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Support for this show comes from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job or.
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Are you stuck in one you've outgrown.
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Or never wanted in the first place? Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying, but are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me.
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Help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated.
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Go to Strawberry Me unstuck to claim.
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A special offer avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app download today. It reminded me of something that Caleb Herron said to me recently, which is.
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B
Iron man, is this my camera?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Fucking save us, Caleb Heron. Seriously, fucking save us, dude.
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A
This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer at Vulture and author of comedy book. My guest today is Patton Oswald. We discuss his new standup album AI and his perspective on the current state of nerds. Also find out how Patton's legendary joke about the KFC famous bowl from 20 years ago predicted where the culture is at right now. So here is Patton Oswalt. I am here with Patton Oswalt. Thank you for joining me.
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B
Thanks for having me.
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A
It's good to see you. What's the funniest thing that happened to you this week?
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B
Well, I'm staying and I don't know when this airs.
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A
It's the forever this week. It's a comedian. It's a comedian's this week.
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B
Oh, no, no, no. Okay. I'm staying in a very stylish hotel in New York, but like painfully art designed. And I was trying to figure out where the do not disturb sign was for my door. Cause I wanted to sleep in this morning. But the hotel that I'm staying at, it took me a while to realize outside each little room there's a little shelf and in the room there's a rock. And the rock either has not now or the other side has now. And. And it was like I was in this weird escape room where I had to put together, oh, wait, if I don't wanna be disturbed, I take the rock that says not now and I put it on the shelf outside. And the shelf, they don't feature the shelf, it's very kinda, it doesn't really pop in the wall that it's in. And it took me like I had to. And I was so close to calling down and saying, hey, where's my do not disturb sign? And so I was spared making the operator go, okay, you see the rock? That' the table next to your bed and it says not now. Put, there's a little shelf. Go put that on. Like it, it is the weirdest. And I bet, listen, I've stayed in a lot of Ian Schrager hotels. I've seen in a lot of boutique hotels where they try to be really clever. But this was a, this was like next level weird.
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A
It's, it's truly like Demolition Man.
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B
Oh my God. The three shells. Yeah, the three shells. You don't know about the rock. You don't know about the quiet rock. Cause also if that rock gets misinterpreted and someone is staying in that room and they're either watching something they don't like on TV or you know, and they just throw that thing. Cause it is a hefty, perfectly throwable rock. But I did leave the rock on the shelf outside my room.
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A
Well, hopefully it worked out.
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B
We'll find out. Maybe it was a lie.
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A
I actually assumed you were maybe going to say the fact that you were suspended from Blue sky for a few days.
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B
Oh well, I was.
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A
For those who weren't following, can you explain what happened?
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B
Yeah, here's what happened. Megyn Kelly went on her show and basically defended pedophilia or she tried to. And this isn't just on Megan. The New York Times has now done it and all these people, people are finessing pedophilia. And what she said was so disgusting. And I maybe tweeted something violent and they said this does not meet with community rules and they suspend. But they only suspended me for three days, which was nice. So like, and there was a thing like do you want to protest your suspension? I was like, you know what? I, I'll take the hit. Like I, that's the closest I'll ever get to like one of the, the deep soldiers on the wire going no, I'll do the time, I'll do it. That's fine. Like, like that was my We Bay moment of like, yeah, I'll take all these murders. That's fine. Like I, I, I just refuse to protest it. Just yeah, fine. I cuz I, I again, we are at a point in, again we, if you would. We're, we're finessing pedophilia what in the hell the is going on? This is a nightmare world. It's a nightmare world, isn't it?
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A
Yeah, that's pretty. It's. It's pretty staggering. Just all of it. The fact of that clip existing, you being on Blue sky to then say something, then being all of it. You're sort of. This is now, this is sort of even worse than Demolition Man.
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B
It is, it is. It is crazy. And, and again, the. You can, you can share that. If I had shared the clip of her defending or fin. I'm sorry and I'm going to get this right. She's not defending pedophilia. She's finessing it going, well, what the. Could you imagine like a year ago if you were hanging out with someone and they said, Well, I mean, 50, you would immediately go, shut the. Get the fuck away from me. Are you nuts? And now there are again, serious publications are. Well, what does it really mean? I mean, I don't. I. Oh my God. Like there's. I know maybe I should have been a little funnier about it, but every now and then something is so awful that you just are like, I can't. One of the realest things on stage. There's a comedian named Tom Papa and there's a couple of his bits where he just embraces the fact that he's overwhelmed by what he does not understand. And there's something like it would make it less seem, but in a way that makes the bit even funnier when he gets more. He's like, I don't eat. I don't know what. You know, there are people who don't eat bread, they don't eat. Like, he doesn't even have a punchline because the frustration is the punchline. Then every now and then I almost. I don't want to say it's a comedian's duty. I hate them. People are like the comedians, man. We're the truth tellers. We're the only samurai. There's no comedian's duty. We got it. And comedians got into this business cause we want to do shirk duty. But every now and then it is very, I think, honest and helpful when a comedian just goes, I don't know, I can't even make a joke about this. I'm just gonna be disgusted. I know I'm supposed to be cool and amused, but I'm just disgusted.
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A
The thing about the comedian's duty thing is here's the predicament that we are in, which is comedian, no comedian. I've talked to And I've talked to a lot. Comedians want the responsibility of journalists. However, over the course of, specifically my lifetime, over the last 40 years, trust in journalism, because of the corporatization of journalism and social media has been fully lost. People do not trust journalists anymore. It's, it's. I think it's. It was like 80 people trust journalists in like, 1980, and now the number is like 30 something. What? You're the wild.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then you have this situation where people do, for whatever reason, trust the.
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B
Comedians they trust the comedians they trust. But again, that's just another form of the bent journalism and the fracturing of journalism. I mean, and to a lot of comedians, detriment. They just decide to embrace the fact that, oh, no, yeah, I am a journalist. Until they get pushback and go, wait, no, I'm a comedian. So you want all the privileges and none of the responsibilities. And, and it. Here's what, like, I'm, I'm nostalgic for, like, when Jon Stewart and Bill Maher and people would say, you know, I get my news from watching you. And they would go, you shouldn't. Yeah, you should not be doing that. You should be seeking out. And if you don't trust whatever media that you have available, find other stuff, but don't go to us. Like, that's gone now. Yeah, that's. They were there going, I'm here to supplement this. I am a. I'm a really. I'm a nice bracing glass of wine. But a glass of wine shouldn't be your dinner. You know, you need to get. Get some meat and vegetables in you. So that was really interesting that even that's gone now, you know, and again, I think one of the few people who still kind of do that is John Oliver, who, you know, because he's. He's also critiquing the media itself and urges you to go watch this PBS Frontline thing. Please go watch this. Please go read. Like, he's trying to do what he can, but he also is wildly responsible and does the research and then does the jokes with it.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think it is funny. Even when you're describing it, you're like, the fact that at minimum we have comedians going, like, please believe these journalists. But I think there's the thing of, like, John Oliver probably employs more researchers than a lot. Most local news. A lot of local newspapers.
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B
No, yeah, exactly. Because local newspapers have been gutted. I'm not putting down the local media. A lot of them, they've been gutted and they're doing whatever the hell they can. And I love that John Oliver spotlights small local newspapers and TV stations that are doing the work for however hard that is. Like, they clearly are out on a better crusade right now. But again, there's a lot of comedians who have decided to overlap with the news or at least especially in a right wing way, because there's a very easy audience there and. But then they don't want. They're like, oh, I'm just a comedian, man. The minute they get some. And by the way, that's the other thing too. If you want to be. Another part of journalism is to a responsible version of journalists is I reported this and it turned out to be wrong. And I'm letting you know they don't come on and go, ah, come on, man, I'm just a hair dude. You can't get. You know, so that's a really scary. Yeah, because we're in right now.
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A
Would not comedians have to. Or sort of this sort of comedian or whatever is in a. It's a sort of shell game of if anytime they're wrong, they have to keep on moving. The. The goalposts.
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B
I've never understood because also we're in this really sad culture right now of no apologies, no regrets. And it's like, no, you apologize. That. That's the most manly, secure thing to do is go, oh, I was. Now I know better. Like I said this thing, but then I learned better and I sorry, I didn't know. But people are like, no, I'm never apologizing.
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A
Yeah, I think about it that it's sort of like a monkey paw wish for comedians where it's like, for years.
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B
Comedians, I always said we wish we could be taken more seriously. And we wish for that on a monkey's paw because boy, did we get our wish. Oh my God.
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A
I mean, I personally feel that where it's like, it does feel like comedians like, oh, people take it seriously. Then you ever write a negative review about one comedian and it's like, how dare you? It's like that was kind of the whole. That's what being taken seriously means.
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B
Exactly. And also to look at your body of work and look at things where it's like, hey, you said this and now you've changed and they bulk at that. Where I like embrace the fact that there's things I said on my early albums, statements I made about marriage and shout and here's how. And then they're completely different on other albums, later albums. Cause I changed and I learned better. I Knew better. I used certain terms in my early albums that now I'm like, I didn't know better, and now I do, and I'm sorry about that. And I, you know, like. But this weird doubling down on we're gonna say the R word, it's like, that's what you're fighting for, is to say this. That's what you're going to the Wire for.
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A
I was thinking about that with I, you know, preparing for this. I listened to a lot of your old albums and, like, so much of it holds up, and I. This is not to hold you accountable for the thing.
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B
You just know not all of it does.
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A
Yeah, but. I mean. But holds up.
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B
But no one's stuff does.
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A
But the point is not even, like, holds up. Like, let's put aside the words for a second. Like, the quality of it could appeal to a person with certain sensibilities. Yeah, right. And then it's like. But that said person, if they went back, they're like, oh, I kept on getting distracted because he, you know, he said the F. Slur. He said the R word or whatever. And as a person who doesn't do it anymore, I wonder if it would be instructive to the people who think it's important now to how you now think about, like, oh, I wish I didn't do that, because then my. Then more people could have listened to my material longer. Or I do wish it for the time. You know, that's the thing that I would.
