GovLove Podcast #718 – State of Behavioral Science in Government with Joseph Sherlock, King's College London

Date: March 6, 2026
Host: Tony Thompson (Director of Strategy, NC Department of Health and Human Services)
Guest: Dr. Joseph Sherlock (Assistant Professor, King's College London)

Episode Overview

This episode of GovLove explores the evolving role of behavioral science in government settings, focusing on local government innovation, ethics, experimentation, and integrating emerging technologies like AI. Tony Thompson interviews Dr. Joseph ("Joey") Sherlock, a seasoned behavioral scientist whose work bridges academia and public policy across international contexts. Together, they reflect on the past decade's shifts in behavioral science, ethical debates, practical lessons for practitioners, and the future of evidence-based innovation in government.

Lightning Round: Getting to Know Dr. Sherlock

[02:06 - 08:04]

• What Inspires Joey in His Work?
  • "Government, civic society, democracy, we're just not in a good place right? ... We need to innovate. And so I see my role... as coming up with sort of novel, creative ways to solve some of these issues." (B, 02:21)
• Book/Show Recommendations:
  • Yes Minister (80s British political satire); likened to "the UK’s Parks and Rec" (03:19–03:43)
  • Mindware by Richard Nisbett (03:56–04:05)
• Unique American Observation:
  • "Chicken pickled biscuits... American beer is good! There's a brewery on every street corner... It's really cool and really innovative." (B, 04:15–05:29)
• Fictional World to Live In:
  • Harry Potter universe; Joey was an extra in the sixth film, filmed at his boarding school (06:44–07:15)
• Best Professional Advice:
  • "You should try and not be the bottleneck... What can you do in the next five minutes, half an hour, next day that unlocks someone else?" (B, 07:26)

Joey’s Journey to Behavioral Science

[08:33 - 14:22]

• Born in Ireland, raised on an organic farm, early interests in cricket before turning to psychology.
• Early career: worked at M&C Saatchi in advertising ("methodologically hollow, and... ethically neutral"), then pivoted to behavioral public policy at LSE.
• Ran experiments in public health and tax (UK HMRC): contributed to innovations like digital government nudges.
• Move to Duke University (US) led to extensive municipal partnership work in areas such as food waste and transportation—planned as a 6-month secondment, he stayed several years.
• Balances two worlds: "I want my career to be about sitting at this intersection between academic creation of evidence and knowledge, but also the impact that comes with working in a fast-paced policy environment..." (B, 11:40)
• Core lesson: "Everything is a story... if you're on an interview, you're just telling stories about yourself." (B, 13:14)

Comparing Local Government in the US and the UK

[14:22 - 17:20]

• Joey’s contrast is as much about central vs. local government as it is about country differences.
• Local government fosters innovation: "There's much more of an opportunity... more wiggle room... You can try things and then scale what works." (B, 15:52)
• He urges practitioners: "You all in local government— that's where the innovation is... By the time it gets to central, we want to be pretty confident that something's working." (B, 16:27)

Behavioral Science in Government: The Decade’s Evolution

[17:20 - 21:52]

• Early 2010s: Hype with books like Nudge, growth of the UK's Behavioural Insights Team, Ideas42, etc.
• Early successes: defaults (pensions), social norms (“Nine out of ten people pay taxes on time” nudges).
• The hype cycle matured—some "pop science" interventions proved unreliable on real-world testing.
• "We have found that lots of flashy, exciting pop science-y ideas actually sort of don’t really hold up, right? ... But others aren't." (B, 18:40)
• Now: behavioral science has become a nuanced "toolbox" within innovation, combining nudges, systems thinking, and more multidisciplinary approaches.

The Purpose and Perception of Behavioral Science in Government

[21:52 - 23:38]

• If Behavioral Science + Public Sector = X?
  • "Innovative and evidence-based government." (B, 22:25)
  • But acknowledges perception issues: "People [sometimes] say manipulation or coercion... and I think those people have been reading too many sci-fi novels." (B, 22:34)

Ethics, Paternalism, and Trust

[23:39 - 32:19]

