Kevin Smith (2:38)

Thank you, kids. We only have an hour and the f. How many questions you got?

Chris Rock (2:47)

I got like 30 questions, we'll get.

Kevin Smith (2:49)

To two, so we should probably. I appreciate the kind words, but let's dive into it. Jesse has prepared a wonderful hour for us. I'm going to. I'm going to. Can I just a quick note. I'm going to stand just because, like, I'm generally, I'm on stage a lot and whatnot. And when I sit on stage for the next like week on Twitter, people will send me crotch shots from the audience. Be like, where's your dick? Look at your camel toe and shit like that. Because I've got very. I've got like, I got my mom's childbearing thighs. So I cut a better figure just standing. So I'm gonna stand.

Chris Rock (3:25)

Sure, that's fine.

Kevin Smith (3:26)

But Jesse wants to sit because Jesse.

Chris Rock (3:30)

Yeah, that's me. I have the opposite problem when I stand. People are just taking too many photos.

Kevin Smith (3:35)

Of me standing out.

Chris Rock (3:36)

So of course, Jay was supposed to be here as well. So I want to give you a couple minutes to complain about that, but then at the end, genuinely express appreciation for him. But first complain about how he's not here.

Kevin Smith (3:49)

I mean, like, I learned a long time ago, I've been in business 30 years and I learned 31 years ago not to rely on Jason Muse. However, the good news is this. He didn't just flake out or anything like that. He is an absolutely wonderful father of two kids. He's got a nine year old daughter and a one almost two year old son. So the, the daughter is in the Nutcracker. And don't. Aww. He ain't fucking here. But no, no, it is very fucking sweet. So, you know, he's not in the audience watching her. He is part of the thing. So he's one of these motherfuckers. And he said he needed to go rehearse that today. So I was like, go ahead. To be fair, he also said he did not remember anything from dog. He used to be a drug abuser and stuff. So all of it is what I've told him over the years and stuff.

Chris Rock (4:46)

So it is Sunday and we'll be talking about the movie Dogma. So I thought we'd start here, which is. Do you remember a moment or a time where specifically your relationship to the church changed as a kid?

Kevin Smith (4:59)

Yes, and it was not when I was a kid. It was very late in life. It was when I was going away to film school, when I was, let me see, about 22 years old. When I went to the Vancouver Film School. I had to go out To Washington, which is where my uncle lived in Federal Way, and go from there up to Vancouver. So when I went out, I was already in the midst of a beginning of a crisis of faith. Up until this point, you have to understand, like, all that stuff to me was absolute Bible truth. Never occurred to me to question that was like, the faith we were raised in and stuff. Like, I remember my parents making a big deal about when I came home from school. I was like, john Kovac said, there's no such thing as Santa Claus. And my parents were like, sit down. You know, and they were like, you have to understand, Kevin, Santa is a beautiful lie that we tell children. And one day you'll do it, too. And it's just about the magic. But no, Santa doesn't exist. And I remember being like, but what about God? And they're like, well, God's real. Like, don't be stupid. You know, so it was just something that was never really questioned in my world. But the older I got, you know, I grew up in a Catholic setting, and most of the. Even when I went to, like, a public high school, I was still surrounded by people that I went to Catholic school with. And in public high school, they didn't disabuse me of the notion of my faith or anything like that. But I reached a place where I remember going, hey, man, like, we make fun of, you know, the ancients, Greeks and Romans because they, you know, read these myths or. Well, we read their myths, and they were like, there's so many gods, you know, like, oh, my God. God for everything. And we're like, oh, how stupid. Don't they know there's only one God? You know? And it occurred to me that the same way that you, like, we kind of laugh at those cats, one day, 10,000 years from now, or whatever, the somebody's gonna be like, can you believe they believed in anything like that? And so it started there, but it started late for a lot of people. It happens at high school and shit like that. For me, it didn't happen until I was about 22. So when I went to this church, I mean, I was in Federal Way, and I had a few days before I went to film school. So I was feeling it. Like, it was really. Because this shit bugged me. A big part of who I was was being Catholic. It was a huge part of my fucking identity and shit. We went to church every Sunday, so. And I was an altar boy, man. Yes. I was the altar boy that fucking sat there every Mass and giggled every time the Priest was like, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. You. That's where dogma comes from and shit. But I believed in that stuff wholeheartedly. So there I was in this weird crisis of faith, and I go to this church in Federal Way, and I was sitting in the back. There was like a Mass and stuff like that. The mass was over, and I just sat there praying, you know. And what I was praying about was like, I was trying to hold on to my faith. Things didn't make sense anymore. Here I was in the midst of a big life change as well. Moved to the other side of the country, was about to move to another country to go to film school and stuff. And I was sitting in the back and a priest, younger priest, rolled by, and it was post Mass, so he was in his civvies and stuff. And he goes, you okay? And I said, yeah. I said, I'm just going through it, man. He was like, what do you mean? I was like, I'm having a. Be honest with you. I'm having a crisis of faith. And he goes, oh, well, this is my job. That's what I deal with. And so he said, come with me. And we went to his office, which was like, right off the. The main floor of the church and shit. Right off the sacristy, I guess it was the sacristy. And so I'm sitting there talking to him, and he's like, tell me about it. And I told him all these things about, like, you know, this stuff used to make sense to me, and I believed it, like, Bible truth, but now, like, having a hard time connecting the dots. And, like, I just. Getting older or like, what is it? And he said, well, he goes, it is a bit that you're getting older. He's like, when you were small, when you were a kid, you were like a little shot glass, and it's very easy to fill you up and. Which is such a weird thing to hear a priest say. I was like, huh. Sat down a little bit more in my seat and shit. And he goes, but as you get older, the glass gets bigger, you know, and periodically it's up to you to refill the glass. And that, like, not only did it sustain me for a little while longer, it wound up in Dogma as well as one of the kind of central ideas at the beginning of the movie. So it was there before I went to film school in 92. And that's why I started writing. Like, I wrote Dogma before I wrote Clerks, but it wasn't called Dogma. It was called God. Like, fucking. You know, how ambitious, right? Like, never made a movie. I'm like, I really want to try indie film. My first film will be God. I'll define it for everybody. Shit. And so it wasn't until, like, it started I did a version of the movie that was about 90 pages and stuff, and it resembled the final movie a little bit, but it's not quite there yet. The thing that was made all the difference. I was just talking about outside, one of the folks, Andrew Buss, one of the journalists. The thing that made the difference was Clerks went to Cannes in 1994. So because we were there, we got invited to the first ever screening of Pulp Fiction. That wasn't the official screening that was gonna happen the next day. This was a screening they had, like, on the quiet, like, on the down low, off the Quasit. And it was like every fucking tastemaker and journalist and critic on the planet. Any movie star that was there, and me and Scott Mosher. So, you know, I'm not taking anything away from anybody else there, but, like, we were Quentin. Fucking kids, man. Like Reservoir Dogs. Like, is the reason that I write pop culture dialogue, the reason I make Star wars references in my movies is because I saw Quentin do that whole fucking like a virgin thing where I was like, this counts. Like, I can write movie dialogue, you know? So being at that screening was everything, and we were not prepared for what we saw. Like, for those of you, you know, who weren't there, the moment that Pulp Fiction happened, it was like a gigantic culture bomb. Like, it changed the game. Suddenly there was an independent film that was not just an independent film, but off the beaten path, challenging, while at the same time reminiscent of anything and things you had seen before and whatnot. And it broke a hundred million dollars eventually. Like, that was fucking mind bending and stuff. So I'm at that first screening with Moshe, and at the end of the screening, I turned to Moshe, and I was like, that's possible. Like, you can switch tones like that the way he did, the way Quentin did. And you could bring in violence and use it to shock and thrill the audience. I was like, I have to do another draft of God. And that's when it became Dogma. The next draft, I was like, God's a little too ambitious. Let me go with this. And it became Dogma.

Chris Rock (11:59)

What were the differences of that draft from the shot?

