse David Fox]

Of that ability to put myself in another person's position and understand their feelings. And why do some people think being empathy empathetic isn't just tiring, but morally wrong? All of a sudden, there's sort of been this conversation happening about like, okay, empathy is toxic. Empathy is even sinful. This week on Explain it to Me, who's behind a growing argument against empathy and the science behind why it's actually good for us and other people.

[Jay Jerden]

But when we can turn empathy into action, that's when it starts to benefit us.

[Jesse David Fox]

Find episode Sundays Wherever you get your podcasts, is there anyone you're shocked by or surprised by or disappointed by?

[Jay Jerden]

Okay, disappointed is never gonna be the word just because, like, I just don't know some of these people well enough to be disappointed. No, there's no one who made me go, oh my God. Cause the person that a lot of comics would say is Bill Burr. But once again, I don't have that type of relationship with Bill Burr to be like, oh, no, I never thought he would do. I'm gonna be like, okay, you know, I wanna hear what he has to say about it. This is a very interesting wrinkle in the current Bill Burr kind of love fest that is kind of American comedy right now. Because on the one hand speaks truth to power, says things, says what he's upset about. Had a very, very good joke about Israel and Palestine in the special. Understands the humanity of people in the Middle East. I think whenever people just dip in the kind of naked Islamophobic talking points about this, I think that's a waste of time and stupid. That's stupid. That's dumb.

[Jesse David Fox]

I do think, like, any time the. If a person's only reason not to do it is 9, 11.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is it? And, like, then I'm like, oh, they probably have literally not thought anything else about it.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Sort of like. Well, that's because that's a. Like, it's just sort of a blanket terrorist.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. Yeah. They just went brown. But I think that the specifics behind me being disappointed in a comic would have to. It would really kind of depend on my relationship. I know Zarna very well. I'm surprised Zarna is doing it, but I'm also not surprised that Zarna is doing it, because Zarna is actually braver than a lot of these people, based on the way that women were allowed to do comedy in India and based on being an outspoken woman. So that. To me, that complicates matters a little bit, because I go, well, actually, Zarna's kind of okay. She's. She was very brave to do what she did to get over here and start a comedy career and talk about things the way she talked about them, especially with her family. So wait a second. I don't know. No one surprised me. There were names on the list where I was like, they're gonna get some shit. This is what happened. I saw the poster, and I was like, oh, people are gonna make fun of them. People are gonna make fun of them. People are really gonna make fun of you. But, like, I don't know if, you know, I don't know if Chris Stefano's fans are gonna make fun of him more than they already do. They already make fun of him.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I mean, it's like a thing you'll see on Reddit, and people will express disappointment, but it's sort of like, we'll see how people talk about it. And if it does feel like. Like it's a. They have a chunk in their special that feels like they checked with.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Then people might be more dubious. I think it was interesting. It's like, so Bill Burr, I don't know if you heard his sort of. His. He talked about going there.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, yeah. And I saw some excerpts today. I mean, I didn't read the full article.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think the main thing is most of them are, like, not aware. The big comedians are ultimately too big to know the specifics of the chatter or whatever. And he was aware that it was different performing in Saudi Arabia than other countries. But his, like. Some people called it a defense, but he didn't know there was anything to defend about it.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So he was just sort of being like. It was nice. Like, his experience was just sort of like, wow. Like, look at us connecting. Like, obviously, we're in different parts of the world and, like, maybe our politics are different or something like that. But, like, look, they're laughing and I'm doing the same joke.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. And he had Malcolm going to Mecca moment.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. What's a little bit, like. So, like, for him, this is sort of the most benevolent take on this festival that is complicated by the nature of their free speech being hindered, which is like. There's sort of like. It's like a world is flat, soft power. Like, oh, if it's like. It's like super early 2000s, like, neocon argument, which is essentially being like, well, like, we're gonna bring Westernization to Saudi Arabia. They will develop because of that.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

It does seem like Saudi Arabia. That is treating Saudi Arabia like little babies.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Aren't intentionally not doing this.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. It's you thinking that your Western ideals haven't already been accounted for and they're not getting anything from this.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes.

[Jay Jerden]

You think you're going over there in a very patronizing and patriarchal way and saying, hey, you guys, isn't. Isn't McDonald's great? And they're like, we love McDonald's now. Where I think that that is. It's naive and gullible to think that's what's going on.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I mean, the thing I wrote down is, like, it is corny that they're all doing it. Right.

[Jay Jerden]

It's like.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, we're so far the point of selling out that we're immune to it. Right. People are just selling out. They're doing ads for whatever. Everyone's doing it.

