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- [00:00]
A
Have you interest to do you not play the comedy seller?
- [00:10]
B
What a question.
- [00:17]
A
This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, writer, Vulture, and author of comedy book. My guest today is Michelle Buteau. We talk about the significance of being the first female comedian to ever film a special at Radio City Music hall, co creating the sitcom Survival of the Thickest on Netflix, in which she stars as Mavis. And how you can talk about anything or anyone on stage if you just make it funny and do it in a way that doesn't make anyone feel unsafe. We laughed. She cried, like, really so much that I almost cried, but I didn't. And overall, we have a damn good time. So here is Michel Buteau. I'm here with Michelle Buteau. You thank. Thank you so much.
- [00:55]
B
Oh, my God. Thank you for having a bitch.
- [00:58]
A
What is the funniest thing that happened to you this week?
- [01:00]
B
I was on a flight home from la. I believe that I left my wallet on that flight. The next day I was supposed to go to Miami for my aunt's funeral. Couldn't find my wallet. Couldn't go to the funeral. Supposed to be a pallbearer. Supposed to do a reading. She was my favorite aunt. And I'm like, well, I have to believe in, like, a higher power and just, you know, get out of church. Hut. And be like, this is for a reason. Also, like, no more purses that don't have a zip thing on top. This was the purse. It's open. It was on the overhead. I'm sure it fell out. And to me, I think it's hilarious because I'm 47, 21 from the waist down. You'll start that rumor. And I have to like, I'm like an 18 year old that, like, got drunk and lost its wallet or something. I have no cards. I'm living on Venmo.
- [01:49]
A
Yeah.
- [01:50]
B
Yeah. I'm like, you know what I like. You don't even want to know what I had to do to get this smoothie.
- [01:55]
A
I have no idea.
- [01:55]
B
I had to show my left tit.
- [01:57]
A
But you got it.
- [01:58]
B
I got it. So that's like the funniest thing that's happened to me. And I'm sure Aunt Betty would enjoy the process.
- [02:04]
A
The last time I was on a flight, I left my laptop.
- [02:06]
B
Oh, my God. Did you say goodbye to it?
- [02:09]
A
Oh, I just. I did. I literally just put it in the little thing and be like, cool, I'm gonna get my bag and then I'll get that. And then I got my bag and then left.
- [02:17]
B
And then you left because that's what you do. Like, I remember the. Like, I went to Argentina one time and I was like, 28, and I had a debit card, and it was like one of those, like, old school South American debit. And you put it in and then you get the money. And then I left and I forgot my card in there. And that was my first day there. And I was completely fucked for the next 10 days. So you just have to pay attention or something because I was so used to, like, get in the car and then the money.
- [02:46]
A
Okay, anyways, so let's talk about Radio City. I want to talk about.
- [02:51]
B
Oh, my God.
- [02:53]
A
So your last special film, the Radio City Music Hall. Can you walk me through the process to pick that venue?
- [03:01]
B
I really like to move with intention. I feel like, you know, if we're doing this crazy out of the box thing, why not? I feel like comedy's been. It has become such a. Like a regular job now where, like, everybody's either, like, an influencer or a tiktoker or whatever, and it's just like, yeah, I'm a comedian. Like, no one questions it anymore. It's just. And when I started, it was just like, you're what? You know what I mean? It was like, almost like I was gonna have a blue camel toe and go to space. People are like, I don't got it. What's the journey? And. But now it's just kind of. I feel like, become this, like, mundane thing. And so, you know, And I'm a type of bitch. Like, we're not promised tomorrow. So I'm just, like, gonna go out with a bang no matter what, you know? And that's kind of how I. Not kind of is how I live. And it's amazing that I'm able to save money. Cause I'm like, champagne. Because we don't know. And. And when I was looking at venues, you know, all the ones that I could really afford, and I knew that I could fill those seats, everybody shot there already, and they're awesome New York institutions. But I'm like, I don't want this to look like everybody else is special. I want to look like. I want it to look like mine. Especially on a platform like Netflix, because, you know, there's so much content. There's so many, like, little thumbnails you can like, literally, it's like, where do I go? And, you know, I feel like, why not put some thought into stuff? Because I look at specials and I'm like, I don't know if they're In New York or Ohio or Canton. Like, where are we? It's just like a maroon curtain, and it just looks the same. And so I was working with Paige Hurwitz, who is Wanda Sykes. Sykes. Sykes. Psych eyes.
- [04:45]
A
I guess it's technically Sykes Sykes, but you wouldn't say it.
- [04:48]
B
Wanda. Wanda's.
- [04:51]
A
Wanda's.
- [04:51]
B
Wanda's producing partner. That's Wanda Sykes? Yeah. And, you know, I. She's an amazing producer because I gave her, like, this, like, wish list of. I wanted to feel like a New York City night out. I want it to feel like a place that people have never been but always want to go. It should feel familiar, but also, like, kind of exotic. Like, oh, my God, where are we? And Radio City Music hall was, like, on the list. But I never thought I could do it because it felt like an episode of say it's the dress, and I'm looking at the Nina Paterno, whatever it's called dress, and I'm like, I can't afford it. It won't fit. This won't work out. But I just want to see. And I walk in, and I've been there before. I've been going there since I was like, I don't know, six for class trips. And, like, the seats are amazing and the stage is cool. And even all the workers there, all the union workers look healthy.
- [05:43]
A
Yeah.
- [05:43]
B
You know, they look like they're getting paid. They have manicures and nice feet. They definitely upgrade their pedicures to, like a 10 minute massage. And I'm like, this is nice. You know, this is nice.
- [05:54]
A
Yeah.
- [05:55]
B
And then we started crunching the numbers. I'm like, this is difficult because the only special that I ever seen at Radio City Music hall was John Mulaney's. And, like, you know, John's huge. And I think he was there, like, the whole week, or at least like a long time. And he used all the. All the toys.
- [06:13]
A
Yeah.
- [06:14]
B
That that building has to offer. And I was like, oh, my God, if I can do this, I want to keep it simple. I want to keep it still in, like, the Beautopia world, where it's just like, top City, me, lip gloss, a night out, disco. And, you know, I looked at other venues, too, but I kept coming back to Radio City. And then I, you know, I asked the people that, you know, showed us the venue, gave us the tour. What other female comedians have shot a special here? And they're like, no one. And then it almost became like a bad improv sketch. I'm like, no one. No One. No one. No one ever. No one to shoot. Yeah, to shoot one. And I was like, english is all of our first languages, but we're going in this, like, yeah, really dumb circle, and no one is tapping out. And I'm like, can you look it up? And now we're all looking it up, but we need the WI fi password for the. I was like, what is that? I just want to be sure. And then I got the gooseies. And then my left nipple got hard. Cause that's the one that still works. And I was like, this is bigger than me. This feels like a thing. Not that I need to do, but I should do. I don't know. When that feeling hits you, you have to listen to it. And I was like, I want to do this. It was so hard because I had just played the Beacon months before, and any comedian knows when you play a venue like, that, you've tapped your audience out. Especially someone, like. Because I'm doing other things. And so I'm not. Like, I don't even know if people know that. I do stand up sometimes because, like, I remember when Utopia came out, people were like, oh, I hate when actors try to stand up. I'm like, what? You know me from acting? That's wild.
- [07:54]
A
The voice from the Circle just in.
- [07:56]
B
Exactly. Like, I hate when hosts try to do stand up. It's just like, what?
- [08:01]
A
Yeah. And for those who don't know the basics, like, the beacon's like, 3,000 seeds. Yes. I think, like, Radio City is, like, over 6,000.
- [08:08]
B
6,000. Yes.
- [08:09]
A
And that means either you have to get all those 3,000 people to come, or there's secretly a whole other group of people who, I mean, obviously have more than 9,000 fans in New York City, but they have to be free that night and blah, blah, like, oh, that's.
