← GovLove - A Podcast About Local Government
GovLove - A Podcast About Local Government
#720 Making Government Smarter with Cori Zarek, Apolitical
00:52:55
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Foreign.
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Coming to you from Long Beach, California, this is govlove, a podcast about local government brought to you by engaging local government leaders. I'm Meredith Reynolds, Deputy City Manager at the City of Long beach and your GovLove co host for this episode. GovLove is produced by ELGL. Engaging local government leaders. You can support GovLove by becoming an ELGL member. ELGL is a national volunteer run, membership based nonprofit organization with a mission to engage the brightest minds in local government. Check us out and learn more about our annual membership@elgl.org also this year we are celebrating 10 years of the Govlov podcast. Help us commemorate this important milestone by calling the Govlov hotline at 720-282-1752. Leave us a message with your favorite Govlove memory or your predictions on the next 10 years of local government. You just might be featured on our next future episode. And now on with our show. Today's guest, Corey Zarek is a Vice President for North American at Apolitical, the world's largest online network for government with a mission to make government smarter to deliver better for people and the planet. With more than two decades of experience working within and alongside government institutions, Cory brings a remarkable depth of knowledge and a proven track record of using technology to help governments address their most pressing policy challenges. Corey's career of public service includes serving as Deputy administrator of the U.S. digital Service at the White House and deputy U.S. chief technology officer. She's also made an important contribution outside of government as Executive Director at Georgetown University's BEEC center and founding several impact organizations focused on technology and policy delivery, including the US Digital Response, which has worked with hundreds of governments primarily at the local level. So let's welcome Corey and thanks Corey for joining me today. I'm super excited to chat with you.
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Thanks Meredith. Thanks for having me. Big fan of Gov Love and elgl.
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Wonderful. Today is going to be fun and we're going to start with our lightning round so our listeners get to know you a little bit better. So Corey, what is one fun fact about you?
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Okay, so we are in March and something that happens every March is Sunshine Week, a celebration of transparency and openness in government and my my roots, my background come from the open government and freedom of information world. And I my fun nerdy fact is I am a member of the FOIA hall of Fame which is an incredible honor but also super nerdy.
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The FOIA hall of Fame. Let's what what is that for our listeners?
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It is a lovely recognition of folks who have championed the Freedom of Information act in our work. And it truly is a great honor. It's just, you know, kind of one of those really nerdy halls of fame.
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I love it. I love it. Did that come with a really also nerdy trophy or, you know, I have
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a plaque on the shelf behind me.
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Very nice. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. Fun fact. What is a book article or podcast? Do you recommend other local government professionals?
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Professionals check out one of my favorite podcasts is called 99% invisible. It's a podcast about design and about a lot of the hidden things in our lives, which often in the course of the podcast, come up in local communities. So it ends up having a lot of storylines and features on things in our local government or our community environments. It's just a really fun podcast. Incredible storytelling.
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Awesome, awesome. We will check that out. Okay, so Corey, you Live in Washington, D.C. so what is the most D.C. thing about living there? I don't know.
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Motorcades, you know, it's just a part of life and they're everywhere all the time. Another one, maybe major national landmarks are just like on the way to ordinary things. Like when you're running errands at Target or you're going to the movies, you just start. You might drive past the White House. So there's the, you know, Washington Monument. Yeah. So that's a very kind of funny D.C. thing.
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Nice. And then last one, since you talked about this, what's your top recommended museum or monument to Visit in Washington D.C.
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hands down, the National Archives. So my first government job. I know we'll talk more about this, but my first government job was at the National Archives. It is just a tremendous, incredible agency and museum with a really important mission. And where else can you see the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence and also the very best gift shop of any museum ever.
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This is true. I have been there. Yes. That is. That is one of those places that when I visited D.C. in the past or when I used to live and work there, that was always seemed to be always closed. So there was restoration happening and all these very important things where you couldn't always see all the things. And at one magic window, I got to go and see all the documents. And it was incredible and I loved it so much.
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Well, you know, so as part of the 250th this year, the archives is taking its it's historical documents and it's show on the road. So I think there are something like a dozen cities that they'll Be taking an airplane that folks can come and see essentially kind of the traveling exhibit of a lot of these charters of freedom. So that'll be great.
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That's wonderful. I love that. Awesome. Well, thank you for playing our lightning round. A lot of fun. We'll get started with our full podcast today and let's talk a little bit about your public service origin story. So. So you've done a lot of amazing things in your career, but how did you start and how did you find your way into government?