[Jay Jerden]

Like, listen, everyone's taking bluechew. Okay. If everyone's taking Blue Chew and everybody's dicks are this hard and everyone's doing MMA and everyone's doing testosterone. These men are fucking each other, Jesse. And I think that was at the core of this. If you are doing those things, you're having gay sex accidentally. And that's why they can't go over there, because they're scared.

[Jesse David Fox]

And that's why they're scared. Yeah. I think it is sort of like the. It is a reminder that fans can just be like, that's not cool that you're doing it. Like, that's the feeling, I think.

[Jay Jerden]

And fans will also make fun of you a little bit until you have another great bit that comes out, until you have another slam dunk podcast moment. And then they'll go, oh, you're very funny at this. That's all that's gonna happen. And I don't want anyone to be a baby about that. Cause that will piss people off. If you come back to America and you get all heated that people are cracking jokes about it or that people are asking you, you know, why you aren't wearing a hijab. Guess what? People are gonna make fun of you for a little bit. That's it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. How. How have the comedians talked about it? Is it like. Is it a thing that is for the last few weeks, been just sort of conflicting?

[Jay Jerden]

Okay, so people are being. Okay, so in a post Hinchcliffe at Madison Square Garden for Trump rally comedy, like, landscape, because that's kind of the. That's where I'm gonna draw this distinction. People are being more vocal and. And saying names. Because we had this happen right after Kimmel and those two things. And then, you know, earlier in the summer, we had the Colbert situation. I think now people are starting to be more specific and people are starting to say names more. I like saying names. I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world. If you crack a joke about somebody and you say their name every now and then, you have to be a little shadier. Like, I think the comedy decisions to do this, they should know because they've talked shit about people, that people are talking a little bit shit about them, and the people are talking shit about them. You know, half of them are like, I would have done it. That's the other. Like, there was a. There's a very funny moment about three days ago at the Cellar. I was talking to Joyell, Joel, Nicole Johnson, and I was talking with Simeon Godson and Joyell, and Joelle was like, I can't believe some people are doing it. I was like, I can believe a lot of people are doing it. And then we looked at Simeon, and Joel said, simeon, what's your number to do it? He said, man, give me $20,000. I said, and a brick. He said, and a brick. If I can flip that. He said, man, I might do it just for. He was clearly joking and making a joke about It. But I think that's where a lot of comics are. I don't want anyone's family to go without. I think we all should have multiple houses and cars. But. But I do, I do. I allow people to go over there and do it. As long as when they come back, you get to give them a little shit. That's all. I don't know. Just have fun. Make sure when you come back you can take us being a little shitty towards you and not even mean just making jokes.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I do think it's like if you look at the most public comedians talking about it, it is like the Marc Maron video that went around. It's like he's doing stand up about it.

[Jay Jerden]

It's a bit. Yeah. The same people brought you nine, 11. Yeah. It's a joke.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And it's like, it is interesting that this has been happening for weeks and then it's.

[Jay Jerden]

Oh, it's been happening for months.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And they've been planning. I think they announced it in May. It's like Zach woods makes fun of it.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then like that, you're like, oh, it is interesting that comedy has the ability to sort of like actually break through about the big thing.

[Jay Jerden]

And a front facing video from Zach Woods. And like people, people were very surprised that that's what reminded people everyone was doing it. Cause there were whispers on Reddit. Everyone was kind of making. People were making fun of Bobby Lee and Andrew Santino. Cause their pictures are cartoon on there. So they can. That's not us. There's like a. There's a whispers on Reddit about it, whispers on YouTube about it. All these, you know, podcasts dedicated to comedy we're kind of softly talking about. Stavros had that moment on We Might be Drunk where he like, he laughed. Did you. Have you watched it? There's the funniest part about that is Stavros does manage to get an October 7th joke in there for Sam as a Jewish New Yorker doing that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, yeah. I mean, it is because it is happening. He's performing right around October 7th. It is also the anniversary of the time where Jamal Kishok.

[Jay Jerden]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

And.

[Jay Jerden]

It is sad, but funny. It's so dark. It's incredibly dark humor. But it is so funny because no one expected this to be the result. I mean, whenever Jamal Khashoggi was brutally murdered and dismembered with a bone saw, everyone's like, this is insane. If you would have told all those comics a couple years from now, you'd be like, by the Way, my man. Thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

You'll get to meet that guy.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. You're doing promo video. You're doing Instagram reels for that dude. That's funny.

