Kumail Nanjiani Made One of the Best Comedy Specials in Years

Summary

Good One: Kumail Nanjiani Made One of the Best Comedy Specials in Years

Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Jesse David Fox
Guest: Kumail Nanjiani

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Overview:

This episode of Good One dives into Kumail Nanjiani’s long-awaited return to standup with his Hulu special "Night Thoughts", following a 12-year hiatus. Host Jesse David Fox and Nanjiani explore the personal and professional journey behind the special, the changing comedy landscape, lessons from theater and TV, the impact of fame, and how vulnerability informs both life and art. It’s a candid, insightful, and often hilarious look at the craft of standup, the emotional toll of reinvention, and what it means to truly own your story.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Kumail’s reconnection with standup after a decade focused on acting, writing, and other creative pursuits.
• The evolution of his comedic voice, confidence, and on-stage persona.
• Inside stories on creating, honing, and structuring his special "Night Thoughts".
• Navigating public perception after fame, physical transformation, and a Marvel flop.
• The impact of community, vulnerability, and personal milestones on creative work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Hollywood Back to Standup: Why Now?

• First Special in 12 Years: "Night Thoughts" marks Kumail's return to standup after a decade in film and TV, most notably after The Big Sick and Eternals.
• Catalysts for Return: Jesse's 2022 live podcast and encouragement, as well as conviction from friends like Brett Goldstein, helped rekindle Nanjiani’s standup fire.
  “You were one of the big factors.” – Kumail Nanjiani (07:22)
• Testing the Waters Post-Hiatus: Kumail describes early sets at Largo and London’s Always Be Comedy—first nervous and present, then slipping into old habits before figuring out his new, mature comedic self.

2. Artistic Growth: Learning from Theater and TV

• The Play "Oh, Mary": Kumail describes learning about timing, shared focus, and dynamism from live theater—skills he never consciously developed in standup or screen acting.

  "In stand up, you can have a heckler, you can riff... Ultimately, one person in control can exercise more control than five people." (03:49) "I've never in my life thought about comedy delivery or timing. I've just never thought about it... Here, you notice, 'Oh, I said it slightly differently. And the laugh was bigger.' So for the first time, I've actually thought about timing." (05:46)

• Translating Lessons: Experience in drama and ensemble work shines through in his precision and presence on stage.

3. Navigating Success, Failure, and Public Perception

• After The Big Sick: Oscar nomination ushered a whirlwind of Hollywood attention.

  "That window doesn't always last forever. And I've been very aware of that since the beginning."

• The Eternals Fallout: Kumail became the public face of Marvel’s first big flop and underwent intense scrutiny, especially for his physical transformation: “A lot of people saw me getting in shape as a betrayal... I've become a jock or whatever it is, and I really haven't. I'm exactly the same person.” (39:11)
• Returning to Standup as Response: Addressing misconceptions, Kumail sought to reclaim and share his true self through his most personal medium.

4. The Creative Process & Standup Craft

• Punchline Density: A proud craftsman, Kumail’s method involves outlining stories in Google Docs, bolding punchlines to ensure rhythm and density—striving for setups with multiple punchline payoffs rather than "just hanging out funny."

  “I write my joke, my whole story on Google Docs and I bold all the punchlines and then I can look and see, oh, there’s not a punchline here for a while… That was a challenge, especially for the last story in my special.” (18:34)

• Influences & Scene Evolution: Observes the decline of LA’s alt scene outside Largo, a shift toward homogeneity, and the impact of changing comedic "North Stars" (the pivot from inward-focused Louis CK-style comedy to outward-facing Dave Chappelle-style).

5. Crafting “Night Thoughts”

• Shaping the Special: The special is structured to gradually shift from classic jokes into more personal, vulnerable territory—in particular, material about his cat, Bagel, became both a tribute and a narrative anchor. “When I get to the Bagel part is when I consider the set to really start... all that was a platform so I can talk about this.” (30:43)
• Permission and Safety: Kumail asks his audience directly before transitioning to the emotionally weighty section, thanks to advice from Martin Starr.

  “When you ask them that, really ask them... It puts them in a different mindset…part of the job of a comedian is to be like, I am in control here. Don’t worry.” (31:32–32:36)

6. Vulnerability, Mortality, and Seeing the Self

• Loss and Mortality: The illness and eventual loss of his cat brought home the reality of aging and mortality, themes woven into the special (also influenced by turning 45).

  “When Bagel first got sick… is genuinely the first time I actually emotionally felt my own mortality.” (35:24)

• Drawing Boundaries: After the public exposure of The Big Sick, Kumail discusses carefully choosing what to reveal and what to keep private, especially as both he and his wife Emily become recurring figures in his material. “Now I want to say stuff about it and own a little bit of that conversation and say my perspective on it. And then people are going to have reactions to that too.” (40:28)

7. Reconciling with Comedy and Community

• Performance, Self-Perception, and Audience Perception: Kumail unpacks how his image changed with fame and muscled-up Marvel roles, and the necessity of recalibrating stage persona accordingly.

  “I truly feel like the same person... But the way people perceive me really has changed... I have to be careful. There are certain things that I can’t really do anymore that I used to be able to do on stage.” (26:40)

• Ending on a Communal Note: The special closes with a call for connection and mutual recognition, inspired by Emily's view of comedy as a kind of secular church. “Comedy or going to the movies is like, the closest thing she has to church. Really feels like we're all in this together, feeling the same things at the exact same time... I wanted to create a sense of community.” (69:26-71:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Artistic Process

• “For the first time, I've actually thought about timing. Where the pause should be, what part should be loud, what part should not be loud…” – Kumail Nanjiani (05:46)
• “The performing standup came back quicker than writing stand up did. It took me a while to remember how to write standup again.” (16:36)

On Challenges in Comedy Today

• “So much of when I was coming up... all that mattered was originality and point of view… now I was watching all these comedians, and I was like, this is all the same material.” (20:46–21:29)
• “Comedy is sacred. There is no higher form of art than comedy.” (92:00, on Steve Martin/Conan/Martin Short)

On Vulnerability and Public Persona

• “I've become a jock or whatever it is, and I really haven't. I'm exactly the same person. I'm still the same nerd... But now I've become not one of us.” (39:11)
• “I want people to laugh a lot, but I also want people to feel warm or at least a little bit more hopeful coming out of it…” (71:10)

On Mortality

• “People have been like, when you turn 40, 40 was fine. When I got to 45… more than likely, I'm more than halfway through this whole thing. And then Bagel got sick, and I was just like, oh my God.” (35:24)

On the Power and Limits of Art

• “There are people who are huge fans of Star Trek who are incredibly racist and it's like, how can you do that? The whole point of Star Trek is not that they had the first interracial kiss on screen and you're against interracial dating. That's crazy.” (01:10, 71:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Reflections & Play Stories: 02:35–07:15
• Returning to Standup & Influence of the Podcast: 07:15–16:36
• Structure and Writing Process for Standup: 16:51–19:31
• Changing Comedy Scenes: 19:31–22:58
• Public Persona and Muscle Transformation: 26:01–29:01
• Bagel the Cat – Emotion in Comedy: 29:30–33:47
• Mortality and Vulnerability: 35:24–38:07
• Dividing Personal and Public Life: 37:20–40:28
• Closing the Special – Community and Emotion: 69:04–76:43
• Standup Craft and Google Docs Method: 16:51, 44:14
• Comedy Heroes & Influences (“Who are your guys?”): 86:01–89:46
• Favorite Bomb (Bonnaroo story): 97:03–98:57

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Additional Nuggets

• Comedy Style: Kumail values originality above all, resisting the meme/gif-ification of humor and striving for uniquely personal expression in every sentence.

  “The idea of GIFs and memes is so against everything that I consider to be like good communication... It was like you had to really always be writing new stuff and pushing yourself.” (66:32)

• No-Kids Conversation: Kumail discusses why the child-free topic, widely covered by peers, wasn’t central for him: “Us deciding to not have kids wasn’t really a decision. It just sort of was like, do we want to?... I just didn't ever feel like there was anything missing in my life.” (45:28)
• Working with Comedy Legends: Shares stories about Robin Williams, Steve Martin, Martin Short—highlighting their reverence for the craft (91:44–93:16).
• Bombing at Bonnaroo: Kumail recounts an epic comedy fail that turned into a badge of honor (97:03–98:57).

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Tone and Character

The episode is candid, thoughtful, sometimes raw, often self-deprecating—matching Kumail’s reflections on vulnerability and authenticity. The banter with Jesse is relaxed, deep, and occasionally nerdy, full of inside baseball for comedy aficionados.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for fans of standup and anyone curious about balancing creative ambition and personal truth. Kumail’s journey back to the stage becomes a larger meditation on the growth that only time, failure, and honest reckoning can bring. In Jesse’s words:

“This special… I was like, Kumail is a great stand up comedian. Like, really a great stand up comedian. So much so that I was like, I don’t want him to do anything else.” (78:12)

And for Kumail, in the end, it’s the pursuit—of story, warmth, community, and laughter—that matters most.

Transcript

[Kumail Nanjiani]

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

I have to think that art has to be able to have some sort of impact, you know, and I think stand up comedy is, can be particularly powerful because it's speak, because it can speak so directly. Like, you know, I think movies, TV shows obviously have points of view, but I think stuff gets lost. There are people who are huge fans of Star Trek who are incredibly racist and it's like, how can you do that? The whole point of Star Trek is not that they had the first interracial kiss on screen and you're against interracial dating. That's crazy.

This is good one.

[Jesse David Fox]

I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer, Vulture and author of Comedy Book. My guest today is Kumail Nanjiani, whose special Night Thoughts comes out on Hulu on December 9th. It is Khamail's first stand up special in 12 years. And it is good. Like really good. It's my favorite special of the year. It is arguably one of the best handful of specials released by anyone over the last decade. As we discussed, the special is largely influenced by the strikes of 2023 and the reaction Kumail received for getting jacked and co starring in the first Marvel movie to truly bomb the eternals. And as you'll hear, Kumail's return to stand up was also a little bit, or maybe a lot bit influenced by him appearing on this podcast in 2022. So here is Kumail Nanjiani. I'm here with Kumail Nanjiani. Thank you for joining me.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Thank you for having me.

