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- [00:01]
Jesse David Fox
Support for this show comes from pure leaf iced tea.
- [00:04]
Giamarco Cerese
When you find yourself in the afternoon.
- [00:06]
Jesse David Fox
Slump, you need the right thing to.
- [00:08]
Giamarco Cerese
Make you bounce back. You need pure leaf iced tea. It's real brewed tea made in a variety of bold flavors with just the.
- [00:15]
Jesse David Fox
Right amount of naturally occurring caffeine.
- [00:18]
Giamarco Cerese
You're left feeling refreshed and revitalized so you can be ready to take on what's next.
- [00:22]
Jesse David Fox
The next time you need to hit.
- [00:24]
Giamarco Cerese
The reset button, grab a pure leaf iced tea.
- [00:27]
Jesse David Fox
Time for a tea break.
- [00:28]
Giamarco Cerese
Time for a pure leaf.
- [00:33]
Jesse David Fox
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- [00:58]
Giamarco Cerese
And we, we have to have spaces that we share darker thoughts with in a society where we're lonely. We have to say it out loud and then we go, well, that's. That's mean. This is good one.
- [01:12]
Jesse David Fox
I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer at Vulture and author of comedy Book. My guest today is Ginmarco Cerese. We talk about how comedians build their audience nowadays. And specifically we discussed finding the line for dark, possibly offensive jokes with a young audience made largely online. We also debate the merit of crowd work clips revealing exactly how much it costs to make them each month. It is more than you'd think. So here is Ginmarco Saraci. I'm here with Ginmarco Cerese. Thank you for joining me.
- [01:41]
Giamarco Cerese
Thank you for having me.
- [01:42]
Jesse David Fox
Nice seeing you. So what is the funniest thing that happened to you this week?
- [01:46]
Giamarco Cerese
I went to a Lady Gaga concert and it was like we had good seats because I paid for them, but my agency, like, it was part of their section. And of course I should have expected that. Not everyone in the agency section of all the agencies I'm sure are gonna be like, cool.
- [02:05]
Jesse David Fox
Sure.
- [02:06]
Giamarco Cerese
And I was like, I was with my girlfriend, but I was in like a crop top. I was leaning into, like the event to feel that. And. And there was like an older man next to me in his like 60s. He was filming the whole show. But clearly had he had heard about Lady Gaga today. Today is when he found out and he just, he was with his wife, but he just started talking to us. And every time we Would film, you know, a little bit of Lady Gaga. He'd go, no, no, no, film the screen. It's way higher quality. And he kept saying that every, every single time. And it felt like I wanted to say to him, like, I already have a stepdad. Like, we don't need to. Just when I talked to him, I suddenly, I was no longer in my crop top with Lady Gaga fan. I was a 37 year old man. And he, at some point there was like smoke, smoke effect. And he turned to us and he said, he said, well, someone left the popcorn maker on. And we, you know what? And then we gave him that laugh. He saw that the joke worked. I watched him turn to his wife and repeat the joke. And I said, I think all the time about the open mics we have in life that, you know, when do we bring it to the dinner? When you're in a relationship too, you watch your partner's process. And I said, we gave him false information. And this is how like older guys think that they're fine, funny because everyone keeps laughing at them merely so they can stop speaking to them. And then they go, I've been killing on the road. Why doesn't my wife? And I said, I contributed to that. Society creates the comedians that we have through reinforcement. And in that moment, I was a bad member of society.
- [04:05]
Jesse David Fox
There's some, they're so beautiful. I can perfectly imagine him getting the confidence and then being like someone and.
- [04:12]
Giamarco Cerese
The fact that we were. He was saving it for his wife. I mean, maybe he's a great husband. He goes, I'm testing this all. You know, his wife is never getting the new material show. It's his poor strangers to his left.
- [04:22]
Jesse David Fox
So I want to talk about your special, but I'm going to start by giving you a compliment.
- [04:27]
Giamarco Cerese
Ready, please.
- [04:28]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. I thought you were waiting for you. I know. So. But we're going to have to back up a little bit and talk about Matt Rife.
- [04:33]
Giamarco Cerese
Okay, sure.
- [04:35]
Jesse David Fox
So the story goes, Matt Rife built a large fan base online, larger through crowd work clips. And this fan base was predominantly female. He uses this large female audience to get a Netflix special. And then he opens this Netflix special with a joke about domestic violence, a fairly hacked joke about domestic violence that caused quite a controversy. And I remember Anthony Jeselnik on his podcast was talking about that controversy. And he was like, he used a certain fan base and then when given a platform, he then threw them under the bus for who he thought a standup audience should be, what a comedian's audience should Be like. And he was probably too insecure to accept having a female audience meeting. He was probably too insecure to believe that he can have a female audience and be a real comedian.
- [05:29]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah.
- [05:29]
Jesse David Fox
And I bring this up because you would not do that. My perception of you is you would not throw your audience under the bus. You do not have a perception of what a real audience is. And you, I think quite admirably want to work with your audience to help expand what they understand comedy can be. And that is the compliment I give. I admire it quite a bit because I think a lot of comedians have, whatever reason, they're like, oh, a comedy audience is like this. And I think also, like, I want to do jokes that appeal to only that audience.
- [06:05]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah.
- [06:06]
Jesse David Fox
And you wouldn't do that. So I'm curious, as a way of talking about you, what was your perception of this sort of Matt Rife trajectory as a comedian?
- [06:18]
Giamarco Cerese
I think sometimes all the conversations get about like, the artistic choice or what was his thinking. And, and I can't help but like, scream at the top of my lungs, this is a bad joke.
- [06:29]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:30]
Giamarco Cerese
And, and I so like, I, it's, I, I don't know what his process was. I don't know what it was to like, I need a strong opener. Openers are notoriously tough, but at the end of the day, I just go, this was not even a deep joke. This was a joke that a black eyed joke is something you would tell in middle school. And you know, the same way that if, you know, if, if Jesnick opened up with a what's, what's worse, 10 dead babies or one dead baby in 10 dumpsters, it'd be like, okay, it's not that it was a dead baby joke. It's, that was a bad. If Mad Rife opened with the brilliant domestic abuse joke of all time, whatever that is.
- [07:19]
Jesse David Fox
Sure, sure.
- [07:20]
Giamarco Cerese
I, I'd be there going, hey, you got to admit though, that was a really good joke.
- [07:24]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:27]
Giamarco Cerese
I, I, I, it's got to be. I think social media, the building of your fan base is so different than it used to be. And it's so curated and it's so the, the algorithmically defined. And you know, I've never spoken to him about how he feels about his fan base, but I imagine that with social media, a lot of times you just wake up with a fan base and you go, wow, it's, it's really in one particular area. And did the trajectory of the work and the work that you chose to put out bring in the diversity of that you would want in an audience, if you want it.
- [08:08]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:08]
Giamarco Cerese
And, and it's, it's quite the, it's quite a new burden to not only make the art, but also back in the day it would be like you'd make the good art and frankly, you guys would determine kind of who was platformed where. And now it's like with the algorithm, you could really get a fit. I've performed, opened or done a spot where I go, it's all 22 year old girls. That's crazy. There used to be like a UCB show where the challenge was, you'd go out and every audience member was Hasidic man or whatever. And it's like some of us have created that challenge for ourselves and then that in turns informs the comedy that we make. And, you know, if that's what he was doing, that's a jarring choice to make. As opposed to, you could look at your audience and go, wow, a lot of people are here for my looks. How do I, and I want to be a great comic. How do I gradually navigate that space? I'll tell you, we're not going to do it in stadium shows.
- [09:15]
Jesse David Fox
Sure, sure.
- [09:15]
Giamarco Cerese
No one's getting better in stadium shows. And, and so maybe that was an attempt, but like, it's such a, that's not going to shift it in one moment. The boys aren't going to see that and go, oh, now I'll check it out. And specifically the people who like really good joke writing aren't going to see that and go, you know, he's one of, he's one of us.
- [09:36]
Jesse David Fox
He's a crass.
- [09:36]
Giamarco Cerese
Wow. Now listen, you, you get a, you get a big space of people. Like, I do think you can do a big joke about that group, you know, because there can be a rare thing where, oh God, I don't even know if this, I should share this, but I did a college show once where it was like the audience was, I would say, 95% Indian. And there was a moment where, you know, at the end of the college show, I loosen those up a little and do some Q and A. I don't generally end shows in Q and A, but this Indian kid, he asked me, did you get here via the tunnels? And this was during the chaba or the Jewish Hasidic tunnels or whatever.
- [10:21]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:22]
Giamarco Cerese
And I said to him, I said, what the fuck? Did you get here by elephant? And I only felt safe in that context because I was like, I am not in the power here. I Am in a room of hundreds of people who are Indian. He made an offensive joke. It's like in that space, I could. And by the way, hacky joke, hacky joke to hacky joke. But it was like, to me, it was beautiful. I would hope people would understand the context of it, but in that moment, I was like, I played with the fact that the audience was a particular group of people, that this guy made this comment. And we are in a special space.
- [11:00]
Jesse David Fox
Yes.
- [11:01]
Giamarco Cerese
And by the way, though, didn't clip it. No, didn't clip it exactly.
- [11:06]
Jesse David Fox
Cause it removes the space. Right? You have a context and your relationship to this audience is context dependent. And you created a bond, Right. You essentially created the feelings of friendship. You're like, we all know the rules and we're now playing by the rules. And everyone's like, it makes what that joke out of context would feel offensive or hurtful or who knows? And be like, oh, no, it's all safe. We get it, we're all here. And then you take it out of the context.
