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- [00:01]
A
Support for this show comes from pure leaf iced tea. When you find yourself in the afternoon slump, you need the right thing to make you bounce back. You need pure leaf iced tea. It's real brewed tea made in a variety of bold flavors with just the right amount of naturally occurring caffeine. You're left feeling refreshed and revitalized so you can be ready to take on what's next. The next time you need to hit the reset button, grab a pure leaf iced tea. Time for a tea break. Time for a pure leaf. This month on Explain it to Me, we're talking about all things wellness. We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well. Collagen, smoothies and cold plunges, Pilates classes and fitness trackers. But what does it actually mean to be well? Why do we want that so badly? And is all this money really making us healthier and happier? That's this month on Explain it to Me, presented by Pure Leaf.
- [01:04]
B
Stepbrothers has so many of these moments where we're literally about to start laughing, our eyes are starting to water, and we're starting to making these strange faces. There's one where I could point out that will will almost fully loses it.
- [01:22]
A
This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, writer at Vulture and author of comedy book. My guest today is John C. Reilly, one of the great actors, comedies or otherwise, of at least my lifetime. We talk about Lockhard stepbrother Chicago, his creative relationship with Paul Thomas Anderson and Mr. Romantic, the cabaret character he's been performing as around the country, who recently put out an album of standards from the American songbook. So here is John C. Reilly. I am here with John C. Reilly. Thank you for joining me.
- [01:55]
B
My pleasure.
- [01:55]
A
So the first question I like to ask, what is the funny thing that happened to you this week?
- [02:00]
B
Well, I was on Fire island in New York, and we have a lot of family and stuff that comes out there. We end up going out there every summer to this little cottage. And when the ferry leaves and people that we love are leaving on the ferry, we always stand at the ferry dock and sing happy trails to you. Everyone said happy trails to you until we meet again. And it's usually this kind of like, you know, sweet moment where, you know, and we wave goodbye. Sorry, we wave goodbye to the person. Well, this time I was totally unaware of it, but someone was like, late to the boat and we started sing happy trails to you. And this person was late and the guy was like, no, that's it. No one else on the boat. And this girl's like, are you kidding me? I literally just got. And we're like, until we meet again. She's like, you have to let me on the boat. Happy trail to you. And it was like our joyful moment was like the soundtrack to her nightmare. Yeah, it's like that. It's.
- [03:07]
A
What's nice about that story is that is the funny story she tells. And you're like essentially the side character, but you get it from your perspective.
- [03:14]
B
I don't know if it was so funny to her so that you can.
- [03:17]
A
Imagine Rashomon version of that story. So I'm excited to talk to you about Mr. Romantic, which is the new solo show you've been doing recently. But I wanted to start with a recent list the Ringer did of the top 100 movie performances of the 21st century. I don't know if you saw, but.
- [03:32]
B
I was asked to do it. Oh, cool.
- [03:34]
A
You're on the list. You're on your. Duke Cox and Rockhardt is on the list. And it's one of the few comedy performances on the list at all. And I think it's interesting to talk about in terms of your process because it is a. You know, as they know, it just doesn't feel like a parody of a biopic. It just feels like this person now exists. It feels like you. It just feels like a movie about it. Lately, I have watched.
- [03:56]
B
Definitely feels like a parody.
- [03:58]
A
Your performance is grounded enough. There are scenes that are like, obviously there's people are going.
- [04:03]
B
But it is satire.
- [04:04]
A
Yes, it is satire, but because the tone of the movie is rich, I was. I was wondering if you felt like there was a day on set that you can remember that really felt like you got the character and how you wanted it.
- [04:17]
B
Yeah, there were a lot of moments like that along the way. Because you're right, we. That movie is much more detailed and well made than any comedy satire has the right to be. And it's because music lovers were populated the whole behind the scenes of that movie. Jake Kasdan loves music. Judd Apatow is like. His family is like. I think his parents were involved in the music business. So then all the producers and songwriters and musicians behind the scenes who are writing all the original songs, all really deeply loved music. So we wanted the instruments to be the correct period instruments. We wanted the clothing to be exactly right. In fact, our satire of biopics was better made than a lot of the actual biopics that were satirizing. And part of it was because all the Musicians behind the scenes, all the people who love music were like, we have to do this exactly right. So that it seems like we. We got the, you know, the underlying stuff, right, Whether it was, like, what Brian Wilson was like in his craziest days during Smile and. Or, you know, what Dylan was like. And there was this one moment that actually was. It's gonna sound ridiculous maybe, because the song is literally a. A satire of a Bob Dylan song called Royal Jelly. You know, I. I can't even remember some of the words right now, but it's a stream of consciousness song that's like, you know, the lamp hose spoke to the teapot and the thing, you know, like, and you don't. And, you know, it was during Dylan. It was like kind of a riff on Dylan's era of, what is he talking about? What does this song mean? You know, and my band is standing backstage like, what the is this about? Like, I have no idea. But the song, as it was written, was written by this guy, Dan Byrne, who's. Who really does sound like Bob Dylan when he sings. He just naturally has that sound to his voice. He's a Jewish guy, like Bob Dylan, who has that tone to his voice, and he wrote that song. And he wrote a lot of the Bob Dylan and protest songs in the movie. And so he wrote Royal Jelly. And lyrically, it's. You don't know, it's literally opaque on purpose. You can't tell what the hell it actually means. But the structure of song musically is really Dylan. Like, it has this emotion, emotion to it. So I remember standing there in one of those. I think it was the Palace Theater downtown where we're going to be doing Mr. Romantic in October, standing on stage, rehearsing, and I was really playing the song, you know, on the guitar and singing, you know, the mouse with the overbite, you know, like crazy songs. But I was really committing to it. And that is what I did for that whole movie. Like, even though the material was absurd and satiric, I committed with my whole heart to it. And so as I was singing it, I was, like, getting really emotional, almost starting to cry while I was singing this song. And I was like, isn't it crazy that I'm sitting here rehearsing this song that's supposed to be a nonsense, funny song, but musically it's moving me in this very deep way. And then I looked out into the audience and Jake Kasdan was sitting there, like, with, like, his eyes welled up, staring at me. And he was having the same Experience. So there's something about music that's alchemical. You know, that regardless of what you intended it to mean it can hit in an emotional way in. In the very immediate way that music does. So I was thinking, that's the story that jumps out to me.
- [07:52]
A
I was thinking about that scene. In that scene, are you thinking, I'm doing Bob Dylan right now, or are you thinking Bob. I'm still Dewey Cox and Dewey Cox is doing Bob Dylan right now?
- [08:01]
B
No, the idea was that Bob Dylan stole his ax. Like, there's a. There's a press conference in the movie. Like, everyone's asking me why I sound so much like Bob Dylan. Why don't you ask Bob Dylan how. Why he does sound so much like me? You know, like. So that's like kind of the repeating joke in the whole movie is that I was the Beatles before the Beatles. I was Roy Orbison before Roy Orbison. I was Brian Wilson before Brian Wilson or. Or concurrently, you know. But, yeah, so I was head to toe dressed like Bob Dylan. My hair, the sunglasses, literally were doing his exact act from that era. So, yeah, I was definitely feeling like I was trying to be Bob Dylan and I was making his voice. Making my voice sound like his voice. But, yeah, in the conceit of the movie, I was an original.
- [08:49]
A
You know, often people ask you about drama versus comedy and you'll often say it's. You do the same thing. You're just committing to the reality of the scene. Just in comedy, the reality might be more ridiculous. I'm curious about how that works in a movie like Walk Hard where there are meta elements. Where the scene. You're in the scene. But you're also commenting upon the movie. There's a part in Walk Hard where you go, like, this is a really dark period for me. Or there's a joke. Or you say, like, I need. I don't want to succumb to the temptations. And then the temptations.
- [09:17]
B
I'm afraid of the temptations. I'm afraid of the temptations. That is the longest that joke gets the most shoe leather in the whole movie. We set that joke six different times throughout. But, yeah, and then we actually got the temptations. The real temptations.
- [09:32]
A
The reality of him saying that, hypothetically, is the temptations being there. But you're saying it. You have to say with a sort of CERN pathos or whatever. How do you.
- [09:41]
B
Yeah, it's both. You know, like, you know, there's sometimes when you're. You. You commit to an idea and you're trying to make it believable. But I would say in that movie, when I'm in the. In the setups to the jokes, when I'm saying I'm afraid of the temptations, I'm actually talking about I'm afraid of becoming a drug addict again. I'm afraid of becoming a. Again. And then when the actual Temptations moment happens, it's, you know, a more pure joke, but cool. Yeah. You know, like, it's funny about comedy and drama, like you mentioned. People do ask me about that a lot because I'm one of the few people that traffics in both. And I think that, you know, if I'm really honest about comedy and the difference between playing comedy, there is something about comedy where I talk about it with Will Ferrell a little bit, you know, and we're like, it almost. It should. And. And Step Brothers has so many of these moments where we're literally about to start laughing. Our eyes are starting to water, and we're starting to. Making these strange faces. There's one where I could point out that Will. Will almost fully loses it.