Kevin Smith (12:03)

You know, it was always Bethany. I think a lot of the violence that was in Dogma wasn't present in the earlier drafts that I Had done, like, Loki wasn't the angel of Death, but after Pulp Fiction, I was like, death. So Matt's character becomes like, the angel of Death. But it was always predicated on the seed that was planted. When I was a kid, when I was going to Olph, Our lady of Perpetual Help was my parish and where I went to grammar school as well, first through eighth grade. What was it, 1983 or 1981? It's one of those two. But while I was there, it was the church's centennial celebration, just like in the fucking movie. I mean, I'm honestly, like, some people, like, that's your most inventive movie. I was like, it was invented by Catholics. You know, I was just like, this seems like a Marvel comic. And I just fucking took it and shit. But, like, we had. They announced in the church, like, we're having a day of plenary indulgence in honor of the 100th centennial of our lady of Perpetual Help. The Holy Father has given special dispensation that this will be a location of plenary indulgence. And, you know, as kids, we were like, what's that? And it just captured my imagination the way it was sold to us, which is like, when you walk through that door, all of your sins are going to be forgiven. You start with a clean slate. And it's like that. Like, you know, up until then, you know, I was a kid and I keep my hands around the rules of Catholicism. I'd be good and you go to heaven, Be bad, you go to hell. Then all of a sudden, the Lord's like, but let me. Let me throw you this side fucking deal, man. Like, do you want to get into heaven right now? Act fast. Go through the plenary indulgence gateway. And so even as a kid, I was like. Had questions galore, which they hated. You know, they never like you to ask questions and shit. And I started with the whole, like, but what. What if. What if my sin was really bad? You know? And Sister Anne Louise was like, kevin, how bad could your sin be? And I was like, what if I killed somebody? And she's like, did you? And I was like, no. And she's like, you don't have to worry. I was like, but what if I did? And they were not ready for what if? You know? So I went through that, and that stayed with me. Everyone I went to school with probably forgot about that. But for me, I was like, that just sounds like some. Like, it goes beyond the, you know, rim of faith into fantasy. The idea of, like, Clean fucking slate, which, you know, I was a kid, I really didn't have anything to clean my slate for, but it gave me hope. Because when you're a kid, it's a kind of binary equation, right? It's heaven or hell, but then they throw purgatory in there, which is like. Purgatory is you're not going to Hell, but It may take 10,000 years to get to heaven. I was like, I'll go for that. You know, I'll shoot low and, you know, fucking. Hopefully it'll work out and stuff.

Chris Rock (14:54)

So you shoot clerics. It comes out. You have the Dogma script. It is not the next move you make.

Kevin Smith (14:59)

No.

Chris Rock (14:59)

You said you did not feel like you were ready to make it. Can you talk about.

Kevin Smith (15:02)

Nobody else did either. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Rock (15:05)

Well, talk about the confidence you grew as a filmmaker. What were the experiences you had that felt like you now had the skill set and the sort of management and the scope for it to take on something like that?

Kevin Smith (15:16)

I don't think it was that. I don't think it was me gone. I think I'm ready now. I think it was just leveraging success. That was something I had to learn early on in my career and something they never teach you in film school and something you can only learn when that's kind of happening to you, which is like, you know, in a. My job has been for 30 years to try to remain relevant to the conversation. So Clerks made me relevant to the conversation. Mall Rats made me completely irrelevant, honestly. Like, it's a movie people love now, but when it came out, you know, that was it. Critics fucking hated it, and I was the whipping boys. Like, this is what happens when you give a Sundance kid money. Fuck them, you know? Yeah. So the next movie was Chasing Amy, and that was like. I knew I was gonna make Chasing Amy, but there was a version of it that was, like, set in high and, like, way more mall ratsy and stuff. But after that, I was like, oh, shit, I've lost respectability. I have to get my respectability back. We gotta make something important. Which is so fucking weird to think about, because if I tried to do that, today couldn't happen. You know, if I. Believe me, I would love to make something important. And every time I try, it's like yoga hosers. So, you know, but back then, like, I had a magic enough to be like, oh, we got to make an important film so we can stay in the business. And it fucking worked, man. Talk about privilege and shit. So that was it. Chasing Amy was the Movie that brought us legitimacy back. We went to Sundance, got a standing ovation and shit like that. And people were like, he is a good filmmaker after all. And we were at Sundance for Chasing Amy when we made the fucking approach about like, okay, now we want to do Dogma. And we were looking for, I think the budget was like 4 million at that point. And we were told, no, not with two key elements that we had to switch in order to get to a $4 million budget. One was they wouldn't let Dave Klein shoot it because they were like, you have to work with a world class dp. Wound up being Bob Yeoman, who's a wonderful guy and a world class dp. But it was weird that they separated us from like the guy we came up with. And that was really fucking hard to do. Don't cry for Dave. It all fucking worked out. He shoots every Star War thing there is now the guy who shot Clerks, you know. And believe me, Clerks got a lot of praise. But nobody ever said, looks amazing, you know what I'm saying? People always said, like, eh, you know, I don't look great. But hey, the kids have heart, you know, that that motherfucker built himself up to be the premier dp. He is, is a testimony to him because at a certain part of the journey, they locked him off from us. We got him back for Clerks too, years later and stuff. But it was weird. It was a bit of soul selling in order to get to the goal. Which was weird because we were trying to make a movie about God and I was. Joey and I were dating at the time. We were coming off of Chasing Amy and I had foolishly. And I remember her saying this, such a, like, life lesson. I told her, I was like, you're gonna play Bethany or else I'm not making the movie. And she was like, kevin, you can't say that. I was like, yeah, I can. I was like, I'm not doing it unless it's you. And that same meeting at Sundance, we were told, and Joey can't play the lead. So we were going down the hill. Me and what was it about?

Chris Rock (18:23)

What was just follow up. What was it about Joey that they felt wasn't.

Kevin Smith (18:27)

She wasn't famous enough. Yeah, according to them, even though we were coming off well, Chasing Amy, mind you, was just literally happening at Sundance. So it received a standing ovation. Joey would go on to get a Golden Globe nomination for whatever that's worth and shit. But like that moment right there, they. We had no bargaining power, you know, because we were Looking for more money than we'd ever got from them before now, months later, because that was 97. Well, almost a full year later, before we got closer to production, the budget went up to 10 million, which, like, was comfortable, I thought. But Scott Mosher will tell you different. He's like, that movie needed to be 25 million bucks. That we got it done for 10 million is a testimony to how inexpensive talk is. Talk is cheap, man. So, like, there's, you know, people think about Dogma and they think about some of the bigger scenes or the angelic shit and whatnot, but really it's a movie about people sitting around and talking, like, stoner religious philosophy.

Chris Rock (19:23)

So I want to play some clips and we'll talk about making those scenes and the actors that are in the scenes. So let's play clip number one.

Jesse David Fox (19:32)

Ladies and gentlemen, the driving force behind Catholicism Wow.

Kevin Smith (19:36)