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B
I don't. It's weird. I don't wish that I hadn't done it, because I like the fact that now there's a record of this is how things were back then. And even someone like me, who thought of himself as very progressive and very enlightened, still had a long way to go. What confuses me is that people, comedians, should be always fighting. We should absolutely be fighting against censorship. But if you're fighting against censorship and more freedom of speech, shouldn't you be fighting to move forward, but to go back to. No, I want to say the R words. Like, you're fighting for something in the. That's like, I want to bring the horse and buggy back. It's like, what are you fighting for right now? That, like, there needs to be some progress.
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A
Yeah, yeah, forward.
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B
I don't know how that should be.
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A
Fighting for more words, not fighting to bring back old words, hypothetically.
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B
And also the idea that, again, if you're a comedian and a word becomes unacceptable, shouldn't that be a challenge? Like, the Whole point, all great comedy comes from getting over obstacles and getting around restrictions. These people who say, I want no restrictions, I want to say whatever I want. Well, then you're making comedy boring. It's like playing a video game on God mode with unlimited ammo. Like, part of the fun is that you could screw up or you got to find a clever way around it. I mean, no one is darker or edgier than someone like Anthony Jeselnik or still. I don't know if you've seen Emo Phillips lately. He just over. That dude is dark. But he finds a way to get away with it where you don't realize what he's getting away with. These other people are like, no, I want the easiest, the absolute easiest way to say this where it takes no effort or cleverness on my part. It's like, that's not fun. That's not what comedy is.
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A
Yeah. I should also note, for people that are not familiar, it's not like you were just saying slurs in many ways. Like.
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B
No, that's like in my early albums. My first album is just the N word, I think like 2,000 times.
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A
But like, if you look at the, like, intention of your jokes, ultimately they all were. And, like, there are some, like, ironic uses of it or some where you're doing satire.
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B
And, you know, there were a lot of us going, especially back then. We were trying to make fun of racism and homophobia by temporarily personifying that character to show you how bad it sounds. But a lot of times what we didn't realize was especially we were giving the alt right a blueprint for how to go. It's just ironic. Raise it like, oh, shit, we kind of did that. Well, oh, well, okay, now I know better.
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A
It made me think all this is sort of. Have you heard of the book Amusing Ourselves to Death or.
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B
Yeah, Neil Postman.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. So, like, the politics in this does feel like he was talking about just television. Like, he had no idea the Internet would be even worse, which is sort of like all times pleasure seeking in terms of like. And to get your news, it has to be funny. Like now all news has to be funny.
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B
Every. You should be this thing of I need to be entertained every second of the day is really fatal. And it seems like there's a lot. Again, it's always the next generation that pushes back. There are these kids now that are pushing back where they're like trying to. I think they call it like raw dogging reality where they sit and are bored for two hours and they time it like, I'm gonna sit and not have constant simulation going on, which makes your brain stronger. All great comedy came from us being bored and going, okay, how do I get over this boredom?
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A
Do you ever worry that being able to write comedy about political issues is harmful? Or, like, in terms of, like, oh, it's distracting people from. I think there's a question of, like, should people be mad? Right. It's like, should they not feel catharsis? Because catharsis, especially now, ends up being part of the, like, womb of reality. People can be in.
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B
Forgot who said this, but somebody pointed this out. It was either on Threads or Blue Sky. Like, no, comedians making fun of Nazis probably won't help to fight Nazis. But people that are out there that are actually feeling threatened, a trans person, a Jewish person that sees that there are other people out there going, this is bullshit. I'm sure that helps them get through their day. So, yeah, I don't want us. I don't want comedians thinking that we're Indiana Jones out there, you know, fighting the Nazi horde. But we're certainly. I hope that we're giving comfort to people that right now feel like maybe they don't have any allies or they don't have any help.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, if that makes any sense.
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A
Yeah, I think it makes sense in terms of creating an in group of some sort that hypothetically bonds.
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B
I mean, I just. I don't. There's always been, especially people that are, like, kind of Nazi adjacent or just flat out Nazis. They're fascinated with comedy because they're not funny and it drives them so they want. There's a great line by Clive James where he was like that, talking about the Anschluss in Vienna and how there were, you know, these guys in the cafes that would just sit there riffing and people would buy them drinks and they would just be boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And he said a lot of guys standing in those crowds had armbands in their pockets and they were waiting for the signal, and they were jealous. They wanted their jokes to be the funny ones. And they got their wish in a horrible way. You know, they got their wish like, well, my jokes are the funny ones by default because we killed everyone. That's fun. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's. You know, it's weird how you mentioned. Because I remember. I remember reading Amusing Ourselves to Death. And then that led me to a book by Mark Crispin Miller called Boxed In. And that book really shaped a lot of my thoughts about the media and how the Media works on us and how we kind of passive aggressively demand stuff from the media. So as much as we can blame, well, the media's making us dumb. But there's part of us that demands that ease from the media. And look, if you're working some job and you're frigging exhausted and you want. You're like, I would like to be entertained, but everything shouldn't be entertainment.
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A
I bring this up. It reminds. So you have an album out called Black Coffee and Ice Water. And I wanted to available from download.
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B
On Audible right now. Which camera's mine? Where should I be looking? Hi.
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A
It opens in a very specific way. And so. Yeah, can you. I have questions about it. But first, can you just describe the opening for people?
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B
Yeah, I had. Well, I had just. I had done a bunch of shows in London this summer, and it was right when they were really cracking down on passports and people that were coming in. And there's this really funny comedian named Jenna Friedman who was questioned when she came back, she was in Europe or somewhere. And they said, oh, you're a comedian? What kind of like, do you do jokes about the administration? So there was that creepy, like, yeah. Oh, shh. Because we're also beyond. We're. We're at this point now, I think even people who support the current administration are. Can all admit there's nothing we can put past them at this point. Like, they will clearly just do. They'll try anything. Why not? So I. There was part. And I was kind of laughing about it too, but there was a part of me like, are they gonna. Here's the thing, though. Part of me was scared that, oh, my God, are they gonna pull me aside in the line and question me? Then there's the ego part of yourself that's like, of course they're gonna pull me aside. I mean, I'm a. I'm a huge. I'm dangerous. Of course they would grab me. There's every comedian that's always like, railing against censorship. Part of that is ego. Part of that is, of course they need to silence my voice. It's like, well, let's. Let's take a little breath there, buddy. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I. So I read a disclaimer and I. And basically what I'm saying is if everyone could tweet this out and get this on your socials describing the show where it's this completely garish, you know, pro Trump, pro right wing, you know, just. Let's just get that word out there. But I'm also making fun of my Ego and hubris that, yeah, I'm the new Lenny Bruce. Of course they will arrest me. It's like, my. My bits about Star wars are so harsh. Of course they're gonna. What do you. What's your problem with Jar Jar Binks? Like, they're not gonna. Yeah, just calm down.
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A
Patton, often I. I think of you as a comedian who won really hard during the Bush administration, the W. Bush administration. And yeah, as a person who's been there. Can you describe. Because at that time, I'm not sure if you had a joke where you called him a fascist, but I'm sure you use strong language because hyperbaric existed. But, like, how do you describe. How do you feel to people who are too young or whatever? How do you capture how it feels differently, especially as a comedian?
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B
Here's the thing. But I am not that I don't have the vista of synapses that some of the really brilliant political comedians do have. But the Bush administration was so blatant and so clanky and like, it was this. You know, it made Reagan look subtle, you know, and. And now the. The Trump administration makes the Bush administration, you know, look like the Carter years. I mean, it's so. So I think me commenting on the Bush, because I had never really done a lot of political stuff up to that point, but it was just like, this is so blatant that even someone, like, I can understand what is going on here. Like, I can't not say something. And also, it was so ridiculous and scary that that was my way to cope was to make jokes about it. I didn't know how else to cope with it. So it was a combination of things that made me go that way. And then it's interesting how people, you know, talk about. And then you went real quiet during Obama. It's like, no, I also did jokes about that, but what was amazing was those weren't. I wasn't as famous enough yet for those to get out there. I also made fun of Clinton, but that was in the 90s, when I wasn't even on TV. But the Obama years, for all the faults that I found with that administration, but he wasn't openly trying to destroy the country. So it's a much different thing that's going on. And that. What about ism is another way to smuggle in some really awful stuff. Well, I mean, he wore a tan jacket. You can't compare that with. This is insane.
- [24:01]
A
You know, in that opening section you mentioned, I believe it's paying a tribute or singing a song with the names of the insurrectionists.
- [24:08]
B
The insurrectionists.
- [24:10]
A
I won't name the person if you're uncomfortable, but for a time, you're in the same comedy scene as one insurrectionist.
- [24:17]
B
Oh, man. I don't want to talk about this. It's so depressing. I know who you're gonna say.
- [24:22]
A
Well, I don't have to say the name, but I'm just curious. Like, I think it's just sort of as a character portrait. I'm not, like, just sort of as an observer from afar. I didn't know if you like how it felt to see all of it, because it is. I mean, as a comedy fan, you're just like, you know, and so that's why I don't wanna say the name. So you don't. That becomes as big a thing. But I do think it is interesting if you're comfortable talking about that.
- [24:43]
B
But. Okay, let's talk about it in an even bigger sense. I think all of us have a friend or family member that we saw go down that rabbit hole and not come out. I had another comedian friend of mine from San Francisco, could not have been a more progressive, cool guy. And then a lot of us first moved out of San Francisco, and then he, I think, moved to the Midwest, where there weren't really any comedians around. And I'm still friends with his daughter, and she's. And he kind of went down the whole Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones thing, and I was like, what is going on? And she basically said, he didn't have anyone to hang out with. And those became his companions, and they are very, very accepting. I mean, my biggest fault is sometimes I get really angry at Trump supporters, and I have to. My wife, who's so much wiser than me, is like, you've been bamboozled by stuff. And they've been. It's their turn to be bamboozled. They can come back. You've got to give people breathing room to come back. But I think that it's that thing about me which is like, how can you not see this? But I'm not seeing it from their point of view, you know, so you get really. But, yeah, I think that there's a lot of. I need companionship. And we are in a world where the hang is going away. It's more profitable if we are. The more we click on our phones, the more money's being made. But if we're sitting around a either daydreaming or sitting with two or three friends and just chatting, and there's no phones out well, no one's making money off of that, so they want that hang chased away.