- [11:29]
Giamarco Cerese
I tell my editor, like, do a wide shot of the audience when we show them. Wide shot, all audience, full pad.
- [11:39]
Jesse David Fox
How do you. So how do you think of your audience and your responsibility to it as another person who found an audience?
- [11:48]
Giamarco Cerese
I think, I mean, I think my audience, like, it's, it's definitely very queer. A lot of theater kids, children of divorce, I'm sure. But, but I would say, like, you know, if, if I were to like, do a stereotype of it, it would be like someone in their early 20s who identifies as neurodivergent and has a cane and you're not sure if it's for aesthetic purposes. And I love that. Yeah, I, And, And I think my responsibility is like, to, to. I think my responsibility is to be funny. And I think I have to believe in whatever my own heart is on any certain matter. But there is, there's obviously a feeling where I remember once, it was like, it was a 19 year old. And he, he, I say, I already fucked it up. It was a 19 year old. But they, they said immediately that they had just came out as non binary. And I, My job as a comedian is to not enter my. I better be careful now. At the same time, it's. I'm not gonna go, oh, I'm gonna pick on them for being non binary. I'm gonna go, that's not a thing. But I'm gonna try to be as brave in my comedic sensibilities as I can. I do think we're in A safe space. And I wanna be funny. I don't wanna be the same way that someone in a wheelchair goes, like, talk. I want to be able to do crowd work with the person in the wheelchair, not go, well, I better like, not mention the wheelchair at all. I want to do elevated comedy. So don't do a hacky joke about. About that. But I want to treat them like. Like a human being, as I would a friend in that moment with the crowd work. I'm saying, hey, let's talk in the way I would talk with a friend, which will be, like, jokey, maybe a little mean. But I like you.
- [13:50]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. Yeah.
- [13:50]
Giamarco Cerese
I'm not here to hurt your feelings. So that's. That to me is the responsibility that I challenge myself when I have that feeling of, careful, be careful. Don't and fight that. And be. No, be a comedian. Yeah.
- [14:04]
Jesse David Fox
Cause I think you don't want to baby the audience because no one likes that. Seemingly, like, that person came to the show and did not want to be treated like they can't laugh at themselves.
- [14:15]
Giamarco Cerese
Sure.
- [14:17]
Jesse David Fox
And it creates this sort of weird expectation where this idea of people are so sensitive these days, which is, like, bizarre. But people are sensitive. But also, like, they came to the comedy show for Stern thing, and they. And the audience will jive off of whatever your energy is. So if you're tense about it. So anything you say, they're like, oh, there's a tense in this way set. You build a pressure to it that I think it makes it, especially in the moment, extremely hard to leave, because it is. You're just making it up. But if it's sort of like we're playing around, I'm going to maybe mess up. And, like, actually, that's a lot easier. Like, I'm relieving the pressure you have entering this space by making it easier. Not making you the subject of ridicule that we all can laugh at.
- [14:56]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:56]
Jesse David Fox
Which I think is how certain communities can only think of it, which is sort of like, oh, I'm doing crowd work. And each person I talk to is an opportunity to turn them as the subject for everyone else to laugh at.
- [15:08]
Giamarco Cerese
Yes, yes, yes. But. But I. But I think I've always been. Because I grew up in a very progressive. I have very progressive high school. I grew up in D.C. i've always had a. More like, be careful, be sensitive, be. I always remember, like, an early. I did a. I did a. I've just been thinking about so much recently where I did this. I. A Latin teacher in high School was reading from the Odyssey for an assembly and. And was quoting Homer or whatever and said, like, you know, Odysseus said, like, my soul is black with the pain of missing my wife. And a black teacher in the back stood up and said, my soul is black and I am proud. And I remember watching this poor nerdy white teacher just, like. Just, like, suddenly go and freak out and, like. And this was a long time ago. And I have the thing in me, certainly, of I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be misinterpreted. I'll be in trouble. And I have to fight that side of it. That's the side I have to fight to be a comedian, to be truly funny.
- [16:11]
Jesse David Fox
And the part of you that doesn't want to get in trouble, doesn't want.
- [16:15]
Giamarco Cerese
To get in trouble. And couple that with the kind of PTSD that a lot of comedians have from, like, 2020 of, like, one tweet and it's over.
- [16:23]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [16:24]
Giamarco Cerese
And I didn't have those old tweets because I was raised in such a sensitive space. Some of the things I'm like, I would never. That's just. The high school I went to trained me early. My parents trained me. Not everyone had that training.
- [16:38]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. Yeah.
- [16:40]
Giamarco Cerese
And at the same time, I feel like my comedy is kind of to challenge those safe zones, to trust, to go listen. It is a risk. Sometimes something out of context could be taken. I have to. If I live in that fear, I'm not going to make good comedy. I have to stand by what I. What I feel in my heart, what I think my life has said. Yeah. And make good comedy. And I think sometimes there are people. There are. There are trans people with the edgiest sense of humor imaginable. What they might be tired of is that every fucking joke is at the expense of, like, them being trans. And so I do have audience members come up that go, thank you for, like, simply the bar so low. Thank you for not all your jokes about transness being. Making fun of trans people. Usually for me, it's making fun of my own social mistakes in lieu of that.
- [17:40]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. You know, I think a good example from the special that I want to talk about is this. I don't even know how to describe it, because it is a piece, but they're separated. It's a thing you do. Which is about the undocumented immigrants.
- [17:51]
Giamarco Cerese
Yes.
- [17:52]
Jesse David Fox
Which is sort of two pieces. It's. It's a very interesting thing that you do. I'll use interesting because I don't want to well, let me rephrase it. So I think a good example of that is sort of the undocumented immigrant stuff that happens in your special, let's just say stuff because it's not one piece but kind of becomes a piece. But for those who haven't seen it, can you summarize the gist of both the first part and the second part?
- [18:19]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, basically I say, I talk about it can be tricky to be a progressive and be a comedian because as like I want to be like I have this thing inside of me. I want everyone to know how progressive I am. And a lot about being progressive, especially in an age of social media which is text based and you're putting your thoughts into words, is about using the appropriate language and updated language so you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And that's not funny. And then I go from there to say like, I have a joke that, that uses the term illegal immigrant. And I've had friends go, hey, you know, that term is hurtful. It implies that a human being is illegal. And, and so I, and I listen, I do. And I went around the country, I started using, doing the joke saying undocumented immigrant and it stopped getting laughs and I had to go back to them and be like, I'm sorry, progressive friends. Unlike you, I have to win the popular vote. And then later I the joke, I use it in part of a bigger chunk that ultimately is, I promise, funnier. In conte of a younger woman dating my father, my little sister is saying she's a gold digger. And me basically defending gold diggers and saying like, they're like illegal immigrants, they're not taking the jobs any of us want to do. And basically they deserve, in this particular case, she deserves a part of my father's will for sucking his dick, presumably. And so, and, and in the earlier joke I mentioned that like I have leftist views, I have to put them in centrist language. And I think like one thing that's so tricky about like appropriate language and I'm this is not me carte blanche saying all words is that the moment you say sex worker, you are signaling to everyone, but also especially to an audience that doesn't use that, that terminology that just says prostitute hooker that you are, that you are being, you're being appropriate and that you're aware and I'm a liberal, capital L, this is who I voted for. And fine, but some people will be turned off right away. And again, that doesn't mean, again, this is a fine line between catering and and, and tricking in an artistic sense. Yeah, yeah, but. But I want to not have an audience have a reason to not listen to me right out the gate. And I think my views and my takes and my jokes are more important in that instance than using this particular term. And it's a case by case basis. But I think sometimes things get wrapped up in language in a way where I sometimes worry if you watch a TV show and people put their pro. The pronouns are on the screen. I think about the people that are not even gonna watch the show now that they're gonna see that. And again, this is not to say this is. I don't have a firm stance of like, well, then you shouldn't do it. But I think about God, how many people do you not get to trick? And I say trick in the sense of like, someone will take something in without judging it immediately with their preconceived notions. How often do we do things that block people from that? It's the unfortunate part of where people go, I wish actors would stop talking about. And it's like, I don't think that. Do I wish that someone would watch a movie that would, that would shake up their belief system. And they won't, because Mark Ruffalo is in it. That sucks. And every art form has to determine how, how they, they. They deal with that. But I worry that we create a space where no one's getting the message that we want to. No one's seeing the art that they, they don't automatically agree with because we upfront give them a lot of reasons. And I'm not noble in my standup. I say in it, I'm talking. I want to make someone laugh. And I've decided to sacrifice or to use a word that might be repugnant to a degree, because a. I want people to laugh. And I do think the view I'm expressing is from someone who is caring or is leftist or has those views. But I want to be clear. My comedy is not. I'm not hitting the road thinking I'm swaying minds. I'm trying to be funny. And I do think who I am will come through that. And that's my priorities.
- [23:17]
Jesse David Fox
It's also like, you do not want the audience to. There's certain words that, I mean, it's like anything which is like, eventually as the words become more common, it will become second nature to everyone and no one will snag on it. There's words that we currently use that became second nature that no one uses anymore because. And it's hard to think of it, but, I mean, like, you just. I remember when, like, African American was introduced, and everyone's like, we now say that. And then everyone just started saying.
- [23:47]
Giamarco Cerese
But it's tough to control the evolution of language. Like, I think there's a desire to. And there's like a frustration where. Where you go, stop saying hooker. And, you know, there's a million reasons. So many different reasons.
- [24:03]
Jesse David Fox
So many. I mean, like, we've had like seven years straight of everyone thinking they invented the unhoused joke.