[Jesse David Fox]

What is the funniest thing that happened to you this week.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, so I've been doing this play. Oh, Mary. And it's, you know, it's a live show, so, like, stuff happens. So this thing happened last night where there's a part where me and You've had jinx on. Yeah, she plays Mary. I play her husband. She's her husb. Her husband?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He doesn't deserve a name. And there's a part where she'd be like. I yell at her, and she storms off, and my assistant opens the door for her, and she sort of, like, has a moment with him and storms out. And so I'm sitting at my desk. He opens the door, but he opens it kind of too hard. So, like, the door, like, hits the wall, and it's kind of slowly bouncing back, And I'm just looking, and I'm seeing her. She. The door is behind her, and she's gonna turn around and storm out. And I know what's gonna happen. I'm like, she's gonna run into this door. So f. And I'm just sitting there. There's nothing I could do. I'm like, in the next 15 seconds, something crazy is about to happen. And she turned, and she slammed right into it, and the whole wall shook. It was huge. And then she made it. She was really funny. She made it like it was his fault. She was like, get off me. And the audience knows in that moment that, like, oh, that was not supposed to happen. You know, stuff like that happens all the time. There's a time where I, like. I'm supposed to grab a whiskey bottle out of her hand, and we, like, really got into a tussle, and I pulled it out, but it slipped my hand, and it went and hit an audience member in the chest. And then now that's a prop for the rest of the episode. So now I kind of have to, like, figure out how to get. Stay in character while get the bottle from this guy. There was one time there's a part where she's like, I'm bleeding. And I'm like, you're not bleeding. She's pretending to be hurt. I go, I'm bleeding. And she's like, I'm bleeding. I'm like, you're not bleeding. And I look, and she's actually bleeding. There's blood pouring out of her hand, and everyone in the audience can see it. And it happened exactly at that moment. I've never done a play before, and it's really exciting because of. You know, when you have so Many different cast members. Just the random shit that can happen really increases. Like in stand up, you can have a heckler, you can riff and all this stuff. Ultimately, one person in control can exercise more control than five people. And it's also such a high energy, fast show when things, like, go slightly off. It's very exciting.

[Jesse David Fox]

I will say, I saw it a few weeks ago, and you come out for the curtain call. You know, you're second to last. And I would say, I don't think I've ever seen you happier in your entire life. You're like. You're like. You're like a little kid who is so excited about what they got to do and get to continue doing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. Thank you. I really am loving doing it. Honestly, the first week was pretty challenging. And then the second week suddenly was like, oh, a lot more. Halfway through the first week, I realized, like, oh, I know where I'm headed. I know what this is, and I have to get there. I'm not there. So the first week is figuring out where to go. And then the second week was all honing in stuff. And then after that, it's just been kind of playing. And, you know, I've been doing comedy over 20 years. I have learned new stuff about comedy in the last two months that I did not.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of anything specifically?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, well, one thing. You know, I've never in my life thought about comedy delivery or timing. I've just never thought about it. Like, when I'm preparing for a role, I prepare everything. I do not prepare how to say the comedy lines, the joke lines. I just turn my brain off, see how it comes out. Same with standup. I don't think about timing. I don't think about delivery. Say this loud. Say this off. I don't think about that. I have to go by instinct here. You're doing the same lines every night, and you noticed, like, oh, I said it slightly differently. And the laugh was bigger. And so for the first time, I've actually thought about timing. Where the pause should be, what part should be loud, what part should not be loud, all that kind of stuff. Almost like a little bit more scientific. I think it's going to be really interesting when I go back to do to shoot something, how that's going to affect that. The other thing I've learned is when you're in a movie or TV show, the director, the editor, is deciding where the audience is looking. Right? Cause they're making cuts. Close up on you now. We're looking at you close up now. They're looking at me on stage. The actors are deciding where the audience is looking. So I learned if someone else has a punchline, I have to stay completely still. Cause if I move, it pulls focus away and then the joke doesn't land as well. And so you're kind of like paused in this whole staying frozen in that emotional space for them to say the line. Once they get the laugh, I can react. Because if I start reacting as they're talking, the laugh is smaller. I'd never had to worry about that before.

[Jesse David Fox]

Fascinating. So I want to discuss your standup special and how I single handedly got you to return to standup comedy.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You were one of the big factors.

[Jesse David Fox]

We're going to get this, but I want to provide some context of why you were away for stand up for part of the time, which is in 2017, you released the movie the Big Sick. It is a surprise hit. You know, I can't imagine you're like, oh, we'll do this any movie. It was gonna be as big as it was. You get nominated for a freaking Oscar. And I assume Hollywood does the thing Hollywood does periodically where they're like, what if we just open all the doors and see if this is gonna be a person? We're just gonna like, all rally around. And I imagine it was very exciting.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Can do.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of a moment or story that captures that year after the Big Sick where Hollywood was like, excited to have meetings with Kumail and all from different things?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean, you know, that year was crazy. The next year was crazy. I mean, it's crazy. We were backstage at some gala, something, I forget where. We're in this small room. It's me, Emily and a bunch of other people. And Tom Hanks walks in and everybody looks over like, oh, my God, Tom Hanks is here. And he sees us and comes straight to us. He wants to talk to us. Like, wow. So that kind of stuff, you know, to me, the most exciting thing was getting to meet people who I've been a fan of forever, like Steven Spielberg or Guillermo del Toro or Tom Hanks, these kinds of people, and have them treat you like an equal in some kind of way. That was really, really, really, really fun. And yeah, you know, and I understood this happens to comedy actors sometimes where they have like a moment. And you know that that window doesn't always last forever. And I've been very aware of that since the beginning. Like, I knew, like, okay, right now I'm the guy that people I'.

That can change at any moment. You Know, I don't know what you do to prepare for it or how you deal with it or anything, but the whole time, I knew. I was never comfortable. I was never like, all right, now I make.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was always like, oh, this. It's very, very fickle, you know?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. So where were you in the fall 2022, which is when you appeared on a live version of this podcast at Vulture Festival? You had some movies do less. Well, one very famously. Was it the movie the Eternals that did not perform as Marvel had expected? Where were you when we spoke?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I was probably about to go shoot a series called welcome to Chippendales.

[Jesse David Fox]

No, it was to promote Chip and Dale.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was to. Okay, so I just finished it because that was a pretty quick turnaround, so that's probably where I was. And I was about to go. So I just finished that. I was very proud of that because that was, like, a truly fully dramatic role, and I really loved doing it. I loved playing, like, the same guy, one story for six months. You know, I got to work with amazing actors, actually working with Annalee Ashford, Andrew Reynolds, Murray Bartlett, and Robin Day. Jesus, who are all, like, theater Broadway actors. That's what made me want to do Broadway, because I was like, these actors are so good. They're so much better than screen actors. I was like, oh, I. I want to do what they do to see what it is. So that's when I first was like, all right, if it comes my way, I have to do it. So. And then I went. I was. I went and did Ghostbusters right after that. So I was sort of in the middle of, like, a period where I was really. You just shooting a lot of stuff.

[Jesse David Fox]

In this time period where it felt like the. Your hiatus from standup was both on purpose and also just the nature of, like, the opportunities that are coming from you. And also, obviously, Covid, were you ever jealous of your standup friends? Would you ever see any of them be really good at standup and it bother you?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I really missed. What I hated was I didn't. I've always been fairly good about trying to not compare myself to other people, but I hated the feeling of not being good at something that I know I used to be good at. So that was. I hated that. And I would see friends do well, and I was just really happy for them. But I didn't really have. I wasn't really missing stand up. I was missing it in this vague way of, oh, I wish I was still good at that thing that now When I think about it, it terrifies me. And I remember what it was like when it was zero scary. Like, it was not scary at all. Like, I could go up on stage and be like, all right, I'm going to just see what happens. I'm not going to try and do material. I remember, you know, doing the shows. I remember a point in my life where I was like, when I was living in New York, I think I was like, I think I can go up in front of any room and do well and really believing that. So I missed that feeling. I didn't really specifically miss the feeling of performing on stage. I felt creatively pretty fulfilled because I was doing a lot of writing and I was doing a lot of performing, acting. So I wasn't really creatively frustrated. I just did. Yeah, I just didn't like not being good at it anymore.

[Jesse David Fox]

So I went into that interview specifically with the goal of trying to convince you to do stand up.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I can't remember.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think I might have said it while talking, but I. I told everyone beforehand, like, literally, what are you doing? A polter.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, wait, really?

[Jesse David Fox]

I was like, I'm going to try to convince Kumail.

To do standup again. And there's two moments that stood out to me, but I was curious, like, what was your. What is your memory of the experience?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think the thing that really. And it was you. And right before, right after that, it was Brett Goldstein. It was very close. Two people, like really giving me the hard sell. And with you, I remember we were on stage and we were talking and you brought up an old bit and you were like, can you. Do you remember doing it? And I was like, I think I can do it. And I sort of just did it. And it was so exciting to do it. It was an old bit, you know, but it was so exciting to do it. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that's a pretty good feeling. So that was the first time that it felt like anything specific.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, that was the thing that I wrote down was, I remember ask you do it. You're like, I don't know if I do it. And then you ask the audience, like, do you remember it? And truly, no one. This was like, this is how they were learning you were a stand up comedian. And then you were like kind of fumble through. And then it just logs in. And I go, how did that feel? And you're like, it felt fucking great.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, it was amazing. That's the thing I discovered in touring and stuff. A lot of people don't know Me as a standout. They think I'm some actor who's like. I mean, I talk about it in the special, but yeah, so that I remember that feeling being like, oh, that was very, very exciting. Then Brett Goldstein at Sam Richardson's birthday party, he was like, do stand up, man. You gotta do standup again. You gotta do stand up again. And really, I don't remember when it was, but around after that is when I first started going to Largo a little bit here and there, not really fully. And when I was shooting Ghostbusters in London, which was like February, March, April of 2023. Just a couple months after that, there was this show there that's really good called Always Be Comedy that like, you know, all these guys do, like at Gamble Lake Astor Niche, all these guys do. So I would drop in every now and then when they were performing and do like a 10 minute set just to sort of feel if I wanted to keep doing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I remember seeing pictures of you and being like, shit, that's me. That I did that. I started even before you told me that I had an influence, I started taking credit for it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean. You did, yeah, because truly, truly, that was one of the factors.

[Jesse David Fox]

Would you remember how that felt when you started going out? A little bit?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. So I think my first few sets were all at Largo because. Have you been to Largo, I assume. I love that room. I love flanning. You know, all my friends have shows there. It's just a very, very safe place. The first, I think my first setback was on Nick Kroll's show. And I actually didn't want to do a set on my own. So I was like, can I just do a two man thing with you? And I kind of in that, used it to sort of do a bit that I was working on, you know. And I remember the first few times I did it at Largo, it was incredible because people were really excited to see me on stage. They hadn't seen me on stage in a while. They were excited I wasn't listed. So the first few times I did it, the first couple of weeks were really, really exciting.

And then after that I had a couple weeks where I actually wasn't doing as well on stage. And I think I realized what it was that in the beginning I was really nervous and sort of off rhythm. So I was really present. And then as I got more comfortable on stage, my delivery started defaulting to because of muscle memory, the way I used to be on stage. Like 10 years ago when I was really doing it. And it felt disingenuous because I felt like I'm a different person, but on stage, I'm trying to pretend to be the person I was 10 years ago. And so those two weeks were, like, kind of not rough. I wasn't bombing or anything because the crowds are so good. But I really just didn't feel. I was like, I'm not quite feeling right. And I was like, okay, I have to figure out what this is. And so what changed for me was I was like, all right, I'm going to go out on stage. This is now a month into it, and I'm not going to have any obligation to do well. I'm just going to go and hang back and really lean back and see how it comes out and not worry about how I'm doing. As soon as I made that decision, suddenly it was sort of like doing O Mary. Suddenly it felt like, oh.

