← GovLove - A Podcast About Local Government
GovLove - A Podcast About Local Government
#714 Breaking Down Silos and Changing Culture with José Madrigal, Durango, CO
00:52:57
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- [00:14]
A
Hey, y'. All. Coming to you from Jacksonville, Florida, this is GovLove, a podcast about local government brought to you by Engaging Local government Leaders. I'm Ben Kittelson. I'm a manager at Raftels and a govlove co host for you today. We've got a great episode for you. We're going to be talking management, organizational culture. But first, the best way to support GovLove is to become an Elgo member. Engaging local Government Leaders is a professional association engaging the brightest minds in local government. And somehow we are also celebrating 10 years of telling local government stories here on the Govlov podcast. And so, recognizing that anniversary, we're opening up our hotline to our dear listeners. You can call us at 720-282-1752 and tell us what you think local government will be like in another 10 years or some of the trends that you've seen impact the profession over the last 10 years. Now, let me introduce today's guest. Jose Madrigal is the city manager for Durango, Colorado, a position he's been in since 2020. He previously served as Deputy City Manager for McKinney, Texas for six years and as Assistant City Manager for Cedar Park, Texas for five years. He's also held various roles for Irving, Texas, Pflugerville, Texas, and he started his career in Lubbock as an intern. In 2025, he was recognized by Government Business Review as one of the top 10 city managers in the U.S. and with that, welcome to GovLove. Jose, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us.
- [01:32]
B
Oh, appreciate it. Thank you so much for allowing me to join.
- [01:34]
A
Yeah. So we have a tradition on the podcast to get to know our guests a little better. Let you warm up a little using a lightning round. So my, my, my first question for you. What's the last thing movie, TV show that you watch that maybe you'd recommend?
- [01:51]
B
Sure. So the last thing I watched was a TV show and it would have been the season finale of Landman Season two.
- [01:58]
A
Oh, yeah. As a Texas man or someone from Texas, your background, does that ring true of your experience or what is. What does Landman stack up?
- [02:10]
B
Yeah, well, as a Texas man, also West Texas, went to school at Texas Tech and oil and everything else. Definitely some parts of it ring true and then some parts not so much. But do enjoy seeing some parts of it that remind me of West Texas, but then also some parts of it that I'm always go back. Midland's not that close to Fort Worth and some other parts of like, that's not really Midland. That doesn't really look like it. But enjoy the show and always good to have a little bit of a break.
- [02:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair. I think my family is from Montana and so Yellowstone had a similar draw for us where it's like, oh, yeah, some of those vistas look familiar. Even though it doesn't quite take that long to get between those two places, if in the real world at least.
- [03:00]
B
Sure.
- [03:01]
A
All right, my next line here for you. What book are you currently reading?
- [03:06]
B
So funny thing about me and most of the people who do know me, I actually am not a big book reader. So I actually will answer this question that I'm more of a podcast person. So if you know me, my big thing is going to be true crime podcasts. That's how I kind of relax and do my book reading time will be more listening to true crime podcasts.
- [03:28]
A
Nice. Do you have one that. That you're. You're hooked on right now or.
- [03:33]
B
The one that I listen to regularly is Crime Junkie. So it's usually updated weekly. And when I do some walks and things like that in between work, when I can get like a 15 minute break, I'll listen to one and just kind of listen to it throughout the week and kind of finish it up at the end of the week.
- [03:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, I resemble that remark more and more of my. What probably used to be reading time is now, you know, spent doing chores and listening to podcasts and like. Yeah, so, yeah, I feel you there. All right, then the next linear question for you. What's the first concert that you went to?
- [04:06]
B
Yeah, it's a good old concert. New Kids on the Block was my first concert.
- [04:11]
A
Nice. Nice. Do they still get play in your. In your house or in the car or.
- [04:17]
B
No, not at all. Not actually. Wasn't even a big New Kids on the Block fan. It was. My cousin was, and when I was visiting him in San Antonio, I think I was, man, maybe like 8 or 9, maybe 10 years old. I know I would have been older than that. I think it was in middle school. That was a concert that he wanted to go to and my aunt took us, so my first one.
- [04:40]
A
Love it, Love it. All right, then my last lighting question for you. Where do you go for inspiration?
- [04:47]
B
You know, I was thinking about that and I'm like, there's not really a place that I go for inspiration, but where do I go when I'm thinking about ideas that come to my head and things that I guess I go really for thinking usually will be in my mornings when I'm on my peloton going for a run on my tread. That's usually where I have some time early in the morning, wake up early, get a run in usually around 5, 45 is where I start. So when I'm on those runs or usually when I come up with ideas of things to try out at work or things that I'm looking to focus on or maybe things that I want to give a speech about at our executive leadership team meetings, that's usually where the inspiration comes from is when I'm on those runs.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, I. Yeah, that's my experience as well. Like you turn the brain off a little bit and all of a sudden you can make some connections that if you're just thinking about it, it wouldn't, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be able. They wouldn't, may not make, you know, so, so very cool. Well, awesome. Well, one thing I always like to ask folks before we kind of get into some of your day to day work and your career path and the work you're doing in Durango is how folks ended up in this field. And so for you, what was your path to local government? How did you end up kind of in the place in this career and in the place you are today?