- [08:21]
B
Oh, my God. Yes. And they have to, like, want to come out and, like, the tickets. You know, I love to make my tickets affordable because I know what that's like to stretch your dollar and say, okay, I'm going to go out this one time this month. Especially, like, go off Beyonce and Kendrick. But, like, I make money, and I'm like, what? This is a mortgage payment with an hoa. So, like, what? So I want to. I want to make things affordable because I want people to come out in groups.
- [08:53]
A
Yeah.
- [08:54]
B
You know, comedy is a shared experience. You know, it is. It's the restaurant with the tapas and the big tables. So, like, let's do that. And it just felt perfect. It also felt like a Takeover. You know, I always especially like producing any tour. I want to make sure that the venue is by enough street lights, mass transportation, you know, because I want like black, brown, fat, queer people to, you know, move in the world and feel safe to wear whatever they want to wear, you know, to let their. And let those freak flag flies. Happy pride, everyone. But like, I was like, oh, this is. This is nice. But then you gotta fill them seats. And that was crazy. And I couldn't. You know, the plan was to shoot two days, two shows, and I couldn't afford that. And then it was like, how about we do two shows in one night? Because typically you do an early show and a late show, and then you edit the best of the best together. And we couldn't do that. I couldn't. I was like, how do I fill. It was around 5000. With camera kills.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah.
- [09:58]
B
And that's when. That's when you bring in the camera and you take up seats and stuff like that. But I was like, how do I fill 5,000? I cannot. Like, I'm not on only fans who's coming for this? Do you know what I mean? Even Wiki feet is like a 3 out of 10. So, like, fact check that. Can we fact check that? Ibrahim. Oh, he's not here. Perfect. What's his name? Zach. Great. Yeah. So I took a chance on myself. I'm like, it's gonna be a one take.
- [10:27]
A
Yeah. I mean, so to. For context, specials. Usually most comedians will shoot two shows because if one doesn't go well or if you want to cut together or whatever. Some comedians do four, I believe. Yes, sir. Rod Carmichael shot six or eight for Nathaniel. Like, wow. But a small.
- [10:43]
B
It was a blue note. Yeah. So it was like, what, 180?
- [10:45]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So. And with camera kills, who knows? But it's like, it is really risky to do.
- [10:52]
B
Yeah.
- [10:53]
A
Literally no one ever does it other than the few. I feel like even if comedians shoot live specials, they do two shows.
- [10:59]
B
Yes.
- [10:59]
A
And then so they can have backups for when they re edit it. Did you have to approach how you approach the set differently to be like, oh, I need to make sure I can do the set in a way where I can. I will not mess up at all.
- [11:10]
B
Yeah. So the set was. Because it's such a big, big stage and I don't move around a lot, it was important for me to work with a set designer and a DP that understood how to make it feel intimate, even though it was big. I do do a dance bit. How to make it feel comfortable. Because I, you know, sometimes you see people like women out wearing a gown. And you know, we say the gown is wearing them, they're not wearing it. So I'm like, I need to be comfortable in this space. And I think we really achieved that. And even down to the, you know, I'm a former editor, and so if I'm filming something, I'm always like, outside of my body. Just like, that's the take, that's not the take. And so I'm just like a weirdo like that. And so even while filming, I'm like, when we ended it, I ended it. The last joke I told, it was like an okay response. And then I just like, did it again. And then like, everyone called on. They're like, yeah. I was like, get up. Treat me like I'm Michael J. Fox at the end of Teen Wolf. I just made that basket covered in hair.
- [12:18]
A
Yeah, I guess you can't tell the audience ahead of time. Like, you have to. You also have to be really good. Cause you're the only audience we have. They don't realize that they can't be in their head about that. They're on camera too.
- [12:27]
B
And they're like, yeah, no, you gotta take em for a little ride.
- [12:30]
A
That part where you dance, it's a very extended dance bit. Did you put that in because you're like, I need a thing that like, shows that I'm on this stage?
- [12:37]
B
No, I just. I started doing that dance bit like at City Winery when I first started workshopping the material, because I touch on social justice issues and personal stuff, but I'm also a goofy ass bitch and I love to dance. And if you see any entrance or exit of any morning show or late night show that I've done, I'm dancing. She's a thick Caribbean bitch from Jersey. Grab the bag, fat. Spin me around, Colbert. You know what time it is? Come on. Don't put me in a Zumba class. I'm gonna go right to the front and the back. Like, I love to dance. I love to move my body in a joyful way. That is my free therapy. And I've always been that bitch. I mean, like, even when I'm dancing, even when I'm cooking, I'm dancing, you know? So like, yeah, that was. I was like, oh, let's just incorporate it. But it was true because that was a true story.
- [13:26]
A
Yeah.
- [13:27]
B
You know, I didn't know what I was doing, so I just started to dance.
- [13:30]
A
And originally, can you explain basics of the story? Just if people haven't seen it, yes.
- [13:35]
B
Oh, my God. So my husband is Dutch, and he's really good at just drugs and being high. A little high. A dolla. Do you. You know, a sko. And I am terrible. I'm just like a very friendly crackhead. I'm like, who are you? Where are you going? Do you want to buy my mango stick? I have no mango. I'm just like. Like. I remember he gave me an edible, and we went to the. Was it a Knicks game? That's the basketball team. And so I was a little too high at very high. And I felt like I was flying, like, truly flying. Heartbeat in my ears. Was I driving off a bridge? I don't know. I did feel like I was. What was that movie with Keanu Reeves where everyone kept falling asleep?
- [14:16]
A
Oh, the Matrix.
- [14:18]
B
No, the other one. Oh, no, that's Leo DiCaprio.
- [14:22]
A
Oh, inception.
- [14:23]
B
Inception. I felt like I was in Inception. I was like, in an elevator, stuck between.
- [14:28]
A
Got it. Gotta get.
- [14:28]
B
You know what I mean? I was like, I don't.
- [14:30]
A
The world is moving and there's things.
- [14:31]
B
Yes. And I was like, I got to go. And the announcer was scary. And I was like, are we winning or losing? Are we all winners inside? Like, it was. And then it was just like, a lot of kneecaps and wedgies. And I was like, I don't feel safe. And I was right in the front and, you know, dry mouth from the weed and the popcorn. I was like, this is terrible. And as soon as, like, we were about to go, they put me on the celeb cam. And it was a celeb cam, but with, like, I felt the bass in my voice. Like, I don't even know what they said, but it was like, you. And I was like, oh, my God. And so fight or flight, you know, my fight is Rhythm Nation by Janet Jackson. And so I just started, like, doing that stuff. And then I got up and started dancing. And by the time I looked back up at the screen, I wasn't even on screen anymore. But I just kept dancing out the hallway, just like a sad Dominican forest gump bachatang their way back to the exit. And I was like, this is. This is wild. This is why I don't go outside. This is why I have people over, because I don't know how to act. So why did I bring that? Why did we bring this up?
- [15:38]
A
Because that's the bit that has the dance.
- [15:41]
B
Yes, yes. And so originally, you know, I was performing it to Rhythm Nation, and that was really Fun, but we couldn't. Jennet Jackson's estate never got back to us.
- [15:51]
A
Got it. Got it.
- [15:52]
B
So we couldn't use it. And I probably couldn't afford.
- [15:55]
A
Especially if you're paying for Radio City.
- [15:57]
B
Especially for Radio City. So I was like, we don't need a hat on a hat. And so, yeah, I just wanted something 90s groovy, something that definitely gave you, like, a wigwami pleated skort vibe. Like something that would make Deborah Gibson happy and proud.
- [16:14]
A
What. I guess the question I was wondering is, like, I think there's people. As a person who is so, like, invested in social justice, I'm curious your feelings of, like, what is the value of a symbolic gesture like this? Like the first woman doing a special at Radio City? You know, obviously there's, like, there's cynical people, like, oh, this is symbolic gestures. These stuff don't actually do the work, or whatever. And a person who does both this and also, I think, is quite invested in community organizing. I'm curious, what do you think the value of a thing like this is?
