#725 Making Digital Government Accessible with Rebecca Bond and Kristin Stitcher

Summary

GovLove Podcast #725: Making Digital Government Accessible with Rebecca Bond and Kristin Stitcher

Release Date: April 24, 2026
Host: Tony Thompson, Director of Strategy for the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services
Guests:

• Rebecca Bond, former Chief of the DOJ Civil Rights Division’s Disability Rights Section
• Kristin Stitcher, former Deputy Chief, DOJ Civil Rights Division, Disability Rights Section

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Episode Overview

This episode of GovLove focuses on the urgent changes brought by the new ADA Title II rules requiring local and state governments to ensure websites and mobile applications are accessible for people with disabilities. Host Tony Thompson is joined by two distinguished leaders in disability rights—Rebecca Bond and Kristin Stitcher—who helped author the new rules while at the U.S. Department of Justice. They discuss the rationale behind the regulations, the real-world impacts of inaccessible digital services, public feedback during rulemaking, enforcement, and practical guidance for public entities working to achieve compliance.

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1. Lightning Round: Getting to Know Rebecca and Kristin

[03:30 – 14:59]

What’s Inspiring Your Professional Work?

• Rebecca Bond:
  "My highest value was always democracy... I love the fact that anyone in this country, any listener, anybody can submit a comment [on lawmaking]." [04:24]
• Kristin Stitcher:
  "I'm also inspired by just the constant challenge of trying to make things a little bit better. And that could mean even trying to make democracy feel a little more democratic." [07:04]

Book/Media Recommendations for Public Servants

• Rebecca Bond:
  • Good to Great by Jim Collins – Focuses on staying mission-driven and metrics-oriented.
  • The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin – "I took the strong lesson that as a public servant... it’s a great reminder of what’s at risk if we fail to treat those who depend on us fairly and equally." [10:59]
• Kristin Stitcher:
  • Parks and Recreation (TV Show) – “Such a great illustration of how awesome public service can be and the impact you can have at all different levels.” [11:21]

Best Professional Advice

• Rebecca Bond:
  "Trust is a choice... You can choose to trust people... and that sort of short circuits this time you would use and skepticism." [12:23]
• Kristin Stitcher:
  "Ask questions. Ted Lasso... said it best: be curious, not judgmental. Approaching conversations with curiosity... I have found just to be so effective." [13:35]

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2. Professional Journeys: Paths to DOJ and Disability Rights

[14:59 – 18:59]

• Kristin: Started as a contract law clerk at DOJ’s Disability Rights Section; fell in love with the mission, law, and people.
• Rebecca: Motivated by a personal connection (her brother has a significant disability), started in a different division, then became chief of the Disability Rights Section. Learned the power of rulemaking and public input.

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3. Key Insights: Disability Rights & Digital Accessibility

[18:59 – 26:42]

Why Disability Rights Matter

• Disability can affect anyone, at any time—making this advocacy universal.
• Society benefits when everyone can contribute—inclusion isn’t just good for disabled people, "it’s helpful for society." [21:19]
• "We collectively have built society in a way that doesn’t always work for people with disabilities... We can craft things so they’re accessible from the get-go." – Kristin [20:17]

The ADA: What, Why, and How

• Rebecca explains:
  • ADA is a "landmark civil rights law" prohibiting discrimination in employment, public accommodations, and government.
  • Historical civil rights actions like sit-ins and the Capitol Crawl were pivotal.
  • ADA is bipartisan, signed by President George H.W. Bush.
  • Title II (the focus here) covers state/local government services and activities. [23:23–26:42]

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4. Web Accessibility: Practical Examples and Challenges

[26:42 – 41:26]

Common Digital Barriers

• Lack of screen reader compatibility (missing alt text for images, poorly coded forms)
• Poor color contrast (e.g., yellow text on white background)
• Missing captions for videos—"Not going to be usable to people who are deaf." – Kristin [36:39]
• Ineffective tab order or keyboard inaccessibility affects users with dexterity issues

Quote: "If things that are offered digitally are not accessible, it’s going to leave some people out of those environments." – Kristin [29:50]

Importance of Building Accessibility Early

• "It's almost always easier to build accessibility in from the get-go... Whether it's a website or a curb cut." – Rebecca [21:19, paraphrased]
• "Many features rooted in accessibility are just great for everyone." – Rebecca [38:19]

Accessibility & Usability Overlap

• "An accessible webpage isn't going to look any different... but you might feel a difference because it'll probably be easier to use." – Kristin [34:21]
• Real-world examples: completing forms, park reservations, paying taxes, or accessing school updates.