This is the path now. So that really helped. And the other thing is the performing standup came back quicker than writing stand up did. It took me a while to remember how to write stand up again, like, literally, where.

[Jesse David Fox]

How a observation or idea gets to the point where it's something to bring on stage.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. And how to structure a joke, because it's very different than writing a movie screen. But, like, you know, you mentioned the Big Sick. The Big Sick is really about the balance between drama and comedy. Right. Like, you can't really have a bunch of jokes in a row. That upsets the balance. And that's true for.

You know, unless it's like something like Naked Gun, either. Every comedy, you have, like, the periods where it's not funny. Like, you have to have that for the stakes of the story. Stand up's not like that. Stand up. You can have 10 punchlines in a row, in fact, that's the goal. And so I'd sort of gotten used to being like, all right, I have a joke, then I do a little bit, then I have a joke, then I do a little bit, then I have a joke. And I was like, oh, no, that's not how standup happens. Standup ideally, is you do a setup and then you have seven punchlines in a row. So readjusting to that took a little bit of doing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Because I can imagine a. I guess I'll say lesser comedian or a comedian not trying as hard, or a person who's just like. Would just be like, yeah, I'll talk for a little bit, and there'll be a funny parts in it. That is not the comedian who you were or where you came up with. And I. The special is that of what you. You're able to get to the point where you're saying, which is like, there's so much joke writing in it that I forgot it was almost possible. Like, kids aren't working as hard as you guys were. And they're just. It's like the have a chunk and then there's sort of these sections within it that are sort of sub jokes. And then each of that have different types of tags, not just sort of in it, or you're doing different types of things.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it's like, oh, yeah, I forgot this density was a thing that we were aspiring to. Because a lot of specials are just sort of like, yeah, it's like a funny time to hang out with this.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've seen a bunch of specials by people who I consider to be hilarious that I'm like, oh, come on, you should have worked on that. You know, get more punchlines in there. What I've always done is. And you know, I talked to Marc Maron, who, like, does not write at all. I'm the opposite. I write everything out and then I want to forget it and discover stuff, but I write everything out. And one of the systems I've always used that I still use writing standup is I write my joke, my whole story on Google Docs and I bold all the punchlines and then I can look and see like, oh, this. There's not a punchline here for a while. I have to find something funny in there. So there's something. I wouldn't say mathematical. Cause it is a feel. But I do look at just the picture of it and go, okay, I need something here. Especially for. That was a challenge, especially for the last story in my special because there's so much in there that I wanted to say that I was like, I need to have enough punchlines to keep it afloat.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. You had this unique experience of being very much a center part of the scene with the meltdown. Like you were seeing everybody and then you're away for, let's say, eight, nine years, and now you're back in the LA comedy scene.

I've noticed differences, but it's. You know, I'm in it. Was there things that you noticed that were different changes that you were surprised by?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, what everyone says in LA is outside of Largo, there isn't really an alt scene anymore. And that's a real bummer because when I was doing it, there really was, you know, I mean, Meltdown was. We realized this later, where you're like, oh, yeah. We were sort of the center of the alt scene in la. And it was really a great show. It's really exciting. So that's not. Doesn't really exist anymore. So when I started doing standup again, I'd ask my friends, like, okay, I know the clubs. Where else can I go? They're like, Largo. I'm like, where else? They're like, that's kind of it. There'll be small shows here and there. And they were good. Like, Jared and Cara have a show that's really fun.

[Jesse David Fox]

And Jared Logan and Cara Clink.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, they have a show that's really good. And, you know, Hot Tub with Kurt and Kristen was going. And now that's done as well. Kurt's moved here, actually. He writes for Fallon now.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, that's.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And so that's been a big change. And I was never someone who.

Did the clubs very much. I mean, I didn't do the Cellar until I moved away. And now I do it when I'm here. I haven't been able to do it this trip, but I do it when I'm here. I never really did the clubs very much. I never did the store. I did the Improv every now and then. But I was like, okay. It was in the strike last year that I decided, I wanna do a special. I decided, like, okay, I have a year. And in this year, I wanna try and figure. I wanna have a special done. And so to do that, I have to get a lot of reps in. And it was a negotiation with Emily. Cause she was like, you know, she was here with me when we lived here. And she's been to every awful open mic. She's like, is this gonna be like that again? So we negotiated. I would do two nights a week of shows, but then I would stack shows. I would go to the Improv, then I'd go to the Store and sometimes the Laugh Factory. So I would do four or five sets a week, do that. The thing with Largo is, you know, Largo is amazing. It's my favorite place to do stand up there. Largo's a hang. You go there. You go there at 8. Show starts at like 8:35. You're hanging out with your friends. You don't know when you're up. Then you go up, hang out and watch your friends. That's your whole night. The Improv or Comedy Store, you can get there. They're like, you're up at 9, 10, you get there at 9:05, you're up at 9:15, you're off stage, you can go, you know, you can really, like, compress it. So I went to a lot of the clubs and I did. I don't wanna. I was a little surprised at how homogenous I found a lot of that comedy to be, because for me, you know, I did Tim Heidegger's podcast and I talked about this. But so much of when I was coming up in Chicago and then in New York, all that mattered was originality and point of view. You just had to be yourself and different from everything else. And then I was watching all these comedians, I was like, this is all the same material. You're all talking about the exact same thing and you have the exact same opinions on them. So I found that to be sort of jarring. Maybe it's always been like that. I don't know. And so I was like, oh, man, the state of comedy and all this stuff. But then when I do, when I go to, like, you know, I'll sometimes drop into, like, little shows in other towns that I'm doing. And when I see those kids doing stand up, I'm like, oh, we're okay. These guys are great.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I heard you say that and I was very curious because I wonder if it's partly about who is the biggest comedian in the world. And of course, it's like, when you were last here, Louis CK Was the biggest comedian in the world, regardless of everything else. But like, that created a. The North Star was an idea of truthfulness or vulnerability and inward and minimum inward look.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

And Dave Chappelle is the biggest comedian in the world and it is extremely outward looking. And I think that is a. I think that as a model then. So then the next biggest comedians are like, our job is to be outward looking, like Dave Chappelle, outward facing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then because you're all observing the same thing, especially with the nature of how the Internet bubbles up the same stories, you're now just sort of talking about the same five things.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Exactly. And I think that's exactly the difference, you know, with Louis and what we valued was sort of like looking inward and revealing ourselves to the crowd. And now it's all like pointed outwards. And that's really the majority of the very successful comedy. I mean, I think it's on its way down a little bit. I was talking to some agents about this, but there are more comedians that can sell out arenas than ever in history. Right. And now, like, I'd heard That, like, music sales had started to go down a little bit and now it's affecting that comedy sales are starting to go down a little bit, which has to happen because I was like, there can't be that many. That many comedians who are that successful who are all exactly the same.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It just cannot last.

[Jesse David Fox]

There can be enough people to buy tickets to see the same show over and over again.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, my God, I see these clips and I sound so old when I say this, but it really has been because I love comedy, obviously. I love comedy and I love, you know. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. That's really exciting. Oh, that's a funny way to say that. And to not even value that anymore, not just being not good at it, but to not value it. I'm like, well, then what's the point of doing it? It feels like it does. Genuinely feel like people are just doing it to be successful rather than to be the comedy of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, there it is. The downside of there is a model of success now for standup. Where through the street, Certain streaming services being like, yeah, we'll keep on just putting out these specials, dude. So then you're like, cool. My job is to sort of just keep the train running.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I cannot imagine, like, when I look at someone like Anthony J. Right. So when I was doing standup again, I was like, dude, I want to do an hour. What's your system? He has a three year cycle for each special. And it's amazing, for the first year he just goes in la, up in la, tries all the jokes. Then he spends a year in the clubs honing that hour. Then he tours for a year, records it. Then he tours out of the country. So he's on a three year cycle and he's one of the sharpest comedians working today. And then all these other guys are putting out a special every year, every few months. That's remarkable.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think you said this, but one of the big differences Persona wise is.

10 years ago you were trying to be confident on stage, and now you're more comfortable on stage. Can you explain the difference between that and how you reach that?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, some of it happens because of how I'm perceived as totally changed. And Emily was saying this to me. She's like, when you're doing standup again, you look different on stage than you used to. And so you have to, like, be aware of that. So when I was like, you know, as a scrawny little guy, I had to, like, project confidence. And now I Kind of have to do the opposite. I kind of have to, like, hang back. I don't realize I'm. I truly feel like exactly the same person I've been always. But the way people perceive me really has changed quite a bit. And so I have to be careful. You know, there are certain things that I can't really do anymore that I used to be able to do on stage.

Like, it's weird. Like, you know.

Like, if I'm being self deprecating, I have to be aware of the ways in which I'm being self deprecating.

And I think, you know, I do feel just more confident as a person anyway. I'm 10 years older, I'm 47 years old now, and I feel more comfortable with who I am. So I don't feel like I need to, like, be anything but completely myself on stage. I mean, that was the goal for me for a long time. Even when I was doing stand up back then, I was like, I want to be exactly myself on stage.

Now. Up until the big sick, that was a more confident version of me on stage. And now I try and really have it be like, just me. Not even any exaggerated version of me. I really try.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, you start up top and you address certain things and one of it is like, don't be weird about the muscles. And I, I, I think it's interesting because I do think most people be like, oh, he has muscles now. He must be really aware of how people look at him. But it's like all comedians are putting themselves in front of people. Like, I think about, like, in my brain, it's iconic that you wore like a really loose, schlubby sweatshirt at your Beta Male special.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

Which to me also felt like a person being aware of being looked at. There's just sort of the converse. But it's still the same essential thing of, like, it's one thing to have muscles on a big screen, it's another thing to like, literally be in the same room as your muscles, I imagine. Did you feel that from the audience?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I just felt like as I was writing material, I was like, oh, this has to be different because people see me so differently. So there's a lot of stuff that's just not going to work anymore, which is good anyway. Like, I'm not trying to recreate what I was.

And then I had to find this weird thing where I was like, this is something I wanna talk about on stage. So I kind of have to wear something that does show it. Like, ideally I would've Liked to have worn a jacket or something on top. But I was like, I have to show this because this is a significant portion of the set, and I really wanna talk about this stuff. So I had to find this balance of, like, all right. I have to. I have to show off a little bit so that I can, like, undercut it and talk about it and all this stuff. So, you know, so much of standup is when you're on stage, how you're being perceived and how you're playing with that perception is such a big part of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

So the special has about eight sections, I think, if I counted correctly. And I'd be happy to talk about every part of it. But we only have so much time, so I'm gonna focus on just sort of three chunks. So the first big piece of the special is about your cat, bagel, turning 16 and getting sick. I know she passed away recently, so I first wanna say I'm sorry for your. Now was it feel like to now have a. It's like it comes now like a memorial to her.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I just picked out. I'm going to put a thing at the end of the special.

Loving Memory. So. And I just picked that up yesterday. I mean, this just happened two weeks ago.