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Yeah, so I was, as they say, kind of minding my own business outside of government. And my background, as I mentioned, is in kind of open government, freedom of information. And it was a really challenging time to get access to information from government, particularly federal government. I was living and working in D.C. and then in 2000, in the 2008, 2009 era, a new administration came in with a pledge to be the most transparent government in history and to push for more public participation and civic engagement and access to data and records and information. Things that really, really mattered to me. And I realized if I cared about this that much, then I should be part of it and part of making that happen. So I joined government in 2009 at the National Archives to be part of what was then a very brand new office serving as the nation's Freedom of Information Ombudsman. And so our role was to work on government wide freedom of information policy and kind of improvements to practice and things like that. And so that was my first startup, my first startup in government, not the only one. And so I was there for. Sorry, go ahead.
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I see a pattern here.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what brought me in. And we did incredible work and in our office, you know, had the reach to touch every agency, the literally hundreds of federal agencies across the government. And so I really got to know so much more about government and, and a lot of my perceptions were misperceptions and there was just a lot of really wonderful, interesting stuff happening. Of course there was. And I was delighted every time. I kind of found a new pocket of amazing people doing great stuff. And I found my way to a role in, in the White House about four years in, where I was serving as the advisor on open government. So I was helping to guide the federal government's work on something called the Open Government Partnership. A lot of our work across the agency on how we're opening up data and records and improving public participation and things like that. And so got to spend, you know, a number of years in that role and what was kind of a funny coincidence was that portfolio lived within a technology team. So that sat within the office of the Chief Technology Officer at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. And so I was just kind of minding my own policy business here, working on open gov and surrounded by these brilliant technologists who I realized very quickly, oh, we have the same ethos. They work in the open, they care very much about including public input and public participation into everything they build, you know, design with, not for. So we just really had so much in common. So of course then it made sense to me why that seat, why that portfolio sat in the tech team. And that was an interesting set of timing circumstances in that I was there when the federal government rolled out the Affordable Care acts online marketplace, healthcare.gov, which if you know our, if our friends and listeners were around back in 2013, you'll recall that did not go well. And so our team, the tech folks, were kind of dispatched to help put that to rights essentially. But then also think about the different path forward. And my colleagues who had been there, you know, long before I arrived had been working on just that. What does a modern day digital government need to look like? What shape does it take? What priorities does it have? What types of people do we hire? And you know, when you're, when you're part of a team, whatever portfolio you have, like you're part of the team. And so, you know, I really folded into that work very quickly and that kind of set, I'd say like the next decade of my career on, on that digital government and kind of tech and tech policy path.
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Yeah. And when you're on that path in that next phase, what sorts of work have you been responsible for kind of in that era? And are there some particularly notable experiences that have led you to some key learning moments?
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Yeah, so actually maybe I'll meander through a few different examples here. When I started working on the open government and kind of open data work, it was a really interesting assignment in that I was a team of one assigned to that specific portfolio. And so it was me and I had, you know, a zero dollar budget and yet I had the, the mandate, the remit to work across the entire federal government to design and roll out new policies and programs and projects around open government across many different axes. And so that for me was this very rapid experience of entrepreneurialism and being really creative in how we resource. It was a lot of, you know, borrowing people for 20% of their time here and there to work on different aspects of things, pulling together, interagency working groups. Pilots. Oh, we love a pilot in government. We did so many pilots. So just being really creative and entrepreneurial just had to be part of that job with, you know, with the circumstances we're in. And I think that has, you know, served me in every role since it serves all of us. You know, another thing I'll mention, in that job, you know, there was a policy making element. It was the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. And so we were drafting new policy directives on open government, open data, you know, technology, et cetera. And I think one of my biggest lessons in that process is patience. Policy making process is a very long one. And rightly, when we are changing or adding to the policy apparatus in ways that's going to impact the American people or the people of the world, we need to be really thoughtful about it. And that was an important lesson to learn that process and why we sometimes move very slowly and should and incorporate the lessons and feedback and wisdom of all of the communities around us who will be impacted or, you know, who care to share. And so that, you know, the sort of patience and inclusion, I think is just such an important part of policymaking.
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Yeah.