Cardinal Glick. Oh, look at them. Thank you. Thank you. Now, we all know how the majority and the media in this country view the Catholic Church. They think of us as a passe, archaic institution. People find the Bible obtuse, even hokey. Now, in an effort to disprove all that, the church has appointed this year as a time of renewal, both of faith and of style. For example, the crucifix. While it has been a time honored symbol of our faith, Holy Mother Church. Watch him do the eyebrows. This highly recognizable, yet wholly depressing image of our Lord crucified. Christ didn't come to Earth to give us the willies. He came to help us out. He was a booster. And it's with that take on our Lord in mind that we come up with a new, more inspiring sigil. So it is with great pleasure that I present you with the first of many revamps the Catholicism Wow. Campaign will unveil over the next year. I give you the Buddy Christ. Hallelujah. Christ. But that's not the sanctioned term we're using for the symbol. Just something we've been kicking around the office. But look at it. Doesn't it pop? Buddy Christ. So weird because I'm like, a younger, better version of me was such a good filmmaker. What I think of when I see that. Clip number one, I own the Buddy Christ. You know, fucking for the longest time, Christ owned me. I reversed it. You know, there's a guy named the Artist, Dave Devries, I believe his name is. You can find this either on my Instagram or if you just enter a Buddy Christ artist. You'll see it online. It's adorable. He was a friend of Robert Holtzman, Rat Face, our production designer. So Rat Face. Like, I got a guy, he's from Philly. I got a guy who's gonna do the perfect Jesus. And so Dave went and got, from a decommissioned church, a fucking real marble statue of Jesus lopped off the arm and the head to make, you know, what was called for in the script. So if you go look at this picture, Dave, when he was done, took a picture standing next to Buddy Christ. You realize that Dave took his face and made it Buddy Christ's. So for the last 25 years, people have been coming like, you look familiar, man. Like, it's crazy. I have the Buddy Christ. When we were making the movie, I had the foresight to be like, I'm gonna pay for the, for the formation, for the building of the Buddy Christ because I want to own it when it's all done and stuff. So I paid for that. I paid for movie and stuff, because these are things I want to own myself. So the Buddy Christ lives and has lived at Jay and Silent Bob secret stash in Red bank forever. It's still there. And I intend when I drop dead, to be cremated and stuffed up his ass so that people will keep going to Jay and Silent Bob's secret stash after I'm dead. But also, of course, what do I think about. There is like, I see like Ernie in the audience. My friend Ernie, who was one of the reporters. I see there was a guy who's wheeling out the Buddy Christ guy named Gramp, who was like, hung out on the Viewscue message board back in the day, which was like the earliest. That was me on the Internet in the earliest incarnation, like from like late 95 on. And he was like, you know, a 68 year old man who'd been retired from real work and stuff. He had enough time to hang out online and. Cause Clerks was made in New Jersey. He was from New Jersey. He kind of took a shine to it and me. So he hung out all the time. And I would put him in the background and things. And that was a real prominent role. Cause he asked me, he was like, who's playing that Cardinal Glick? And he had a thick fucking Jersey accent. And I was like, he's gonna be Carlin. He's like, carlin's gonna do it. Oh, can you put me up there next to Carlin? I was like, gramp, I could do anything for you, man. And he's in the scene, I see him and I'm like, oh, that's delightful. I forgot about that. But of course, first and foremost, what I think about is George Carlin, who was my hero. He was. When we reached out to him to play the part, I we called Jerry, his manager, and he was like, hey man, who's this? And we said, this is Scott Mosher, Kevin Smith. We made like Clerks and Mall Rats Chasing Amy. He's like, never heard of that. And we said we were co executive producers on Good Will Hunting. He goes, oh, I know that movie. I was like, whew. I was like, anyway, we got a part in this new movie that we would love George to play. And he goes, oh yeah, what is he playing? I said he would play a Catholic cardinal. And he goes, oh, fuck, George will love that. And I said, well, I'm gonna be on the Conan O'Brien show. It was when it was late night, like 12:30 show. I'm gonna be on the Conan and O'Brien show same night as George. I was gonna be there to promote Chasing Amy and George was gonna be there to be George Carlin. So I was like, I could bring a script with me. He's like, that's perfect. I'll introduce you guys. You get talking. I said, great. Hung up. Three days later, George's wife passed away. You know, rather suddenly. I don't think he was prepared when he showed up. He still showed up. Cause George was nothing if not a constant professional. He wasn't prepared to go do his stand up bit. Instead, what he did was an older sit down desk piece that he had done many times before. It was amazing he'd shown up at all. You could tell in his delivery this wasn't the George Carlin that we were all used to. He'd been thrown a real curveball. So as I watched him, you know, I was like, I'm not gonna bug this guy. So I saw Jerry and I said, hey man, here's the script. Like, give it to him. Way down the road when he's passed all these things. You don't have to introduce us or anything. Please give him my best and send my condolences and stuff. Two days later, we got a phone call from Jerry and he goes, hey, George wants to meet with you. And I was like, are you serious? He goes, yeah. Can you be at the Four Seasons restaurant? The hotel? The restaurant at the Four Seasons Hotel at noon on Thursday? And I was like, absolutely. And so I was in New Jersey when I said that it was Wednesday. So I got on a flight that night, got to Los Angeles, and I'm late for everything at all times. So my mother's son, in that way, I don't mean to pass the buck, but fuck her. She made me late all the time. She taught me, kevin, your time is more important than anybody else's in this life and stuff. But that day, I was an hour early. Showed up at the place an hour early, man. Went to the restaurant in Four Seasons. Shit, nobody there. Just me and the waitstaff. Found a perfect table. I said, can I sit here? They said, yeah. Perfect view of the door, man. I do view of every door. So if he decided to come in and exit, I could see him there as well. And there I was now and just waited. And those were in the days before, like, oh, I'm just around on my cell phone. I was literally just hands folded, waiting for George Carlin. This man was a hero of mine. My father and I bonded over George Carlin, man. He gave me George Carlin records when I was a kid. And he said to my mom, he said to me, he's like, don't let your mother hear you listening to this. Put on headphones when you listen to the hi Fi. One time, I was listening to Carlin, and absolutely brilliant. And like that. My mom was talking about in here. She came in, she pulled the cord and she heard that it was Carlin, and she heard him cursing and shit, saying, goc. Suck a motherfucker. And my mom was like, oh, my God. Where did you get this? And I instantly threw my father under the bus. I was like, dad gave it to me. And she was like, don. And my father came in the room, and he instantly saw everything and was like, fuck. And she was like, what are you letting him listen to this stuff for? And he was, grace, don't overreact. George Carlin is Catholic. So that was, you know, this was the guy who, like, I'd gone to see him in concert and stuff like that, couldn't wait to see him and talk about the script. Noon. Timely motherfucker. He walks into the room and this is like, you know, he's adorable. George was never the guy like some comedians, you know, who are always on and trying to make you laugh at shit. You can sit there and have a human conversation with George, it'd be interesting as fuck. But he didn't feel the need to make you laugh at shit. But he knew how to turn it on as well. So this is George Carlin walking into the restaurant. Mind you, I'm the only person in the restaurant. It's me and the staff. There's nobody else. And when he Walks in, you cannot fucking help but see me. This is how George Carlin comes into the restroom, comes over to the table, says, kevin, George Carlins, oh my God, I know who you are. I'm a big fan. He goes, I tell because I read your script. And I was like, you read it? Did you like it? He goes, liked it very much. I was like, what'd you think? He goes, kind of think I inspired a lot of it. And I was like, you did? And he goes, kind of think you owe me co writing credit in places. I was like, well, that's why I reached out to you because you're such an influence, as you can see. I'm even named. Like there's a bit that he does or did about the APostle Rufus, the 13th apostle, stuff like that. So I was, I had a Rufus, you know, for that very reason. So I said, what, can you do it? And he goes, well, that's why I wanted to come talk to you about in person. He goes, as you probably heard, you know, my wife passed away recently. And I was like, I know, I'm so sorry. And he goes, thank you. He's going, thing is, I'm not ready to take off my ring just yet. He's gone. But I know that I'd be playing a Catholic cardinal, and a Catholic cardinal can't wear a ring. He's gone. So this leaves me at an impasse. Unless, think I got a fix. If you're okay with this, I would wear a band aid around my wedding band so I can keep my wedding band on in the scenes. But it would just look like Cardinal Glick is clumsy or something like that, which may go against your vision for the film. Do you have any thoughts? And I was like, I wish you were my fucking father. I was like, that is so fucking beautiful. I was like, you can wear band aids all over yourself, man. Especially for that reason. He goes, okay, then I'm in. So he joined us and you know, of course working with him was absolute fucking dream come true. I always like respected him as an actor, not just as a stand up. He was absolutely brilliant. Brilliant. Something he never aimed for. Very careful to tell you that comedy wasn't the thing he was going for and shit. He wanted to be Danny Kaye. That's why it was easy for me to get him into movies, man, Anybody could have got George Carlin into movies. They just didn't fucking ask. George loved acting. He. He was, he really believed in the craft. He was total method and shit like that. So when he was on Set, you not only got George Carlin, but you actually got, like, a consummate fucking performer like we were. I mean, this is Tales out of School from a different movie. We were on the set of Jersey Girl, but not even on the set in rehearsals. It was me and Ben Affleck and George Carlin rehearsing a scene. And so Ben's pouring his coffee and shit. We're gonna rehearse for an hour before, like, Jennifer shows up and stuff. Ben's pouring his coffee, and George goes, kevin, I have a question for you. As the author of this piece, I said, recognize. And he goes, I'm always giving Greeny shit. In the script as a Steven Root character, I'm always stepping on his dick. And there's no real good reason why he's going. That bugged me. I was kind of bumping into that. He's going, but last night, I wrote a backstory for the character. 14 pages. He's going, it's a story of why I fucking hate Greenie so much, yet we're still friends. It involves a high school hand job. We don't need to go into it. He's going, but I wrote it all. I just wanted you to know I memorized it. I've since threw it out. I won't be referring to it at all when we perform, but just know that when I'm giving Greeny shit, that's what I'm gonna be drawing from. And I turned to Ben. I was like, why can't you be this fucking good, man? So he was. He was everything. He was the absolute most. And he loved to act. So when I reached out to him, he would be like, oh, my God, I would love to come play. And this one, like, he tore to shreds. This was a role he was absolutely born to fucking play.

Chris Rock (31:53)

So, you know, as you said, the movie's a lot of people having conversations with each other. And I was looking at all the Alan scenes and Alan Rickman scenes, and I realized, wait, can I tell you.

Kevin Smith (32:03)

One more thing about George Carlin?

Chris Rock (32:05)

30 minutes.