- [10:49]
A
Do you remember what scene that is?
- [10:52]
B
I think it's. It's a waiting game. Like, when we're talking about his injury from the bunk beds or something, or did we just become best friends? You know, Will's eyes are starting to water a little bit. So to me, like, the recipe for comedy is get to that place where you're about to. Literally about to start laughing. And the way I describe it is, like, it feels like there's carbonation in the air all of a sudden. Like, things get, like, lighter and kind of crazy and like. And then you just hold on. You don't laugh. And then, yeah, hopefully the audience laughs.
- [11:24]
A
Yeah, it's something in the eyes. It is this sort of, like, feeling of play. Even if you're not being. You're not trying to be funny in the scene. The fact that you're committed to the scene, you're playing the reality of the scene. So there is that sort of playfulness. But you are. By committing, you're further being in the moment together. And you sort of can. The audience can feel the energy of it.
- [11:47]
B
I mean, that's part of the joke, too, is, like, how committed he is to these absurd ideas, you know, like, I can't build you a candy house. It will melt in the sun. Like, that was an improvised line, actually. Like, she's like, well, I forgot what her comeback is, but we'll make it out of hard chocolate or something. I don't know.
- [12:06]
A
Have you kept up with biopics since? In many ways it feels like, unfortunately.
- [12:10]
B
Yeah, we really thought of ourselves as being like the inoculation. Like, this is it. If we go this hard against the cliches and the corniness of musical biopics in particular, then we can cure this virus, you know, And. And we did interrupt it, you know, for about a year or two, I think. Don Cheadle came out with a Miles Davis biopic that was clearly like, okay, we have to do it differently. Because who knows? I don't even know if Don or that team saw Walk Hard. But I thought, like, okay, it's working. Like, it's. They're trying to do it in different ways now. And then it. It reconstituted itself and we had the Elton John biopic and then we had the Queen biopic. And then we, like, they just kept boom, boom, boom, boom. And I realized, like, there's just something about this cliche that audiences find very satisfying. And the truth is, if you really do look at the facts of these musicians lives, they are the same over and over. A childhood malady, you know, blindness or whatever. Like a loss of a family member, a tragic event, a parent who doesn't understand you, people who didn't believe in you. A sudden rise to fame, an addiction, drugs, you know, like one after the other. So in a weird way, like, the cliche is real. But ultimately those movies are celebrations of music, though. So I'm not so mad at it. It's just. I just wish we could find more innovative ways to tell some of these stories.
- [13:43]
A
And in many ways, your Dewey Cox was also a celebration of music. It just sort of came from a different angle.
- [13:48]
B
For sure. Yeah.
- [13:49]
A
So I want to talk about Mr. Romantic. And from what I understand, the story of coming up with that character starts with the 2002 movie version of Chicago.
- [13:57]
B
Kind of.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah, kind of like the genesis of the. It puts you on a track that sort of gets there. So I want to talk about Mr. Cellophane, which I think is like this, I think is one of the great scenes in cinema history. I keep on rewatching it. And can you describe who Mr. Sullofane is to you and how you. Your take on it? Because you think it was a little bit different than other versions I've seen of it.
- [14:19]
B
Well, it's funny, we were talking about this idea about comedy and commitment and whatever. Like in the play version of that show, in the musical stage version of that show, it's more of a comic character almost Was supposed to be like, I'm this pathetic clown. I love you, baby.
- [14:36]
A
Yeah.
- [14:36]
B
And Rob Marshall told me. He's like, when I do this. The reason I wanted you to do it, John, is because you seem like a mechanic from Chicago. You. It has to seem real. The love that Amos Hart has for Roxy Hart has to be genuine or else the whole thing is meaningless. You know, he's the only redeeming character in the entire story because he really believes that he. She loves him and he believes she's pregnant at one point with his baby. You know, like, so. Yeah, that. That movie, you know, Rob cast me because he said not only he thought I could sing well, but he. He wanted the. The role to be an actor's role, you know, like, so not just a. A comic, you know, kind of pastiche of the lonesome or the sad sack.
- [15:33]
A
Yeah.
- [15:33]
B
You know, cuckold husband. He wanted to seem like someone who's genuinely loves her, because if he really loved her, it gives the audience a chance to maybe love her too. Like it was someone loves her. Maybe she's not all know. But just to go back a little bit further than that, that's why I said that. That that character was kind of the inspiration for Mr. Romantic. I've been doing musicals since I was eight years old, so that style of performing is something that I grew up doing. So Chicago was like a. A a re. You know, a re. Revisiting of that. I realized, like, oh, wow. Like, I went to acting school and I got this idea in my head that, like, serious actors don't do musicals. You know, like, serious actors are like, you know, Bob, whatever. Like, then I realized, like, no, actually it takes a lot of talent and like, skill to do musicals, and you shouldn't, like, just dismiss that. And so that was like a re. Embracing of that style of performance for me in that movie. And then when I did it, I got all this attention. I was nominated for an Oscar for it. Like, the movie is wonderful, and people really, really responded to it. And then it was over. Yeah. And I was like, man, I really loved being that guy. And we set up this whole stage show for him, even in the movie, you know, And I thought, man, it's too bad he only has one song, because I could. I could see myself going on tour as. As Mr. Cellophane. And then I started collecting songs over time that seemed like they were in that same wheelhouse. And then after 20 years, suddenly I had, like, all these songs, and I realized, wait, these are not about not being seen all of these songs are about being in love, wishing you were in love, regretting a lost love. So then that's when the character became romantic. There's also this. Not many people know this, but there's a movie called the Killing of a Chinese Bookie that John Cassavetes made with Ben Gazara, and he works in a strip. He owns or manages a strip club. Ben Gazar in the movie. And there's a guy who's like the MC of the burlesque show called Mr. Sophistication. And. And I always. I was always obsessed, like, oh, that would be a cool character to play. Even that was before Chicago. So there is something about, like, an unreliable cabare, you know, narrator, like someone who's leading you through an imaginary evening. That was always really appealing to me. And then I got stuck on this TV show for a couple years, and I was really feeling like I'm just here, like, bringing other people's visions to life. And I want to get out on stage and I want to do something about this lack of empathy I see in the world. You know, I'm not good with picket signs or. I don't think actors should be overtly political. If you expect the audience to accept you as a character who's not of your political beliefs, then you have to be careful with what you like as an actor, not as a citizen, but as an actor. So. So I thought, well, what can I do? You know, I can sing these love songs. I can tell people that I love them. I can explore the idea of empathy and loving people that you don't know. And. And maybe that will make people. Maybe that'll help, you know? So I think if everyone was doing that, that we might be digging ourselves out of the hole we're in right now. But that was my. That was my crack at it.
- [19:03]
A
Yeah.
- [19:04]
B
And it's. And it worked, by the way. It worked. When we. When we do these shows, which I think you came to one of our shows of the Hotel Carlisle here, you can see by the end of the night, that room or that theater or that audience feels connected. They. We feel like we've been through something together. You didn't just come and see a show. The show was. You were part of the show. The main person came out and spoke to you and tried to connect with you and see who you really were. And that is different than just like a showbiz kind of presentation, you know?
- [19:37]
A
How did you develop the show? So you have this character idea. How did you develop what the show is? How did you sort of build the world?
- [19:45]
B
It was really improvised. So, you know, you said at the beginning of our chat here, your solo show, but it's not a solo show. It's with four musicians, and we're all part of a band, really. And Mr. Romantic doesn't remember them, but they've been traveling with him in that trunk for thousands of years, so they know what's going on. They're stuck in this purgatory that they're aware of. Mr. Romantic is just, like, reborn every time he comes out of the steamer trunk. But the way the show came together was, first, the music. So we rehearsed the music for months and months. We would get it all under our belt because I wanted the music to be excellent, you know, and the musicians that I found were all really, really super accomplished music. And then as we're getting. And I knew I wanted to come out of a trunk, I was like, oh, that's always a great idea. I always thought of this kind of, like, New Orleans second line funeral kind of thing where, like, a band would come in from outside the world and bring it into the theater, and this. They'd be carrying this box. Well, I quickly realized musicians do not want to carry me in a steamer truck. Fair enough. They have to protect their hands and stuff. You know, like, that's their. Their job. But so almost like the night before the first time we did it in la, I was like, okay, well, why would I be in a trunk? And I was like, okay, maybe he just is always in a trunk, and the only time he comes out of the trunk is to do these shows. Okay, then, then, then what would he say when he came out of the trunk? Like, oh, well, maybe he doesn't have to go back into the trunk if. If he can succeed in this show. And so I came up with that kernel of an idea, and then I just improvised my way through the first, say, dozen times we did the show. And then certain, you know, arcs of the show came. Came to life, you know, and certain ways that I talked to the audience, you know, the show kind of showed me what it was, you know, and it was really through improvisation and through play with the audience. You know, audience work.
