Draft Episode for Jul 24, 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Good One: A Podcast About Jokes – Marc Maron Episode (July 24, 2025)

Good One: A Podcast About Jokes, hosted by Jesse David Fox, features an in-depth conversation with stand-up comedian Marc Maron. This episode delves into Maron's latest HBO special, his perspectives on the current state of comedy, the political climate's impact on humor, and the impending conclusion of his long-running podcast, WTF. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and notable moments from the episode.

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1. Introduction and Personal Anecdotes

The episode begins with Jesse David Fox introducing Marc Maron and setting the stage for their conversation. Maron shares a humorous yet relatable story about a recent trip to the vet with his cat, Sam.

Marc Maron [02:26]: "Well, day before yesterday I had to take my cat Sam to the vet for just a checkup. It's always a fraught bit of business to get a cat in a carrier..."

This anecdote serves as an icebreaker, highlighting Maron's ability to blend personal experiences with humor.

2. Discussion on Marc Maron's HBO Special: Panicked

Fox commends Maron on his new HBO special, Panicked, praising its fearless approach and the seamless blend of humor with serious commentary.

Jesse David Fox [04:36]: "I thought you were really on. The rhythm of it, and just sort of like. It’s just like the one that's, like the hard jokes and the waiter. They really hit really, really well."

Maron elaborates on the special's production design, particularly his collaboration with production designer Mark Jana to create an intimate and visually compelling atmosphere through elements like Kintsugi-inspired lighting.

Marc Maron [05:37]: "I was very obsessed with that theater... everything sort of has the themes aligned."

3. The State of Comedy and Anti-Woke Movement

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the intersection of comedy and politics, especially the rise of anti-woke comedians. Maron expresses concern over comedians who push back against progressive movements, often at the expense of marginalized communities.

Marc Maron [17:29]: "I hope all the anti woke comics are happy about pushing this all through. The big question is when will they shut up about trans people, intellectually challenged people, immigrants, the disabled and minorities?" [01:30]

He discusses how this movement has inadvertently supported the erosion of protective policies for vulnerable groups, leading to a cultural shift towards Christian nationalism and diminished tolerance.

Maron critiques specific comedians like Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, highlighting how their platforms have been co-opted to advance divisive agendas.

Marc Maron [23:10]: "They are being used. They are being used to spearhead it culturally."

4. Evolution and Conclusion of the WTF Podcast

Maron reflects on the impending end of his podcast, WTF, after 16 years. He shares his reasons, emphasizing exhaustion and the oversaturation of content in the digital age.

Marc Maron [43:00]: "If we're just doing it because we do it, is that a reason to keep doing it?... Having a body of work that lives as opposed to an ongoing thing that becomes less a body of work and just a drive."

He contemplates the legacy of WTF, acknowledging its impact on the podcasting landscape and the personal toll it has taken.

Marc Maron [47:21]: "We are tired, we have done great work. But it will be interesting to see what happens when I have that world freed up."

5. Acting Ventures and Creative Challenges

The conversation shifts to Maron's foray into acting, discussing his roles in projects like Stick and In Memoriam. He shares behind-the-scenes insights into challenging scenes, such as those requiring deep emotional responses.

Marc Maron [70:59]: "We both end up crying and, and, and, you know, it was good, you know, and it played pretty well on screen."

Maron highlights the difficulties of transitioning from stand-up comedy to acting, especially when portraying emotionally charged characters.

6. Reflections on Comedy's Evolution and Future Directions

Maron and Fox discuss the transformation of the comedy industry, drawing parallels between the alternative comedy scene of the 1990s and today's digital content-driven landscape. Maron emphasizes the need for a modern version of alternative comedy to counteract the divisive trends fueled by social media algorithms.

Jesse David Fox [40:51]: "What we need is a modern version of what alternative comedy was at the time..."

He reminisces about venues like Luna Lounge and the unique freedoms they offered comedians, contrasting them with the current environment where content is often dominated by short-form, algorithm-driven performances.

7. Closing Segments and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with a "Laughing Round," where Maron shares favorite jokes, discusses unsuccessful attempts, and reflects on memorable interactions with legendary comedians. Noteworthy moments include:

• Favorite Joke:

  Marc Maron [89:24]: "There was a joke about a grandfather and his grandson being swept away by a wave..."

• Best Time Bombing:

  Marc Maron [104:13]: "I took a gig... in Australia... my confidence was diminishing... I relapsed. It was brutal."

• Comedian Mount Rushmore:

  Marc Maron [99:26]: "I would put Richard Pryor, Rodney Dangerfield, Bill Hicks, and Maria Bamford."

Maron concludes with reflections on the impact of his work and the importance of authentic emotional expression in comedy and acting.

Marc Maron [88:19]: "It's a testimony to the type of work that Brendan and I did."

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Key Takeaways

• Authenticity in Comedy: Maron emphasizes the importance of genuine emotional expression and the risks of commodifying humor to fit prevailing cultural narratives.

• Political Responsibility: The conversation underscores the role of comedians as cultural commentators and the implications of aligning with or opposing political movements.

• Legacy of WTF Podcast: Maron acknowledges the significant contribution of WTF to the podcasting world and reflects on its conclusion as a means to preserve its integrity.

• Future of Alternative Comedy: There is a call for a resurgence of alternative comedy that fosters creative freedom and resists the divisive tendencies amplified by digital platforms.

Notable Quotes

• Marc Maron on Anti-Woke Comedians:

  "History is being erased and rewritten to support Christian nationalism, creativity, tolerance and the path to equality squashed." [01:30]

• On Ending WTF Podcast:

  "If we're just doing it because we do it, is that a reason to keep doing it?" [43:00]

• Reflecting on Acting Challenges:

  "We both end up crying and, and, and, you know, it was good." [71:01]

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This episode of Good One: A Podcast About Jokes offers a comprehensive look into Marc Maron's multifaceted career, his views on contemporary comedy, and his personal journey. Listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of humor as a tool for social commentary and the evolving landscape of comedic expression.

Transcript

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[Marc Maron]

I'm going to read what I wrote. Yes, I hope all the anti woke comics are happy about pushing this all through. The big question is when will they shut up about trans people, intellectually challenged people, immigrants, the disabled and minorities? I mean, they won. The policies they they were supporting, whether they knew it or not are happening. All the language and law that protected the vulnerable and marginalized and gave them a leg up have been destroyed. History is being erased and rewritten to support Christian nationalism, creativity, tolerance and the path to equality squashed. I hope it was all worth it. So you can say the R word again.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer at Vulture and author of Comedy Book. My guest this week is Marc Maron, stand up comedian and host of the WTF podcast. We talk about said WTF podcast, which is ending after 16 years later this year. Also, we discussed Mark's newest HBO special, Panicked. And as is always the case when Mark and I get together, we talk about the state of comedy and comedy podcasts and how both relate to where politics is in this country right now. Let's say Mark has some notes. So here is Marc Marin. Thank you for joining me.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, nice to be here. Good to see you.

[Jesse David Fox]

Good to see you. So what is the funniest thing that happened to you this week?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I guess day before yesterday I had to take my cat Sam to the vet for just a checkup. And it's always, it's, it's a very you Know, fraught bit of business to, you know, get a cat in a carrier and get in a car with a cat and, you know, you know, you got to get your mind around it the night before and, you know, and then open the crate the night before. And then you got, like, one shot getting them in there. And then. And I didn't get them in, and it was like, oh, man. I thought I was gonna have to call the vet and be like, I'm not today. I couldn't get him. But Sam's stupid. He's like the dumbest of the cats, though. The most adventurous but kind of dim. So, like, you know, 20 minutes later, I think he had completely forgotten that I tried to get him in the crate. So I was able to get him into the crate. But then, you know, then you're in the car and you don't know what's going to happen. I'm just trying to, you know, calm him down. You know, he's, like, crying, and my cats will. In the crate almost every time or pee. And I. And I thought we were getting away with it. And then, like, you know, midway through, I smelled it. I'm like, God damn it. And I had to pull over. I had no paper towels. I had to, like, get the out of the cage just so I'd have to deal with the stink with my bare hands and throw it into a parking lot. Then get back into the car, and he's just crying and all fucked up. And then we get to the vet, and he, like, he gets out of the cage. He's like, oh, this is nice. Like, he's, like, completely calm. Calmer than my other cats, just kind of looking around, hanging out with the vet, but, like, you know, and the vet's like, yeah, we don't need to do blood tests. He seems fine. I'm like, we could have done that on the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just went through something, and then.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, do it again.

[Marc Maron]

Well, then go home. On the way home, he's completely docile, but I'm worked up, you know, so, you know, I shit in the car and I'm okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

So, you know, what I've like is we've. You and I have gone to a rhythm where we've talked about every year or so for the last, like, five or six years. And often our conversations, you know, talk about your common but also the state of comedy.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And your special has a lot of commentary on the sort of state of com.

[Marc Maron]

Do you like the special?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I thought it was great.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, thanks.

[Jesse David Fox]

I thought you were really on.

[Marc Maron]

Keyed in. Yeah, I feel that, like, there was no. No fear.

[Jesse David Fox]

The rhythm of it, and just sort of like. It just. It's just like the. The one that's, like the hard jokes and the waiter. They really hit really, really well.

[Marc Maron]

It was. There's a lot of stuff in there, dude.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

It's crazy. When I look at it a lot there you. There is a journey. You know what I mean? It's like. Anyways, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how.

[Jesse David Fox]

No, it's nice that, like. Do you feel. Have you felt as happy about a special after you put it out?

[Marc Maron]

Well, you know, the last few specials have come together. Okay. But I. I felt that something happened in this one where usually my brain, you know, finds something to lock into, be anxious about, but I'd work the hell out of that stuff, and I'd really kind of trimmed it down. I do what I usually do. I leave a little space. And the week before, a couple of lines came in.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Were delivered to me by whatever, and they really were exciting to. To do. But more than that, you get this feeling that you really can't reinvent the wheel with a comedy special. No matter what anyone does to it. It's still just a guy on stage talking. But I had this production designer that did a very interesting thing. I was very obsessed with that theater. I was going to do it at Town hall again, but I decided I didn't want to because it's too wide and too big. So I was like, we have to find a place that seats 8,900 in New York. Is there anything? So they found the Bam Harvey, which was kind of cost prohibitive. It was expensive. But I was obsessed with the. You know, we went in there to look at it, and it was totally empty. And there was a couple of things. Like, there's no stage there. You know, the floor, it just goes right to the first row. And I was like, all right, I might be able to work with that. It seems like it could be intimate. It's the right amount of people. But the back wall to me was just spectacular. It was the actual back wall of the theater. Just you could see all the years. It's over 100 years old, and it had sort of a patina to it and different colors from maybe different stage paint or whatever. And I said, that wall's got to be part of it. And my production designer, Mark Jana, was just like, yeah, I can see it. I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking Kintsugi. And I'm like, I don't know what that is. I look it up. It's that it's this ancient art of Japanese ceramic repair where they use gold. And I'm like, okay, I don't know what you're thinking, but that sounds great. So, like, all of the lights were with these Kintsugi lines, which is a way of repairing broken vessels. And, you know, and I am a broken vessel, so. And that with the wall. And then in the last two bits, which were fairly specifically, you know, grief and trauma driven, you know, he faded up those Kintsugi lines. Like, you know, this is all poetic, but I felt that I was organically in symbiosis with the space through the production design. So I found that kind of exciting. And the fact that I had no anxiety about anything.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I do think this special that reminded me of how in End Times, fun how Lyn Shelton, you're the director of that special and your girlfriend at the time, who unexpectedly passed a couple years into, a couple months into Covid. How she shot that special was a different visual metaphor. She shot you as a sort of like raving lunatic. She shot you through.