Kevin Smith (32:06)

But it goes to. This ain't gonna be like, yeah. You might be like, oh, it goes to the thing we kind of talked about. Like, when did I start breaking with my faith? When I. I made it to Dogma with my faith intact. Like all of this Christian mythology. You're out of your mind. This happened. There was war on the rebel planes, and the Morningstar was thrown down. All of that was real. Real as raincoats. And so I'm sitting on set One day and George is there and we're talking about what we're about to shoot and, and you know, I was talking about like the Catholicism angle or fucking like referencing some tenant or whatever of the faith. And George is looking at me and nodding. And then out of nowhere he goes, you really believe in all this shit, don't you? And I said, yeah, you don't. And he goes, no, I'm smarter than that. And he was honestly the smartest person I'd ever met in my life. And so if that guy questioned it, I was like, how am I not questioning it? And then the rest of my faith was kind of went out the window with Scott Mosher doing the first two years of SModcast. He didn't try to disabuse me of my faith, but you talk to an atheist for two years straight, you know, they'll talk you out of your shit. But George, it began really, it cracked hardcore with George because I respected him so much.

Chris Rock (33:29)

We're right back with more Kevin Smith, live from Vulture Festival.

Kevin Smith (33:36)

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Chris Rock (34:06)

Be honest, when's the last time you.

Kevin Smith (34:09)

Had a homemade meal? We get it.

Chris Rock (34:11)

Between meetings, workout classes, and the kids after school sports, who's got time to cook? That's where hellofresh comes in. No matter how busy you get, HelloFresh.

Kevin Smith (34:20)

Has everything you need to get an easy home cooked meal on the table.

Chris Rock (34:23)

With flavor packed recipes like Parmesan herb crusted salmon. You'll be filling your kitchen with the cozy aromas of a homemade meal in no time. So go ahead, try HelloFresh. It's homemade made eas.

Kevin Smith (34:35)

Learn more@hellofresh.com.

Chris Rock (34:41)

Now back to Kevin Smith live from Vulture Festival. So I want to play a scene which I think is some of the best acting in this movie. I think it's really. And it's a scene in the Mexican restaurant by Bethany's house and I think it's just really, really well performed. So I want to play that. That's clip number two.

Kevin Smith (34:56)

Done. And done. If this is so major, why are you talking to me? Why doesn't God do something about it?

Jesse David Fox (35:02)

He could. But he'd rather see you take care of this one personally.

Kevin Smith (35:07)

Why me?

Jesse David Fox (35:08)

Because of who you are.

Kevin Smith (35:10)

And who am I?

Jesse David Fox (35:12)

The girl in the PJs. Don't ask them any questions. Just serve your purpose.

Kevin Smith (35:18)

I'm gonna have to pass.

Jesse David Fox (35:21)

I beg your pardon?

Kevin Smith (35:22)

When some quiet little infection destroyed my uterus, where was God? When my husband decided he couldn't be with a wife who couldn't bear his children, where was God? To hell with him.

Jesse David Fox (35:36)

Don't allow eons of history and life to get blinked out of being just because you've got a grudge against your creator. So you lost the ability to make life. You're being offered the chance to play mother to the world by acting like one and protecting it. Saving it. But I can't make it. However, if you should decide to stop being selfish and accept your responsibility you won't be alone. You'll have support.

Kevin Smith (36:07)

What, more angels?

Jesse David Fox (36:09)

Prophets? In a manner of speaking. Two of them. The one who speaks, and he will, at great length, whether you want him to or not will make mention of himself as a prophet. The other one, well, he's a quiet type. Look, I gotta go. Just try and remember we're working in a timeframe here. Hey, what's he like? God? Lonely. But funny. It's got a great sense of humor. Take sex, for example. There's nothing funnier than the ridiculous faces you people make mid coitus.

Kevin Smith (36:54)

Sex is a joke in heaven.

Jesse David Fox (36:56)

The way I understand it is mostly a joke down here too. I'll see you.

Chris Rock (37:07)

I mean, I think Alan is just incredible.

Kevin Smith (37:09)

Both Linda and Alan are absolutely wonderful in that scene and in the entire movie. When I look at that scene the first, I'll be honest with you, I can't see past performances, or I see past the performances to a random comment made on the earliest days of the Internet about the shot composition in that scene. Some guy who. And it was a fucking guy, I know this for a fact. Said that I didn't know what I was doing. Which, you know, I was like, well, I don't. But the reason he gave haunted me forever. He was like, you look at that scene in the Mexican restaurant. There are like. He. He cuts so many different sizes together and doesn't know how to match. And, like, for the rest of my career, I was like, anytime I worked with the dp, I was like, can we measure from here to there to make sure that These fucking frames are exactly equidistant from the fucking camera. Like, I don't. I can't go through that again. And now I'm watching this scene. It don't fucking matter. You know what I'm saying? Like, nobody ever but that one fucking person ever said anything. And it still haunts me to this day. Scrape that aside. Rickman, man, was just magic. Rickman sought us out. This is crazy. We didn't even try to cast Rickman. Rickman tried to cast himself. I got a phone call from John Gordon. He was working at Miramax. He was like, holy shit, dude. Alan Rickman just came in. I was like, fucking Hans Gruber. And he was like, yeah, man. He's like, we brought him in to talk about this Merchant Ivory thing, but all he wanted to talk about was the guy who made Chasing Amy. And I was like, that's me. You know? He's like, he knows your work. He loved Chasing Amy. So I told him that, like, we're making your next movie, and it's this movie, Dogma. And, you know, I was like, oh, my God. He would be an amazing voice of God. And John was like, that's what I was thinking, man. You want to give him a script? I was like, fuck, yeah. We sent him a script. He jumped on instantly. Not only did he jump on, but he was like, oh, my God, I'm not gonna try to do the accent. He was like, oh, my God. My friend would be great as God. And we were like, all right, who's your friend? You know I'm all about nepotism. So, you know, I was casting my fucking friends. So I was like, who's your friend? He's like, emma Thompson. I was like, yeah, she'd be helpful. Yeah, Fucking, let's get her. She'd be a great God. I wanted Holly Hunter to play God. That's why there's all the piano jokes in the movie and shit like that. But Holly Hunter had just done A Life Less Ordinary with Danny Boyle. And she's like, I already played, like, a fucking heavenly character. I ain't doing that shit again. So we were godless until we had Emma Thompson, and she was on for about two months. And then Emma Thompson wrote me a really sweet letter where she was like, I'm gonna have to back out of the phone because I'm gonna try to have a baby. And, you know when people asked, hey, man, is Emma Thompson still in your movie? I was doing, like, an interview. I was like, no, she's gonna stay home. Try to have a baby instead. So we gotta find somebody else. And then Emma Thompson wrote another letter where she was like, can you please refrain from telling people that I'm trying to have a baby? I opened up my door this morning and there were 10,000 journalists with cameras and stuff like that. And I was like, whoops. So I. We needed to find a.

Chris Rock (40:23)

Wait, this is about Rickman. But you can. You want to talk about God?

Kevin Smith (40:26)

