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- [00:06]
A
This is good one. I am Jesse Davis Fox, senior writer and vulture and author of comedy books. My guest today is Janelle James. We discuss the evolution of her character Ava on Abbott elementary and her pursuit of being one of the greatest stand up comedians of all time. It's a pursuit currently on hold, but it's coming. It's definitely coming. So here is Janelle James. I'm hero Janelle James. Thank you for joining me.
- [00:28]
B
Oh, my God. Listen to your NPR voice, the only voice I got. Hi, thanks for having me.
- [00:34]
A
Well, you know, it's like a serene start.
- [00:36]
B
No, I'm gonna do my NPR voice too. Let's see how long I can stay in it.
- [00:40]
A
We'll see. It'll be a competition. Who can talk like an NPR host longer? What's the funniest thing that happened to you this week?
- [00:48]
B
I mean, I don't know if it's. I've made it funny in my head so that I can tolerate it. I have many brothers, but I have one brother always has a business pitch for me every time he sees me. And this one was for a new healthy soda. And I don't know if you, you guys know I'm not from a soda background family. I'm not one of the, I'm not, you know, Janelle Sprite James or anything. We have no connection to sodas. But he wants to launch a poppy like soda. He said he'll be the new vitamin water like 50 cent. Ha. At, you know, totally disregarding the fact that, that 50 cent was 50 cent when his soda launched. But anyway, his, his drink launched and yeah, I thought that was pretty funny because I was on vacation and just wanted to grab a hug and say hi and then go back to being, you know, fucked up on the beach. But he really wanted to pitch me this and, and, and assured me he didn't want any money. Just wanted to tell me about his idea. He already has investors. He says nothing needs nothing from me except my ear for 45 minutes.
- [02:01]
A
What, does he bring any soda experience himself?
- [02:05]
B
Does he bring any experience in anything is the question.
- [02:07]
A
Yeah. No.
- [02:12]
B
No. And I have unfortunately already learned a lesson about going into business with, with family. And so he's, he's too late. My sister's already ruined it for.
- [02:22]
A
Do you want to put her on blast what her failed business was?
- [02:26]
B
You know? No, I don't. Nah. But yeah, so that's pretty funny. All I could do was laugh.
- [02:31]
A
That's pretty funny. So I want to start with Abbott Elementary. The show's in its fifth Season it's. Which is like a length of show that does not really exist as much anymore.
- [02:41]
B
Yeah.
- [02:42]
A
Do you remember the moment when you thought, oh, this could be, like, a thing that goes like, this is a phenomenon.
- [02:48]
B
Immediately when I read it, before it even happened, I knew. I remember I told my agent, I said, you know, I said, even if I don't get this, it's gonna go. I was like, this is a good. I knew it would at least make it to pilot, and then if they made a good pilot, it would go. I was like, the script is good. I remember reading it and, like, being like, you know how hard it is to, like, make somebody laugh out loud from the written word? I think the only. One of the only other times I remember that happening was like, Chelsea Handler's first book. I was reading that on an airplane, and I was laughing like a maniac. People probably thought I was, like, nuts. So. Yeah. So that I rem being like, oh, this is funny. And also how clear it was, how well drawn out the characters already were. And it was just a good pilot. And it was a good pilot in a pile of bad pilots that I had read and not only read, but tried to write myself. I was just like, yeah, this is gonna go. There's not much good things. I mean, stranger things that happen. Executives make stupid decisions all the time. But I was like, if ABC is smart, this will go.
- [03:53]
A
Did any of the bad pilots you read around then make it and are still on the air?
- [03:56]
B
No, they. They got. They. Some things. Certain things went to pilot, and then they never. Yeah. Materialized into anything. And I. I, you know, I. I try to think that I have good taste. And so those were things that I read and I never even tried for because I was like, this isn't good.
- [04:12]
A
So the office had nine season. Friends had 10 seasons. Cheers had 11 seasons. Where are your ballpark putting Abbott's run?
- [04:19]
B
I. I'm not putting it anywhere, but somebody earlier said 10. I was like, what? Okay. I. I love everybody's optimism for me.
- [04:26]
A
You know, five more years of this.
- [04:27]
B
Yeah. I try not to bank on anything. Things happen, and so that's how you get disappointed. I just keep showing up every day that they call me. That is how I do it.
- [04:36]
A
They keep on calling.
- [04:37]
B
Yeah.
- [04:38]
A
So to back up, you said everything was cleared. When you first read the pile of the show, did you feel like you knew who Ava was? Do you know people like her?
- [04:45]
B
Yeah, well, yeah, like, her. Like, I. I think my audition was very, like, it's almost exactly like, how I appeared on the pilot, very, like, hokey. I remember she comes in, she says, what it do, baby boo? And just somebody that would say that is like. It just gave me, like, corny aunt, you know, who. Who's always like. Like the dad joke equivalent of a woman. That's what it gave me, you know, the cool mom type of. You know. And I think around that time, I think there was a principal in Chicago that was doing wild stuff, and it made me think of her as, well. So it was like a mixture of, like that. That personality of, like, I'm cool with the kids. And I got a little saying, I got a jean jacket. You know what I mean?
- [05:38]
A
That type of you saying that could just imagine. There's so many principles that must reach out. Be like, I bet it's based on me. I'm like. I'm like that.
- [05:46]
B
Yeah. I mean. And that's a little bit of me, too. Like, I love a corny joke. You know what I mean? I love making a kid laugh.
- [05:52]
A
I love.
- [05:52]
B
Know. I was just talking to my nephew and. Well, I was first talking to my brother, and I was talking about, you know, talking about waiting for the new Grand Theft Auto to come out and Castlevania on Netflix and what's the other thing. We were. And my brother and his wife knew nothing about it. And I said, you guys aren't cool. And I started talking to my nephew, and I feel like that's something Ava would do as well. Like, she's up on what's Happening. Six, seven. Right, kids?
- [06:19]
A
That's what I was going to ask.
- [06:19]
B
Six, seven. Yeah, she's one of those.
- [06:21]
A
She's one of those. A lot changes in season four, so I want to back up. Do you remember the first three seasons, how. How you describe how she evolved?
- [06:36]
B
She evolved and I evolved. I believe. I know the first season, she was very much in and out, always traveling, you know, come in the room, say two things, and she's back out of there. I mean, it was. It was frequent, but that's how she was moving. Like, everything was on the move and everything. Everything was absurd, you know, which is. But I feel like every character on the show was kind of that, you know, and that's the way you solidify people's personality in a sitcom like this. Ava's just more in your face than anyone else. Like, Barbara is still the same, you know, I don't want to say uptight, but rigid, you know, older lady who's afraid of change. Jeanine is optimistic, like, and we were all those Things for the first three seasons. And then Ava evolved in that. Ava and I evolved in that. Slowed down. Cause I think, especially for the first season, I myself can see the lack of acting that I had done. You know, I was really just laying into the jokes and not any of the emotion of it. And so I know how to. And also, I think I wanted to say, you know, I was talking really. I speak really fast in a New York kind of way. And so I was doing that. And I remember seeing people like, she talks so fast. And I'm like, I do, but I need people to know that I was also being told to talk fast. We're on a. On a time crunch for the show. It's only 22 minutes. And I'm one of the. I guess, few people on the show that can talk that fast and still land a joke, you know, so. So there. But, yeah, I was very much. And I think she's more relaxed. She's more relaxed in her not only speech, but in her role in the school and her role with her coworkers. She's not so much on the move. She wants to know what they think about things and hang out with them. And. And she's also revealing why she is, like, how she is.
- [08:36]
A
So, yeah, as sitcoms go, traditionally, what happens is the writers write more to the person performing it. Is there a time where you read a script where you either felt flattered or almost insulted about how you were seen by.
- [08:50]
B
Well, so I didn't know that. I didn't know that you kind of become the character the longer you play it. Tyler, who has been on sitcoms for his whole life, is what told me. Because sometimes I remember one time at the table read, I'm reading, and I'm like, wait a minute. You know, like, that's what I would say. Or I. I say that. And I feel like the writers took that for me. So, for example, I know exactly what I'm talking about. I always say, hot. You know, so look at that guy. Hot. Or that something is hot. And then all of a sudden, Ava started saying it, and I'm like, wait a minute. How are you putting my personality into.
- [09:26]
A
I should get a writing credit?