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At usds, our work was the, the next step, which is implementing all of these policies and programs. And so, you know, we had some really important lessons learned through the dozens and dozens of USDS projects that I got to be part of and touch. You know, one of our biggest wins was rolling out with the State Department an online passport renewal system. That project has been, you know, it's rare when your work in government makes the national news, you know, or like let alone the Today show. And so at least for us, or not usually for a positive thing. Right. And so we were, you know, delighted that America and, you know, and travelers were so pleased with that experience that in fact, interacting with the government on an ordinary routine matter was delightful and easy and worked just as it should. Indeed. As it should. Right. Another big project we did was with the Social Security Administration just overhauling essentially kind of their entire customer experience. It's just really confusing to figure out retirement. I do not know from personal experience yet, but you know, we've heard and the data backed that up. And Social Security did an amazing job over the course of a couple of years of just like really unpacking that experience and redesigning it with, with folks who are seeking Social Security assistance, whether they be retirees or other types of beneficiaries at the forefront and have gotten just Remarkable outstanding ratings for the kind of performance scores on the other side of it, which again, happened a lot in government when you're interacting on government site sites and systems. So any lesson in all of that, I think, is the, the partnerships, the collaboration. In all of those examples, those were entire ecosystems of folks working on these different projects. Yes, the agency partners and the government colleagues, but also colleagues from sometimes NGOs, vendors. There's just an entire ecosystem and the capacity of that ecosystem that's immediately working on the project matters, but the capacity of the workforce around you matters too. To move the Passports online at the State Department, that took more than the passports team. That took a lot of folks all throughout the State Department to be in line with that mission and goal and move together toward that shared purpose. So the capacity piece is just something that's really important and has stuck with me.
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Yeah, I talk a lot about with my teams this, this aspect of, in government, no one can do anything alone. And having the, you know, true belief that our work is better when we, we work together because we can think about it like a clock with gears, that everyone has a different piece and moves at a different pace. And when we're all doing the thing that we should be doing, that clock is telling the right time every minute of the day. And so those, that kind of machination of process policy and process and implementation reminds me of that, that we talk about in our organization, because you really do need that whole ecosystem and all of those people to be in lockstep, you know, moving in the direction, doing all of their individual pieces to get to that. And that's a big undertaking.
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Yeah, yeah.
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As you moved from this experience and these roles and the things that you were sort of absorbing and learning, you moved then into a role adjacent to and supporting that government process that you had previously served in. So now that you're working in a different organization, what was that transition like? And how can you. Do you continue to find value and make a contribution even though you're sort of outside of a system?
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Yeah, well, let me start with the first part first, which is, you know, the thing that, just to pick up on where we were a minute ago, the thing that just really stuck with me is for any of these big transformational projects to actually take hold, so the grand policy ideas turn into an implementation, and for that to actually stick, we really have to invest in the humans who are driving that and responsible for it. And I think, you know, really we kind of, kind of do a bad job of that in governments everywhere. Not, not just, you know, here in the US and not at any particular level. It's just, you know, almost an afterthought. We sort of expect public servants to come in fully baked and fully formed and just leave them to it. And I think that doesn't really, you know, if we, if we pride ourselves on being one of the most, if not the most forward leaning countries in the world, why wouldn't we want the smartest and best government workforce in the world? And if we want that, then that takes an investment. And so in this role, and what I was really thinking about as I moved from government to something outside of government was how do we really invest in the people who power our governments and ensure they have the skills and the capabilities and the context to deliver on all of the incredibly complex things we ask them to do in an environment that is increasingly more challenging for all sorts of reasons, not least including resources and demand. And it just, you know, has been really important for me personally to think about how to move the needle on that investment in public servants. And so the work I'm doing now really enables that and furthers it. You know, as you described, Apolitical is a peer network of government folks all around the world who are helping each other and ourselves get smarter in lots of ways. But I mean, I think that sort of leads to an important ecosystem point like we were just talking about. I think you can find value and make contributions and be of service even when you're not directly in a public service.gov job because it does take that whole ecosystem to power all of the things we need in, you know, in a society and in public service. Public service takes a lot of different shapes. And so being part of a public benefit corporation whose mission is to support governments I think is a really important way to continue to support and contribute to public service missions.
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Yeah. And when you're, now that you're working in Apolitical from the day to day, what is different about your work versus perhaps what you were doing before in your dot gov job?