God? Yeah. Just for a second, because I. I got off on the God thing. I was just telling the story outside. That's why Atlantis winds up as God. Because I wanted Atlantis to play the lead. Reached out to Alanis. We were friends. We had met, like, after Chasing Amy. I got a phone call from my agent. He was like, do you know Atlantis Morissette? I was like, she sings that song about blowing people. Yeah, I know who she is. You know, that was a huge radio hit, man. About oral. And that was amazing. So he's like, she likes your movie. She watched it on the tour bus, the Clerks, the whole time they were on tour. She would love to meet you. So I met her and I brought dailies from Chasing Amy, all the VHS dailies. We went to her house. She lived at Tiger Tail and showed like all the footage. And. And she was like, wow, this is a grown up movie now. I said, yeah, that's what I do now. Grown up movies. And I was like, I'm about to do another one and I would love for you to play the lead. You'd be amazing as the lead. And she got scared. She read the script. She was like, I'm not an actor. I haven't acted since. You can't do that on television, you know? She's like, I don't want to get slimed again. And so she passed and she went to India. Like, I'm not saying the script freaked her out, but she was really, like, passionate about not wanting to do it and stuff because she wasn't prepared. Went to India. We went about our duties. Emma Thompson was going to be God at one point and shit. So then Emma Thompson dropped out. Alanis comes back from India. While I'm driving to Pittsburgh from New Jersey. My earliest cell phone, this giant cell phone and call comes in from Atlantis. She goes, hey, man, how are you? I was like, oh, my God, I'm great. How are you? She's like, I'm fantastic. I just got back from India and I feel so inspired and rested. That's when she wrote that thank you song, that whole album. And so she was like, I'm feeling great, and she's gone. I. I really do want to take challenges. Like, she's that kind of person, right? So she's like, I feel like I'm ready to blaze a new frontier. And I know the part that you offered me is probably been cast, but if there's anything left in Dogma that I could play, I would love to come out and hang out with you guys. And I was like, well, there's one small but very crucial role that's kind of wide open. And I told her what it was, and she was like, you think I could do it? I said, yeah. She goes, why? And I was like, I always believed that God was Canadian. Anyway, so fucking so. But anyway, back to Rickman ran. So Rickman got. He was all in on the script early on, Goddess Emma. But then Emma left and shit like that. And he adored the production, but he adored Jason Mewes as well. Like, throughout the movie. Like, Jason Mewes was scared because going into it, I was like, you got to learn your entire script, man. You gotta learn fucking all your lines. You can't, like, be doing the shit you did on Mallrats and Chasing Amy and whatnot. I can't be feeding you lines because we got real actors in the movie this time. And he's like, what? Like Ben Affleck? I said. I said, real actors, man. We'd worked with Ben before. He's like, like who? I was like, fucking Alan Rickman. He's like, who's that? I was like, yippee ki yay, motherfucker. And he's like, bruce Willis? I was like, no, the other fucking guy, man. He's like, Hans Gruber? I said, yeah. He goes, so what? And I was like, well, he's fucking British, man. And Brits invented fucking acting. So if you sit there and snoochy booch him, he'll slap you around, man. Like, you gotta come prepared and shit like that. You gotta come correct for Alan Rickman and stuff. So it put the fear of God into him. I sat down to rehearse with Jay for the first time because, you know, we start, like, back then, a month out from shooting. We would rehearse for, like, a month. So it was just me and him first before I interact with the rest of the crowd and see if. Where he is before I bring him into the rest of the cast. And so we sit down, he has no script, and I'm like, what do you. Where's your script? He goes, I don't need it. I was like, why? He goes, I memorized it. I was like, yeah, right. Let's see. So I start reading lines in his scenes opposite him. Like the Linda Fiorentino lines. He starts spitting his lines right back at me. No script and shit. I was fucking impressed. I was like, well done. Look at you. Let's try another scene. Just as good. That scene. I was like, that's fucking nuts. You did memorize your lines. He goes, I memorize everybody's lines. And I was like, bullshit. And he goes, try me. So I read Ben Affleck lines. He knew Matt Damon's lines. I read Linda lines. He knew Chris Rock's lines and shit like that. And I was like, you memorized the whole script? Who are you, fucking Rain Man? Like, why? Why did you do that? And he goes, I don't want to piss off that Rickman dude. So when he met Rickman, he was so scared of him and shit. And Rickman is, like, such a pussycat and whatnot. And, like, one of my. I talked about recently online, one of my. For gq, a piece they did recently online. One of my favorite memories of my entire career is I'd set up a shot and, you know, I was gonna go to Snack Canyon, grab some fucking food and shit. Because on a movie set, food is free. It's amazing. So I was heading over there and whatnot. And I looked over, and we're at the church, the one in Pittsburgh. And there's Alan Rickman and Jason Mewes sitting on the steps, side by side, deeply engaged in a conversation I can't hear because I'm far away enough that I can't hear it, but close enough that I can fucking clearly see them. Engaged deeply and whatnot. And I remember thinking, what the fuck could these two possibly have to say to one another? But Rickman absolutely loved Jason. He was fascinated by him. He's like. He's an American icon. I was like, really? He goes, you defined your country, so he was sweet. I loved him. I never understood, like, for years that he was friends. He wanted to be friends. I thought he was just being polite because professional courtesy. I hadn't worked a lot in the business, so I just thought, like, when you work with a motherfucker, they have to be nice to you from then on, or something like that. Which I was disabused of that notion by Bruce Willis years later. But at that point, like, I thought he was just nice to me because I put him in Dogma. But, like, over the years, I realized, like, we were friends, he would call Me up. If I was in England, he'd be like, I'm taking you out to lunch. And without me even reaching out to him, he's like, I know you're here. But then when he went to America, he would be like, you owe me lunch. And then I'd have to take him out. So it was really sweet. He was. He was absolutely darling. And we tried to work together one other time, two other times. The clerk's cartoon, originally he was the voice of Leonardo Leonardo, which if you know that cartoon at all, that's why he looks like Hans Gruber. Yeah, because it was meant to be Alan. But then Alan came in and he goes, I don't want to do an Alan Rickman voice. Like, that's boring. That's all I do all day long. He's going, I got a voice for this character. And we were like, all right, go ahead. And the voice he chose was a very pigeon nasally Ross Perot impression because he thought Ross Perot was really funny and shit. So we recorded with him and we're like, that ain't gonna work. And so we wound up putting it to the side. Alec Baldwin became Leonardo Leonardo instead. Jay and Silent Bob strike Back. Alan was going to come and shoot, but he couldn't because he was making some fucking wizard movie that I don't think worked out for him at all, you know, but such a wonderful person. And like, this was a cat who, you know. When I went to see Die Hard, because I was a huge Bruce Willis fan, me and my mom religiously watched Moonlighting and shit. It's probably where I learned to write fast paced dialogue. So I went into Die Hard looking for fucking the pride of Penn's Grove, Bruce Willis himself. But I came out talking about the other guy like, oh my God, this fuck. Who is this guy? And I became a disciple of all of his fucking work. So being able to share time with them and watch him work like he was the last person I ever gave a line reading to, the last actor. Line reading is when you tell an actor how to say a thing. You're supposed to lead the horse to water, but fucking not give them the drink. Right? Like, so you're supposed to be like, it feels like it's coming from here. Some directors are like, you are an elk surrounded by lions, but they think you're a lion too. Act, you know, shit like that. I don't do that. So generally people know what they're. They're doing and shit. And when they didn't, I would be like, don't say it like that. Say it like this. And I would say line and stuff. First person ever identified it was Shannon Doherty. I did it on Mall Rush. She goes, did you just give me a line reading? I was like, is that what it's called? Thank you. Yes. You know, fucking, that's how I direct him. Whatnot is the only way we get a performance out of Jason Mewes. So when we were doing Dogma, at one point, Alan was having a hard time with pop cultural reference and stuff because he didn't get them all necessarily. So he was saying it. And in the middle of the take, I was like, alan, say it like this. And this is the only time I ever saw him remotely cross with me, man. If you're the fucking camera, this is Alex. He's facing the other way. And I'm like, alan, say it like this. And I said, and as I'm fucking saying the line that I want Alan Rickman to mimic, he goes like this. And right. It was the second. This one. That's when I was like, or. Your way is great, you know, Lovely, lovely, man. I miss him very much, man.

Chris Rock (49:00)

Because we have 14 minutes left, we're going to skip to clip number five. Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Chris Rock and Salma Hayek are also in the movie. We will not be talking about them.

Kevin Smith (49:11)

No. Whatever happened to them? Anyway, moving on.

Chris Rock (49:13)

Play clip number five.

Kevin Smith (49:14)

Isn't it crazy that we still have a cast that's valid? Like Salma's still working today. Ben and Matt still fucking working today. Chris Rock still slapping like, fucking.

Chris Rock (49:26)

We'll talk about their availability after this clip. Play club number five. Also, I assume, available.

Kevin Smith (49:44)

Where the did they that thing come from?

Chris Rock (49:46)

Ever heard of Golgotha Skull place?

Kevin Smith (49:48)

The hill where Christ was crucified? Well, it wasn't just Christ up there. The Romans crucified. Everyone got healed. Christ excluded that we're all criminals. Killers, brans, thieves, rapists. And whenever the crucified expire, their bodies would actually lose muscle control, spilling bowel and bladder. And look at that acting. The result of which is walking pile of crap back there. The Golgothan shift in health. Chief assassin. And it's here for you, girly. Bob, get down. Matches. Bugs Bunny right here. Knock strong odors out. Way to go, Biggie.

Jesse David Fox (51:01)

What?