[Marc Maron]

But it is close up, like very intimate.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. But neither are like a conceptual special. But it's just sort of little things that sort of have the themes aligned.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. There is something you can do with it, you know, but I just thought that using that theater, which is kind of in a maintained state of disrepair, it's kind of a ruin, but it's got a lot of charm that it was never renovated.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the whole vibe of it came together through the production design and that wall, like, I don't even know if people will really register that that's the wall. It's. To me, it looked like a Rothko painting. I'm like, it's got to be the main part of it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I need to rewatch it for that.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's fascinating. The other thing is that you talk about it realizing that in this, you talk about in the special realizing, like, you can entertain people. Like entertainment is part of the job that can a stand up can do. And can you talk about a time in your career as a stand up where you were not entertaining people? What was it like and was it mean then to entertain?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I, I always. I always knew I had to get laughs. And I think people generally frame that as the entertainment of comedy. So I, I knew I was engaging, I knew I was funny. And. But there's also these muscles that, you know, I can work and that I have, if I have a, A something that has a certain amount of momentum. But like, I realized during doing the material for this special that because of my progressive nature that the audiences I was experiencing on the road were like minded. And it started to feel like community service because this president had been elected and these were frightened people, rightfully so, who were isolated in their anger and their fear. And, and so 8, 900 people coming out these shows. It was like kind of like, okay, we're together. I felt that. So there was some part of it where. And I had to figure out the tone of the opening. 10 or 15. It's probably 15, where I address, you know, cultural reality and the political reality where, you know, coming through it and getting into that like minded space and, you know, not pulling any punches with the progressives either, that, that there was no solution. And so, like, I think it was kind of a revelation to me that, you know, because fundamentally I think, like, well, why, you know, it's like, why are we, why, why are we being entertained? We're in trouble. And then the sort of realization that, well, if everyone knows we're in trouble, then, you know, maybe entertainment would be nice.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

If you can't fix it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, so, so there was that break in the special where when I say that, where I'm like, you know, maybe I can just be entertaining and I say, I don't know if I got into it to do that. I think I got into it to be a comedian, which is fundamentally a job of an entertainer. But I thought it was about me expressing myself and my point of view and how I saw the world and all that stuff. But I chose comedy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Which is an entertainment, but I really felt like I made a choice after I kind of set the table with where we were all at and got everybody, you know, comfortable, as comfortable as you can get with all that and get some laughs around the dark reality that I'm like, I'm now going to entertain you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I had that very long, very laugh heavy, you know, story about evacuating with the cats and then on into the rat problem in my house. That was just like, it's like a 15 minute piece, but it's laugh. It's like, it's hammer. And I think that all the specials I've done in the last or the last three, I'm very in control of the craft and I think in all of them that I'm very conscious of the segments in the special and also that it was kind of a flex to me, you know, like, I could do comedy like that all the time, but it is kind of exhausting, and, you know. You know, it's a different type of. It's not. It's my comedy, and I've always done that stuff, but I thought to frame it where there's nothing heavy here.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, but. But it is my. My character, me struggling with this thing. And so, like, I just see it as this. Like, you know, this is just a fun bit, and then we'll get back to the heavy stuff.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so funny that you essentially reverse how every other comedian might think of their special, which is like, okay, if I give them 45 minutes of entered of that. Yeah, I can maybe have five minutes.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

We're like, okay, If I do 30 minutes of really getting into it.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Have some laughs for 15 minutes, and then we're gonna get back into. Talk about dementia and dying.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it is of me, and I think the things weave together, but there is a certain point where you can kind of play with your craft in a way. I'm not gonna do characters, but I know how to do comedy, and I can do these. And I've done all the different kinds of comedy, but that whole piece coming together like that, evacuating with the cats and then the rats and then the callback within that, you know, just sort of evolved, you know, on stage, and I realized, like, this is a big piece, and I've done them before. Yeah, that. You know, that the thing where I thought the, you know, the plane was going to go down, I did on John Oliver, you know, that, you know, is this what I want to be watching? Yeah. I was watching the. I don't know, the. Was it the Woodstock movie? You know, and then, you know, that. That realization that what's at the core of me when I'm terrified is like, well, what did I say? Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me? Like, I can't remember, but there have been these pieces in my life where I realized, like, I could do comedy like that all the time, and it's pretty entertaining, but there is. The risk is limited.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, it is just for laughs and people relating to it. But the risk of being revealing or taking on what people see as the dark elements of what our psyches are, what our lives are, is a different challenge than just getting laughs.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I think at this point, you're like, I can do it. And this is Remind people I can do it. And there's something like, I mean it's the same thing like modern art, which is like a lot of the people who do modern art can draw, but the point is they can do it, but they're deciding to do this as a way of making a statement of what they think art should be. I think this special, like a lot of your last few specials had been a statement of like, this is what I think comedy should be. This is what actually is challenging.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I think a good example is. So in that first chunk you have the joke about the R word.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you summarize the basic bit and sort of where it came from?

[Marc Maron]

Well, it really came from the idea that, you know, you could justify a vote for the worst of things because it services one thing you want, you know, without foresight or without really taking into consideration the consequences. So the whole arc of that bit of, you know, just, you know, 50 million people are like, I kind of like the guy, you know. And then it just evolved into the idea of the anti woke angle of, you know, I'm voting the way I'm going to vote because, you know, I, I can't, you know, I don't have freedom of speech, which is a, it's a false premise. Yeah. There was cultural pushback and you know, it got a little weird with the canceling, but I really think it would have found its level and language would have evolved as it does. You know, there's a lot of things we don't say anymore out of respect for people who, we live among. Democracy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So, but that's not the way it went. So the anti woke thing, it was just about like, all right, you voted this way because of this one issue. But along with that, you know, comes everything that we're living through and was it worth it? And then calling back the R word was just a natural way to go.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then I addressed that there might be people in the audience that are still uncomfortable with these. But then I kind of addressed the kind of.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Use it as a way, the sensitivity of, of kind of like minutiae issue driven progressive thought.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Without a, A, a true kind of umbrella of, of unified political thought.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about each of those elements because I do think you do a really good job of using a good joke structure of setting up certain way and then going to then like get through all elements of this argument. And I, I want to specifically focus on first the, the idea of the anti woke comic and, and driving and you wrote something after the ICE raids in la.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And the bombing of Iran.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

That if you. I printed out. I was wondering if you could read that kind of gets at exactly that.

[Marc Maron]

I, I'm going to read what I wrote.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes.

[Marc Maron]

I hope all the anti woke comics are happy about pushing this all through. The big question is when will they shut up about trans people, intellectually challenged people, immigrants, the disabled and minorities? I mean they won. The policies they were supporting, whether they knew it or not are happening. All the language and law that protected the vulnerable and marginalized and gave them a leg up have been destroyed. History is being erased and rewritten to support Christian nationalism, creativity, tolerance and the path to equality squashed. I hope it was all worth it. So you can say the R word again. Yeah. Now look, and I talk about in the special, like they didn't think they were doing that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean it's this, we're all selfish. You know, they thought that their fight was really about free speech, which wasn't on a constitutional basis. So the entire premise of we're being denied our free speech was based in the, the active kind of movement of democracy to move forward.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't think they ever saw it like that because they're sort of like, come on, you know, it's just words that you can't play Lenny Bruce anymore when, you know, when the intention is not what Lenny Bruce was trying to do. You know, Lenny with the, with the word thing that he did, you know, was trying, was striving for equality in it where they're just saying like, it's fun to say these words and like, you know, I don't know how they, they know I don't mean it. It's like. But that's the real issue is normalizing the language again.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. When you, I think some people, I know exactly who you mean or generally who you mean when you say anti woke comics. Either you can say specific names or what do you think of or who do you think of or what, what are you imagining for, for people maybe are less familiar with.

[Marc Maron]

Well, no, I mean like there's a lot of it, you know, there, there's, there's the wormy way to handle it like Bill Maher, you know, where you're like, hey, you know, I'm as liberal as the next guy, you know. But you know, the liberals have gone too far with this thing. You know, people are getting, you know, canceled or whatever. But those were corporate decisions based on, you know, I think a misread of the public sentiment, you know, in honoring which it was good that they did, you know, the kind of, the kind of fragility of minority communities, you know, based in ethnicity or gender, sexual gender stuff. So you know, that whole idea, I just. And you know, Rogan and Hinchcliffe and you know, just a lot of these people just locked into this anti Woke thing. But now, you know, the government, which is for all practical, you know, good intensive purposes, is an authoritarian government and we have a fairly dominant fascistic culture. So they're using the same language, which is anti woke, to dismantle all progressive institutions. And whether you like it or not, or whether that's not what you signed up for, you tied yourself to that horse. Right. And it's not even a matter of unforgivable, it just is what it is. So you can backpedal all you want, but this is the reality is that, you know, democracy was squashed because of, you know, the policy now of using anti Woke to dismantle the liberal democratic state is something you didn't shut up about.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Maybe it wasn't the same thing. Oh, I just wanted to say the art. Yeah. So that's who I'm talking about. And look, you know, I think a lot of them were just like wanted to land on the side where they could earn a living. You know, it's challenging, you know, to just. And in that thing, it's just, it's at a point now where it's like you don't have the victim position anymore. You have the dominant position. So why keep kicking? Because it's just, it's hackneyed that, you know, you walk through a comedy club where you go to some. In certain cities or where it's like there's a prerequisite to do a trans joke. There's a prerequisite to do an R word joke. There's a prerequisite to push the edge in a very non risky way.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

To not push a boundary, but act like you are just. But just.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And act like, you know, your voice is, you know, is somehow dangerous. There's nothing less dangerous. It's boring.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. To say what people want you to say is not, not doing those particular people.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But you know, it really becomes a point of, you know, does comedy, you know, speak out for the American idea?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and certainly a lot of the comics that, you know, I grew up liking that there's always been a few at any given time who were actually kind of, you know, pushing that envelope.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Really, it's usually just, you know, clowns and jokesters. And I think a lot of those guys that do it are clowns and jokesters and they're not sophisticated political thinkers or, or not really principled in, in their feelings about what's happening in America, if they know it at all.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, I think the thing that I, when I read that and, and it's something that I think you bring up a lot, is that whether they know it or not, that they were being manipulated. I mean, that was the thing that I, when I watched being used.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, I don't even know if they were being manipulated because they were just, you know, they were co opted.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, which is different than being manipulated. Right?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, no one was, you know, trying to convince them to do this, but, you know, once they were doing it, they fed the fire and it fit the ideological talking points of the right and the extreme right and they were just co opted and used to spearhead it culturally.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I mean, it was a thing that when I saw Trump on Andrew Schultz's podcast, on Theo Vaughn, on Joe Rogan, I did think of the thing that you would say which is like, just for whatever personal benefit they think they get by having them on, they're just letting they're being a mouthpiece for a person even if they wanted to or not.