- [21:47]
A
It's definitely a style that. There's a lot of clown, modern clown that's happening in LA right now, where shows are being developed that way.
- [21:54]
B
Well, the first place we did the show was the Elysian Theater, which is a. Which is the. The heart of the clown scene in la. My friend Natalie Palamides and I are on the board of that theater. And. Yeah, so that was a good place to start. And then really, I mean, that's the first time we did Mr. Romantic was at the Elysian, but I'd been developing the character song by song at Largo, another great music place in la, at the Coronet.
- [22:23]
A
When you're in it, how much are you able to sort of empty your mind of all information? Right. In many ways, Mr. Romantic is this sort of character that sort of exists and he doesn't have a past or a future. He sort of is there. Does that. Like, do you feel particularly present because of that? Because there is no other information to have other than.
- [22:40]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's also. It's a little cheeky because obviously I am myself, you know, and you can tell, like, when you saw the show. I play around with that and I. I try not to be too knowing because I really do think. Commit committing to that idea that I don't remember anything is important, getting the audience into the present tense of the show. But it's like. It's a lot like improvisation. And when you do improvisation as an actor, you also are not thinking about the past or the future. You're trying to glue yourself into this moment or being a good listener. Like, when I'm looking at you right now, I'm just looking into your eyes and I'm trying to see, like, what am I getting from you right now? I'm not thinking about what I was doing before I came here or what I'm going to do. I'm trying to just clear out everything and really hear what you're saying. That's the moment, you know, and so that's what I try to do. I don't try to create some cold, fake reality in my head. I just try to get myself into the moment right now. What a. What? You seem sad, you know, like, not. Not. I'm just saying, whatever. Some of the audience, you seem sad or you seem nervous or you see, like, what are you. Oh, look at your hair. Is like this. And noticing details and, you know, I gotta tell you, like. Like, when you really see someone, it's like magic what happens. Yeah, I. I couldn't have predicted. I couldn't have predicted what, you know, trajectory the show would take. And it's really a beautiful thing. Like, when I connect with people and I see them, because people often ask me, like, when they've seen the show, like, does anyone ever, like, not cooperate as a volunteer in the audience? Or does anyone ever say the wrong answer to A question. And no, they don't.
- [24:24]
A
Oh, really?
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B
They don't. Because if you really see them and you really connect with them and you show them, you know, I'm goofing around with all this other stuff. I'm dancing and I'm making jokes and whatever, but this I'm not joking around with. I'm really trying to see who you are right now. I'm trying to connect my heart with your heart, and people know that that's real, you know, and so when you do that with people, you really. You just see that. You see the armor peel away. And it took a second in New York City, I have to tell, it was a tough crowd at the Carlisle. And number one, there are a lot of people. Have some cash.
- [24:56]
A
Yes.
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B
You got.
- [24:57]
A
The first thing I noticed about.
- [24:58]
B
You got to have some money to go buy that ticket. They're expensive tickets at the crowd, which is why I did a show in Brooklyn at the end of our run that was much less expensive and was really for the people. Yeah.
- [25:08]
A
Yeah.
- [25:08]
B
But also, you know, rich people are the people, too, you know, so. And I don't make distinctions between, like, human beings, whether one has more value than the other. That's one of the whole points of the show.
- [25:18]
A
Yeah.
- [25:20]
B
But, you know, if you do that, if you really see people and you really try to connect with them and you try to really mean it when you say, I love you, people respond. Human beings respond. Even the hardest hearts respond, you know? Yeah.
- [25:35]
A
Well, that's why it's impressive doing at the Carlisle, because everyone. There was a clear barrier that people had. And then you're coming out the audience, and we're like, oh, there's even. They're like, oh, that's cute. But that can't be the whole show. And then what happens often in this sort of modern cloud, the audience starts tensing up when they realize, like, oh, we're gonna be part of the show. But if you can use that tension to create a different bond, you share that. That created the relief, at least I experienced, where at the end, it did feel like we're all together.
- [26:03]
B
Yeah. There's suspicion at first, and then there's kind of delight at what the song. And they know that when the songs start, like, okay, he's not gonna come out here and talk to me right now. Is this the song gonna happen right now? But. But what I'm doing is building trust. From the beginning of the show to the end, I'm building trust, and I'm trying to get every single person in the audience to connect with me. And by. And I say explicitly in the show, I'll never do anything to shame you or embarrass you or make you feel less than beautiful, you know, And I say that, and then people are like, okay, sure. When's the smart ass comment gonna come? When is he gonna make fun of what my hair looks like and it doesn't come? You know, it really. I. By the end of the show, I really show people, like. No, I. I mean, it. Sincerity is real.
- [26:50]
A
Yeah.
- [26:51]
B
You know. You know, that that's. It's bizarre that saying that empathy is important and sincerity is real is a radical thing to say right now. But it, it is somehow like this snarky culture that we've developed through the course of our interactions with computers and social media is a powerful thing. And. And the antidote, I think, is sincerity, you know, and connection.
- [27:17]
A
You mentioned seeing people, and in many ways I was thinking about it. I was like, it's. How do I put it? It's. He's almost like a reverse Mr. Cellophane. Or like, it's like the person Mr. Cellophane needed. It's like he needed to be in that audience and he needed you. It's like. It is a lot of superheroes, their superpowers are created as sort of an adaptation of the thing that they don't have. And it felt like something like that where it's like the person who's never seen turns into sort of like the great seer of other.
- [27:44]
B
But he's also not great at it. You know, he. Because he has no memory.
- [27:48]
A
Yeah.
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B
Because he has no experience. He's not sure how to fall in love. Do I say this?
- [27:53]
A
Yeah.
- [27:54]
B
Does this make you fall? Would this make you love me forever now? So it's kind of funny that he's so inept at it too. And I know there's. I don't want to get too much into the meta stuff of the show, but because a lot of it was completely unintentional. Like this idea that. That Mr. Romantic lives in a box that is in a way, like a prison. And he comes out, he gets freed every once in a while, and if he can make a connection, he doesn't have to go back to jail, but he does. The meta idea that we all have some kind of box around our hearts that we're all trying to get out of is a. Is an idea that the audience understands immediately, inherently, you know, And I didn't expect that. I just, I wanted to come out of a box you know, it's almost like this idea just kind of like snuck into my consciousness or something. And then when. When it was born, I was like, oh, hell yeah. Like, yeah, I'm gonna embrace all that. Like, the show showed me what it was.
- [28:52]
A
That's interesting.
- [28:53]
B
The.
- [28:53]
A
I was thinking back upon with Mr. Selfain. You. You talked about how the ways you related to the character, maybe not the way some people thought. In some ways, you felt like the nature of how you approach being an actor, you related to Mr. Cellophane and that you. You have this character, and that's what you show people. But people, hypothetically cannot see John as much. They see you through these sort of characters as something you said. And when I was thinking about this show, there is something also to that, which is John is in this chest. And then, like, you come out and you do the show and you exist to the audience during the show, and then you go back in the chest.
- [29:27]
B
It's very meta for what an actor's life is. And I realized, like, I had a blues band before this. I had a folk band for years called John Riley and Friends where we did Americana type music and stuff. And I always felt like a little bit like I had to kind of apologize to the audience, like, look, I don't know if you came here because you wanted to hear scenes from Stepbrothers, but we're gonna sing bluegrass music. Okay. You know, and I was always somehow a little bit of a hard sell in some way.
- [29:56]
A
Yeah.
- [29:56]
B
In my mind anyway. And I also felt like I'm a little bit uncomfortable, like, being myself out here. So Mr. Romantic was a way to kind of, like, do music, but put it in a comfortable place for me where I'm playing a character. And I think it's better for the audience too, because the audience is not like, oh, John Riley thinks this, or, you know, like, you're not. You're not tied down by the mundane facts of life, of what a human being is really like. He's this mysterious thing called Mr. Romantic, you know, like, it's a chance for the audience to play day too, to play along. You're like, you believe that I'm this. I'm pretending to be this, and you're believing this. And our little agreement here is going to create joy for us and connection for us, you know, like, it's a great little magic. I call it an emotional magic act in a way, you know?