Yes, it does. And I'm. I'm very happy I did that, because now I can't. I won't ever do that material again. Of course.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, because you probably. It would have been too hard to do now.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I. It just doesn't feel right to do it. Like, who wants to be like, listen, my cat's dead. But when she was alive and really sick, this is what it was like, you know, this is the story of.

[Jesse David Fox]

What killed my cat. Exactly.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Can't do that. And it just makes me. It's just too sad. And that when that material comes in, I structured the set where I was like, these are the things I want to do. And when I was writing Stand Up Again, I was like, I wanna talk about my cat being sick. This is important to me. This is a big part of my life. I wanna be able to figure out how to talk about it on stage and have it be funny. And it comes at a very particular point in the set because I start off doing jokes that are shorter, jokeier jokes. And when I get to the Bagel part is when I consider the set to really start, because I'm like, all right, now. All that was a platform so I can talk about this.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And then by the end of that, then everything else is just stuff that I'm like, all right, now, this is. This is the stuff.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. The first parts are just sort of like, this is me being a comedian.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's right. And I did that on purpose. You know, I wanted to. In fact, there was. I had, like, a wish list before I was going into the recording. I was like, I would love to have another bit in the beginning that's just like a jokey joke. So, you know, my first real joke, I talk a little bit about muscles and stuff, but the first real joke is about getting high. And that's just a jokey joke, you know? So, yeah, I wanted to, like. Like, warm people up, be like, ah, yeah, this is comedy. And then get into, like, my cat's heart is too big. You know, you.

[Jesse David Fox]

You start that section by asking permission to talk about a more sensitive thing, which I'm not sure I've seen a comedian do, especially not in a special. What was the thinking behind that?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I just wanted to get them to get ready for something that's a little bit different. And actually, Martin Starr, who. He was like, I would sort of do that. And he came and saw my set a couple times. I was doing it in Austin, and him and his wife live in Austin now, and he was like, when you ask them that, really ask them that. So that if they say no, you don't do it. Like, really? You're not just saying it? Really ask them that. So I was like, that's really. So, Yeah, I really, really asked them that. And it also. I think it sets people up for, like, all right, this is gonna be a little bit different. Put some in a different mindset. And part of the thing of doing comedy is you want the audience to feel safe. Like, part of the job of a comedian, I think, is to be like, I am in control here. Don't worry. We may go to some weird places, but I always know what it is. So that's my way of also being like, you're gonna be safe. It's not gonna be, you know, it's gonna be about some stuff that's a little sad, a little dark, but you're safe. It's all part of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I also think it sort of does a nice thing of if you don't say that, that you can do the joke. And there'd be people who would lead the show being like, yeah, that's not about. That cat was so fun. Like, they wouldn't even know it was even that personal. But something by saying it's personal.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Both lands more gravitas to the Parts where you actually are sweet and sad when the cat is sick and then then does the opposite, which is then sort of allows them to be like, oh, there are still jokes in this thing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, part of that, the challenge of writing that whole chunk was you're really fighting against yourself. Because if I really just want to talk about it, it's not funny. I think it was Doug Steinhope or somebody, I forget who it was. Maybe Bill Hicks who said in the beginning you like think of funny stuff and say it and later you think of what you want to say and then make it funny. And that's really what I wanted to do with all that bagel stuff. I was like, I want to talk about this. And what was interesting that I did not anticipate was, and I should have is how many people have had that experience. And I really feel that, like, I feel the audience really connecting with that stuff because, you know, so many people have pets, have lost pets, all this kind of stuff. So it really sort of changes the temperature in the room when I finally get to that section.

[Jesse David Fox]

There's so many funny parts of this section that I could talk endlessly about. But I want to ask you about the Taebo joke. Can you explain the basic thing? Because I want to just. I don't want to do your material at you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean, now I haven't done it in a couple months, but it's basically that like they. One of the ways to give her her pill is you have to open her mouth and I can't get her mouth open. I don't how she's been like exercising her jaw muscles. I don't know if she's been doing Taebo or a more updated workout reference.

[Jesse David Fox]

That that or more updated workout reference. That's the type of joke you're not seeing anymore that I like, I miss. The sort of like awareness of stand up convention stuff is sort of like. There's few moments where I'm like, these guys. This is what, this is what comedy used to be.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I love hearing that. Thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

We're going to get to one of the other ones later. But it really is like, like is so. It was like a warm hug that, that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

As a person who cares about COMED and remembers your voice, it was like. It really is like you are able to capture your comedic voice regardless of the sort of other perspective you're able to bring to it. I believe you. I've heard you mention this joke in interviews while you were still working on it. And it Seemed like it was once much longer, or there was, like, more to it, or even if not there, when you have talked about this illness in some interviews, you will say, like, it made you think about your own mortality. And that's. You don't say that in this joke. You don't say, and that's when I realize I'm gonna die. You don't have that. But, like, do you feel like that is in the joke, even if it's not said in the joke?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean, I will say, you know, when Bagel first got sick two and a half years ago is genuinely the first time I actually emotionally felt my own mortality. Obviously, I knew I was gonna die someday, but, you know, I turned 45 and bagel got sick exactly at the same time. And there was. That was right before I'd really started going hard on the special. It really was kind of an existential crisis. Cause I was like, you know, people have been like, when you turn 40, 40 was fine. Cause I was like, double that. 80s. Most people get to 80s. When I got to 45, I was like, that double. That's 90. Most people don't get to 90. More than likely, I'm more than halfway through this whole thing. And then Bagel got sick, and I was just like, oh, my God. So it just like, really, really hit me. I think it's in there. The reason I didn't want to talk about it specifically is because it's such a big thing that it sort of the hour becomes about something else. And I wanted it to be about, like, sort of specific. Not specific things, but I didn't want that to hijack everything. That is something, you know, when I. That is something I do want to talk about. You know, I know Bill Burr talks about it in his new special. A little bit. I want to talk about that at some point. But I felt like it wasn't right for this special.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was curious because, you know, as you said before, the big sick, you're. As a standup, you wanted to be some version of open on stage. You want to be who you are on stage. You wanted to be. I think you said, like, my goal was to be naked, whatever that meant. And, like, beyond anything else, then the big sick comes out, and you were, like, regular famous. And. And not only that, it's. It's a big sick is your life. And so you have both the same. You have the thing that happens when people are famous, where people feel ownership over your life. And because it is, you gave them a part of your story. You have to. I imagine, that time period, create. Okay, this is the sort of divide. And now you're returning to a form that is not about that divide. How did you figure out what the line was for you?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's a really good question. I've thought about it a lot because, you know, it is true. Up until the Big sick, I mean, I was doing Silicon Valley. I was acting and stuff. But really, the job of a comedian is to be exactly the same, often on stage. In some ways, your life is your art, too. You're talking about how you really. What you really believe in all this kind of stuff. And then as I became, like, normal famous, as you're saying. I don't know how you put it, I realized there has to be a divide between personal and public. And then going back to standup, I was like, I can combine those, but I want to do it on my terms. And that's why specifically, I talk about certain things that I had not talked about that other people had talked about me.

In a way that was an effort at synthesizing parts from my personal life into my public image, to make my public image closer to me. Obviously, there are still certain things that, you know that are mine. But I was like, okay, these are the things. Cause I really had a really intense reaction to sort of being more recognizable. And I kind of retreated. Especially then when Covid hit, I just completely was like. I got scared of crowds, you know, like. Like, just on the way here, a guy just, like, took a picture of me, and I got angry. I was like, just ask me. If you ask me, I'll do it. You sort of. It's so hard to complain about this. It genuinely.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, I. It is hard. You know, it is interesting. I don't. We. Will you feel comfortable complaining? It's not complaining. It's just sort of a weird thing that happens to some people.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So I think you should. You don't worry about the complaining thing. Okay, People. And many of these people have seen your special, and I feel like you answered those.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, that part of it. Yeah. So.

What was I saying? Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Although you retreated for a while.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I retreated for a while. And then what? I wanted you to stand up again. I was like, all right. There's a lot of misconceptions about me and perceptions about me. People see me as something that I'm not. A lot of people saw me getting in shape as a betrayal. Cause my whole thing was like, I was a nerd. I had a podcast about video games. I had a podcast about X Files. And suddenly now I'm muscular. So now I've become a jock or whatever it is, and I really haven't. I'm exactly the same person. You can ask my friends. I really am exact, exactly the same person. Emily and I still play video games all day. And so I was like, okay. A little bit of it was, you guys have been saying all this stuff. Now I want to say stuff about it and own a little bit of that conversation and say my perspective on it. And then people are going to have reactions to that too. That's the other thing Emily was like, just so you know, when this comes out, it's going to be like another time when people start talking about this stuff. I'm like, yeah, but at least I'll have said what I want to say about it. So it was really. When I retreated suddenly there was this, like, image of who I had become and I had changed. And it had sort of, to me felt like it had become fat. Like, Alkamel is now a different person. He's changed. He's not one of us anymore. And so this was my way of being like, this is who I really am. And, you know.

Take my. Some of my personal. And put it in.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, the thing is, like, there's a grand tradition of that in stand up, right. Like, I think if in so much as, like, it is not like Richard Pryor. Some of the most famous jokes in the history of stand up is Richard Pryor talking about the public perception of him.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right.

[Jesse David Fox]

And figuring out a way to make it more personal. And because there's this sort of public perception, more comes out of it. And I did feel like when we were saying you were gonna talk about the mortality, that would have distracted from this other point of like, you're making about who you are and reconciling with an audience, which does seem like the sort of main thrust of the special. I was curious. Curious about the Emily part of it because she's the other part of the big sick. You wrote it together, you collaborate. You were collaborating together in your stand up before that. How did she. What were the conversations like with her? What was she comfortable with? Were there things that you had to figure out her because she. She didn't decide I'm returning to stand up bite, you know, like, it's a little bit different. Not to mention.

When you were stand up purely, I imagine, sort of the work life balance was worse.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. Yeah, much worse.

[Jesse David Fox]

How did you reconcile all that? Or is it diffic? Was it interesting? Was her perspective on it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was difficult because, you know, I'm losing my nighttime with my wife.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

My favorite thing to do is just spend time with her. It really is. And so that's what it was like, the two days a week negotiation. And then with touring, it was. I would do two weekends on, one weekend off. And it was on a weekend I would do. You know, if I'm doing, like, theaters, I do Thursday, Friday, Saturday, sometimes Sunday. One of those would only be one show so that Emily and I could get dinner afterwards. So that was, like, very. And she traveled with me as much as she could. So there were, like, very practical things we did to make sure we weren't spending too much time apart, that this wasn't taking me away from the thing that is most, most important thing to me in my life, which is my relationship with Emily.

And then with the stuff, the personal stuff. Emily's one of the people who actually encouraged me to talk about it. When I started doing standup again, you know, before. First bit. So I wrote a bunch of stuff, and I was doing it for a couple months at Largo, and it wasn't until I had. Did the. The swimming pool bit that's in there, which is very much a bit.