[Marc Maron]

Well, they're humanizing a monster, which, you know, look, there's been plenty of monsters, all right? But the fact that that guy comes from show business and that these guys are like, this will be wild, man, to have the guy running for president, like, and, you know, and he's. Yeah, and talk to him about coke and stuff, you know, I think it was as shallow as that, you know, because I don't think that these guys frame him that way that, you know, and I have a hard time with, you know, even central centrist Democrats and some of the left as sort of framing this as a two party problem. It's an authoritarian problem. And until somebody starts speaking in that language on a big platform in a real way, that there's no two party solution to authoritarianism. So what happens now? And that's just the way I feel. But the truth is it's all based on how many people can adapt and how many people are okay in their life to whether they even give a shit. And it's very difficult for anyone to get, you know, information that either they don't doubt or that isn't, you know, totally biased or, or, or bullshit. So I know there's A. There's deeper levels of, of problems. But, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was really like you, you know, some of the pushback is like when I said, you know, have a white supremacist on their podcast, it's like, hey, he's never claimed to be a white supremacist. He doesn't have to claim anything. I mean, like, this idea, it's like, well, he's not a racist. I'm like, do two clicks of research.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Look at his cabinet. You know, I mean, and look, yeah, I'm no bleeding heart, but it's just like after a certain point, just to make sure that I have a sense of what is reality.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

On a political level and on a cultural level, you know, I have to say these things and there's a lot of people, you know, in my position that, like, they're afraid to talk. So if people who are like minded or think the way I do or lean that way, you know, if they can't speak in their lives, I've got to figure out how to make it funny in a way that isn't just, you know, snarky jokes about Trump because that stuff falls short. You know what I mean? It's, it's just, it's. It's a fleeting defense.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, I think that a good example of that in this vein is the joke in the special about Theo Vaughn having Hitler on his podcast. Can you talk about having the idea and then what it's like performing that in rooms where there might be Theo on fans, where other comedians might.

[Marc Maron]

Look, man. You know, I'm noticing now and even during when I was doing it, you know, this is a culture, you know, driven by the thrill of like, oh, shit, you know, and so there's some of that, but I can't even. And I've gotten actually better at doing the impressions since the special. Well, the idea of that joke was sort of, kind of came about with the, the, the idea of the historical distance we have from Hitler. And that was a personal story and it was an interesting observation that you can, you know, I can watch a six hour documentary about Hitler and everything he did and just kind of be half engaged with it. But the moment I find out that he killed his dog, then I'm like, what kind of monster? You know, so, so that was, that was humanizing him.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

To say Hitler is a fucking dick. No one says that. I mean, it's not only that. It's not just that. It's a given to say it to Say Hitler was a fucking dick is humanizing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes. Humanizing the other way. Not humanizing as in like, oh, he's just like us, but humanizing. Like people can do these things.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like people, He's a monster. He was evil, but you know, what a dick, you know, so, so that was interesting to me on a language level. But then the Theo Vaughn thing, I must have just came during an improv. I was just improvising it and you know. Cause it, you know, it just hit me that that would, you know, that that would be funny and probably be true. And you know, the more I do the bit I, I don't like. My concern was I was, you know, I was indicting, you know, Theo as, as an anti Semite, which I, I, I, I don't know that he is or not. But, but the tag to it is, you know, I get it. It doesn't necessarily imply it. It would just be what he would say.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

One way or the other, he'd be like, I got Jewish friends. Yeah. But I get it, you know, like, it's not, I don't think it's as deep an indictment as it could be read.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I would, I would wonder if he would have a sense of humor about it. I don't know.

[Jesse David Fox]

I guess we're going to find out soon enough.

[Marc Maron]

Maybe. Those guys, like don't engage me much.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you know, I don't know if what I do really lands in that camp.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I think they're, you know, they're at another level financially and fan wise and everywhere else. But, you know, Tim Dillon has told me that like. No, they know.

[Jesse David Fox]

What do you make of. So, like, you are friends with people or friendly with people who are like one step removed from these.

[Marc Maron]

No, I know these guys and I, you know, for just my nature as a person and as a communicator and whatever. Look, there's always been monsters in comedy and there's always been people you disagree with. You know, I just felt that, you know, given that we're not really dealing in that world anymore and that there are people with real power who are indulging, you know, real evil that, you know, you can't be quiet about that. And it's not player hating.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, it's, it's cultural commentary in a tribalized world. So. But you know, if I saw Tony. Yeah. He'd be like, hey, man. You know, like. And I'd be like, what's up? You know, I, you know, I'm not going to be like, you know, I'm not talking to that guy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know what I mean? I, you know, I know we're still peers and that whatever shots I'm taking. There's a weird kind of, you know, thing in the community where it's like, why you got to, you know, bust on, you know, your peers? I'm like, well, they represent something. And, you know, this goes back to a joke I years ago that I did about Adam Sam.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, I wrote that down.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. That, like, you know, I mocked, you know, because I felt that that, that joke that I did on Conan about, you know, the Adam Sandler fan on the skateboard or whatever, you know, was an indictment of a youth culture that I thought was inane. But Sandler, you know, took it personally and I, it was really this idea. Yeah, but you're a cultural icon.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So you're not beyond. It's not even reproach. It's just that you, we have to be able to talk about you. I know we are in the same business, but, you know, it really wasn't meant as a dig towards you, but, you know, it becomes impossible to separate and you just gotta take the hit.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I mean, I think you also with that joke and then I think you have an understanding that of where comedy is in the culture that I think a lot of comedians delude themselves about, oh, we're just jokers up here. No one cares what we're doing, what we're doing. It don't matter all the fuck around where. Like, I think from that Sandler bit on, you were always like, this is mass culture. It clearly presidents go on your podcast for a reason. You can't laugh it off.

[Marc Maron]

And I think people running for president, people running for president, it's a very different game.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, one, yeah, well, that's the other question. When you see people running for president going on podcasts, do you have parts?

[Marc Maron]

We would never do that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh really? Do you feel personally. So you do feel at all reflect upon your influence on having it podcast seem as a political space in that way?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, I think that we went out of our way to, you know, the, the only thing that made it a political space when Obama was, was that he was the sitting president. But the goal was not to do that kind of interview that wasn't going to, you know, necessarily service policy or have that wonky conversation, you know, but we, we never have politicians on because, you know, I have experience in talking to politicians from aramerican stuff and you Cannot have a campaigning politician on, you know, almost in any way without signing off on whatever they're doing. Even if you're pushing back, you know, it just. You're giving them the space, you know, so you want to be part of their campaign, even if you're pushing back.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You're still part of their campaign and they're going to use you as such.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Especially now where they can just use the clips where you're not pushing back.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And do whatever they want.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I want to specifically ask you do. So you set up that they do it because they want to say the R word. And then you turn it back around and you do say yourself how. What was the conversations with you? Was that always built into the joke? How did that arrive? Were there debates about that? I mean, within me? Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I mean, look, you know, I have done, you know, whatever all these guys are doing, I've done every kind of bad, tasteless joke. I've been doing this a long time. And I was a button pusher and, and I was a guy that wanted to sort of take it to the edge. So I, I had bits many years ago about, you know, the nature of, of the word retard.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, and, you know, the difference between how it's used and whatnot. And it wasn't until somebody who, you know, had family member who sort of explained to me that, you know, it's. It's not about, you know, those two uses or whatever. It's really about the pain it causes anybody who has someone in their family and that person, you know, the, the pain it causes by. By, you know, marginalizing them more and not, you know, finding a way to sort of integrate them into the culture for who they are. So, like when I. And I. And that happened to me.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, and, and then you just start to realize that all these words, the reason why these guys and people like to say him is they're just, they're full of juice. Like there's a thrill to it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Especially if you get a laugh and it always will. You know what I mean? And it is sad to, you know, have to let that word go.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

On some level. And, you know, I can, I can identify that. But. But that doesn't mean there's a great case for, for, you know, not figuring out another way to talk about, you know, because I do think it's. I think that the irresponsibility of it is that if you normalize that word for hateful people, you know, then it's you know, it's just. It's back in. It makes life harder for somebody or a little more painful. Know, you could say, like, well, suck it up to the mentally challenged guy. Like, his wife isn't hard enough to the trans person. Come on, just take it to, you know, they're afraid to do anything, you know, because of the nature of their desire and what they need to do to feel like a whole person or free. So I just think that language, you know, that it evolves like anything else. But for me, the struggle, like, I knew that there was no other way to end that joke.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I knew that what it would represent in relation to whatever, you know, discomfort I would cause would be to represent that it was never not allowed.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And there's not necessarily ever a great place to use it, but that was a great place to use it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Definitely works.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. But it turns it on to who I'm being critical of in a way that has impact. And I thought that in relation to the pushback I would get, which I haven't seen any. We'll see after the special happens. It was worth it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I think.

[Marc Maron]

Because I don't think it was gratuitous.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And it makes the point in a way that just saying your point kind of doesn't. Where if you just said like, you can say whatever you want, like, no, you can't. It's like, I'm now going to show you it by doing it. And then the fact that.

[Marc Maron]

And informing it with what with my audience.

[Jesse David Fox]

Who you think is the. As you even note, is the exact people that you think have a problem with me doing it and I'm going to continue doing it. And then you. I think then what is really structurally masterful is you then use how everyone would receive it to then turn it to then be like the transition to the part of, like, oh, I know this part of my audience.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. I need to get a couple emails. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then I think those jokes you have about it is like, progressives have to deal with the buzz. Oh, the buzz kill. You do have to realize you annoy the average American into fascism.

[Marc Maron]

That that line came to me days before the special. And it's the. One of the best things I've ever written, you know, in the context of that thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

In what way? It just sort of really gets well.