- [30:50]
A
Yeah, I know. I mean, especially towards the end, I. I teared up. I think there's this moment where you just sort of love the audience and you love. And it is a thing that a lot of especially film actors don't get to experience in that sort of way where they sort of like making movies and then sort of people respond and maybe someone will give them a compliment on a street or something. But you get to really be like, oh, I'm doing this. I love the audience. This is the way I can tell the audience I love them. And this show is literally about that. You're just.
- [31:17]
B
And that is true. I mean, that's why the show is compelling, I think, is because people can sense that that's true. Yeah, I really do love human beings. Why else would I be doing this show? It's not making. I'm already very famous. I don't need any more fame. The show is kind of a break even thing financially, I can tell you. In music world right now, it's very hard to tour a show, especially when you do a weekend here, a weekend there. So it's kind of break even, you know. And it was a way to get the album born and out into the world, which is a whole other concept I had to create for the album because it's so different than the show. But people know, you know, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to do the show too, was like, I really do believe that human beings that you don't know do deserve love. They deserve respect and dignity and, and kindness, you know, like, that's just a core belief of mine. Yeah. So I thought, like, if I can just bring that to people and, and if they can believe it, even if they only believe it for 90 minutes while the show's happening, that's still something. And a lot of people I talk to after the show, they're like, I drove home, I was in such a good mood. I was remembering all the songs. And it's just, that's. That is. That's worth doing. Yeah, to me, you know.
- [32:37]
A
Yeah, I think it is. I. The thing that it offers is a touchstone for people like to have to, you know, you only see these 90 minutes, but like in different times you can remember those 90 minutes. Like it helps. I mean, I see a lot of shows and it's easy. Just like they're performing and you forget there's other audience members. I think it's really hard for a performer to have the audience connect with each other. But I think that is sort of the greatness of that show.
- [33:04]
B
And there's a moment in the show when, when I, I first usually Begin my audience interactions with a woman. Yeah, because I usually sing this kind of romantic song about Mona Lisa or something, or La Von Rose or. And then I go out and I start talking to a man. And you can feel the audience is like, what is going on here? And I say this thing. Usually I say something like, you know, I'm not gay or straight. I'm desperate. I'm just. Love is love, you know, and that's that people, you know, if you say it in a political way, when you're talking about gay rights or gay marriage, people get into these positions about politics. But when you're in a room and you're saying, I want to love all of you, it's not sexual. It's just, I want to love one of you. People understand that. You know, like, it's. It's a very immediate, understandable thing. It's not a political posture. And what happens then when I do that? When I say, like, look, I'm going to be talking to men and women, it's okay. Yeah. You know, like, the whole room shifts. You know, the first, the women go like, oh, thank God it's not just him hitting on women all night. And the men go, oh, my God, could I love a man? Like, you're wearing a hat that says male friendship. Like. Like that. That's one of the big issues for men right now is our loneliness and our inability to connect with each other in platonic ways. Like, so that was a real. And I stumbled upon that moment, too. You know, I realized, like, I don't want to just talk to women. Like, half of the audience is men. Yeah, I want to talk to them, too. So why would I exclude them? If I'm saying I love humanity, I can't exclude half of them. So, yeah, so I love that. The temperature change in the room and the unifying that happens. It's like everyone becomes equal.
- [34:50]
A
Yeah, it also. It helps. One of the things that it helps people do is I think many people hear the word love and think of romantic love. And also his name is Mr. Romantic. And I do think the show uses sort of the vocabulary of romantic love and the passion associated with romantic love to be like, we can associate love. Friendship can have passion to it too, as well. I think you sort of allow people to, like, remember what it felt like to love other people by using the love that they sort of most commonly comes to mind.
- [35:21]
B
Yeah, it's come to. We've kind of come to this place as a culture. I think that it's naive to just Be nice to someone you don't know. Yeah, but that is the cornerstone of civilization. That's how civilization works. I stop at the red light because I don't want to smash into you when you're going by because I care about you. Like, that's the. Those are the basics of civilization. That's how it's supposed to work. So when I say I'm Mr. Romantic, it doesn't mean I'm Mr. Lust, or it doesn't only mean that. It doesn't just mean I love you like I love a wife. I also love you like I love a mother, you know, like. And to me, romance is a big idea, and love is a big idea. And it incorporates poetry and sunsets and music and lyrical things, things that are not utilitarian, things that are just joyful and beautiful. A flower, you know, like, that's romance to me. Opening yourself up to the beauty, life, and that's love, you know, like. So it's a broad definition, you know. And that's another thing to kind of, like, introduce to the audience is like, is love just about. Is it. I don't think it is, because I've been married 33 years, you know, like, it's more than I can tell you that, you know, like this. And, you know, obviously you're a man of some experience, I'm sure, so. Yeah, so it's. It's a. It's a. It's. It's a way to. It's almost like a salon, you know, in a way, with a lot of entertainment and a lot of bang for the buck. But it's a way to. It's. It's a way to feel through your way, through some of these ideas. Yeah.
- [36:55]
A
And it's also. I mean, like, there's a spiritual quality to it, because there is.
- [36:59]
B
Of this God.
- [37:01]
A
It's like a searching for meaning. Right. Like, they're this character, though. They do not have love. The sort of search for love is, I think, a good metaphor for just sort of, like, searching for. Sort of like embracing the fact that we exist.
- [37:13]
B
And that, in a meta way, is exactly why I did the show. I'm searching for meaning myself. What does my life mean? I've done 80 movies. I made this money, and people know who I am. Like, what does it all mean? What does it all mean? If. If the world I'm living in is not a kind, loving world, what does it mean? What is it? What cool. What good is money and fame and being in a movie if you're living in a World where people are out to strangle each other, you know, like that, that's, that's. That's really was the birth of the show. It came from despair and joy. Like what doing here? Like what, what? Yeah, like you said, a search for meaning. And it was definitely this whole process of, of singing these songs, recording this album, doing the show are a search for meaning for me. And I think a lot of performers in their own ways are doing the same thing.
- [38:06]
A
Where does it now? You know, you've recorded the album, the album's out, you still are doing the show. How does the show. Where can a character like this go? How does the show sort of fit with. With your career? How do you see it? How. How do you hope?
- [38:21]
B
You know, like we're in this weird place with movies and, and all this streaming stuff and you know, like as an actor like this, the ground has really substantially shifted underneath me. Movies that used to be available all the time in a video store suddenly disappear. Like so a large bulk of my career can disappear at the blink of a. Of an oligarchs keystroke. So I thought like, well, what is what when the tough, when the going gets tough. The tough du Vaudeville. Yeah, you know, like, because number one, you can, you can get the money from the tickets right from the door, you know, and you can connect with people right in person. You know, like, I thought like, well, this, I always have this, you know, until Covert Hit, you know, until we can't congregate. But, you know, that is in terms of my career, I don't know like, what is my career? My career was just like one opportunity after another that then added up into a career. I didn't have some game plan when I started. I still don't have a game plan. I just want to keep. You know, there's a St. Francis said, like, make me a channel of your peace. And that's how I see myself. I am a conduit through which things pass. And, and. And the things I'm that are passing through me are for the audience, you know, so that you can feel what it feels like to feel these things. I, you know, like that's what I do as an actor. That's what I do as Mr. Romantic. And I think the, the growth of the show is endless actually, because there are endless songs that are in this. You know, we have probably three different versions of this show with completely different songs every time, but somehow the arc is the same. A character is born. He explains who he is, explains his mission. We reach some Kind of Catholic catharsis. And then we dial it down as I have to, when I realize I'm not gonna. This isn't gonna work out again as I go back into the box. So. So I hope this is a show that I do until the day I die, you know, because it is something that I really do believe in. It's really fun to do. And. Yeah, yeah. So you. You. You.
- [40:34]
A
You spoke about your. Your. That it's become your career. You didn't know this was going to be your career and set out to. You didn't go, like, I'll have this exact career. But I think as you talk about being in conduit and as thinking about the show and the sort of theme of connection that the show. I think what is sort of unique about your career is it has these phases where you have this unique connection with collaborators, and some great work comes out of that, both in terms of what you're able to offer these collaborators in terms of what they're able to come out of you. And I want to talk about a little bit of those times, just sort of talk about. About your work. And so I want to start with Paul Thomas Anderson, who's a friend of yours, and the first director, I think, to really see you, who put your career together, be like, oh, he was the guy in these things. And I think, in many ways taught other directors how to see you. Taught the world, I think, how to see you.