[Jesse David Fox]

Just so you haven't seen it. The story about you and Emily seeing people on a date at your swimming pool.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, at our swimming pool. And again, that also is a little bit acknowledging how my. Our lives are different. You know, not. Not showing off or anything, but just. Just that. That's another. Because the other thing that happens is when you become, like, successful, people are like, oh, now you're, like, divorced from this thing. You're pretending to be something you're not. And I'm like, I'm not really pretending to be something I'm not. Like, I do have more privilege than I used to have. When I wrote that bit and I did that, that was the first bit that I was like, oh, okay. This, I think, is as good as some of the older stuff I did. And that gave. That one bit gave me a lot of confidence because I was like.

Cause a part of it is, you know, you're doing. Going up at Largo. I'm writing stuff. It's all doing pretty well. But you're sort of like, what if I don't have that anymore? What if I cannot write the way I used to be able to write? And so when I did the swimming pool bit, I was like. Suddenly I was like, okay, all right. That bit, I think, can stand next to some of My older stuff. And then I was like, okay, so I am capable of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

The knife part.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The knife part part.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is. I mean, that part's.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is the. It's hard to describe it without your shirt. It just really is so good. It's the thing of very short setup, even for that, which is just Emily being like, well, we have a knife. And then it's just like, punchline. Punchline. Punchline.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. I mean, you know, and that. That structure of joke was something that I decided when I moved to New York in 2007. I was like, all right. I was. I want to be able to write jokes that are set up and then a bunch of punch lines in a row. And I. And that was a specific thing I wanted to do. And I did that with, you know, I had a joke. The cheese. The thing, which is the joke you had me do on stage. The cyclone. All of that came out of that, like, sort of strategy of being a. Of wanting to have a bunch of punchlines in a row. And so that sort of came from the same thing. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was thinking about the sort of what you do or do not give your audience, and also that specifically the time period you were away from standup is when, like, your generation of comedians all did specials and where they talked about why they are or not having kids.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I was curious if that is something you thought about talking about. Is it something that you felt like was specifically for you? You do not need to tell me why or why not you made those decisions. But I was just curious if that's something. Something that you are aware of, because it is a thing that I think your age group of comedians all kind of covered while you were away.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's interesting. It was never. It's never been, like such a top of mind thing for me. You know, when I was a kid, I was like, someday I'll have kids. But me. Us deciding to not have kids wasn't really a decision. It just sort of was like, do we want to? And we still talk about it. You know, it wasn't really a big thing. I. I just didn't ever feel like there was anything missing in my life. And I know, you know, having a kid change, you know, you learn whatever it is. The thing is, I don't know what that is, so I don't know what I'm missing, so I'm totally fine with that. You know, Seth Rogen has talked about it a bunch publicly, and I think he talks about it, you know, very intelligently. I Don't have as much to say about it. Cause it's just not something that's ever really been, like, a decision that's been, like, such a big one, honestly.

[Jesse David Fox]

Were there conversations about things with Emily, about things that were too personal?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did she. Did she help you or she pushing? Sometimes you could be more personal. Like, was it just. You don't even have to say what it was. But do you feel like there were. Was she always on the side of. Don't talk about that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No. Emily's pretty good about. You can. You need to talk about this thing. But also, like, hey, let's keep this to ourselves. This is for us. And even in the big sick, you know, there were certain things that she's like, that's just ours. And even now we're writing. We were talking about this yesterday where she was like, I don't want to put this in there. So she's very good about keeping those things, but she did really want me to be, you know, just actually. Actually vulnerable on stage and actually be. Be truthful about how I was feeling and stuff. So she did. She did, you know, encourage me to really go into and talk about that stuff. You know, where that the last 15.

[Jesse David Fox]

Minutes were, which we're about to get into.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Okay, well, let's get into.

[Jesse David Fox]

No, it's a perfect. Oh, I. So the last section of the special is a long piece about the reaction to you saying that the reaction to the Eternals and your body transformation made you go into therapy. And before we get into it, I want to say one thing, which does not come up often in podcasts, because I don't think most people watch the Eternals, but I will say this, which is, you're really good in the Eternals.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you, Adam. That's very nice of you. You know what's really funny? Because now this is something that's, like, become part of, like, you know, I've talked about it here and there. Like, just two days ago, I'm walking down, and someone goes, I actually like the Eternals. I'm like, you don't have to say the word. Actually, just say you were.

[Jesse David Fox]

There are issues I have with that movie, tonally and structurally, but the movie, you're in your arc and your sort of tone. That's a good superhero.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for saying it.

[Jesse David Fox]

So I was like. Because no one seen the movie. Can you talk about a day where you're like, this is great. Like, the dancing scene.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The dancing scene was very, very challenging for me. I actually. I actually enjoyed that entire process so much because I loved everybody I was working with. I love Chloe. She's made another movie now, Hamnet, that's getting amazing reviews. And.

So I had a great time doing that movie. I was in London for six months. Bagel was with me. Emily was with me. Yeah, I could shoot lasers from my fingers. I mean, it's amazing. You know, you're like, big budget movie. The food's amazing. Everybody. The resources at your disposal are so huge. I mean, you know, one of the first things I ever filmed was Portlandia, and you have, like three granola bars and, like, chairs that we all sit in. That's all we had. And then to be on that where you have, like, this massive trailer and all this stuff, and it was.

[Jesse David Fox]

It was.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I had a great time.

[Jesse David Fox]

I don't know many interviewers don't know this, but I do know this. What was it like returning to do what if. Was it healing to get to play that character?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I really loved it. Cause I really love playing that character. I really love, love playing Kingo. And I don't think I'll ever get to do it again. When they asked me to do that, A friend of mine wrote that episode. He also wrote that episode of Twilight Zone that I did and Alex. And so I was like, yeah, I loved going back to Playman. It sort of felt like a nice way to say goodbye, you know, with Katherine Hahn, who's incredible. Absolutely love her. Yeah, it really was like a way to, like. It felt like closure.

[Jesse David Fox]

All right, well, I don't know. Multiverse is here. You can be the only eternal as the one person.

Were you scared to talk about that stuff? Was there pressure from industry people not to. Not really.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I haven't really felt anything because I haven't really said anything about that movie that I don't really believe and that they wouldn't agree with. You know, like when I first. When it sort of first that. In that interview, when it became like a thing. When I did the interview with Michael Rosenbaum and I talked about the therapy, I did call the producer of the movie, and I was like, hey, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make this a thing. He's like, it's totally fine. He did not. And whenever it's been a thing that's come out in the news, I always reach out to people over there. Hey. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't mean this to be a thing. And they're like, no, it's totally Fine. I've gotten no pushback on it because I haven't said anything about the movie that I think they'd be upset at. I really like the movie. You know, I really like. I really love Chloe. I think she's a phenomenal filmmaker. I think it's unlike anything else in the mcu.

No. So I haven't. I haven't really gotten any pushback, but at the same time, I don't want to be defined by this thing that's considered a failure, you know, but it's something that keeps coming up, and I know it's going to come up again when this special comes out, but I wanted to be able to, like, talk about it as, like, here's what I want to say about this whole thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I think one of the other things that bother. That I think motivated you to become to return to stand up from our interview is I said probably as a slip when you were a comedian or when you were a standup, and you did not like that. You still don't even like.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I do not remember that.

[Jesse David Fox]

The thing that I think I think in your bone makes you a comedian is I think a lot of actors would just never address that they're even in the movie ever again.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And you. The fact that you would talk about it, like, it's almost like you're like, I'm going to be the face of this movie's failure. Even though you're like, sixth or seventh on the culture, but you are the first eternal in the. Anyway. But, um, I think that is a comedian's instinct. Be, like, not run away from this. Being like, oh, there's so much here actually to work on.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. And it was something that really was, you know, it really genuinely shook me. And it was a part of, you know, I had to deal with all of it for a while. It took me a long time to sort of deal with it. But I was like, when I'm. If I'm going back to standup, for me, it was like, you know, when I started up stand up again, I had the luxury of. Of being able to decide what I wanted my standup to be, because I've gone back and I've seen people who, the entire eight, nine years I was away had been doing standup. Some of them got better, but some of them are exactly the same. And they were great then. Then they're still great because if you don't take a break, you don't have to sit back and reevaluate and go, why am I doing this, you're just writing the next pick. Writing the next pick. Not that everybody does that, but that. That's like the path of least resistance, right? So I see people. I'm like, you're still great. You're still the same comedian. When I go back, I'm like, okay.

I'm doing this thing again. I'm taking time away from my wife, away from my home. There has to be some purpose for this. Like, why do I want to do this again? And the reason to do it has to be bigger than just I want to be on stage and get laughs. And so when I sort of was like, okay, why am I doing this again? And really it was because I wanted to talk about all that stuff once I saw. Sort of figured out, you know. Cause it was a collection of bits and I was doing sets, and when I sort of wrote that final thing, and it all sort of. I wrote it all at once. And the first time I did it was. And then I honed it, but it wasn't really that different. Like, the first time I did it, it felt very similar to that because there's a. I put everything in there that I wanted to talk about, you know, about, like, therapy and success and failure and people's perception of me and how. How I feel about people's perception. All that stuff. It's like. It's like so much to put in.

But really, it was like, in one sitting, all that stuff happened. And then I had to go in and write jokes. But the structure of it kind of came pretty quickly. And when that happened, I was like, oh, this is the reason for why I'm doing standup again. And now I know what the hour is.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is interesting because I think for people in certain, maybe cities or whatever, you'd be like, oh, therapy is normalized now. Everyone's fine with therapy. Everyone's doing it every and then. But I imagine the reaction that you got exposed you to, like, a.

Perspective on therapy that is just sort of not like a. Still a resistance that some people have.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, it's scary. Therapy. Scary. I mean, you know, and I know most people don't have access to it, and that's. That's a whole other thing. And that's really tricky. But even if it's not therapy, I. I think having vulnerability or being able to reckon with what's inside you is very important. And I think it's possible to do that without therapy. So it's really about that, you know, it's not really about therapy as the end goal. The End goal is to be able to feel your own feelings and know what's going on inside you. I think that that is extremely valuable and everybody would benefit from it. And I wanted to talk about that stuff because for a long time I was also, you know, not in touch with my feelings. I would get angry all the time. I talk about all this in the special.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And it's. And sort of realizing how much of myself I had repressed was such a big thing for me. And it's kind of what I thought about for years, where I was like, oh, my God, I had all this stuff inside me that I really tried to ignore. And what a shame. And it was I made life difficult for the people I love and the people around me, you know, because I wasn't, like, dealing with myself. I was like, I think this is a valuable thing to say.

[Jesse David Fox]

And.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And I can say it in a very personal way because I've had a very specific personal experience of it. And I was like, okay, so that's a reason to leave my wife twice a week. How did you.