- [16:46]
B
Oh, my God, it's everything. It lives on forever and all of time. And it's a point of reference. And for me, growing up, I didn't know that I could, like, do anything on camera because I never saw anyone like me. So how am I supposed to know someone with my body? How do they move on camera? How do they sit and stand? Everyone is, you know, tucked behind a counter or in a kitchen or has an apron on or is, like, sweaty or is, like a tired mom. And I'm just like, but just, what about a beautiful bitch living her life in the world? And so that's why diversity is important. Then also in this day and age, you know, with our actors union, if we don't work, we don't get health insurance. So what are we saying? This is a community of people that don't deserve to get their holes checked because we don't want to write the story. Like, that's just so crazy to me. And so it's important to take responsibility for your platform if you. If you are ever so lucky to have one.
- [17:41]
A
The other thing about when I saw that you were doing there, it made sense because, like, the thing I think about you is you're a comedian who truly has played everywhere. A lot of comedians say they can play everywhere, but then they ultimately just play the same two places where you have played everywhere. Coming up. And I thought it might be interesting to talk about certain rooms you played and tell a story or moment that symbolizes what that experience was like for you or just for people who don't see comedy spaces to get a sense of it. Can you tell me about performing at therapy? The Hell's Kitchen Gay Club.
- [18:12]
B
Oh my God. Therapy. Beautiful gay lounge in the 50s West 50s in Manhattan. Closed down during COVID I would do electroshock. Therapy was the name of the show hosted by Adam Sank, who's awesome. I think he still does stand up, so check him out. But it was so dope because I called it the Gay Apollo. You're in a room on a Sunday night with half off Casey Diaz and Cosmos with gay men who just want to fucking. And if you can get on that stage and command their attention, then you can really go anywhere. Yeah, it didn't even matter what I was saying. It just like taught me confidence, truly and just keep going. But then also it was like a beautiful community. Like, I still talked to the managers that work there and I had my bachelorette party there because it just felt like a safe haven, you know?
- [19:03]
A
Is there any specific night or show for from that time that you remember.
- [19:07]
B
God, Al something or the other who owned a comedy club here? He had a kid that was transitioning to become a woman. And then she brought her mom out and we all got really drunk and I kissed her mom. So it's like a wild time. It was a wild.
- [19:31]
A
Just kissing people's mom.
- [19:33]
B
I know, I know. But you know, I love hard.
- [19:39]
A
What can you tell me about the uptown black rooms?
- [19:43]
B
Oh, my goodness. The chitlin circuits. Also a confidence builder. But that was like, like if you could work a black room, you know, whether it's in the Bronx or Harlem or deep in Brooklyn, you can make money. Word. Because it's like, you know what I mean? Because it's a commuter. It's a. It's a small community. Right? It's. It's a. It's a tight knit community. Like even doing Friday and Saturday nights at the New York Comedy Club with Seymour Swan, who grew up in the Chelsea projects with the Wayans brothers and Whoopi Goldberg. Like he had a dynamite. Like it was. Patrice used to go. But then it was like Todd Lynn, like just like Patrice o' Neill. Yes. Yeah. If you could go and be a woman and a light skinned a bitch and make these motherfuckers laugh, then you, you can get. You can make money, you know? And I wasn't about that. Like, I was into comedy because I loved it and it felt healing for me and I love connecting with people And I love that. That moment where I made people laugh and tickle them and surprise them. That was actually funny. And like, I didn't get into comedy because I was like, lonely or needed friends or like to date. You know, a lot of people, like, get into it because they're just like, how do I meet people? And it's like, this isn't like, you know, softball after work says. This is like, you know, you're gonna hear jokes about yourself and then you're gonna be the one that like, you know, was on their knees in that bathroom the whole time. And I. A lot of people were doing that and I was like, not into it. I just like to keep it separate all the time. I don't like when my gravy touches the rice. You see what I'm saying? Thank you. And yeah, that was. That was also like eye opening because I was like, oh, this is whole world. You know, there's this whole Def Jam world, but it's just like, what's the peripheral circle? Like the steps before Comic View and Def Jam.
- [21:30]
A
Yeah.
- [21:30]
B
And so I was like, really interesting too, because you're going into neighborhoods where it's just like, okay, okay.
- [21:36]
A
As. As a legend of the Brooklyn scene.
- [21:39]
B
Me?
- [21:40]
A
Yeah, I think so. I think you're one of the comedians that people go, like, who performed at Union Hall, Bell House, et cetera. For people who do not know that. What. What was that experience like for you? Playing those rooms?
- [21:50]
B
Awesome. I still want to play those rooms. I still play the Bell House. When I'm trying out new material or like doing a podcast, it feels like going home. It's like a dinner party, but you're hosting, you know, it's like when you're moderating, it's like fun. And when I say easy, like, I mean like a safe space where you can like, truly spaghetti theory, like any of them jokes. Yeah. Also like my crowd. You know, I used to. Back in the day, I'm like, it's fine to have people who think differently. And now I'm like, no, give me that bubble, bitch. Give me that bubble. I want a bubble. I want like minded motherfuckers. I'm not trying to change people's mind.
- [22:26]
A
Yeah.
- [22:26]
B
Been married for 17 years. I'm not trying to change nobody else's mind. Get out of here.
- [22:31]
A
Do you have a definitive road story? Playing the road?
- [22:34]
B
Like what? Like touring, like colleges, like, whatever.
- [22:38]
A
I guess it's the pre road before you are like, people are coming to see you on purpose, but you're still doing It. And you're driving between wherever and wherever.
- [22:46]
B
Yeah. You know, doing the colleges back in the day for at least, like, six or seven years, I really thought it sort of, like, hindered my voice as a comedian because it felt like I was just pandering to college students. 11am at a community college or 7pm and people are showing up in, like, flannel pants for, like, free chicken tenders. And I'm just like, hey, guys, here's a joke about me in college that I barely remember. You know, it took me places. I performed in 49 states. Do you know the. Can you guess the state I haven't performed in?
- [23:18]
A
Alaska?
- [23:19]
B
Yes. How'd you know? Well.
- [23:24]
A
Well, there's. There's 50 states, and two are harder to get to. And I was like. Of the two, which is the one less likely for you to get to?
- [23:31]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that one.
- [23:33]
A
I gotta go.
- [23:34]
B
I gotta go. I think I might go for my 50th, since it's, like, the 50th state. Yeah. And sell it to Netflix. Live from Alaska. I know. It's just like me on a boat eating salmon. You know, in that time, like, I couldn't see anything for myself. I was just like. It just felt like a very dark tunnel. I didn't know what the light would be. I just knew that there had to be one. Like, my rate wasn't good. I think I was getting 1500. And that's airfare and hotel included. These college kids take you out to dinner for way too long. I never need to be at TGIF Fridays before doing an hour of material for. You know what I mean? Like, the spinach dip. There's no spinach. And now I got bubble guts on stage. You know what I mean? It's like, what? And so it really kind of taught me how to, like, move through the world. Living in New York City is already like its own education because you really can go to any city in the world and, like, do you. But traveling to 49 states for, like, $800 to perform for people who don't know you, who don't care about you, is a different level of fuckery that will make you stronger. So by the time you get, like, an audition in front of, like, three very happy casting directors with, like, white jeans and denim shirts and flats, you're like, we're up sess. That's fucking nothing. That's nothing. You're gonna hurt my feelings. Like, I was in Staten island and half of the students had their back to me. Ask Victor Fanato. He was there. He started yelling. He was like, can you turn around? And they were like, no. And I was like, literally, the college is called csi. Don't fuck with them.
- [25:07]
A
Yeah.
- [25:08]
B
It's Staten Island. But like. Yeah. I mean, traveling light, moving quickly in an airport, all those things.
- [25:14]
A
For those who don't believe me, I used to book do people that booked in when I went to college. And we booked.