- [24:09]
Giamarco Cerese
Yes, yes. And listen, but listen, the problem, I think, with that stuff is there were some people. I'm sure there were some annoying people that have done this show that maybe in a moment, and me too, different things that were like, hey, you should say unhoused. And that was worthy of mockery. I think the problem is a. Of all comedians generally are on the coast. At least now, hopefully, as it spreads out, there'll be the comedians that are making fun of Austin who live there. But I think what happened is that comedians and entertainment lived in liberal bubbles. So they thought they were fighting the power. And in fact, they were surrounded by the most annoying people imaginable. And so it became about that. But really, they were only fighting the power within that bubble. And it's tricky. It's tricky because you do want to make fun of the people you're closest with. But to believe that everyone's saying unhoused. Yeah. Is nuts.
- [25:08]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. And add on to, they're in a online bubble that's liberal. And then one person tweets at them, they blow it up because they're a comedian and so insecure. Then they talk about it and they think their jokes are going to return to the bubble that they're in. But that's not how social media works. It breaks through and then becomes they are a mouthpiece for a cause that they don't believe in.
- [25:31]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah.
- [25:32]
Jesse David Fox
And they're essentially like, being used and not wanting to be used, or they don't think they are. They think they're on the vanguard or whatever, or they're fighting for free speech or whatever they're thinking. And I think it's. I think what it gets back to is, like, especially in terms of, like, it is a comedy show and it's a comedy space, is like, you want people not to feel like they need to be right in their answers. Right. Like, you don't. It's not like you're not posing a question and then the response is like, yes, we agree. It is like, we're playing with these things, and that allows you to be wrong or right. But we are evolving together. Opposed to, I'm telling you all the things you're supposed to say. And even if the comedians who do use the right words are not doing it that way, it's because that's literally how they talk, because they have internalized the language. So many audience members, especially if you're touring, have not internalized that language yet. So all they hear is, like, those are one of those words. And even if they want to aspire to it, they're like, cool. Okay.
- [26:30]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [26:30]
Jesse David Fox
Let me sit up straight. I'm gonna, like, laugh appropriately at this joke, and I'm gonna, like, track the words. Exactly. And it's just not the freedom that I think. I think hackier comedians are allowing themselves to, like, paint themselves as being important or interesting because they're just not caring. Yeah, but they're not doing good comedy. They're just not caring. So people are like, well, at least I get to not care in this space. And I think the thing is, you have a responsibility or you have the potential, which is people feel tight about certain words or certain ideas, and you loosen them up about it. So it allows them to be more open to hearing perspectives, regardless if your goal is. Your goal is not to change their mind, but open them up to not be so tight when the opportunities to change their mind present themselves.
- [27:21]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah. And ultimately, that can only. I can only change someone's mind if someone likes me. I think that's what, like. I think that's the kind of conundrum of a lot of, like, comedians who are view first or view forward is like, you've now the only people listening to your work are the people who agree with you entirely. So it's like. And it seems like your view first in a way where it seems like it matters to you that people are persuaded so you've defeated your own purpose. And I think the frustration that I'm sure some. Again, I really wasn't touring before COVID but I'm sure, like, the frustration some comedians felt when they got in trouble online is like, they were like, you're so mad at me, I tore the whole country. And I make people smile and laugh, and they love this. And then I come here in the coldness of my laptop, and you're telling me that I'm a bad person. And that's kind of the. Being a comedian, you really get to see America. And now less so now because I go to Alabama, and you would Think Alabama was the gayest city in America, but that's just the room that I'm performing for. In fact, when I go to conservative cities, that's usually where I go. Oh, it seems more like. Cause this is the hang tonight. Horse meat isn't going on right now. There's no other place to go. And I just think that's the perspective that I think some older comedians especially felt the frustration with that they couldn't express it to the 20 something year olds online. They want to say, fuck you. I just remember one moment like I did a gig in North Carolina. It wasn't the first wave of comedians doing shows during COVID where people were mad. It was maybe the third where some people would have still been annoyed that I had started. But I remember I was doing. And it was in Myrtle Beach, I think that's South Carolina. And I'm used to New York. And some, someone in the audience member said they, they worked in technology or whatever. And I said, oh, you, you must have been busy turning over the election or whatever. A space in New York. It'd be funny because it'd be, it'd be like, we know I voted for Biden.
- [29:33]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:34]
Giamarco Cerese
And when I did it, there burst into applause. And you have these moments, you go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not like you, I'm not like you. And it's like the idea that, you know, I have to take into account varying audiences. When I go to Europe, I change. I change cilantro to coriander in the same way I have to change and I do, and I have to do it fast and I fuck it up sometimes. And they go, what are you talking about? It's same with social mores.
- [30:03]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. It's also, it is, it's useful. And maybe some people find this minimizing, but like especially for from your perspective where you're like doing your act, it is kind of just if you say coriander in England, but in a way where they're like, oh, he changed that today. He just learned, like they will feel a little bit less connected to you.
- [30:25]
Giamarco Cerese
I always feel a thing when I, where I go, anyone in college and I know they say university, I sometimes I'll go college or university. Because if I just say university, I imagine some of them going, you don't say university. And I don't know if that's true. But like, you know, that's how. And that's, I guess, how I feel. Back to the illegal immigrant, undocumented Immigrant, where I'm like, the important thing here is not this individual word. It's the thought I'm expressing. And so I'll change the joke about the coriander and the cilantro. It doesn't matter which one that I say. My point is, my girlfriend's annoying.
- [31:05]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [31:06]
Giamarco Cerese
Like, in that particular joke.
- [31:07]
Jesse David Fox
Sure.
- [31:09]
Giamarco Cerese
Like, that's how I view it. And. And I also think, like, it's not. I'm not gonna. If they don't use this terminology, it sounds like I'm correcting them or I'm chastising them. And I think, what's more important, I think what's going to get them there sooner and again, this is not my goal is for them to appreciate undocumented immigrants as human beings. And then the secondary will follow. I think if I lead with the secondary in my art, they're just never even going to take in the first.
- [31:38]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, there are. I'm curious your thought. There are certain things you talk about or words you use in the special. I mean, not tons now.
- [31:47]
Giamarco Cerese
People are like, oh, my God, be very specific.
- [31:49]
Jesse David Fox
Because what you just say, you use words. People like, they'll just think of all the show. And like, a lot of comedians now are like, oh, we can say the R word now. My comedy will be about how I can say the R word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you. But you. You talk about suicide in the special. You talk about at length. Some comedians might be like, oh, we shouldn't do that. There's a sense of audience. You talk about at length.
- [32:13]
Giamarco Cerese
You say, pay the price for it now. And you said, gay.
- [32:15]
Jesse David Fox
Well, let's get. Well. And you say gay. But you say, to be clear, derogatory in this.
- [32:19]
Giamarco Cerese
And I mean this in a derogatory way. And this is. Yeah, this. Yeah, I play with it. Yeah, I play with the, the safety or the. Again, like, I think. I think back to the R word I've been thinking about. Like, a lot of this. A lot of this feels post Covid. I think Covid informed a lot of this where sometimes I'm like, I'm like, you can't say the R word to your friends on your group chat. There are different, different levels of society that we are that we're supposed to share your shitty. Your shittiness with or your edginess with. And when you don't have friends or when you're so lonely, you go, I have no one to share the fucking shitty thought with. I think I am a generally fine enough person. I wouldn't want you to Publish the group chat I have with my best friends, we say crazy shit in there and we say it in the context of that. And I think what happens when you have a lack of friends, when you have a male loneliness epidemic, you don't have anyone to say it to, so you need to say it out loud. And when people tell you to shut up, they're telling you don't connect. And it's like, no, it's not freedom of speech. It's. You're lonely. And we have to have spaces that we share darker thoughts with. In a society where we're lonely, we have to say it out loud. And then we go, well, that's mean. And then freedom of speech. And it's like, no, there's levels of speech. And so in that way, if you watch my comedy, if you're a fan of my work, and certainly if you've watched the special, at that point, I think I've shown who I am and now you're a little bit more of my friend. And now we can play in a way that feels ticklish because it's like, you can't talk like this, but you're my. The goal is that you understand me and you feel safe enough to laugh.
- [34:14]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [34:15]
Giamarco Cerese
You know? Yeah.
- [34:15]
Jesse David Fox
I think a good example is like, you use the C word, but in the context of how gay people use the C word in a certain. And you're talking. You're talking about. About drag. It is the parlance of drag. People understand the context of you. Your fans will. I mean, it's possible some people will have no idea who you are, find the middle of your special, of course.
- [34:34]
Giamarco Cerese
But again, again, like, that can't live like that. And I do think, yeah, you have to take people into consideration, but you can't have them be the determiners of your art.
- [34:44]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. So. So again, so the suicide. You have a large section about suicide, but now it's on YouTube and you were talking a little bit about. This is a. YouTube is not. So you can't just have 10 minutes of suicide discussion.
- [34:56]
Giamarco Cerese
Well, I think what's. What's. What's wild is like, again, back to the. The swing of. Like, there was a time where some of the apps were more censorious in a way that felt like you can't misgender someone and that's. That's good. And then the powers that be shift and they go, well, now we're using these tools to say you can misgender one and you can't say cis. And you go, or. Or Suicide. The only post I ever had like an Instagram story that they took down. It's cuz it said eating disorder. And it wasn't even a joke, it was like something, it was talking about something and it was like you go, this is crazy. And suddenly I'm, I'm a free speech warrior. And I'm like, oh, I guess in the new administration free speech warrior is now a progressive thing.