- [06:01]
B
Yeah. Wow. So I went to school at Texas Tech. I got my undergrad in political science and I actually thought the original plan was to go to law school. And I took a constitutional law class when I was an undergrad and I just, it didn't really stick with me. So law school really got weeded out pretty quickly. And so when I graduated with my degree in political science, I realized quickly that wasn't going to do very much for me. So I went into the master's of public administration program at Tech. And one of the first classes I took in my first semester was city management. And the city manager of Lubbock, Bob Cass at the time came and did a speech or guest lecture, if you will, at our class and talked about this career called city management. Really talked about what his day to day job was, that it was very different. Really talked about all the challenges of working with these different departments and council and citizens and it just kind of hooked me. And right after that class, it was the spring semester, I signed up for an internship that summer. So it would have been the summer of 2002. And ever since then I've been working in city government. So really was that first guest lecture by Bob Kass at my MPA program that got me into local government and I've never looked back.
- [07:27]
A
Yeah. Yeah. How did, so if you weren't quite sure on what to do, how did you end up choosing an MPA as a, as a grad degree? Like what, what led you to that?
- [07:38]
B
You know, I always think that at some point the I, I call them God winks, where you just don't know what you were going to do and something just leads you that way. So I started college when I was 17 and I graduated when I was 21 and I took a semester off and I had actually gone back to Austin where I was from, and I was just kind of, you know, hanging out, having some fun, hanging out with some friends. And one night I was going out with some friends and my mom had checked the mail and I had taken the mail out with me as I was going out to hang out with some friends. And at the end of the night, I was opening up my mail and one of the letters was from the Texas Tech University, the Masters of Public Administration School. I opened it up and they had asked me if I would apply and they thought I'd be a good fit and kind of just thought that night, like, you know, what else am I doing? I think it'd be something to give it a shot. Literally within a span of a week and a half, I had taken my GREs, I had applied and I was accepted. And right after that it was almost about, it was about maybe three weeks before Thanksgiving, so the beginning of November, I had headed up to Lubbock, found an apartment, got a part time job at the head of cleaners, and started, you know, settling in to start that next, start in January, that spring semester, my MPA program.
- [09:05]
A
Wow. Amazing. Oh my God. Yeah. No, I, I have a very similar kind of experience where I like, I, I knew I wanted, I got a, my, my undergrad in politics and I knew I didn't want to work for an elected official, but that was, and I didn't want to go to law school. And so I like, I was like, well, I can apply for these, this program and see if I like it. It's better than, you know, trying to get a real job. And yeah, similar. Sort of took one local government class and fell in love. And so that's, that's, I'm glad I'm not alone in that. Like, it was kind of a whim, but also like, I feel very fortunate that I ended up on the path I'm on today.
- [09:39]
B
So, yeah, I think looking back at it it's kind of funny, you just realizing the freedom you have when you're that young, just being able to go, like, wow, I have the ability to just pick up and go to school and let's give it a try. Where now it's like, wow. I mean, with family commitments and everything else, there's no way I could do that now. And it's kind of enjoy that freedom when you're in your early 20s and able to just to pick up and go and try new things. It's really cool.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah. Yeah. When you were kind of early in your career, was there something that you got to work on or that, you know, either in that first job or in the first couple where they're like, oh, this is the right choice, and made you kind of, like, want to stick with it or helped confirm kind of the career choice. Yeah.
- [10:22]
B
When I was. My internship really, I think, kind of started off with an awesome mentor. His name was Craig Farmer. He was the managing director of Planning and transportation at the City of Lubbock. So when I applied at the city of Lubbock, I didn't get the cool internship in the city manager's office, wink, wink. But I got to work for this guy, Craig Farmer, and he was the managing director of planning and transportation, and he was over planning, transportation, code enforcement, emergency management, streets, airport. And he was awesome. He allowed me to work under every one of those departments. Building inspection was another one, rotated me around, took me to meetings, allowed me to be in a lot of the meetings that he was in, pulled me aside, really explained to me council meetings, how all the departments worked. And so I really got a great understanding of all of the real operational departments. And in the end, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. So it really just gave me an understanding of how city operations work and how city government worked, and it really provided a love for me of city government in. In how all the operational parts work. So when I eventually did go up to the city manager's office, it really provided me an edge on a lot of people because I knew how the operational side worked and really was able to connect very well and be able to help the city manager's office with constituent concerns and even on the budgeting side and help on getting. Getting things and projects done because I had that operational experience. And I think that really was able to give me a true love of what city government was about and really put me on a. A path to get some really quick success.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well. And. And, you know, that's where the rubber meets the road in those operational departments. Like, and having that perspective is, I don't know, it helps, it helps connect like some of the strategic priorities or some of the council discussions to like the actual work of the organization when you, when you know what, how those places, you know, operate.
- [12:31]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. It was a, it was a blessing in disguise. Right at first I was kind of like, oh, bummed I didn't get to go to the city manager's office. But now if I didn't have that first step, I wouldn't be where I am today for sure.
- [12:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about Durango. So first, you know, for our listeners that, that haven't been or you know, want to plan a visit, like can you a little bit about, about Durango, kind of what the, the place is like and, and maybe what, what attracted you to, to the city manager job there?