[Marc Maron]

Because, like, you know, I just read a book, you know, about, you know, ideological markers as, you know, self branding and kind of like untethered from principle that, you know, the notion that these smaller causes that people get, you know, consumed with and then have, you know, fights with other people about it within the progressive spectrum that leads to the infighting over, you know, tit for tat things that are not, they're not that they're unimportant. But there is no, you know, broader, you know, political ideology at work that's collective. So I knew that they could, they could take it. And that, you know, talking about the kind of personality who is going to bring down a party because of their political beliefs in a very, you know, specific way was a idiosyncrasy that was, you know, pokeable.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I think you're pointing out that it's like it. Idiosyncrasy is a good way of putting it. Is it inconsistency idiosyncrasy that got misconstrued as a, a cause that people were fighting where it was just sort of like a little almost like a quirk of a hang up more than.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I mean, but it does speak to the bigger issue that, you know, the Democratic platform was, you know, basing a lot of their, you know, political capital and campaign, you know, on these issues that were, were fairly specific, not without merit, but certainly not broadly relevant.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you know, it doesn't mean it didn't, it couldn't have been part of the platform. But I think there was this tremendous misread around these, you know, specific issues that didn't speak to the average American. Then I just kind of twisted that a little bit into, you know, we annoyed them into fascism.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think the other thing I'll say about the sort of, what we're talking about in terms of anti woke comedians is it's partly a result of the attention economy where people find what, where it turns a lot of comedians into influencers or shock jocks, where they're just sort of like anything that is, that will get attention like that posting a picture with them and Donald Trump were good to knowing it'll get both positive and negative reaction and that being beneficial over like let me post a picture with me with someone I actually.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, but then that speaks to the bigger issue of like, you know, who are you, you know, really as an individual and as, you know, a creative person, you know, outside of just being a complete hoard of the algorithm.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know that, you know, you are a corporate pawn of whatever platform is facilitating your attention needing in order to make a living or to make clicks, you know, and that, that's another artistic, you know, kind of dilemma. But I think that, you know, what you're saying is right, that, that the idea that there's juice in all this, but it all just feeds division. And I kind of stay out of the broader cultural dialogue around this stuff because it doesn't facilitate a solution anymore because you're speaking to your bubble and your bubble wants you to fight the other bubble. And then it happens and they're like, good job. And then like, well, what changed? Nothing, man. But that was pretty good.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And it's more so that the algorithms want that fight for. They're of course they want both sides of it. The thing that reminded me of they.

[Marc Maron]

Spoke years ago, so does the political powers and the powers of capitalism.

[Jesse David Fox]

The thing that remind me of is you were talking years ago about the culture that created what is referred to as alternative comedy. And you said essentially it said something to the effect of corporate comedy clubs created corporate comedians, essentially that, that comedy clubs becoming a business where a lot of, where one body owned a lot of clubs, result in a lot of comedians who are gearing their entire selves to whatever this corporate body did. And I think what you're seeing is a lot of comedians doing a similar thing for whatever the algorithm is.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Jesse David Fox]

Themselves inside of that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but. But they don't think they're working for anybody.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's. That's the problem. I think that's where we agree where I think they, the al. The social media companies have did a very good job of tricking both sides, thinking that they're. They're speaking freely against the other side.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Or they are both just speaking. They' both just getting attention for the people actually making the money.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're being used. A lot of that going on.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's fair. I was thinking that like, ultimately what we need is a, a modern version of what alternative comedy was at the time, which is essentially every rejection of the corporatization was. I think it becomes over time, alternative comedy has become a sort of aesthetic and a belief that it was one type of comedy, that it was, you know, a sort of anti mainstream thing in some ways where it did feel like ultimately a rejection of sort of what the orthodoxy of comedy clubs at a time where they were particularly corporate. And I think that's a similar thing we need now. And I was wondering if you could talk about the alternative comedy scene in the 90s, Luna Lounge, lower east side, and a moment or a story that captures what that was like. And where there did feel like there was an actual freedom to express outside of the bounds of sort of capitalism of what people can be commodified from a comedian.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think, I still think that in the big picture, comedy is all just comedy and that the alternative spaces were more like the coffee shops in the 60s where you could have weirdos and kind of really kind of people that were doing things that were completely outside of the mainstream's interpretation of anything.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, in, in an almost an art space. But you know, eventually a lot of the, the freaks and weirdos, you know, they, they, they find their audience. Right. So I, I still think that the ones that can hack it and, and have figured out a way to, to do it professionally are still out there.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

But I think that the dominant paradigm is, you know, a bunch of, you know, kind of like minded, you know, informed dumb shits. Like, informed doesn't mean, you know, good stuff. You know, you can be informed with a lot of bad stuff.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So. And they've decided, you know, what comedy is and isn't. And because of the, the, the slow kind of depletion and death of mainstream show business in terms of gatekeeping and everyone sort of being on somewhat the same page, it's just become tribalized. So I don't really know. It's like when people are like, we need a left version of Rogan, it's like, well, there's plenty of them out there, but you don't have the same myopic agenda. You know, it's a fairly nuanced thing and there's no room for nuance in the world that we're living in because of what you're saying, this pitting against each other.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I think to your point, like, the thing that I think that brings to my most is like, kill Tony is literally a mindset then rewarding comedians, like creating an industry for comedians that continue to fit into that same mindset.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, but that, but that's really kind of a spectacle. It's a wrestling show, you know, where, you know, Tony's like the ever present heel and you know, he brings up amateurs to beat up on. You know, I mean, it's not, it doesn't fit into the purview of comedy as I know it of standup in and of itself. But I do think there's a lot of great people who are interesting and unique and don't fit into this tribal paradigm that are out there still working, but it's hard for them to get air because it's all being sucked up by Fake controversy and quickbait shit and crowd work.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is all to say, all what we've talked about in this interview so far. The nature of the controversy economy, the social media, how comedians and politicians have integrated themselves. How much is all this feeding into your decision to and WTF later this year?

[Marc Maron]

I don't necessarily. I don't really think that fed into much of it. There's no sense of defeat with me and Brendan. You know, it's not like, you know, we've been beaten. You know, we've done 16 years of this in a very specific way. And, you know, we did something kind of amazing and kind of groundbreaking breaking. And it's a great body of work. And we, you know, in the last few years, we kind of, you know, earned our keep for it, you know, that we were rewarded for it. So it really just comes down to the fact that, you know, if. If we're just doing it because we do it, is that a reason to keep doing it? We were never into the. In the business of content providing or. Or chasing anything. You know, we remained audio because I. We believe that audio is still the most intimate format and that the way you can sort of finesse it is unique. So this is not the weird thing that people think when people talk on mics is like, oh, they're just talking. No, we crafted in a very specific and nuanced way because of the way Brendan produces each. 1600 and some odd, unique portraits of people of a time and the arc of my life. So some of it is just exhaustion, but another of it is that it's not the political climate, but it is the sort of oversaturated thing of so much content and things out there where everything sort of reaches a level that's not great. Everyone's lowering the bar for almost everything, and amateurs have taken over the world. And in a way that's not good because it plays into anti elitism, you know, anti Hollywood, you know, anti art. So, you know, that. That. That thing is happening. Whereas, like, if we stopped and we've done great work and look at it as a body of work, that if we stop, then we guarantee our legacy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, you know, for whoever cares. But to us, it's important that, you know, we are tired, we have done great work. But it will be interesting to see what, you know, what happens when I have that world freed up. It might be terrible. I might lose my mind. I'll definitely do comedy. I might end up talking on a certain level. I know I have the weight of my Particular fans need to feel consoled or seen by the way I talk. And that's probably the hardest thing. But I'm not feeling any real regret about stopping because, you know, it's a long run, dude. And, you know, the only reason that stopping something freaks people out is they don't understand why. Yeah, well, you know, when you do a body of work that has maintained its integrity and quality for as long as we have, you know, the risk of, you know, not being as passionate or. Or just seeing it as something you do or a job and what that might imply in terms of. Of quality or, you know, your own kind of, like exhaustion or just, you know, feeling like it's a job, what that'll imply, you know, or what. What. What that'll do to it. And also the idea of, like, you know, you like, oh, they, are they still doing it? You know, like, it's a very interesting thing because Stern talked about it. And I think the one regret I have is hanging it on burnout. I mean, burnout is real and we definitely have that. Cause we're a two man operation. We're not great at delegating because we're crazy workaholic kind of. But I think the interesting thing is Stern is, like, he said on show, it's like, wow, if Marin's burned out, well, I must be dead. And he doesn't realize the irony of that. Yeah, right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I don't want that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And I was never as big as him, but still, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think it's like, it's similar to, I think a lot of people's response, like, then just do one episode a week.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, I mean, that's true. But I think that ultimately, again.

[Jesse David Fox]

To.

[Marc Maron]

Sort of chase the requirements of, you know, an audience in relation to content that, you know, we don't want to half ass it. We did a thing, you know, Brendan, you know, wants, you know, time. You know, I want time that, you know, I know it's going to be disappointing to some people, but I think there is a benefit that overrides my personal feelings in terms of, you know, having a body of work that lives.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

As opposed to an ongoing thing that becomes less a body of work and just a drive.

[Jesse David Fox]

Just the thing.

[Marc Maron]

A thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes, I think it is. Now it reminds people that it is work, that it is a piece, that it is a deliberate destruction and not just, oh, it's an extension of whatever.

[Marc Maron]

It's just radio.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Or just like, you know, guys talking on mics you know, you're talking about, you know, somehow or another we've evolved into a, you know, a massive media culture of kind of mid level afternoon drive time radio personalities. I mean, you know, it's just I talk about this and I don't know that I've been very clear about it. It's like, it's just enough talking, you know, you flip around and it's just like there's just hundreds of sets of two to three white guys sitting behind microphones, you know, talking about the last time they shit their pants as adults or whether or not they, you know, use socks when they're masturbating. It's like how much, you know, like. And that's just, it lowers the bar of the expectations. So now that that's been diminished and that though, you know, WTF was, you know, at the beginning and maintained its thing, there's no way you're going to be able to kind of not. You don't, you don't want to drown in that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I have to do my due diligence. I'm going to run through names and you can tell me if you think they'll be on and the last few episodes.

[Marc Maron]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

Steve Martin.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. It hasn't really come up. He was very, you know, he. But again, because everyone talks so much now and now everyone's got a podcast, it seems like a lot of people that were, you know, more specific about what they, their knees were and coming on are just, you know, blathering on everywhere. I don't know. It hasn't come up.

[Jesse David Fox]

Jon Stewart.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I don't think that'll ever happen. And I just talked about my experience with him on All Things Considered, which will, I don't know if they'll use it or not, but I think that I, you know, out of my own really self admitted petty insecurity over amount of time and through a certain amount of coincidental, you know, events, I don't know that that'll ever come around.

[Jesse David Fox]

Adam Sandler.

[Marc Maron]

I'd like that. I don't really quite know why he hasn't necessarily. I would hope it's not because he still holds a grudge against me for something, but every time I've seen him, he's been very nice.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean he's. There was an article where someone wrote up one of the many times where it comes up or photograph and his publicist said like he intends to be on the show, but I don't know what that actually means.

[Marc Maron]

But yeah, I'll look into that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Dave Chappelle.

[Marc Maron]

I don't see that happening.