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Oh wow. The ability to see across so many different governments Apolitical has been around for about 10 years. So we in ELGL seem to have sprung off the ground around the same time. And we reach half a million public servants through our platform and another 40 million public servants globally in 170 countries. And so having that, that reach and just that, those touch points with so many public servants working on so many things, it's really, you know, much larger scale than some of the work that I was doing previously which was a little more focused on data and tech interventions for program implementation on the one hand. On the other we also have the ability to we in this role outside of government have the ability to move a little more methodically and slowly and thoughtfully whereas that's just simply not a reality in public service. Right. You all know that. And so I think that is a big change as well. When you are used to working in a really dynamic, fast paced public service, public sector environment to move to a space where you really get to kind of take your time and develop the work you are doing in a longer term pathway, that's a big shift as well. Just personally as a human.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well and for apolitical, the world's largest online platform for government, this started somewhere. What was the spark that started that idea? And now that it's this platform, what is the platform about? What resources does it offer? And you mentioned a little bit about the folks who are involved and who uses it.
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Yeah. So really the reason for being for apolitical was I think similar to my own kind of recognition that we just under invest in public service. And so the founders1 is a former US public servant servant and our other founder came from more of the social sector. You know they'd put their heads together to say we really think we can be doing more to support governments and similarly that we want our public sectors to be the smartest workforces in the world. And so how can we enable that and empower it? And so we have over 10 years approached that in a number of different ways, which makes sense. People learn in different ways. And so we have, you know, more traditional short online courses that you might take in a, you know, your self paced online training course. One of our most popular ones lately has been a quick course on prompt engineering. You know we're all trying to figure out how to incorporate AI into our work and like how do you get started? So that's been a really popular one. But short courses. Another aspect of our work is our online communities. We have I think close to 50 different online communities of practice organized in all sorts of ways. You can kind of slice it. We've got a very busy community these days on AI and government with I think nearly 30,000 people around the world are in there kind of jamming and hanging out and trading notes and asking questions. We have a local gov community. I hope our gov love listeners and friends will join us there and all sorts of different types of online peer communities where folks are sharing resources and kind of Solving problems together. We also build tools that are designed with and for governments and all of the work we do. We host lots of events. Our online events are incredibly popular and well attended around the globe. Hope you'll check those out. And the vast majority of what we have is available at no cost to public servants. We do ask folks to, to join us on our platform so that we can ensure those spaces are specifically for public servants. They are not meant for our, some of our ecosystem colleagues who we love. But we want to hold these spaces really just for public servants. And so let me give you an example of one of our tools that we're really excited about. About a year ago we launched something called the AI Readiness Check. It is a very simple five or six minute self assessment that you take. You sort of answer some questions on how you're, how you're feeling about AI, a little bit of a vibes check how you're using AI if you are where you think you might have some opportunity to invest in AI into your work. And it just essentially kind of helps you identify the knowledge, the skills, the mindsets, the principles that are going to help you really move into more of a confident and effective user of AI. And more than 8,000 public servants in, you know, the year since we've put that out have used this tool. A bunch of governments are customizing it to their specific baselines they'd like to measure. And it really is a good baselining tool, just sort of helps you assess like where are you on this skills journey that we all find ourselves on and where do we go from here? Like at the end of it, it's, it sets you on a path to offer some suggestions on how you can continue building your skills and capabilities. So things like that. We want to really empower and enable public servants to continue to feel some supported even as new, interesting and sometimes challenging curveballs come our way.
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Yeah, well, and that's a great little check for folks, you know, as a good start because I think the topic of AI can be so vast and so robust and you know, fast changing. You know, every day there's something new that our new tool that comes out about this and for those of us, you know, who spend time in the space, some of that is really hard to like where do I even start? Right? And we've seen, you know, rounds of this over time where a new tool comes out or you know, I'm thinking dating myself a little bit, but like, you know, the ipod comes out and you're like what do I even do with this and then you get to play with it a little and you quickly adapt and now we're, you know, everything close.
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IPod. How sad is that?
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I know.
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Love that little guy.
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I know. And now it's, you know, coming back, making a comeback because it's cool with all the kids these days, I don't know. But, you know, the next big wave of things is, is this AI. And I know AI Apolitical has completed a recent report on the use of AI in government. And I think having that initial tool to be like, where am I at? So then you can kind of deep dive with, you know, these reports and these products as a way to sort of get started is a really cool thing. But let's talk a little bit more about, about this report. So, yeah, you know, I think, you know, there's some fundamentals of AI that I want to kind of chat about here. You know, this is one of those, like explain to me like I'm five. Right. So from your perspective, what is AI in the context of local government and what are some of the possibilities you see in improving the way we serve our communities? And I know the report helps, you know, explain some of those things as well.