- [35:45]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:46]
Giamarco Cerese
And, and they take these big swings and suicide is certainly one. Or talking about self harm where it's like, basically we'll see what occurs or what's able to be done. But as of now, underneath my, the whole special is, is, is a. If you need help, call the suicide hotline, which isn't great to be like, hey, you want to watch this? You know, helps available. And, and, and that's one thing. And then the question is, in the mysteriousness of the algorithm, does it hurt? Is it pinged in some way? You know, you are, you're at the mercy of an unknown thing. And frankly a lot of these companies, they don't even, they go, we don't think so. And they don't even know. It's so complex and new and no one person has the answer. And you know, there's a part of you that goes, I guess it's good. There's another part of me goes, you know, people talking about suicide rarely makes me suicidal. You know what makes me suicidal? Nostalgia. Maybe we should create an algorithm that every time a YouTube video makes me think of my childhood, the suicide hotline pops up and you go, it's like sensitivity mixed in with Silicon Valley mixed with these massive companies that shouldn't be as big as they are. And we've created a, I think a bad system. And, and look, there was a different time where the people saying, well, they won't let me talk about my view on trans people. And it said, and now I'm talking about, they won't let me talk about, I think euthanasia should be legalized in America. And ultimately you go, the problem is the Internet companies and the world that we've created with technology. But it sucks. And I'm, I'm very mad. And I'm mad in a way that I'm sure those guys were mad.
- [37:46]
Jesse David Fox
How did you decide? Like suic. You know, it is, I think there, there's a tendency to be like, I always find it funny when people like, oh, I like dark jokes, but all they mean is I like making fun of certain groups.
- [38:01]
Giamarco Cerese
Yes, yes, for sure.
- [38:02]
Jesse David Fox
And you're like, what is dark about that joke?
- [38:04]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:05]
Jesse David Fox
Where I think there are certain comedians, like, darkness is actually much more varied, and actually the things that are actually scared to talk about a thing like suicide. How did you think about, like, I want to spend a lot of time on this, partly because of the sort of, like, titillation of it, I'm sure, but also, like, instead of, you know, you could write one little joke about it and then move on. Just as a way of understanding your thought process. How did you think about it?
- [38:32]
Giamarco Cerese
I think I really like when I'm. When I'm going through a tough situation in life, and it's a coping mechanism, but it's just there. Whether it's my dad's heart surgery or it's. In this particular case, I had a friend who was, like, really struggling with suicidal thoughts. And, like, as it progresses, you deal with problems and frustrations and you notice things, and it's like, can I find the humor in that? Can I articulate the joke of that? And the challenge of it is you hear suicide or you talk death at all. People are brought to a place and it's like, can I have a joke that pops through for a second? And so it's like, I really remember my friends in a very good place as of this recording. And I remember there's one time that they really. They. They kind of vanished. You couldn't reach them, and it was scary. And I remember I called them and they were in a car, and they were. This was like. They were like, I just. I fucking hate myself. I. I don't want to live anymore. They were mad and hung up the phone. And, you know, the moment I thought, maybe they're gonna go do it right now. And I. I called back and they turned off their phone or went. And every time I called back, it would be like, hi, it's Alice. I hope you're doing well. Call you right back. And, you know, that moment was. It was terrible. And I don't think I even giggled. But in the moment, I probably was like, Jesus Christ. God, this is. That's insane. Hi. Pick up the fucking phone.
- [40:10]
Jesse David Fox
Hi, Alice.
- [40:11]
Giamarco Cerese
Pick up the fucking phone. I'm talking to this old version presentational of happiness. And then it's like, that sticks with you. And I'm sure. I'm sure before I knew they were okay, I'm sure I went into my notes app and wrote suicide voicemail. I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it.
- [40:32]
Jesse David Fox
That's your process. The thing I just Realized is this interview also will be dinged on YouTube for the amount we talk. Perhaps.
- [40:39]
Giamarco Cerese
Perhaps. Or the algorithm will miss it because it's an imperfect thing, but I love it. I would love everywhere I go to have a suicide hotline underneath. If you're a fan of gym Marco, you might. And then even now, it's like you start censoring yourself and then you don't. And then what you don't talk about suicide is that you don't talk. You just avoid the topic. I can't believe that's a good world.
- [41:10]
Jesse David Fox
I do want to also ask about the earlier part of the joke. The joke joke, which is the. How illegal immigrants are like gold diggers, like illegally immigrants, because it's the job they want to do. Which I think is a very good joke. And I think a very good point, well crafted. So how do you write jokes?
- [41:28]
Giamarco Cerese
I really, for a while, I write them down. I mean, I'm writing stuff out and I think it came from. I started in acting and playwriting and when I first did stand up, I just wrote out word documents. So I write everything out. I'll try to be more looser in the moment, but I have huge word documents that pretty much have all my jokes in it. So, like that dad heart surgery one, which. Which could be viewed as like a chunk, you know, it's a story really. But the kind of stories that I do for standup where it's like I write down individual thoughts and little. Little quips of moments and little like premises from my own life. So, you know, my dad dates a younger woman. It's like, well, I'm going to talk about that in some capacity. And later I'll try to. My dad, my dad said to me, he said, son, you don't understand. When I date women my age, it reminds me of my mortality. And I go, you know, I ping it in my head. I go, ooh, that. First of all, that's what an interesting. What an articulate way to talk about why someone dates younger and an angle people wouldn't thought of. So I go, ooh, I wanna share that. I wanna share that I had to hear this, that I had to deal with this. And I write it down and I go, okay, I hear that point. What's my counterpoint? And that's when I go back to the laptop and I like think or I. It sits there and I look at it. I go, fuck, I don't have a joke. And maybe if I'm brave enough, I go on stage and I do some well, well, seeing yours reminds me that you're a fucking creep. Or it used to be. Well, when I see your government reminds me of Law and Order svu. That was the joke. And it did fine. It did fine. And then it's like, oh, that's not quite it. And then it eventually became. Reminds me of Jeffrey Epstein, which is a. Which is a fine enough joke. It could go deeper. But that was like, that was a joke and I had it and I would perform it. And then as I was building out my dad's heart material, it was like I needed to capture how young this woman was and how it made me feel. And so then I look at my Word document and I start stacking the jokes on top of each other, and I eventually create a narrative and connect them. You know, same with the. I remember the suicide chunk. There used to be jokes that were just one liners. And I remember when I first started dating my. My girlfriend, who's just very smart and sees comedy from a different way, she was like. I was like, these are. I love these jokes. She's like, yeah, but it's just like, it's just five suicide jokes in a row. And it took a long time to get to a point where eventually something happened that housed those jokes, and I rewrote them to reintegrate them. And sometimes you could go, ah, you didn't quite seam it together into a full outfit. But when it's successful, it's, you know, it's a. It's a bigger piece of art.
- [44:15]
Jesse David Fox
So I want to create some context for this and which is for you personally, which is sort of the story you have told is like, you start out as an actor, you made a lot of money in an ad campaign, and you invested that money into a sketch series, which is your first attempt to like.
- [44:33]
Giamarco Cerese
It feels so good to see hear Vulture talk about my sketch series. I wanted so much for that series.
- [44:39]
Jesse David Fox
And it did not work. It was. You did at exactly a time where, like, sketch series were, you know, like, that was maybe a version of the Internet's viral. You did it at a time where that was not necessarily happening and it did not work. But what I'm curious about that entire thing, which is like, some people would make a lot of money and be like, I'm going to use this money to live a lavish life or save it or something. But what's interesting, which is, like, I make this money, it should go into the business. So tell me about that instinct of yours, which is like funding the business, because I think what is interesting about you is you've created a team before. A lot of comedians of your level would create a team.
- [45:28]
Giamarco Cerese
Sure.
- [45:29]
Jesse David Fox
You had a publicist on retainer. When I know comedians with multiple stand up specials who have a publicist for a couple months now. Publicists do not like that, but that's what they do. So I'm curious about that instinct of like, I think you want to describe, like I'm a creative director and the product is Giamarco. Now obviously you're also a comedian, but I'm curious about the creative director side of yourself.
- [45:51]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, I think it's like twofold. Like my, my dad's a, like never worked for anyone, always had his own company and a workaholic. And so that, that definitely is in my DNA. And then like I think what I took from acting was how pathetic the existence was of waiting for everything. And I really gave acting my all. I mean there was a time I wanted to be the greatest musical theater performer of all time and then I wanted to be Daniel Day Lewis or whatever. And I wasn't even thinking through like do I want to do. I remember seeing Death of a Salesman with Philip Seymour Hoffman. I was like, even if I could do that, I don't know if I'd want to do that eight times a week. And being I was, I didn't start stand up until I was 26ish. And I had, I had fully with, with all my effort tried to make it in acting. And I felt the patheticness of, of, of asking casting directors like to please bring me in of, of just sitting around taking workshops, no one giving a shit about you having zero power and then seeing other people, whether they more talented than you or often just hot, just kind of complain about pilot season and you're like, I've never even gone an audition that I think it really created me. And once I saw like oh, I can do it. The moment I saw that I could really control my own destiny, I was like, I will do it a hundred percent and I will. I made kind of a conscious choice to exist, as if I would never get a booking ever again. That it all was going to be myself. And then once you, once you feel it, once you get the feedback of, once you travel to traveling to another city they've never been to and having 10 people who you've never met pay money to like watch you and they, they knew who you were, you go like, you start seeing the tangibility in a way that you so don't get as an actor. And And I just, I wanted to grow, I wanted to every, every. I wanted my jokes to get out there. I have a. Look at me, look at me, look at me. Since I was like a child. And, and so I just, it was important for me to reinvest in myself at every possible way. And then, you know, the more social media came. I used to. I remember when I would caption my own TikTok videos and I mean, this was during COVID It was a rare time where I had nothing else to do, but instead of reading, instead of learning to cook, I was typing out, making it. So there's no overlap. Doing this on your phone. Slight here, slight there. It was awful. And just the more things came, the more I was like, I need help here. It's more worth. And I always had a fear of, am I gonna become a bad stand up comedian? Because I'm worrying about all this other stuff and my priority is always just to be a fucking great comic. And so I outsource and I outsource and I built and I'm, I'm constantly building. I hired my second like full time employee like this this past month and it's, I'm proud of the thing that I'm building.