New Rule Context

• Until now, no specific technical standards under the ADA for web and mobile content (unlike for physical spaces).
• The new rule provides clarity with reference to WCAG 2.2 Level AA standards. [30:33, 38:19]
• Accessibility is increasingly achievable due to improved and affordable technology (e.g., using Claude AI to generate accessible websites). [41:26]

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5. Rulemaking, Public Comment & Final Rule

[42:31 – 48:36]

Compliance Timelines (Updated Post-Recording)

• Large entities (50,000+): Now until April 26, 2027
• Smaller entities: Until April 26, 2028
• DOJ may issue further rulemaking for K-12 schools

Public Feedback Shaping the Rule

• Thousands of public comments helped shape the rule—especially lived experience stories (e.g., students unable to complete assignments without accessible content).
• "In the final rule… they decided to get rid of [the school course content] exception, which means that content would need to affirmatively be made accessible from the outset." – Kristin [45:17]
• All comments are available at regulations.gov.

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6. Private Sector & Web Accessibility

[48:36 – 51:07]

• Private businesses currently face a less clear regulatory landscape under the ADA.
• "There's no reason that businesses can't adopt the same standard... Accessible websites are just largely more usable by everyone." – Rebecca [49:18]

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7. Implementation, Enforcement, and Flexibility

[51:43 – 60:28]

Is the Rule Final?

• "The rule is finalized... It was final in April 2024." – Rebecca [51:49]
• Any future changes, such as via an “interim final rule,” would be subject to further public notice and are as yet unknown.

Enforcement Basics

• DOJ can file lawsuits for lack of web accessibility under the ADA’s general requirements.
• Process: attempts at informal resolution, then findings letters, and only litigation if necessary.
• Individuals can also file private lawsuits (private right of action). [56:06]
• Built-in flexibilities:
  • No need to retroactively fix old social media posts.
  • Minor technical deviations with no effective impact may not constitute a violation.

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8. Resources for Implementation

[60:28 – 61:42]

Kristin’s Recommendations:

• ADA.gov – DOJ's site contains:
  • Recorded webinar
  • Compliance guide for small entities
  • Fact sheet overviews
  • Step-by-step guidance for compliance
• ADA.gov also links to further resources and actionable advice

Host will link these resources in episode notes.

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9. Closing Reflections & Exit Music

[61:42 – End]

Song Choices for this Episode:

• Rebecca Bond: Colorful by Jukebox the Ghost – “So upbeat and filled with joy... encourages innovation and to try something new.” [62:17]
• Kristin Stitcher: Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield – “The rule is its own thing now... it’s now up to all of us to decide how we approach it.” [63:10]

Where to Connect

• Both Rebecca and Kristin are active on LinkedIn and will be sharing updates on upcoming work and advocacy. [63:55]

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Memorable Quotes

• "For society to be as good as it can be, you want contributions from everybody. And having these barriers that don’t need to exist that keep people from… being a part of society is really bad for all of us." – Rebecca [21:19]
• "I think my favorite piece of professional advice… was to ask questions. Ted Lasso… said it best: be curious, not judgmental." – Kristin [13:35]
• "An accessible webpage isn’t going to look any different… but you might feel a difference because it will probably be easier to use." – Kristin [34:21]
• "It’s helpful for all of us to get those contributions. So I think that, to me, is really one of the most important points." – Rebecca [21:19]
• "Help us spread the word that GovLove is the go-to place for local government stories." – Tony [End]

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Key Takeaways

• The new ADA Title II web and mobile accessibility rule provides long-requested clarity for local governments.
• Accessibility benefits everyone—not just people with disabilities.
• Technical compliance is more feasible and affordable than ever.
• Rulemaking is driven by public participation and everyday stories.
• Enforcement is multi-faceted, with flexibility for good-faith efforts and reasonable exceptions.
• More resources and implementation guides are available on ADA.gov.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:30] Lightning Round begins
• [14:59] Professional journeys to DOJ
• [18:59] Why disability rights matter
• [23:23] ADA and Title II explained
• [27:11] Common digital accessibility barriers
• [30:33] Why this ADA rule is unique and timely
• [34:21] What a good accessible webpage “feels” like
• [41:26] Technology makes accessibility more attainable
• [42:31] Compliance timelines and government feedback
• [45:17] Public comment stories and impact on rule language
• [51:49] Is the rule final?
• [56:06] Enforcement and flexibilities
• [60:42] Resources at ADA.gov
• [62:17] Closing music picks
• [63:55] Where to follow the guests' ongoing advocacy

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This episode serves as a timely, practical resource for anyone in local government working to comply with new digital accessibility mandates—and a reminder of the democratic power of public participation in creating fairer, more just communities.