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Yeah. Well, let me start with some concrete examples. I think we can often wrap our arms around something that feels a little opaque or sort of hard to nail when we see it in practice. And so recent report I'll mention is something we just published a few weeks ago called 50 States, 50 Breakthroughs. It includes a dive into some exciting examples of how public servants have been delivering in their governments across the country here in the US and features examples from all levels. A lot of them are local gov, some states, and then even a few federal examples. And we'll, we'll be sure you have the link to that to share with the listeners. But so that report included all sorts of examples across all sorts of topics and themes and sectors. But there were a few really strong examples of how AI is being used in government. So let's dig into those. A few of my favorites. One, the city of Chandler, Arizona has a project on real time translation. And so they've piloted and now invested in an instant language assistance translation device that is being incorporated across the city to remove communication barriers and make it easier for people, whatever their abilities, whatever their language they may speak, to interact with government. And so this led to hundreds of face to face conversations between members of the public. So folks who live in Chandler and their government and thousands of minutes of them spent together in ways that you know the public may not have otherwise been able to interact directly with their government. These devices have. So they've been able to Support by leveraging AI more than 120 languages and dialects. And they've also expanded access for the residents of Chandler who have speech or hearing or visual disabilities and just allows them to, you know, really interact directly with their government and so might not think about AI as the lever for more face to face or human to human interaction. And yet here we are, another example out of Kansas city. This is a 311 example. So many of us come from communities with 31 1. I literally filed a 311 request here in Washington D.C. this week. We love it. So in Kansas City they are shifting from the kind of typical. So if you know 311 it's the sort of service request line, the non emergency, right? If 91 1's for your emergency, 31 1's for your like hey city, help me out. And so that service request process typically is pretty reactive. You notice something that you would like some attention to and you let the city or the government know and you know, then they can do something about it or put in the queue and resolve it, et cetera. So that's a typical process. And what they have been doing in Kansas City is using data practices and emerging tech, including AI, to, to shift that reactive model to more of an anticipatory model. They're anticipating and better reflecting the needs of Kansas City residents and using AI to redesign workflows and confirm handoffs and make sure requests are resolved, improving communication. And they've built this replicable model that really strengthens engagement and trust and of course delivery of the services that folks are reaching out to 311 about. So again, just interesting to see so many end results of the way we're using technology that can feel a little new and challenging and kind of robots have a very human set of outcomes. Another example I'll give in Boston. Boston is using AI to digitize and manage its curb space. In a big city like where I live, we parking curb space. It's a real, it's a real scarce asset. And so in Boston they're using street level imagery, lidar data and then different machine learning models to extract parking regulations from thousands of street signs and store them in a standard open source format. Another thing about, you know, living in a city is all of the parking restrictions on those signs are so confusing and just why. And so their goal is to replace that fragmented manual system with an interactive map that's going to help residents quickly understand where they can park and when. Right. It's always like before this hour, after this hour, not on this day, et cetera. And so they've piloted, piloted this program in Chinatown in Boston, and they will be now rolling out resident facing tools as they move it forward. So, you know, just really pulling AI in to solve ordinary problems or include and empower people are a lot of ways that we're actually seeing it put into practice, particularly in communities.
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B
Yeah, well, and I love that last example because as you were talking about Boston, I'm thinking, you know, if they have like a transportation demand parking payment system, right, where, you know, whether it's, you know, you pay by coin or credit card or whatever, if there's paid parking and like, what they could do with that and how they could change that based on the hours of, of the day when there is demand or not demand, and like, how else then that can be extrapolated into other parts of their systems as they kind of move in this more modern direction? And how valuable some of that sort of key baseline data is from these AI systems that can kind of reap benefits across multiple work groups and divisions and even departments to some degree. Because how might a police department use that or how might a neighborhood or community services group?
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Absolutely. I mean, the possibilities are really limitless as we are exploring what we have in front of us. It's very exciting.
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B
Yeah, that's excellent. And so in the report specifically that kind of focuses on AI and government, are there some perhaps trends and ways local governments are using AI, you know, outside of these kind of case studies, you know, what are you seeing across the usage of AI in governments?