- [48:59]
Jesse David Fox
Second full time employee. So tell me, assistant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Full time assistant, what is your. How many people are in your team and if you're willing to share, how much money do you feel like you pay in salaries?
- [49:10]
Giamarco Cerese
I mean, I couldn't even tell you, which is my own shortcoming. I have a business manager too. I've, I've. I mean, I'll tell you, I've, I have a business manager. I have a full time assistant. I have a full time social media person, but they work in tandem with a social media company. My openers also do editing. I have a podcast producer, I have various editors.
- [49:32]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [49:36]
Giamarco Cerese
I would say, I mean, God, I truly, it wouldn't be a. It wouldn't be absurd to think that my monthly overhead is at least $20,000 at least. And I probably make most of that back via the YouTube and it probably is higher than that. It probably is high. And yeah, yeah, I want the freedom to also be able to write obsessively. And I always feel like I don't have enough time to write. But I want to build and the world is my oyster and you know, I want to, I want to be able to perform internationally and I want to live a career that I, that I can happily say no to. The Saudi Arabia Comedy Festival when they offer me 350,000. That wasn't offered.
- [50:25]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Giamarco Cerese
To be clear, I'm hoping this podcast gets straight on, but I. I want autonomy. Yeah, I want autonomy, and I hope other things come my way. But I've lived. I've lived enough life where I seen. They haven't. And I've watched the George Carlin documentary where ticket sales slumped and he had to go do the kids show or he was nervous and I go, oh, fuck that. George Carlin. George Carlin. Well, I want to create a base where I have some level of security.
- [50:50]
Jesse David Fox
Let's talk about crowd work.
- [50:51]
Giamarco Cerese
Sure.
- [50:52]
Jesse David Fox
So the calculation I believe you made, which is the calculation I believe everyone made, which was like, well, I want to post clips and I don't want to burn material on the basic level of just sort of like, it's good to sort of put yourself out there. If you do material, will have no material to then perform at. And also, I imagine you saw it kind of working. You're fairly early on it. But I believe, like, there was Andrew Schultz did it really early, and then there was that guy. I forget his name. But like the. The guy who did the, like, see Heckler destroys whatever that. That whatever that person's name is. But anyway, people were doing it.
- [51:28]
Giamarco Cerese
Steve Hofstadter.
- [51:29]
Jesse David Fox
Yes. Yeah, that guy. I always forget his name.
- [51:33]
Giamarco Cerese
You should put. He. He. He forged the path.
- [51:36]
Jesse David Fox
I know. I just literally, I should. I know his name is important because he's this guy who. I wonder how he feels about it now that people did it to them.
- [51:48]
Giamarco Cerese
Like, you should have him on.
- [51:51]
Jesse David Fox
Maybe I will.
- [51:52]
Giamarco Cerese
You should. Absolutely. Steve navigated the Internet way before any of us did. His perspective would be interesting.
- [52:02]
Jesse David Fox
So how did you think to do it? How did you approach it? How did you want to make it so you felt happy with the result of it? Were you doing much crowd work before it? Tell me your sort of journey to it.
- [52:16]
Giamarco Cerese
I never was like a crowd work person early on because I was never good at talking to strangers. It was very scary. And then I hosted at LOL Comedy Club, a very shitty club that doesn't exist anymore in Times Square. At first I was doing check spots for a long time and then hosting. You could you get paid?
- [52:36]
Jesse David Fox
Check spots are when they drop the check at some comic clubs. They have comedians go on to essentially bomb because no one's paying attention. They're doing the math.
- [52:44]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, yeah. They need to put some degree of entertainment, but no one wants to do it because the audience suddenly is in a very bad mood. Especially if it's a bad Club. They're, they're, they're looking down at the check, looking up at you, going, this is not worth it. Yeah.
- [52:56]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [52:58]
Giamarco Cerese
So when I started hosting there, like you could not just launch into material or at least in New York, that's not what they did. Sometimes you go on the road, you'd be, oh, other places hosts just go right into their set and it's just cold and weird for a bit. So at lol, like I just had to, I was doing crowd work to just get in, in there. It was so rough in the beginning. Some of the shows were so colder, so loud, people so talky. And that was really on its own. That was like, for that. And then I don't really know whose crowd were clips I like first saw on the Internet because it wasn't, it wasn't Andrew Schultz. I feel like his era was before I was even looking at like the social media stuff. But I think I, I did a lot of front facing camera jokes during COVID and I just had a wealth of jokes that I could just burn off one after the other. And then.
- [53:58]
Jesse David Fox
The pedophile joke.
- [53:59]
Giamarco Cerese
You have the pedophile joke.
- [54:01]
Jesse David Fox
Very viral.
- [54:02]
Giamarco Cerese
Went very viral. But like, basically there were just like a couple shows where an audience member would know the punchline and usually there were people like in support, like, but you'd see the mouth or, or one time there was like a show where someone was really drunk and she was like saying them with me and I was like. And, and that was when the shift was where I was like, okay, I'm now having enough followers that I can't share my material this carte blanche. So then I, then I was like, what else do I do? And I started like trying to turn roast jokes into it. It didn't fully work. It's a tough one to do. Some people are trying it a little bit better now. And then eventually you just, you just. I explored the, the crowd work and worked and I don't really, it didn't feel like a conscious decision to start doing more crowd work, but I just was like, I need to film every show. And, and then, and then the video started clicking and I said, I need to put out more. I felt like I need to put out something every day. That was kind of my, especially during COVID That was the mentality. Once a day. Once a day. And so then I started doing just more and filmed, filmed it, cut it up. I, you know, and, and then I, I tried to make it personal. I think, I think in the beginning, like it Was, it was about divorce. You know, I had like jokes that were like how old are you when your parents got divorced, whatever AJ said, so it was your fault. And then like, and then from there it would expand and, and I, I just liked it. I again like I, I never do the same show. I never really like to have an hour that I'm running unless I'm about to film something. So it was like fun. It made the shows more spontaneous. I, I enjoyed it and, and now it's, it's just something sometimes, sometimes I do shows where it, it doesn't happen. And then, and then other times there's more than, than not. But no one comes to the show and thinks, no one comes to my shows and thinks that was too much crowd work. Social media, that's, you know, that's anyone's ball game depending on how they digest it. No one comes to my stand up shows and is ever going to say, I remember when I did a chair, not a charity gig, quite the opposite, a private club gig and I was like a feature and the headliner was doing all crowd work. This was before the whole conversation he was killing. And I remember going to the bathroom though someone was leaving. I was like, we should stop talking to the audience. And I remember that moment of the disgruntled person who even though I was killing was like, I wanted to see comedy and so I'm not good enough to, or crowd is not consistent enough. I've never done an all crowd work show and frankly the proposition frightens me because I don't, it doesn't always work. So, so yeah, yeah.
- [56:47]
Jesse David Fox
Did you ever have the opposite of audience members coming and being like crowd work me, let's do some crowd work. Like stop doing your act, they're interrupting.
- [56:58]
Giamarco Cerese
No, there's always seems to be like the fear that people have that we're like poisoning the well.
- [57:03]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [57:05]
Giamarco Cerese
No, I get a lot of messages before a show saying, you know, my, it's my brother's birthday, can you make sure to like roast the hell out of him? And I ignore it unless something was incredibly interesting. But no, there hasn't been like heckles of it because I, I control my shows. I, I think like the idea that, that like, like crowds are going to be ruined because of it. I run my show, I come out and if I showed weakness or I like was a little bit loose. But the moment I start, you know, like I'm doing what I'm going to do. Do I have hecklers now and then? Sure. Hecklers have always Existed. But I find my, my opinion when it comes to crowd work is like I go for my own shows. Part of me is like for my own shows I'll do whatever the fuck I want for my own shows. And I'm accountable to my audience for showcases at clubs. I do think crowd work is rude. I think that being said, if a moment occurs that's like spectacular. But I think to, to. And this is on the club to maintain too. If you, if there's a club where it's known this is a crowd workplace. But I do think like these. The tradition of the standup comedy club is you are going there to see written material. And the moment someone starts doing a lot of crowd work, it changes the audience. This is why I do think it's fair for a headliner to tell their opener like don't do too much crowd work because, because then you're, then you're purposely training them in the moment to expect something else. I remember I did a show at Broadway comedy club where a comedian went into the audience before me and you know, terrible show too. But like Wendy alliance was like doing all sorts of bits to them and I'm like, maybe it was. And this is the next Andy Kaufman.
- [58:59]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:00]
Giamarco Cerese
All I know is that to me, the comedian next, I'm like fuck you, that's rude. I, I came on here, the premise of what we were doing was stand up comedy. I don't think what you did is strictly stand up comedy. And now the audience feels kind of disastrous. And then now I feel like a cornball. And maybe if I was a good enough comedian I could get him back. But that's what I think about crowd work at showcases. I think it's, I think it's generally rude to the other comedians and that I do understand. And if you're using showcase shows to farm for clips that I understand what did.