- [26:20]
A
Yeah.
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B
So the death of the hang got replaced with all of your phantom friends in your online rabbit hole. Because your phantom friends make somebody money.
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A
Yes. And then they've trained people into thinking that your goal is to be making money at all times. Look, you're gonna be having friends anyway. You might as well. Someone should be making money off friends, which is like.
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B
It's such a bummer that there are people. Look, there's certain people. And again, I'm not judging this either. You get to live your life whatever way you want. But there's certain people very early on. It's a small part of the population, but it's a significant one who just are way more comfortable grinding, grinding for money, building stuff. And if that's what makes you comfortable, that's fine. They're not comfortable at parties. They're not comfortable just hanging and just watching a day turn into vapor, but loving the immediate experience. But those people right now have kind of taken over, because when you get to a certain age, if you live that way, you start to resent the people that have friends and built skills and had experiences. And you want to. Right now, we are in the thrall of these people going, everyone should be grinding or you should be gone. Like, everyone should be grinding. Like me.
- [27:42]
A
As you say in the Special, AI Is the revenge of the boring.
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B
It's the revenge of the boring. It's not the revenge of the nerds. Nerds are interesting people. There's things they care about. They're fascinated. They build stuff. They have friends. They have common interests that they just sit and talk about. When you see someone at a Comic Con and he's taken all year to make some really elaborate costume, that was something he just. He or she did out of love, you know? Although now even that cosplay has now been monetized, and you gotta have a new costume. Every. It's like. It's just. There's a. I'm not their biggest fan, but every now and then, they would drop a lyric that would make me go, oh, boy. And there's a line in the Doors, Strange Days. I think Jim Morrison had just visited Andy Warhol's factory. And he just was not turned on. He was just like, oh, God, what the hell is this? And he. And that's where he wrote Strange Days. But he wrote this line, they're going to destroy our casual joys. And that feels like, what's going on right now?
- [28:43]
A
There's a moment in that joke about AI that I love. It's one of my favorite parts of the album where you can't write the end of the joke, but then becomes this sort of other thing. And if you're willing to break the fourth wall of it or what, like, I can. I was like, is this actually not an ending? Or did he realize the he. The ending is the non ending?
- [29:03]
B
Because, well, I real. Cause that's the thing that I kept. I was working on it on, you know, on weeknights at the Comedy Store and my show at the Largo and stuff like that. But that became the. Oh, the failure. And this gets back to people like Tom Papa and sometimes even Maria Bamford is so good at just embracing being overwhelmed, which is such a human thing to do. But very scary for a comedian is I realized the joke came from me going, I don't have this ending. I will eventually get this ending, and I'll get it by working this night after night until it works. I won't type into a search bar clever bit about AI and then have it farted out to me. So it becomes this weird act of defiance of like, no, you work at it until you figure it out.
- [29:50]
A
It reminded me of something that Caleb Heron said to me recently, which is.
- [29:54]
B
Man, is this my camera?
- [29:57]
A
Yeah.
- [29:58]
B
Save us, Caleb Heron. Seriously, save us, dude. Sorry.
- [30:04]
A
No problem. Which is, in a time of AI the only salvation is to really focus on process.
- [30:10]
B
Yes.
- [30:10]
A
Because AI is so results oriented, which is like, I want, you know, ratatouille to make a rap song or whatever. So then here it is where really, I think what he was saying is, like, ultimately, to be an artist is process. And this is a joke that is essentially about that. Like, that is what you're really giving people.
- [30:29]
B
And also what I'm trying to get through to whoever I can get through. The process itself is always, always, always way more fun than the product when you look back on it. Yes, it's good that I have. I'm very grateful that I've had the specials I've had the albums I've had. But the most fun was sitting in a coffee shop with half a joke and my friends around, and we were working it back and forth or being on a movie set and this scene, I don't know how this is gonna. And then we keep working it till it works. Like, all that stuff. And anyone who's a writer, those moments when you're writing, you probably experience this when you're writing and you don't. Like, I don't know where this is going. And then the writing gets away with you and shows you where it's going. You're like, oh, my God. And you realize, oh, it's just hidden in you. You just need to work this spell to bring it out. So I just. I hope people don't forget that the process is so fun. And if you keep robbing yourself of the process, like a lot of these people that have that grime mentality do, you're gonna hit such a wall of despair and such a wall of resentment and sadness. There was that. The video of AOC dancing on the roof, and so many people were like, oh, my God, that's the end of her political career. And you realize, oh, the only people that reacted negatively to it was, oh, you never just hung out with your friends and acted like a goofball and wasted a day. There was no she. Wow. Why did she do that? Because goofing around with your. You never goofed around.
- [32:00]
A
She was a person.
- [32:00]
B
Oh, my God. You never goofed around with your friends. It was all, how does. How do I monetize this?
- [32:07]
A
Well, to that point, can you think of a particularly favorite day in a writer's room?
- [32:11]
B
There was a day when we were working. I was one of the writers, original writers on the first Borat movie. And then they had. You know, there was that fight, and then the new director came in, and by the time they. I had to go back to work on the show that I was on. But we would just think of the most mundane situations that. And then we would all. You would see everyone in the room get into that character's head. Like, how would he start reacting to this? And just so that constant flow. There was a couple of times we all were. Without saying it. There was no, like, oh, my God, guys, see what we're doing? We just were in that. There was a moment when he was gonna take driving instructions, and we just started going into what he would yell at other drivers. And it just was so, like, for, like, five minutes, we all weren't ourselves. We were just Borat, and we were trying our best, and we weren't doing it. Like, let's make this guy look stupid. It's like, what would this guy say? What would be the thing he would do here? And when you see that happen, I also got to sit in on a South park writer's room and watching how Matt and Trey slowly put things together. The kind of the walking around and the feeling it and saying it out loud and hearing it until it all starts to make sense, you know. And also, you really saw their writing principles in action of the therefore. But then, you know, constantly surprising themselves and also clearly having fun, putting themselves in difficult situations and then figuring out a way comedically to get out of it, you know, that was a great, you know, reminder.
- [33:56]
A
Can you think of a particularly memorable or favorite day on a set?
- [34:00]
B
We had a. There was a moment. Oh, God.
- [34:07]
A
Take your time.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah. Okay. Well, there's two. One's dramatic and one is kind of funny. When I was doing Young adult, and there's a scene where Charlize's character and I have sex. And you would think that the nervousness of the scene would come from, oh, we're both nude and there's a crew around. And what was really weird was what made us both nervous was. Cause we were so into the characters at that point. Up until that moment in the movie, our characters, the only way they related was by pointing out how shitty everything was. Look at this idiot. Look at this loser. And now we don't. We're at a point we've both been scraped so raw by life that we don't have any words to say to each other. So it's like, do we even exist? Not just with this person. Do I exist, period, if I'm not being. And so that we got into this weird reaction of, like, genuine fear that wasn't in the script because we had been living with these characters for so long. And then to react the way we did was really like when I. When I embrace her. And I didn't even realize I was doing it till I saw that when I went to the premiere, I was like, my character is terrified of, do I even exist right now? Because I'm not just being snarky. We're just holding each other.
- [35:22]
A
Yeah.
- [35:22]
B
Like, the fear isn't with the sex or the intimacy. It's the all. Everything I've built has been on negativity.
- [35:28]
A
Before we get to the next scene, I want to stop, because I did. I was planning on asking you about that because you're. It's. There's something about your physicality in that scene is really amazing. Like, you're really this person. Yeah. And, I mean, there's a way where you slide your own shorts down. You sort of need help and.
- [35:45]
B
Yeah.
- [35:46]
A
And, like, this is a person who. It was severely injured, but you just were that. And there is such a unsuredness of how to even go forward. That's not just like, I'm scared. Cause Charlize Theron is. I'M kissing Charlize Theron?
- [35:59]
B
No, it's more of do. If we do become intimate, will we both disappear? And I also, like, some of my favorite moments in movies are when people are just being so natural and real. Like that scene in the Conversation where Gene Hackman is alone in his apartment and he takes just his pants off and sits and makes that phone call. And it really feels like you're eavesdropping on someone. It was that kind of acting where they're like, I'm not doing this in a Hollywood way. I'm actually showing you. You're watching someone alone in their apartment and they're letting stuff hang out and they don't look good, but it's so real. And it really captivates you like to see that, you know? So I was trying to go, like. Especially. Cause after reading that script, I'm like, don't do anything, like Hollywoody or choreographed or smooth. Make this look as awkward as possible. It was the same when there was a fight scene that in Justified. Well, not even a fight scene. I'm being beaten up. And the stunt coordinator was so cool. He's like, we're gonna find ways goes as many of these stunts that you can do, I'd like you to do. But I don't want this to look choreographed. Like, when he and the other actor that I work with that I'm blanking on his name was so good. He's like, if you're trying to throw him, try to stop yourself and let it look as awkward and real as you possibly can. There's a scene in Paul Thomas Anderson's the Master where Joaquin Phoenix starts a fight with a guy. And it is one of the realest looking fights I've ever seen on camera. Like, it almost looks like, was this not scripted? And he and the actor just started fighting and it's like a day player and he's messing with him. And it turns into a fight the way fights look, which is always awkward and always embarrassing. And so we were going. So those moments like that when we're actually trying to make this look like life, which will look very sloppy.
- [37:50]
A
Yeah.