- [13:00]
B
Sure. So Durango is in southwest Colorado. We're a town of about 20,000. We are 6,500ft above sea level. We are in the mountains. We're a mountain town, but we are not a winter town. Our height of tourist is actually in the summer. We're known for mountain biking, hiking, camping. We do have a river that goes through our town, so whitewater rafting is a big thing during the summer. We are the town center of the La Plata County. So our County's probably about 60,000. We are about 45 minutes from Farmington, New Mexico, which is about 60,000 population, about an hour from the Four Corners. So we are pretty Southwest if you will. We do have a commercial central airport that has five non stop dailies to Denver from United. We have American Airlines that does three non stop dailies to DFW and two non stop dailies to Phoenix. So we're rather connected for a 20,000 population city. It's something that some people you would say like wow, how does this exist? We also have a four year college for Lewis College. So we are a really cool town that for 20,000 definitely punches above its weight class if you will. And so it's a really good place if you love the outdoors and you love being in the mountains. It's a, it's a great place to live. And we also do have more restaurants here per capita than San Francisco. So we offer a lot for people who are wanting to come visit and be here in Durango and would highly recommend coming here during the summer.
- [14:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. Very cool and interesting. Like the mountain town but not a winter town. So like The. I assume you still have some of the challenges of being like kind of, you know, development in the mountain area, but not the like need to worry about tourism kind of in the, in that kind of winter season. It's just. And I assume there's no like skiing or that kind of thing. It's, it's. Anyway, that's interesting kind of difference there where you like, I got some of those same challenges as maybe like a, you know, Breckenridge or whatever, but not, not quite the same.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah. So we do have a. I mean, purgatory is about 30 minutes north of us. What differentiates us from like a ski town is usually those ski towns have a mountain like right in their town.
- [15:30]
A
Yeah.
- [15:31]
B
Which we don't. And so purgatory is 30 minutes north. So most of the people who are going to Purgatory for skiing actually end up staying there in the housing that's up by Purgatory. So, you know, they pack up with their groceries on their way up there and they stay up there for the week and maybe come down for dinner or something like that during the, the time that they're up here. So it's not really packed or anything downtown when they're up here. However, during the summer, that's when we're packed because we also have the, the railroad here at Durango. Narrow gauge Silverton Railroad. A lot of people do like to take that up the mountain to a town called Silverton. There's a lot of beautiful scenery on that train that you go up to Silverton, a big tourist attraction as well. So that is kind of our, our busy time is the summer. We're really packed on during this portions of it. So it's an interesting part because we really don't really check the box because a lot of people even in Colorado think we're a winter town. They're like, oh, wow, winter must be really busy. We're like, no, actually it's our slow time. Summer is really when, when we get packed.
- [16:36]
A
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Well, and so when you were considering, you know, taking the city manager role, what, what about the organization or the community was like, hey, I'm willing to leave, you know, my, my background in Texas to, to go to this kind of new state, new area and take on this, this role.
- [16:54]
B
Yeah. So, you know, I had never actually going to Colorado was not part of my plan. I had never thought that I was actually going to leave the state of Texas. My wife, who is a. Runs her own business is in public transportation consulting, had actually been to Durango probably maybe a year and a half before this position opened. And when she came back, jokingly, a year and a half had said, you know, there's this town, Durango. And I know we never would leave Texas, but if they ever had a city manager opening, you know, we should check it out.
- [17:31]
A
Yeah.
- [17:32]
B
So you fast forward a year and a half later, a recruiter called and said, I have this perfect spot for you. It's called Durango, Colorado. And obviously I just started laughing and he thought, like I was laughing at him. And he said, did I say something funny? And I said, well, no, actually I would have normally said, I'm not interested. But my wife a year and a half ago said, if there was any town outside of Texas that we should look at, Durango Colorado was it. So you actually hit somehow the jackpot. So let me talk to her and start taking a look. So never set foot in Durango. I started taking a look. And one of the things that I got to tell you that really attracted me to Durango, because in my cities, you know, I started in lubbock, which was 220,000 population. Cedar park was 40,000. That was my smallest city when I was there. So 40,000. And by the time I left, it was 60,000. And I was an assistant city manager there. Then I went to Irving, which was about 225,000, was an assistant city manager there, and then was a deputy city manager in McKinney, which was about when I got there, 190. And it was about 215 the time I left. So all way bigger cities, right?
- [18:42]
A
Yeah.
- [18:43]
B
So, you know, the first part is I looked at this, I saw, wow, Durango, 20,000. Like, you know, am I going to be bored? Like, what is this going to be? But as I looked into the city, I looked at, you know, well, how much, how many, how many employees do they have? And right off the bat I saw that it was 350 full time employees. I'm like, wow, that's a lot. We're now at a.425 full time employees. The budget at that time was 170 full time or 170 million all in. I'm like, that's a big, that's a big budget for 20,000. Like, okay. And then I started looking at what are the services that we provide? And I looked at it, I'm like, we are a full service city. In fact, we provide more services than most of the cities that I've been in because we do our own trash, we do our own recycling. We do our own water, we do our own wastewater. We have a commercial airport that I had mentioned earlier that has all these connections that go to it. We have our own public transportation system. We have a parks and recreation system that's second to none. And I said, I've got all of these services with a, you know, really meaty 425 right now, full time employees, something I can sink my teeth into. So I've got all the, the services I can provide to. With 425 employees, that's a good enough size city, but good enough that I can also have a real positive impact into. And so it's like, I'm not going to be bored and I've got a lot of things that I can still do and be a part of. It just kind of fit really well. And I don't think you'll ever find a city anywhere in the country that's this size with this amount of services that you provide. And it fit perfect. I'm like, this is great. There's a lot of things I can do here. And I threw my hat in the ring and I think I can, you know, really make a positive impact.