- [09:27]
B
Well, I wouldn't say that, but, yeah, and so that kind of fucks with your brain. It kind of gives me a headache when that happens. But now I have realized just recently, maybe within the last couple weeks, because I've been thinking about it. That's the other thing. When you're shooting this much, you don't really get to think about what you're doing or. You know, I have realized that I'm not that special. Turns out there's other people like me. I thought that was only me with this personality. And no. Other people say hot. Other. I mean, they did take that from me, but anyway.
- [10:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah.
- [10:02]
B
This. This woman. And especially as the show come goes on, becomes more and more like me. And they can write to it because I exist already.
- [10:11]
A
Yeah. They meet you and there's material. Yeah.
- [10:14]
B
So that's been weird. Do you. And maybe I should get right. Right at this point because. Yeah. Not only in speech, but scenarios. Things that have happened to Ava, her. Some of her hustles. I don't know if they've taken it from me or if it's her, but it makes. It runs true to her character, the things she's doing. Yeah.
- [10:32]
A
The thing I think about a lot with Ava is that she hired the film crew. Yeah. So she's essentially unlike other people where you're assuming they are acting naturally, like.
- [10:42]
B
They'Re playing some camera.
- [10:43]
A
She's performing the entirety. She's on the show. Is that how you play it?
- [10:47]
B
That's how I played it. Especially for the first time. Maybe three seasons. I think that's a good point. As far as how she's evolved.
- [10:54]
A
Yeah.
- [10:54]
B
It's cool. Like so. Yep. First three seasons, very much looking into the camera, very much hamming it up. This is my show starring these people. Co starring these people. And then as the show goes on, and especially in season four, where we get to see her family and she gets the love interest and whatever. I myself have made a conscious decision to look at the camera less and be less conscious of it being there and. And, yeah. Perform less. You're seeing more of like the real person or who I think she is. Yeah.
- [11:26]
A
You know, she'll make these wild claims and I. I don't know. I imagine different people see it differently. But when you. When she says certain things, do you think she's telling the truth?
- [11:35]
B
Yes. When I say wild things, I'm telling the truth. Ask anybody. I am. And it's been proven on the show that she all. She. I mean, I guess again, that's why I empathize with her so much. She's lived a lot of life.
- [11:54]
A
She.
- [11:55]
B
We kind of grew up in the same environment. Public school, hustling, broken family. Fabulous. Yeah. So I get it. Like, why wouldn't she. I think like somebody like Ava, you know, grown before her time hanging out with adults. Why wouldn't she run Into Questlove of the roots at, like, 16 and been hanging out at the jam sessions and say, hey, you know what you guys should do? And, you know, you should call your group. Why not? Yeah, that could totally happen.
- [12:29]
A
It is a thing that in the last season, there's the episode where she says, like, oh, I'm gonna do this TED Talk, or whatever the version of TED Talk is. It's a different name. I can't remember. But, like, the episode's building to the fact that she's probably making this up, and then she just isn't. Yeah. And then it almost is like, the reverse of the ending of Usual Suspects where you go back and you're like, wait, does that mean literally everything?
- [12:50]
B
Oh, yeah. I mean. Yep. She. I love. I love that about her. And especially that where it could have been played. Why? Like, oh, she leaves. She gets fired, and now she's so tired, and she's, like, trying to figure out how you're gonna make. Maybe she moves in with this new boyfriend, and it's gonna get. Now it's like, was. You know, like, to stick it to her. Now she has to move in with this guy that she called poor or whatever. Like, that's the. The lame way of doing it. Instead, you find out she's telling the truth about everything. She has her own side hustles, and she's at the school because she wants to be.
- [13:22]
A
Yeah. It makes a really interesting thing where it's like, she just. Actually, you're seeing character make a decision of, like, I would like to do this. I don't need to do this. She just, as a person, be like, I would like.
- [13:31]
B
And that's how I do everything, baby. That's why my head hurt every day I read the script. I'm like, lady, get out of my. No, that is. That is how I do everything.
- [13:41]
A
Was there a claim of hers that you read? You go, were you particularly like. Did you particularly like the idea of this character having this part of being her life?
- [13:48]
B
Yeah. I love the roots here, the root story. I love that. I loved because when I lived in New York, that's how I was. I was always around musicians. I remember having, like, naughty by nature in my first apartment for some reason. And this role has been good because I've done so much, I forget. I was just telling one of my glam. Like, I don't. I've done so much, I forget it until I'm in the situation or Ava does something that reminds me, oh, I used to do that. That's happened to me, something similar has happened to me. Again, I'm not that special is what I'm figuring out. Like, Quinta obviously knows someone just like me.
- [14:21]
A
Yeah.
- [14:22]
B
She says it's her sister.
- [14:23]
A
Really.
- [14:24]
B
And I'm based on. On her older sister. So. Yeah.
- [14:27]
A
Who lives a wild life. Or not wildlife. Just.
- [14:30]
B
Yeah, just. Yeah.
- [14:32]
A
So last. Yeah.
- [14:33]
B
So that's just super cool.
- [14:34]
A
Yeah.
- [14:34]
B
I think that's why super cool broad such as myself, Janelle.
- [14:39]
A
So last season, which was a big season for your character, Ava goes on a date with Oshun, the computer guy. And as a person who's interviewed a lot of comedians, it was fascinating to watch because it was really interesting to see her act how she normally does. She just, like, she's just joking at him and not. And not realizing he does not like it.
- [15:02]
B
Which, you know, I have. You know, not my show, but I have some. I had some thoughts about that in that he's been pursuing her this whole time. He knows who she is. I mean, I guess with men, he's like, okay, now I have you alone. You're not, you know, I mean, the cameras are there, but maybe the cameras aren't as apparent. And you're not. You don't have to pretend around your co workers. Now. I want to know the real you, but somebody like Ava would be like, I thought this is what you liked. Yeah, she says that. Like, I thought that was our whole thing. Like, I say some bitchy shit, and you're like, oh, my God, you're so funny. Like, that's what I'm used to. So that was interesting.
- [15:35]
A
Yeah. I mean, the moment where he says some version of, like, this date is going poorly. Your face is like, truly, like a robot who, like, learned feelings.
- [15:45]
B
I think I say, like, what do.
- [15:46]
A
You mean by that?
- [15:46]
B
Like, what. Why would you say that?
- [15:48]
A
It's like you're like an alien. It remind me of what comedians. I think it's good because it's like, I do think there is, like, comedians, I think, have a thing of, like, they. They are funny, and comedian people like them for being funny. And then when someone's like, who?
- [16:02]
B
I'm being serious, they're like, why?
- [16:04]
A
But I thought you just wanted to be funny all day. Like, no, we want to know some other version of you. Do you. Do you feel like ultimately Ava's using joking as a defense mechanism?
- [16:12]
B
Of course. Yeah. I mean, we learned that in that episode. And a defense mechanism and also as a shield, like, don't ask me stuff about myself. Just laugh at my jokes. And I'M also. She's still on the move. She never really sits down anywhere. Like, you're not pulling her up for a moment of quiet contemplation or conversation. She's blowing past you while saying whatever. So. Yeah.
- [16:40]
A
Is this something you relate to, using.
- [16:43]
B
Humor as a shield?
- [16:45]
A
Yeah.
- [16:46]
B
Yeah, sure. Is it something that I have brought up in therapy at. No. So thanks for that, but I'm sure I do. I'm sure I do. Maybe not as much as she does.
- [16:59]
A
Well, it's also hard because you're a comedian, right?
- [17:01]
B
Yeah. But I don't feel like I'm always on.
- [17:03]
A
But were you, like, what were you like before you were.
- [17:05]
B
You had to ask someone else, like, does Janelle seem like she's always on? Maybe I am. But what was I like before? I feel like I've always been myself.
- [17:14]
A
Yeah.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah. I feel like I've always been this whatever I am. Whatever I am.
- [17:18]
A
You're like someone to tell you.
- [17:20]
B
Yeah. I'm like. I mean, people always like, you're funny, but I don't know if I'm being on or if I'm just. It's just my personality, you know?
- [17:26]
A
So what's it like now playing Ava in love?