- [41:24]
B
Thanks, Paul.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah. And can you think of a story that captures. When it felt like your collaboration, your connection was really strong. There was really capture sort of what you had when you were working together so intensely in the 90s with Paul. Yeah.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah. Well, you know, Paul, when the. When we first met, was because I was asked to do this filmmakers workshop for Sundance in the summertime, this kind of boot camp for. For wannabe filmmakers. So people submit scripts, then they're allowed to come to this Sundance kind of a summer camp, and there are professional actors there that they can work with, and there are mentors in the business who show, you know, who guide them kind of through the directing process. And they take the script they have, and they shoot a few scenes on video, and then they edit them. They kind of go through a virtual filmmaking process. And so when I met Paul, I was. I had already done a dozen movies or something, and I was like, what do I want to go to summer camp for? I'm already making movies. What the hell? And then I read his script. Script. I was like, oh, my God, like, this guy it was just. I read it so fast. It was one of those things. You don't even really need to read the stage directions, like, the dialogue itself. And that's one of Paul's real great talents, is, like, when you read a Paul Anderson script, there's not a ton of, like, exposition in the. In the stage directions. Just, like, you know what's going on from what people are saying to each other, which is kind of a mark of his genius. And so we went and did that and we just became thick as thieves because Paul didn't even have an agent at that point. At that point, you know, he was. He was just completely undiscovered. And he'd made a short film. He'd been a PA on a few things. He spent like, a day at New York Film School. And then someone insulted Martin Scorsese, one of his teachers, and he's like, right, I'm out of here, like. And so, yeah, we became, like, really, really, really, really close friends. Like, right away. We other were really funny and. And I believed in him and he believed in me. You know, like, now he's become this, like, you know, incredible director. Now it seems like, well, he gave me this gift, but if I'm being honest, like, I had done a dozen movies at the point, so I was giving him a little bit of a gift too, saying, like, no, you're good. This is worth doing. Like, we're. We're going to make something great together. And, yeah, and then it was like I was kind of his, like, conciliary in a way. Like, I would read stuff and give him feedback. And then, yeah, we play around like we. When we're trying to get Boogie Nights done, we were. We just started. We love the show Cops, so we started making this. These Cops videos just to make each other laugh. And then after we got Boogie Nights made, he took those tapes that we were just goofing around and turned that into the character for Magnolia. So, yeah, there was a lot of really close collaboration with Paul. And then. And then I said to him, after three movies, I said, listen, I don't want to be in one of your movies because I'm your friend. I want to be in your movies because I'm the right person to play the part. So you should never feel obligated to cast me in one of your movies unless it's absolutely right. And then he promptly stopped casting me in his movies. But we're still super close friends. I mean, he is like family to me. Like, I'm very, very. I Feel very, very connected to Paul. And. And I still. I stand by my decision. You know, I hope someday we do something great again. Something other than Herman Munster, but Which I did in licorice pizza, but. Yeah. Anyway, that was. It was really like a. I was born. Our collaboration was born of our friendship when I was.
- [45:22]
A
You know, I got to rewatch her a lot of your movies after seeing Mr. Romantic. I've seen them before, and then. But you're you. And the scene that struck me as feeling kind of Mr. Romantic. Y of all the Paul movies is the scene where you first meet Dirk Diggler and Boogie Nights.
- [45:37]
B
Interesting.
- [45:38]
A
Just because there is this similar meeting of a person immediately. And immediately taking them in.
- [45:47]
B
Well, it's not immediate, actually. What's really funny in that movie is when you meet. When I meet Dirk Diggler at that bar and I'm making margaritas, I'm trying to vibe him. I'm trying to, like, dominate him. And in fact, that was Paul's direction. To me, he's like, dominate, Dominate him. Everything that you're saying, you're trying to get one up on him. You're trying to show him you're stronger than him, you're smarter than him, you're cooler than him. Like. And so that scene when he first moved, like. Oh, yeah. Woody Bench. You know, like, I'm. And by the end of that day in the movie. Movie, I'm saying, you want to hear a poem I wrote in the Jacuzzi? So. Yeah. And then I just fall in love with him as a friend, you know? Isn't it? Yeah. Eddie Adams from Torrance. Yeah. That was the.
- [46:29]
A
Is the falling in love quality that those characters have that feels so visceral. Even though that character. That. As we go back to talking about friendship. Right. Like, obviously, hard eight. There's a romantic love that happens, and there's romantic love in Magnolia, but there's something about the purity of the love of that that feels sort of. I felt like a similar note.
- [46:47]
B
Yeah. There's a childlike quality to it. Like when you find your best friend, you know, like in third grade, we're like, what? You're so funny. Oh, my gosh. We have to spend all our time together. I have one relationship like that after another in my life. From the time I was a little, little kid, I always had, like, a ride or die, like, wingman, best friend, my runner, you know, like. And my work has reflected that. I have those one after the other in my work, too. Stan and Ollie, stepbrothers, sisters, brothers, you Know, there's just one after the other for some reason, like, that's how I'm made. Yeah. You know, like, I. I like to collaborate and I like to be in partnerships and I like to build something with someone else. Because, I mean, part of it's like. Then it's like, less on me. I'm less kind of. Maybe it's a Chicago thing where I'm from. You know, it's like, it's pretentious to think you're the greatest and you're the star. Wait, I. I have something important to say. In Chicago, it's much cooler to be like, no, no, I'm not the most important one. We're going to show you something cool, and our collaboration is going to make something great, you know, like, because you're not going to become famous in Chicago overnight. You're only going to do a good play if you work really hard and you connect with the other person. Like LA or New York. You could become famous overnight. So I've known. Noticed theater actors in New York especially, much more like, okay, the connection is between them and the audience, not between you and them.
- [48:15]
A
I mean, it makes sense that, you know, improv, modern improv, improv comedy was invented in Chicago where, like, standup became really a thing. That was a New York and LA thing where it felt like, obviously there's people specifically that created improv there. But, like, it does feel like that makes sense. That was the culture where that would come out of. Another one of your collaborators that we talked about was Will Ferrell. Can you think of. Of shooting something or a story that captures a time where you felt really particularly connected to him creatively?
- [48:40]
B
I felt connected with Will from the moment that I met him. I was friends with Molly Shannon. We had done a movie called Never Been Kissed, this very strange movie in my kind of filmography. Like, the only kind of, like, teenage romantic comedy kind of that I've ever done. I think, anyway, Molly and I were, like, romantic in that movie, and I just fell in love with Molly, and she's still one of my closest friends.
- [49:06]
A
Just.
- [49:07]
B
She's just a miracle. Molly Shannon. And I was in New York, and she's like, you should meet my friend Will. I think he'd really like him. And I already knew, you know, his work on Saturday Night Live and stuff, but I remember meeting him on the west side Highway. I was walking with Molly, like, oh, he's going to meet us here. And we met on a corner, and I remember looking into his eyes and be like, oh, my Gosh, like, I'm going to be friends with this guy, and I almost feel like a. I do feel like a familial connection to him. I don't know if it was the way that he looked or our similar heights or whatever, but I looked at him like, wow. Like, I. I knew right away I was going to be sympatico with this guy. Like, I knew I felt very connected. I almost did Anchorman. I did a table reading of Anchorman that was really fun. And then I was already committed to doing the Aviator, so I couldn't do.
- [50:01]
A
You're gonna be champ, I believe, right?
- [50:04]
B
Yeah. I was going to be one of the news team. Yeah. But, yeah, so we. We could sense right away, like, oh, no, we. We got to do something together. You know, when we almost did with Anchorman, and then. And then, luckily, Talladega Knights came along, and then it would just, like, ex. You know, we were like, off to the races. It was so much improv and Teledaga Nights that I actually was the one that said, after we finished Talladega Nights, I sat Adam and Will down. I was like, look, guys, I've made more movies than you guys at this point, okay. I've been. I've been doing this for a while, and I can tell you it's very, very rare that people have this kind of connection that the three of us have. Have. So I really think we should come up with another project for us to do right away.
- [50:53]
A
Yeah.
- [50:54]
B
So let's meet. And I made this dinner happen. They're like, okay, okay, okay. We met at Dantana's. We all sat around and talked and came up with a million funny ideas. And then the next morning, McKay called both of us. Like, how about your parents are divorced people? And then you. You, like, he gave us the pitch for Step Brothers. Like, yep. Like, that's the one. One. So, yeah. Anyway, the.
- [51:16]
A
The most Mr. Romantic.
- [51:18]
B
When did I feel most connected to Will, though? I don't know.
- [51:20]
A
Like, well, this is the m. Well, what were you going to say? Well, you.
- [51:23]
B
I don't know. It's just one. I mean, to really improvise with someone and to really see someone, like, did we just become best friends? You know, all those kind of lines and stuff. A lot of the improv, like, we're really. It's real connection.
- [51:35]
A
The thing that I thought of the scene in Step Brothers, Will's character is afraid of singing. And then he finally sings to you, and you just started listening to him.
- [51:42]
B
I started to cry. I started. I really Start to cr.
- [51:45]
A
Remember shooting that scene one.