[Jesse David Fox]

Why?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I don't know how to do it. You know, like, I, I've, I've offered to him in. To his face years ago, and, and I just think he's a. He, he's in some other different world. And I, I don't know. I mean, I'll reach out. That wouldn't be bad. You know, I wouldn't mind it, but I think we just sort of, you know, gave up on it. I think he, he may be always on the list, but I'll, I'll make sure he's still on the list. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

It just seems like of the time that defined the last 15 years of comedy, you and that show, and, and in so much the show is a portrait of comedy during this sort of ascent of what? Comedy.

[Marc Maron]

Well, that would be interesting because I think, you know, at his best, he is a, A real thinker.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, decisions he's made, to me are, you know, something questionable and that could be talked about. But I, I do think at his best, when he's not just trying to be shocking, he's got a very sophisticated way of structuring humor.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think, I mean, in the Are We Good? Documentary that's coming out or that was filmed of you, there is a moment where I don't even know what you're commenting about, but you're talking about Dave Chappelle, and there is a feeling of like everything in the world is going on, and he's spending an hour and 10 minutes talking about trans people again. And it does seem like there is a frustration you have as a person who I think, like me, believes he's one of the. He has the ability to be one of the great comedians.

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Yeah. I think that, like, you know, if you could kind of dig in there, it's. It's something personal. Yeah, yeah. Whether it's a community based prejudice or a religious based prejudice, but it seems personal.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

One other thought I had, I was reading the Defector article by Diana Moskowitz.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

That it seemed. You're really touched by.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And she did point out two episodes I thought were right to point out, which was the Ian McKellen episode, which I remember distinctly. I still have a sense memory of the ending where he reads or memorizes. Just does change.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

But she also pointed out that Louis CK Is a major part of the history of the show. The episode where you guys confront each other about the history of your friendship was once called the greatest podcast episode ever, and I think will be remembered as Seminole. You had him on other times. And also even that your response to when the New York Times story came out is also remembered as sort of one of the things distinct about the show. Is there a world where he would.

[Marc Maron]

Come out and it was diplomatic?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know, because I think he kind of dug in to his position on it. And, you know, I've seen him a couple times lately, and he's been perfectly nice, which was not always the case. And he seems to be doing fine comedically. It would really be whether I was willing to understand why he felt betrayed or mad at me. And then where do we go from there? And I don't know that it's my job. I think he has settled into his position on it. And I, I, I don't, I don't think it's, you know, I, I, I would have to think about what we could do there because I, I, I think he believes that he was, you know, the victim of that. And, and I, and, you know, in, in relation to other monsters.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Who were in that spectrum. You know, I understand his point of view, but I don't know where we go with the conversation, and I don't know that he'd be willing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Obviously we don't have to reveal who the last episode is. You can if you want to, but I assume you won't.

[Marc Maron]

But, I mean, it might be just me.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, well, that discussion is like, what do you want the last episode to feel like?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think it would be interesting, like if, I think we've talked about the idea that if Obama wanted to come back and just have a conversation about where he's at now, that would be interesting.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you see?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Him and Larry David are making a sketch show together.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, that's the, there's something, you know. Okay. But there's also something disappointing about it. But, you know, to explore, you know, his idea or notion of what's happening culturally and politically in light of his belief system around politics would be interesting, but I don't know what the last episode will be.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I get that it gets a sense of what you want it to be like. One thing I was thinking about I'll miss is, and maybe this is morbid or this is the nature when people die, the tradition of posting the episode. And there's something about that I have always, I mean, that is another thing you pioneered. It's not a thing that people focus On. But there is something about that that is unlike really. Like, obviously, there's been tribute to, like, you know, someone dies, the Tonight show, they'll show a picture of a Tonight show or something like that. But, like, there's something different about those things where you really.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And because they're heard differently.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And they're. They're. Which I think is a testament to the type of work that Brendan and I did.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you think you'll miss that aspect.

[Marc Maron]

Of it, of posting dead people? Yeah, well, I think they're available now. I mean, a lot of those episodes, you know, they're all available. And, you know, at the time where we were doing that, you know, we had to pull them out and kind of do that. But I do think that, you know, that was purely in memoriam.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because I think that, you know, things blow by us and you think, well, that's a good talk. But, you know, once someone's gone and you listen to Patrice or you listen to Norm or you listen to, you know, any of the ones that we did that passed, you're like, you know, you're like, oh, this is really him.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And you don't really notice that when they're still alive.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You're kind of like, wow, I never knew that about him. But then when you listen to him, when they're spirits and, you know, that. That. That episode becomes, you know, something that transcends, you know, just the conversation where you're like, oh, you know, I could see where his heart's at or where, you know, his feelings at or how he responds in the moment and how he sees himself. It becomes a very different thing. I guess I'll miss it, but I do know they're all going to be available.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I can't remember. I think on the podcast you mentioned that sort of the two events in your life that were sort of shocking to a point where you had to reflect about what you wanted from life and who you were were your. Your second divorce.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Which. The sort of difficulty of that divorce and your financial situation, out of desperation, you created wtf. The other one was Lynn's passing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I do think of many ways, Lynn, the. The arc of you processing on that on air was the culmination of a lot of the project that you were working on in wtf.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

How do you think about it? Do you do. Is partly that did that time and then moving on through the show also make it sort of a clean, not a cleaner ending, but sort of a ending of sort of what you were going for of, like, sort of who you were at that time period. And now you're sort of moving to a different time period.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think that there. There also comes a point where I would like to, you know, live the life that I have landed in because of what I've done.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And the process of, you know, moving through my life publicly, as I. I did in. In a, you know, a 90% kind of you, you know, open way. Yeah. Like, it's. It's. It's. It's definitely. I've arrived at a place and also through age, and there is an element of me that's sort of like, well, I've. I've arrived in my self, in my body, and the work of that and the. The journey of that is. Is public. And, you know, how. How do I exist in life, you know, without this? Because it is a big part of my social life. It's a big part of. Of me, you know, getting out of myself and talking to other people. It's. It's a huge part of my entire being. And. And out of it came a lot of things. And people have moved through, you know, divorces and breakups and deaths and romances and. And, you know, issues. Other issues I have had, and I've moved through them too. But I think one of the things that happens with, I think almost anybody is that, you know, yesterday starts to seem very far away because, you know, the life you live is generally pretty mundane. You know, it's a bunch of tasks and things that you have to get done and stuff. And then when you put stuff out in the world, you're not really sitting with yourself too long, but other people are.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So, yeah, there is some part of me that, like, it would maybe want to just sit with myself and. And just. And see what that. What comes of that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, but. But yeah, the. The thing with Lynn and. And, you know, being public about that, it was sort of a, you know, you know, a denouement moment.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

For the possibilities of. Of emotionality, if that's a word, that's public.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Thinking about your acting work, which, hypothetically, you can have more time to act. Who knows? If you will, you will. And the way you talk about being in. Stick the Apple TV plus show, where you play the caddy, the former caddy of one and always, you'll be like, I did the show to see if I like acting, like, if I like being an actor, if I can figure out how I can be an actor. You know, you Said, like, part of you in the past were like, why would I do that show? I don't care about any of this.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So what was it like? What did you learn about yourself as an actor? What was your apprehension about being acting the job? And then what did you learn from doing it?

[Marc Maron]

Well, you know, I've done, You know, I've done several things now. You know, I'm still, like, not totally sold on calling myself an actor, but. But I can do it. But, like, it really comes down to, like, you know, a craft, right? So, you know, I play guitar. I play, all right. I can hold my own. But, like, when I play with real musicians, I'm like, you know, I. I'm not. I'm not comfortable. I'm not skilled at playing, you know, correctly in a group. I'm not. I choke. I'm nervous. And so, you know, that's why it's a hobby now. I can get better at that, you know, but I don't think I'm going to make records, you know, with acting, it's obviously something I've always wanted to do, and it kind of got sidelined because it was just too. The rejection was too much, and I never had much opportunity. And when opportunity started to happen, you know, it just becomes, how do you make the time when you're in front of the camera, you know, satisfying as a mode of self expression, you know, where you're not saying your words, you're not making, you know, you know, visual decisions for yourself? There's a lot of stuff out of your control. It is a collective work when you're working with other people. But how was that, you know, doing, you know, five takes of four lines and then waiting for three hours? How. How is that, you know, satisfying creatively? So that was really the question about whether I like it or not. And then, like, the next level is like, well, if I'm going to do this, how do I make it, you know, more challenging or more satisfying to me as a creative outlet? You know, I know myself well enough that I'm not gonna transform into a Russian or something. Like, I'm not, you know, that good. But I do think that when I watch other actors that, you know, you kind of turn parts of yourself on or off and, you know, you figure out, so the character's intentions. And so, like, as I headed into stick and as I headed into being the lead in that indie movie, that I have no idea what will happen with that. Now we're going to wait for Sundance. So that's like, it's almost like it didn't happen. But I did step up and make different choices and try to do the thing and try to, you know, I talked to Al Pacino, and I, you know, I had some notes, you know, some steps that Stanislavski had sort of outlined in terms of character and whatnot. So it's just a matter of, like, do I remain interested in getting better at that now with stick, I felt like, you know, my resistance to it was like, yeah, it's okay, you know. You know what I mean when I read the scripts and, you know, but then when it, you know, I. I don't know anything about golf, and I still don't. But the idea of playing, you know, alongside of Owen, and we are two guys who are really stifled with grief and with, you know, him with his life decisions and surrendering to sadness, that it was something I could relate to, and it would be interesting to see if him and I could work it out. So that was sort of the challenge of that. And also to do it in the context of a character. You know, obviously, I have a work through some of this stuff publicly, but, you know, what is that guy made out of? And, you know, a lot of people are like, well, you're just doing you. I'm like, I don't know that that's totally true. Like, I, you know, I have that in me, but I think a lot of people have ideas of who I am, but not unlike most actors, you know, they are them. Yeah, yeah, but. But I think that I was pretty good in that and in holding that guy and in sort of like, kind of figuring out, you know, with the writers on the set, you know, what I thought was correct in terms of character and what wasn't and, you know, which jokes to use. I mean, I do think there's some. There's some writing that could be improved upon in that show, but I think the heart of it worked. And I'm not anything if not able to, you know, either wear my heart on my sleeve and not know it or know it. So I think I approach it, you know, the best I can, and I offer up the emotions that I think are appropriate for that character. And I think that I do have more control over that now, and I think that's part of it. So, you know, I don't know what acting holds in the long run, because it's a very long kind of wait time, and I know people are really enjoying the show, and I think it's very sweet, and I think it's Moving. And I think it's very watchable, and I do enjoy the final product. But, you know, again, I'm older, you know, I'm changing my life a great deal. And then it really comes down to, like, you know, how much time do I have left? We're going to go shoot another season. That's three and a half months. Not at home.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And, like, you know, what for?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It's so funny. That is literally a joke. I was like, who says that joke? How much time do I have left? It's like, oh, it's you.