- [20:32]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's true. Like when you have those towns that are smaller but like provide, you know, other services that like maybe a regional body would in a big metro area, like, there's just more to do and. Yeah, that's very, that's, that's, that's very cool. So one of the things, you know, I wanted to be, I wanted to ask you about was like, how you, you know, talk about organizational change and culture, but like, when you're stepping in as a new city manager, like, how did you first, like, just get to know the organization? And I also realized when I was prepping for this that like, you started during kind of the peak of COVID too, which I'm sure impacted your ability to get to know all the staff. So, like, what, what was that experience? Like, how did you try and approach that?
- [21:11]
B
Yeah, that was, it was interesting because, you know, one of the things that I had noticed is, you know, I accepted a position and came here and I hadn't met all of my directors in person. In fact, I didn't meet. I started in September. I didn't actually meet everyone in person until like March. Oh, wow. Because of COVID it's just kind of weird, right? Those are weird times. And even now as we're here in 2026, it's still kind of weird to kind of go back and think about that. But when I started in September, you know, it was a part where I had a hundred day plan. And I had already presented that to the council when I first interviewed of here's how I was going to go about it. I had presented it to my directors when I first started. And it was a first thing of I'm going to assess the organization. I'm going to meet with all of my directors, I'm going to meet with my staff, with town hall, I'm going to meet with our community partners and I'm just going to ask three questions, you know, what are we doing well, what could we do better? And if you were me, what are the things that you would change? And in those hundred days, my commitment to the organization was I wasn't going to make any changes. And I think that's important because within those 100 days I wanted to be able to assess what is going on. And without this part of I'm going to make changes without knowing what those changes are going to do. Yeah, I think you need 100 days to kind of realize before I think I need to make the change. Let me just see what that impact is. Because I think a lot of times we make a change really quick thinking like, oh, this is what's going to happen without seeing what that impact of that change is going to be down the road. Right. So I went for 100 days, did a lot of assessments, took a lot of notes, trying to figure out what I'd like to change, met with everyone, and then at the end of the 100 days kind of came back, met with the council, went after my 100 day report, kind of found out what I was going to, what I had found and the changes I was going to make and went over the changes, went over the changes with my directors, which is the most important part, and talked with my directors and, you know, really decided to kind of come with them and talk about, you know, what it's going to be like as we move forward. And one of the first parts was being honest with them. And one of the honest parts of it was changes were going to happen.
- [23:29]
A
Yeah.
- [23:30]
B
And that part of it was, you know, team, I'm gonna be honest with you. When I applied for this position, there was two finalists. A guy from Texas and an internal candidate. They picked the guy from Texas. And when your council picks a guy from Texas, that should tell you that they want change.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:53]
B
So change is going to occur. But what I am going to tell you is change is going to occur in a meaningful way that makes sense for the values that this community has. Not what I want it to be. Not that I'm going to try to make this be the organization that I came from or the organizations that I've come from, but what is my leadership style wrapped in the values of this organization and this community? And that's what I have done. I have melded my organizational style within the culture. And I think that's important for city managers that are going into new communities, that are new states, that are new places that you have to embrace the culture and the community that you're in. You have to show them that you are wanting to be part of their community, that you're wanting to embrace what they embrace. Right. You're not there to tell them that you're. You're. You're better, you know, a different way, that their way is wrong. You're wanting to say, like, hey, I appreciate the way that you operate and what you hold value. Let me see what I can add to add more value and how I can help improve and help, you know, add more value into the things that you find important. And that's really kind of the. The part that I started with that framework on is how can I help you all improve and show you the leadership system that I think will help us all move forward in a way that we can all improve together?
- [25:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's really fascinating because you're right. The mere fact of picking it outside candidate means that they wanted some change, but they don't necessarily want McKinney, Texas, to be implemented in Durango. They want. You're right. And it's probably last. The change will last longer if it's within the context of that culture and that. The values of that organization. So, yeah, that's a really good perspective. Like, so when you're talking with your staff, like, is that how you're getting to know kind of that culture, or is it also, like, part of engaging with your elected body or the community? Like, what was kind of the mix that helped you understand some of the context you needed to say, this is how I'm going to do my, my leadership style and my kind of changes within this. This overall culture?