- [37:51]
B
And then a comedic moment, there's a scene. And just again, you won't see this watching it because we cut all the mistakes out. There's a scene on AP Bio where one of the guy who plays the janitor, and he was one of the writers in the show. And again, I'm forgetting, I'm blanking your name. And he's brilliant. Brilliant writer, brilliant actor. And he Comes in the night before. Glenn Howerton's character had been like looped out on drugs or something and had accidentally beaten him up in a hallucination. So he knows it. It's me and Paul Lepel and Glenn Howerton. And we're all just standing there. And then he comes in. He goes, hey, what's your problem, buddy? But the way he. I can't even deliver it. The way he delivered it, it made. I don't know what it was. It made us laugh so hard. So we blew the first take. Cause the way he said it. And then he couldn't not do it that way. Cause it was the perfect way to do it. And then we laughed like a second time. Then it became now we're LA because, oh my God, are we gonna blow like five or six tapes? And then we did 12 takes. And by the 11th take we were just laughing. Cause we were so loopy. It just didn't make any sense anymore that now we're exhausted, the thing is not funny. And now we're laughing and we just. And we barely could get through it. And whenever I watch that episode, when he comes in, he goes, what's your problem, buddy? All I think of is how hard I hope they kept that on camera somewhere, like all those takes. Because there was that weird moment every now and then when you get the giggles. You're like, am I just not gonna get this take? Am I? Like, will I just not get this? Yeah, like, what happens to the show?
- [39:35]
A
Not get to keep on going.
- [39:37]
B
Especially when you're laughing at something, it's not even funny. But once you find something funny, you're fucked. You'll never not laugh at it.
- [39:47]
A
So we're talking you put out an album, you're a comedian who surely could put out a film special. Why did you put out an album?
- [39:55]
B
First Audible made me this really good offer. And the idea of when they said, we just want to put out an audio album record in a theater. And it hit me that, oh, everything that influenced me as a comedian coming up was an album that I listened to. It wasn't visual, it was just the words and a chance. And the two albums that I think are closest to and the rawest to who I am are my first two, Feeling Kind of Patent and Werewolves and Lollipop. So a chance to get to do that again at this really good theater, the Minetta Lane. And we're just gonna record you. And what was weird was when I. So we did two shows. The first show, first 10 minutes of it, I Still had that. I'm taping a special energy. Cause I directed my last two specials. So I'm very much in mind of like, are we using a jib for this shot? How many audience things? What's the lighting? I was so in my head about that. And it took me that much time to go, wait, it doesn't matter what I look like. And I got so free and so loose. And then the second show was totally loose. And that is. We pretty much used the second show uncut. It's just the most comfortable, loosest, most real I've been on stage in a long time. Because you do have to keep in mind, unfortunately, we do live in a visual time. Now I'm hearing like when people do battles, they're told, don't move too much the left to right because we need to keep it vertical because that's how we share it on reels. And I know, I know. It's all. They just showed a thing. Isn't there like these little 60 second reels that are being done as like shows?
- [41:37]
A
I'm sure.
- [41:38]
B
And all I can remember is that joke from. From 30 Rock was so prophetic when Jack Donaghy's like, that's the guy that invented the 10 second online sitcom. And they cut to that thing called. I think it's called Making it Work. He's like, honey, I'm home. Great. And they run the credits. We did it like that's, that's the whole show. But that's what we have now. So. Yeah. So this is like, I'm just talking for an hour. This is fantastic.
- [42:07]
A
Comedy albums, how I started a lot of ways getting into comedy. And then it's like. And I just remember when I really got comedy, got into comedy as an adult, it was through a couple albums. It was like Kyle Kana's album, Hannibal's album. Like that generation of. Oh, no, not everyone's getting specials yet, right? It's right before all the specials started happening.
- [42:25]
B
And I think Whiskey Icarus has. Has created a lot of comedians, people that listen that and go, oh, I want to. I want to do that.
- [42:32]
A
And like that's how I. Patton Oswald is your. Is an audio comedian first to me. And so it's like. And then you assume, yeah, the special script kind of gonna be the same. And then I listen to this and you're like, oh, album, I think is my preferred way of consuming stand up.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah, I'm glad that hopefully this will bring it back to that because I think there's a lot of comedians who you get. You do get dwarfed sometimes by the mechanics of a special. Especially if you're in a big theater or an arena. You have so much more on your mind than just doing the comedy. You know, even a lot of Adam Sandler's early albums, they were just albums. They were like a combination of stand up and then like great Cheech and Chong stuff. Like he really embraced the. This is all gonna happen in your mind. You will hear and see this in your head. And I just love stuff like that.
- [43:25]
A
Has your process changed much over the years? Like I've noticed. I feel like you've been playing more clubs over the last few years than you have.
- [43:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, I love doing theaters every now. I just did a theater up in Olympia, Washington, but I went and did a couple years ago, I did comedy on. I want to. Comedy on State or comedy on. Man, I always get this wrong in Madison, Wisconsin. And got there Thursday, did Thursday night to Friday to Saturday. I got so much writing done. The audience is right there. They're right there. You're absolutely connected and wired into them. The sets were so much. I mean, again, there's advantages to doing theaters, obviously, but in a theater you're like this. And with a comedy club, you're kind of like, hey, listen to this. You're not going to believe this shit that happened. And it's just such a great. It's such a. More so now. I'm very fortunate that I get to go back and forth between theaters and comedy clubs when I want to. And there's so many great comedy clubs right now. I filmed my last special in Madison at Comedy Home State. I did it right there. Cause that club is so incredible. But the comedy works in Denver. And I just did Charlie Goodnights in Raleigh, Cobbs in San Francisco. Go Bananas in Cleveland. All the Heliums, the. Oh, God, what's the one in Minneapolis? Why am I blanking?
- [44:53]
A
Oh, I know.
- [44:54]
B
Oh, God. Oh, they're gonna kill me. There's a great club in Minneapolis that that's like.
- [45:03]
A
Yeah.
- [45:03]
B
Famous. Yeah.
- [45:04]
A
I'm surprised. I don't even know the name. Even though I've never.
- [45:06]
B
Fuck. I'm so embarrassed. But like great shows. So. So I. I do like a nice. Although. And that's. It's weird now there's. I do a nice combination of that because the theaters really help you perform. But a club makes you write. You write like crazy. You get so much stuff out of that. Just like when I was doing alt comedy, I would do the alt comedy rooms. I love The M Bar. I love the Largo. Especially love the Largo. Still love the Largo. Do a show there every month. But I never neglected going out on the road and doing clubs and doing theaters because I wanted the benefit. You gotta have the benefits of both. You write like crazy in the Largo and you edit in the clubs, and it's the best.
- [45:47]
A
The thing I was curious about with your writing, I think people assume, oh, it's so writerly, or can be. At times, they're like, oh, he must write it out. And as I've talked to you before, that's just not necessarily a process. But the thing that I find curious is you have described yourself as having OCD or crippling ocd. And so when you imagine a person with OCD doing comedian, it's very meticulously planned out and it feels like its actual. But that's not how you process. So it is. I was just sort of curious how your brain puts it all together.
- [46:17]
B
Luckily, I managed to either compartmentalize or manifest my OCD in rituals that have nothing to do with the writing. There's other things I do during the day that feed into my ocd.
- [46:29]
A
This is where the dishwasher came.
- [46:31]
B
Nobody stacks a frigging dishwasher. I. If they ever do, if that becomes an Olympic event. Bringing home gold for America, folks. But my process, after all of my rituals, is you go on stage and you have the basic idea. I write in a notebook, a couple of ideas. I don't write all the words out. It has to sound conversational. I can't write conversational. And this isn't a brag, but when I find the right way to do a bit, it becomes like song lyrics. And I just remember them, you know, like when you study, if you can set something to music, you can remember is a form of music. And if you listen to some of my bits, the way that I inflect and deliver things, it is like music. It not. I hate when communities go. I'm like a jazz musician, man. It's not that it's not jazz, but it's that, like, I know how I'm gonna say it, you know? And I try very hard not to do the da da da da da da da. I always avoid that. This is more me. I'm telling you a story, and there's eight jokes along the way, but not a I don't want to do that.
- [47:45]
A
You joke on the album that is your 30th year celebrating taking Prozac. So you were doing comedy for a While before you did, can you talk about how your life as a comedian or your comedy change as a result of it?
- [47:56]
B
Yeah, I have more of a breathing space before I go into the deep blacks. If I get the blues, I can just go, okay, wait a second. What is that from? Talk therapy and medication were a godsend to me because before that, my thoughts controlled me, and I thought that, well, if I have a thought, I must be having it for a reason. It's like, no, you're allowed all kinds of thoughts. They don't get to dictate your day. And also, it really helped me get to this point where, especially with depression, and I do earlier bits about this too. You gotta talk to your depression and go, I know you're never going away completely. You're here. I got you. You get to rent out some time in my head, and we'll. And I'll work out some times. Or we can sit and be sad, and we can sit and brood, but you're not gonna wreck the house you're living in. That's no good for me, and it's no good for you. So what do you need? What are our little times? But then also, I gotta function like it's. You are ultimately in control of everything. And if you treat it that way, then the other parts of you, your fear, your sadness, your doubt will go, okay. He's running the show every now and then. Like, I have doubts all the time about anything I'm about to. I'm like, doubt. What do you want to do? Let's hear it. Let him go. Okay. You know what? I feel that too. We're gonna go do this anyway.
- [49:20]
A
Like, you.
- [49:20]
B
Like, if you talk to it and personify it first. I mean, I'm paraphrasing Todd Glass, but if you can mock it, you can manage it. Or if you can name it, you could. So I'm like, all right, guys, what do you need? What do you got? You know? And then you kind of go from there. But. But the idea. That's why I always hate movies when someone is like. When they. The way they show therapy, someone has a big breakthrough. And then the psychiatrist is like, well, you're all done. It's like, no, that's not how it works. Depression never leaves you, but you just gotta learn to manage it.
- [49:52]
A
Yeah. How did having a kid make your comedy worse? How did it hurt your comedy? How did it help your comedy?
- [49:58]
B
Oh, it definitely helped my comedy, because there's a lot.
- [50:01]
A
Do you feel like it hurt in any way?