[Marc Maron]

It's about not wanting to watch that. Yeah. I don't know how much time I have left. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

But there is. I will say there's a scene in Stick to talk about your. That a lot of what you're talking about, what you're trying to do in the acting of that show, and especially the emotional weight of it. In the fourth episode of Stick, you essentially have to carry the entire series depends on you telling another character. The reason Owen Wilson's character went down the path that he did. Yeah, you sort of. The first few episodes, you know that he was this great golfer, that he had a meltdown, he punched somebody. All these different things happened. All we knew he was sort of at this rock bottom. And then you just have a moment where you have to tell this woman, why Elena. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mariana, essentially. And, you know, essentially that he had a kid who died at a very young age. It's hard to even talk about. And you hold that. You do it. And I mean, that's the thing of, like. Do you remember that scene?

[Marc Maron]

And I do.

[Jesse David Fox]

That is the thing of, like, that's acting. Because if you do that, if the tone of that is wrong, the show's over. Like, it just totally it. Can you talk about that and.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Where it came from and your ability to do it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, you know, there is something about a script and, you know, and actors talk about it, but, like, you know, it's on the page.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. So. So what are you going to do with that? And. And I think in that moment that, you know, look, I. You know, I have my own grief or whatever, but this is this. This is not me. It's my friend who I love. You know, it's an experience, you know, that we went through together to some degree and handled it however he was going to handle it, however I was going to handle it. And, you know, he was there, I imagine, for some part of my wife passing. So I just, like, I just let it happen. And I let the script dictate my feelings, that I was in it enough and I knew what the stakes were and I knew what was at hand. That I was surprised at the emotions which happens, but I knew that they were required. But I lived it. I lived what that scene was. And in my recollection, you know, I had Price in my head, you know, as Mitts, as my friend who lost a kid. And you know, like you said, you know, even talking about that, it's. It's heavy. So. So I let those things happen and. But I also knew in that moment that, you know, this is not a time to, you know, break down, but it's also not a time to hold back. And. And the emotions came with the words and I was happy that they did. And I guess that is being available for the character to let that happen.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. The other thing. And I have not seen.

[Marc Maron]

And she was great too.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

She has to hear that.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And have her own emotional response. And when you're in that with a person, those emotionals are. Those emotional emotions are real. In that moment, you know, you walk away from it and you know, that's the job. But in that moment when you're doing that, you know, it's. It's real.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I mean, and it should be.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Because of what it is.

[Marc Maron]

You don't want to fake that or like, what are you doing?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's the. Where I. That scene started and I knew what direction it was going and I like threw my headphones on. I was like, I can't even hear this scene. And I was like, partly because of this interview, partly because I kind of want to see what you would do with it. And you. I thought it was a really well written scene. I thought you performed it. And as again, if you push too much, it becomes maudlin and silly and it looks like you're. The show's begging to be emotional, more emotional than it is. And if you go too on their way, you're like, well, now he's not even doing it. But he did, I think found a really good lineup.

[Marc Maron]

Well, thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

The other thing, and I want to hear you talk about it because again, I've not seen the movie. But in the same newsletter you wrote about the anti woke comedians, you said you finally watched the movie in Memorial.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So it's a movie you star in about an actor who gets a terminal illness diagnosis and becomes obsessed with securing a spot in the Oscar In Memoriam. And I heard you talk about in passing, the Sharon Stone scene and how it really helped you think about acting differently. And I was wondering if you could tell a little bit about the story of shooting that scene and then what it was like, watching it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, I mean, I kind of, you know, I felt that I was ready to take on the lead of this movie. Which means you're in every scene, so there's not two hours between takes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And if you have time, you're just preparing for the next scene. And this scene was like, it had a lot of levels to it, you know, every scene, I don't remember who told me, maybe it was Rockwell. But every scene's like a play, you know, every scene has an arc. And this one was complicated and you know, and it was, I don't know if it's nuanced, but like, you know, the scene is really, you know, she plays an ex wife of mine and I, you know, I've been through a lot of wives. I, you know, her and I were co stars in movies back in the day and our, our fourth movie flopped and you know, we broke up and, and you know, I kind of went my way, you know, kind of trying to stay in the acting game, but there was a lot of distance between us. And she went on to be a multi Oscar winning actress and a big movie star. And the scene, the driver of the scene is that, you know, when I'm getting close to figuring out a way to get into the montage, it's reported that she has cancer. And you know, and she's a big star. So I feel like she's going to, you know, kind of knock me out of the montage. A certain number of people get in, so I've got to go over there, you know, and it's, it's multi level. I got to feel her out to get, try to get a sense of, you know, when she's going to die, if she's going to make the cut, and then, you know, if it looks like she's going to make the cut, I got to plead with her to make a public statement, to let me into the montage, you know, because with her in a way, and you know, and then if that doesn't work, you know, I've got to make a genuine appeal, which is like there's levels to this because we're both actors. Right. So. So then the final one is just, you know, it's outside of the other two. It's, it's like, it's, it's really a breakdown of, of two People who are dying. And, you know, and heading into it, you know, I. I did all the. I was doing the best I could. And, you know, it's before lunch and we're gonna shoot it. And it's a big scene. Yeah, it's her only scene in the movie. And she's there because she likes me. Sharon is. It's in a mansion, you know, she's doing a full. Kind of Norman Desmond. She's got a. What do you call those? It's not a turban, but the.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, yeah, that wrap thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. On her head. And she's on a couch. And it's a big mansion, you know. And the shot is, you know, I walk in and there's an assistant, and she goes, you know, come over. And I know I gotta cry. We both have to cry. And so we do two takes of a master, and I just can't get there. I'm intimidated. You know, she's just handing me my ass. I can't get into character, and I lose my mind. You know, I go back to the trailer. I'm with my manager, and I do, like, a full DiCaprio. And once upon a time in Hollywood, I'm like, you gotta get me the fuck out of this. It's Sharon Stone, dude. I can't do this. This is a mistake. It was a mistake. You know, I really lose it. And he can't do anything. No one can. And I'm just yelling. And then I realized, like, dude, you're gonna have to pull it together here and step up, you know, the best you can. And I had these things on my phone, these five things, you know, go to the character. You know, where are you? What are you doing? Where'd you come from? You know, just basic shit. So after lunch, I go in there and, you know, we're setting up, and I'm, you know, I'm telling her that, you know, I don't know about the crying. Like, I. I was hung up on it, you know, because I can't do it on command. I gotta feel it. And it is in the script, but it is a little convoluted because of the. The nature that we're acting, you know, and, you know, because with the daughter, I. You know, I could find the tears, you know. Yeah. At least two out of five.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Shots, you know, because of the script. But this was, you know, there was levels to it. And I said, I don't know about the crime. She goes, okay. You know, my son's an actor. He, you know, he has A hard time with it, too. We. He uses onions or whatever. I figure I could use stuff for, you know, the menthol or whatever. And I'm like, okay. And then she goes, but you can cry. And I'm like. She goes, what makes you cry? And I'm like, well, a lot of things. I'm at that age. Surprising. She's. She says, you know, you know, I think, you know, I think we know you. You know, I know what makes you cry. And I already been trying to think about this, and I said, you mean Lynn? You know, and she goes, yeah. And I go, yeah, I. I. Yeah, I know. And she goes, look, you know, just play the scene to her, and I'll make sure she's here. I don't even know what that means, but. Okay. Okay, actor lady. But what it did, you know, like, I did a take where I thought that way, but ultimately, what it kind of made me focus on was that you can't just, like. I can't just think of, like, you can't think about your dog dying or whatever to just generate tears to get back to that event of that happening, to generate tears as a trick for yourself. But ultimately, what I was able to put in place was the idea about just how thrilled and how much, you know, joy Lynn got out of seeing me act. Because she was always like, you were an actor, you know, and she was always a big champion of that. So the idea of whether, you know, Sharon brought her there or whether I did just the idea of Lynn experiencing this, you know, with me, was enough to get me there.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So we did the levels, you know, you know, me going, like, so what do you think? You know, Christmas or, you know, and then, you know, me pleading with her, you know, or not pleading with her, just going, like, you know, could you just help me out? We're both dying. And she goes, you know, what's going on right now? You're acting right now? And I'm like, no. She goes, look, we're both actors, and, you know, you are always better than me. And. And I'm like, you mean, are you just saying that? You know, and she goes, what's going on? And I tell her, you know, we both have cancer. And then. And then ultimately she says, I can't do that. It would be undignified or whatever for me to do that. And then, you know, and then she just goes into this thing like, you were my biggest regret. You were my one true love. And then when. And, you know, we're feeling it, and we're both crying. And then I go, do you mean that? Are you still acting? You know, like she will. Because she says we're both acting right now. That. And we both end up crying and, and, and, and, you know, it was good, you know, and, and it played pretty well on screen, but, like, you know, the. When we were in the scene, it was going on forever and every. You know, in a good way, and the crew was just devastated, and they had no, no idea how that this was going to go this way. But I don't know how to do it any other way, you know, like, I. I said that, like I was with. But it's good. The. The movie's pretty good. I think I did pretty good. I did the best I could. And I think it works because I gotta play an actor, a good actor, and I'm not even that confident an actor. So the whole thing was kind of crazy, but I was like, fuck it, let's do it. But Judy Greer said something funny to me on a junk of her stick. She said, you did something with Mitts that I don't think any actor would have done. Most actors would have gone broad. And I said to her, I said, I don't think I know how to do that. And she goes, I don't think you do either. And I guess that's a good thing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because I kind of wanted. I wish I could go broad because there's some guys that are. They're just so deeply funny as people, in a way, in a very kind of deep way that isn't intellectual, that even when they do serious roles, they can always land in kind of a broadness of their natural being. I always think Offerman or somebody, though, he can get out of it. But even, you know, people who. But I've never been. I think it comes from sketch and from having a certain confidence and in leaving yourself to do ridiculous characters, you kind of develop this kind of fairly deep and very real funniness. And they're just people that are naturally just kind of funny. And when they do act seriously, you know, could go either way. But I don't think I've ever had the ability to be broad in that way. And I think it's good for the emotional component.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, that's so funny.

[Jesse David Fox]

And maybe this is more badass. Do you think you'll make an In Memoriam?

[Marc Maron]

Do I think I'll make it?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

No, the Emmys.

[Marc Maron]

No, I don't think I will. Not at this point. I can't even win a prize. I just want One prize.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, you are getting out right when they're about to do podcast awards at the Golden Globes or whatever.

[Marc Maron]

Sometimes my cosmic timing's good, sometimes not so good.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, I also think it'd probably be only filmed podcast anyway, for. Since I assume they.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I don't know anything about any of that. You want to believe none of that's that important and whatever, but, you know, there's a couple things that are stuck in my craw, you know, like the fact that we never got a Peabody is, like, just a crime. But, you know, you go. You go on with it. I don't win things, and that's just the way it is.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you get a Pulitzer? Do you get Pulitzers for podcasting?

[Marc Maron]

I got nothing. I got the Governor's Award for the podcasting. From the podcasting.