- [26:09]
B
You know, one of the little. I think it's a lot of the little things. One of the parts that I learned early on is just, you know, what is the. The environment? How do they dress here? And it's little things, right. I came from an environment, the Dallas area, that was suit and tie every day. You know, I had a lot of suits And I had a lot of ties. And here, it's not suit and tie. You. You'll stand out. You'll be awkward, you'll be odd. It's jeans. You could wear jeans every day, but it's very casual. And I. I dressed down to that. And I wanted to be part of the team, Right. I knew that I wanted to be part of them. Like, I didn't want to say, like, okay, well, I'm going to bring my style here. It was important for me to be part of them, to embrace. Like, if this is what Durango is, then I need to be part of that. Yeah, I want to be part of that. I want to show them that I'm invested in being part of what they. What they find value in is comfort. Right. Their style. The second part is, well, being and time off is really important here. When it snows, man, they're all at the mountain. People are taking days off and going to the mountain. And for me, that is a complete change for me.
- [27:29]
A
Yeah.
- [27:30]
B
Like, the first time Covid was here, snow happened, and everyone was at the mountain. And I'm calling people, and nobody's at the office. I'm like, whoa, what is going on? And the person comes in my office like, well, Jose, it's a pow, pow day. And they're like, it's a powder day. I'm like, what's that? They're like, they're all at the mountain. I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, when it snows, everybody goes to the mountain. I'm like, oh, well, the culture and identity that I have come from.
- [28:00]
A
Yeah.
- [28:00]
B
You know, in Dallas wars, you work, you work, and you work and you work and you work and you work. Nobody took time off here. Time off is important. So it's little things like that that I recognize. That's what's important here. So I have to change my expectations to that and understand that when it snows, it's a powder day. And I got to say, like, all right, who's going to the mountain? Right. And you know what I've done before? When it's a powder day? Guess what? I've gone to the mountain. And it's the little things like that that I believe that when they see me do that, they don't see me now as the complete outsider. They start to see me as one of them. And I think that's important. Will I always be one? I don't know. Right. I always still have a little bit of Texas in me, and that's okay. But I think it does mean a lot of importance of, like, I'm trying. And I think that's important for everyone. You know, they want you to. It's like being on a team. They want. Everybody wants the new guy to try to be part of the team, right? Yeah, they like seeing that. And I think that's an important part. It's the little things like that of, you know, finding out what they value and making parts of, like, yeah, you know what? I can value that, too. That's part of what's important to them. Then it's going to be important to me. And then when you do that, they're going to be more apt to look at your leadership style and say, okay, well, if he's hoping, if he's bending our way, let's bend his way, too.
- [29:21]
A
Yeah, right.
- [29:22]
B
If he's given us an inch, let's give an inch for him. And we've built a strong, cohesive team that I've got to tell you, I've built. I've been with a lot of teams, a lot of great teams. I've not had anyone that's been stronger than this team here. And the genuineness that these. That this team cares for each other.
- [29:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. That perspective. So, you know, once you get a sense of that culture, like, what were some of the things that you wanted to change? And maybe it's just establishing the team that you referenced and kind of getting everybody on the. On the same page and, you know, rowing in the same direction, but, like, what we're doing, hey, you got a sense of this culture. What were some of the changes that you work to implement and, you know, work to build that team?
- [30:05]
B
The first one was we were very siloed. You know, it was a very. When I got here, one of the biggest things that I was, the concern that I got from the director level was the loudest voice controlled the room. Yeah, the loudest voice got the most money. And when it came to budgets, and that's what I wanted to change. I wanted to change us being a team. So I established an executive leadership team. We came up with our values that we hold dear when we work together. We meet monthly, the first Friday of every month for a half day, all of us together, we discuss the issues that we see for our organization. What we say in those meetings are confidential. When we go into those meetings, we represent the organization first. We don't represent our departments first. It's the organization first. We can present the perspectives of our department, but it's the organization that we look out first and we're respectful of each other. And you've seen the silos break down and you've seen everyone now look at it as the organization first, even if it means your department sacrifices for the benefit of another department, knowing that the organization benefits from it. And our employee survey results, we're about to go for another one here in February. We do them every two years. The first result, February, the first one we did, you know, set the foundation. We did one. Two years after that, we had double digit increases in just about every category, beat national benchmarks just about across the board. We're about to do it again. See where we go from there. You can see that the culture has improved throughout our city. So you saw that it's working. And I think that's the most important part of building that trust within our department heads. And it doesn't even have to be me now doing it. They check in on each other, they're there for each other, we work together. They continue to focus on the mission. Even during times when council meetings get difficult, they're there to support each other. There's a message that goes back and forth that we have our own ELT chat, that they're always like, hey, keep it up, keep your head up, we got you, don't worry about it. Or great job. Really good presentation. They're cheering each other on and it's not even having to be forced. And I think that's the most important part.
- [32:30]
A
Yeah, well, can you, can you talk more about that shift? Because like, I imagine a lot of our listeners are like, yeah, siloed organization sounds familiar. That happens a lot in local government. Like, was it just the act of getting folks together and like how you constantly deliberated as a team that helped start to shift that, or were there other strategies or things that, that you were able to kind of implement that, like, help help bring those, those, you know, different silos together over time?
- [32:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's a lot of strategies. Right. And I think there's a lot of parts that I can say like, oh, we did this, we did that, we developed our values. I think the overall arching thing though is we commit to spending four hours the first Friday of every month together.
- [33:16]
A
Yeah, right.