- [25:19]
B
Oh, wow.
- [25:20]
A
I believe Bill Bart, Bill Burr opening for Kevin Hart. And with a platinum movie theater, the only people that went were the committee that booked them.
- [25:27]
B
Yeah.
- [25:27]
A
So let's say 12 people that had to be there.
- [25:30]
B
Yeah.
- [25:31]
A
For people who both play.
- [25:32]
B
Yeah. Did you burn your budget for the both of them?
- [25:34]
A
Not yet. They were still kind of.
- [25:36]
B
Oh, wow.
- [25:36]
A
Affordable enough that.
- [25:37]
B
Yeah.
- [25:38]
A
College was a while ago for both their careers.
- [25:40]
B
Yeah. College is really for a comedian. It's like a third world country. It's like the haves and have nots.
- [25:45]
A
Yeah.
- [25:45]
B
Like, I remember. I wish I could be Daniel Tosh one day.
- [25:47]
A
Yeah. It's such a specific time where Daniel. We could not afford Daniel.
- [25:52]
B
It is. It's like t. Trl like you remember where you were.
- [25:55]
A
It's like, we booked them and then we booked Dane Cook. And Dane Cook was like, would sell 10,000 interests. Like the time where it's like, as we were saying, like, now comedy. So everyone knows comedians, but it was at a time where it's like most people knew one comedian at a time.
- [26:09]
B
Yeah.
- [26:09]
A
And that comedian was Dane Cook. And then it was Daniel Tosh.
- [26:12]
B
Yes. And every other guy name that had a name that started with D. Have you.
- [26:18]
A
Have you. Have you interest to. Do you not play the comedy seller?
- [26:22]
B
Oh, what a question. So while I have love for institutions like the comedy seller and the comedy store, because I do believe it's been, like a safe haven for a lot of comedians. When I was starting, I had a hard time auditioning, going there, trying to find the right person, trying to figure out what the lay of the land is, who I'm supposed to talk to. Because back in the day, it was like, you need to have, like, the okay from two people that work there, but they have to be like, upper level. Okay. Not lower level. And to me, I was just, like, really turned off by that. Cause I'm just like, we're all on a level. You know, as the only child that went to, like, so many new schools, I'm like, I don't. We're only in competition with ourselves. Like, stop. And so a lot of friends are like, I can get you in. I can get you in. But it just never. It never felt like the right fit for me. And I think comedy clubs are an amazing place to start to live, if you want. If you want that. But I also had, like, a. Not just, like, the seller or the store, it's just, like, a lot of comedy clubs in general. Like, we don't have a union as comedians, and so we have to literally fight for every dollar, every chicken tender, every drink, you know, the door, the this or that. And it just felt. I felt really uncomfortable with people making so much money off of my back. And. Do you know what I mean? And I'm like. And I kind of have to, like. I'm beholden to the same 15 minutes, because as one of two women or the only woman on the show, people are gonna remember us if we don't kill. Murder. Violate.
- [28:14]
A
Oh, violating monster truck. I don't know if I've heard violated.
- [28:17]
B
I don't know. It's just like, anything aggressive to know that we're doing good. But, like. Like Rafifi and, like, all these, like, really cool alternative places that would, like, host their own shows and do their own thing, and there was, like. Like this great safe space where you could just try new shit. I'm just like, how about if I just mix that? How can I. Can I mix the metals? You know, can I have, like, a gumbo? Can I make some. Can I leave this night with some money in my pocket and not constantly ask, like, tired managers, is this okay? Is this okay? Is this okay? You know what I mean? And so I. It didn't even matter if I didn't know the audience or what, like, who I was getting in those seats. Just people in the seats is great. Yeah, people in the seats is great. But money in my pocket is also amazing, and we deserve that. That's not for everybody. That's just not for everybody. It's like, everybody can't produce and everybody can't host. Some people are just meant to open middle headline.
- [29:11]
A
Yeah.
- [29:12]
B
You know, and some people can, like, really do it all. If you're, like, crazy enough to do that shit, good for you. You're supposed to. But, yeah, I mean, I really. I have friends who are, like, seller people, and I love that for them. But, yeah, I'm really. What is it? What is it? The own drum playing to the beat of my beat.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah, yeah. Playing beat.
- [29:37]
B
Yeah. And I've always been that bitch. One foot in, one foot in each, like, little thing to be like, hey.
- [29:43]
A
Y' all, that's Fair.
- [29:44]
B
Yeah.
- [29:44]
A
I want to ask you about the theragun joke from your special oh, my God. For a variety of reasons, but for those who haven't seen it, can you share the basic story?
- [29:55]
B
How dare you? My kids are here.
- [29:58]
A
They're not in the room.
- [29:59]
B
They're not listening. They're not listening. My son's godmother is one of my really close friends. In fact, I wrote this character, Marley, after her in my show Survival the Thickest. And I had sciatica because I take care of kids and the patriarchy. It's like, you know, stuff happens. And I had a theragun on the coffee table, and she was like, oof, hot Friday night. And I was like, girl, you natty. And I was like, it literally has, like, gun in the name of it. And she's like, depends where you point it. And I'm like, yuck. I said, girl, it's my theragun. It's got the word gun in it. And she said, depends where you point it. I said, girl. She said, girl, what? I said, girl, you stunk. She said, what? I looked at her. I said, girl, you like to get your pussy beat up like that? And, like, I. She's such a quiet, like, bookworm. I just looked at her. I was just like, oh, my God. Do you like to get your pussy beat up like that? I had.
- [31:11]
A
No, you said that in the moment.
- [31:13]
B
I did. That was like an actual rip from the head, like, yes. And we, like, cackled, you know, like, we have our fried green tomatoes moment all the time. But I was like. And there was so much more we said in the moment. Like, I definitely, like, you know, edited that shit down. But, I mean, these are. These are the moments that I love to have with my friends and family where we could just, like, have a key, you know? I remember when my husband from Holland, when he first moved here, he was like, I can't tell if you guys. It sounds like you guys are mad at each other, but you're laughing. I was like, that's what it is. And he's like, but it sounds like you're being mean, you know? I was like, yeah, we're ripping on each other, but it's funny. You know what I mean? It's out of love. And now he knows how to do it a little bit. But I'm like, don't come for me unless I said for you. Stop it. It's like, you still have to sleep with me at night. But, yeah. And we laughed so hard, like, we were crying. And I started going down the list of, like, women she's dated. And I'm just like, I don't know who anyone is anymore. And every time we talked about it, we would cry. And then I would, like, retell the story, and then people would be cracking up. I'm like, oh, this is nice. Yeah, we gotta tell the story. And then, like, you know, my friends are very diverse from all walks of life. And so it is nice and funny and should be very normal to tell a story about a friend who happens to be gay and getting her pussy beat up by herself. You know what I mean? And not, you know, put anything else on it except for, like, the love that we have for each other, you know, and the razzing.
- [32:50]
A
So you, you would tell it as a story. You tell your, like, other friends, and then you were like, if it works for them, I should take it on stage. Does it evolve when you do it on stage?
- [32:57]
B
100%, yeah. 100%. You know, it's sort of like the difference between, like, a mom and pop shop and like Costco. You gotta make it easy for the masses. And it's. It's a real setup punch vibe, you know what I mean? But, like, the through line still lives up in there.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. How do you do that? Like, how are you? Do you just. You have the memory of it, you talk it on stage and it just evolves per show. Like, what is your general process with a story like that?
- [33:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I write. I do a lot of writing on stage. And then I have like those core friends where I'm just like, is this a thing or is this too long? And I have friends too, who I'm like, is this, is this offensive to you? Like, how do you take this? And I do a little check with the homies, but also I. You know, when I took classes in stand up comedy from Steve Rosenfeld and American Comedy Institute, he always said, if it's the chuckle at an open mic, it can grow into a laugh. And so I never forgot that. And I think that was like, rule number three. I don't remember rule number two, but rule number one was have fun. I think rule number two was take the mic off, take the mic out of the stand. These are, like, very basic, important rules. Everybody learn them. So, yeah, I was like, it's it. But also, like, I love telling the story. So I'm like, people, like, also want to see me have fun.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah.