[Jesse David Fox]

I really should have got a Peabody. Seem like maybe by the time they realize they should have given you one, they're like, well, the show's been on. That's wild.

[Marc Maron]

If I couldn't get a Peabody for having president in my house even before that. I know the Robin Williams. It's just like, I don't. Whatever.

[Jesse David Fox]

The other. In the. In that doc, you. They show you not get nominated for a Grammy, and he does. You do seem not surprised, but you just say you want to just so you can be like, you, I want a Grammy.

[Marc Maron]

How much does it.

[Unnamed Guest]

You.

[Jesse David Fox]

How much is it?

[Marc Maron]

Oh, when I. Talking to my dad, well, then I said, like, But I don't even know who I'm saying you to. Yeah, you know, it's like, there's no one out there going like, yeah, that guy, he should never get one, you know? Yeah, no, it's not about fuck you. It's about. It's about. It's about dumb kind of recognition. It's about validation, and it shouldn't be external. And I know we all tell ourselves that. Well, it's not really a meritocracy, and the voters are this. Or maybe someone doesn't like you or the people that vote for these things or this or that. But there is a point where you want, like, I got a nomination for SAG Award. That was nice. It was from the actors. But there is sort of. It is still validating.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Despite. However you're going to deconstruct, it is not being based on anything but just individual people, many of whom have not seen the thing. Yeah, but. But still, there's just a validation there. And I. I'm not thrilled that I. I want that. But I think it's not an unusual thing to want.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, do you have a sense of. I mean, like, how would I put it?

[Marc Maron]

Look, I didn't deserve the SAG award for glow.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, but I was. It was exciting and inspiring to me to get nominated. I do think that From Bleak to Dark fully deserved the attention over the other ones.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, it just seems like you have a body of work that has moved comedy forward, definitely in terms of, you know, Richard Pryor existed and created a sort of idea of what modern comedy would be in terms of how open you are. But I think you pushed it and you figured out where it can go and had the bounds of it. And then with the podcast, I think you pushed human speech forward. Like, and I'm not saying that, like, I'm saying in a jokey term because it's huge, but I do think, like, there just was not a place really where people are. Do recorded that. And before and really now seems like.

[Marc Maron]

I think I pushed the. The depth of emotional conversation. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I know body work's important. And you're right, you know, you come comedy wise. I have a pretty impressive. I have a pretty good body of work if I really think about the specials. But all these things, you know, I still can't not get suckered into the excitement of something being like, well, this is it.

[Jesse David Fox]

I know.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because it just never is. You know, these things come and go and, you know, they live someplace far away eventually. And, you know, and comedy specials generally don't hold up well, though I do make all mine pretty. Pretty evergreen outside of some political talk, you know. You know, but I, I do appreciate, because I do know that I. I can't do it any better. Like, there's nothing I can change to make it better. If I, if there is, I do it. But it's usually at this point with comedy, it's. It's just, you know, subtle things that I challenge myself with. Like, I had to really, the week before this special panicked on hbo, you know, I was like, dude, you get, you know, in talking about progressives and in talking about, talking about what I was talking about, you know, you might want to try to shift the tone to limit perceived self righteousness. So, you know, in that opening stuff, to undercut it as opposed to overcut it. Like, you know, like, you know, everything's great, you know, and then just kind of like, you know, do it conversationally.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

As opposed to. And I made that choice. So so in that way, I can get better.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

You know, but in terms of the work, every point that I'm working at, I'm pretty all in with every. All of it. I'm doing the best I can, and it's pretty good. And, you know, I have to just accept that. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, you're becoming the best Marc Maron comedian possible.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Regardless.

[Marc Maron]

And the only one.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah. 100. You are on a mission to be the most Mark Maron comedian and the best Mark Maron comedian. And it is. The people rewarding are rewarding, whatever their idea of what. Best comedian.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think for. I think they are. I think, in so much as my opinion is more valid than them. I think you deserved a Grammy that year.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, you're all in the book. I wrote a book.

[Marc Maron]

You're so.

[Jesse David Fox]

You got that.

[Marc Maron]

I love that and I appreciate that. And I, you know, because I can't just, you know, like, run around assuming relevance or that I've made, you know, my mark and that, like, you know, you know, fudge you. I did, you know, like, you know, but. But I am always humbled and appreciative that, you know, I am, you know, reckoned with in a way that does have impact for other people. You know, whether it's in your writing or whether it's other comics or whether it's, you know, helping people get sober because of the podcast or even, to a certain degree, creating this space of conversational broadcasting that I think really it was uniquely mine, you know, sure, long form interviews or whatever, but I did something for the space that has become a dominant cultural space that enabled a lot of people to sort of follow suit or exist in that space. And I'm not saying that in a braggy kind of way, but it's part of me appreciating what I've done.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think especially as it ends. You see, you can just see, like, okay, 16 years have passed. Where was the culture beforehand? What are the things that are different? It's undeniable.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Dax Shepard wasn't doing what he was.

[Jesse David Fox]

So now it's time for the final segment of the show. It's a. It's called a laughing round. It's like a lightning round. But I call laughing because it's a comedy show. These are shorter questions, easier questions.

[Marc Maron]

You answer this or have to be funny.

[Jesse David Fox]

You can try.

[Marc Maron]

All right.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do a favorite joke, joke or street joke. You can also pass on these questions. Which is the benefit of this round.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I think I Don't know. I must have done them before on this show. My favorite street joke. Jokes. Well, I, I mean, there was. Oh, I feel like I, I just heard one that. That was. For some reason, I, I do go back to that. You know, the, the, the. The joke about, you know, the, the Jewish joke about the, the. The grandfather walking with his grandson on the beach. You know that joke.

[Jesse David Fox]

Wait, keep on going. I feel like it.

[Marc Maron]

You know, they're just walking on the beach and all of a sudden this wave comes up and just sweeps the grandson away. You know that joke, you know, and, you know, the grandfather's like, oh, my God, please, you know, please deliver my grandson back to me. I know I haven't been a religious person, but I. Please, God, if you're there, bring me back my grandson. And then, like, the kids just delivered back onto the beach by another wave. And the grandfather looks down at the kid, he looks up at the sky, and he says, when he went in, he had a hat. There's something about that joke that I always liked.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is there a joke you've seen a comedian do recently that you wish you conceal. You wish that you thought of it, you wish you had that angle that you can do it.

[Marc Maron]

I haven't had that lately where I'm like, I talk about. Usually it's with something that I'm wrestling with or, Or I've talked about, but it's more precise, you know, I have seen other comedians doing versions of my jokes, which is different and more annoying, you know, and, you know, but it's just the way it is. I did get into a. I did call a guy out recently, and it's not even a joke I do anymore. But the principle of the thing is nothing to do. But I don't think they're.

[Jesse David Fox]

That they're. That they stole it or probably. Or that they're doing it and didn't think to even look to see if someone's done it before.

[Marc Maron]

Well, one of them was a pretty specific sort of rewriting of it, you know, that, like, whether they know that they saw me do it because I knew it was up on my social media recently. My social media guy put it up there from. It's an old joke, but it's uniquely mine. Then I saw a pretty big comic. You know, do you know, kind of the exact joke that I did many years ago? And, you know, it was. These aren't. You know, this is before I tried to go more specifically personal, but. But it was very similar to. Even in action. But then it's like, and then you have to ask, like, was that. Could you just come up with that? But I don't know. Right now, I'm trying to think of comics I've watched lately. I find that, in a general sense, people who are simpler than me in terms of how they present. Like, you know, I can watch Nate Bargetzi, you know, and say, like, well, that's a pretty solid way of sort of elevating something pretty simple, you know, and just as a skill, I think, like, I did more of that, and when I do do it not like Nate, but when I can find the simplicity and something that is right there in front of you, it's very exciting to me. So I think that he's an inspiration on that level, that I can deal with the sort of the mundane and elevate it. Like that joke about playing with Charlie with the ball. I mean, that is so simple. And I just got the final tag for that. Like, days before the special, it had a different tag that was okay. And then, like, a few days, not unlike the annoying people into fascism, it just came, and I'm like, thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

The tag of he realized you were playing.

[Marc Maron]

The tag was. It was. It's a setup. It was always a setup.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I will say, you. Speaking of Nate, there's a line that Nate has in the documentary about you that is a perfect example of that, which is he's. He's describing how big of a comedian you are. He goes, you know, he's big. He's not like an arena act. He's like, can you imagine? Arena people full of people.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, boy. What do you think?

[Jesse David Fox]

He's just like, good night.

[Marc Maron]

Good night.

[Jesse David Fox]

Night.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was like, I bet Mark really appreciated that.

[Marc Maron]

Well, it's funny about all this. He talked to all these people. You know, Stephen did do the documentary, and he showed me a rough cut of it, and, like, every one of them was just busting my balls. And I said, dude, did they. You talked to them for, like, an hour a piece. There's not one good thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like, just a nice. You know, Mark. Mark did a good thing. Melania was good with that one too.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian, living or dead, you're willing to share? I mean, you have tons, but I.

[Marc Maron]

Have a great one.

[Jesse David Fox]

Great.

[Marc Maron]

I actually just shared it. I love telling it, though.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, hopefully mine will come out. Before.

[Marc Maron]

I was in the comedy story, it wasn't that long ago, and I was talking to Dice in the hallway, who I love I really like. You know, I think that guy, despite whatever he's known for in the past or whatever you think he is, he's got a very unique point of view. And, like, there was a period there where he was just going up in the original room talking about his day, and it was the greatest thing ever. Like, he did a whole half hour on going to Staples because he needed to buy, like, a copy or it was just. Yeah, but whatever, I guess, just to set it up. I like him. Andrew Silverstein, Dice. So I'm talking to him, you know, he's talking at me, you know, which happens. He's like, yeah, you know, we're going to do Madison Square Garden again. What? Boo. You know, I'm going to do the movie. Like, yeah, big talk. And I'm standing there listening to him, and some kid walks up. Not kid, but a guy walks up because. I'm sorry to interrupt, but, Mark, I'm so happy to see you because I was going to email you, you know, and. Yeah, I just. I. I guess I want to tell you in person that, you know, you really. You really helped me. You really helped me. You know, you're. You got me through a very dark place to podcast and all on the comedy and everything, and I just. I just. I'm grateful, and I just wanted to tell you that, and I'm glad I got to do it in person, so. So thanks for that. And he walks away, and Dice goes, I never get that. You know, I get you're the reason I lost my job, you're the reason my wife left me, you're the reason I got kicked out of school. That's pretty good.

[Jesse David Fox]

You said in passing that Chris Rock gave you a tag for a joke.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you say what it was? Did you. Did it stay in?