- [17:29]
B
Ava in love. She hasn't really changed that much, and that's fine. And that's also why I like the show. Like, Quinta's not doing unreal. Like, we're very realistic. Nobody just changes because they meet a man. You could pretend. I like that. She's not pretending like she's some whole new person because this man is around. Like, she can still like him and still be the same person. And, you know, he. I guess what she still sees in him, that's attractive, that he. He doesn't let her get away with it. And if he. And he does it in a way that's not disrespectful. You know, like, he seems to be. He seems to understand why she's doing what she's doing and is okay with it for now, I guess, you know? And so, yeah, I want to say. And I was afraid she would become some, like, softy. She is doing, like, a whole my man, my man thing. But it's very. Still much braggy enough and not, oh, I'm ready to, you know, be emotionally available and mature.
- [18:37]
A
I think the best example yet. So there's the baseball game. You go, and you really want to be on the kiss cam.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah. And then I totally empathize with that.
- [18:47]
A
Well. And especially this character. Right. It's like she literally hired a crew to do this and he's not available for it. And you are upset and then you explain why and you assume it's going to be a certain sort of sitcom television moment. Yeah. But instead do you remember what her explanation was?
- [19:03]
B
She's used to. Usually she's dating athletes so they. They're not available for the kiss cam. And you just a computer guy. So where you been? You know. Where were you not on your mark. I totally got it. And I don't think. I don't think she was again. He knows who he's dating and I think she was. I don't think that was too high of a request of him. You don't have no money. Can I be on the kiss cam?
- [19:32]
A
Yeah, you. But it's also like. It's.
- [19:35]
B
His response is like what you're giving me.
- [19:40]
A
Because his response is like should I feel bad about the fact that you only dated athlete. And I do think it. It is interesting that like your, your like heartfelt reveal is a brag. Is a what is like essentially you are bragging to him. But it's like.
- [19:54]
B
But it's like she thinks so.
- [19:55]
A
That's exactly. But both. That's why I think it's really well written because it's. She doesn't.
- [19:59]
B
If you take it as a brag. That's you. Because you've never dated professional athletes. I feel like anyone who in took that as a brag can't and can't.
- [20:08]
A
Why don't you can't relate as. Have you dated professional athletes? Is it? Yes. And it's not a thing to brag about.
- [20:15]
B
I mean. No. I don't think. I don't think anyone that's with me today knows that I dated a professional athletes. I don't brag about it. But I think that was a real thing for her. And that's what makes. That's what makes her so interesting to me. I don't think she's trying to meet me. And she has no idea.
- [20:33]
A
So.
- [20:33]
B
And how. That's how I tried to play it too. Like she's just like I. I'm used to dating. She didn't say it like in a mean way. She's just like, why don't you. I. This was a moment for me that I really wanted. It's something that I've always wanted. But I couldn't because I'm dating. Like don't you get that? Where were you?
- [20:51]
A
Her problems are her problems.
- [20:52]
B
Yeah. And he has to. This is a relationship. You have to meet me. Halfway I'm going to lower my, you know, monetary standards and you get on the fucking kiss cam. I don't. I didn't agree with. I wouldn't. The backlash that she was. God damn it, I'm Ava. But the point is, so did.
- [21:13]
A
So the writers. I did. I can't imagine the writers were well aware that you have dated professional athletes to just sort of be like, well, Ava would be this type of person and Janelle's this type of person.
- [21:23]
B
Yeah.
- [21:24]
A
Wouldn't put a pastor probably. So when you read that, you're like, yeah, of course.
- [21:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, I thought it was hilarious that she would say that. I wouldn't say it. See, that's the difference between. I need to learn from her a little bit to just be more straightforward. I probably just pouted and made em buy me something or whatever. And that would have been. And I wouldn't have communicated as well as Ava. I think she. That was great communication on her part.
- [21:47]
A
Yeah.
- [21:48]
B
And I think she was really upset.
- [21:49]
A
Yeah. It is just.
- [21:52]
B
I'm looking at your face and I feel. I feel judgment. I feel the judgment.
- [21:55]
A
No, I think it's.
- [21:56]
B
I think. I don't think she knows.
- [21:58]
A
I've never dated a professional athlete. I don't know what it's. I don't know that reality.
- [22:02]
B
Let's take the professional athletes out. I've always wanted to go to the rodeo or anything. I wanted to be at the. I wanted the first donut. But my guy. I dated the donut man. And now we can be here in line to get the first donut. I'm just doing a. I don't know what an example is, but I've always wanted to do something, but the person I dating because of their profession was never there. Oh, I dated a traveling salesman. So I've never got to do Valentine's Day because he sells Valentine's Day related things. And he got to be on the.
- [22:37]
A
Road, like literally anything. Right. Anything.
- [22:40]
B
So we. He always misses the holidays. Can you come and light the tree with me? And then you miss it. Cuz you go to the goddamn bathroom.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah. Like I think of like, like if you date a comedian, they are often working on New Year's Eve.
- [22:51]
B
Exactly. And so people hear the professional athletes and they put it back to money. That's why people are mad at her. They're like, oh, he's poor. And she's like trying to be mean to him because he's poor.
- [23:02]
A
Are people mad at her?
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, I see. I see it.
- [23:04]
A
No. How do they communicate that. How do. How do you. As an actor.
- [23:08]
B
Yeah.
- [23:09]
A
Learn that regular people watching the TV are mad at a fictional person.
- [23:13]
B
Because I read some of the Reddits and such. I shouldn't say that, but I do sometimes. My mom sends it to me.
- [23:19]
A
Your mom's reading the Radishville?
- [23:21]
B
Damn. They don't get it.
- [23:23]
A
They don't know what.
- [23:23]
B
Like today, my mom has never been on the Internet. Never. Since this show, she's been deep. She don't like people talking about me. So, yeah, my mom is reading, and she's letting me know. I try not to read, but my mom sends it to me. She's like, they don't get it. I'm like, I know. But, yeah, think about it like that. That's how I thought about it and just. And that's how I try to play it. Because if not, then she's a really, truly a horrible person. And I don't want to play. I don't want to play that person. And I don't want people to read her that way, but they will anyway. Some people are just jealous. I get. Some people see a confident woman and just immediately hate her. I'm used to that.
- [23:57]
A
So, yeah, I mean, I do think the show. If you look at the show's arc, it is, like, consistently you have this confident woman, and I think a lot of people, like, hate. Probably hate her just because she's a confident woman and the show is, like, defying you. She's just making more and more confident and, like, not changing it as a person. She's just doing slightly different.
- [24:17]
B
Isn't that amazing? I love it. I love it. And she's revolutionary in that way. The same reason people will hate her is the same reason a lot of people love her. Yeah. A lot of the feedback I get is I wish I could be more like her. You know, Like I said, I wouldn't have said that because I'm being mean to him. But no. Why? Where were you? Yeah, I want to be on a kids game. Like, it costs nothing. I brought you to the game.
- [24:37]
A
Yeah. And I don't.
- [24:38]
B
My tickets.
- [24:39]
A
Like, yeah, you do that all over again.
- [24:44]
B
But also, it's like, I don't think.
- [24:45]
A
I remember anyone being mad at, like, Jack Donaghy on 30 Rock.
- [24:48]
B
Exact. Men are mean to women all the time on television. She pouts for two seconds. All of a sudden, she's a monster. Like, get out of here. It's only because he's hot.
- [24:58]
A
Do you think. Do you think they're built to last?
- [25:03]
B
Well, that's the. That's what makes it interesting.
- [25:05]
A
Or do you want that? Do you want, like.
- [25:06]
B
Yeah, that would be great. She will maybe soften a bit, you know, and it's all compromised. So now she's like, oh, okay. Even though I was being honest, I could have said that in a different way. Like, so she learns that way, and then is it. Is he willing to stick around long enough for her to learn. Learn the lessons? Is he invested enough to meet her halfway and say, oh, these the type. Even though I think it's kind of stupid that you're so pressed to be on a kiss cam. This is what's important to her. Maybe I. I will take it more. I will take it more seriously, and that's what would make them work.
- [25:39]
A
So that is who you are. And if you're. That's. To be with this person means that's who they are. Yeah, it's like a pretty easy request.
- [25:46]
B
But that's hard for, you know, many, many couples, period. But that's what makes the whole story interesting to the viewers. And we shall see. I don't think she's that. That hard to love, and I think there's been worse portrayals of girlfriends on shows, but I think, yeah, her confidence, the fact that she is so all those things, like you said. All the things that she says is true. It makes people insecure, and I like that because she exists.
- [26:17]
A
You once said you rather Ava be fired than have any sort of redemption arc. Arc.