- [34:24]
B
So I'm like, I'm having fun and a lot of. And sometimes it Was. You know, sometimes people were like. It was polarizing for some audiences, for sure.
- [34:34]
A
For which. Which aspect of it, I think the.
- [34:37]
B
Sexual nature got it. That's what I assume.
- [34:40]
A
I was like. I don't know. It was just, like, too much. They're like, I think so.
- [34:45]
B
I remember opening for Hasan at Radio City Music hall, like, a couple weeks before I was filming, and I was like, I'm gonna do this joke on the stage, and they'll love it. And I realized it was like a. Like a. Like, very sweet, conservative Indian people. And I was like, never mind. But I can't bail. So I, like, did it into the darkness.
- [35:05]
A
There's no other version of that story where you start it and then it goes later?
- [35:08]
B
No, no. And a lot of, like, comedians that sing songs will tell you, I hope the song works, because I gotta commit.
- [35:16]
A
To this fucking song. So you have the joke. How do you decide to then, like, build to a larger point about, like, it's okay to make this joke?
- [35:25]
B
I don't know how that happened. I don't know how it came together. I just remember being so offended and hurt and angry. But anytime I feel something, I'm like. And this is like, my gentle parenting for my kids. You're not losing. You're always learning something. Like, how am I inspired? But, like, how can I be inspired by this? How can I use this for good? How can I make myself feel better, but also make it a teachable moment? And how do I make things a teachable moment? It's always, like, laughter.
- [35:53]
A
So specifically, it was tied to, like, I'm gonna say Dave Chappelle's name specifically in that moment. And specifically, as a contrast to what you're trying to do, you set up. We can make jokes that make people involving communities, make them feel heard and seen.
- [36:11]
B
Yeah.
- [36:12]
A
And you don't have to do what you believe Dave Chappelle was doing.
- [36:16]
B
Yeah.
- [36:17]
A
And specifically, you say, like, the job is to be funny. Like, what. What you're doing is not funny.
- [36:22]
B
But all I'm saying is it can be done. It can be done. We can tell jokes and stories and not disparage a whole community. We can do that. We can make it funny. We just have to work at it. Right. So if you guys ever run into Dave Chappelle, can you let him know that shit? I mean, I used his name because, you know, he's said some really egregious stuff about the trans community in four specials. And so I'm like, I have trans people in my life. I have Non binary people in my life, they like walking down the street. Is it Walking down the street shouldn't be dicey. You shouldn't be one date away from being killed. You know, my friend Peppermint, you know, does a lot of work for the ACLU and she has to remind people, I'm in my 40s as a black trans woman, statistically, I shouldn't even be alive right now. That's insane. And what I loved about Dave is that it felt like back in the day, he was punching up. It was the man. When did we become so rich and out of touch that we're like the men now, you know? And that was more just like, like a cry for help, a love letter, a hey girl, hey, you know, a Color Purple. Like, you know, because I'm like, are we part of this community together or not? But, you know, he's not the only one. But, you know, I'm just like, you know, if I'm gonna say the thing, then I'm gonna say the thing. And it was A lot of people ask me, do you want to keep that in there?
- [38:10]
A
People at Netflix or people in your life?
- [38:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, people in my life. Netflix is really cool. Yeah, they're like, really cool. You know, they're just, Especially the stand up team.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah.
- [38:21]
B
Like Robbie and Gridge, you know, they're cool and they, they want to help people find their voice, you know, and feed all the platforms, you know, so.
- [38:32]
A
People were like, do you want to keep it in? And you.
- [38:34]
B
Yeah.
- [38:36]
A
And did you debate taking it out or you just knew?
- [38:39]
B
Never until, like the day before. Yeah, yeah, never until, like, and like when you edit something and you put it in for like, color mixing and then like audio. So, like, it's, I'm just like, go. Yeah, absolutely not. And then like, it's been in there, like in the dock, like, fully loaded. And my special drops December 31st. I thought about it, like, December 30th. I was like, wait a minute, this is gonna be a thing. But also, again, we're not promised tomorrow. We live one life. I know who I am. I, I, I know what I believe. I know who I love. I feel like I know what's right. I'm not saying. And I literally said, I'm not saying. Don't say something. Because a lot of comedians would be like, you can't say anything anymore. You can, I think you should make it funny. And if, you know, people around the world are telling you this is hurtful, then maybe listen to them. I mean, we should all Be held accountable.
- [39:34]
A
Yeah. I mean, even you make this address funny. You have a joke in it. It's not like you're just like, stop the special. Make joke.
- [39:40]
B
Yeah.
- [39:41]
A
You have the goat joke.
- [39:42]
B
Yes.
- [39:43]
A
Which is goat. You are the goat of goat means going off against trans people. Going off about. About trans people.
- [39:49]
B
Yeah.
- [39:50]
A
Which is, like, I think helps serve. I. I'll say this about it, which is, like, when I watched the special the first time, I. This made me cry, this moment, for a few reasons, but one, it's so immense, a person doing this. Like, knowing the platform that it's going on, knowing you're doing in Radio City, the venue so associated with him. But, like, partly because I know you and partly because I just know the situation, and then I know anyone around our age has a certain sort of reverence for Dave that I was like, this is a person ultimately saying, I love comedy. This is what I hope comedy can look like. It's not like, I hate Dave Chappelle, which was not the message of it ever. So it made me emotional as a person who clearly loves comedy, who I feel like, feels a similar thing, which is, like, my goal is not to never be able to watch Dave Chappelle ever again. The goal is, like, hopefully, can they listen to the situation like this?
- [40:37]
B
Yeah. But people don't get that.
- [40:39]
A
Yeah.
- [40:40]
B
And so what followed was a barrage of unsavory articles and just, like, just a lot of hate. But I'm not on Twitter like that. And I didn't realize in that moment, like, how transphobic and homophobic and misogynistic people are. Like, I knew. I know. But I'm like, oh, wow. I'm, like, getting it. And I'm a type of bitch. Like, I don't like drunk drama. I don't like, mess, but I will stand up for what's right. And, yeah, I mean, I. I said what I said, and I would, like, love to talk to Dave about it.
- [41:24]
A
Yeah. Have you heard from other comedians? Did you hear anything about Dave?
- [41:29]
B
No. I mean, people were like, people. I mean, there was, like, a handful of comedians are just like, are you okay? Because I see you getting tagged in a lot of, like, stuff. Because, like, people will always go to, like, she's fat. She's not funny. It's just like, okay, okay. Christian, dad of six. Like, how's the soccer game? I'm so used to that anyways. But I think I was just. I know that I was just really disappointed by how people were just like, you can't say anything. You can't say. And I'm just like, do you realize how dangerous that is? That people could. People, like, people could say things here, but we can't disagree with them. Yeah, that's a very dangerous place. And the bigger picture is that's what we're going through, like, everywhere. You know, it's.
- [42:12]
A
It's crazy to be like, you can't. A person like, you can. You can say, you comedian can say anything on stage except for criticizing the most famous comedian on earth.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah. I remember when I saw you at Padma's game night. I don't remember what you said, but you're like, how you doing? I was like, ah, I've been better. You're like, oh, yeah, because you went after, like, the most popular comedian in the world. I was like, yeah, yeah, I guess. Or something along those lines.
- [42:35]
A
Yeah. Well, at first I was, I was telling you how I like the special, but it came up.
- [42:38]
B
But that's like what I remember. I'm like.