- [59:35]
Jesse David Fox
When I will say the crowd work wars are over. I feel like they were more of a thing of of last year, 2003, 2004. I think people were much more likely to have disagreements about it and I will. There's all the transition to. But this is all to say when what would happen. It felt like some comedians would complain about crowd work on their social media and then other comedians would be defend doing crowd work. But no one, there were not many debates in public about it. What did you feel like when peers would be like crowd work, it sucks or whatever the hell they say.
- [60:12]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, it was tough because Jay Jordan is my friend.
- [60:14]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, that was the Example, I thought.
- [60:18]
Giamarco Cerese
No, I just think like we have different, we have different perspectives over like, I don't think it's my responsibility the state of stand up comedy, nor do I think I have like the power over it. I think like the algorithm determines a lot of this. Listen, if all my crowd work clips tanked or if they didn't work in the room or I felt like it was losing the show, I drop it. Do I think a lot of bad comedians have been able to make a lot of content that still like does well enough and then they get careers off it and then they occupy the comedy clubs and then they get booked for the Netflix specials? Yeah, I think that sucks. But I would say, I would say that my crowd work is better than plenty of bad comedians prepared material. I think there's bad standup and there's bad crowd work. And the algorithm, I would argue this is that the algorithm, it prioritizes, you can get away with bad crowd work on the algorithm more than you can with bad standup. And that has created a bad incentive structure. And coupled with clubs, streaming venues, publications relying less on their own individual gatekeepers and talent makers to, but to rely on just who's getting the most views, then the algorithm is, is starting to, to make the cream not rising to the top. It's quite. Some shit is being funneled there as well. That's a problem. Do I think that means crowd work is bad or inherently wrong? No. Do I think if you create a culture of kind of shaming around crowd workers, seeing it as lesser than, maybe you'll discourage people from posting as much? Perhaps I, even though sometimes the conversation does bother me where it's like as if crowd work is bad or it means you don't have material. I try to say to myself, jamarco, are you proud of your crowd work? Do you think what you're doing is good? Do you still provide stand up? And I'd say yes. And I try to not let it get to me because I know maybe you do need to create a shame around it so. Because if you don't, people go up to showcase shows and start asking people what you do for work in the middle of the showcase shows. Maybe, but, but, but it's like the same where people go, improv sucks. And I go, that's a whole art form you're talking about. That's a childish view.
- [62:56]
Jesse David Fox
I think my main critique, and I.
- [62:59]
Giamarco Cerese
Don'T think Jay Juridan would say, you know, he says his own way. I don't think he would Ever go, like, crowd work in and of itself is bad or dumb?
- [63:07]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, I think his critique might be similar to mine and I'll, and I'll try to explain my sort of evolution on it, which was I liked, I didn't ever love crowd work pre the Internet version of it, but like, I liked when it felt like it was surprising it could go in weird directions and it felt like a longer experience and like a live phenomenon of like the audience connecting to each other in this sort of weird thing where the comedian and the audience are together and I got concerned or I bristle at when it feels like the live space, which I find to be sacred, is treated as a content creation space. Sure, I don't disagree with that and, but I think ultimately I've now realized, like, I am old and I don't like the Internet as much as younger people, I think are just more comfortable with the sort of fusion of the content creation space and the live space than I. And I think that when I see it now, I'm like, they're in, they're, they're fusing of the reality more than.
- [64:14]
Giamarco Cerese
But there also is the reality of like, well, does the live show matter at all? Like, I, I remember, I remember early on when I was like new getting clips occasionally from crowd work, and I think I was in North Carolina and I was talking to this audience member and it was like this, it was just like, it's just a great conversation. And I, you know, it's just, it's like you're surfing and you're like, I'm still up here, I'm still up here. And I remember then having the anxious thought of like, is, did the camera run out of batteries? And suddenly in that moment you are, you're, if that camera didn't exist, the audience would, may be getting a little bit of a better show or I wouldn't have had that thought. I'd be more focused, whatever. And in that sense I go, like, that has added something. I'm sure that sometimes I keep a crowd work moment going a little bit longer because I'm waiting for like a final button. I, I, I'm not, I'm not in my brain. I don't go, I need to get the six minute clip.
- [65:12]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [65:13]
Giamarco Cerese
But I know sometimes I'm like, let's keep going, let's keep going. Because I think this is like a big thing. Does that divide my attention a little bit? Sure. I, and are there comedians out there that divides it so much that the show's not good? Yes, and that's just the balance you have to figure. But. But I do agree in the sense of, like, I haven't done a show that hasn't been filmed in forever, and sometimes I make it that because then it lets me think of it less. I just go, it's all being filmed all the time. And I wanted to put that thought to the side. But of course, there. There can be a fear. And I think again, when you see the comedian doing showcase shows and they're doing crowd work, you go, oh, you're just doing this for the camera. But again, that's like, all. All art is gonna struggle with the world that it exists in. In the context you get stressed, if the booker's in the comedy club, there's other things that can distract you. This is just a new one. Yeah, 100%.
- [66:05]
Jesse David Fox
I mean, I think that's the thing that I've come to realize, which is you were you and were operating as a creator in at when I didn't. I thought comedians and creators were these different things, or I thought artists and creators were these different things, or artists and influencer were these different things. And that is partly because my relationship to the Internet and how I came at it, I had a time period where there were artists and creators were a new thing. And then ultimately, it seems like audiences do not delineate as strictly as I do, and they do expect a lot of the community they follow to operate in the world of producing content. And they aren't as bummed out about the thing that you might say. Or maybe they are. Maybe they'll come to it where it's like, actually want, you know, like in so much as high schools now have no phones. And obviously there's the. Currently, the no phones version of comedy means, like, I want to be able to say slurs and no one, but like, I do. I can't.
- [67:04]
Giamarco Cerese
Or there's a no phone version of the Naked Roast battle. Like, you can create a space and maybe people will be thrilled by it. Maybe there will. As we all become numb because of phones. You know, the same way my girlfriend and I, we go like, let's go to dinner, as if we're like fucking revolutionary thinkers. Let's go to dinner and leave our phones at home. And it's like, but. But, yeah, it's like, maybe, maybe people will. Will do that. But. But also, like, again, when you're seeing a comedian, you're seeing them, like, with their circumstances. I. I have tonight show set. So every standup show I'm opening or Putting that Tonight show set halfway through that set. Do you think sometimes I go, ah, I don't think the audience really feeling this. I could pivot and give them a better show. I'm running this.
- [67:49]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [67:50]
Giamarco Cerese
You're. You're dealing with. You want to see something more strict, Go see a play, go see a musical. I mean, truly, this is an art form that's, that's very individual based.
- [68:00]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [68:01]
Giamarco Cerese
And that's the beauty of it. And sometimes the conflict and it's very.
- [68:04]
Jesse David Fox
Reactive to the moment. And the moment is technology where it's like a musical written 70 years ago. I mean, yeah, the staging could be slightly different, but ultimately it is like the script isn't script. When I started covering comedy, it was still, the goal was I need to get set on Comedy Central, which then will give me a half hour special on Comedy Central, will then get me an hour on Comedy Central, and then I will have a development deal at Comedy Central. And then I'm Amy Schumer. Right, sure. And we're now talking a time where Comedy Central is just a network for reruns of the Daily show and South Park, I believe, at this point. And I don't know if maybe they, if you were to talk to a comedian starting out now, like, how would you explain what the path is, how they should think about forging a career post gatekeeper?
- [68:53]
Giamarco Cerese
I mean, I would say. I remember once hearing Mike Verbiglay said something where people would ask him that and he was like, you know, his. We did colleges and truck or whatever. And he was like. And I think the self aware thing to say is like, what I did doesn't exist anymore. What do I do? Wait for a global pandemic and make sure you get on whatever the new app is as soon as you can. It's so specific. I certainly have advice like my openers. When they figure out their content or their show or their special. I always have advice, I think, but starting out, my God, I don't know. I have advice for how to be a good stand up and how to, like, fine tune in the challenges of it. And I have advice about how to, like, create a brand online and maybe get a following and find what works. The intersection of those two things is. Is something I grapple with every day. So starting out is tough because there's so many comedians now. And I think what I tell what the only thing that I tell the people. I know. There's a comedian, Yvette. Her last name's escaping me now. But we were talking about it. And I said, you're making a lot. You're making a lot of stuff and it's good. I did her podcast and she makes videos, brilliant sketches, better than I could have ever made at that age. And she was saying, I said, do you want to be a great stand up? And, and she, she goes, yeah. And I go, it's real. It's gonna be, it's gonna be really hard with all the other things that you're doing. I had years where I was at lol doing four shows a night, and then during the holidays, six shows. On the weekend holidays, there's sometimes eight shows. It was a miserable existence. I even asked, I asked, I said, are you dating someone? Because I was single at the time. And I, that's all I did. And I didn't even date. And I go, do you have time to go do the roast battles? Do you? Which I always recommend for joke writing purposes. It's. It's so hard and takes so much folks to be a great stand up comedian. And, and this is where the joke writing comes in. And like, where that's. Aside from all the social media stuff that I've talked to and battled with, there was a time where I was not where at lol. All I was doing was trying to get through that show. And there's so many comedians that are having to do both these things at the same time. And do I think that is disastrous for artistic development. But it's so hard. It's so, it's so. So I just said to her, I said, like, if you want to be a great comic and you're doing all this other shit, my only advice is get a therapist because your life is going to be fucking miserable. If you don't care about being a great comic and you just want to succeed in comedy, I'm not as interested to even give that advice. I go, well, go do that. And do I think you should be headlining one of the great comedy clubs? Do I think it, it contributes to the deterioration of the art form? Sure. And maybe that stuff is dead. Maybe a lot of the club circuit is dead and we have to, to reforge. And people go, these comedy clubs all suck. And you go to the new one that's called the We Don't Film club.