- [26:23]
B
Yes.
- [26:23]
A
Now she has.
- [26:24]
B
It depends on what that. What they. What people mean by that.
- [26:26]
A
You said redemption arc, so I will.
- [26:27]
B
Ask you, did I say that?
- [26:28]
A
You said it in variety in 2022.
- [26:31]
B
Okay. That was the first season.
- [26:32]
A
Yeah.
- [26:33]
B
Yeah. That's why maybe I. Yeah, maybe I'm.
- [26:35]
A
Now that things have changed. That's why I'm bringing it up. But you said you'd quit if she. But you were a joke. I'm sure.
- [26:40]
B
Of course, but.
- [26:42]
A
So you're. You're not gonna quit because she's had. I think last season would be as close as you're gonna get to some sort of redemption arc where she volunteer, though it's justified why she, like, is willing to take blame for the bribes, but even, like, the action of deciding to be the principal is, like, kind of a redemption y story.
- [27:07]
B
Sure. Because you're shown that she has other things she can do that is more. That she'd probably make more money doing, and she chose to stay at the school. So, yeah, that would be a redemption arc.
- [27:17]
A
And how do you feel about now that you've post redemption arc?
- [27:20]
B
Yeah, I think I didn't know Breath of Quinta's talent of not doing the ordinary and how that. How the character would evolve and how the stories would play out. That I was doing it. I was answering it in a very simple way. And she's become much more complex than that, than I was giving her credit for.
- [27:40]
A
I was thinking that one of the main drives of this show is Ava becoming more like Janine and Janine becoming more like Ava. Is that how you see it?
- [27:47]
B
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. She goes to the district, she comes back slamming outfits, little attitude, you know, more sure of herself. And Ava is becoming more optimistic and willing to see her co workers as friends and all of those things that Jeanine talks about in the first season. So, yeah, definitely.
- [28:12]
A
Yeah. I think especially the way she picks who goes to the baseball game. Did feel very, like, right, I'm giving.
- [28:16]
B
You a little something, but y' all know what I'm saying. I'm not gonna say it that way. That type of. I'm gonna pick only.
- [28:21]
A
I mean, like, I'm gonna pick only the characters that are the. The ones that she likes.
- [28:25]
B
Yeah.
- [28:25]
A
There is a. Bear with me. There's a sort of metal, textual element to metexual. Because Quinta is the creator of the show.
- [28:35]
B
Correct.
- [28:35]
A
I would say Janine and Ava represent sides of Quinta or sides of her.
- [28:40]
B
She said that she got loa. Who don't got loa in them.
- [28:43]
A
So, like, the show is an allegory of reconciling the light and dark. Darks parts of oneself.
- [28:48]
B
Okay.
- [28:48]
A
What do you think?
- [28:49]
B
Oh, yeah, that's the question.
- [28:51]
A
That's a. Well, I. That's a point. And then I go, what do you think about my point?
- [28:54]
B
The show is.
- [28:55]
A
I think the show. You can watch it as. These are sides of who's a dark Ava. Yeah.
- [29:01]
B
Why is she dark again? Because she's a confident woman. That.
- [29:05]
A
Yeah. That's darkness to you.
- [29:07]
B
I don't agree with that. I think what has she done is so bad. I think. I guess if you sting that that represents darkness.
- [29:15]
A
I don't think she represents darkness. I think light and darker can mean anything, but I think she's more cynical, annoying. Sure. Well, it's not. Light and dark does not mean good and bad.
- [29:24]
B
Oh, okay. Maybe I'm taking it wrong. I would say that Janine's lightness is also, like, proven to be not the most effectual. Yeah, exactly. Done.
- [29:32]
A
I think that's the point. I think the point is that all lightness or whatever this means is not the way to be a good teacher or person. And all darkness is not the way to be necessarily a good teacher or whatever. But there is some sort of.
- [29:44]
B
I mean, I guess you could say it that way. I would just say that nobody is all one thing.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah.
- [29:48]
B
You know, unless they're a sociopath or something. And I don't think we have any of those on the. On our sitcom.
- [29:54]
A
Well, you know, apparently. I mean, that's. That's what I'm trying to say that I think ultimately the show is about that.
- [30:00]
B
I mean, super well rounded, crafted characters, funny. Yeah.
- [30:03]
A
I'm just w. Saying the show is good. Do you feel like there's what. What is a part of Quinta that you think people don't see in so much as people equate you with Ava and people equate.
- [30:12]
B
She's running a whole freaking network sitcom that employs more than a hundred people and makes millions of decisions every day. And she's tiny while doing it. That's what they don't see. She's amazing. There's so much work.
- [30:26]
A
You seem to be. Was there any moment where you were not making fun of Quinta?
- [30:32]
B
What do you mean?
- [30:32]
A
I feel like you're very comfortable with if she is the boss. But you will make fun of the fact of her being short. Not unlike Ava does.
- [30:40]
B
Is there talking about me, Janelle?
- [30:42]
A
Yeah, you.
- [30:42]
B
Uh huh.
- [30:43]
A
Is that your dynamic? Like, do you feel like it?
- [30:45]
B
Oh, yeah. I always call it short, but I don't know if I'm just in character or whatever. But she is. She's tiny. It's amazing to see her walking around doing all stuff and she's so tiny. She really is. I think that's amazing. I can't imagine how hard that is. It's funny, but it's also like you have to be in these rooms with very powerful people. Mickey Mouse himself, I'm sure I've never been. And you have to get them to take you seriously. Like that's aura, as the kids say, you know, I wouldn't know. And power. That is admirable. So she could take my little short jokes. I'm sure she's heard them all the time. And then it probably for her even more solidifies that I am very much like the character I'm playing. Cause I've been hearing her say that in different interviews. They're like, oh, who's most likely the character? She's saying me. I'm like sis. But anyway. Yeah.
- [31:35]
A
Last year the always Sunny gang appeared on Abbott. And then this summer, the first episode of the Always Sunny season was sort of the reverse, where you see their perspective on it. What was it like playing Ava in that show's tonal universe?
- [31:50]
B
You know, I haven't watched that. I have not watched that.
- [31:53]
A
But I remember you're largely the narrator.
- [31:54]
B
Yeah, I'm the nar. I was kind of disappointed. I wanted to flip some shit over and punch somebody. But again, I think that's, like, smart. That's what people were expecting, that I would be the wild.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah.
- [32:03]
B
Janine got the curse and punch a. Whatever. She. What did she do? Punch a lot more.
- [32:07]
A
Yeah. She had to fight. She had to curse.
- [32:09]
B
Yeah.
- [32:10]
A
So I was a lot more than.
- [32:11]
B
I was more than. I was more disappointed that.
- [32:13]
A
But you do get to curse. I do.
- [32:15]
B
I curse all the time in my real life. So that. That was. That was nothing.
- [32:19]
A
Well, that's what it felt like. You're like, it.
- [32:21]
B
I did see people say that, like, oh, Janelle seems so comfortable over there. And I'm like, yeah, that's my real personality. Yeah. What was it like, week to do it?
- [32:31]
A
Yeah. What did it feel like? Did it feel like you're doing anything different? Did it feel like that was.
- [32:35]
B
That I was coasting over there. I probably should be. You know, I. Probably me, myself would be more in that universe than Abbott.
- [32:41]
A
So there was a thing. Parts where you were cursing, and you're like, of course you didn't curse on Abbott, but you're that character. Seems like it would be cursing this whole time. Ava would Ava. Or just sort of like, your voice. I mean, it just seems so natural.
- [32:55]
B
It wasn't, like, where I curse in conversation. I didn't know that. I don't ever know that until I watch my own standup where my mother says, like, you curse too much or whatever. I think I curse so conversationally that people don't realize that I'm cursing when I'm, you know, speaking as myself. And when I was on. On there. Damn, I lost my thought. Hold on. When I was over there, it just. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about it. It was scripted curse.
- [33:26]
A
Oh.
- [33:26]
B
What I was gonna say is, so we curse on our show. We do curse on Abby. They bleep it. And so far, every time I've gotten a curse word, that's like, I had that one scene where I'm talking about Oshan, and they do the bleep, bleep, bleep. And that was the joke. But anytime they write me a conversational curse, Where I don't say it. I think it's interesting that Ava is the only person that's not cursing on our. It's too expected from me. And thankfully they agree when I' Can I say something else or can we go a different direction? I don't want her saying fuck. Like, it's just so. She's already so kind of crass. It just would. It just seems out of place. But then on always sunny, then sure. You know? Yeah.