- [42:43]
A
Just not that many comedians have stands like an army like he does online. But like, it reminded me of in your Netflix 15 minute set. Like, you have the joke about no one wants to see your dick. And it's like you say Louis ck Which I imagine there are people in comedy being like, yeah, you can talk about me too on stage, but you shouldn't name the person in comedy most associated with it. And I think beyond the morality of it, it's. It is bad art to speak vaguely. Like, if you did this speech before Dave, you're like, okay, that's like a fine moment, but when you say it, the thing comes alive. And I think it reflects who you are as a comedian that you. That next level is more difficult. It's more difficult to be the comedian who does that. Yes, but you did that. And that's part of a testament to the work that you're trying to do.
- [43:30]
B
Thank you. I. I'm not doing comedy to be popular. I don't think it's a safe space to. I don't think it's a safe. I don't think it's a good thing or the right thing to treat people like they cannot be held accountable. That's really dangerous. Really dangerous for everybody. All that attitude is why priests can get away. What they get away with. Why we have a convicted felon in the White House. Like, we have to start Speak up. And I was really inspired by Hannibal Baress, my friend Hannibal, like, back in the day, what was it like 10 years ago when he said some about Cosby on stage, I'm like, yeah, yeah. Because no one's believing women. Someone say something.
- [44:13]
A
Yeah.
- [44:13]
B
And so I will be that person. But I'm also gonna make it funny and take home a check.
- [44:17]
A
Yeah. Because also a joke cuts through, like. Yeah, right. It's like, it's not. It's not like Hannibal Burst was a reporter. Hannibal Bursa was just saying a thing. Thing offhand. But it was in a funny enough context that it just sort of like it was just a set. Like how many. It was just a set he was doing in, like, Philadelphia, I guess. So that's part of like. But truly, it's like a joke can cut through in a way that just like saying the facts didn't. I think that's part of it.
- [44:41]
B
Yeah.
- [44:42]
A
And so what that moment, what I like about it is it fits into sort of the entire picture of what you're trying to do, includes, like, with what you're trying to do with your show. And I want to talk a little bit about survival of the thickest, but I want to back up a little bit to, like 2018. You get the Netflix 15 minute set and, like, sort of everything has really been up since then. Can you talk about, like, what your career looked like then and how you're feeling about it before the moment where, like, if you would get opportunities, what did you make of those? How did you feel about those opportunities? How did you feel about how your career is going at that point? Because you get your first special, like 20, 20 years in or something like that.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah. I don't know. It always. It. Life has always felt like I'm gonna, like, take my own way to get somewhere anyways. And I would much rather be a slow simmer than hot and fast. And so when people ask me questions like, how do I make money? I'm like, get good first. Can you go anywhere on a lineup and just destroy Monster truck? You know what I mean? Violate Tickle. And I remember 2018. Our surrogate was pregnant. I was filming or like, just booked First Wives Club. I was about to film that. And then, like, always be my. Maybe I was like, in Canada. I was in Canada. I was in Vancouver for that with Allie. And so there was this thing that happened when I was like, after five years of ivf, pumping myself up with hormones, and all those hormones are, like, just raging in my body. But, like, when my surrogate was pregnant, I was like, oh, my God, I can, like, actually relax. But I still had, like, this chip and this edge. Because even though, like, I had a really loving community and a lot of friends and family. I still felt very lonely and just I had no one to talk to to understand what I was going through. And so I would like, take it out and auditions where I'm like, can I do a pass for me? And then I would just, like, go off on a fucking tangent. And sometimes I would cry, and they're like, why are you crying? I'm like, I don't know. It's just a button. Ok. Feeling feelings. And so that's when I really start to book stuff because I was, like, raw and ready and not giving a fuck. And I'm like. Like walking into a room and just having people know that they can't fuck with you I think is very powerful. And people are attracted to it, which is good for me because that's what I got. And, yeah, I, like, truly did not give a fuck. I really was just doing stuff for me. And this was, like, years and years and years of trying to be the nice person in a. Oh, no, you can go ahead of me. You go. And she's just, like, bending over backwards and forward, like, for everyone. And so 2018 is when I really started not giving a real fuck. And then proper anxiety and panic attacks about being outside of my body, hoping that the surrogate is taking care of my twins that are growing. And then I welcomed those twins in 2019, and I was like, oh. You know, Jordan, Carlos told me a long time ago, when you become a parent, you have to parent yourself. And I didn't. I, like, for. I was like, don't be hungover. What does that mean? Like, like Gatorade in Advil. And it was like, oh, okay. These people, you have to explain yourself and your decisions, and they're looking at you. And I remember my mom really wanted me to get our kids baptized. And the godmothers that I chose were longtime friends of mine, and they were both gay. And she was like, absolutely not. And I was like, oh, absolutely. Like, if we're all God's children, then let's take a ride. And so standing up, like, if I can stand up to my mom, then I can stand up to, like, Dave Chappelle. Like, at the end of the day, we're just people. Do you know what I mean? And we have to do what's right for us. For us. And we have to say the thing, because I cannot sleep unless I say the thing. And, you know, looking at my children, you know, there's like, this meme that goes around every pride. If you don't like gay people don't have children, you know. And I'm like, yeah, that's what it is. Like, we just have to help these little souls in the world be the best versions of themselves. Leave it better how we found it. What are we doing? So. Oh my God. What was the question?
- [49:01]
A
Just what is your life pre. Pre breakthrough? What is your career? Like, how do you feel about it?
- [49:06]
B
Yeah, I was, I was in a dark place, but like would pull myself out.
- [49:09]
A
You mentioned Always be my maybe. And I think it's, it's, it's useful because you and Ally are a specific group of people that like were working in comedy. People knew of you, but like where audience was was not where you're performing because just the nature of. They might not go out to comedy clubs, assuming a person like you might be there.
- [49:28]
B
Yeah.
- [49:28]
A
And then you're put on this platform and those people are like, I've been waiting my entire life for a comedian to be like you or like Ally. And I was curious that right before you had that moment, you were shooting Always Be my maybe, which was like her the next step of it, which is. There's something really poetic about that. Do you have a story about shooting that that was instructive of how you then approached her career going forward?
- [49:48]
B
Yeah. You know, Ali had like, her, she had I think like a three year old and a baby at the time and she was doing rewrites and she was still jogging every morning and just working with like love like Nanashka Khan, who was also a writer director and just working with friends and having a very diverse set. And I was like, this is what it should be. And I was so again inspired. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And she kept saying, you're gonna be huge. You're gonna be huge. I'm like, girl, I'm just trying to be working. I'm trying to have that thick calm in the bank account. So I'm not worried. She's like, no, you're gonna be huge. Just like, keep going. I was like, where else am I going? Yeah, you know what I mean? She's like giving me like all this, like, really stage advice. I'm just like, for what? I'm fine. And I was like, oh my God. I guess I was not fine. I was out here. But I remember having a bit of a panic attack while putting on the pregnancy belly because everybody was so nice to me and they really thought I was pregnant. They're like, you look so good pregnant. Did you, did you ever think about having kids because I didn't tell anybody about the surrogate because, you know, you don't want to tell anyone until, like, they're born. And I was like, oh, yeah, one day. And it was one of those things where I just had to figure out how to put on a happy face and keep it moving. But it also taught me to not assume. I don't assume if somebody is trying to have a kid or not. I don't assume that somebody wants to be married or not. I don't assume that somebody understands where they might be on the spectrum of fucking anything. It's just like, are you a good person? Do you need a Zyrtec? That's where we're at right now.
- [51:27]
A
Yeah. So Survival of the Thickets depicts a different New York than I think has been on camera before. Even if you look at background actors or like the. Can you tell a story or a memory or something that captures your version of New York and then sort of how that version of New York is the one you wanted put on screen.