- [51:46]
B
Oh, yeah, I remember all that stuff. I remember. Really? Really. In fact, I remember so much more from that movie than. Than is in the movie. Yeah. Cuz like, at that time, you know, when everyone was shooting on film, the average number of feet you would shoot on film was 500,000ft for a feature average. We shot 1.5 million feet of film on that movie. They called us the rollout gang because. Because every. Every magazine of film that was on the camera would roll out, you know, and we'd have to reload the cameras. Anyway. We actually got complaints from Sony at one point. They're like, you need to stop using so much film. And BK was like, you like, come on. What do you. Have you seen the dailies? We're getting great stuff. Who cares about, like, it's like. I don't know. It was just to complain about the raw material abuse was, to him was absurd.
- [52:41]
A
So when you're seeing Will sing, and obviously it's Will sing and you're just. You're, you know, how important is to this character, how emotional. Like, do you. Did the script say, you know, he cries or did it just sort of.
- [52:52]
B
No, no. Who knows what the script said? You know, like, we improvised our way through the script too, that the three of us wrote that script together. And. Yeah, so there was stuff on the script, but then, you know, I would. I don't know what the percentage is, but I. I would suspect about 50% of what we did was like, live on the set, improvised on the set. But it's that same thing we talked about at the very beginning of this interview, which is like, commitment, you know? Like, I know it's silly that he's singing this. Like, what is it? Who's the singer? Yeah, give him something. It's a Bonnie Ra. Yeah, he's singing this Bonnie rang this very timid way, you know. Know. Of course, I know it's absurd, but as the character as Dale, I'm trying to get fully locked in. In an emotional place and really believe. This is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. You know, it's almost like an acting exercise. Like, really believe it. You know, if you believe it, then the audience believes it. So, yeah, it was real. I mean, it's as real as any. Yeah, you know, I guess it's also funny, but yeah, I mean, and it's. It's real. I'm like, that's the thing. Like, comedians, like, like someone like Will. I've always said, like, Will could literally read the phone book and make you laugh. Because Will has this. I don't know what it is. He has this kind of fairy dust he can just put on stuff. He's. He's naturally funny. I don't think I'm naturally funny. I think I'm a. I'm. I'm an actor who can commit, you know, so I know how to commit to an idea. And if the idea is silly, then it's funny. Will and people like Bill Murray and people like, you know, Peter Sellers and, you know, there's something about those comedians, a pure comedian, that's just like. You don't even know why you're laughing. There's just something that they do that's just funny. I actually, I'm not trying to be humble. I don't see myself in that same category. I see myself as someone that is a good observer of human behavior. And I, I'm good at mimicking human behavior, and I'm good committing wholeheartedly to ideas.
- [55:05]
A
Speaking of commitment, I, I. This is a small thing to ask about, but I, I couldn't get over. There's a scene in Step Brothers where you do really long fart. You're in a job interview and you have to do it. I imagine the sound wasn't on fart. Did you.
- [55:19]
B
All right, so it was not that long, but I did. Weirdly, there are a few farts in the movie, and we, for whatever reason, I don't know what we're eating, meeting. But weirdly, like, Will and I both were able to knock them out when we needed to. But obviously then they made it really absurdly long in this.
- [55:38]
A
So that's how you're able to be true in the moment. You're like, okay, well, yeah, yeah, that's. So there's a. You said that seeing that was the.
- [55:47]
B
Question, you wanted to know if the part was real.
- [55:48]
A
No, I just want to know how you pretend. How do you not tip that you're doing something funny in that moment? And how do you try to, like, grounded as much as possible, while also, obviously, you're farting. And I guess the answer is you farted.
- [55:59]
B
I mean, not just the farting and that we, like every single scene, you know, we're in a job interviewing in tuxedos, you know, like, there's so many absurd contradictions in that movie that the only way through it for me was just like, no, this guy believes this is the best thing to do right now. Like, or. Or he can't help it, you know.
- [56:16]
A
Like, you talked about In Tales, there's the scene where Will runs around in his underwear and how. How moved you were by it. The sort of how.
- [56:25]
B
Yeah.
- [56:26]
A
He gave himself to it. And then walk hard, I believe comes up.
- [56:28]
B
Will. Will actually taught me a lot about commitment.
- [56:31]
A
Well, that's what I was asking.
- [56:32]
B
Cuz it's particularly in comedy. Will showed me. I was like, you know, I think m. I'm. I'm a. I'm a pretty, like not shy, but I'm. I, I'm not someone who's like the life of the party, you know, Like, I'm someone who's a little more reserved and, and in terms of, you know, I don't know. I think before I met Will, I think I might be like, oh, I'm not. I'm not gonna take off my clothes. Like come on. And like, whatever. You know, like I would. I just had sort of limits or whatever. And then when you watch someone like Will work and you realize like, no, it doesn't matter. Your own dignity does not matter. Yeah. What's most important is making them laugh. And like, even if you have to get completely nude to do that, do that. That's what. And that's what the way clowns think.
- [57:18]
A
Yeah.
- [57:18]
B
Too. You know, like. And so I, I realized like, oh no, that's punk rock. That not even caring what your body looks like when you're running around in your underwear. That is, that's comedy, you know, like, that's commitment, you know. He made me braver.
- [57:36]
A
Yeah. Because the next year you're in a movie where you run around in your underwear.
- [57:39]
B
Yeah, I run. Not in another way. In a loincloth. Thong thing. Yeah. Diaper kind of deal. Swami diaper.
- [57:47]
A
Next up, I want to ask you about Tim and Eric, who of course you work as an executive producer on. On Steve Brul's shows.
- [57:53]
B
Check it out with Dr. Steve Br.
- [57:55]
A
So you're executive producer on it. Do you have a memory of a time where you felt particularly connected to them in terms of vision or collaboration?
- [58:01]
B
Well, those, those are another guy. Those. Another example, like I had a partnership with those guys, but we were three. Three?
- [58:07]
A
Yeah.
- [58:08]
B
You know, like I almost see them as one in a way when we work together. But it was born of our friendship too. There's this guy, Ron lynch, he's a great comedian. He does this show called the tomorrow show for 20 years in LA. He's still doing it. I met them at Ron's birthday party at a bowling alley. And he's like, you should talk to these guys. I Think you'd like them. Like, he. Somehow he knew my sense of the absurd was similar to this theirs. And it was like we got on like a house on fire. I did their first show, Tom Goes to the Mayor. Kind of like as myself, in a way. My character's name, John, and that those guys are. Are also people like who. Their own personal dignity doesn't matter at all. They're. They're. They're also punk rock like that too. They're just. They. They go for the most extreme ideas and they come fully commit and, and yeah, the. The crazier, the. The idea, the better. When I felt closest to them. Like, I've spent a lot of time with Tim and Eric. We've toured together. You know, I've been on their tours with them and I've driven in cars with, you know, for hours and hours and hours. We've gone across the whole country together, different cities. And so I'm really, really close with those guys as. As people, you know. So I think that's again, just sort of like I get into these relationships with people and then our work becomes an extension of those relationships. I think the.
- [59:40]
A
The last one I. And I've always was curious about. I've long been fascinated. Fascinated with the. The mythology mythologized production of True west you did with Philip Seymour Hoffman where you traded parts. I don't know if you know this, but people talk about it as like the paragon of acting. Partly because it's just the idea of you trading parts every other night. Night where you're playing brothers, you're playing.
- [59:58]
B
Is every three performances.
- [60:00]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [60:01]
B
Yeah. So sometimes we do the matinee one way and the night, the evening performance another way. Those are pretty surreal days. But, yeah.
- [60:07]
A
Can you talk about coming to that idea, embracing that idea first, and then I'll ask if you. What you. If you have any memories that stand out from that experience.
- [60:17]
B
Well, first of all, to give credit for that concept, it was Matthew Warches, the director's idea. Idea. He did it before and at the Donmar Warehouse with two other. Mark Rylance, actually.
- [60:29]
A
Oh, wow.