- [33:17]
B
And time together, meaningful time together, talking about issues. And you know, every time we go in there, we're like, oh, we don't really have much to talk about. 9 out of 10 times we're there to 12. Right? We're there talking. We're There discussing. And you can have strategies and everything else that goes in there. And that's great and it's important. But I do think what organizations lose and it's hard is to continue to have that meaningful time. Because it's so easy, right? To go like, oh, we've got this Friday, I've got this other meeting I gotta go to, I can't make it. And people start making that Friday meeting. And people start, you know, not making it important and putting other things there. And all of a sudden the group that used to always be there, now it's only half and it's a quarter. And then it just fizzles away. And it's that first, you know, year where you just gotta know, this is the most important thing that we. That we do. And we've made it the most important thing that we do. Now, Fridays are time for. People have vacations and there are times we have people who miss. Right. But very rarely do people miss more than one. I mean, it is. Out of every time. It is. If I said, what is the average attendance? It's over 95%. I mean, it is the most important meeting. And we say that every time to each other, and we know it. This is the most important meeting we have on our schedule every month.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah.
- [34:44]
B
If we don't make it, it's because we have like a. It's a vacation, a family vacation, that. Or you know, a conference, and that's it. But if we're in town, there's no other meeting that's more important than this. And we can't substitute this meeting. Like, if you're. If the director's out of town, their assistant director can't go. It's their spot.
- [35:03]
A
Yeah.
- [35:03]
B
And you. That is what continues to build that camaraderie. Right. That's what continues to build that time, that space that I'm here, I see you, we talk, we discuss. And that's what builds that, that kinship, that teamwork.
- [35:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. It builds the relationship is the time spent together. Yeah. Because otherwise if you're just interacting in, I don't know, 30 minute increments or every other month like that, that it's hard to build that relationship with people that you don't work with regularly. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:32]
B
Even an hour. Right. And people like, oh, an hour, that's not enough. That's an hour is like you got what, 15 minutes of small talk. By the time it's like 50 minutes in, most people are starting to pack their bags and ready to go.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah.
- [35:44]
B
You do a four Hour commitment, man, that, that's, that's good time, solid time. You're, you're in there talking and making connections.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah. You're getting to the root of it. Yeah. Well, for someone that might want to implement a team meeting like this in their organization. So what are some, and I know you don't want to reveal what's the nature of the discussion necessarily, but what are the types of agenda items that are you digging into? This is a big issue that's coming up on a council meeting next week. Is it kind of longer term trend things? Is it strategic plan progress? What are the topic areas that y' all are kind of spending those four hours on?
- [36:24]
B
Sure. So we always start the meeting with what I call, we have shout outs. So the first 15 to 20 minutes are ELT shout outs. So anything that we want one department to shout out another, another leadership team member for something they've done well done through the month. Right. So you may have, you know, somebody shouting out our IT director want to hey, shout out your team for helping us with whatever project.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah.
- [36:51]
B
So we do 15 minutes of shout outs that go back and forth and we do that. So just a great way to kind of start off the meeting on the positive note.
- [36:58]
A
Right?
- [36:58]
B
Yeah, let's, let's shout out all the good things we've done this month. Let's recognize that portion of it. Another standard thing that we'll have, we're also our governance committee. So we're on the Baldrige journey. Right. So we have cross functional teams that are working on some of our strategic plan initiatives, some program initiatives. So we have these cross functional teams that are working on initiatives throughout our organization. So if they've come to a part, a program or initiative they'd like to initiate through the organization, they present to our executive leadership team. And so they'll come in to that they'll present in the executive leadership team. The executive leadership team can ask questions and then at the end the executive leadership team gives the yay or nay if that's going to proceed to be initiated in the organization. So we have a section for that on the governance. We also then have an ability for anyone on the ELT to place an agenda item on for the ELT's discussion. So these things can range from anything. Right. HR, you know, if they have something where they want to, maybe they're thinking about implementing a policy, they'll put it on there and get the ELT's feedback if it has a policy, if community development has, you know, anyone that has A policy, a thought, a program, something that's going to affect the organization. They put it on there so they can get feedback from the elt. Yeah, so we usually have two or three of those items of what's, what's on there or anything else. If there's disruption with a couple departments, there's an opportunity for them to put that on the agenda. You know, I, I'm. We. Public Works is not getting along with finance and we want to, we're going to talk it out and so we'll put it on the agenda and we'll talk it out and so we have those portions on it. So those are what our agenda items usually revolve around. And so it's once a month and usually we have three or four and then at the end we always have just kind of a roundtable wrap up anything that for the good of the group is what I call any events that are coming up that month that the group might want to know about, kind of updates, things like that, and then that's the meeting.
- [39:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. So it's not, you're not like in the weeds necessarily, but you're, you're thinking about the stuff that's impacting the whole organization as a group and deliberating on it as a group rather than like, you know, going through an agenda, the upcoming council agenda or something, something like that. It's, it's a little higher level than that. More strategic maybe.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah, we do, yeah, we do have agenda meetings and those are the week before every council meeting where we go over the agenda and present. But that's a separate time. Right. So that's its own meeting. This is, these are things evolving. The organization, like programs, policies, discussions on that portion, anything that might affect the organization goes through the ELT and we discuss it. There's.