- [51:47]
B
Yeah. I mean, I'm from Jersey and I remember like sneaking out and driving my 76 Camaro to New York with my Puerto Rican and black friends and Haitian friends, just like, you know, parking, like, definitely in a place I shouldn't have been parked and going to the limelight and, you know, seeing the queens and the club kids and the hoes and the hoes in training and like the wannabe, like hip hop heads and. And that was when I was like 15, 16. And then when I finally got to live there when I was in my 20s, I was like, this is so cool. Like, what a low budget sex in the city. Like, we don't have cosmos. We have a whole picture of. I don't know what the fuck this is. Diabetes. Like, you know, and so there was always like the Puerto Rican Day parade and. And the Caribbean carnival and the Eastern Parkway and, you know, even in Jersey, having family in Brooklyn and Queens and Staten island, we go on the weekends. I'm just like, there are so many different flags and smells and languages and nationalities that I'm just like, where is it? And why are these people always depicted as like a bank robber, you know, or, you know, and especially working in local news. I'm so tired of a perp walk or an athlete. I'm like, there's so much of us in between us, you know, black and brown communities. And so I'm just like, I'm so tired of seeing this narrative where we're either feared or a Fetish. And I'm just like, we're also just normal ass people that want to like, pay our rent, have a window with like on a tree lined block and keep it moving, you know what I mean? And, like, date someone who might call us back or whatever the fuck. And so I'm just like, where is that? How can I find it? And you know, I love tv. I love TV the way I love comedy. I don't mind watching it when it's bad too, because I like to see where people want to go.
- [53:38]
A
Yeah.
- [53:38]
B
You know, check back in five years or like, again. Wilson. Vince told me back in the day, you know, you learn from bad shows more than good shows. And I'm like, I use the same rule for TV too. I'm like, okay, that's why, that's, that's an inside joke. Because that's a wild choice.
- [53:57]
A
With the show. How do you balance your desire to depict the reality of living in these times with your desire to depict the world you want to see? Right there's. The show has a balance of those two. How do you see it? Are there examples of like, okay, I want to put this on screen while also acknowledging the reality of how this might be hard living. I was thinking about how Peppermint, the trans drag queen has a wedding this season.
- [54:26]
B
Yeah.
- [54:27]
A
So, yeah. How do you think about that before.
- [54:29]
B
We start a writer's room? I just, like, have wish fulfillment things that I'd love to do. I mean, like, I've. It's based off, you know, essays in my book. But the main theme is like, the themes. Right. Like, that's the main thing, like the mission statement. So, like, while we can pick, like, little moments that have happened, like, I really did get gum stuck on a guy's dick in the backseat of a taxi. Gonzalez and Gonzalez. Those, those daiquiris are strong. And that Dominican guy shouldn't have gave me gum before he asked me to suck his dick. So that's not on me, that's on him. Yes, I'm victim shaming. But we found him an ER that was open. Okay. I'm sure he made it back to Punta Cana. Okay. But also, it's his fault. Why is he wearing sweatsocks with patent leather shoes? It was all wrong, but it was also right. The point is my kids are here, by the way. Awesome. But wait, what was the question?
- [55:22]
A
How do you balance trying to depict reality and depict what you want?
- [55:27]
B
So that's the great thing about a writer's room and, you know, having, like, amazing showrunners that know how to build story. So I know what I want to see. I know what I want to play. I know, like, you know, whether it's something hilarious or, like, sincere and important, like, I already have those things going on. And then, like, that's the main thing I ask for from my amazing boutique writing team, too, because I'm like, you gotta live a life and you gotta have opinions, and you gotta know what New York is like, or at least some sort of, like, city center, you know, because it's, like, shared space. And then when we talk about all the things that have happened to us or that, like, we want to happen or that we would love to see, you know, we. I love my showrunner who can, like, funnel it into, like. But how does this affect Mavis? Yeah, it's funny. The first season was just, like, a lot of big ideas and set pieces and jokes, but also, like, a lot of heart, and it was just, like, all instinct. And then the second season, I was like, ooh, I could see it before it even happens. And that was, like, really fucking magical. And now with season three, I'm just like, I can see it. I can do it. I'm like, I want to get in there. Like, do I want to direct an episode? I'm just like, like, let's just push ourselves to, like, do the hard thing, because that's what makes it, like, better and more fun.
- [56:48]
A
You used to tell the story of how you decided to do standup, and people would ask you, you should be a comedian. Comedian. And you say, like, I don't want to be a comedian. And you say, I like making money and I like having sex. And comedians don't make money and they don't have sex or their sex is bad or something like that.
- [57:04]
B
Yeah, they always complain.
- [57:06]
A
And I did think this show, we are talking about money, but this show is the comedy of a person who wants to have sex that is good. Not a show where it's like, oh, sex is an opportunity to make jokes.
- [57:16]
B
Yes.
- [57:17]
A
Yeah, I know. I want to talk about, like, how do you make comedy out of good sex?
- [57:21]
B
Oh, my goodness. How do I make comedy out of good sex? What a good question. What. Okay, Barbara Walters. I don't know if you make comedy out of good sex. I. I think.
- [57:33]
A
Or comedy that has that in it. How do you. How. Allow space for it?
- [57:37]
B
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like the moment before, the moment after, because I think seeing a size 18, 20 body actually be loved down as revolutionary somehow. So, you know, the first time my character Mavis, has sex with Luca in episode three, in season one, she gets gum stuck in the stick in the back seat of a taxi. And she's like, well, this is a bad day. He's like, it can get better. And it did. And then in episode three, it's the hone episode, I suppose, for season two, my character's learning how to, like, be. To have casual sex, to ask for what she wants. Because she's an adult now, she could send food back in a restaurant. So she's like, I'm really on my voice. And there's definitely, like, you know, moments where it's like, oh, you say the wrong thing, or something could slip out of one of your holes. Like a bot. Like, you know, like a queef or something.
- [58:37]
A
Sure.
- [58:37]
B
Not like. Like the answer to a test.
- [58:42]
A
Got it. Good.
- [58:43]
B
Great. Yeah. But I don't know. I just feel like good sex is good sex. It's like good food. But something could happen. You could, like, choke on that food or have it stuck between your teeth, you know? Did I answer the question? Yeah, I think so.
- [58:59]
A
It's a. It's an abstract question, so it really is. It just seemed purposeful, considering that is part of. Again, it's. You're depicting how the show.
- [59:08]
B
Yeah.
- [59:09]
A
You know, and it's different. So preparing for this, I was. I had a thought.
- [59:14]
B
Oh, my God.
- [59:15]
A
About your work and sort of what makes you distinct from most comedians ever. Almost any comedian I can think of. And. Which is this. Which is more than. I think almost any comedian I can think of right now. You allow the audience to love you.
- [59:29]
B
Oh, wow.
- [59:30]
A
Like, I think a lot of comedians, to different degrees, comedy is a defense mechanism. Comedy is a way to keep a distance. They might let you love their Persona or you love their act. I think a lot of comedians, but most part, they do not want to give the audience the opportunity to do that, because that is more dangerous, that's more vulnerable. To be allowed to be loved, it's trusting the audience.
- [59:52]
B
Yeah.
- [59:54]
A
Do you feel that? Where does that come from? How did you allow yourself the freedom to be open to your audience in that way?
- [60:04]
B
Are you gonna make me cry?
- [60:05]
A
We'll see.
- [60:10]
B
I might. I think it's just a good old. Okay, here comes. I think it's a good old being the person that you never had growing up at work, in college, on screen. Yeah. So showing up for people the way someone hasn't shown up for you.
- [60:38]
A
Can you remember a moment or show where it felt like you. Your audience, and you really had each other. You were there for them, and they were the audience.