[Jesse David Fox]

I would say the. The contract, at least that Atsuko posted implied that you were supposed to do promotion for it. And I do not see anyone doing promotion. I think.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, I don't see anyone doing promotion pre promotion for it. I see people doing promo when they're there.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

Kevin Hart did one. Chappelle did the sand hands. You know, I think people are saying good stuff about it and they're probably being interviewed while they're there. And those clips will also come out.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think the. Probably the strongest stance against it was sort of David Cross's. Yeah, I will read some of. But he's like, all of you bitching about cancel culture and freedom of speech and all that shit. Done. You do not get to talk about it ever again. By now, we've all seen the contract you had to sign. You're performing for literally the most oppressive regime on earth. This is truly the definition of blood money. And I do think that was pro. But that's also like, to your point, that's David Cross's. That's how David Cross.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, yeah. And people. You know what people are going to say to that? There are going to be people who say David Cross. Yeah. But then you just say the N word one time. Like there, you know, people. Exactly, exactly. So there are going to be people who figure out a way to be like, yeah, you're calling out this bad stuff, but I'm going to call you your bad stuff. And this is going to be finger pointing. Spider man meme. What I. What I hope is that everyone comes back safe, because that's actually my biggest fear. And it would create an international conflict the likes of which we would be mired in with comedy, with politics, with that region. Everyone needs to come back. Everyone needs to be treated perfectly because that's best case scenario. Everyone needs to come back and then everyone needs to be made fun of a little bit.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how much the line of what they can talk to. Like, can they. They already. If they're already being paid. Yeah, they can't, you know, they're not gonna be sued by the side.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay. Okay. So the funniest thing that I. That myself and like a few people last night did say, we were like, what if the. You know, how jfl, they have like the dirty show. I did a dirty show and I love jfl. But they like the dirty show. There is just like, Whitney Cummings talking. You know, it's like the level of, like, what's considered explicit and taboo and kind of like, this is cray. W. Never get this. That, to me, is also an interesting part of this because so much of standup comedy in America is pushing back against. You'll never hear someone say this, but now, because everyone says everything all the time, you understand how wild we have to be on stage in our set for it to be truly dirty or explicit. There. There's a different bar. The bar is much lower the barrier to, like, being kind of crazy and out there and explicit is different.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I do think of all the people. I mean, any. There's very, very few female comedians that are doing it.

[Jay Jerden]

But there's three, I think.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes. And I think they can make a case of, like, I am. I am making progress by appearing.

[Jay Jerden]

That is, if they just wear a T shirt, they are making progress. Exactly.

[Jesse David Fox]

So there are many comedians have passed. I do think they're. When these stories happen to people outside of comedy, like, there's this sort of tendency to be like, comedy is now all evil and it's all these evil.

[Jay Jerden]

Jesse, Jesse. Do you understand how much I'm inundated with that as a standup comedian who, like, traffics in, like, a bunch of cool spaces? There's so many young queer people who don't think traditional setup punchline comedy or club comedy is good and not. They don't think it's good. They think it's evil.

[Jesse David Fox]

They don't think, like, they don't have criticism of it as an art form. Like, maybe I do. They criticize it as, like, a. A societal invention that is, like, bringing down democracy.

[Jay Jerden]

They think that all of our goals is to, like, be at the mothership forever.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Which is like. So the people have said. Mike Rubigla said he said no Oscar post contract. Shane Gillis publicly said no. Because I do think he's probably the most famous person that people assumed went, yeah, I am sure if there is a comedian who is very famous. They said no. Like, they have not announced it, but I would bet all of my money.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

That John Mulaney said no. Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

I.

[Jesse David Fox]

How they're not. If there's just no way he's not being asked.

[Jay Jerden]

Exactly. John Mulaney said Probably said no. Shane Gillis said he said no twice.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, yeah. I think his thing was, which I. I believe he said, stop off making me offers. I. I don't want to say yes. The Nimesh thing was really interesting. I think, like, Nimesh had a fairly, like, his take on why he first said yes, which is not the same equivalency. But he's like, oh, I. I can do jokes about Gaza there that I would be nervous to do here. Like, okay. And then he's. Then. Then he explained he couldn't get over the fact that there are Indian people that are essentially in de facto slavery.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah. Yeah. That's what. Well, because, like, people. Some people don't know that, but. But there are a lot of people in the global south who work in Qatar and who work in Dubai and who work in some of the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia, and they're brought over there to help build things and construct things, and when you're there, they take your passport away until your job is done, and there's no guarantee you get that passport back. So, I mean, when Tim Dillon, like, made that joke about slavery and then they kind of booted him for it. He's not wrong. Wrong. It is kind of like de facto slavery. Some people are like, no, it's indentured servitude, which is a crazy argument in 2025. Making that argument is worse.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I do think it's interesting. I do think, like, the fact that even the people who are. The people who are defending, going with specifics, were not allowed to come is like, is. Is really one of the more telling things, which is like, oh, you. You can't even acknowledge that.