Kevin Smith (51:07)

Don't applaud that. I remember when the movie played at Cannes. Like, I sat down with Janet Maslin afterwards. Janet Maslin had written like this fantastic review of Clerks that started my career in the New York Times, where she said like, something to the effect of like, you know, he spun straw into gold. Like the kind of line that, like, made your mother go like, are you serious? I have to watch your movie again. You know, kind of thing. So I sat down with her, and she loved the movie, but she begged me. She was like, kevin, this movie could win an Academy Academy Award if you take that poop monster out. And I was just like, I can't, man. Janet. I was like, that's like, I put that in there for my boy, Walt Flanagan. Walt Flanagan, one of my dearest friends who is on Comic Book Men and shit. Walter, you know, And I established early on he was the guy that got me back into comic books. And I was like 18 years old and stuff. But there was a standard set for excellence in our. In our youth. And it was described thusly. If there was something that was perfect, you would say that was metal. So I wrote the scene about the Golgothan and his origin I knew would fucking capture Walt's imagination. Because it's like, all the people that were killed on Skull Hill, this is shit that you think about when you're an altar boy and you listen to gospels over and over again and they talk about Skull Hill and you're like, that's so fucking metal and shit. And then Golgotha. So that's in your head too. But then you're also thinking, like, when. When you find out, like, I remember in religion class, Sister Teresa was like, the crucifixion is even worse than you imagine. Like, we had these up to date nuns who had come in when we were like, when I was in eighth grade, who were far more progressive than the, like the ruler knuckle slapping nuns. And. And so those cats would tell us the truth. Like, like they said, you know, in every statue of crucifix, you see Jesus nailed right here. They're like, well, that's horseshit. Because if you nailed somebody here, they would just slip through. So, like, Jesus was nailed here, and that's even more horrifying and shit like that. Then they. They would up the factors like that. And one of them was like, when you're hanging there and they left them hanging forever before you expire, all the fluids come out of your body. And so, like, as a kid, you're like, that's so awesome. How come they don't talk about that in church? Like, fucking. Oh, my God. So when I wrote that scene, I wrote it knowing that Walt was going to read the script and be like, you know, I don't know about all this Catholic shit, but he would hit that and be like, that's dope. So I gave him the script and I remember he calling me and shit. And somebody was like, walter's on the phone. I was like, I hope, I hope it's gonna be what he's gonna say. And I was like, did you read it? And he goes, yeah. I was like, what'd you think? And he goes, golgothan is fucking metal, man. That is so metal. He goes, is that true? And that. Is that in the Bible? And I was like, kinda, you know, so it was weird. I remember like talking to Vince Guastini, who was the special effects designer. He's like, what do you want to look like? He had done designs. There was one design where the Golgothan was nothing but a hundred dicks. It was like Geiger esque. But I was like, I know I'm going the other way, man. It's poop. And so I said, just go for Clayface from Batman, the Animated series. So that's what he looks like, Clayface.

Chris Rock (54:06)

So.

Kevin Smith (54:07)

And that's also like one of those scenes where, you know, people are like, hey man, you ever going to do comic book movie? I was like, I did like back in 1999. That's my fucking Avengers right there.

Chris Rock (54:16)

So this movie has not been available to stream or to see for a very long time. You deny it?

Kevin Smith (54:21)

Except on YouTube. There's been a beautiful 4K version there for years. And whenever I missed my friends, I'd just go watch it. YouTube. Which is easier than going to find my Blu Ray.

Chris Rock (54:29)

So what was it like for you to have this situation where it was a representation of your relationship with Miramax, with the Weinstein and the sort of struggle to get it back? It also was weirdly used as a pawn between Bob and Harvey Weinstein. It's a whole. It's what has this. What was that period like?

Kevin Smith (54:49)

You know, honestly, like I wrote a letter. The first letter I wrote, I wrote three letters. The first one I wrote was, I think we offered 250,000 bucks for the movie. It was just sitting there. They Miramax had the movie. Back in the day. Disney owned Miramax. Michael Eisner was like, you have to sell this movie to Harvey. He didn't even want Harvey to make the movie and stuff. They made the movie. Then he told Harvey, you can't release it. Harvey had already done. Harvey and Bob have both. I'm sorry, I keep saying the name and everybody's asshole keeps Clenching and shit. But it's part of the story, man. Sorry. So the Weinstein's had already had experience with buying a movie back from Miramax because kids happen first, right? The Larry Clark movie, which Disney was like, wow, well done. One, one, one fan. They were, they were like, Disney was like, you can't make that movie. It's tantamount to child pornography or something like that. They made the movie anyway. Then Disney was like, you can't release the movie. Bob and Harvey bought it themselves and released it under Shining Excalibur and stuff. And they made money with it. So there was already a kind of a model for them to go to. So the moment Disney was like, you gotta get rid of that. This is what I believe and I cannot fucking prove this. But knowing all the players, I am relatively sure this is what happened. Disney did not want this movie so badly that they gave it to the Weinstein's and the Weinstein's never paid for it. That was my point of contention when I was going back and forth with them. I was like, look, I know you didn't buy this. I know there is not a single receipt to prove that this was purchased from Disney. And that's fine. But the letter I wrote, I said, I know this is just one of many movies that you were involved in. I said, but this is my fourth film. And a deep expression of my faith at the time, this is all tied in with my father, who's now dead, and my mother as well, who's still alive. So I was like, I'm looking to get this movie back, man. Here's 250 grand we have to offer. Let's start a discussion. Sent it to a convicted rapist, got no response from him. Got it from his lawyer. His lawyer was like, he's not interested. The bid is too low. Wrote another letter, offered 500,000, same thing. Not interested. Wrote another letter, offered a million. Because I reached. I don't have that kind of money, but I reached out to some interested parties who would like to see a Dogma thing go on and shit. And they had money way more than me and shit. And so I was able to go back and be like, how about a million bucks? And no. Then the good folks at Samuel Goldwyn reached out to me and they're like, we could get it from them for this amount of money, would you be involved? And I was like, fuck yeah. But the only problem was there was a backdoor profit corridor back to fucking Harvey. And I was like, I can't be involved if that dude's any way, shape or form involved in this, man, we have to. And they were like, well, that's. We can get the movie back for, you know, and share profits for this price. But to just get the movie and cut him off completely, it's going to be this. And do you have any money? I was like, I don't have that kind of money and shit like that. So the thing went away. Then I got a phone call one day from an organization that bought it away from Harvey. I guess he needed money for his legal fees and shit. And he sold a giant package that was a bunch of kung fu movies, Fahrenheit 9, 11, kids and Dogma. Somebody bought kids right from that company. So, bam, they reached out to me, and I wish that I could have been like, hey, can I buy the movie? But they. This is the crazy thing. They didn't buy it knowing that they had. They just bought this tranche of movies, and then when they looked at them, they're like, ben Affleck's in this one. And then they did the research, and they were like, oh, my God, people know what this movie is and shit like that. So they reached out to me. They were like, clearly you would know what to do with this. Do you have any interest? And I was like, I've missed this movie for 25 fucking years. Yeah, I've got an interest. It'd be like getting my fucking child back. At the very least, like, we could, you know. My business model for the last few years has been take a movie out on tour. We did a with, like, Red State. We did it with Jay and selling Bob Reboot Clerks 3. And I'm in mostly the touring business, man. Standing on stage and talking. I make more money standing on stage talking about making movies than I do actually making movies. So, you know, you're always looking for something that makes it an easier sell. Because every time you go out, unless there's something new going on, you got to hope for the good graces of people still liking you. Not like, you know, I got something brand new. That's why bringing movies out was always fun, because, like, here's a movie, and then we'll do a whole Q and A afterwards, man. And so with Dogma, I look forward to it. That's what we're going to do next year is we're going to tour the movie. My aim is we toured Jay and Silent Bob reboot the 65 fucking cities. So I would love to do that with Dogma, but I honestly feel like if they would let me. And I know people in my life would be like, you have other things to do. But I think I could get to 100 fucking cities. I know they're not going to let me, but I'm going to try. Because I'm telling you, when I go on tour with a fucking movie, it is absolute bliss. It's the finest way for me to exhibit my work. Because you're surrounded by like minded individuals who've been involved in the journey ever since. Nobody in that room going, like, I wanted to see a movie. This was also playing and shit. They're paying like 75 to 100 bucks to sit there and watch the movie with you and then like sit around for two hours of Q and A afterwards. So when I go to these fucking screenings, these tour screenings, man, it's like going to a church where I'm both the priest and Jesus at the same time. And that's what those movies, those secular films, man, could you imagine? I show up with Dogma, which is not only like this expression of faith, but tied into good memories, nostalgia, good memories for a lot of people. So I. It feels like the time is right. Like right now it's the 25th anniversary. By the time we get out there, whether It'll be the 26th, but we ain't calling it that, we'll call it the 25th and whatnot, and I'll take it all around. Then it'll come out on a, you know, like a steel book and then there'll be a streaming partner and stuff. But, you know, I haven't. Like years ago, when we made Dogma, I had like, oh, shit, if I was ever going to do the sequel, this is what I would do. I put those thoughts away a long time ago because it never seemed like it was ever going to come to fruition and shit. Now, like, I've actually afforded myself the opportunity to whimsy again about that world and those characters. Now some people be like, don't fucking touch it. You know, you'll ruin it. And I'm here to tell you I will, I will never be able to make Dogma again. When I watch that flick, I'm just like, look at that brave motherfucker. Like, I remember after this movie there, you know, this is the early days of the Internet. There's still people that would get shitty with you, believe it or not. And they were like, you know, yeah, great, go after Catholicism. You really want to impress me? Go after fucking Muhammad, motherfucker and shit. And I was like, no, thanks, but I wouldn't. I was never about going after a religion. Dogma is an expression of faith. Like, that was my big objection to when people whipped it into a frenzy when the Catholic League and fucking the. What is it? The tradition, Family property, tfp. That was the second organization that went after it. They didn't even see it. It was predicated on things they heard. Not seeing the movie. If you'd seen the movie. Yeah, once you get past the butt fucking jokes, like, it played like Sunday school. So much so that years later, now 25 years later, I get fucking priests on my social media who used to be like, oh, you're going to hell. And they'll be like, I use this all the time with young parishioners and shit. I'm like, fucking. I knew it was a marketing tool, but it's weird because now when I watch the movie, it's like watching the last vestiges of my faith. That's kind of where it all went. Like, I'm bemused by the movie because I remember the kid that wrote that film. And so now, years later, in a world where, like, I can start whimsying again and going like, what would a follow up to Dogma be? Like, I was just in Vegas the other night doing the Rave, the Reader, Author Vegas event. A bunch of independent writers and publishers and shit. Really inspiring because a bunch of creatives who are outside the system have the whole fucking economy of their own. Don't need to fuck with like big publishers and fucking Audible or anything like that. Really making a go of it. So I was way inspired. I was there to give like a keynote address, but just fucking listening to them all talk, I was like, fuck, this is the world I came from, man. Like self serving. Like, I. I had to learn how to do shit myself because nobody was ever coming to Jersey to be like, here, go make a movie and shit like that. So I've always been able to pivot left and right throughout my career. If somebody wasn't going to give me money, fuck it, we'll go over here and do this instead. Maybe drop the budget. So as I was leaving Vegas feeling fired up, I was supposed to like, fly home the next morning, but I was like, you know what, man? Fuck, I'm gonna drive because that's when I write. You know what I'm saying? Like, writing is not. This is muscle memory. When you sit down at the keyboard and shit you've already written, when you do this, it's just all that shit that you'd been Writing when you weren't at a fucking keyboard. So I was like, I got four fucking hours, man, Between Vegas and Los Angeles. Be driving from 12 at night till 4 in the morning. Let me see if I can whimsy what a Dogma fucking sequel could look like. And I'm here to tell you, like, I'm fucking tickled. I found a way in. But I don't know if it's gonna make anyone happy, because I think most people be like, oh, a sequel. The whole gang's coming back. Most of them are alive still, with the exception of George and Alan. The cast is all still around and stuff. But, like, I can't. It wouldn't. Why do hell, Hail the gang's all here. Like, you have to do something different. Like, Dogma is absolutely inspired because it was written by a kid who hadn't entered the movie business, who hadn't built a career over 30 years, who hadn't turned himself into the main attraction and became himself for a living. It was written by a kid who was struggling with his faith. I'm no longer that kid. I don't struggle with my faith anymore. I know exactly where I stand. So I don't know that I could say anything about Catholicism, especially in light of the fact that just recently they came out with their own fucking symbol where they're like, this is loose. I don't know if anybody saw this, but the Catholic Church announced a symbol just like Buddy Christ. Because they were like, look, man, for the younger generation, the cross is a little too much. So here's loose. And he looks like a little fucking Funko doll. It's a little shepherd kid with big eyes, and he's holding, like, a staff, and it has a small crucifix. I swear to Christ, if you Google L, U, C, E right now. This is not a joke. It didn't come from the Onion or anything like that. The Catholic Church announced this initiative where they're like, we're trying to reach out to the pop culture kids, the youth and whatnot. And we're trying to do so with a child. It is so fucked up, man. But it makes Buddy Christ like, Buddy Christ like, was a ridiculous notion. This is even more fucking ridiculous. I don't think I can parody that fucking church and shit. But it did afford me a moment where somebody online was like, bro, you had a Simpsons moment. You called it and shit. And I was like, I did, didn't I? So I don't think I can. Like, I'm not. Don't expect me to Go out there and be like, hey man, this is the Catholic Church today and shit. You got plenty of people to, like, skewer faith and whatnot. I found a different way in that I think complements the Dogma, like, insanely well. Honestly. Like, when I was done thinking of it, I was like, you know what, man? Like, this is gonna sound so fucking gross. And I know it's. You know, one day someone will hold it against me if we ever get to make this movie. But I was like, that's kind of clever. And that's what I thought of when I thought of Dogma years ago. I was like, that's kind of clever. Like, when you're trying to write something, all you're trying to do is say something nobody else has said before. And if I just sequelize Dogma, that's just me saying it again, it's redundant. But if I can fucking make a companion for it, like that says something completely new while still kind of, you know, buttressing what was there and whatnot and building off of what was there, that'd be an interesting exercise that the kid who wrote this shit years ago never would have saw coming. So, you know, if you stick around long enough and if you live through heart attacks and whatnot, there's a chance that all of your dreams come true.