- [34:09]
A
Part of why I seem natural is like your standup, I would not say is dirty, but it is unfiltered.
- [34:13]
B
It is unfiltered. Yeah. I don't do dirt. I don't think I'm dirty. I do. I know. You know, I don't have many things out available to be seen that was done within the last five years or so. I think if and when I do stand up now, it'll be slightly different, but I definitely have a dark sense of humor.
- [34:37]
A
I would say that we will get into.
- [34:39]
B
Sure.
- [34:41]
A
So. But considering that, what's it like acting with kids? Cool.
- [34:45]
B
I like them. Like, no, my relationship with the kids on the show is. And I've said this before, I don't think child actors should exist. And so I just try to make it as fun for them as possible and make sure they're okay. Like, are y' all good? Are you having fun? Like, I don't want y' all to feel like this is a job. I can. I. I've been working since I was like, 7 years old, and I know how that felt. And so. And also, do you have a concept of what is happening and that you're on television? And of course there are people, there are kids who are in the business, and that's what they want to do. And I hope that that's most of our kids. So that's always my focus. So I'm truly being able when I'm. Cause that's how who see me as. So I'm like, yeah, teach me the TikTok and whatever you're saying, and I'll do it with you and just make sure you guys are having fun. So it's fun. I I Quintessa, I'm always riling them up, but I'm just trying to make sure that they're having fun. I. I don't have. I can't imagine having the. The maturity and the focus to be on a TV set. So I'm always amazed with them. They're so, like, good into three takes. I'm like, all right, what else are we doing? To have a tiny kid doing five, six takes is crazy.
- [35:57]
A
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, because they imagine some are kids. Like they all live in la, so.
- [36:02]
B
I mean, I think they do, but I know famous and hopefully I'm not lying, but I remember in our early seasons they had to go find kids. There aren't a lot of like dark skinned black kids in LA who are in acting. Acting, especially as a kid is a very expensive thing. You have to have a parent that has, is free to take you around and do auditions and stuff. And that doesn't really exist in the black community. So, yeah, we had to go find them. So a lot of them aren't professional actors now. They are because a lot of them have been growing up with the show and I think that's amazing. But yeah, a lot of people, a lot of them had never been on a, on a, on a set or anything before. So, yeah, I mean, we were learning together is how I felt. Yeah, like, shoot, I don't want to work either.
- [36:43]
A
Maybe that's what she meant by you riling them up.
- [36:45]
B
Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, you know? Yeah. I just wanted, I just want them to have fun and remember this experience is a good thing.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah. On your 2017 album Black and Mild, you said, I'm not an actress, I'm a clown.
- [36:58]
B
I did. And at the time, that sounds like me.
- [37:01]
A
You weren't an actress. But now.
- [37:05]
B
Yeah, I'm an actress. Yeah, I am. That's wild. I was very much against that for a long time. For a long time. Meaning the length of the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I am an actress. It took four Emmy nominations for me to, for me to admit that to myself. A very unava like state of being. Because she would have been like, I am the best actor ever.
- [37:30]
A
Why was the resistance?
- [37:32]
B
Because I love comedy and I know I'm good at it and I didn't, I haven't proven myself fully in that, in that, in the way that I want to in that medium. So I was holding on to it as if that was the only thing I can do. And I know that that's not true just from my life experiences, but I was just like, yeah, I need you gu. Whoever I was talking to, to know that I can do this other thing, you know, really well. And also got, you know, this is also like pandemic related. I felt like I was right on the edge of getting what, you know, doing whatever it is. I don't really have a vision of things, but I Was on my way is how I felt. And in the pandemic kind of. And then I got this. So I was just like, no, that my other thing is what I really do. And this. I'm. I'm. Yeah, I'm good at this, too. But, you know, that type that was me being insolent.
- [38:26]
A
Like, it did feel like you were a comedian that, like, people in comedy were paying attention to and, like, what's next? And like, generally, I had an experience with you that I've had with a handful of comedians, which is like, the first time I see you, I was like, how is this person both new to me and so good and so assured and so fully realized. And often it is the case where it's like, people who started to comedy slightly later in life, they just have the benefit of living a life and having things to talk about, having a sense of who they are broadly. How did the life you had before you do comedy focus you in terms of what do you want to talk about when you were deciding to become a comedian?
- [39:09]
B
Not necessarily what I wanted to talk about, but how I went about pursuing it in that I had had children and a husband at that time and no time to waste. So a lot of comedians, even though they start young, they are. They don't have any responsibilities. So a lot of them have an alcoholic phase or a drug phase or a partying phase. I did none of that. I just went to the show. I did my show and I went home because I got to get people to school the next day and stuff. So it gave me a focus that, you know, a lot of comics didn't have. So you can start young and waste 10 years. Years.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah.
- [39:42]
B
You know what I mean? So it's. And then works out that we kind of started at the same time, because that's when you lock in, like, oh, I have no health insurance, you know, whatever. And then that's when comp. Comedians.
- [39:53]
A
When you moved to New York, did you feel a phenomenon where people like, how is this person just moved here? And so. Because I felt like you.
- [40:00]
B
Well, yes, and knowing that. So I. I'm sure, you know, I started in Midwest, and by the time I got here, all those comics that I was performing with in New York had already seen me. They had come. That's how I knew to even where to go to. And also, I remember at that time, that was like the heyday of comedy podcasts. So I really was, like, listening, taking notes. These are the shows you should do. Oh, this person started here. This person you Know, this is the show you should do. This is the booker for. They would say. It was so much free information. I remember I'd be getting. I would get pissed because people would ask me, like, how do you get started? I'm like, the answers are all out there, you know? Like, I would always be like, you're not serious? Because the answer is there, you know? So I don't think people who were already good were surprised to find me. I know, like, now that I'm kind of out of the scene, I don't really know who the new comedians are. So when, like, Chris Rock came across me, he had no idea. But that's. Cause he's out of the.
- [41:01]
A
Yeah.
- [41:02]
B
He's not at the open mics or the. Or the smaller comedian run show. So that makes sense. And then anyone else who was like a road comic or whatever had heard of me. Cause I was like, heavy on the road at that time.
- [41:14]
A
Do you have a sense of how Chris. Who told Chris about you?
- [41:17]
B
He saw me, I believe, at the Cellar and just didn't tell me. And then, like, maybe asked for my info and then called me after, and I had no idea he had seen me.
- [41:27]
A
Yeah. So the story is there's a guy.
- [41:30]
B
So he has a guy, Chuck Sklar, who told him to come see me. That's what it was. Told him to come see me. I wrote on a show with him. 50 cents for a show. 50 cents for sketches show was my first writing job. Chuck Sklar was on that show. He told Chris about me. Chris came and saw me and then called me later. Yep.
- [41:46]
A
Do you have any memories from 50 Cent working on the 50 Cent sketch?
- [41:49]
B
Yeah. He was so scary, but cool with me. Scary to everyone else. Cool with me. He would come in, he said, it needs more. More money and bitches in the fucking sketches. Like, this is too square. It was a lot of white dudes writing. And I was like, yeah, that's what I said, 50. And I also agree more. And. And money. And I. Yeah, I thought it was fun. It was loose. He had a. A lawyer that seemed like he was in a mob. Other rappers would come through. That was. Yeah, that was a pretty cool job. It sounds like a cool job. That's a pretty cool job.
- [42:25]
A
So I believe that he had just.
- [42:27]
B
Launched his underwear line. That was weird. Anyway, go ahead.
- [42:30]
A
Wait, I might ask you. No, Feel free to just remember things.
- [42:33]
B
I. I remember because I remember he came. I came in, and he, like, put two packages in my hand. Like, oh, I think he was launching a lot of things around that time. But he was cool. He was always nice to me. But people were scared of him. As they should be. Yeah, that's how you command respect.
- [42:47]
A
Yeah. So you met Todd Berry, I believe, and then through Todd, you also met, I believe, Hannibal around this time. Hannibal Buress. And then like Todd introduced you to Eugene Mirman. And then you're just sort of like, when I move here, it seemed like you're like bravely part of the Brooklyn comedy scene at that time. Since the Brooklyn comic scene is not really like it was like, obviously there are still shows there, but the.
- [43:12]
B
No, I don't know.