[Jesse David Fox]

The thing that I think is so impressive about a lot of the special is you have short little examples that perfectly capture the thing that you're trying to say. Right. I think it's like any of those stories could be big, long stories and then build to whatever. And was it when you were specifically. I'm thinking about. You needed a moment to capture repression from a. Imagine, as you said, like a life of repression.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

How was working on that part? How did you land on the things that you wanted to bring up? Were there examples that felt too personal? Were the examples that felt too harsh to bring up? I mean, the example you. You bring up, which is about your dad getting into a car accident, I think is really interesting. You're like, I'm just curious how you massage that part for yourself personally. How did you land on it?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I asked my dad if I could talk about it, first of all. And I think that some of that came from actually Emily being like, you're talking about these concepts that are a little bit vague, and you need to have specific examples so that people understand exactly what you're saying. So actually, that part that you've pinpointed, that very little chunk where I'm trying to explain what's going on about how I was feeling things. I didn't know what I was feeling, and I was that then turning that into anger and pointing it at the wrong thing, that actually took a lot of doing because.

People just weren't quite following it. And I realized I had to like, repeat certain things, step certain things out, add that story in there, you know, I think it's become safer. If I could say, I don't know how you're feeling, but this is what it was like for me. And I think people will be able to understand, like, oh, yeah, I've had that. That's exactly what I've been through, you know, so that part actually took quite a bit of work because. And then the danger again becomes like, you don't want to go too long without having a punchline, you know, so that was really the most challenging part of that whole thing is how do I convey all this stuff and not have it seem, like, self indulgent and have it be funny?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It is a dance. I think the sort of line that saves and makes the entire thing work is someone's like, essentially you're talking about, like, as if you don't have any problems because you were in a boo hoo, you're in this movie. And then essentially, like, I have problems. Problems too. It's like, I. Whatever, my cat was sick.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And then you say, sometimes my abs gets.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I think that switching, like, I do think helps being like, yeah, you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Really need to have those to keep it afloat, you know.

That line actually came from.

I was doing something there and someone who was opening for me. I'm. I cannot remember her name. I. I'll find out. Shit. Maybe don't put this in because I can't remember her name, but she was like, how about this line?

[Jesse David Fox]

And I was like, oh, she came with the.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I was like, that is exactly the perfect thing that. That it needs. And that was the first time I ever did that bit. The first time I ever did that bit, I was in. I was doing a movie in Providence, Rhode island, and there's a club there called the Comedy Connection, which is like 200 people, tiny club. And I'd sort of set up this thing where the Netflix festival was happening in like May 2024, I think. And I. A few months before that, I was like, I'm gonna book an hour there. I don't have it yet, but that'll give me the impetus to get it done. And then I ended up shooting this movie in Providence, so I had to keep doing standup. And I did it first at the Comedy Connection and the host and she was really funny. Honey, I can't feel so bad. But the first time I did it, she was like, do you wanna. How about this line? And I was like, oh, my God. That's exactly what that part means.

[Jesse David Fox]

In the special, you describe anxiety as. It's an interesting idea you have, which is essentially like, we have the brains of, like, hunter and gatherer. So, like, when we experience anxiety, we think where, like, a lion's about to attack us. But that is also sort of specifically the result of people whose, like, body chemistry develops in, like, more dangerous parts of the world. And I was curious if you feel like there's something related to your processing of anxiety and growing up in Karachi, which you've described in previous special as. I can't remember how you put it, but as. As dangerous or even perceived as dangerous.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, you know, growing up, I. The difference here is people assume safety unless it's specifically not present. In. You assume danger unless it's specifically not present. I mean, we just knew, you know, I don't want to paint it as something it's not. I had a wonderful childhood. I was very safe. I had a great, you know, like, I really genuinely love Karachi. But there was violence and we were very aware of the violence and we saw the violence and we saw people with guns walking around all the time. A lot of guns. And so I think that might be part of it, is that the part of you is always a little vigilant. Like, you know, it happens a lot where people go visit, like, another country and they end up going to the wrong part because you're from here and you assume everything is safe there. We don't have that, you know, so maybe, maybe. But it was something that you always had to be vigilant of. You know, there were times where we wouldn't go to school because stuff was happening in the city. And again, I don't want to paint Pakistan as something it's not, but it was. I do remember since I was a little kid being aware of violence around me and being. Having to be very careful of it. Like, that threat was very, very real. And it was present all the time. And it was. You know.

I was very scared of something happening to my dad. Like, you know, there were, like. There was a moment where they were, like, killing doctors, specifically, and my dad's friend, who has a clinic close to him got killed. So it's like that day could have been my dad. So it was something I was very aware of.

[Jesse David Fox]

The part of the special or part of the section that I'm like, almost. It was almost like cheering in my house was. When you bring up Covid.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Because it is a thing That I talk about all the time, which is. It is wild that. Because I think many comedians were kind of doing comedy, some version around it, so they don't have distance from it, because it's like, that's just sort of. I told a lot of my CO material while doing it, and you come back as well. Like, why is.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, why is approaching that said ultra.

[Jesse David Fox]

That section has, like, some of the funniest jokes in the entire special.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you talk about that? Doing that?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. I specifically wanted to talk about co. And that's one thing Emily was like, don't talk about that. Nobody wants to hear that. I was like, yeah, I think I do want to talk about it, because I do think it. I mean, this is not a controversial statement. I genuinely think it broke the world. And it. We. The world has not recovered from it. I really think it, like, exposed certain things. I think we were already on this. It really hastened it. And I wanted to talk about it because to me, Covid was, like, a very big thing because Emily.

Is immunocompromised. So for us, it was like a very real, very scary thing. And when I would see other comedians, like, flaunting it and having parties and being like, this is bullshit. Enraging to me. It's still enraging to me. Somehow people are still denying that it was a real thing, but so many people died. So I really wanted to talk about that. And I was like, how do I talk about it in a way that isn't. Because I do feel. We all feel it, even if we don't talk about it. I think, you know, Covid never went away. It's all, like, inside us. I don't mean the actual disease. The actual disease is obviously there, but, like, what we all went through is still part of it. Like, I think, you know, the vehicular accidents went up. Like, I think that, like, unprocessed stuff is all underneath everything all the time. So that was something I genuinely wanted to talk about. And I was like, okay, how do I. How do I talk about this? And when I started talk during the last 15 minutes, I was like, oh, this is a good place for me to put this in. Because it genuinely was like, you know, when I was doing the special, I was like, this might be the last special I do. And so if it is, I want to talk about all the stuff that I really want to talk about.

[Jesse David Fox]

There's a line. So you're describing what Covid was like. You have a very funny section about washing bananas that's great.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I was bananas.

[Jesse David Fox]

Then you talk about to capture how extreme it was. This section is, I believe, only jokes. Like, I don't think you go, like, all things you said are not in it, but you feel it, and you explain you went and got a cheesecake, and then you microwaved it for two minutes, and then you're eating the Devil's Night cereal. I told that to a colleague, and you go, that's that Chicago guy that is so distinctly unique. You, Pete Holmes, Kyle Kanan, like that. All of you. It's not that it's not distinctly you, but it's so true to whatever was the level of writing that you demand of each other.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I love that line a lot. And it's not the line that gets the kids laugh, but I love it. It's all very true. I remember very specifically in Covid, Emily and I, we would get food once a week. Friday night we would cook. Friday night, we would get once. And we went to this place that. That had these gorgeous pastries, this French place that had, like, these intricate desserts. And I remember putting them in the microwave and reducing them to sludge. The Devil's Night cereal. Yeah, that's like. I mean, you know, I think it does come from that. I think that's very true. Like, Kyle and Pete and, you know, I think so much of what I think standup comedy should be or how I want to do standup really comes from my first few years in Chicago. Like, it was such an emphasis on individuality and having something that's, like, completely different. Like, I think I've talked about this. I probably said this to you. I remember we had a show called the Lion's Den, which was, like, Monday nights, 70 people signed up. It was an open mic, and it was. Everybody would show up there. That was the center of, like, the north side Chicago scene. And it was amazing. And there was a crowd, and one night, there was a really great crowd, and it's five minutes. So I went up and I did stuff that I'd done before. Tequila. And I crushed. And I came off stage, and Kyle was like, kyle. And it was like, I heard you do that stuff before. I was like, God damn it. But that was the ethos, you know, that was the ethic of it. It was like you had to really always be writing new stuff and pushing yourself.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it is. Everyone else would just stop, even at the example of it. And I think in many ways, the audience is partly just laughing at the image of you eating microwaved.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

But you need that line to just be like, we're here to. This is a sentence that only my frame was thought of. And you need that like, it's truthful without being being like, it's not about like we think of truthful as only being like one type of vulnerable, but it is the like, how can I express only a thing? My brain would have came up.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

This is exactly. I'm gonna sound so old here. When I was in college, I was a philosophy major. I was a computer science major. Now the computer science major, we also had to write papers. And my Sam Rubelski, who's still a professor at that school, he would take a third of a grade away. If you ever used a cliche like suffice it to say, it goes without saying at the end of the he was like, every sentence has to be something that only you could write. So that I remember writing papers and being like, how do I express this in a way that all comes exactly from that? And to me, this is gonna sound old. The idea of GIFs and memes is so against everything that I consider to be like good communication. Like you're just literally repeating stuff that other people have done or sending the same, sure, Jan, gif or whatever that's become wit. Now I think it's so I sound so old, but when memes were coming up, I remember someone telling me about them and I was like, wait, so you're just saying stuff that people have said exactly the same way? They're like, yeah, isn't it great? I'm like, that sounds like death. So a lot of when I'm writing, I want to be like, how do I say this in a way that is very different? I mean, it's just being able to regurgitate memes is become is what people think being funny is.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, there's a. Someone reviewed like a person online, reviewed my book and complained that I didn't take memes seriously enough because I, I critic.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I, I, I, you should.

[Jesse David Fox]

Because the main thing I at least assert in the book is that there's a distinction between comedy as an art form and memes, which is just sort of like comedy is a perform art form by people who are expressing their individuality. It's like, yeah, but if I mean funny, it's like I hold comedy to a standard beyond, beyond a thing you laugh at when you're just scrolling through other things.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Dude, I could not agree more. I really am so bummed out by memes.

[Jesse David Fox]

I know.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You ask a question, what is a thing that's considered comedy. Comedy memes.

[Jesse David Fox]

I knew once you started going, I was like.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And it's like a thing that I really think about a lot, that Especially now, you know, because sometimes I'll get like. Just got a note on a script that was like, hey, maybe this character is. Should be, like, talking meme speak. I'm like, yeah, but this. This is, like, the main character of the movie. This is who we supposed to, like.

Let's not. It's not. This guy's a scientist. I don't think he should be, like, speaking in meme speak.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, the end of the special, the very end.

Talk about what you hoped for. Are you. And I don't know if you want to keep it a secret or whatever, but, like, essentially you say you. You just say, like, an earnest thing to the audience, and you have it repeat back to you. Especially the repeat back to you, I thought was very clever. But, like, what was your thinking behind that? And what does it reflect about what you're ultimately saying the special kind of meant for you, which is.

Sharing your side of the story about people's perception of you, reorienting people's, I think, relationship between celebrity comedian and audience.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So that sort of comes from. Emily always says, like, comedy or going to the movies is like, the closest thing she has to church. Really feels like we're all in this together, feeling the same things at the exact same time. And that's one of the things I've always loved about comedy. And I became very aware of it when we were doing Meltdown, like, the community of people coming to the shows. We had people who fell in love at the show, who got married.