- [72:09]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:10]
Giamarco Cerese
That's the evolution of art. Yeah, I, I'm not in control of that. I'm only controlling my own artistic output. But to those younger people, I would say, like, you do have to cut out the noise and focus on stand up and if you're going to try to do everything, get ready to have no other free time. No one's doing, in my opinion, almost everyone that I see that's starting out stand up. I go, you're not doing enough stand up. And I don't know where you could be doing more standup because what I had lol, was brutal and I wasn't paid for two years and there's, you know, but I got more stage time than I could get now if I tried with where I'm at.
- [72:52]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [72:52]
Giamarco Cerese
And that's, you know, good luck.
- [72:54]
Jesse David Fox
Have you had older comedians come to you and being like, how do I do it? How do I do the Gin Marco thing?
- [73:02]
Giamarco Cerese
No, I think, like, I think comedy is definitely such an ego based thing, it's tough to ask for help.
- [73:10]
Jesse David Fox
I hope they listen to this.
- [73:11]
Giamarco Cerese
Sure.
- [73:12]
Jesse David Fox
Conversation.
- [73:13]
Giamarco Cerese
I think what I feel about with those older comedians is I feel like they hire these social media companies hoping they'll take care of it. And I want to say, like, I wish I could explain to you how bad a job that they're doing, what a generic thing they're doing. I mean, like, there's older comedians and I'm, I now, now I'm like, well, now I'm kind of entering their, their ranks. They no longer can view them as differently. But there's older comedians, when it was happening or wanted to be like, you filmed five specials. You have some money, spend absurd money to have someone cut up this special and build up like you have all this footage, you have all this footage. I go, footage, footage, footage. I will have someone comb through this podcast after whatever clips you put up. And in the past I would have selected them, but they will come through and they will pull more clips and we'll wait a polite amount of time so you don't go, hey, it could be a year from now. And then we'll post it two years from now. If one of those goes viral, if you have the footage, fucking post it.
- [74:13]
Jesse David Fox
So in, in that context, what does a special mean at this?
- [74:16]
Giamarco Cerese
Hard. It's hard, it's hard to differentiate. I, I asked, you know, Tova and I talked to my, my team and I'm like, do I not post for a month to make it feel more special? Does, does it give a shit? You know, I think it's like, like in a way it's, it's over. The idea of the special that, that launches it just doesn't exist anymore. No one's that focused. And Tova says something interesting to me about like, the ability where she knew her favorite Kumail joke and could, like, could. Could almost lip sync it, could do a karaoke version of it. And now we put out so much stuff that, like, you know, what's the version of that, The R. Kelly joke that went so viral so many different times that maybe that joke, someone could, like, beat for beat, do it. I. At the same time, I want it to be special and so, you know, it's higher quality. I poured over the editing, the writing. My. My only hope is that I've written it well enough and that it's long enough that it feels different than the normal fare of what you're getting. At the same time, I'm. I already have the clips made captioned thought out, and I had one chunk about, you know, talking about people equating anti Semitism with criticizing Israel that was filmed. Not that great. From too far away. The outfit wasn't great in a Vancouver show. It felt like, I need to put this up now. It's not going to make it in time right now. I put it up and I would. I bet if we were able to calculate it's the second most viewed thing I've done. Could I bemoan that I didn't get to fine tune it even more? Have it beautifully shot from three different angles? Sure. That's longing for a past that no longer exists. I have to just feel good that that thought and that joke was seen and that people liked it. And I'll never have what Mulaney had, and Mulaney will never had what George Carlin had. And George and, you know, host will never have what Johnny Carson had. You can't spend your life whining over this shit. You can't feel pain now and then. I did want to be that. I did want to have an hour. Yeah, that was the best hour. It's fine.
- [76:55]
Jesse David Fox
So now it's time for our final segment. It's called the Laughing Rounds. Like a lightning round, but because it's a common podcast, I call it the laughing round. Do your favorite joke joke, street joke. Speaking of these things.
- [77:04]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, I like street jokes. I'll tell you one. I can't tell you one that I like. I. I did a joke and then I found out it was a street joke, and I probably, like, took the DNA. It was. I did the. It was about siblings get to call each other whatever they want because they know they know you. But you got to be careful in public if it's a half sibling because you don't look the same necessarily. And so the joke was like, I went with my. My little half sister. We went to. To get salad. She asked the guy made this house for pieces of bread. And I was like, bitch. And the guy made the salad, said, excuse me, what did you just call the young lady? And I was like, no, no, no, she's my sister. And he was like, well, then you tell that C word. It's extra.
- [77:40]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [77:41]
Giamarco Cerese
Now I. I was then listening, you know, for the. To Gilbert Gottfried, one of his albums where he's just doing street jokes. And. And I've now seen it in joke books, which I love joke books. And it's like some guy goes to the bank, a woman, bang, tango. And says, let me speak to the manager. And she's like, excuse me, what'd you say? I said, let me speak to the manager. And goes back again, and again he's calling her a bitch. And then she gets the manager, and he goes, what's the problem out here? And he says, I've been telling this bitch I need to deposit a million dollars into the bank. And he said, and was this C word giving you a tough time? And I remember, I heard it. I was like, oh, my God. And in a way, per our earlier conversation about, like. And by the way, that half sibling joke was one that, like, felt like an earlier era of my standup, where the integration of jokes into more personal or storytelling jokes. I still think it's a good. In a way, I'm like. I'm like, I could toot my own horn and go, look how I changed it. I made it about sibling dynamics. The observation of having a half sibling and you talk to them like a sibling, but you're not immediately physically recognizable as siblings is interesting. That's an interesting perspective.
- [78:56]
Jesse David Fox
Yes. Yes.
- [78:57]
Giamarco Cerese
And then I took that perspective, and then the DNA of. I mean, literally B word, B word, C word, BBC. And inserting it into this perspective, it's like it was my personal perspective mixed with the bones of a traditional joke. And then I would say stage three is what you see. But per my metaphor about the flower earlier that you didn't like, it was built of stage A. Yeah. Yeah.
- [79:24]
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- [80:35]
Giamarco Cerese
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Jesse David Fox
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Giamarco Cerese
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- [82:02]
Jesse David Fox
There's a joke you wish you can steal. Another comedian's joke that you wish you could steal.
- [82:05]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, I mean, I'm obsessed with openers. I'm obsessed with openers. When you headline and the audience knows you, the pressure of an opener is kind of lost. But comedy club opening when they don't know who you are. Brilliant. And Daniel Simonson posted one recently where he has some shirt that's like red up to here and then the rest is brown. And his first line is like, so I've been trying to wear less red. And I saw, I saw him do it. And what's so, what's so beautiful about those jokes is they are often looks based. And I go, mathematically your appearance is the setup. And now all you get to say, all you need to say is the punchline. And it's extra surprising because you get to start with a punchline. And so the audience is expecting a setup deep down in your bones. And little do they know, they've already seen the setup. That one. Louie Anderson. Let me move this mic stand out of the way so you can see me. There's a comedian named Chris Crespo and his arms aren't fully formed and so it takes him a long time to get the mic. It takes a long time. And little do you know, that's the setup. And I think his punchline and I don't know if he this a long time ago, he's like, don't worry, I put my pants on like you guys eight hours at a time. And to me I'm like, all those jokes, the irony is like, you know, those are all things that I'm not. And I look at it but it's like that's what they had. They got to walk on there and do you know.
- [83:37]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, my favorite that I always forget. And it's like a 25 year old joke. But when Jim Norton would come on stage at this comedy seller when I went when I was younger, the audience, who knows why, did not applaud him like any a normal comedian. And he just goes on stage and goes, you guys are looking at me like I beat kitty porn charges on a technicality.
- [83:59]
Giamarco Cerese
Uh huh, uh huh.
- [84:00]
Jesse David Fox
And then immediately set you up for like everything that is Jim Gordon. And the setup is the fact that audiences naturally do not respond to him. And he then figured out how to use that energy.
- [84:12]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah, yeah. And ultimately there looks like jokes like I think you would criticize younger comics for being like, I know what you're thinking, I look like a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Blah. And the truth is, again, like, you could look at that and go, like, looks like jokes are hacky, corny, cheap. But I go, what are you talking about? You're telling me that what people's eyes see, that you can't comment on that? You know, like. Like that's the first thing you're showing them?
- [84:37]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [84:38]
Giamarco Cerese
Play with it.
- [84:38]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. That's the context the room is now in. That's a shared reality you have. Might as well acknowledge it. Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian, living or dead, you are willing to share?
- [84:47]
Giamarco Cerese
Yeah. So when I was at lol, Bill Burr stopped by when the manager wasn't there or the owner wasn't there. And so there was a floor manager. And I. I stand by this woman. She's. She's running the world's worst restaurant in the entire world that happens to have comedians going on stage. And Bill Burr, I don't think this would have mattered, but he had the big mustache because this was around the era of him filming King of Staten Island. And he goes in there. He goes, I'd love to go up. And she goes, I can give you the email if you want to send a tape to the manager. And. And he goes. He goes, I. I just. I sold on Madison Square Garden just like last week. And she goes, oh, gay buddy. And. And essentially leaves. Yeah, And I wasn't there for that. I came, like, later that day. And I remember Usama Siddiqui was like, fuming in the corner. I was like, what's wrong? He was like, they turned away Bill Burr. And so then I think the next night, Bill Burr, I guess, talked about on his podcast, and I saw him. I was hosting at Westside Comedy Club, Rest in Peace in my heart. And Bill Burr was there. He would swing by and I was hosting, and I. I to the side, I said to him, I was like, hey, I work at lol. We're all so mad. It was just like. It was crazy Bill Burr. And he was like, okay. And turned away. And I. I was like, oh, I really thought I had an in here for a good social interaction. And. And he was probably getting ready for something. But. But I just, like, poured my heart out to him. Like, we loved you so much. He liked, okay.