- [50:03]
B
Well, I mean, Initially, the only thing that hurt my comedy was right when my daughter got born that first year, I was so terrified now of, like, oh, my God, I gotta provide for her. I gotta make money. And I started taking anything, acting, tv, movie, job that was being offered. So I wasn't focusing as much on the comedy for a while. I got into the hustler mindset, make money. And then I'm just like, wait a minute. First off, I want to hang out with her. I'm not trying to get away from her. And secondly, how will that help her if she's raised by this dad who's radiating need and terror even if he's making money? Fuck does that help? So that it, like, really brought me around very quickly to, like, you can make enough money to do come. I. I very. I learned very, very quickly what enough is. And I think there's a lot of people who never learned what enough is. I think in. I think enough is a word that we need to bring back in a huge way.
- [51:05]
A
Yeah. And then how did it help?
- [51:07]
B
Well, it helped because I was watching how she was reacting to the world and also how I was affecting her and how I was influencer. And you could see, oh, that's a bad habit of mine that is being personified and amplified by this adorable imp. And that's a chance for you to recognize that and go, maybe I need to change that because that, like. Cause you don't want them. Then. You know, one of the reasons that, like, your parents are there to show you in a lot of ways what will happen if you don't work on your stuff. You know, some parents are. And so. And no one's perfect. So there were moments where I'm like, oh, yeah, I gotta work on that. Okay, that's something I gotta. So that was really interesting. But then there were also those moments when you see, oh, she is my kid. Because look what she's drawn to, or look how she's reacting to things. And, you know, she's very, very funny. She loves to read. But then there's other things where you're like, that's not like me at all. Because they're also an individual. And you learn very, very quickly, especially in life, like, that's not my thing, but it's their thing. And I'm glad that they have their thing that they love. They should have that.
- [52:24]
A
There's a moment in the album that I found moving, which was, you talk about how your daughter likes horror movies, and specifically she watches horror movies beyond her years.
- [52:33]
B
Well, she always Tried to.
- [52:35]
A
She tries to. But it reminds me of a joke from when she was much younger that you had about turning on the TV and the wolfman is playing.
- [52:45]
B
She was really young, and she wanted to watch tv. Oh, God, this is so fucking embarrassing, by the way. This is me trying to be a good dad, and I ended up making things 100 times worse.
- [52:55]
A
But it's something. What a gift you're giving your. You don't talk about your kid a lot in your act. You have a little bit, but it's. It's nice that you're giving this part of it. Like, I have a sense of her just from these little snippets of portraits. When you think about talking about your kidney act, how do you think about it, especially when you're giving parts, these moments?
- [53:17]
B
The only times I want to talk about her is when she does something that really, I think, illustrates either something about life, a bigger sense of life, or especially in terms of, like, different generations. So this new bit about watching the original Halloween with her is like, oh, sometimes the stuff that you think was cool or is not gonna be cool to the next generation, and you gotta move along with that. Now, keep in mind, you also with kids, you find out what is eternal, because there are certain things. I mean, obviously she loves new artists, you know, like Phoebe Bridgers and Chaperone, and then she loves Leonard Cohen and David Bowie. And you're like, oh, there's certain things that are eternal and will always last and will always with people, you know, And Bikini kill loves Bikini Kill. So there are certain things where you realize sometimes you don't know what's gonna be the thing that lasts until later on, and especially when you see the way a kid reacts to it. So that's really a fascinating thing that I'm very. I'm very spoiled about that. And then also I'm. Whenever we drive around, I'm like, you plug your iPhone in and you play me. You dj, like, play me something new. I don't know any of this stuff. And so I've learned about a lot of amazing new musicians because of her that I didn't know about.
- [54:33]
A
Do you. Is she. I mean, is she now at an age where you ask her if it's okay to talk about things on stage? Was there an age where you decided.
- [54:40]
B
Oh, I always run it by her first? I mean, when she's little.
- [54:43]
A
When she's three.
- [54:43]
B
Yeah. Well, when she's three, it's also. Cause I'm not really doing anything embarrassing. This is just like a Little kid, you know, I would never tell an embarrassing story about her. It's always especially. I'm just very open to the way that so many time people. There's something about Gen X and the boomers where we are just white knuckling youth and we're not getting out of the way. And there's. I don't know what it is, but I just feel like I'm more attuned to when somebody young is actually defining an actual unveiling an actuality. And that maybe we don't necessarily see. Cause they're using slang that we don't get, or it's in the context of a movie or a TV show that we don't give a shit about, but we did that exact same thing. And now it's time for us to go, oh, oh, shit. I didn't think about it that way. And get the fuck out of the way.
- [55:39]
A
Has she seen your standup?
- [55:41]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [55:41]
A
Have she watched your specials?
- [55:43]
B
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, no, she. I mean, she loved the only time that she corrected a thing that I did in the new special. I talk about her doing tech at a school play. And I. And the initial one was. I'm like, she auditioned for it and didn't get it and did tech. And she's like, I don't. I'm not bothered by this. But I never auditioned for it. I just signed up immediately. I just wanted to do tech. I'm like, oh, got it. You know, that was. She just like, more about. Just tell me the fact. Tell them the factual stuff.
- [56:07]
A
How does she feel about the words you used to use?
- [56:11]
B
Again, I think that she. Look, there's a lot of stuff that she watches that we were watching growing up. She's like, ooh, oh, yeah, yeah. I'm very open about. I didn't know better. I didn't know better. That's why I said F. That's why I said R. That's what. You know. Because I either thought I was A, I thought it was funny, or B, I thought I was being ironically brilliant in the whole Lenny Bruce, George Conway look at words, man. But they'd already parsed all that stuff. I didn't need to do that. You know, I just was going for the. Yeah, I want to be. When you're young, when you're a young comedian, you're very insecure and you're trying to find ways to be edgy. And sometimes you make mistakes and you learn better, and it's not fatal. I don't know. Why do people when people fuck up, then they double down. Now I'm gonna say it twice as much. Why it's hack.
- [57:06]
A
If you're comfortable saying, can you explain what. Can you capture what it's like having her see Annihilation? The special about your first wife's passing, her mom's passing.
- [57:16]
B
I don't think we watched it together. I think she watched that by herself, and then we talked about it afterward. But I don't. That's a special I've never really been able to watch.
- [57:29]
A
Imagine.
- [57:30]
B
Much like when I was doing. I was producing that documentary for hbo, the I'll Be Gone in the Dark after the. And I was, you know, doing notes and stuff. But then after the fourth episode, I'm like, I called up Liz Garbus. I'm like, please, please understand, I can't watch anymore. And she goes, I totally understand. Like, I'm. You're such a good documentary filmmaker, I will leave this in your hands. I can't give you notes on episode five and six. And she said, I totally get it. So I've never seen that whole series. Yeah. And I never will.
- [57:55]
A
Yeah. I could just. It is sort of an interesting. Yeah. Well, I want to say this, which was, you know, when we first spoke, ever, it was about Annihilation. And I understood theoretically how this is, like, a hard thing for a person to do and, like. And. But I think comedy fans, and maybe me in general, is, you know, in theory, comedy is vulnerable. But you're like, well, they're being funny. It probably is not that hard. And then as I grow older, as I had kids myself, you realize it actually is hard to say certain things on stage. And there's a moment which, to me, I think about that you did this, and it's amazing, which is you use this line, which is specifically, like, you talk about your wife's unexpected passing as the second worst day of your life. And you telling your daughter is. Was the hardest day of your life. And I go that. Just saying that out loud in front of people, saying that out loud period, is to do it on stage, you don't know what's going to happen.
- [58:50]
B
Yeah. It's also. It was weird. I was very terrified to say it, because even when I say now that day and that moment is something that has, you know, even the worst trauma you go through fades or at least adjusts itself so you can live. But for some reason, that day and that moment when I told her, if I talk about it, it is immediately evoked as fresh as it was when it Happened. And so I was really. That was a. I remember when I was going through it, and I didn't know if I was gonna do that part of the bit. I was. You know, there was all this other stuff about grief, and I. Up until the last minute. Cause I was like. I thought I was just gonna explode into tears. But then I kept it together. But I didn't. I wasn't 100% sure because. Oh, fuck. Even now. Yeah, it's moving on very quickly from this. So I can talk. It was the. It's. It's the worst moment and day in my life. Yeah.
- [59:55]
A
I appreciate it.
- [59:56]
B
And it always will be.
- [59:57]
A
It is. Again, it made me react. Really realize how hard that to do that on stage really is. And so to move on slightly, which is. I imagine your relationship to the audience felt different from there on forward, or at least you're open in a different way. How did it change? The thing that I was thinking about is. And maybe I was telling myself this story. But when you say thank you at the end of that special, and when you say thank you in general to audiences, you do not seem like other comedians are. You do actually seem like you're happy.
- [60:32]
B
I never got over that feeling of the first year that I just paid my rent and bought my food just from doing comedy. I didn't have to work another job. That has always been a thrill for me. Like, that's when I made it. Like, oh, my God. All I have to do is stand up if I want to. And I think a lot of people lose that. Cause then they. And I lost that for a while, too. You're like, and then, where's my movie career? Where's my. But you get to do this. Lori Kilmartin tweeted something once where she was like, hey, comedian. Out on the road right now in Mansfield, Ohio, on a Thursday night, your dream came true. You're doing comedy. You're paying the bills doing comedy. You made it. Remind yourself of that. So I've never forgotten that fact of, like, I'm just so thrilled that people are showing up. And. And I'm also excited. And I've said this before. An audience is a verb. It's not a noun. It's a thing that is happening, and it's not gonna happen again. And you're part of that verb. And I'm always. I can't hide how tickled I am to. We just all went through that. Oh, my God. All that. This weird stuff happened that I didn't plan that. You didn't plan. I love it.
- [61:47]
A
You mentioned that this felt the album feels like your favorite thing since Werewolves and Lollipops.
- [61:53]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [61:53]
A
And it made me think about that immediately, because Werewolves and Lollipops, to me, that's Patton Oswald.