Chris Rock (66:45)

Is that the thing you are working? Is that the thing that you are aimed at now?

Kevin Smith (66:50)

I think so. The first thing I have to do is sometimes you bite off more than you could chew, man. I've got a bunch of things that I have to finish first. But one of the main things I got to finish before. Before I dive into a Dogma sequel script, even though, you know, I'll sit here writing it from now and so I'll drive home from here and I'll be writing it and shit like that. But the next thing I have to physically write is another draft of Moose Jaws, which is the movie I've been. I'm born to make, which is just Jaws, but with a moose instead of a shark. One more draft of that and I think we'll be an inch closer to getting it done.

Chris Rock (67:22)

And you imagine from touring it, you'll have more ideas because you'll be engaging with.

Kevin Smith (67:26)

I gotta. I gotta imagine, like, you know, every day is a school day, so you get ideas all the time and stuff. And especially if you find a direction. Like, I remember, like, the whimsies that I'd had about a Dogma sequel back in the day, I can't really follow through on now. For example, if we had done a Dogma sequel 20 years ago, 25 years ago when the movie came out, or a few years after that, say even 20 years ago, Alanis would have been the lead because God shows up and makes Bethany pregnant and shit. So I was like, oh my God, the kid should look like God. So Alanis would have been our lead and stuff. But the story needs somebody in their 20s to be the driver and stuff. And Alanis looks like she's in her 20s, but is no longer in her 20s and stuff. And so I don't think that way in works. And there was an idea that I had that I might still fucking hold on to Jay and Silent Bob. Like when they go to find Jake, they put a team together. When they find Jay, there is no Silent Bob. And he explains that like, we don't talk to each other anymore. He goes, well, he never talked, but like we had a falling out and shit. And he went a different way with his life. And they're like, what way did he go? And then you cut to like a giant tent, you know, in the middle of a dust field and shit. And you hear a fiery Baptist preacher working a fucking crowd. And you cut inside and it's Silent Bob just spitting fucking biblical verses and shit like that. See, I might hold on to that idea. That still works.

Chris Rock (68:48)

So we are well over time, but it does feel like it. Just in case anyone came here specifically for stories for the these cast members, we're gonna do a lightning round. As close as you can do for lightning. I'm just gonna say the names of the people we've already mentioned. You just sort of a short memory of them on set. So, Salman, a real life memory? Yeah, from them in Dogma.

Kevin Smith (69:06)

I thought you were like, tell us what their characters are gonna do next. And shit.

Chris Rock (69:09)

Oh, you can also do that.

Kevin Smith (69:10)

Fuck it. I gotta think about that a lot more before I'm like, it could be this, but go ahead.

Chris Rock (69:15)

So. All right. So how Salma Hayek a memory from her.