Transcript

[A]

Hey govlovers. We've recorded and posted this podcast episode on April 24, 2026 because that was the expected compliance timeline for major public entities regarding the ADA Title II website accessibility requirements. During the podcast we discussed that there were potential changes still coming pending the DOJ's publishing of its Interim Final rule. Well, a few days after recording, the Interim Final rule was published, modifying the compliance timeline by one year. This means that larger public entities serving 50,000 or more now have until April 26, 2027 to comply. All other public entities have until April 26, 2028. Additionally, the DOJ is considering launching separate rulemaking that could impact compliance for K12 schools. With that context in mind, please still enjoy this relevant and timely episode as a resource for public entities still working to comply with these important requirements and guidelines. Coming to you from Durham, North Carolina, this is govlove, a podcast about local government brought to you by Engaging Local government Leaders. I'm Tony Thompson, Director of Strategy for the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services and your govlov host for today's episode. Govlove is produced by eogl Engaging Local Government Leaders. You can support govlove by becoming an EOGL member. EOGL is a national volunteer run, membership based nonprofit organization with a mission to engage the brightest minds and local government. Check us out and learn more about our annual [e-mail] and now on with our show. Today's guests are Rebecca Bond and Kristen Stitcher. Rebecca is a civil rights attorney who spent 25 years at the U.S. department of justice working to protect and expand the rights of people with disabilities and other marginalized communities. She spent the last 12 years as chief of the Civil Rights Division's Disability Rights Section and is currently a Leadership and Government Fellow. Kristin worked for the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division Disability Rights Section for over eight years in a few different roles, including as a Deputy Chief. Kristin's work was largely focused on regulatory matters and aimed at protecting and advancing the rights of people with disabilities. Currently, Kristin and Rebecca are no longer at the Department of Justice, but are working together to build a new organization to inform, equip and empower the public to influence the policies that shape their lives. Additionally, Kristin and Rebecca are lawyers by training. However, nothing in the discussion you are about to hear should be considered as them providing any legal advice. Welcome Rebecca and Kristin, thanks for joining me today.

[B]

Thank you so much for having us.

[A]

Yeah, so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. I wanted to invite you on govlove because There is a very important federal rule that goes into effect this month, April 24, that y' all helped author, which is really awesome. It's essentially like all state and local governments must ensure that their websites and mobile applications are more accessible for people with disabilities. And so I think it's just a really relevant and timely conversation. But first, first, before we get deeper into that, I want to take us through a lightning round. This is a gov love podcast tradition to get our listeners to get to know you a little bit better. So I have three lightning round questions for you when you're ready. Okay, awesome. So the first lightning round question, what is currently inspiring you in your professional work? I want to go Rebecca, then Kristen.

[B]

Great. And again, thank you so much for having me on. It's very exciting that the rule is about to go into effect and so I'm excited to talk about that. But first, lightning round, what is inspiring me in my professional work kind of goes back to my time at the Department of Justice. As a long serving Justice Department employee, my highest value was always democracy, because as a career attorney, you'd have administrations come and go and priorities would change. But what that always meant was that was reflecting the will of the American people. And as a federal regulator, I really love the fact that anyone in this country, any listener, anybody can submit a comment. And if those are significant comments, then the federal government actually has to respond to them in writing in the final rule. And that's just really an amazing part of the democratic process. But what we found, and I think Krista and I both found this working on federal regulations, is that while everybody has this power, very few people know it, and especially folks in traditionally underrepresented communities. And so we also found that, you know, hearing people's stories and finding out their lived experience and understanding how rules would play out in their everyday lives is absolutely invaluable information. And so I'm really motivated now to build a bridge between folks who are going to be impacted by rules and federal rule makers so that folks voices are heard. So that's what's motivating me right now.

[A]

I think that's really great. And I think I have a question later in the interview about people being able to submit public comments about this rule in particular. But I think I found out that anyone could submit comments to a federal rule maybe like 10, 15 years ago. And I thought that was so awesome. I've yet to do it. It's on my like, professional kind of like bucket list to do it feels intimidating. It's like, oh, it's usually reserved for, like, public interest groups, but it's something that I want to do at some point. So that's really cool. I love that you said that. Kristin, what about you? What is currently inspiring you in your professional work?

[C]

Well, I'm going to plus one everything that Rebecca said. Very inspired by democracy. Also very inspired by helping to make rules better by getting everyone involved. So we'd also love for you to submit a comment sometime. Another layer that I would just add is I'm also inspired by just like the constant challenge of trying to make things a little bit better. And that could mean even trying to make democracy feel a little more democratic. So that's something that inspires me.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. Okay, second question. What's a book, podcast or show that you think every public servant should check out at least once?