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A
Yeah, a lot. And so, okay, so those examples I gave will be in a link on 50 States, 50 Breakthroughs. This next set of data points I'm going to throw at you come from our insights from the AI Readiness Check report that we also published last month. And this is based on data we collected all throughout 2025 from thousands of public servants. And so we'll share that link also separately. So we have the 50 states report and the AI report. And so the AI report captured inputs from, from 5,000 public servants from 26 countries. And it really provided us with like, some vital insight into the state of AI development in, you know, across the globe in public service. We saw a lot of areas of real progress, and we also saw a lot of areas where we probably should be strengthening our capabilities. And so, you know, one thing that really came to the fore is artificial intelligence in Our governments is, is no longer emerging. It's already embedded unevenly, imperfectly, but it's, it's unmistakably being embedded across government. So, you know, it might still feel so very new, and it is, but it is here. So over three quarters of the public servants we work with report using AI in their work. So 70% of senior leaders say their organizations are running AI pilots or they expect to do so within the next year. So we're really hitting that critical mass and it tells us something important. You know, governments aren't, they aren't waiting to see what happens. They're engaging, they're experimenting. And in many cases they're pushing forward with a lot of significant pressure around them. So yeah, and so I think the most difficult question we're seeing is where some of these current approaches will lead to sustained, responsible adoption at scale, taking these pilots and putting them into practice or permanence, or whether governments kind of get stuck in converting pilots into something more robust. So we're really still at that inflection point stage. But when we examine the data we collected as part of this activity more closely, a real consistent pattern emerges across geographies, across structures and types of governments. And that is that public servants themselves are often ahead of the institutions they work within. So individuals are learning quickly, the public servants are experimenting pragmatically, and they are adapting tools to support their day to day work. But yet the institutional foundations to support AI safety and AI as a systematic kind of implementation is just much less mature at this point.
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Sure.
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So fewer than half of government leaders say their org has a clear plan for procuring AI tools and systems. Only about a third say they think their data is sufficiently prepared for AI use. Yeah, that's that. That feels true. And also concerning. Right and true. And then almost, you know, shockingly, among public servants, among the public servants whose specific job tasks and duties involve designing and delivering AI systems. So folks on those, maybe tech or CIO shop teams, only one in four say they are familiar with some type of established ethical framework for AI adoption. So only a quarter of the folks tasked with actually implementing AI in our governments say they've been brought in on how to do so ethically and responsibly. So that's concerning.
- [36:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, well, and I think some of that data that you're sharing, like I'm thinking about my organization, you know, tracks very similarly because we're doing a bunch of projects where, you know, technology projects and we're thinking about the data and we're like, oh, this, this poor data, it's all over the place. And some of it's old, some of it's new, some of it's in different systems. And you know, we do this, that kind of readiness activity. And I could see, you know, a lot of organizations not finding their data to be ready for some of this. That, that, that definitely tracks, you know, even, even though we're trying to do our best and you know, we have a strategy that talks about, you know, for our organization where, where we would like to head and what the parameters are and things like that. And that took a long time to kind of put together because we, we had to figure out where to start. Right. Similarly to some of these other governments. And then we are using it and piloting it in certain areas. Like our, our public safety dispatch is using AI to crawl the calls after the fact for qc, for quality control, and then being able to use that for training for the dispatchers, which is incredible. And then those are great examples, the existing, like, you know, how do I write this email for someone who is a very direct communicator, more empathetically and like, help me with some words. Right. And just the little examples on the daily that I use it for that is, you know, very rudimentary, but actually very helpful for me, you know, as I'm learning the tool and getting, you know, my, my bearings in this new world. And so that the data that you're sharing is, feel, feels very real. So I appreciate that.
- [38:31]
A
Yeah, thanks. Well, we'll continue gathering it. The good news is we get to keep working with thousands, hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of public servants across all sorts of topics. So this is a deep dive into AI. And we also have a lot of really interesting stats and findings on other topics and themes as well.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah. And I know that apolitical works in an international context. Right. So what are you seeing with some of the international data for the governments around the globe investing AI? Are there some things out there internationally that you think are worth emulating?
- [39:08]
A
One of the things that comes up a lot internationally, particularly in developing nations, is the concept of leapfrogging. And so if we're not familiar with this, it's sort of when, when you haven't had the resourcing or capacity to implement a particular type of system, then you don't actually have a legacy system and you really get to just kind of leap, if you will, ahead to more modern technology, tools, practices, etc. And so in a number of governments and I just spent some time a couple of weeks ago with many African leaders at the African Union. And many of those governments are experiencing this kind of leapfrogging moment spurred on by AI. Right. AI is our fast moving train and this is now giving these governments a really important opportunity to invest in their entire tech ecosystem, but to build brand new capabilities based on the moment we're in and not necessarily work backward to more traditional legacy technology practices and systems. And, and I wonder if there may be some, you know, maybe smaller governments at any level, at any part of the world who might also kind of find that leapfrogging opportunity resonant if you, you know, really haven't had the resources or the, the capabilities to invest in like a major technology system or etc. Perhaps this is a moment where you can get started in a lighter touch way with the moment in time that we're in.