- [86:21]
Jesse David Fox
What'S something that people think is comedy that you think is not comedy?
- [86:26]
Giamarco Cerese
Politics. I think when people say. And everyone says it in some cabats, they go, trump is funny. I want to be like, that's fine, that's fine. You gotta. Are you a dog? You need to control yourself. You need to control yourself. It's. It. To me, it's like. It's like every. If. If every time you saw someone with big tits, you had to be like, look at the knockers on those. And it's like, okay, that's the dentist, though. Like, we need. Like, we're here for a reason. And. And the fact that someone's funny, you don't deny funny. I think. I think one of the stupidest things that liberals did and probably because everyone does it in their own capacity, where they go, that's not funny. It's not that it's not funny. It's that something else is more important now. And. And the funniness or, like. Like leaning into the funny or like, joking about or, like enjoying it, reveling in it is taking away from a very serious thing. And this is like, it feels lame to say, and you don't want to be the person. I'm not saying go, like, don't go to people be like, hey, it doesn't matter that it's funny. But it's like, every individual has to go. Like, if. If you said to someone, hey, I need a cardiologist. Do you have one? And you're like, oh, I got this guy. He's hilarious. You would go, oh, do you have one? That's good, though. And I think that's the kind of social way we need to look at. I see these debates, and, you know, whenever someone gets a good roast joke in, whether it be Trump or Biden or Hillary at the time, it would be like, oh. And you'd be like, oh, she. He got her. God, no, no, no. And it's like, that's insane. And we have. We have lost the plot. And so don't deny funny. But you can go, it doesn't matter that it's funny. And to even talk about the funny is, again, like. Like talking about the cardiologist tits. It's like, we. We are here for a reason. We're about to go into surgery, so we need to talk. We need to. We need to bring seriousness to things and not be manipulated by this comedy. Bad people can be hilarious. And I think the dumbest thing people do is when someone has bad views. They go, they're not talented or whatever. And then it. Then it instills a bunch of, like, the. The amount of people who had to let go. Like, Louis CK Was like, never funny as, like, some moral stance. And then a bunch of people were like, I don't. I. I agree with your Moral position. But, like, you want me to lie right now? You want me to lie right now? I remember the day someone said so. Someone said to me once, they said, who. Who's. Who's the funniest comedian alive? And I do the thing where we go, it's Lucy K. And it was like, well, I think ba ba ba makes someone not funny. And I wanted to say, I don't think that makes someone not funny. I think it makes them something else. But they can still be funny. And it's not even like you need to separate the art from the artist, or you have to enjoy the art. But don't tell me the art wasn't good, because then you're lying. It's like. It's like, you wouldn't tell someone eating McDonald's fries. You. You can tell them like, hey, this is harmful if you do this all the time. And. And here's some other alternatives. But if you tell people, like, those fries aren't good, they're gonna grow resentful. They're gonna go. They're gonna. The same way you snuck in the album you wanted to listen to, they're gonna sneak the fries. And then you're not going to be living in a real world. And when enough people are eating fries, they go, hey, I went online. A lot of people are eating fries. Maybe fries can win the popular vote.
- [90:06]
Jesse David Fox
Do you have a Mount Rushmore of comedians?
- [90:13]
Giamarco Cerese
I do in my mind. And the problem is, every time I say it, it's a bunch of straight white men. And again, there's this mix of. That's not to say I don't have comedians that aren't straight white men. And actually, by the way, Chappelle would be, you know, average. The problem is all these have aged badly. Chappelle's Killing Me Softly was brilliant. Louis CK has the most incredible library of all time. Jeselnik changed the way I view jokes, and I just. It changed me in a deeper way. And then John Mulaney is like the most brutal, pure standup talent in. He has just moments that I think are so brilliant. And there's. There's more and there's more. I'll tell you what it's not, though. It's not George Carlin and it's not Richard Pryor. The time we have moved past that. Anyone who says that is putting on a fucking face or a lot of these Edge Lord comedians who like George Carlin. George Carlin would hate you. George Carlin wouldn't have Trump on the pod.
- [91:18]
Jesse David Fox
Which one to do Second last year. Jokes in network. Do you have a joke that never worked, but you'll go to your grade being like, I was right there wrong.
- [91:30]
Giamarco Cerese
I honestly think I kept it in the special because it was part of the suicide chunk. And I never got the wording right where it was like, where my friend asked me, like, why it's not. Not being able to know how to tell someone why not to kill themselves and being like, I don't know if I have a good argument given your life circumstances in the world and, and being like, God said you can't. And my, My hope was the idea was there's the second part where it's like, you need. Maybe the reason we need hell is because you need to believe there's something worse than staying alive. And I. The joke of it never superseded the tragic nature of the thought.
- [92:17]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [92:18]
Giamarco Cerese
And sometimes with those, I go, you know what? I'll take, I'll. I'll prioritize the thought over the comedy. I and I'll get back to the comedy. But. But I'm gonna allow myself less of a laugh on this one because I just thought it was a smart thought.
- [92:35]
Jesse David Fox
I had last one. What was the best time you ever bombed?
- [92:41]
Giamarco Cerese
I did a gig that, like, if the right person had talked to me, it could have been the end of my standup career. Was. You mean like a bad bomb?
- [92:49]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. But in some way, there's a gloriousness.
- [92:51]
Giamarco Cerese
Yes. It was a. I think year one, I got hired to do a. Hired through a family friend, like, just recommended. It was someone's second bachelor party, second marriage bachelor party. I was getting paid 600 bucks, which at the time was. I was being paid nothing at lol. So it was, it was everything. And I prepped the fuck out of it. I, I, I, Matt Marin and I, I asked Matt Marin, who ran Comedy Fight Club, to, like, write some jokes. I wrote some jokes. We, like, met. I met with their son. I got information. I, I got the person Instagram. And they were like, in their 50s, and I had all these note cards. I got a suit from H and M. I thought, I thought it'd be like Friars Club. And I went back there. It was like a back room of a steakhouse. They were all. It was just a dinner with the boys.
- [93:36]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. Yeah.
- [93:37]
Giamarco Cerese
And there was nowhere for me to perform. It was a round table, and we had to wait for the stakes to come out. So I'm just standing there kind of awkwardly sitting on a side chair. I, I, they said, you want anything to drink? I asked For a glass of. Of merlot. And they said, oh, you drinking wine, you pussy, you. They said, you want a straw for that, you pussy? And I proceeded. I was supposed to do 30 minutes and roast jokes. I mean, 30 minutes, roast jokes. It's. It's a crazy. I would never say yes to that now. So I was gonna do my. My. I was gonna do the roast and then go into my stand up and with some roast jokes. And I joked about the guy, he was a little heavyset, but, you know, I. I did a bunch of fat jokes and at some point, two minutes, and he was like, okay, enough with the fat jokes. And I'm scrolling through my cards and I'm like, that's. That's gonna be a problem. And so. And then I did one about like, let's call him Larry. Larry, everyone says you like eating out. Well, everyone except for Donna. And he goes, hey, hey, hey, her son's right there. And I was like, holy. And then I had to pivot into. I went to college for musical theater material and my. My, like, super personal material where you go, God, someone get me a joke book right now. By the way, when you go, this is when you need some jokes that are not attached to the circumstances. And then, and then I think, like, at some point I said, I said. And some of these jokes were good. I said, donna always dresses up to the nines to make up for the fact that she's a six. And then one of his guys, good joke. And then one of his guys said. He said, no, she's a two. A size two, that is. And Gary was like, yes, that's the. We should have hired. They said, we should have hired you instead. And I was like, you wanted me to compliment your fucking fiance? Are you serious? And they could have rightfully not paid me, but they did give me the 600 bucks. But it was so to be stuck in that position and for 30 minutes feel this thing of like, they want this to end. I want this to end. And for some reason, we have to keep this going because of a contract that doesn't exist. And I, like, it was one of those moments. I called everyone I knew after because I just needed to share. And it was so mortifying because it felt like not only am I not funny, but I'm forcing people to listen to me. And the right words. I could have gone back to acting right then and there.
- [95:53]
Jesse David Fox
Thank you so much. Thank you very much. That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack. Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark, music Composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. 5 stars. Please I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me essydavidfox. Buy my book comedybook wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to good one from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we're back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.
- [96:27]
Giamarco Cerese
ABC Wednesday Shifting Gears is back. He has arisen. Tim Allen and Kat Dennings return in television's number one new comedy.
- [96:35]
Jesse David Fox
What what?
- [96:36]
Giamarco Cerese
With a star studded premiere including Jenna Elfman, Nancy Travis and hey buddy. A big home improvement reunion welcome.
- [96:47]
Jesse David Fox
Oh boy, that guy's a tool.
- [96:50]
Giamarco Cerese
Shifting Gears season premiere Wednesday, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
- [96:57]
Jesse David Fox
Limu Emu and Doug.
- [97:00]
Giamarco Cerese
Here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [97:14]
Jesse David Fox
Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [97:17]
Giamarco Cerese
Cut the camera. They see us.
- [97:19]
Jesse David Fox
Only pay for what you need at libertymutual.
- [97:21]
Giamarco Cerese
Com Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates.
- [97:26]
Jesse David Fox
Excludes Massachusetts.