- [61:58]
B
And then all the specials are like, one uncut show. One completely uncut show at the. At the Austin. At the. Oh, God damn it. The comedy club in Austin. It'll come to me as we talk.
- [62:10]
A
Cap City.
- [62:11]
B
Cap City. Sorry. Cap City. I love you. Anyway, go ahead.
- [62:16]
A
You're welcome. Cap City. That. I knew the name of it. And it is a tremendous work. I think it's one of the most influential pieces of comedy the last 25 years.
- [62:25]
B
Thank you.
- [62:25]
A
And I want to ask you a few bits because it's. It is prophetic. Like, it really sort of sees where the culture is going. If you zoom out or you think about it, there's a lot of bits that really do sort of, I think, give a sense of cultural moments. And the first I want to ask you about is. I think the. It predicted it is a where America was going joke. I'm sure you now know what you're going to ask about. Which is. Which is you have a joke about the KFC bull.
- [62:59]
B
Yeah, we.
- [62:59]
A
So not only where did the idea come from, but, like, where did the passion to talk about it come from?
- [63:04]
B
Because it. I think there was that the first time I saw a KFC famous bowl. Because usually when you watch food ads, you know, they. They can make the food and it's all fake. They just brush stuff. They couldn't even make it look good or appetizing in the ads. Like, they just. It was the first time I ever saw a place, a fast food conglomerate just go, we just slopped a bunch of shit in a bowl and we know you're gonna eat it. And so we don't really need to. Like, there was this very sinister, like, we know you're gonna buy it. We don't really need to work that hard. It's just extra shit that's left over and we're putting it all in a bowl together. And so it had this weird sense of finality and America's given up. You know, that whole thing was so even, like. And I remember people going, it's just a shepherd's pie. A shepherd's pie is made with loving care. And there used to be an amazing shepherd's pie at the Cat and Fiddle on Sunset. And they, like, worked at that thing. This is just. What do we have left? Yeah, give it to him. So there was that. I couldn't not talk about it. It was coming from a sense of like, am I sensing like danger for our future in seeing this thing?
- [64:27]
A
Yes, you are really weird. Like to go back and the line which is, america has spoken. Pile my food in a fucking bowl. And I go, that's every. That is. That quote is the next 20 years.
- [64:42]
B
Well, you could apply that to a lot of things now, which is like just my movie. Just take every character I like and just kind of slap them together and I'll watch them all in a big movie. Music Take like nine sample like nine songs. Like just slap them together with a thing. So we just had all this. Just the stuff I like just taking, you know, book. A lot of book publishing just became just take. I like kind of vampires and also sort of sex and spy thing, you know, And. And in a weird way, I guess politics and culture was the same thing of like just America's great and white people.
- [65:22]
A
Yeah. It's like, I don't have time.
- [65:24]
B
Why are your time. It's time to go. Let's go.
- [65:27]
A
And I do think that the KFC bowl was corporate America being like, what if we just sort of been like, here, just eat this and we'll see what happens. And people are like, I think there's a bit of that bowl which is like. It almost felt like KFC is doing it as a. As a bit. And then people being like, consume it as a bit. But then they're like, that's that sort of thing where everything becomes a joke. Like, there is that is also so much food. It's now in a bowl.
- [65:53]
B
Yeah, but you're right that we have gotten to this. Dude, it's all just a joke, man. Come on. You can't. Like, we've made caring about anything uncool, you know, which is really, really dangerous because that lets. That gives cover to a lot of people who believe me, a are not cool. But now they have cover to make it look like they're cool. They very much care about some very evil results they want. But they can hide it in the hole. Could you just relax? And what's wrong with you?
- [66:23]
A
I don't know if you have last time you listened to it, but there's a sentence where. I don't know. I've had a comedian have a word where I had to look up what you go, I want a light brown hillock of cloth. Hillock.
- [66:33]
B
Oh, God, I did use the word hillock.
- [66:35]
A
I was like, how do I even spell? I mean, You're. It's a like a little mountain thing.
- [66:39]
B
Yeah. Little tiny mountain.
- [66:41]
A
So it's a little mountain. The line that is the line that everyone remembers that everyone then stole your writing style for, which is a failure pile. And a sadness bowl.
- [66:51]
B
And a sadness bowl. Yeah. Just like making a concept a concrete reality. Like the idea of failure has been made tangible and been commodified. It's making someone else money. Your sadness, your isolation and your loneliness is making someone else money. I'm sorry if that doesn't predict the Internet. I don't know what else did.
- [67:18]
A
This is what I'm saying. It is like it should be studied. I don't know who studies these things other than me.
- [67:24]
B
Yeah. But.
- [67:25]
A
So what do you think now, looking back upon it, like the legacy of it, what happened? I don't know how often you get asked about it anymore, but like.
- [67:32]
B
Well, I think there's always people in every field that. That do something. They make up something that is so ridiculous and so crazy, and then they live long enough to watch that then become reality, the thing that they did. Like, I thought that bit would. I embrace the absurdity of what that thing was. And I just assumed in my head that people would go, yeah, I'm not eating a slop out of a goddamn bowl. And then it became the number one selling thing. And there was an interview in Fortune mag, it was either Forbes or Fortune, where they talked to the executive at Yum Brands who created the famous bull. And they're like, you know, there's a comedian who calls that comedian Patton Oswald calls it a failure pal and a sadness bull. And then he said, well, I wish Patton would see all the happiness it's brought to people. Like, he got defensive about his thing. Like, you, you can't pretend to care about this shit.
- [68:23]
A
The wild part is your joke. This is like truly a perfect allegory for. With the state of political comedy, which is your joke, by satirizing it also then elevated it as a cultural thing that we must interact with. And the next. And in like an era of postmodernism, that the negatively interacting with it and positively interacting it is, is discernible.
- [68:46]
B
It's the same. It doesn't matter. All it is is again, people are making money off of reactions. We didn't say good or bad. All we said was reactions. So a negative comment under someone's YouTube video, under someone's bit. It's making someone money. You just made someone money.
- [69:03]
A
I told you it was prophetic.
- [69:04]
B
It really. Oh, God, I didn't even think about that. But, I mean, I'm in. This is not on the same level, but I am on that. I guess I'm in that sad little fraternity of people like Norman Lear, who's like, I created Archie Bunker to kind of show, and then America fell in love with it, you know, or Michael Douglas and Oliver Stone going, I invented Gordon Gekko to show you how awful capitalism is, and it bred a whole new generation of velociraptor capitalists, you know, and that happens sometimes, and sometimes you don't get to control it.
- [69:39]
A
I mean, that is a perfect transition to the Star wars joke.
- [69:43]
B
Oh, okay, here we go.
- [69:47]
A
Do you remember the general premise of the Star wars prequel joke?
- [69:49]
B
Yeah. Basically, it was pretty complicated premise. It's that I go, it's a very long premise. But basically it's the whole prequel thing of, hey, do you want to see the origin of this character? And you're like, oh, whoa. Like, you get to see young Darth Vader. What's he doing? He's like a weird. Yeah, he's like a little kid. He's like a sad little kid. You're like, does he have so no mask? No. Wait, what. So that idea of having to show everything's origin. And again, that was not for artistic purposes. It wasn't like in the Godfather Part II where you see young Vito Corleone and it just deepens his character even more. This is Hannibal Rising, where they're just like, you love Hannibal. You want some more Hannibal. Here he is. Look at. You know, so it's. That's. That's. Again, it's. Someone's making money off of this.
- [70:38]
A
Yeah. It's both predicted or not predicted. I mean, that was the prequel that made other prequels, but it also. You were an emblem of Star wars fan, and then you're the. And then you become the emblem of. Once we give the Star wars fan what they wanted, which is more Star wars, you go, immediately they're angry about it. And these sort of the entitlement of winning and this sort of. Then what would come of nerds broadly in the decades that followed.
- [71:08]
B
Nobody bullies harder than the formerly bullied. Nobody excludes harder than the formerly excluded. And we're seeing so much of that in, like, tech bros and online discourse. You just seeing a lot of this, like, it's my turn to do it, and they will do it in an amplified way, and I'm just as guilty of it.
- [71:28]
A
Yeah.
- [71:29]
B
You know, with my. That's the story Lucas wanted to tell. I didn't invent Star Wars. He gets to say whatever he wants. But I'm doing that. But it has to be the way I'd like it. Yeah. I just remember when I saw my brother and I went to see fan minutes together, and there's that scene in the Galactic Senate, and they're just. The trade route must be. And my brother just goes, this is like watching C Span. And they're all wearing monster masks. I just started laughing so hard. I'm like, this is exactly what this is.
- [72:03]
A
Which, in retrospect, if it was, if you. That's almost like a decent idea for, like, a play where it's like teaspoon, but not in Star Wars. No, but it's interesting because, like, after that, I do think, like, young adult and big fan together are sort of portrait, then our continuation of a portrait of.
- [72:19]
B
Of how fandom curdles and how fandom can cost you your life, basically. Not in a physical sense, but in an emotional and psychological sense. Absolutely. Be fans of things, sports teams, a specific athlete, an actor, a creator. But that shouldn't replace your life. Stephen King said your life. Art should be a function of your life. It shouldn't be the other way around. Just like your fandom should be a function of your life, but not your life. But again, there's so much loneliness out there. And as lonely as loneliness can be, it's also. Loneliness is seductively very safe. When you have. People are unpredictable, you don't know what will happen minute to minute. You don't have control over it. Now, for a lot of people that are, you know, that's part of the thrill of it. But I can see how people will go. But when I'm just. If I'm just immersed in this fandom, it's safe. It's a safe little world. And also, when you look at the state of the world, I don't blame anyone from going, yeah, I'm just into old noir, by the way. I am just again, I have one foot in old noir movies and weird showbiz lore. And, you know, like, there's part of that that's like, I could just live in that. And I also feel like in, like, 10 years, I'm just gonna stop watching the news and just be the guy, like, showing an old Dick Powell movie tonight. I'm gonna go check that out. Lady in the Lake is on. That's wonderful. You know, I could easily slip into that world, too, so I don't fault anyone for doing it. It's a great escape route, you know.