We were walking by our house, and there's this woman who was, like, holding a kid, completely frazzled, getting ice cream, and she's like. Like, my husband and I met at your show, and she's holding a baby. So I was very aware. What I really missed about standup the entire time was that feeling of all of us in a room feeling the same stuff at the same time. And I think community truly is. I mean, it's such a cliche to say, but I feel like we have lost track of it. I think us as a society is what makes us human. And so that in that moment, I was. I was doing it for us to really feel like we're all in this together. You know, we have much more in common than we don't. It's a very divisive time, and I didn't want to get specifically political in certain kinds of ways. But I did want to highlight, like, it's hard for all of us. We're all going through this together. So say it back to me because I know you feel it too, and I want to feel it too. So that's what that is. Like. I do want the special to have a certain. Like, I want people to laugh a lot, but I also want people to feel warm or at least a little bit more hopeful coming out of it, because I do think.

I have to think that art has to be able to have some sort of impact, you know, And I think standup comedy can be particularly powerful because it can speak so directly. Like, you know, I think movies, TV shows obviously have points of view, but I think stuff gets lost. There are people who are huge fans of Star Trek who are incredibly racist. And it's like, how can you do that? The whole point of Star Trek is not that they had the first interracial kiss on screen. And you're against interracial dating. That's crazy. That was another thing I remember specifically when I was doing all those sets, I remember going up at a club following someone who was talking about how they don't agree with interracial dating. And I was like, oh, my God, now I have to make these people laugh. They laughed at that. Now they have to laugh at this. So, yeah, I just wanted to create a sense of community. Actually. James Acaster, who you've had on who's a Friend.

When I was first doing Stand up, my thing was always, I want to be able to do well in every kind of room, every kind of audience, and in doing the special. That's why I did a lot of the clubs, too, which may not always be my audience. But James to me was like, why are you doing that? It's okay if it's just playing to your audience. They're there to see you. Like, why are you trying to. And I completely agree with that. I think it's fine to just talk to the people who, like, he may not do well in every room, but he's one of the best comedians working. And I think you try and appealing to. Trying to appeal to everyone can really, like, you know, sand down all your edges. But, yeah, really going back to your question, I just wanted to create a sense of us being in the same room.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is that, you know, at the start especially, you almost cry. Are you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. That was overwhelming. I did not.

[Jesse David Fox]

What was it? I mean, you've been touring this entire time.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, I'll tell you what it was. It was, um.

So this Might be a bit heavy. Emily got sick, and we met in Chicago. She got sick in Chicago. And we immediately. Soon as she got better, we left. So weirdly, Chicago had become, like, tainted for us. You know, even though it was wonderful, it's where I started standup. I. I have friends from Chicago. Emily and I met there. So the year before the special. And we'd been planning this for a while. We were like, we have to go back, and we have to reclaim Chicago because it's become this bad thing in our. But it wasn't. It was wonderful. We're together because of Chicago. So we went back on our anniversary. We went back to our first. The place we had our first date.

Restaurant was not as nice as her grandmother. And we sort of did all the things to, like, reclaim Chicago. And we did. And I was like, okay, good. We have Chicago again. Chicago's ours again. So when we went back for the special, it really felt like coming back home in a way that Chicago had not felt for a long time. And as we were there, Emily felt was like, you know, it's my comaversary today. I was like, what? She's like, yeah, today's the day I went into the coma. My special was the. We were taping it either that night or the next day. So, like, it was really that day. So I just had a lot of that inside me, the feeling of, like, all the stuff that Chicago had meant to us and what we'd gone through in Chicago. So when I came out, I think that's what I was feeling. I was feeling like, oh, I'm back in the place where all this. This, like, kind of terrifying stuff happen. But I still have a tremendous amount of love for this city. It's not the city's fault, obviously. So I think that's what was really overwhelming. I was really in a certain headspace when Emily told me that, because I had not. You know, she's more acutely aware of those dates than I am. They're not like an anniversary in my head, but to her, they are the day she went in and the day she came out. And so I think all that was inside me. And, you know, I talk about how I opened for Zach Galifianakis there, and so I think that was part of it, too. Like, I hadn't ever done the Vic since then. So it just really felt like, you know, I'd done years of movies and TV shows where I was completely not in control. I was in the service of other people's visions, and it was great. I Had a great time. But I think I felt all the emotion of, oh, I'm doing something that it is mine. This is me. I get to control all of it. I am proud of this. This is 100% me, top to bottom. And I'm doing it in the place where I met my wife, when my wife got really sick and got better. And that, you know, happened however many years ago. Exactly. Today. I think all that stuff was really overwhelming. And also when I walked out, the. The reaction from the audience was so big, so overwhelming.

It just sort of. The moment got the better of me.

[Jesse David Fox]

I can only imagine, Right. It's like the special is you have the eternals at all experience and you're. You become not a person to them. You're just sort of like another action figure that they're moving around and having opinions about. And then comedy. You aspire to be you. So you go on stage.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And the audience is being people. Not. Not actually. They're not playing the video games of having opinions about celebrities. And even though that's happening, there's some end up being filmed and it's sort of all. And then obviously the Chicago. You're just sort of like my Kumail. The person with this life is going on stage.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And these are people who have some sense of this life in so much as they've seen that movie. And you're just like having a human moment. And it's surprising because you're like, oh, I'm just filming something. You're like, oh, wait. You're just like, oh, I forgot that this is a human experience experience we're about to have. And then you're just confronted by it because it's all a wall of people being like, hooray. Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And we sort of talked about whether we should put that in or not, because I did two shows and one of the shows I got choked up and one of them I didn't get choked up. And I was like, you know, the whole show is about vulnerability and really feeling your feelings. So it feels like it's. It feels honest to have that, like, moment in there.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, as we said, you've missed being good at stand up and now you've got done this. Like, how do you feel now?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I would want to do stand up again. I actually just now. So I sort of toured with that for a long time. You know, I did like seven or eight months of touring and then now I've been doing this play. So this is the longest break I've gone not doing standup. Since I started it up again and now that the play is ending, I'm getting a little more brain space again. I'm starting to feel. Cause when I did the special, I was like, all right, this will be it. I don't know when I'm going to do it more. Might be done forever, might be done for years. I'm starting to feel a little bit of like, I opened a Google Doc, made a new Google Doc two days ago, and wrote down a couple sentences. I was like, okay. And I told Emily, I was like, hey. So it's not gonna be like it was when I was going out twice a week every week, but I think I may wanna go to Largo here and there when, you know, Sarah, Sarah has a show or Nicole has a show, whatever, and just like try stuff.

So I'm starting to feel that feeling again of like wanting to write new material.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is, I'm gonna give this is honest feedback on the special and maybe this will be confrontational, which is this special. I was like, camille is a great stand up comedian. Like, really a great stand up comedian. So much so that I was like, I don't want him to do anything else. And this is not saying anything against your acting. I think you're a very good actor. I think you have potential. You got nominated for an Oscar, which, like, obviously it means you know how to write movies. But there's other people who write movies and there's other directors and there's other great actors. There are not as many in my mind, great stand up comedians.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you. I've thought about that. I've thought about, you know, people like.

[Jesse David Fox]

James Acaster said something similar to me where he's like, I, this is the art form that I am great at.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

And he really is really, really very good, good at it. I've thought about that because I've seen like, what I could do is just do stand up and really try and by the end of my life be like, I was a standup who made a lot of great stuff. And I'm like in the conversation, you know, it just comes down to the fact that I really like acting, movies and tv. I really enjoy it. I find it very challenging, like doing this play right now. Like, I just want to have new experiences. I want to challenge myself and do different things with standup. What I learned was when I first started acting, you know, doing Silicon Valley and stuff, this is going to sound arrogant. Maybe there was a time when I was doing acting, I was like, I have no idea how Any of this works. This is so scary to me. I don't know how to do this. I did not feel that way about stand up with standup. I was like, I feel like I understand what this is. I know how to do this. I feel like. Like I was saying, I feel like I can go up in front of and do really well. And to me, it was more exciting to do the stuff that I wasn't as good at. And so I'm not going to give up standup. I want to keep doing it, but I'll also want to do the other stuff because I do think it makes my standup better, but I also think just on its own, I love that challenge. I'm really, like, doing this play has been so exciting to me to, like, grow what you're capable of, you know?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I mean, I get it. Right. It's your. Your life.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like, it's easy for me to be like, do what I want you to do. And I think it's part of. And you talk about in special. It's like divorcing your work from the results of your work.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I. It would make no sense to then be like. And now I've decided to be one of the great.

Right.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No, but. But truly, I do enjoy doing it. I mean, the. It is a tougher life. You know, like I said, you're doing eternals. You're, like, in the lap of luxury. You're doing stand up, you're touring, you're moving around a lot. You know, it's. It's a harder life, but it's tremendously satisfying. I really love it. I really love being good at it. I want to get better at it. I just don't think I'll be letting go of the other stuff because I love doing it.

[Jesse David Fox]

You got nominated for an Emmy for Welcome to Chipmondales, and you've talked about how much you enjoyed that and. And it was scary how much you cared about it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you talk about that and what it would mean, hypothetically, to be nominated for an Emmy for this special and how it reflects how you maybe have changed again?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You want to divorce your art from the results of your art. Right. I think it would mean a lot to me because it's really me. And, you know, I was talking to. When I did Birbiglia's podcast, I was talking about this. I was like, you and me kind of took opposite paths where Birbiglia really doubled down on himself and just did stuff. He wants to do his show his. One man shows his movies. I kind of went the other way. I went and played in other people's sandboxes doing my standup again. I realized, like, oh, this is me. This is all me, 100%. And I think. I mean, you know, obviously I'd love to get nominated for an Emmy for it. I honestly don't know how to put.

I honestly don't know what expectation to have when this thing comes out. I mean, you know, so there's so many standups. Nothing really, like, you know, there's so much noise. So I'm trying not to have too many expectations about it. Obviously, it would mean a lot to me because I'm really very proud of it.

[Jesse David Fox]

You mentioned that you might be directing something. Can you say anything about what it is or what directing means?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No, I can't say what it is. I want to direct this thing that is very, very personal to me. That is about some of the things that are in the special. It's not a script I wrote or someone else wrote it.

And it just is one of those things, like, came to me to act in, and I said, yeah, I want to act in it. And then I was kind of like, I feel like I really understand this and I cannot imagine. It's just random. It's like five different things that are all extremely personal to me. It's a comedy.

And it's got some. It's got horror. It's like a horror comedy thing. I can't say too much about it because we're just.

[Jesse David Fox]

Now.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I put it on hold for a couple months while I was doing the project play. Literally next week or the week after. As soon as I finish, we're going to start, like, try and set it up. I want to do it because I really, again, having a little bit more. I want to make my. I want to be at the mercy of my own mistakes. I've been at the mercy of other people's mistakes. You know, that's what I loved about doing standup. I was like, if this fails, it's my fault. I want to be. And that's why I want to do the movie, too. I'm like, I really get it. And if it's not. Not good, I. I wanted to be on my own terms.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

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[Jesse David Fox]

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you British.