[Jay Jerden]

Why.

[Jesse David Fox]

The specifics of the false equivalency or the equivalency that you're making about the ethics of it.

[Jay Jerden]

You can't even make the. That the prince lets you say whatever you want, but the rest of y', all, the fans, the spectators, the patrons, if y' all say what y' all want to say, have fun. But I can get up here and say whatever I want. You can't even make that joke, which should be the joke you should be able to make, but you can't, because, as per the contract, from what we've seen, you can't talk about the royal family that way.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It is interesting because it must be so strange to be a comedian and who. Any comedian, when they're doing a live show, they're going to address the sort of vibe of the. The thing. The unspoken thing of the world.

[Jay Jerden]

You know, when you do a college show.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

They bring. They say, hey, don't talk about this. If there's a thing they don't want you to talk about at that School, they will be like, don't talk about this.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then I feel like most comedians.

[Jay Jerden]

Talk about it because all of us talk about it the minute we get on stage. Guess they said back there because the.

[Jesse David Fox]

Audience is wondering if they're gonna talk about it. And if you don't address it, the set's weird. So it must be so weird for all these comedians being like, the thing that I know I cannot talk about. I would feel scared if I brought up any of the things that make it the same. Then it's like, it must be a weird set. And imagine they're sort of like. But it. You know, it's not unlike corporate gigs.

[Jay Jerden]

So this is what I would have done to get around that. I would have pulled a Barack and sent a drone, and the drone would have done my set. That that's what I would do. But, you know, I'm thinking five steps, I'm playing 4D chess.

[Jesse David Fox]

You're getting prepared for Riyadh.

[Jay Jerden]

I'm getting prepared for Riyadh. Riyadh 2. Electric boogaloo.

[Jesse David Fox]

What does it say? Like, what does it mean? Like, it's been an interesting year for the free speech.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Especially this happening with the Jimmy Kimmel thing.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Because I do think it's like, I remember Jimmy Kimmel. Well, I'll ask the question first, then I will sort of take my take on free speech. Well, like, where does it leave now? You know, this will happen by the time this comes out. It is about to wrap up. Oh. The thing I wanted to note actually, before this, which is. I don't know the specifics of it, but. So I'm going to speculate. You can speculate, but by the time it comes out, Jessica Kirsten has come back and has regretted it and said she's donating the money.

[Jay Jerden]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

Hell, yeah. I don't know specifically why she regretted. We probably have some ideas of why she. But I do think I'm very curious about what the response will be like this. The sense was that. But she already got the money. So whether you, like, give us the money back, you're not allowed to donate it to LGBTQ charities. Because if they all did that, then it'll be like, actually, what do we think if they.

[Jay Jerden]

If everyone donated to charities that helped marginalized people here, that helped free speech here, that helped journalists here, everyone will go, we tricked them. We pulled off a heist. That would be the feeling, and you would be celebrated. But to do that, you kind of have to be humbled and say, hey, I know I did this thing. As penance, I'm gonna do this second thing just to make sure that y' all know I don't. I love half a million dollars, but I'm okay with, like, a little less than half a million dollars. If you make $500,000 and you give away $100,000 of that $500,000, everyone's gonna be like, that's good on you. Everyone's gonna be happy for you.

[Jesse David Fox]

I do think that's. That gets back to the fundamental point of, like, you don't want your fans to think you're doing this for the money. Yeah. And most people don't. I think, honestly, a lot of the comedians that have done it are not the most craven comedians, but some of them are.

[Jay Jerden]

But that's the joke that everyone. I mean, I'll say it. That's the joke that all of the people who make fun of Tom Segura are gonna make. They're gonna say, oh, this is another kind of like, you need this money. Everyone's always out for money. And it's as a comic, as a peer, you don't want to pocket watch. You want to be like, do whatever. You know? But part of the weirdness of comedy right now is that no one is transparent about money. So everyone has to do all these things to make sure that they're making money. No one says, okay. No one says, the acquisition deal is $200,000 for two years, and then there's a renewal. Because everyone wants to be like, no, I got a million dollars. You didn't get a million dollars. I know who gets a million dollars for those acquisition deals. You know what I'm saying?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Jay Jerden]

So now money is involved. And because Tim Dillon kind of talked about money, Nimesh kind of talked about money, people talked about how much Dave is making now, because it's a money conversation. If you critique it, comics get to say, hey, don't talk about that money. That's personal. That's private. That's disgusting. How dare you bring that up? So that's like the other kind of pesky fly in the ointment is that money makes people very uncomfortable when you talk about it and when you get specific about it in comedy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I do think probably a lot of these comedians might be more uncomfortable, people talking about their money than talking about how they're a bad person.