- [74:03]
A
A lighter one is you have a joke about Michelin chefs that I do feel like was on the cutting edge of the idea of chefs are the new rock stars that then culminates to televisions of the bear.
- [74:16]
B
Well, well, Chef's Table. But it fell into this thing of chefs are the new rock stars. And there were some chefs, like the head chef at Schwa in Chicago, that truly were, like, kind of crazy and also geniuses. And that fed into his genius. Absolutely. But then there were. And then there were chefs that were genuinely geniuses, like Eric Ripert and, you know, Thomas Keller and especially Grant Achatz. And then there were. It felt like there were chefs that were coming up that were skilled, but were like, oh, but I've gotta have some craziness. Cause that's the thing now. And they kind of. They started with the crazy first and then got into the skill. You know what I mean? Like, as obsessive as Eric Ripert can be, watch that episode of no Reservations into the Fire. When he works the line at LA hall, it's like, oh, the reason this guy has Michelin stars is when he needs to, he can cook the best fries you've ever eaten. You know, like that. He still has the skills. Of course he can do that.
- [75:16]
A
Yeah. I do think there is a. An analog for comedians especially. I feel like now there are a lot of people who are like, oh, my favorite comedians get to say whatever I want to say whatever. So they start with the I want to say whatever aspect of it you got.
- [75:30]
B
Again, it's every. Anthony Jesenik said this, maybe on this podcast, but he said that whole Andy Warhol thing. Art is what you can get away with, and so you gotta find a way to get away with it. But if you're just out there blatantly saying it and going, go ahead and cancel me. Well, you didn't do any. You didn't accomplish anything. It's so much better when you listen to, like, George Carlin. He is getting away with it, and Pryor is getting away with it and making people leave the show when they're done listening to him. Where normally they'd hate that stuff and they've listen to stuff that they would normally be offended by and going, I never thought about it that way. You know, I mean, the extraordinary thing about the seven dirty words you can't say on television is not that he says the seven dirty words, because when he first says that, yeah, there's a big explosion. Oh, my God, he said it. By the end of the bit because then he goes into each one. It's so ridiculous. If you notice at the end of that bit, he says the seven words again and one just goes, yeah. Why? No one reacts to like, yeah. Why are those not. That doesn't make any sense, you know, so that's what real comedy is, man.
- [76:34]
A
You mentioned Thomas Keller, so Ratatouille is my favorite Pixar movie. It is a great movie. I think it really. It holds up. It.
- [76:41]
B
He's right.
- [76:43]
A
It, I imagine also gets you free meals. Would you say you have a lot of gratitude?
- [76:52]
B
Thanks so much for tuning in. I'd like to apologize for the last hour and a half that we here. Okay. Can I tell you a really sweet story about Thomas Keller?
- [77:04]
A
Sure.
- [77:04]
B
He's like the nicest guy on the planet. And he. We went to the Ratatouille. We went to the Oscars. The Oscars was nominated. And he was there with us, with me and Brad. Cause Thomas Keller created the ratatouille that's in that movie. That's his Ratatouille. And from what I heard when they screened it and the scene where they take the parchment off of it, but it's still cooking a little bit. Like, he got a little teary eyed, like, that's my kid and my kid's in a movie. So we went to an after Oscars party at Mastro's and we're sitting there, we're talking. I'm like, what are you doing this summer? And he's like, oh, I'm gonna visit these restaurants in these regions. He's an explorer. He's a seeker. And the two chefs at Mastro's came over and were like, Mr. Keller, do you want anything to eat? You hungry? He's like, oh, no, I'm good. Than. And they both kind of walked away and then they came back and like, we just really wanted to cook you something. And like. And like. And he goes, oh, yeah, I'll get a steak for each. Like he realized they want. It was like someone going, Mr. Hendricks, can I just play guitar really quick for you? You know, like that kind of thing. And it was so that impulse is in everything. Like in every cooking is another form of art. And that's what you want to, you know. And I. And I feel like sometimes it's. Sometimes it crosses over and sometimes it doesn't. I remember I met. I was at Paul Rubin's wake and I met Jack White from the White Stripes and his music, those albums, the Stilj and everything, like, were just a huge influence on My comedy, not in any direct way, but, like, having it playing and seeing what he was doing was like, what is he doing with the form? How first. How is he stripping it down and then making it seem like it's something even more complex? How can I do that with my comedy? And I could not articulate that to him. Like, how that transferred to me. So I just went, hey, great to meet you. And then I just walked away and. Cause I didn't know what to say. And I feel like he's either, like, that asshole snubbed me or something, but that's one of those things where I couldn't see. Thing is, I could. There's no way I could get all that out. So I just left him alone.
- [79:16]
A
So I'll mark you down as having gratitude.
- [79:19]
B
I have a lot of gratitude.
- [79:20]
A
Got him to say it. Why haven't you directed a movie?
- [79:24]
B
Why? Exactly. You know why? Fear and laziness. I'm so. I love movies so much that I know that I would be very, very personally wrapped up in anything that I did. But now I'm doing this thing where I'm forcing myself. I'm going to direct a movie next year, one way or the other. Don't know how I'm gonna do it yet. I got the script. I want to direct. My brother wrote it. It's fun, frigging fantastic. And I'm gonna find a way to direct it. And when I direct it, it'll be so I can be ready to do my next one. And then what? Like, I gotta do the same thing now with directing, because I love movies so much that I had to do with comedy, which was just get in your fucking car and drive to D.C. and go on stage. Yeah, but what if it. Just fucking go on stage. Fucking go on stage.
- [80:09]
A
Cause I feel like, what if it.
- [80:10]
B
Yeah, it doesn't matter. Just fucking go on stage.
- [80:13]
A
Maybe it was in your book, you said, like, my dream in life is to direct a movie. And it's like, that was. And it. Even when I spoke to you, it's like, I'm gonna direct a movie. And then. And it's like, just.
- [80:22]
B
I'm too pressured about it. So this next year, if I have any New Year's Eve resolution, it's to eliminate all preciousness. Eliminate all of it. And just like, all right, how do I make a movie? How do I get it done? I'm not gonna be precious about. But what's gotta be. No, I'm gonna make a fucking movie. How to make a movie?
- [80:41]
A
Can you Say anything about what? The movie.
- [80:43]
B
I don't want to. It is. I can say neo noir, but that's all I'm going to say.
- [80:48]
A
That's pretty good.
- [80:48]
B
Yeah.
- [80:50]
A
What's the status of the Minor Threats TV show?
- [80:53]
B
Right now? It is in limbo. We don't know what is happening with it. They're taking another look. But the thing about it being a TV show or a movie was we always just wanted to do comics. It being optioned as a TV show was like, oh, okay. You know, we're still working on volume three. We're still working on more spinoffs. Right now the TV business is in such disarray that we are now caught in the whirlwind of that disarray. We're gonna wait for things to calm down and then see where we. I mean, we can always. And then one of the offshoots, this one called the Brood, is now being looked at and optioned as maybe a film. So we will see what. But that's always something of, like, I've learned very quickly, don't worry about, oh, this thing was gonna happen, and now it's not gonna happen. Now it'll never happen. No, that run didn't happen. There's other places it's gonna go, and we get to keep building the world, and we own the world. So I'm not being panicky about that, but we wrote a really, really good pilot script that I loved, so we'll see what happens.
- [82:06]
A
Are there things you want to do when Alice goes to college professionally that you feel like not saying she held you back, but, like, you want to see her? No.
- [82:14]
B
I mean, yeah. I mean, when she's like, out in the world, I mean. Yeah, I would love to do. I would love to do some theater in New York. I had a chance to do a play, and the play fell apart. And there's always, like, this. I want redemption. Like, I want my chance to do this. Because it was in a. It was a. A fascinating process, what we were talking about earlier. Sometimes things are just gobbledygook, and then you see it start to form and to be a part of that was incredible. So love did that. Or do a one man show. Yeah. Or.
- [82:41]
A
And like a more narrative version of stand up.
- [82:44]
B
Way more narrative. Yeah. And do it about, like, do take one subject and expand on it for an hour rather than this, this, this, this. But. But again, I. I'm not one of these people that's, like, my kids are holding me back. I get to hang out with her. She's going to have plenty. There's me plenty of times she's like, dad, I got to go. And then I can go do my other stuff.
- [83:04]
A
Yeah. No, it literally just. Man, ultimately, I literally think it's like you're in a short list of the greatest comedians of all time who have never lived in New York City.
- [83:13]
B
Well, yeah, no, I never lived permanently. I lived for like a month when I did a TV show. Yeah, same at the Rivington. And then I lived for three months when I did the play. But I never know. I never lived in New York City.
- [83:23]
A
So that's literally. I was thinking of Broadway. I don't know if you want to get into the story of what happened with the brother.
- [83:29]
B
I'd rather not.
- [83:30]
A
Sure. But I was like, that just seemed like something you might be like, I'd like to remedy that situation.
- [83:35]
B
New York is a great place to live when you are young and broke or old and rich, but if you're middle aged and struggling. So whenever I see, like.
- [83:43]
A
You don't say whenever I see, like.
- [83:45]
B
Spike Lee and Scorsese saying, like, New York, the only place to live. Yeah, the way you live there. Absolutely. It's the only place to live.
- [83:54]
A
In the album, you talk about the thrill of qanon thinking you're a list.
- [83:59]
B
That was so weird.
- [84:00]
A
Does that matter to you?
- [84:01]
B
I mean, no, no, it doesn't matter that I'm a list, to me, comes with a whole other set of problems. I like steadily working. That's what I like. I just love to show up and do my work. Cause a list, you gotta do a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the actual work. And also, you are. I like hopping between genres. I like writing a comic and then acting in something and then doing standup and then, like, I like doing different things. I curated a collection for Hingson and Olson this year. I'm doing like, you know, I like being able to do different things. And a lot of times when you're suddenly a list, you have responsibilities to shareholders. So I just. I like being. I'd rather be a moving target than on an A list which feels pinned down. Does that make sense?