[Marc Maron]

No, it didn't. It didn't stay in because it was leading into some other bit. But it was a good tag, and I always got a big laugh. But, like, it was part of a bigger bit that we decided to take out the weight because I was, you know, he was sitting in the back of the Comedy Store in the or, and I saw. I knew he was there, and I knew I was doing. Working on this bit, which we took out for many reasons. But, you know, the bit was like, I was just doing it. Got a good enough laugh without it, you know, I said, it's not a great time for Jews right now. And then my laugh line was, really? But has it ever been? You know? And that was enough. And then, Chris, as I Walked off. He goes, maybe the fourth season of Seinfeld. And so I started adding that maybe the fourth season of Seinfeld. But that was the end of it and it got a huge laugh.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, that's good. How much did you pay for the Taylor Swift song at the end of your special?

[Marc Maron]

I think it came out to all 50k around that.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's good.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's a good deal. I did everything I could to get it. The joke in front of her, you know, I texted, you know, I, I have, I know Jack Antonoff enough to text him and he's the co writer on that song. I said, I, you know, I don't know what, what, what's proper or how to do this, but, you know, we, I, we're running out of money on this thing. It's probably going to come out of my pocket. Is there anything you can do about this song or talk to Taylor or whatever? He goes, well, why don't you go through the proper channels first and then let me know what happens with that? And I never heard back from him. And it was doable. We made enough money. It was tight. But because of the ticket sales for the special, we were able to get that song. Yeah, no, this was, I think the other thing was it's up to a minute.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Like there was a time, you know, if I would have gone over the minute, it would have been more money, you know. Yeah. So we, you know, we couldn't even like, you know, let it play out the special or anything. So I, I got together with a band and, and wrote that music for that's opening and be the opening and closing. Yeah. So it was just, it was under a minute.

[Jesse David Fox]

Brett Goldstein, I believe, told me.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah, he spent a lot of money for yesterday.

[Jesse David Fox]

He, Yeah, I think he's. No, I think he, he got it like at the cost it would cost to use a song, he said. He seemed like he got a deal on that. Like he didn't have to pay Rolling Stones. Right.

[Marc Maron]

But it was like, it was like, I thought it was like a couple hundred thousand dollars.

[Jesse David Fox]

I have to go back. It made it seem like you didn't.

[Marc Maron]

Have to pay that much for yesterday.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I produce those press, too. It's a funny thing. It's one of my favorite things about comedians is they're just like, this joke is too good. I've already done it too long and cannot pay the money for it.

[Marc Maron]

Well, yeah, that. My relationship with that song and just the fact that I'm playing it on my own you know, it had to happen. The real fear is like, she don't let you use it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then what do you do?

[Marc Maron]

You can't do the bit on the special. So. But that's why I was like, I think she'll like the bit. You know, because they could always say, like, I don't want them to play that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then if you do, they sue you, you know, so. But they signed off on it. I have no idea if Taylor Swift saw the business. We'll find out soon enough, maybe.

[Jesse David Fox]

So this segment inside the segment, it's called the Mount Rushmore. Mount Rushmore. It's four. Mount Rushmore. Have you ever had to do a Mount Rushmore? We just named your four favorite of a thing or four people.

[Marc Maron]

Okay. All right, I'll try.

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm sorry. Comedians.

[Marc Maron]

My four favorite comedians.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Or four comedians. You would put to. Because it's not even best. It's just sort of like the people.

[Marc Maron]

Well, I would put, you know, Richard Pryor.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

I would put. For me, I think. I think you'd really have to put, like, as time goes on, I think you got to put Rodney up there, you know, and I would put. I guess I'd have to put Bill up there. Hicks. And then, you know, I think I would probably put. For me, I think I probably put Bamford up there.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I will say there, the Reddit of my post, my. The Reddit thread about when I was on your podcast, there's a lot of people complaining about how much we praise Maria Bamford. And they were just like, what are they talking about? The great. I was like. Cause I think I said on your show what I believe. She's the greatest living comedian.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I don't think people like, well.

[Marc Maron]

She'S one of those things where you talk about alternative comedy or you talk about like that comedy is comedy is that, you know, I believe in another time that she would have been unstoppable. You know, it's because she is one of those examples that, you know, tribalized comics, fans and people that don't, you know, aren't open to the depth possible of stand up as a form, do not know how to receive her. You know, they do not know how to adjust to her as a comic. And she is a pure comic. So that's really on them.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Because nobody is doing the level of social commentary, of emotional commentary, of commentary about her own mental health, you know, all the spectrums, you know, spiritual. Like, she covers all and does voices and humanity.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marc Maron]

She does It. All of it in, you know, through characters and of it just. Yeah, but she's exactly why. She is a great example of people who are so. I'm not even gonna say dumb, just limited to be like, wow, she's weird. I don't get it. To. To dismiss her because she is weird.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And she is difficult, but, like, you know, let it happen, man.

[Jesse David Fox]

All right, so what is a joke that didn't work, that you'll go to your grave thinking was funny, that you're right, they're wrong. Even if it never worked.

[Marc Maron]

There'S always one of those, you know, sometimes I hang on to them for a really long time. Well, there was one that I just really. I still don't understand why I couldn't get to work. Because sometimes it's just a beat thing, you know. It was a story about my dad's cousin Brent. Do you know the story? No. Like, you know, my whole life when I was a kid, it was just like, you know, everyone talked about Brent was this genius mensa, who was a genius, but ultimately, you know, he's just, you know, disappointment. Like he was one of these classic Jewish tales of, like, the genius that didn't live up as to his potential. And I'd heard this, and I was just a kid. I heard it when I was a kid all the time. And. And like, you know, he just became this kind of like, not a ne' er do well, but just kind of like a, you know, guy that just squandered his genius, you know. And I remember one time, him and his wife, it was probably in the early 70s, late 60s, we were living in Albuquerque, and he was. Brent was driving across country with his wife at this point. That was the thing is, Brent had become like a chef, like a cook, worked at a restaurant. The genius, you know, and he was coming to stay at the house, and I was like, you know, kind of nervous to meet the genius. I don't know that I ever met a genius before. And he was just this guy, just a schubby guy. All right, that's the genius. Right? And then, you know, before he and his wife left, he, you know, you know, he, you know, he cooked my family breakfast. And he's just saying, I gotta be honest with you, those are the best eggs I ever had. I can never get it to work.

[Jesse David Fox]

There's something about it. It definitely works as a one on one story. Yeah, I can imagine on stage, people like.

[Marc Maron]

Because then I'd be like, genius eggs. I mean, you know, like, they didn't get the, you know, I don't know if I didn't build it right, you know, but I could never get it to work. But I always thought it was a great show.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think it's a great joke. What is the best time you ever bombed?

[Marc Maron]

The best time?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

There are awful times.

[Jesse David Fox]

Was there one time where it's not even. It was good, it's just something about it was mythic, I guess would be a good way of thinking of it. Whereas more than just like I tried things that didn't work. But there's something about it that it went, it transcends.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, you mean what was the worst bomb I ever had?

[Jesse David Fox]

Worse is the same thing as worse.

[Marc Maron]

What's the best? There's a story I got sent home from Australia.

[Jesse David Fox]

Okay, so tell that story.

[Marc Maron]

I took a gig. I just left New York in.

[Unnamed Guest]

What.

[Marc Maron]

Is it, 92 probably. And I was, you know, just, I had to get sober and you know, and I was, you know, I couldn't get on stage in New York, so I, I went to San Francisco where my ex girlfriend was. I got back together with her and we ended up, you know, back together. And I was just trying to stay sober and whatever and I got this offer to headline in, in Australia at a place called the Comedy Store. It was like four weeks and then like maybe an additional week or three weeks and then, you know, they'd have a week of previews and then three weeks. So it was like a four week gig in Australia and I didn't like to travel and it was headlining and the guy had seen me at the Improv in New York and I didn't have the time. Yeah, I had maybe 40, 45 minutes, you know, all in, you know, but I took it like a idiot. And you know, I go to Australia, I'm in a weird place, I don't know how to function. Like, you know, I feel like a total outsider. And there's like a giant billboard of me on the club with a quote that wasn't even something I said. And I'm like, oh my God. And it's this huge room, you know, and it's like in, in Melbourne. And like I'm right out of the gate, I'm like starting to break down. And the show, you know, at it was like. And I reconnected with this guy years later. The host was a comic, Greg Fleet. And then they had sort of like a. Almost a burlesque act. It was two women doing a comedy thing, but they had costumes. One of them had an Accordion. Sure. And then the. The. The second feature was a guy who literally closed by escaping from a straitjacket on a unicycle. And then there was an intermission. And then me and, like, right out of the gate, I'm like, oh, my God. How am I an intermission straight, Jack? So, like, I go up and I'm struggling. You know, first day. You know, the first day, and it's just like. It's a nightmare. Like, I'm barely getting through the time. My confidence is, you know, kind of crumbling. And, you know, we do, like, three. I. I don't remember how many days, you know, probably three or four days of previews. They have a small room upstairs, and I go up there and I do okay, you know, but, you know, the big room of previews, it's probably seated, like, three, 400 people. And then it's like, the first night, and I did, like. I did a talk show there, the Steve Visard show, which looked like the Letterman show, but it was like the desk was on the wrong side, and he wasn't even in town, you know, with some guest host. And I remember I was on with Russell Crowe, who was at that point promoting Romper Stomper, you know, which was where he played the righteous white supremacist. And I'm sitting next to him, and my set was okay. And, you know, he's talking about the research he was doing about the books he read, you know. You know, that, like, the white supremacist books. And I just made a joke. I'm like, that sounds like the books I have at home just died. Everyone took it seriously. Just fucking tanked. So I'm like, not good. And, like, over the course of these previews, my confidence is diminishing. It's all a struggle. And, like, the first night of real shows, it was Friday or Saturday. Place is packed. And I go up there after the intermission. I remember I'm smoking, and I'm wearing this jacket I got at a secondhand store, and some guy, like, right out of the gate, you know, like, without an accent, goes, where'd you get that jacket? And I was just, like, froze. And then, like, I just did my spot. And all I could really hear were the embers of my cigarette burning. Like, the silence had a suction to it. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't just, like, the jokes weren't working. I left my body, and I was sort of like, I'm going to be over there, you know. You know, good luck. And I was like, no, LAUGHS Just like, like, like it was like, like there was a suction to it. And I got off stage and the owner's like, hey, yeah, so, you know, that was, that didn't work out. And then like the next morning, you know, he takes me out to coffee. He goes, I don't think it's working out. I think he should probably just go home. And I'm like, yeah, but like, I think we can. He's like, but in my heart, I was like, yeah, I should go home. And then like, right after he says that, some guy comes up to us and he goes, hey, I saw you on the Steve Izard show. It was pretty funny. Were you playing? And I'm like, not. And that's a long flight home from Australia, dude. So like 20 hours. I relapsed. I got shit faced. And that was brutal. Brutal. And then there was the Chevy Chase roast. That was brutal. But they sweetened that so no one can understand why I talk about it. It's like I ate it so hard that I was up in the hotel room with my buddy Sam, crying, telling him I can't do comedy anymore. Doesn't happen like that anymore.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's good. Thank you so much.

[Marc Maron]

Thanks, man.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me. Esse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] podcast. Be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.