- [40:44]
B
That's really interesting. Yeah, well, and to think about, you know, a lot of times when we look at, you know, best practice research or things at the local level, we're looking within country. Right. We're not necessarily looking across international examples because sometimes they feel so, so distant, so far away, so different. And there are lessons to be learned there.
- [41:06]
A
I mean, listen, government is government. We are all solving the same problems in our governments wherever we sit. Running a municipality, running a federal agency. Right. There's a lot of similarities. There's a, you know, reason when we started the US Digital service way back when that we saw what the UK government had been doing and went over, sent a team to essentially shadow them and say, tell us how you did this, show us what you built, how is this working? What would you do differently? And that kind of peer exchange is so incredibly valuable. One of the fun things about the apolitical space is that's what we're doing in our communities all day long. You don't have to get on a plane and fly anywhere. You can find your folks in local gov all over the world and see who's working on similar problems.
- [41:50]
B
Yeah, and it's a great platform for that and, and I, you know, I've used it and been there and elgl's partnered with Apolitical on one of the recent events and yeah, you know, such a nice place to be able to share ideas, ask questions, you know, in a way where you don't have to, to feel like you don't know anything or, you know, you're afraid to ask or there's a lot of people in that, in that space really willing to be curious and helpful and help you learn or, you know, even if they don't know, connect you to something that they saw that might be useful. And, you know, I, I've always felt like local government and governments in general, like, are very willing to share ideas,
- [42:28]
A
you know, because, because we know how hard it is.
- [42:30]
B
I know, I know. And there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Right. So I think those, those spaces where you have that camaraderie and networking are super special and kind of no one does those quite like government. So I, I can appreciate that. So I love the context of thinking about, you know, where you might be in your local government and where there might be some parallels, you know, even to the, that international context, because you may not find the, the parallel here in the US but there's definitely somewhere, someone, somewhere in government doing what you are or what you would like to be doing. And, and there's some learning that happens there, which is awesome.
- [43:07]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:09]
B
All right, so as we think about the emergence of AI, you mentioned that it's no longer emerging, it's here. Right. And it has an impact on the future of our workforce. So what can governments and local governments be doing to train and encourage and develop our workforce around this emerging technology? I feel like often governments are like the last to, as you mentioned, kind of invest in this training or fully adopt something. So how do we get our governments prepared to, to do this and our workers ready and able to use this in the most effective and ethical way?
- [43:47]
A
Well, first of all, the good news is there are a lot of amazing resources. And so I'll come back to that in a sec. But before we even get there, this is a mindset and a philosophy approach as a starting point. Right. I was really inspired by some remarks a couple weeks ago from the government of Singapore. They announced a new initiative that I think really just gave some language and some structure to what this transformation, what this change looks like and feels like, honestly, irrespective of government or sector. Right. And so this, this came from a Singaporean minister who oversees their digital development and information, Josephine Teo. And she rolled out some, some ambitious moves in her budget to invest in a new training program to train 100,000 workers on AI to ensure that all sorts of workers, accountants, receptionists, nurses, lawyers, everyone is equipped to use AI to solve real world problems. And the way she put it, here's her quote that just really has stuck with me. Not all of us can be AI engineers, but we can be bilingual in AI and our own areas of expertise to solve problems in Our domains, we all bring our own areas of expertise. I'm the nerd in the FOIA hall of Fame and all the other things. Right. And I just, I really like this concept of being bilingual. I've often thought of myself as a tech translator. I come from the policy world and have done a lot of translating between technologists and policymakers or policymakers and implementers. But I think being bilingual feels so much more on point to me. And if we think about, you know, from the mindset, we do need to continue to be really good at what we do because the thought work that we do, we're going to get to do more of it. And we also need to be bilingual in that we are bringing in enough knowledge and know how about AI to incorporate that into part of our work so we can let some of those tasks and mundanities let them go. So I, I just really, that has stuck with me as like a mindset and kind of cultural shift that I hope we can embrace in some way, whatever way that feels right to you. But I really like that concept of being bilingual. And then of course investing some time and energy into getting good at a thing that most of us are not yet good at. Some of us don't quite understand. We're not even sure where to begin. It is normal and natural that we're going to have to learn a new thing in this context. And that's okay. There's lots of opportunities for that. Of course, shamelessly plug our government AI campus, which is available at no cost to any public servant that offers all sorts of different learning opportunities, specifically on AI.