[Jay Jerden]

Yes. Because they'll say they're a bad person all day, but they will not say how much money they make from a gig.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Where do you think this. What do you think the lasting impact of this will have on the perception of comedy or, you know, do you think it does anything? Do you think it's just furthering whatever narrative that exists?

[Jay Jerden]

I think. I think it's twofold. I think people are gonna make fun of them. I think people are also gonna look back and be like, woo, that was crazy. That's kind of crazy. Y' all did that. Y' all gonna do it again. And I think the other thing that we'll see maybe in the future, I have the faith and the sort of optimism to think there will be people and kids in Saudi Arabia who were happy they got to see American style standup comedy, and that might make them do comedy. So that will be. That will be someone's comedy origin story that they. Dave Chappelle, they saw Hannibal, they saw Burr, they saw Louis, they said, oh, I have to do this now. I didn't know I could do this, but I wanna do it in Saudi Arabia. I wanna do it in Arabic. I wanna do it and I'm queer. I wanna do it and I'm a woman. That's also what's gonna happen. Those would be like the three lasting things. But the most immediate thing is people come back and people gonna give you a little shit. I don't know why. When people. Okay. Cause this is what happens. I've done fouling three times now. Whenever I say, oh, you can say Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon as a way to bring me up on a show. If the host makes fun of it, I go, you got me. Yeah, I like Dua Lipa playing with puppies. Okay, you got me. So what? I'm old. I'm 37. I be on that show sometimes. I wanna meet Questlove, I wanna meet black Thought. But I let people make fun of me because that's the agreement. And then I tell my joke.

[Jesse David Fox]

I do think it's interesting because I think this, coming after Jimmy Kimmel, it's really revealing what free speech meant insomnia. As for, like, a long time, everyone was just sort of yelling free speech at each other. Free speech doesn't mean this. There's sort of these debates about who actually cares about who doesn't care about it. And the Jimmy Kimmel thing was useful because it's like the first response was, where are all these free speech comedians now?

[Jay Jerden]

That was. That's what I said.

[Jesse David Fox]

You did say this.

[Jay Jerden]

And. And Mike Birbiglia said it too.

[Jesse David Fox]

And a lot of those comedians were like, we don't like it.

[Jay Jerden]

And they waited and some of those comedians waited a week. Joe Rogan waited a week because he was elk hunting, which is what I say when I'm cruising, But he was elk hunting. And then he was like, this seems.

[Jesse David Fox]

Bad, but a lot of. A lot more of them did, but some didn't. And you go, oh, cool. That's the divide.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Some of these comedians, actually, free speech is important to them.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And some were always just sort of in the tank, and you can kind of get a divide. Then I think this is another time where it's just like, okay, who are the ones who really cared about free speech and who are the ones who are like, yeah, I meant free speech. Like, I want to be able to say whatever I want.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, that's. To me, the art form is I get to say whatever I want.

[Jay Jerden]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

But actually, I just essentially, truly was. I don't want to be criticized. And it's like, free speech was never the thing. I think it's like, we're now getting a new list of, like, who are the free speech comedians? And who are this other group of people?

[Jay Jerden]

And I'll say this. This is maybe a hot take. I think that people are going to make fun of you for having J.D. vance and Donald Trump on your podcast forever. I think people are going to make fun of you for doing Riyadh Comedy Festival for a little bit. If you. Theo von had J.D. vance on that podcast twice. And now today, he's like, I can't believe that they don't like immigrants. My dad was an immigrant from Nicaragua. What? People are going to make fun of him for forever. For that. Forever. Forever. People are not gonna make fun of the people who did Riyadh forever. They're gonna be like, that was crazy. But there is a difference. I will say there are levels to how much you're gonna be ridiculed.

[Jesse David Fox]

Thank you so much.

[Jay Jerden]

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jesse.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz, and Anne Victoria Clarke. Music composed by Brandon McFarlane. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox, and you can follow me esseidavidfox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York Magazine. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.