[B]

Well, I'll go first. This is Rebecca. So is it okay if I have two?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Okay, great, Great. So the first one is a book called called Good to Great. It's written by Jim Collins, and the book centers around his analysis of a number of businesses and sort of seeing when businesses transition from being kind of good, well performing to really transitioning to greatness. And so he kind of did this analysis, well, what factors can you look at that show when something is going to be, you know, just stay good or maybe go from good to not so great versus those that go from good to just being extraordinary? And there was one concept in the book that has really resonated and stuck with me, which is this idea of the sort of like the fox versus the hedgehog. So the fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows just one big thing. And what he found was that it's the companies who we put in the hedgehog category that actually were the ones that went from good to great because they kind of knew what their priorities were, they knew what their mission was, they knew what the metrics that they needed to succeed in were. And I think often as government employees, we tend to think that the business world is not necessarily going to be as applicable a model. But I found in my leadership of the disability rights section being very focused on what we needed to do for the American people and for folks with disabilities in very distinct ways, was helpful just in pretty much all aspects of our work. So then I'm going to switch gears because my second book is very, very different. And this is a book that I first read about 26 years ago, right before I started at the Department of Justice. And that really stuck with Me very. On a very deep level. It's the Fire Next Time by James Baldwin. And it's just a, you know, it's just a fantastic read, and it has a lot of great themes in it. But the theme that really resonated with me the most is how dangerous inequality is to the fabric of society. And that inequality isn't just bad for folks who are being oppressed, but that your social structures are really at risk more broadly if inequality is allowed to fester. And so I took the strong lesson that as a public servant, given the power that you have as a public servant, I just think it's a great reminder of what's at risk if we fail to treat what those who depend on us fairly and equally.

[A]

Yeah, I love those two really great books. I enjoy reading them, and I should probably reread them soon. So thank you for those selections. Kristen, how about yourself? What's a book, podcast or show? Any. Any kind of, you know, media or anything that is currently that you think a public servant should check out at least once?

[C]

I'm going to go with Parks and Rec, first of all. It's hilarious, but also it's just such a great illustration of how awesome public service can be and the impact you can have at all different levels. And I love that. It's like a group of people who are excited and passionate about it, especially Leslie, of course.

[A]

Yeah. Who do you. Who do you identify with most on that show?

[C]

Wow. Definitely some Leslie threads in there. But then at times, I feel like there can also be, you know, a little bit of Aubrey Plaza's character, you know, just kind of like.

[A]

Yeah, was that. Is that April?

[C]

That was April, Yes.

[A]

Yeah, April. There we go. I like that. That's a good. That's a good combination. One of my favorite shows. Okay, last lightning round question. What's the best professional advice you've ever received? Let's do Rebecca and then Kristen.

[B]

So mine is that trust is a choice. Oftentimes if you want to make big change or get large tasks accomplished, you need a team and you need to work well with a team. And a team that trusts each other is just so much more efficient, and people are happier and they're more engaged. And I know that there is sort of this popular wisdom that you have to earn my trust. I just don't believe that. I think that you can choose to trust people and that sort of short circuits this time that you would use and this skepticism you would have about your colleagues. You can just jump straight to choice if you. If you make that. That decision. So that's my favorite piece of advice.

[A]

I think that's really great. I think that's awesome, especially in thinking about trust as a model for. For government. You know, it's a choice and it's earned. And, you know, I think that's a really, really interesting balance, especially given the. The times that we're in. So, Kristin, how about yourself?

[C]

I think my favorite piece of professional advice that I received was to ask questions. Ted Lasso, I feel like, said it best be curious, not judgmental. And I feel like just approaching conversations with this curiosity, especially when you're talking with folks on your team or something who have just thought much more deeply about something than you or have done more research, approaching it with curiosity. Like, before you react, I have found just to be so effective.

[A]

Yeah, I love that I'm always starting with curiosity, and I think it's very relevant as you see human centered design frameworks starting to embed themselves more and more in government and starting with that curiosity before, you just decide what's best for people. So I love that answer. Okay. I want you to walk our listeners through your professional journeys. How did y' all get to the Department of Justice? You know, where were you? How did you start off your careers and ultimately end up in the field of disability rights? I just think that's just such a fascinating journey that I would love our listeners to hear about how y' all ended up there. But I want to start with Kristin and then go to Rebecca.

[C]

Sure. So I started in the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, Disability rights section, pretty much right out of law school as a contract law clerk, and I really just kind of lucked into that position. And then I fell absolutely in love with it. I fell in love with the mission, I fell in love with the people. I fell in love with the law, which isn't always easy to do. And then I was brought on as an attorney advisor in 2017, and then eventually was hired as a deputy chief, helping to oversee the regulatory team in the disability rights section. And I had the good fortune of having Rebecca as my chief the whole time that I was there.

[A]

That's great. Thank you. Rebecca, how about yourself? How did you get to the Department of Justice and where you are currently?