- [46:36]
B
Yeah, well, and I also think about this concept of this is just the next new thing we are learning. Right.
- [46:42]
A
It will never be done. There will always be the next new thing.
- [46:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I appreciate that. And then what about sort of like this, this concept of, of local governments, and you mentioned it at the beginning with some of the, the ethos about why not make our governments kind of the, the best and smartest, you know, folks in the room. How from, from translating that philosophy into kind of real world, I don't know, investment or implementation. Like how should a government go about doing that for the future of their workforce? Maybe there's some examples out there that you've seen.
- [47:19]
A
You know, there are lots of governments globally that have made in the Singapore example is one. The government of Rwanda is another to just name a couple where they've made this whole of government commitment and investment into upskilling their workforce. And I think we haven't seen anything quite like that, anything quite so bold or ambitious or perhaps audacious in government. But who better than a city, a municipality to give something like that a try? I mean we always, you know, my experience is mostly in federal government and we always, always would look to cities as the drivers of something creative, something new, willing to try anything. The really often the, the government spaces that were pushing us, showing us what was possible to do. And so I think taking an example from some of these national governments that are saying we in fact are going to make sure we have an AI ready workforce and we are committing to that. Would love to see a commitment or a goal set by a city, a municipality to say we're going to be an AI ready workforce here in the city of wherever and here's how we're getting started. That doesn't necessarily have to come with an entire roadmap of what that entails. We don't know what that will entail. So the environment is changing around us constantly. But it's a commitment, it's a signal and should come with an investment of, you know, being ready to actually support the workforce in doing so. A lot of great resources exist, you know, $0 and so it's, it's so much about the mindset and the commitment and the leadership level support to get started.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, and just thinking back to the like, this is just the latest new thing. We never stop, you know, being lifelong learners and we encourage, I know in our organization and in the profession in general, you know, that that aspect of if you have nothing else, have intellectual curiosity, you are there to, you know, serve your community, make life just a little bit better. There's high expectations and in order to do all of those things and be successful at them, you know, you need to be kind of on the forefront of, you know, being a lifelong learner and having that intellectual curiosity because then you are best positioned, you know, right person, right time, you know, right, right work ethic to be in a place to really follow through on some of those expectations. And so, you know, this is, this is just the latest thing. So there you go. Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing those reports today, Corey. I really appreciate it. We'll be sure to share those with our listeners. You definitely recommend being in the space that apolitical provides. You know, it is free and it is a great platform and a great resource. So thank you for sharing all of those resources today.
- [50:16]
A
Absolutely. We look forward to seeing you in our local gov community in any of our communities. Hope you'll pop in, introduce yourself and get to work with all of your friendly colleagues from around the world.
- [50:29]
B
Awesome. So Corey, if you could be the Gov Luv DJ to close out our episode today, what song would you pick as the exit music for this episode?
- [50:37]
A
Okay, since I was tipped off to the question, I had a moment to think about it and I'm coming at this with two entry points. One, because we've just been talking about AI, which is a real growth area for a lot of us and it's new and we're all figuring it out. And two, because public service is a real growth area for all of us and we're all always figuring it out. So I landed on Learning to Fly by Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, which I think is a song about having patience with yourself, about pushing yourself, about having patience with the environment you're in, which can sometimes be really challenging, learning, growing, all of that. And so I think that would really embody the gov love, spirit and ethos and vibes.
- [51:29]
B
Awesome. I love it. Well, learning to Fly will carry us out today. That ends our Gov Luv episode. A big thanks to Corey for joining the podcast.
- [51:39]
A
Thank you.
- [51:41]
B
Subscribe to Gov Love on your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Friday. If you are already subscribed to GovLove, go tell a friend or colleague about this podcast or share on social media. Help us spread the word that GovLove is a go to place for local government stories. GovLove is brought to you by Elgl Engaging local government leaders the best way to support GovLove is to become an ELGL member. You can reach us online at elgl.org govlove or at govlove podcast on LinkedIn, Instagram and other social media platforms. Thanks for listening. This has been govlove, a podcast about local government. Coming down is the hardest thing.