• Ethics:
  • "Should we be innovating ethically? ... Obviously yes." (B, 23:51)
  • Behavioral interventions are "soft paternalism"— nudges influence but don't restrict, often benefitting those without strong preferences.
  • "It influences the people who don't have strong preferences while maintaining freedom for people who do." (B, 24:34)
  • On the nagging debate about manipulation: Joey suggests transparent intent and that government, aiming at collective well-being, often has a more benign aim than private firms manipulating for profit.
• Trust and Transparency:
  • Public trust is fragile, especially when government mechanisms are opaque.
  • Operational transparency—explaining processes (like elections)—can boost both trust and participation: "If we can just do just this—give people a stronger understanding of how elections work—they’ll understand it more, they'll trust it more and they'll vote more as a result." (B, 32:15)

The Role of Nudging, Ethics, and the Big Questions

[32:19 - 40:09]

• Why nudge?
  • Joey: "The world is complex and messy and getting increasingly complex and messy and humans haven’t really changed... we're trying to design environments to help those flawed humans make better decisions in a complex world." (B, 37:49–39:52)
• Ethical Dilemmas—Who Decides the “Right” Path?
  • Government’s role: “...Maximize happiness, maximize well-being, and minimize misery.” Yet, context and debate always shape what is considered “the right direction” for nudges. (B, 33:29)
• AI in Behavioral Science:
  • AI is not a panacea but is increasingly used for supporting research, simulating survey responses (with ~80–90% accuracy), and accelerating early-stage policy exploration.
  • "If you're in a fast-paced policy environment... use the synthetic response as a guide... I think it's a useful tool in the innovation, but I just don't think we should... rely on it as the answer." (B, 45:19)

Universal Lessons, Experimentation, and Practitioner Advice

[46:04 - 55:53]

• Are there “always works” or “never works” behavioral science interventions?
  • Joey cautions humility: "I don't think you can ever be that certain. I don't think you should be... one of the big things that behavioral science teaches us is to stay humble, right? You don't know the answer..." (B, 46:47)
• Context matters—what works in one setting or time may not in another.
• Advice to Practitioners:
  • Experiment! Test before full-scale implementation, even for interventions with strong prior evidence. Consider staggered or quasi-experimental rollouts.
  • "What I would suggest... as best you can, try and run an experiment or run an evaluation... create this sort of quasi-experimental learning environment." (B, 50:23)
• Building a Culture of Experimentation:
  • Experiments are not as scary or complex as rumored. Invite partnerships with academics or invest in training staff.
  • "You, government manager, create and endorse this culture around... we're here to test things, we're here to try things... to scale the things that are working." (B, 52:52)
• How to Learn Behavioral Science:
  • Read Thinking, Fast and Slow, Nudge, Mindware.
  • Use audiobooks, take a short course, seek out hands-on opportunities: "The best way to learn something is to do it... run an experiment in your job." (B, 55:34)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Everything is a story... humans have evolved to work with narratives. We don’t work so well with data, we work well with narratives." (B, 13:14, Storytelling in government)
• "If anyone should be looking to shape behavior, it is this more benign force that is trying to improve people’s lives." (B, 28:30, On government nudging)
• "It's great that you have good ideas and big ideas and a strong agenda, but like, tone your confidence down a level and start running experiments and figuring out if your ideas work and if they work over a long period." (B, 49:40, On humility and experimentation)
• "The best way to learn something is to do it... learn while doing." (B, 55:34, Practical advice)

Resources & Recommendations

• Reading:
  • Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
  • Nudge by Thaler & Sunstein
  • Mindware by Richard Nisbett
  • Yes Minister (TV show)
• Skill-building:
  • Try short courses, reach out to academics, invest in team learning.
• Culture:
  • Build experimentation and evidence-based practice into organizational DNA.

Outro: DJ Song Choice

[56:03]

• Joey would pick a Hamilton musical number: "I Wrote My Way Out" or "Non-Stop."
  • "I learned history through Hamilton. So I’m gonna say like, you know, I wrote my way out or like non stop, like one of those two." (B, 56:12)

Summary Takeaways for Listeners

• Behavioral science has matured: early optimism about "magic" nudges has given way to more nuanced, context-sensitive, and evidence-based practice.
• Government—especially at the local level—is uniquely positioned to innovate, experiment, and scale what works for citizens.
• Ethics, transparency, and humility are critical. Practitioners should avoid overconfidence and commit to testing interventions in real-world contexts.
• AI offers promising tools, but should augment—not replace—real-world experimentation.
• Storytelling, continuous learning, and partnership with academia are key to advancing behavioral innovation in public service.

For more episodes and resources: elgl.org/govlove
Contact Dr. Sherlock: King's College London faculty page or via his website