[B]

Well, first of all, I want to just amend Kristin's remark to say that we lucked into having her join us, which is a wonderful, wonderful addition. So I, you know, coming out of law school, I clerked for a judge, and I went to go work for a big law firm. In San Francisco. But I sort of knew that I always wanted to be, you know, work for the government and work for the. I was particularly interested in working for the federal government and doing civil rights work at the time. I really wanted to be a disability rights lawyer. So I grew up with a younger brother who has a very significant intellectual disability. And one of the things that was very clear to me growing up is that, you know, despite the fact that, you know, he was not able to talk and had, you know, certain limitations, what he wanted from life was what we all want from life. You know, he wants to watch his favorite TV shows and, you know, eat his favorite meals. And even though he can't talk, he wants to connect with people, and he wants to be productive. And so ensuring that equality and inclusion for folks with disabilities was always really a passion of mine. I think society is just much better when folks are included. I really wanted to work at the disability rights section. At that point, the disability rights section wasn't as keen to work with me. I didn't get hired by them, but I got hired into the civil rights division in a different office doing fair housing work. So I did fair housing work for 13 years and did race discrimination cases and sexual harassment cases and just a wide variety of different work in that field, and was eventually hired to finally get to the disability rights section as the chief in 2013. And when I joined the disability rights section, I was just a diehard litigator. That's all I had done my entire career, from being a student lawyer in law school, clerking for a judge, working in a law firm, and the litigation department. So that was just all that I was. I'd never really thought about being a federal regulator, but suddenly I was running an office that regulates. And like Kristen, I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with it because of the. In part because of this democratic process that I laid out before, is that you really take the. You make rules that are generally applicable to everyone, and they're informed by the stories and lived experience of people throughout this country. And so it's just. It was a real privilege to be able to work on that work. So that's my story.

[A]

That's great. I love both of those journeys. And such powerful. Such powerful explanations that y' all gave about how you got to where you. Where you were and the work that you're doing and the purpose that it entails. I think. You know, I would like, before we get into our conversation, if you could tell our listeners, you know, what is One thing that they should know about disability rights and the disability community that they might not think about in general. When I first started working for Health and Human Services, somebody who does similar work told me something that is so important to advocate for disability rights, because it's the one thing that any person can become disabled, even if it's temporary, any person can become disabled, and those rights are very important. It's almost a universal thing to advocate for for Americans. And that kind of just completely changed my framework about thinking about disability rights. But what is something that you think our listeners should be aware of when it comes to disability rights and why it's so important?

[C]

Okay. I think one of the first things that comes to mind for me is that, you know, we have influence over our world and our environment. You know, we kind of collectively have built society in a way that doesn't always work for people with disabilities. So what the law has come in and done is kind of make it so that the world is more accessible, but we actually do have a choice, right? Like we can craft things so. So that they're accessible from get go. Right. We can bake it into our processes. And that is especially relevant when we're talking about websites and mobile apps, which I know we'll talk about more later. But those can be built with accessibility in mind from the beginning so that they can be used more easily by everyone.

[A]

Rebecca.

[B]

And so I would sort of have two points. One is just sort of a reiteration of what Kristen said, is that it's just always, or almost always easier to build accessibility in from the get go, right? So if you're talking about a website, it's much easier just to build an accessible website. If you're talking about, you know, a curb cut, it's just much easier to pour the concrete in a way that is accessible than to have to go back and retrofit later. The second thing is that, is that, you know, I feel like for society to be as good as it can be, you want contributions from everybody and sort of having these barriers that don't need to exist that keep people from participating and being a part of society and is really bad for all of us. And so I think people might think of disability rights. Oh, well, that's helpful for people with disabilities. No, it's helpful for society. It's helpful for all of us to get those contributions. So I think that that, to me, is really one of the most important points.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for highlighting that for our listeners. Okay, so there's a new Rule coming down, modifications to the Americans with Disabilities act, which essentially says, and correct me if I'm wrong, that all local governments are in compliance. They have to do that all websites and mobile applications must be accessible for people with disabilities. And I think that has some really major implications for how people interact with government, but also details a major lift for local governments to comply with. So for our listeners who might not know what is the Americans with Disabilities act, why was it created, and what are some ways in which it shows up in our everyday lives? And I'll turn that to Rebecca.

[B]