- [60:30]
B
The great Mark Rylance was in the original True west production that Matthew directed and another fellow from New York, I can't remember his name, but they. He came up with that concept then because Matthew was taken with the duality of the characters. In True west, there are two very different brothers and in a weird way, they're trying to become each other. One wants to be more hardcore and more of a man and more macho and More of a. Live an authentic life. The other one wants to be more cultured and make money and be more part of the world and be accepted by the world. And so the. The symbiosis of that and the way that they try to turn into each other made Matthew think, like, we both guys should play both parts. Like, well, I'm really honored to hear that. People still talk about that performance like it was. It was a relatively short run. But I remember thinking, like, first of all, I had to talk Phil into doing it. Phil was like, I don't know. I don't know. I got Phil to do it, and I remember thinking, like, it felt like a boxing match, you know, where we didn't really have to. No one won. Yeah. And there was no intermission, so it was just like, boom, this shot out of a cannon thing every night. And I remember thinking, like, this might be the greatest thing I've. I'll ever do. You know, even at that age, I don't know how old I was. I was in my 20s or something. Like, I thought, like, man, does it get any better than this? And it was one of those rare moments in life where I remember multiple times during curtain calls where I would just be weeping because I was like, what did I just go through? You saw. Hot. I can't believe this just happened. I can't believe how lucky I am to be this vessel tonight that I brought this to you. You know, like, it was a really, really, really special moment. And it was like. It bonded Phil and I in this deep way because people didn't know who the hell we were on Broadway. We're completely untested on Broadway. Maybe if you were into movies, you might know us a little bit from the movies. But. But it was. It was a. It was a trial by fire, you know, and every night, and there was a lot of. You know, the characters are really at each other for almost the whole play, and I. Our ritual every night before we went out on stage was like, we would embrace and I would say, I love you, brother. So that was a deep experience with Phil, you know, God rest his soul. Yeah. And a brilliant piece of writing. A brilliant piece of comedic writing.
- [63:12]
A
Yeah.
- [63:12]
B
You know, like, Sam Shepard wrote that play. I don't even think Sam understood how funny it was. You know, I had never seen Malkovich and Sise do it in Chicago, even though that was already. You talk about. People talk about this legendary thing. People are still talking about that in Chicago, about Malkovich and Gary Sise, you know, like, so we We. We. We rehearsed that play and we just did in this room. No one ever laughed in rehearsal. No, no one. It was just silence. So we thought we're doing, like, straight up drama. And it was intense. And we knew some things were kind of absurd the way the. But we didn't think we're getting any laughs. Yeah, we lit. I mean, think about that. I mean, there were gales of laughter in that theater. The show would have to. We. And that was one of the first things we had to learn in the preview. So, like, holy. Like, I gotta hold off on my next line because they're, like, guffawing at the way you sat on the counter, Phil. You know, like. Or the way you interacted with the toaster.
- [64:07]
A
Like.
- [64:08]
B
Like there were all these, like, magical laughs that just seemed to come out of nowhere. And they were really pure laughs because they were like the kind of laughs an audience gives you when they recognize something true. It wasn't like we're telling them jokes. They were like, oh, my God, my brother is just like that. Like. Or my mom. When we got caught by my mom. There's this amazing scene at the end of the play when the mom comes home after we've destroyed her house. Anyway, I could talk about that.
- [64:39]
A
Was it competitive? Obviously, there's a competition in the. The characters. It was. It was the acting competitive. You talk about New York versus Chicago. Was there a way Did.
- [64:50]
B
Yeah. And when I mentioned New York actors being like that, I'm talking about Phil for sure. Phil was born and raised in New York. He's from Rochester. He came up here. You know, he went to Tisch. He. You know, he was born of the tough streets of New York theater. Like, the. The competition and the rivalries. And, you know, like, that's what was. What Phil was. You know, that's where he came up. And I come. I'm like, this coming from Chicago guy, and, like, it was definitely competitive. And. And if I'm honest, I felt competitive with Phil all the time. You know, as we went into our film careers and everything. Like, it was sort of like. It was a good competition, though, because it was a. It was a competition where I never wished ill upon Phil. You know, I never, never, never thought of him, like, in an envious way. It was more like, oh, that guy, he's so goddamn good. I've got to be as good as that. I've got to keep trying. It was like an inspiring kind of competition. And then every night on this, on stage was definitely that. You know, we're trying to kill each other.
- [65:52]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [65:52]
B
You know, really, when I say it felt like a boxing match, like there's some physical fighting at the end of that play. And we were, we had stage moves or whatever. Stage come combat training. But we were going hard on each other because we're both strong guys and we, we knew our, we knew our limits.
- [66:09]
A
You said part of the inspiration making the album was after the experience of playing Oliver Hardy in the Laurel and Laurel Hardy movie that you made. You, you learned he was a sort of a wonderful singer, but there were not that many recordings of him.
- [66:23]
B
Very few. Yeah.
- [66:24]
A
And there's something about, if you want people to remember that you are a singer, you need to, you need to record it while you're still alive.
- [66:32]
B
Not just that, but if you want to share your gifts with the world, you better do it. You better not just talk about it. You better do it.
- [66:39]
A
Is that how you think about it? Is that a thing?
- [66:42]
B
Yeah.
- [66:42]
A
Continue talking about that.
- [66:43]
B
I think, you know, we, like, someone told me once, Neil Maron, who produced Chicago, I said, you know, Neil, I, I didn't know that. I didn't know this was going to come back into my life. Musical theater. I know it's just like, I, I, I knew I could do this, but I didn't know I asked to do. And he's, he said to me, potential is a, is a terrible thing to have because it corrupts you in the inside if you don't use it. And so, like, this idea, don't hide your light under a bushel. Like, that's, you know, I don't know why Oliver Hardy never recorded an album, but I know as someone that loves Oliver Hardy, who loves his singing, that I felt like, what a tragedy that there isn't more of that out there, there. As opposed to someone like Burl Ives, who, who was also an actor, who is, who saved, who passed on so much folk music. He was like a very prolific musician in terms of recording. So, like, I was like, I want to be more like Burl Ives than, than Oliver Hardy. Like, I want to, like, make sure when I'm dead and gone, if people are interested in what I brought as a singer, I want them to be able to do, hear it, you know, so. But there was a big, that was, it's a much bigger journey than I realized, you know, like, the courage to sing, to find your own voice, the way that you sing, and to say to the world, I've got something to sing about, like, it takes a lot of courage. And there was so much doubt and so much. So many dark nights of the soul leading to that. And so I'll say to anyone listening to this, it's not easy, but you have to do it.
- [68:23]
A
So now it's time for the final segment of the show. It's called the laughing rounds. Like a lightning round, but I call a laughing round because it's comedic broadly in nature. Do you have a favorite joke? Just like a street joke or a dad joke or anything?
- [68:34]
B
I like remember one joke at a time. Yeah. And then if I hear another good joke, that one gets displaced and I can only remember the new joke. The current joke that I love is a little girl asked her mother, mommy, where do babies come from? And the mother is like, from the stork. And the little girl says, yeah, but who the stork. I gotta laugh. So I love that one.
- [69:07]
A
There. A less talked about part of your.
- [69:10]
B
Your.
- [69:11]
A
Your pivot to doing more comedies is you're an anger manager. Management. The Adam Sandler movie where he goes to anger management, you play a. His former bully who becomes sort of like a Buddhist, who. Then they have this big fight scene. It's a very funny scene. I think you're very funny in this movie. Do you remember shooting that scene?
- [69:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, it was. That was insane. First of all, Jack Nicholson is standing there. You're like, oh, my God. I mean, I'd already worked with Jack, so I knew him a little bit. But I mean, any if. I don't know if you've ever had the luck to meet Jack Nicholson, but when you meet him, you're like, I can't believe I'm meeting Jack. I can't believe I'm here. Because Jack is like. He is like you want him to be. It's not. It's not an act. You know, Jack is who you think he is. You know, he really is the sum of those characters. And the way he talks is. Anyway. Yeah. And then Sandler has all these, like. He has this brain trust of comedians around him all the time who are writers. So you feel like part of this really exciting kind of gag team, you know, which is how Stan and Ollie used to make their movies. They're called gag men. The guys would just stand around, like, what if you hit him in the pants with a fish first and then the board hits him on top of the head? Yeah, yeah, that'll go. That'll go. You know, like, that's how movies used to be made. Like, there were barely any scripts. People just stand around and pitch ideas to each Other. And Adam Sandler still has this group of guys around him, so that was a really fun thing to be part of. Of. And then also, like, it was so childlike, that scene, you know, like, remind me of, you know, getting bullied by somebody or picking on somebody yourself or, you know, it was just so, like, kid. Like. Yeah. The titty twisters and, like, spinning on him, like all this awful stuff that kids do to each other. Adam has very small. I don't know.
- [70:57]
A
Adam has what?
- [70:58]
B
No, no, no, no, no. It was hard to do the titty twisting on him.
- [71:01]
A
Oh, he has very hard nipples.
- [71:02]
B
Yeah. No, no, no. He. He was very sensitive to it. Let's just say that this is the stuff.
- [71:07]
A
This is what people tune in for.
- [71:08]
B
Yeah. That's why I didn't want to say it.
- [71:10]
A
Anyway, well, that. Well, let's be. What do you remember from your week hosting snl?