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm not.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

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[Jesse David Fox]

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

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[Jesse David Fox]

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

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[Jesse David Fox]

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

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[Jesse David Fox]

Now it's time for the final section of the show. It's a laughing round. It's like a lightning round, but because it's a common podcast, it's a laughing around. This is a. I don't know if it's on list so it's going to be a new one, which is. We used to ask people Mount Rushmore, but I determined that the comedy version of Mount Rushmore is who are your guys? In the grand tradition of WTF with Mark Merritt, I ask who are your guys?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

By stand up guys.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean, I. I would say for me, Conan o', Brien, one of my guys. I started doing comedy because of Conan o' Brien and the fact that I know him, the fact that I got to, you know, be one of the people presenting the Mark Twain Award to him was amazing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Sign note. Did you like doing that? Every time I talk to people who've done a Mark Twain Prize thing, they said they hated doing it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's very stressful. Well, you know, it's also like, for Conan, because he's such a great guy and so beloved. It's like everybody's there. So you've got, like, Colbert and you got Will Ferrell and you got Adam Sandler and you got David Letterman. It's like, I don't need all these people. And you're in a room with all these people.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, Bill Burr said if he knew how good Mulaney was going to do, he would have said no.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. And Mulaney went up first.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You know, crazy. That's why, like, I'm not going to try and do a set. I'm going to do something else. Because you got Mulaney, you got Burr, you got all these people who are.

[Jesse David Fox]

Going to do it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I'll do something else to your guys. Conan, I would say Zach Galifianakis's standup was a big, big thing. Seinfeld was one of my guys.

[Jesse David Fox]

Two famous levers of stand up for a time period. And though Zach has not released something, Zach still goes up seemingly like, period.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. When I first started going up in 2023 at Largo, he was there all. Cause he was there filming something. So I'd see Zach all the time. He's so naturally funny. One of the. Just one of the funniest people and so confident in his standup and his voice. Like, he would do stuff at Largo that I was like, I've never seen anybody do that. And he really doesn't care what the reaction is. Of course he's killing. Cause he's Zach and he's so funny. I remember I saw Zach on Conan when he was playing a piano and doing something, and I was like, what the fuck is this? This is incredible.

I would say those are the ones.

[Jesse David Fox]

Dana Gould.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I listen to Funhouse A lot. I would say those are the people that. And then. And then Chappelle. I mean, killing him softly, you know, is one of the perfect ones. I think Patrice's elephant in the room is one of the perfect hours.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. A lot of people say that killing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's so killing me softly.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's useful to be, like, as generation. Generations grow up born after it. They're just like, who's. Why is this guy this thing? Like, there was a time.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Watch this.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah. You'll know.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I watched it again recently, and it's just explosive.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It really feels like something special is happening in that room.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a favorite joke? Joke, street joke?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I like the one, you know, the. The. What's the worst thing to hear when you after blow. Willie Nelson.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Do you have a joke you wish you can steal? Do you have a new one? A joke that you saw recently that you're like, I wish I had that already and I can put it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, my God. No, not really. But I would say, you know, some of those Mr. Show sketches, I'm like, I wish. I wish I had this. Like, to me, Mr. Show is my favorite sketch of all time. And there's like a sketch in there about.

They're like, it's in the Dark Ages, and they're talking about science, magic, as if it's science and it's like a PBS document, but about magic. And it's so funny to me, those guys, you know, I mean, Bob Odenkirk's career has been so remarkable. David Cross, too. So I would say I wish I'd done Mr. Shelf.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian, living or dead, you're willing to share with us?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've talked. The biggest one is one I have talked about before, but it is bigger than any other one, is Robin Williams. You know, I've been a fan of Robin Williams my whole life. I think when you look at comedians who then became great dramatic actors, there's nobody better than Robin Williams. I think a lot of comedy people stop doing comedy and they become serious actors. And Robin Williams never stopped being funny. He would do very serious stuff, but he would still do comedies. So to me, Robin Williams is like the pinnacle of a comedy comedy career. And at Meltdown one night, I was on stage and it was our birthday. It was mine and our birthday's one day apart. It was. It was Emily's birthday, and I got off stage and I went to the side room, and Robin Williams was there. And I was like, hey. He's like, hey, I'm Robin. I'm like, yeah, man, I know. And I was like, do you want to go up? And he's like, oh, no, no, no. And I was like, are you sure? And then his hat and coat was off. He was like, just two minutes. And he went up and he destroyed. It's this funny thing where you go up and you're like, robin Williams. And people think it's gonna be some UCB person. It's gonna be Robin Williams. And then Robin Williams walks up, and people are like, what is going on? He did, like, 20 minutes. He killed, and he came off straight. And he was like, I really needed that. Then he came back a couple weeks later, he did it again. It was amazing again. And then right after that, he was gone. So to me, meeting him and having him be so kind was really, really very, very special. That was the most exciting.

You know, meeting with the hero I have ever had. I met Gallagher also. We don't have to talk about that. He's gone, but he just complained when I met him.

[Jesse David Fox]

While we're in this section, what was it like working with Steve Martin and Martin Short on that season of Genuinely incredible?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Because obviously, there's Steve Martin and Martin Short. They're legends.

Steve Martin genuinely doesn't know. He's a legend. He genuinely doesn't know. Martin Short knows. Steve Martin doesn't know. It was incredible. Because.

This is an interesting thing, maybe where. And I got this because I got to work with Albert Brooks last year as well. What those guys have is a thing where they. To them, Conan has this too. Comedy is sacred. There is no higher form of art than comedy. And I feel like a little bit my generation, especially when I moved to New York and stuff, there was this whole feeling of, like, a little bit. That effort was bad, that comedy was, like, a little bit lesser. So nothing could sound like a joke. You know, there was this feeling of, like, comedy being, like, a little bit lame and not. And you're being funny, but you can't really show that you're trying to be funny. And then working with the. How important comedy is to them and how. I don't mean this in a bad way. Shameless they are about it, where they just want to be funny. Like, if you hang out with Conan, he wants to make jokes. He wants to make you laugh. And he's not trying to downplay it. He's like, I'm trying to make you laugh. Martin Short is the same way, you know, they're just doing bits. Steve Martin is the same way. Albert Brooks was just, like, was the deal. You know, they're just, like, doing bits all the time. And I found that to be so exciting and inspiring.

And Martin Short and Steve Martin are genuinely wonderful, kind humans. Martin Short still calls me every now and then. Absolutely. Truly the best. I've gotten to work with comedy heroes and those two, you know, meet your heroes, if it's those two, because they really are the best.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you go to SNL 50?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I did not. They asked me to go, and I was like, I only want to. I don't want to be in that room being like, oh, I want to be up there doing. You know, I don't want to just watch. I would go if I had a bit to do.

[Jesse David Fox]

Got it. Do you have a favorite day ever on set?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Wow.

It's hard to know, but since we're talking about Steve Martin, Martin Short, there's a part where we. Steve Martin does a very, very Steve Martin physical bit. That's like, a long bit. And in rehearsal, I watched him, like, develop that in rehearsal in front of my eyes, figuring out exactly like, okay, I'll do this three times, and I'll put it here. No, no, no. I'll do it three times and I'll put it here. And then I'm gonna say this, and you say this. Okay. No, no, no, wait. Now you say it. Like, really working out the entire bit. And it was really, really thrilling to watch because the way he approaches comedy was quite different from how I at least approach acting, where acting comedy, like I was saying, I never think about delivery and timing, and Steve does. You watched his Apple documentary. It's really like. He really, like, is methodical and meticulous about it. Martin Short is the opposite. He's like, let's see what happens. Let's see what comes up. Watching him develop that was really, really exciting. And I was with, you know, Richard Kind. We were on the other side of the room. Steve. They're all sitting there. We're all standing here. That's the scene. And I was just like, can you believe we get to watch this? He's like, now. I mean, it's amazing. And by the way, Richard Kind, legend, truly, truly one of the best people I've ever worked with. Amazing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have another. What's something that people think is comedy that is not comedy to you?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Other than memes?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've never liked accent comedy. Like, people can do other accents. I don't get why that's Funny. I've never enjoyed it. And the fact that it crushes is baffling to me. Like, okay, yeah, he sounds a little bit like people from another country. Why is that funny? I do not understand it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a joke that never worked that you'll go to your grave being like, I was right there or wrong?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

There's a joke that's not in the special that I really liked. And a little bit of me regrets not having it in there, but Emily talks about knocked me out of it. And it's a joke about I've done it on panel. You know, by the way, when you do. When I do panel, like, you know, I'm doing Kimmel next week. The best panel is jokes that didn't work. The jokes that didn't, like, work as stand up. You do panel perfect. It's a joke about.

Cricket and how, like, in cricket, the rivalries are, like, very real. Like, you guys think your sports rivalries here are real.

It's sort of a long bit, but I talk about the history between, like, the Green Bay packers and the Chicago Bears, their rivalry and cheeseheads and all this and all that. And then I explained their whole rivalry. And there's no jokes in that part. It's just me describing the rivalry. And then I say, india and Pakistan have nuclear weapons pointed at each other. That's a rivalry.

And I just loved that joke. And it just was like, for the special, it just. I had it in the hour for a while. And I love that joke and I love everything. That part gets a big laugh. It just sort of momentum wise, never really worked in the hour. There was not never really a good place for it. I still kind of wish I'd found. I'd found a good place for it. I just never did.

[Jesse David Fox]

Last one. What is the best time you ever bombed.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Bonnaroo? I think it was 2008 or 2009. I just moved to New York and I was doing a show and I think on the show were me, Amy Schumer, Todd Berry and.

Triumph. And I was like, oh, my God. I remember going there and there's the trailer behind and we walk in and just the Triumph puppet is laying there dead in Emily. And like, oh, my God, I love smoking Michael, by the way. I've gotten to know him, hung out with him at the Conan, Mark Twain thing. He's a fucking great guy. Obviously a legend. So we do this show and Bonnaroo. So this Show's at like 2pm Metallica's playing over there. You can kind of Hear Metallica, and we're the only show that's in a tent. And so it's people who've been. If they want to get out of the heat, this is where they come to nap and stuff. And they've been doing mushrooms for three days. So I went up on stage.

I was up first. Smigel put me up first. And it is not going well. At is not going well. And I start getting booed, like, pretty heavily. I remember Nick Thune was sitting in the front row. I started getting booed pretty heavily. And then I start yelling at them, and then they sort of come around to my side and they start sort of laughing and cheering. And I'm like, no, have the courage of your convictions. Boo me. And then I made them boo me. Even after they stopped booing me, I made them boo me. I did the whole set and I got off stage and then Michael was like, you're going to be closing the show from here on out. It still comes up. Like, if I. Every now and then I'll have a YouTube clip. One of the comments will be like, I saw him have the worst set I've ever seen at Bonnaroo 10 years ago. Well, 15 years ago now. I would say that's the most memorable bomb I've had in that. I was like, I'm proud of that bomb. I'll wear that badge.

[Jesse David Fox]

Thank you so much.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Jesse David Fox]

That was, of course.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That was so fun.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox, and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.