- [43:13]
A
I'm telling you.
- [43:13]
B
Yeah, it's not.
- [43:15]
A
It's not. People do it, but it does not feel like a specific community of like only this thing does anything. No.
- [43:23]
B
Yeah, there is no community anymore.
- [43:25]
A
So can you describe what it's like for the children who are not around then? What it was like?
- [43:29]
B
What it was like the Brooklyn comedy scene. Okay, gather round, kids. It was no.
- [43:34]
A
Or what was it even like for you?
- [43:35]
B
So I came in during the height, the rise of the alt scene, which I thought was very exciting. So you have like the Chris Rock era. Those are the superstar comedians. And then you have the. I miss like the Def Jam era, where everything was like urban comedy. And then this started and then you had the road comedy. There's so many segments of comedians. I don't know if that still exists. But you have the road comics who just are always on the road and they do all the Chuckle Huts all across the land and everything. And then in New York and maybe in la, I hadn't gone out there. There was the alt comedians who were. Because they were doing alternative, what was called alternative comedy, weren't really playing in the clubs. And so they started doing comedy in like rock band venues and the back of a bar and a roller skating, like, wherever. And I think Eugene Mirman was like one of the first people to do that. And the lawyers, he wouldn't. He. They wouldn't pass him at the Cellar. They wouldn't let him perform at the Cellar, which I don't know how he would go. I don't know. But yeah. And so I came in during that time. And so it was good for me in that I got to make a name for myself before and without having to kiss ass at the clubs. You know, I don't think I was alternative. I was alternative in that I was a black person not doing, quote unquote, urban comedy. So that put me in that category. But it also got Me the money faster.
- [45:02]
A
Yeah.
- [45:03]
B
Yeah.
- [45:04]
A
Do you. You talked about when you started out, you had a family at the time, which is different than lots to me.
- [45:09]
B
You still got a family. What? They're dead. No.
- [45:14]
A
Yeah. That's all we talked about. The tragic demise of your entire family.
- [45:18]
B
So many gotchas on this podcast. I swear.
- [45:21]
A
It was like a sort of Mrs. Mael situation. Did you watch Mrs. Mael?
- [45:25]
B
Sure. Didn't.
- [45:26]
A
Sure. So Mrs.
- [45:27]
B
I'm a comedian. I'm like, I'm not watching.
- [45:28]
A
I know. I didn't know if you, like, read the Mrs. Mael wik Wikipedia page. So essentially Mrs. Mael is.
- [45:34]
B
But it's great. Yeah.
- [45:35]
A
And she is. She's raising those kids. And then, like, unlike Mrs. Maze, she has a reason that she does stand up for the first time and then she does stand up and then, like, the kids are not a major part of the show.
- [45:46]
B
How.
- [45:49]
A
How was it for you? Like, what?
- [45:50]
B
You know, now that you say that, I think that's why I didn't watch Ms. Maisel. It was like, too. I was. It was. I was like, hey. Too. Similar to what I'm going through. How? What?
- [46:01]
A
How did you do it?
- [46:02]
B
Like, I think I had an excellent husband who I trusted to watch his children while I was out working.
- [46:09]
A
Yeah.
- [46:10]
B
That's really it. People act like it was a whole. I was lucky in that way. A lot of women don't have that. Before I even started comedy, I remember being out on mom nights and having my friend's husband called to ask where the ketchup is. Shit. Like, my husband wasn't like that, so. Or how do you. What does your kid. What does this kid eat? Shit like that?
- [46:30]
A
No.
- [46:30]
B
My ex husband was like an excellent dad. And so even though he didn't understand what the hell I was doing, I knew I could leave my kids while I went and trust him to keep them alive and fed and on the go while I was doing it.
- [46:45]
A
How did you know standup was the thing you should be doing?
- [46:47]
B
I really enjoyed it. That was it. Yeah.
- [46:52]
A
I asked partly because. So in your Netflix half hour.
- [46:54]
B
Which one?
- [46:55]
A
The one you did.
- [46:56]
B
Fifteen minutes.
- [46:57]
A
The second one was half hour.
- [46:58]
B
Okay, sure. Yes.
- [46:59]
A
Which was great. It's really very good.
- [47:02]
B
The second one.
- [47:03]
A
Yeah, they're both good, but the second one. Actually, they're both great.
- [47:06]
B
Okay. Yeah. That was during the pandemic.
- [47:08]
A
That was during Pandemic. You do a lot of stuff about the pandemic. I think it's some of the best material I've ever done by the People don't know.
- [47:13]
B
It was during the pandemic. Like, I was scared out of my mind. I do remember that, like, it was my first time outside. I didn't practice. I remember we got a date and they were like, okay, you have like, maybe I think we had like a month to go do shows or what? And I, I was like, I'm not going to. The COVID is going around. I'm not doing it. I remember the seller had like, a glass box. You can do. I did maybe did that. I did a couple outside shows where people watched us from cars and blew their horns instead of laughing. That was traumatic. And I maybe did three. Yeah, three of those shows. And I did not practice. I practiced in my head. And so when people are like, oh, it was amazing, I'm always surprised because I didn't think. I, I thought I could have done better if I had, if I had time to. And I, I, I remember being afraid in my body. Like, I'm going to catch COVID out here trying to, trying to do this special. So thank you.
- [48:09]
A
It's a really great special, and I do think it. One of my favorite jokes is the sort of section about Uber for those who haven't seen you. Can you explain this sort of general premise?
- [48:18]
B
I mean, it's the, the premise is women are unsafe traveling by any means. Even Uber, which at that time had come out as to being on the subway or on public transportation or walking the streets at the dead of night, which is when I used to be outside in New York because I'm a comedian and would be at night. And also the concept of men not knowing how in danger women feel all the time. So not only us feeling in danger, but men not sympathizing. So that was the basis of the joke and how men would act. And this is true. And also so many other women had said it. And it's the same question. So where they would ask if you live, do you live here alone? When they pull up to you and me trying not to assume that every man is a awful predator, just could not understand why they don't know that. That's a scary question to ask a woman. And why would they expect an honest answer to that? So the joke is. Yeah, basically you have to, like, lie and. Yeah. So yeah, yeah.
- [49:27]
A
And then the act out part, or to the part where you're describing, where you don't fall asleep in the Ubers or whatever, how do you make that right? The watching a joke part, you're not threatening, you're not Feel threatened for you. But it's like that is the underlying idea of the joke. But you're essentially talking about opening the windows and you fart on purpose and stuff.
- [49:47]
B
Yeah, I made it into a fart joke. I mean, that's what I do. I talk about serious things and then I put something silly on it to clear the air. Right. Because I farted anyway. I got the worst look just now from the galley. But yeah, that's what comedy is the best to me. Talking about dark things and making it light in a way that people will accept it and take it and not feel as if you're speaking to or about them.
- [50:16]
A
Yeah, I think one of the. The things that I. A signature thing of you is because you're so conversational, people will be surprised when you just say something that is like much darker than they was even on their radar. There's in that CO1, you're talking about how much you like being alone or something like that. And then you're. And it's like, nice. It's like. And then you see something like, we only lost 500,000 people.
- [50:36]
B
I mean, you know, and that was.
- [50:38]
A
At that time of the facts.
- [50:40]
B
That's the kind of comedy I like. Of course, there's different. Different kind of comedies, comedians. Sometimes. I'm working on being sillier. I definitely worked on being more that special. I definitely worked on act outs more. I used to be very stationary and monotone. I was in the Todd Berry school of comedy for a long time, which I love as well. But I was like, let me find my own thing. I wanna move around. And it also offers me more opportunity for surprise. Like you said, an act out. Like when I talk about going to space and I'm gonna do that thing, I like to do a silly thing. Cause again, I'm always talking about something serious. With the Uber thing, I was talking about something that's true that actually happened. Maybe not the fart maybe. Or maybe the fart. Maybe. I had the thought and I couldn't fart on command. I was like, maybe I was like, oh, if I could fart right now, that'd be cool. But. But that's true. I've had men ask me that. I've had to lie like, no, I have four roommates, or I have a huge husband who just got out of prison or whatever. Or had my friend call me with a male voice to be on speakerphone. Like all those things we have to do to. Not to. To. To not be in danger. And then you don't Want to accuse someone of being dangerous and then finding out that they are just so many things that women have to think of to go home. That's what the joke is about. To just go home. Yeah.