So it's a landmark civil rights law and it prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities in a very wide range of contexts. So in prohibits against employment discrimination or discrimination by public accommodations, which are essentially businesses, or discrimination by social, state and local governments. And it really is rooted in just this sort of the broad civil rights struggle that you had. You know, in the 50s and 60s, disability advocates sort of adopted the same types of strategies to get the Americans with Disabilities act passed. And so it comes on the heels of the Rehabilitation act, which was passed in 1973, which was the first time that there was a statute that required that the federal government require that federally funded programs had to be free from disability discrimination. And so in 1977 that this law was in place, but there weren't regulations to implement the law. And so folks with disabilities took over a government building in San Francisco. They had a 25 day occupation of this, this building. And they sort of really pushed the government to issue these, these, these strong regulations. And it really kind of proved proof of concept that, you know, these civilization of organized disability rights demonstration could lead to real change. And so right before the ADA was passed, kind of like to sort of like push things over the finish line, there was what's called the Capitol crawl, where folks with disabilities went to the Capitol and chair users got out of their chairs and crawled up the steps, as you can imagine how challenging and harrowing that was for folks. But it was just to demonstrate what it means to not be able to access the heart of the government. And the images from that were really iconic and pushed the passage of the ADA over the finish line. And one thing that is, I think, really quite remarkable about the ADA is how bipartisan it is and that it was signed into law by George H.W. bush. You know, you had key champions of the law from both parties. There's Senator Bob Dole, you had Senator Tom Harkin. And so it really is this sort of amazing bipartisan accomplishment. And it's broken down into different titles, which kind of control sort of different aspects or different types of discrimination by different entities. And so what we're talking about today is Title 2 of the ADA, which prohibits discrimination by state and local governments in their services, programs, and activities. So that's sort of a brief history of where the statute came from.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you so much, Rebecca, for walking us through the history of the ada. I think it's really, really important that our listeners understand how we got to this point. This question is for Kristen. What are some examples of how web content and mobile apps are designed in a way that can be difficult for people with disabilities to navigate, in ways that people may not realize?

[C]

Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. So websites and mobile apps can be designed or set up in ways that create unnecessary barriers for people with disabilities. Just like in the, you know, the built environment, how stairs leading to a building, you know, are going to make it difficult for, like, someone who uses a wheelchair to use that building Barriers online can similarly keep people out of that space or keep them from using an online service. And this is because people with disabilities navigate the web in a variety of ways. For example, people who are blind might use what are called screen readers, which is a tool that kind of reads aloud the content on a website or a mobile app and allows the person to interact with it. So, you know, some other examples of barriers on the web could be something as straightforward as what's called poor color contrast, right? Like think of light yellow text with a white background. That's going to be really difficult for anyone to read, but it can keep someone who has low vision or colorblindness from getting that information at all. Similar, kind of like the way things are coded, right? Like on the back end, that impacts how a person, again, who's using something like a screen reader is able to use the site. So think of something like a form, right? You're going to fill out a form, I don't know, to register to vote, and there's a bunch of labels on it. If those are not coded properly, it is going to keep a person who's using that screen reader or other piece of assistive technology from being able to complete and submit that form. So, you know, when you just take a step back and think about, like, the breadth and the critical nature of the services that state and local governments offer online, you can see how this, like, an inaccessible site can create real barriers to someone's everyday life, right? Like even perhaps their ability to get emergency information in a timely manner. So Just all in all, if things that are offered digitally are not accessible, it's going to leave some people out of those environments.

[A]

Okay, great. Yeah, I think it, I think that just really goes to show you how important it is for, for us to make sure we have these standards in the ada as government services rely more and more on web content and mobile applications. One thing that I did have a question about is, so the ADA has been around for three decades now, and my understanding is that web content regulations have also been around for a long while, a part of the ada. So why is this rule different? Why is this rule important to come out now to help local governments continue to have guidance around web content and mobile applications?

[B]

Well, there actually haven't been specific technical standards governing the websites of state and local governments or their mobile apps until this rule. So the ADA has, is very broad and has, you know, number of different, you know, requirements and covers, you know, sort of almost everything that state and local governments do. And so there aren't going to be specific regulations governing every aspect of the, the statute, every requirement for the statute. When the ADA was passed, you know, the, the Internet was just in its, in its infancy. And so the ADA doesn't itself doesn't mention, you know, the, the Internet or, or web accessibility. But, but the way that the statute was crafted was that it's sort of with an anticipation that, that the world could change, that technology could, could change. And so it has these sort of general requirements that, that can sort of evolve with the changing, changing world. And so the ADA has always required, you know, state and local governments to provide individuals with disabilities with effective communication with reasonable modifications, with an equal opportunity to participate or benefit from their services, programs and activities. And these requirements have applied in, to the services that state and local governments have provided online since they started providing them online, and to mobile apps since they started providing mobile apps. But because the department had not adopted specific technical requirements, there was not specific direction for state and local governments as to how they would go about and comply. And for years, the department was asked for clarity on what exactly the ADA required for state and local governments websites. This rule really provides that clarity and it's the first time that the government has provided that clarity for state and local governments. And, and so it provides this very, you know, this specific technical standard that has, you know, the elements that Kristin was describing before, and it really is the first, you know, it's the first ADA rule that does that. So that's why this rule is, you know, different from other rules that have been promulgated.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's so important. I mean, I would encourage our listeners to definitely check out, you know, those technical standards because it is so detailed and so it's eye opening about all that is required to make sure web content and mobile applications need to be accessible for people in ways that I think a lot of people take for granted and can easily overlook. So speaking of those technical details in the guideline, at first glance, I think if you're looking at might feel onerous and very difficult, like, oh my God, how are we supposed to make sure we adhere to all these guidelines and details? But at a high level, can you tell our listeners what an accessible webpage might look like to the untrained eye, if that's possible.