Kevin Smith (69:18)

Salma Hayek wonderful in the movie. But when I think of Sama and Dogma, I always think about in pre production on the movie, when we're in rehearsals, Miramax was like, you have to go out to the Spirit Awards. We're getting out. And I swear, this last thing, like, you got to go out to the Spirit Awards. And because Chasing Amy was nominated for a bunch of shit, I said, I can't go anywhere. We're about to make this fucking expensive ass movie. I'm standing right here In Pittsburgh. And they're like, kevin, you have to go because you're gonna win an award. And I was like, well, fucking put me on a plane and shit. And so I was getting a screenplay award. And so I had met this journalist while I was out in Los Angeles, like, a month before because I was rehearsing with Chris Rock because Chris Rock was working on one of the Lethal Weapons, and Joel Silver wouldn't let him go. Scott Mosher called up and said, like, hey, hi. We're supposed to have Chris Rock has stop day pass. And Joel Silver was like, well, we're not stopping. And he hung up. And so I had to go to Los Angeles to rehearse with Chris Rock. So I'm rehearsing with Chris Rock at what used to used to be the Bell Age Hotel. It's now the London, I think, or something like that. And we rehearsed for like two hours and. And then we were done. He had to go back to work at Lethal Weapon. And he's like, what are you doing tonight? I was like, I might go to the Details Young Hollywood party. And like that I'm not quite sure because Jason Lee's gone, so I might go meet him there. And Chris Rock goes, well, this is Hollywood, man. You should do something. You're by yourself. You should get a hooker. And I was like, nah, that'd be weird and shit. I gotta catch a flight and whatnot. And so, no, he's like, well, I'll think about it, you know, and he left and shit. So I was supposed to do an interview that day that I'd forgot about because I'd spent so long with Chris. And they told me, you're gonna be meeting with the USA Today journalists. It was a strategic meeting. They wanted me to go speak to the journalist because there was a rumor in town that Ben and Matt had not written Good Will Hunting by themselves. And this was a movie that was going to be up for Oscars and shit. Like that is definitely in the running. So there was some, like, you know, I guess the dreamworks people, whoever was competition was, like, thrown out. Like, hey, man, I don't think those guys did write that movie. I think it's horseshit and whatnot, because they had met with William Goldman at one point. But William Goldman sat down with the boys and was like, I wouldn't change a fucking thing. Don't listen to anybody else and shit. So nobody ever did work on that script of those kids. So, like, believe it or not, somebody also thought I worked on that script. So like, we need you. We can't get Bill Goldman to go out there and talk about. We need you to go out there and tell people that you didn't write goal hunting, that they did. And while you're doing it, you could talk about the year you've had Chasing Amy and what's coming up with Dogman. So that was the idea. And they're like, you're gonna meet with a woman named Jennifer Schwalbach. And I'd met people from USA Today and they were all like 60, they looked like my mom. And that name Schwalbach sounded old and German as. So I'd forgotten I was gonna have this fucking interview and shit. And so Chris Rock leaves 20 minutes later, man, there's a knock at my door and I open up the door and there's this like gorgeous 25 year old girl standing there and whatnot. And she's like dressed in a leather jacket and she had fucking jeans on and shit. She was like young like me and shit. And so I did not put together that she was the journalist from USA Today at all. And this was the woman I would eventually marry. And the first thought I had, the first thought I had about the woman I would eventually marry, when I opened the door and saw her, I said, oh my God, Chris Rock sent me a hooker. So we met and she wasn't a hooker. And she interviewed me and I gave a great interview and shit. So cut to, you know, me going to the Spirit Awards because they're making me go, I've been talking to Jennifer Schwabach a lot on the phone and she was covering like all the major awards. She did the Oscars, she did with Golden Globes and shit. So I called her up and I was like, hey man, you can do the Spirit Award. She goes, I uncovered that shit. And so, you know, I was like, oh, it's a shame. She said, why? I said, because I got to go out. I said, they tell me I'm going to win an award. And she was like, oh, so who are you going with? And I was like, well, I don't know anybody in Los Angeles except you. So do you want to go? Not as a date, but you want to just meet up there? And she was like, yeah, okay. And I was like, oh, fucking great. So when I got off the phone, I went downstairs to rehearsal to speak to Selma because I had agreed to go to the Spirit Awards with Salma Hayek. So I said, but not as like a date or anything like that. She was like, kevin, you're going to the Spirit Awards. I'm going, too. Let's go together. I was like, all right. Fucking nice. It'd be a good thing for dogmanship. So I go to Salma, and I was like, salma, remember that journalist I was telling you about? Like, I'm gonna go. She said she would meet me at the Spirit Awards. So, like, if you don't mind, like, I'm gonna go with her. And Salma Hayek looked at me, she goes, kevin Smith. Nobody has ever dumped me before. It worked out for her because she married a billionaire and shit like that. Anyway, that's Salma.

Chris Rock (73:52)

Yeah, there you go. You talk about Chris. One Madden Ben story from this, and we will leave, I promise. It has to be one minute long.

Kevin Smith (73:59)

One man Ben story. The boys are absolutely, like, wonderful on the film. And, you know, you got to remember they were going through it at that moment. Their entire lives changed. Like, people had known them for movies. And Ben, you know, had a breakout with Chasing Amy and shit. He had been in Days of Confused. He'd been in Mall Rats, but those are smaller movies. Chasing Amy, he was the lead. And people like, hey, man, this guy's got a future and shit like that. Matty, of course, had done, like, what was it? The Rainmaker and Courage Under Fire and stuff like that. So these cats, like, had juice coming into this. And then with Good Will Hunting, that got us a $10 million budget, like. Cause they were like, well, this is the boys follow up. And believe me, they tried desperately at Miramax to put them into anything other than fucking Dogma. But God bless him, the kids were loyal. Originally, it was supposed to be Ben and Jason playing Bartleby and Loki. Jason Lee. But Jason Lee went to France to do a cooking movie and shit. And so we recast, and we recast with Ben's friend. Ben's like, I got a buddy who could do it. And I was like, ugh, nepotism. And so fucking Matt came on board, and then Jason was done with his move early. Is anything left? And we were like, all right, you can come in as Azriel. So Ben and Matt, like, definitely brought heat to the production, naturally. But during the filming of the movie is when the Oscars happen. So we were shooting at the airport, the scene where, like, they arrive in the beginning of the movie where Bartleby and Loki get the message and talk to the Betty Aberland nun and stuff like that, that. And when they were done, they were getting onto a fucking plane to come back to Los Angeles to Go to the Oscar ceremony. Now. They had done the Golden Globes already. And when they. Joey was at the Golden Globes as well, because she was up for Chasing Amy and they won for Good Will Hunting and fucking thanked everyone in the world. Like, who are we forgetting who? God. Anyway, thank you everybody. And Joey went over to Ben afterwards that night and flipped him a corner. She goes, you got somebody to call? Because Ben forgot to thank me and Scott Mosher and shit. So Ben called me up that night. He's like, bro, oh my God. He's going, I feel like a dick. I am a dick. I was like, you are. I was like, my mom was watching, goes, I know I let Grace down, man. He's gone. I promise you, Kev, I swear to Christ, if we win for the Oscars, you were the first. You and Scott are the first people getting thank. I swear, I swear to God, I was like, don't worry, man. Don't worry, don't worry. It's fine. And so we're there in Pittsburgh making the flick. We put Ben and Matt on the plane. Go get em, boys. Like, this is a project that me and Moshe put into the hands of Miramax. And that's why it fucking happened. And our friends are fucking rising and like the whole world's talking about him and shit. Put them on the plane. They win their Oscar. They're jumping around on stage. It's like one of the greatest Oscar moments in history. And they're going through a laundry list of names and shit. And we're like, all right, he didn't start with us, man. And this is the really weird thing is we're in Pittsburgh and we had an Oscar watching party with the cast and the crew. So everyone's sitting there going like. And as they're thanking people, like, you guys are next. And we're like, we know. And then they're like, thank you. And they got played off and they still didn't fucking thank us and shit like that. So, you know, we were like. And everyone's like, oh, my God. There was a death silence in the room and shit. And we were like, that's fucking fine. Don't worry. Ain't like that. And then me and Mo, I was. Me and Mo's gonna go grab a cigarette. And we went to Moser's room and cried like, what the fuck? Twice. Like. So I have, you know, in truth, been able to hold that over both of their heads for 25 fucking years. Which is why they keep showing up in all the movies. Like, when you're like, why would they be in Jay and selling Bob reboot? Because I'm like, you forgot to thank us on the Oscars.

Chris Rock (77:45)

So you can expect a cameo from them and whatever the dogma.

Kevin Smith (77:48)

Fuck yes. Oh, more than a fucking cameo. The only way we get a dog sequel made is if they're there. So count on those guys being in there as well.

Chris Rock (77:55)

Kevin Smith, thank you so much. Have a good Sunday.

Kevin Smith (77:58)

Give it up for Jazzy. Man, that was hard. Excellent job. Have a blessed day, kids. Enjoy. Go write something.

Chris Rock (78:09)

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good producer of myself and Jelani Carter Gin did our theme song, write our view and rate the show on Apple podcast five stars please. I am Jesse David Fox. You can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York Magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com Pod be back next week with a new episode. Have a good one.

Kevin Smith (78:38)

Welcome to Good One show about talking them jokes. Hey, hey, Good one. It's a good one.