- [71:16]
B
Oh, man, that was a real. Talk about a trial by fire. Like, it was really a true shot out of a canon experience. But again, you get to hang out with all these people whose jobs are to be funny for a living. So. So it was like a comedy boot camp, in a way. Every night you're hanging out in those offices, coming up with ideas with some of the most brilliant funny people in the whole country. Yeah. It was not easy, though. It was not easy. There are a lot of things about it that were surprisingly hard. The first thing I can think of is the cue card thing. So as an actor, I just described to you for about an hour here how I work as an actor. And it's by connecting with someone, making eye contact, making sure we're on the same wavelength, and I'm really seeing you, and I'm really hearing what you're giving me and whatever. Sending it back. When you do snl, they tell you, don't look at the other person. Don't look at them. I'm telling you, look at the cue card. Because if you go off the cue card and you look to them, you will lose your place and then you'll be screwed. And I was like, okay, okay. But it's a very strange feeling. So you get to this moment, you're like, well, here it is. I'm on snl. I'm going to be in a funny sketch on snl, and I'm here with whoever. Jason Sudeikis. But I'm not looking at Jason Sudeikis. I'm looking at the cue cards, and he's looking at those cue cards. So it's like you're In a way you're not there together. Like it's a very out of body kind of experience. And then the audience is reacting as if you are looking at each other like I don't know. That was surreal. That was. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pinned messages so.
- [73:08]
A
No one forgets mom 60th and never.
- [73:11]
B
Miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there streaming now. On Peacock we sell toilet tissue and local newspapers that is in order of quality. From the crew that brought you the office.
- [73:56]
A
My name is Ned Sampson. I am your new editor in chief.
- [73:59]
B
Comes a new comedy series.
- [74:00]
A
Have you read this paper? Uh huh.
- [74:02]
B
It sucks.
- [74:03]
A
But we are going to make it better.
- [74:05]
B
Meet the underdog journalists. I hope it's not too disruptive to.
- [74:07]
A
Have me shake everything up. Don't be so self defecating with major issues.
- [74:11]
B
Oscar. Oh God, not again. The paper Only on Peacock Streaming now.
- [74:16]
A
Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian, living or dead, you're willing to share?
- [74:22]
B
I once was asked some magazine was doing a thing and I wish I could remember the name of the magazine because I would love to find this story again. It went out of print. This magazine was like kind of an entertainment magazine. They said we're doing an issue about who inspired you as an actor. And I was like, well there's immediately. I was like Gene Wilder. Of course, Gene Wilder. Like Gene Wilder when I was a kid was someone who was like who showed. In an era of very macho guys who showed. No, it's okay to be sensitive. It's okay to have a feminine quality to yourself. It's okay to be. I mean in a weird way, like I think my personality is half Willy Wonka, half Charlie Bucket. You know, this a vulnerable little kid.
- [75:07]
A
Yeah.
- [75:08]
B
And this, you know, whatever maker of make believe we are the music makers. Is that Great poem that he's. That he says before they go in. So, yeah, so I. I was like, gene Wilder. And like, okay, well, let's. We'll reach out to him. And then next thing you know, we're driving up to Connecticut to his house that he bought with Gilda Radner. You know, she. She was. Passed away at that point, but he's there living with his wife. And I just. It was just surreal, you know, getting to, like, look into the eyes of Gene Wilder and be like, I just want to tell you how important Willy Wonka was to me. And he's like, really? That one?
- [75:49]
A
Well, I was a kid. That's beautiful.
- [75:53]
B
But, yeah, yeah, he still. He looked older. You know, his hair had gone gray and whatever, but those eyes, those luminous blue eyes, you know, like. And in a weird way, like, he was a very accomplished comedian. He was someone who could be funny at will, but he was also the kind of actor that I aspired to be, someone who was about sensitivity and about really believing what he was doing. You know, Like, I don't know. There's a really special quality of the Gene Wilder that I don't think I've seen in anyone else. Hopefully, people see a little bit of it in me now. But we had tea at his house, and I brought. Brought him a teapot anyway, and then he said, I have to go to our tap dancing lesson. Goodbye. We did our little photo shoot. He's like, we're going to go take tap dancing lessons with my wife. Goodbye. Like, cool. I hope I'm taking tap dancing lessons. Was that the age that he was.
- [76:48]
A
Do you have a feeling about something that people think is comedy or is funny that you think that's not comedy?
- [76:55]
B
I don't think cruelty is comedy. I don't think, you know, there's a trend right now with. With misanthropy. There's a trend that I don't like in movies where people and. And the reason I don't like it is not because I think everything's fine and. And everything's wonderful. You know, there. I definitely have my misanthropic days where I'm like, oh, humanity, you. But that's not my core belief, you know, And I actually think to be misanthropic is like, people who are very, very overly sensitive are misanthropic because they look at the world. You're like, everything is not peaches and cream. Well, everything sucks. And that, to me, it's like an immature idea, you know, it's an immature stance to take like a 15 year old. It's like everything's. Everyone's stupid. The world is ending. So it, you know, like that's, it's just so immature to me. And I don't want to call out specific filmmakers or writer, director kind of people, but there are, it is a trend right now to be cynical in that way. And you know, I, I. One of those kind of stories. And I think like, okay, what are you saying to me with this, with this story? Are you saying to me everyone's an idiot because there are no likable characters in this movie? There are no redeeming qualities for anyone in this movie. The world is on a trajectory where it's right. Sorry for all my swearing today, by the way. So what are you saying to me? Are you saying to me the world's get used to it? I already knew that before I came in here. Here, I read the news every day. So what are you adding to my life by telling me that everything's. And that everyone's stupid? Or that human beings are not noble and that human beings at their heart of hearts are not good? What do you, what am I supposed to take from that? What's additive in my life about that? Why do I need that? I don't need it. I don't need it. If we were living in a bucolic age where everything was fine, you know, know, then maybe, yeah, a little bit of acid would be good, right? A little bit of corrosive thinking might be good to leaven things. But we're in the right now. And I personally think that art should be additive to people's lives. Not to see that it should all be Pollyanna ish. That they should all be happy endings. But I do think there should be redeeming qualities because that is the truth about life to me. That life is not all bad. Bad life is not all good either. But when you're at a funeral, someone always cracks a joke, right? When you're at a birthday party, you notice something sad about a kid, right? That's life. That's the truth about life. It's balanced. Or it, or it has contradictions or it has surprises. Surprises. That's what I want in a movie. And if you say to me the whole world is. And people are stupid, well, that's not surprising. So sorry. There's many people saying that.
- [80:03]
A
Yeah, you know, last one.
- [80:06]
B
I don't even know what the question was, but I really needed to get that off my chest. Clearly.
- [80:10]
A
It's fair. I remember when I Was writing my book. I go, I. I can't justify charging people for cynicism. Like, if they're paying money, I shouldn't make their life worse.
- [80:20]
B
It's such an easy. It's such a lazy. It's a lazy posture. Cynicism.
- [80:24]
A
Yeah.
- [80:25]
B
Anybody can do it. It's a defeated posture gesture. Anybody can be defeated if you, if you defeat yourself by saying that anybody can do. Takes someone a little more clever to show the complexity of life.
- [80:38]
A
Yeah. Last one. Can you think of the best time you bombed or any time you bombed that you'd like to. That you're willing to share?
- [80:47]
B
Wow. Yeah. This is probably the, the worst I've ever bombed. And this is before I, I've now developed a way to be myself on camera. Right. Like, right now.
- [80:58]
A
Yeah.
- [80:58]
B
Like, you're not getting the whole picture of me, but I'm trying to give you some version and appreciate it that, that you might think is me. Right. But for a long time, I, I, When I was an actor coming up, I, I did not want to be myself. I didn't. I'm not. I'm not like the class clown. I'm not the guy make. Have John make the toast. He's an actor. Actor. And that's exactly what my sister thought at her wedding. And they were like, john, you're gonna make a toast, kind of on behalf of the family. And I stood up and I was like, oh, my God, I am the worst person to do this. And I would said something like. I even said like, this Tiny Tim line from Christmas Carol. I was like, I'm just so glad that you found each other. And God bless us all, one and all. I just sat down in. The audience was like. The reception was like, wow. I thought he was an actor. Like, so then I realized real, literally after that moment, I was like, you got to be better prepared for these moments. You have to be. You have to figure out a way to speak as John Riley, even if that's not a complete picture of who you really are. Because I think that's what kept me from doing it was like, well, people can never really know who I am. I contain multitudes, so I'll just play characters and, and never show them who I am. And then I really realized, like, well, if you're going to go out there and promote a movie, you better have some way to talk as yourself. So anyway, I really bombed that day. Sorry.
- [82:24]
A
Sorry.
- [82:25]
B
Well, you saying sorry to my sister.
- [82:27]
A
You didn't bomb today.
- [82:28]
B
My sister's still married, though, so something must have been good luck.
- [82:33]
A
Thank you so much.
- [82:33]
B
Yeah. Thank you.
- [82:35]
A
That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Matt, Neil Janowitz, and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon Mason McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox, and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York Magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we're back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.