[C]

So to the untrained eye, an accessible webpage isn't going to look any different. It's going to look like a regular web page. But you might feel a difference because it will probably be easier to use. And that's because there's a good amount of overlap between accessibility and usability. Things that are more accessible tend to be easier for everyone to use. So while you may not be able to see that difference, you might feel it, you might be like, hey, like this is such like an easy experience of being on the site. And then of course to someone you know with a disability who's using a piece of assistive technology, for example, hopefully their experience is very different because they'll be like, oh, I can complete this form, simple, say to reserve a county park pavilion and I'm able to complete the transaction online. Right. They don't need to call someone at the county and then do the reservation with that person over the phone. And I think that also just connects this point to the point that there are efficiencies in this type of accessible online content for the state and local governments as well. Right. They don't need a person on the phone talking through the park pavilion reservation either. And of course there's many other kind of, you know, applications of that example, like paying for taxes or a parent getting their kids like school updates online as opposed to needing to call the office. So just again, the website might not look different, but certainly people will be able to feel the implications.

[A]

Let me ask maybe the question in the negative. What does a poorly designed website from accessibility looks like? Or what are some very common issues that people have with websites that make it difficult for them to navigate that we might not think about as an issue?

[C]

Sure. So an example that comes to mind is a Lack of captions. So you have a town hall or something that you have a video stream for or something. It doesn't have captions. It's not going to be usable to people who are deaf. I was talking a few minutes ago about forms. If you, if you are using, you know, you're trying to tab through a form and it's going like out of order or getting stuck, that's going to be probably prohibitively difficult for someone with a disability to use. And again, there's a lot of stuff that you, if you are not using assistive technology or don't have a disability that you might not feel. So, something like an image, right? We use images all the time on the web to convey information. Be a chart, be a map. If those do not have what's called alt text, which is basically descriptive language on the back end that tells the screen reader to read that aloud so that the person knows what's in the image. The person using the screen reader won't know what that image is of at all. And it could contain vital information.

[B]

And. Can I, can I just jump in? Just, you know, another, another example that we haven't touched on is, you know, for folks with manual dexterity issues, right? They may need to navigate using a keyboard versus a mouse.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And you know, if, if you're using a website and say you don't have a mouse, need to use, use a keyboard, like that is, you know, something that is really can, you know, is sort of based in accessibility, but can be usable for everyone. The same is true, you know, with color contrast. If the color contrast is really bad, like you're not going to love looking at a website where the colors are sort of hard to differentiate from, from each other. And you know, this is just so true kind of across the board. You know, Kristin mentioned captions. I mean, who hasn't sat in and you know, sports bar. Well, maybe lots of people haven't said in the sports bar, but, but, you know, looking up at the screen and trying to follow what's what. The, you know, the, the event that you're watching, you know, you will need captions to really understand what's happening. And you know, if you're pushing a stroller or trying to, you know, make a delivery, you know, having curb cuts is just so, so useful. And so many of the sort of features of the world that you see that are sort of based in accessibility are actually just great for, for, for everyone. And I, I did just want to, just want to, you know, sort of jump in with one quick little anecdote about kind of, you know, some of the concerns that had been raised traditionally by state and local governments about, you know, having accessible websites or, you know, well, this is. This can be expensive. And nowadays it's actually, you know, the costs have really come down for so much with respect to accessibility. And recently, you know, I think we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that Chris and I were working on this project and we had this friend build this website for us and we knew we were going to have to update it. And I. And I realized, like, we couldn't always call on him. I mean, he's a great person, but we weren't going to be able to call on him to make all the changes that we needed. And so I, who is. I have no. I mean, I haven't programmed a computer since I was like, in, you know, I don't know, like seventh grade. And my parents got a computer and I taught it how to, like, you know, make different musical notes. I'm not a coder, but I went on to Claude code and was able to recreate the website with all these additional pages and functionality just by telling Cloud Code what to do. And the website that our friend had created for us was completely accessible. And I think he was skeptical that my website would be too. But as I was creating the website, I kept telling Claude Code, make sure that this is complies with WCAG 2.2 level AA. And when we tested that website, it was accessible. And so now accessibility, and the accessibility of websites is really kind of at almost everyone's. Everyone's fingertips.

[A]

That's fascinating. I didn't realize Cloud could even do that. When you talk about, hey, mixtures can compliance with ADA code. So that's really cool. Let's get into implementation of it. So right now, my understanding is that the rule says that local governments who have, who are over a population of 50,000 individuals have to comply with these rules by the end of this month, August 2020, sorry, this August, April 2026. And any governments that have below that population threshold, they have another year to comply, essentially what have. And I know y', all, y' all are not a part of the DOJ anymore, but when you were implementing this rule or working on this rule, what did you hear from local governments and them saying and them having to comply with this rule?