- [51:56]
A
Do you have a sense of where your darker sense of humor came from?
- [51:59]
B
Ooh, I'm. Because I'm. My brain. Because I'm always thinking about dark stuff. Yeah. Where did that come from? I don't know. I'm just.
- [52:09]
A
Or start. Do you remember? Or the first time you noticed you had a darker.
- [52:12]
B
I'm just. I'm curious person. And a lot of dark shit happens. I'm curious. I'm, like, overly empathetic a lot. I think that's a lot of comedians. We feel everything, and we're just trying to make sense of horrible stuff and relate and have people know they're not alone. And maybe even having. And experiencing things and having those thoughts and thinking about it. Maybe I ruminate more than most people, and that's why I've turned it into a profession. But that's. It came from my brain. I don't know where it came from, but. Yeah. And. But I think most of the things all start with things that have happened to me. I think also that's why the. The length of time between my material happens, too, because I have to live life and things have to happen to me to feel like I need something to say. I'm not interested in just coming out with special after special after special and having it be just shit I made up.
- [53:08]
A
Yeah.
- [53:09]
B
I'm like, oh, this thing happened to me. It was sad. It was dark. I noticed something. I read something. I heard something. My friend experienced something. How can I make this funny and relatable and have people feel less alone in their experiences?
- [53:20]
A
I think one of my favorite jokes of yours, I think, starts from that, which is the joke about the gorilla joke. Can you explain the premise for people and where it started? Yeah.
- [53:29]
B
Yeah. I used to be very online.
- [53:32]
A
Facebook.
- [53:32]
B
Right, Facebook. Oh. I was big on it. Doing jokes. I was writing jokes in the same. Still am on social media. I post a lot, but you never see me. I don't know if people notice that I post as my character. You'll see me as Ava, but you never see me. I'll post what I'm looking at, but you never see me. And the same thing with Facebook. I would never post pictures or myself or even what I'm doing. I would always just write jokes. And I got pretty big on there from that. And so, as with everything, there's People who are mean to you as it still stands here in 2025. And so, yeah, somebody came out. I was, I would have a, you know, you do a innocuous race joke and then you get people mad at you. And somebody called me a gorilla. And I remember my thought was that that's funny. You know, I'm not a gorilla, so I thought that was funny. You know, I didn't take it any kind of way. I know that that's a common racial thing that racists say that, you know, black people are apes and all of that stuff. But I just think the idea of that is funny because. And the joker is, if you truly thought you were talking to a gorilla, wouldn't it be such a waste of life to not ask it gorilla things?
- [54:52]
A
I don't, you know, it reflects this sort of.
- [54:55]
B
Like I think I said, where's your sense of wonder? Which I think a lot of angry racist people are missing you. They're missing wonder, they're missing life, they're missing interactions with people who aren't like themselves. And so they don't. You're not even curious enough to say, what's up? What happens in gorilla land?
- [55:14]
A
Yeah, it's.
- [55:15]
B
It is. You're not curious enough to ask a black person, what's your life about? What do you do? How do you. How are we similar? How are we different?
- [55:22]
A
Yeah.
- [55:22]
B
And so that's what the joke is about.
- [55:23]
A
It's like the silliest way of capturing how close minded this person is.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah.
- [55:28]
A
That's that they are. That Their insult is that you're like, it should be opening them up to like a world of like, isn't that amazing?
- [55:35]
B
I'm a gorilla and I'm doing the same shit you did. We both on Facebook, like, why wouldn't you. Why wouldn't that blow your fucking mind? So that's a joke. But I was very serious about it. I just. That's how I thought about it. Yeah. And that did happen. And I also used to write like racialist people. I used to write them like, what's your deal? And frequently they were super sad people. I know people say that anyway and people think it's like a clapback, but it's true. Nobody who has joy or anything happening in life has time to just like chase people down and call them gorillas, you know? And so that guy in particular, I think he, if I remember, I do remember correctly, he was a vet. He was like currently in the hospital.
- [56:20]
A
So it was what you say in the album, like, literally that SAT guy.
- [56:23]
B
That was.
- [56:24]
A
I assumed it's like, oh, you probably combined.
- [56:26]
B
No, it was that guy.
- [56:27]
A
So he's a vet.
- [56:28]
B
He was in the hospital, in the house. He sent me a picture of him, like with his oxygen or whatever thing. And yeah, we went back and forth and I think I ended like, oh, so I'm going to his house for Thanksgiving. Hahaha. That's the silliness on it. But it was just like, yeah, just as I thought. Somebody with no wonder and nothing going on that just. And that chose to be mean instead of curious.
- [56:49]
A
What do you do with that knowledge?
- [56:52]
B
Be sad all the time.
- [56:57]
A
That's a good answer.
- [56:57]
B
Where do my dog thoughts come from? From doing things like that. Yeah, being curious, Being into people's psyches.
- [57:03]
A
Yeah, that's the downside of being curious. Right. It's like he was so incurious. You were too curious for now.
- [57:08]
B
Now I know that just exists, you know.
- [57:11]
A
So the last time I saw you do standup, it was largely about how. How the people coming up to you and wanting you to be Ava and you not necessarily particularly being her in the way that they perform it. Yes, yes. Can you talk about your real world experience and then what made you do that material? How has that evolved as you've been on the show longer?
- [57:35]
B
So I think. When was that? When the show first started?
- [57:39]
A
It's hard to remember.
- [57:39]
B
Okay.
- [57:40]
A
I mean, that's probably, probably.
- [57:42]
B
I mean, if I were to do standup today, I'd probably do the same type of thing, but maybe have a slightly different angle on it now that I've experienced it multiple times and I understand people's or try have tried to understand people's motivation and why they approach me in that way. But when I was. I'm gonna assume it was when this show first started and I was still very much reckoning with fame and things even. It's wild. Cause even though I was pursuing standup so hard, I had never thought about fame. And I also only thought about. About comedy fame, which is very niche. I was okay with that. I'm like, oh, if these are comedy fans, I mean, you've been most people. Like, I still have a Facebook. I don't post there often, but those are people who were like at my first show, you know what I mean? They've been following me. So I feel like, oh, these are people who know what I'm about. They know my motivation, they know I'm a quote unquote good person. So I value that. And so with this show, these are people who only know me as a character. And that bothers me. I think the same way way being an. Called an actor was bothering me. I'm like, you don't know me, you know, that type of thing. And so now as the show has gone on, I have leaned into the. Not leaned in or accepted, you know, my new.
- [58:53]
A
Come to terms with.
- [58:54]
B
Come to terms. I, I realize that most people are approaching me with joy, not, you know, malice. So I'm, I, I handle it better. I also know now never to go outside, so it happens less. So. Yeah, that's, that's, that's what has changed. Yeah. The first couple of years of the show was very hard for me mentally. Not only fame, but right out of the pandemic. Very sad.
- [59:30]
A
Yeah.
- [59:31]
B
And, but that, that's, that's also where standup has helped me. Like every performer is still le. Living their real life where things happen and have to put on a performance, you know, and then sometimes you don't want to do that in public when you're just walking around.
- [59:45]
A
So. Yeah. And also I met. Yeah. Also post Covid strangers meeting you is seemingly.
- [59:49]
B
Why are you so close to me?
- [59:50]
A
Yeah, I feel like host, you, you opened for Chris Rock in 2017, 2018, and felt like post that there was like, I'm gonna be like one of the great stand up comedians. And then Covid happens. As we mentioned, you were on this show. I think you are a great stand up comedian, but you do not. You are on this show. The show shoots 20 over. Where does that feeling currently live with you instead?
- [60:17]
B
You're still gonna do that? Just maybe not on the timeline that I thought. Yeah, still gonna do that in a short amount of time that we have off. I still do it. I'm like, yeah, still. Still got it. That makes me feel good. So I know it's available to me whenever I'm ready.
- [60:33]
A
And the goal is to be one.
- [60:35]
B
Of the greatest stand up comedians, you know? Yeah. I mean, I thought that was not the female that used to bother me. You're one of my favorite female. No, I'm one of your favorite comedians. One of the greats. I would love to be and I think I could be.
- [60:50]
A
Have you been offered an hour?
- [60:52]
B
Yeah.
- [60:52]
A
And you turned down?
- [60:53]
B
I've had. No, I didn't turn down. It's. It's open.
- [60:55]
A
It's just like an off.