- [40:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, well, and you mentioned like, you know, you've seen the results of this and the team is a little more closer knit. They're supporting one another. Like, you know, was there a point like after you'd implemented these meetings where like you saw that shift change and. Or you're like, oh, this is starting to work.
- [40:23]
B
Yeah, like, you know, you see it and you see people go through. And I think where you start into work is that we never. I'm gonna take the never back. The, the, the times that departments are blindsided have decreased dramatically. Yeah, right. Where you get on an agenda item and something comes up and you have that department HR is like, I don't even know that this was coming. And you're like, oh, man, you know, that. That sinking feeling right. Where it's about to go to the council meeting and finance is like, yep. Didn't even know this was like. That stuff is like, very rarely, if at all happens because anything that evolves that has already been flushed through the elt.
- [41:05]
A
Yeah.
- [41:05]
B
How are we going to go through our budget calendar that's already gone through the ELT meeting? Right. Do we need to change how we're doing our CIP budgeting process? That's already been discussed through this elt. So we are way more coordinated with anything that has a organizational impact, and you can see that. And we're coming up with better projects. The things and the ideas and programs that are coming up are actually including everybody. And it's not. It's at a part to where it's not defensive. It's, you know, coming at. We're trying to get everything to succeed.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, obviously this is immensely valuable for the leadership team and setting the kind of the culture of the organization. How are you seeing this kind of like trickle down to the rest of the staff?
- [41:52]
B
For the rest of the staff? I think it's critically important when they know their director gets along with other directors. Directors, that breaks down the silo, too. Right. When they see, oh, you know what, my director gets along with the library director. Great. Then that means I can have relationships there, too. Yeah, right there. It's that part of, like, when they see the leadership leading by example, then they know they can have those relationships, too.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah.
- [42:16]
B
And when they're starting to see that we. When public works, you know, they're talking about, here's what's going on in the library, then they feel more a part of the organization. And I think that's the part of everyone's knowing what's going on. Doesn't mean that we're perfect by any stretch of the meat in the means. But, you know, it's just another part of us showcasing that we're. We're communicating across the organization at a leadership team level.
- [42:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then those connections that are happening at the staff level aren't like, you know, secret connections there.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [42:49]
A
The expectation almost. Yeah,
- [42:53]
B
for sure.
- [42:55]
A
Well, cool. Well, one thing, you know, as I was prepping for our conversation today, I saw, you know, in 2024, you guys adopted a new strategic plan. I'm. I'm curious, you know, I'd love to hear your perspective on kind of the development of that and how kind of that that's been part of the, the culture, you know, change and that you wanted to see and maybe a little bit on, you know, how the implementation is going as kind of part of this convergence conversation around culture and kind of setting that leadership.
- [43:22]
B
Yeah, I mean the strategic plan has gone really well. You know, it really was just kind of more of a model off our previous one. We were at a kind of a track doing it every like two years and we kind of realized that that was just a lot of work doing it every two years. So we did kind of a. I think it was a. We went to a five year strategic plan. So we went from 2024 to 2029 and just kind of beefed it up a little bit more. We have a whole, which is about 70 of our employees at all different levels working on it. So it's a constant movement. It really didn't change much from the operational side. We're continuously working through it with the 70 employees of remodifying it. Making sure that we go through the strategic plan is the part that the public really sees. But we have a tactical plan that we kind of really go the meat and guts of how we actually are achieving and going through and tracking it, that our employees are constantly working on it and the work that they consistently do to continue to. To forward on those progress has just been tremendous. And it's awesome just seeing them being consistent and working through the plan.
- [44:29]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. You mentioned you're on the Baldrige journey. Where are you at in that. In that journey? What is that looking like?
- [44:38]
B
Yeah, so we're actually. So last year we're going through the Sterling foundation, which is out of Florida for the state award. Last year we went through the process, but we weren't applying for the award yet for the state award. And we did get a best practices award from them. Wasn't like the state award, but just a best practices recognition award that they gave us last year. This year we are actually going through the award process again, but are applying for the award. We are going through the, the examination as we speak. We are going through our calls right now this week. So we've actually gone through a listing of calls through our categories. So we'll see how it continues to go. The site visit for our examiners will actually be next month. So we'll have them come into the organization and go forward. So we'll see here probably around March, April of how we did cross our fingers. But you know, it's a journey really. It isn't about the award, it's just how can we continue to improve on what we're doing? But just seeing the calls from this year from compared to last year, our organization continues just to dramatically improve. And it's just awesome seeing, you know, all different levels, especially like our line level employees answering questions of how we use our data to make decisions and how our systems are set up to continuously improve. It's, it's great seeing that disseminate down into the organization and seeing the progress that we've made. It's night and day from September of 2020.
- [46:12]
A
Yeah, well, yeah, I was going to say that usually going through the examination is a culmination of years of work. So can you talk a little about like the building that buy in for to going for this and like what that how you've kind of, you know, you know, how the organization has kind of, you know, developed a plan or what. The approach has been around going for the Baldrige.