- [60:49]
B
Both specials feel like. And I mean, I was even on the bank. I was even on the bank. I was even on the phone with the bank this morning trying to get my card, because of my wallet, trying to get my card turned on. And the lady was like, bootay. And I was like, it's Buteau. Like, bureau with the. Like, bureau with the T. And she's like, oh, my God. Like that comedian. I was like, I am that comedian. She's like, sis, I'm from Jersey. I'm a big girl. And it's like, what? And so, like, just to have this key all the time was just like, that's, to me, really special. And that just, that's. I mean, I'm gonna keep going anyways because I'm a crazy bitch. But, like, that just like, fills me in a way that I, like, I don't have the vocabulary for. And so, you know, I mean, that's the thing that matters. It's like, yeah, making people laugh, but giving them, like, a light when they've had a very dark time. Like, DMs from people who are like, I didn't think I was worthy of love. Now I'm wearing color. This is the first time I've left since my husband's cancer came back. I'm able to go to a show with my non binary child. Like, it's so. It's so insane that it's really just that easy to love. And you still can be funny. Like, you still can make money and be funny and make the millions and millions of dollars and fly on your private jets everywhere you got to go, you know, and still make people feel good. And so that's like, it really has become my life's purpose. But not in a way where I'm like, you know, what's that guy's name? Tony? What's his name?
- [62:27]
A
Robbins.
- [62:28]
B
Robbins. Like, hey, you know what I mean? It's just like, what's up, lady at Citibank? I hope you got your good bra on, sis. Leave that wire at home.
- [62:42]
A
So now it's time for the final segment of the show. It's called the laughing round. It's like a lightning round. Laughing because it's comedy. Do you have a favorite joke? Joke, Like a street joke? Dad joke?
- [62:51]
B
Oh, my God. Yeah. So my dad used to tell this joke at dinner parties. My wife always wants to talk to me after sex, and I will if there's a phone around. And then I found out, like, Decades later, it was Ronnie Dangerfield. Yeah, but when you say it with a Haitian accent, it really hits different.
- [63:10]
A
That's a very different cadence.
- [63:11]
B
It hits different. It's still, you know.
- [63:15]
A
Is there a joke from another comedian you wish you could steal? A joke where it's a you that you're like, I wish that was mine. I can have it. You're not stealing it in a stealing way if it's another dimension where you.
- [63:25]
B
Have, oh, my God, who do I quote? I mean, Jody Wasserman had this joke when I first started, which was, like, amazing. And it was about her dating. And, like, this is back in the day. So it was like answering machines. It's like, what are we living in the Wire on hbo? And. And she would say she would call someone, they wouldn't call her back. And then she'd call him back the next day and be like, hello, I'm returning my phone call. And I don't. Just the way she did. I think she still does that joke. And it's like, yeah, it's like. It's like pancakes that ihop. But actually, like, there's this joke from Chappelle back in the day where he's just like. He's like a threesome. He's like, two women and one man. Love. So much love. I'm paraphrasing. And then he's just like, two men and one woman. She's being turned around like a rotisserie chicken. And I was like, I love sex. I love rotisserie chicken. Right on point. But also Bernie Mac, you know, I'm talking about his, like, nephew getting cookies and milk now that I have kids like him downstairs. Milk and cookies. Like, it's just so good.
- [64:41]
A
Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian, living or dead, you'd be willing to share?
- [64:46]
B
I remember doing the Joan Rivers tribute this year. Last year, what's Space for Time? And my husband actually found Joan Rivers's desk.
- [65:00]
A
Jones.
- [65:01]
B
Joan's desk at. I think it was Housing Works when she passed away. And I was, like, just, like, about to write. Well, I guess it was, like, in transit. And then I was, like, trying to write this book, and I was having a hard time. He's like, I know you love Joan. Here's the desk. And, like, I like the energy. There was a great juju. I still have the desk. I wrote the book on the desk. But I remember talking to Melissa Rivers, and I'm just like, what's it like hearing jokes about you? Because, like, my kids are Gonna watch this special one day. And I'm like, what's it like? And she's like, mom always said it's a family business. Buck up. I was like, oh, fuck.
- [65:37]
A
That's right.
- [65:38]
B
Heard. So that was, like, a very lovely interaction that I will, like, never forget.
- [65:42]
A
What's the best advice you've taken?
- [65:45]
B
God, I think I've, like, kind of peppered it throughout, but, like, don't tell yourself no and go into rooms where you're the worst. Don't worry about the money. It will come. I. No one ever told me to trust my instinct. No one ever told me that.
- [66:02]
A
Well, you already did. Not even tell you that.
- [66:04]
B
Yeah, not even my mom. My mom was like, work against it. It's not polite. And I'm like, this feels. I'm like, I have an ulcer in the fifth grade, girl. What's going on?
- [66:13]
A
So this is a. We're gonna do a Mount Rushmore of Mount Rushmores, which is four Mount Rushmores. Okay, so four different Mount Rushmores, but because it's Mount Rushmore sports, so.
- [66:22]
B
Oh, my God.
- [66:23]
A
Do you have a Mount Rushmore of comedians?
- [66:27]
B
No, we don't.
- [66:29]
A
Okay. Do you have a Mount Rushmore of drag queens?
- [66:33]
B
Yes.
- [66:34]
A
Can you share?
- [66:35]
B
Can I do a mix?
- [66:37]
A
You can do whatever you want.
- [66:38]
B
I don't. I don't.
- [66:38]
A
I just ask the questions. You can answer them however you want.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah, I don't know how I feel about this. This is so. Because I just feel like there's too many.
- [66:45]
A
The four. First four that come to your mind. Four. And be like, don't worry, we won't be mad at you. You can create a boundary so it's a specific context so that. That you're like, well, it has to be these four. It can't be these four.
- [67:00]
B
Okay. RuPaul, Wanda Sykes, Prince, Whitney Houston.
- [67:07]
A
So what is that? Wait, that. That's just a Mount Rushmore of people.
- [67:11]
B
Yeah, the people, like, artists that have done good.
- [67:15]
A
Do you have a Mount Rushmore's or four favorite words to say in Dutch? Your husband is Dutch?
- [67:21]
B
Yes. Oh, IK helvenjo, which means I love you.
- [67:29]
A
Four favorite neighborhoods in New York City. Mount Rushmore of neighborhoods.
- [67:32]
B
Four.
- [67:33]
A
Four neighborhoods in New York City.
- [67:34]
B
Oh, God. Oh, God. No, it's really just about Brooklyn. Honey. What are you talking about?
- [67:39]
A
It's different neighborhoods in Brooklyn. You just go down.
- [67:41]
B
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay. Bed Stuy, Brooklyn Heights, Clinton Hill, Coney Island.
- [68:00]
A
What is a joke? That. That didn't work, but you'll go to your grave being like, that's funny. Everyone was wrong.
- [68:05]
B
No, no, that doesn't exist. No, it doesn't. It's like, girl. Yeah, Put it down.
- [68:13]
A
What is the best time you bombed?
- [68:15]
B
I'm trying to think of a joke that, like. But I'm really tired and trying to think of the joke now.
- [68:18]
A
All right, well, you can take time. We have only one question left. Which is the best time you bomb. So take as much time as you want.
- [68:24]
B
No, I don't remember.
- [68:25]
A
All right, yeah, we'll cut the. No one will even know I asked the question, so it doesn't matter.
- [68:29]
B
That is hilarious.
- [68:30]
A
It's how editing works.
- [68:31]
B
No, but keep it in. This is nice.
- [68:33]
A
Let's just have this moment where you're thinking.
- [68:34]
B
Yeah, kind of where I, like, are you guys. Can. Can you smell that? My brain just farted. Bombing best.
- [68:42]
A
What is the best time you bombed?
- [68:43]
B
Best time I bombed was like. I mean, it was just pretty much for, like, two years at colleges. Jenny Mean. But it's like, if. It's sort of like if a tree falls in the woods, like, who knows? Those. Those. Those kids don't remember. Just only, like, the three, like, people that hired me who, like, still follow me.
- [69:05]
A
The idea that there's a generation of people who are now just working professionals that have no idea that you bombed in front of them or be.
- [69:12]
B
Yeah, they're like, Kim Coles was wild. She was really dirty.
- [69:18]
A
Thank you so much.
- [69:19]
B
Thank you. Oh, my God, this was so fun.