- [60:56]
B
My new goal is this, this coming summer. I hope to shoot it in the spring so that it comes out in the shop. But I've had a deal for like three Years now. But I just don't want to put out bullshit. I really don't. Even if people don't want to like it. I needed to. I need to like it.
- [61:11]
A
Yeah.
- [61:11]
B
So. And thankfully, for the first time in my life, I don't need the money. I don't, you know, And I can put it out at my leisure. So my fan base feels only growing anyway. So it doesn't. And, yeah, I'm only getting hotter, you know?
- [61:25]
A
Yeah.
- [61:25]
B
So I could take my time.
- [61:28]
A
So now it's time for our final segments called a laughing round. It's like a lightning round because it's comedy podcast. It's the laughing round.
- [61:33]
B
Okay.
- [61:34]
A
These are shorter, easier questions. You can just ask interviewer. I try my best.
- [61:38]
B
I knew what I was getting into doing a comedy podcast. Man, this is the I like to talk about. I wish I could.
- [61:42]
A
If it wasn't for the show. I had a lot of really good questions.
- [61:45]
B
Catch me in 30 years when we go off the air.
- [61:47]
A
Yeah.
- [61:49]
B
In our literally 80th season.
- [61:51]
A
Can't wait. Do you have a favorite joke? Joke? Like a street joke? Ooh, knock, knock joke.
- [61:59]
B
Damn. I'm sure I do. I. That I can't.
- [62:01]
A
Okay, we'll pass. I won't even ask it. Is there a joke from another comedian you wish you could steal that you could have had in your act? It's not like you're stealing it. It's another dimension where this is. Everything's the same. But this is a joke you get to tell.
- [62:12]
B
Not really. So here's the thing. I'm one of those comedians. God, I'm so eager to speak, but I don't take tags or anything from other people. I don't like it because I always feel like. So I have two comedians I will take even. Here's what I thought from without being like, so I used to get so mad, like, how dare you? And it's not only that I feel like, oh, I'm funnier than these people. I always feel like, oh, so Rory Wood Jr. Is somebody. If he's like, hey, I had a thought. I'm gonna listen. I'm never gonna say it because I'm always like, oh, that's funny. But that's where you are. Would say, I am still of the mind that my. And that's why it takes long.
- [62:47]
A
Yeah.
- [62:47]
B
I want to say what I want to say. And I'm like, not only are you giving me something, I wouldn't say you've led my brain in a direction that it probably wouldn't have gone now. You waylaid me from where I was going and I got to get back there and so I can't. There's jokes I love, but I don't know if it's nothing I would have said. Yeah.
- [63:06]
A
Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian, living or dead, you are willing to.
- [63:10]
B
To share short story? I've never told this on a podcast. Let me give it to you. So, Chris Rock. When I. When I started touring with Chris Rock, I was poor. I was touring, but I was poor. I was like separated. I was very like, what's the word? Pridefully, like, I'm not going to use any of my ex husband's. Not that he would not. He had much money, but I was like, I'm not going to take like money from my children. I'm only going to spend what I've made from standup on this pursuit, which is a very, like, this isn't a pursuit that it's not a regular, like job. You know, it's nothing that I don't know what the end goal is, but I'm just like, I'm going to be out here, I'm going to do the road. I was poor. Point. Point is, so when he hit me up, I. My clothes were ratty. I was like living. I was touring, I was living out of my suitcase. I had these boots that were like mad dusty, but they were my favorite because they were comfortable. I had this cardigan from H and M that I wore to like, threads. And I met him up on his first leg. It was in North Carolina. I opened. No, no, no. It was our first show in North Carolina. Our first show was actually at Jack Black's studio in Tennessee.
- [64:26]
A
Then we went Jack White's.
- [64:28]
B
Jack White's. Jack White's studio in. Oh, it was so cool. But anyway, did that show and then we did North Carolina. And after this happened, I remember I was sitting next to him and I remember him looking at my boots. After this, what I'm about to say happened, I thought back, like, oh, yeah, he was looking at my boots. I did that first leg of that tour with him. We did like five shows in that area. I flew back to New York and then I was supposed to meet him again back on the road. And in between there, I got an email from his assistant that said, chris Rock would like to fly you to LA to get glammed. And I didn't take it any kind of way. I was like, this is amazing, like Pretty Woman or, you know, whatever. And I Also, didn't it take think I looked that bad? Because I was so used to looking bad. And also I started with white dudes. So I was in the Louis CK black T shirt era. And I was also consciously and unconsciously trying to unfeminize myself. So I don't get those remarks or, you know, all the shit that I was getting when I started. When I started, I would wear miniskirts and stuff. And I quickly let that go. And so I, yeah, started dressed in dusty and. And that ain't black shit. We don't we not dusty. I forgot who I was. And so, yeah, Chris Rock flew me to la, put me in a hotel, had his stylist come to me with a rack of clothes, had a makeup artist come and all these things that I knew I just didn't have money. He just thought I didn't know how to dress. He just assumed that I just looked like shit and gave me like a full wardrobe. And then I met him back on the road and I remember I got on the elevator, I was all glammed up like proud daughter. Like I was so proud, like, huh. You know. But I didn't say anything. And he didn't say anything, which I appreciate. He wasn't like, see what I did.
- [66:12]
A
I've done for you.
- [66:14]
B
He just looked at me, he said, you look nice. Oh, he said, you're doing well for yourself. That's what he said. And then we continued on with the tour. So that was amazing. And to this day he hasn't. You know, that's rare for somebody to do something for you and not mention it in the public or. Or pull it up every time they see you. Remember when I fucking. Da, da, da. And to a lot of comedians, credits a lot of men also for men to do that for you as a woman. Hannibal has done that for me many times. I've gone into a room and they've been like, Hannibal mentioned your name for this. And he. And I have just seen him and he wouldn't have told me. So I really appreciate that. So that's that story. That's good.
- [66:54]
A
Thank you. Let's do one last one. You could pick of these options.
- [66:57]
B
I had a shirt that was $500. I've never even seen things that expensive.
- [67:02]
A
You have that shirt.
- [67:03]
B
I do. I'm much fitter now, so it doesn't fit me. I think I maybe gave. I think I've only kept the boots at this point. I've given away most of the things, but yeah, never seen things so expensive. Anyway. Go ahead.
- [67:16]
A
All right, here are the options. What's something that people think is comedy that you think isn't? Is comedy something that people think is comedy that you think isn't? That's an option. We only have time probably for one. So joke that never worked, that you think is funny, that you'll go to your grave is funny, or best time you ever bombed. I'll ask any of these questions.
- [67:34]
B
I think everything can be comedy if you have. If you have good intent. I always say. I feel like people can feel what your intent is. People can know when you just talking to just be talking shit or talking to antagonize or talking to be mean or talking to be divis. Divisive. Is it funny? You know what I mean? Even when people like Joe, quote unquote, jokes that are awful, it's always from a mean place. You're laughing. Cause you're kind of like, oh, finally I could get away with that. That don't mean it's funny. But I feel like most things. If your intent is to make someone laugh with joy, which is always my intent, either with joy or surprise, then anything can be comedy. So that's the answer to that. The second one I can't think of.
- [68:20]
A
Best time you bombed.
- [68:21]
B
Best time I bombed. It was at Dolphins, I believe, in Illinois, like upstate Illinois. It was a private event. I had said that I had a full hour, and I really only had like 20 minutes. But it was like $300, which was like the most I had made at that point. And at that time, I would really stick to the contract. Like, they signed me up for an hour. I'm doing, you know, to the letter, you know, And I was bombing so hard. And at that time, you know, in Illinois, there's many. There's still sundown towns. And I used to do all those rooms where it's just all white people. And I can tell that they've never listened to a black woman talk for this long about the shit. The dark shit I was talking about at that time. And the silence. And I was dressed because it was like a gala or some shit that was in heels. And I. And I just. I was just talking about this on something. I left my body. I remember, like, floating and watching myself and feeling faint and then like, re entering my body. Like, don't faint. And then re entering and finishing that fucking hour. And then being like, thank you. To like, silence. And then going home and then went to an open mic the next day.
- [69:41]
A
Thank you so much.
- [69:42]
B
You're welcome. Thank you.
- [69:43]
A
So much.
- [69:44]
B
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
- [69:45]
A
Oh, you. Thank. Thank you. That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox, and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York Magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod you're back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.