- [46:33]
B
Yeah. So, you know, I outlawed the B word for three years. Everybody, you know, I had some folks when I first came here, you know, it was always in my mind when I was in Irving, we were fortunate enough to be a city that won one. And it's a very complicated and very sophisticated process to get through. But it really isn't more. It isn't any extra work. But for those that don't know it within your employee levels, that's the easiest way for them to say. It's like, oh, you're just giving us more work. It's like, it's not giving you more work. It's just tracking what you say that you're doing. It's proving that what you're doing is actually accomplishing what you're saying that you're doing. Right. And it's putting a purpose behind what you're doing, tracking what you're saying that you're doing. And you've got to have the culture right. You just can't come out and say, hey, we're going to go through this Baldrige Award and Baldrige process because everyone's going to be like, what?
- [47:37]
A
What are we doing?
- [47:38]
B
We can't do it. And so as I kind of brought it out to a few people at the very beginning when I got here of like, here's kind of where I'm going. They're like, this is great, let's go. And I'm like, no. And they're like, what? I was like, we will not mention the B word. We are nowhere near that. We will not speak of said word. And so you, because you gotta build, right. You've got to set a foundation like, just like anything else. You just can't build a house on sand. Yeah, you got to build the foundation. You got to get your organization right. I mean, we got to build an executive leadership team. We've got to build a strategic plan, we've got to build a budget. We've got to build like these basic fundamental practices that build this foundation. And finally, after about three years, as we kind of had some of the things that we were already doing, KPI strategic plan budgets that were being awarded, you know, for gfoa, those, those awards. And I'm like, okay, we're thinking strategically now. We are ready.
- [48:40]
A
Yeah.
- [48:40]
B
And we then began talking about the Balderage. And even with that, you had a lot of pushback because it's hard. You know, it's, it's not the. I just want to do my job. I'm like, yeah, that's a great spot about wanting to do your job. But are we doing the job that the citizens, our customers want? Right. Are we actually meeting the needs or are we just doing stuff, just to do stuff? And we're getting there, right? We're getting there. And I think you're starting to see the light bulbs now are turning on of like, oh, I see what we're doing. Yeah. You know, and it's getting there and it's going and it keeps going through, but it takes time. And so it does take that part of, you know, three years of building the foundation. Here we are. We'll see if we're fortunate enough to get the award. My guess is we're probably going to need one more year.
- [49:23]
A
Yeah.
- [49:24]
B
Because I still see some gaps that we have, but we're making incredible process and incredible improvements. And it's just so excited to see like where we are today. And I think sometimes it's, it's hard for people to believe if they would have seen where we were In September of 2020, I think most of them would be shocked.
- [49:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well. And to your point, the process is, is the valuable part, not just the thing at the end. That's how you change the organization and change how things are done. That's very cool. Well, good luck with the review. We'll keep our fingers crossed for you over here at Govlab.
- [50:00]
B
Appreciate that, my man.
- [50:03]
A
And I know we're approaching of our time together, but what's next? What do you, what are you working on that our listeners should look out for? What do you got coming in the next, you know, coming months or years?
- [50:13]
B
You know, that's a good question. You know, what's next right now is just Baldrige, man, You know, like, kind of looking and seeing what really. What. What are the examiners on that feedback report? What are they going to come up with? Right. Because I think that's the. Those are the gold nuggets of the gaps that we have. And how are we going to solve them? Because I think that's where the innovation is going to come from of like, okay, how are we going to solve some of these? And what are the systems that we can come up with that are going to. That are going to solve them? And so when that comes up, I'll be sure to throw that out there on LinkedIn and let people know. But there's a couple things we've thrown out there, like our executive leadership team, how we make decisions, some of our ways of our Seikos and ways that we've kind of continued to improve, and some of our systematic models that we've thrown out there. So if you have a chance to look at some of my posts, I think there's some good information examples out there that we've used.
- [51:04]
A
Perfect. Cool. Well, yeah. So our listeners should give you a follow and stay tuned with the work plan that will come once the reviewers are done for y'.
- [51:14]
B
All.
- [51:15]
A
Now, the hardest question always for our guests. If you could be the Gov Love DJ and pick the exit music for this episode, what. What song would you pick?
- [51:22]
B
I was thinking about this one and I was trying to figure out, like, what would tie into it. And I came up with the song Home by Philip Phillips. And the reason I would pick and pick this one is because it does tie into the idea of building and improving the place people call home. And I think that's what we do in local government.
- [51:40]
A
Oh, lovely. What a great sentiment. Our producer will get that queued up for you. And that ends our episode for today. Jose, thank you so much for coming on and talking with me. I really enjoyed this. This has been fun.
- [51:51]
B
Awesome, man. I appreciate it. I've enjoyed it as well. Thank you.
- [51:54]
A
Yeah. And for our listeners, govlove is brought to you by engaging local government leaders. And the best way to support Gov Love is to become an ELG member. You can reach us online at elg.org govlove or at our page on LinkedIn. And subscribe to Gov Love on your favorite podcast app. If you're already subscribed, go tell a friend, a colleague, a neighbor about this podcast. Help us celebrate 10 years of gov love by calling our hotline at 720-228-21752. And with that, thank you for listening. This has been Gov Love, a podcast about local government.
- [52:32]
B
You get lost, you can always be found.
- [52:37]
A
Just know you're not alone
- [52:41]
B
because I'm gonna make this place your.