- [84:51]
A
Yeah. Is there someone's career you're jealous of? Is there a person? Is there a model that you're like, well, that's the pinnacle of whatever you're aspiring to or.
- [84:57]
B
I mean, the way that certain people have built, kind of built a career for themselves. I really think that, like, Bo Burnham is doing really fascinating stuff in terms of how do I get My comedy across and. And he very much has a Dan Clowes approach where it's like, I do my work and then I'm gone for a while and then I come out with something else. But I don't need to be. I do need this, unfortunately. But he's like, no, I can vanish for a while.
- [85:30]
A
You don't say and you don't need. It's been four and a half years.
- [85:33]
B
You don't know what it is I'll be doing. So anyone who can be a multi hyphenate, but it's all for stuff that they really, really like to do. Jack White is an incredible example of. He gets to do his music, get to support artists he really likes, gets to keep. And also he gets to keep a form, a form of the art that he does going when he presses his own albums. He wants that tactile. I'm really gotten back into, hey, physical media. We need to preserve this shit. You know, the way the Softy Brothers have gone about making films and keeping it this constant exploration rather than how do I build a franchise, how do I. You know what I mean? What's great is I can just hang back and the next thing that comes out will be amazing. Like they're the kind of people that when they put something out, every. Everyone drops everything to go see it. Yeah, you know that's right.
- [86:34]
A
Oh, hey. Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa.
- [86:36]
B
So is Saldana.
- [86:37]
C
Hey, can you wrap these please?
- [86:38]
B
Wow.
- [86:39]
A
IPhone 17s.
- [86:40]
C
You splurged at T Mobile, you can get four iPhone 17s on them. It's the perfect gift for everyone.
- [86:46]
B
I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.
- [86:48]
C
Well, it's better than socks.
- [86:49]
A
So I have to trade in my old phone, right?
- [86:52]
C
No AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.
- [86:57]
B
Incredible.
- [86:58]
C
In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my aunt Rosa.
- [87:01]
A
Forget that.
- [87:01]
C
Aunt Liz will be jealous.
- [87:02]
B
Sounds like my family drama. Oh, I got it.
- [87:05]
C
I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with.
- [87:07]
B
Hey, where are you going?
- [87:08]
A
To T Mobile. Thanks Sully.
- [87:11]
B
The holidays are better. AT t mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch. Plus four lines for just 25 bucks.
- [87:19]
A
A line with 24 month legal credits and four eligible boardings on essentials for well qualified customers. Auto pay + taxes, fees and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel contact US Finance Agreement 256 gigabytes, $830 required.
- [87:31]
C
Visit T mobile.com Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. Like your mom who treats every bouquet like it's headed straight to the Smithsonian. She'll point to dried stems and say those are from your sister's graduation. Like she's giving a museum tour of decomposed love. Get her a floral Lego set and with Amazon Black Friday week deals, you can save big on toys and games. Finally, flowers worthy of her permanent collection.
- [88:03]
A
What are you hoping for today in the founders? Scrappy, traction oriented grinders and hustlers who will blow through every brick wall in this building to get to where they need to be. Welcome to the pitch season 14 where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest on this season of the show. 10 VCs, 7 startups with one shot to build the company of their dreams. Oh my God, we built the entirely wrong product. Two shots to build the company of their dreams with that intro. Let's go. Season 14 is available now wherever you listen to podcasts, so subscribe to the Pitch so you don't miss it. The season is presented by Adobe. So now it's time for the final segment of our show. It's called Laughing Around. It's like a lightning round, but comedy. Do you have a favorite joke? Joke? Street joke.
- [88:51]
B
My favorite street joke. Traveling salesman knocks on a door, five year old answers, drinking a scotch and smoking a cigar. And he goes, excuse me, are your parents home? And the kid goes, what the fuck do you think?
- [89:05]
A
Nice. Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary comedian living or dead, you're willing to share?
- [89:14]
B
This is making me sad, but I kind of became friends with Robin Williams the last years of his life. I'd see him every Wednesday at Meltdown on Sunset because he loved comic books and we would talk about comics and stuff and he came. I was doing a convenience of comedy show in San Francisco. He showed up. I didn't know he was there till they came in and told me he was there and I was like bring him in. They were like no, he's standing in line, he wants to buy a ticket. He stood in line and just talked to people and then came in, stood in the back room. Didn't want to go up and do his. I just wanted to watch the show, you know, watched Maria Bamford close it out and just destroy and then just sat and talked with us after the show and it was just telling stories about his career with standup and films and you know, it wasn't being and One of the things that I've always remembered about that. Cause he just. It was like us and then a bunch of people from the club. And he wasn't upperforming, he was just telling these stories and they were so compelling and fascinating. And he never got a chance to do like what Springsteen is doing with the one man show where you can actually just sit and go, here's everything that happened. Because that dude lived a life. And so just the fact that he was so effortlessly humble about who he was and how he wanted to interact with people and he really, you know, he was someone that also made mistakes and learned and fought and you know, was a was. He's the best thing you can be in life, which is a seeker. He was always. When you. When I say be a seeker, I mean you never arrive at your destination. But searching while you're alive is what makes the life more vibrant. And that's what he was doing. And he. He showed us how to do that without telling us to do that. Just the way that he talked to us that night, this whole. It was like there was the show that we did and then there was the not show that he did, which was way deeper than any kind of show. And it was him just kind of talking like this the whole time. And everything he said was fascinating and was just like, I can't believe this.
- [91:27]
A
Who's the greatest living comedian?
- [91:29]
B
I think right now the greatest living comedian is definitely Maria Bamford. She is. Cause she is her own category. Yes, she's a comedian. But you know, there's certain people within a profession where you're like, you don't put them anywhere you go. And now a separate chapter about this person. She's her own chapter. I was hoping that's both in form, content delivery and in how she pursues her career. It's all original, it's all brand new and unprecedented and it's amazing.
- [92:05]
A
Yeah, I was hoping you'd say that flat out.
- [92:07]
B
I mean. And no one comes close.
- [92:08]
A
No, it's her. It's prior than her. To me is the conversation in terms of just sort of what can be done with the stand up as a flop.
- [92:17]
B
Yes.
- [92:19]
A
What is something that people think is comedy that you think isn't?
- [92:22]
B
You know what? There's something that people think is comedy and that I used to think was comedy. So again, this is something that I learned better is poverty and especially ignorance that comes from poverty. It took me a while to realize. A lot of times in life, unfortunately, the way the system is set up, you need Money to have access to better nutrition, better education, better experiences to make yourself. So a lot of times when someone is ignorant, and especially if that ignorance comes from poverty, it's because they've been so exploited and denied. You can see what the possibility there could have been. But then they were like, shut down. And a lot of times when that is used for. And look, I'm just as guilty of it. When I was coming up, we were all like, trailer park moron. Well, there's a reason they're stuck in. No one chose that like somebody you know. So there's a lot of like poverty shaming that goes on in this country that has been done under the guise of jokes and it's a bummer. Yeah.
- [93:32]
A
It's interesting you say that going back to your older material. As I said, the words were not the thing that I found most sort of odious. It was. There's a section where you talk about trailer park people and it is horrible. Rough. Yeah. Do you have a joke that never worked, but you'll go to your grave being like, I was right there wrong.
- [93:52]
B
Oh, God. I mean, I. I had. There's a joke that I tried to do about. And maybe I'll come back to it, but basically it's about people that are preppers. And it feels to me like a lot of preppers, they are secretly want. First, they want the world to end because a lot of them, there is this weird frustrated entertainer feeling in them and there's this unspoken but if I'm the one left with the fresh water and the. And the food and I know how to hunt, then people will have to laugh at my jokes and. And they'll also. I'll be able to say all the horrible non PC stuff that I want because they have to depend on me. You know what I mean? So, you know, it's like, I don't want to say anything offensive, but just imagine that he uses the F word in here. But like, hey, you Fs, get up here, I got a fire going and get you guys some water. Like. And they, they can't say nothing to me because I'm the only guy, you know, like, there's that whole kind of. I got. So there is that. And again, when you watch preppers, they're so clearly, they're so intelligent and they're so skilled, but their intelligence and skill and art goes toward some of them, not all of them, but some of them. It goes towards secretly wishing that the world collapses.
- [95:11]
A
Yeah.
- [95:12]
B
And I've just never quite been able to make that work. Yeah.
- [95:15]
A
It's a beautiful portrait of a person, but then it's like, what's the part that it also.
- [95:18]
B
I mean, it's taken me a while. I mean, that's something I keep going back and forth on. It's only recently that I'm really coming at it from a sense of an angle of these are people that I actually love. I love preppers. I love anyone that builds their own kind of world. And a lot of times I was kind of against them or I was looking down on them. And now the more I look at them, it's like there is a real beauty and an art to it, you know, and in a way, a way healthier way of living, you know, that I didn't quite realize I was seeing.
- [95:48]
A
Last one. What is the best time you ever bombed?
- [95:51]
B
The best time I've ever bombed? Well, I mean, I did a bit about this.
- [95:59]
A
Do the full bit.
- [96:00]
B
No, I'm gonna do the full bit. But long story short, I had a horrible stomach flu. Didn't want to cancel the show because this was when I was young, and I thought, you can't be an unprofitable, you know, you can't ever cancel a show. So I went on stage and I. As I was walking toward the mic, guy calls me F word. The whole crowd cheers. And I began to shit my pants. And then I just said. I immediately brought up the feature act and then walked off stage. So that was like, I don't care what kind of bombing story you have. You've never walked on stage, been called a name. The whole audience agrees. And then you start to shit your pants. Like, that's the end. That's the end.
- [96:43]
A
This is the end.
- [96:44]
B
Oh, thank you.
- [96:45]
A
Thank you so much. That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz, and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox, and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we're back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.
- [97:30]
B
And, Doug, here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
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A
Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
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B
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.
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