[B]

Well, I mean, I think one of the things that I just, you know, want to. Want to stress is that this is not. It's not a new requirement that the, you know, services Are have to be accessible. The services of state and local governments have to be accessible. That's just an ongoing requirement. And so this just provides the technical standards that folks can comply with. And so, you know, we had, as I mentioned before, we had received requests for clarity. You know, folks wanted to know what they could do to comply with this requirement that was, you know, in effect from the time that the law was passed. You know, and you're right. So no longer at the department. So I can't say specifically what state and local governments are saying, you know, have been saying recently, but I will say that, you know, after the rule was put out, and it was put out in April 2024, so that was two years ago. So these larger entities were kind of have had this two year Runway for compliance and the smaller entities have a three year Runway for compliance. And we put out a number of resources to explain what the rule required. I think Kristin will flag those for folks in a little bit. And you know, so that, so that folks could really understand kind of like what, you know, what the responsibilities are. And also just the rule itself sort of responds to some concerns that state and local governments had. So it provides certain flexibilities and exceptions to make it just sort of more, you know, sort of easier for state and local governments to comply with and for them to really focus on the areas that are going to be most important for folks with disabilities.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. And that actually gets me to a question I have for Christian. So we talked about a little bit earlier, you know, this amazing process that allow for open, open comment on. On a draft rule. So I imagine y' all had an open comment period for this rule as it was coming out. I imagine at this point like three, two to three years ago. What were some, what was some of the feedback that you heard in the initial draft rule that stood out to you that ultimately impacted, you know, the final rule change as you were working on it before, before you left the doj.

[C]

Sure. Yes, we, we love public comment and the public comment process just starting with a fun fact. All of the public comments that were received on the draft roll, as you pointed out, are available on regulations.gov even now, so anyone can go check them out there. I also just want to note at the outset that the topic of this rule has a long history. The first rulemaking document on the issue of web accessibility was actually issued in 2010. And then there were various other opportunities for feedback along the way. So it has had the benefit of time to get public feedback but turning to this final rule, in the final rule document itself, the Department of Justice summarizes the feedback that it received and describes how it updated the rule in response to that feedback. One example that sticks out to me is, is that in the draft version of the rule, the Department included an exception for certain types of, like, school course content, which basically meant that that certain type of school course content would not have needed to be made accessible to the technical standard affirmatively. Like, from the outset, it was more of, like, a reactive posture. And the department, you know, says in the final rule that it got a bunch of feedback from the public highlighting the various and many issues with that proposed exception. And, you know, the document goes on to say that in response, they decided to get rid of that exception, which means that that certain type of school course content would need to affirmatively be made accessible from the outset. So that is definitely an area that sticks out to me. And then, like, on a more personal level, the comments, the types of comments that really stuck with me were the stories that people told, right. The lived experiences and the explanations of how the rule would play out on, like, a really practical level, both for people with disabilities and, like, people who work in the state and local government offices that are going to need to be implementing these rules. So, you know, a comment that's like, hey, my kid, you know, uses a screen reader and they couldn't complete this homework assignment because it wasn't screen reader compatible. And, like, they were, like, excused from the assignment, but they basically just missed out on an entire learning opportunity or someone from, you know, a local government office who's like, hey, like, this is how, you know, this part of the role would play out for us and what we think, you know, might work. So going through the process. Yeah, those are the types of comments that kind of stuck out to me.

[A]

Yeah. So good to hear those. Those very specific stories. One question that I had, as you were mentioning, that is we talked about earlier that this is embedded in title two of the ada, which is focused on governments. What about the private sector who also develop websites and mobile apps? Where does that come into play as people interact with those online? I guess I'll throw it to Rebecca and Christian. If you have something, let me know.

[B]

Yeah, so I mean, it's quite a different framework for businesses. You know, if I'm sort of hedging a little bit, it's because there aren't ADA regulations governing the specific requirements for public accommodations. And so this is an issue that's been going through the courts and so, you know, it's, the courts have treated sort of web accessibility in, you know, for businesses. You know, there's variations in the way that the courts have treated those websites and those situations. I mean, you know, but that being said, the, the standard that, that was adopted by the Department of Justice here, or even the more recent WCAG standard, you know, would be. There's, there's no reason that, that businesses can't adopt the same standard. I mean, people with disabilities shop just like everyone, everybody shops. And so, um, you know, and for some of the reasons we talked about earlier, accessible websites are just largely just sort of quite usable by everybody. And so, you know, I think that there's, there would be a strong kind of just natural incentive for businesses to make their, their websites accessible as well. And now, you know, with state and local governments, you have a lot of vendors who are going to be responding to the need for state and local governments. Those can also respond to the need of businesses as well.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So this rule is coming out and it's not finalized. Right. So my understanding is that there's still, even though there's guidance of this deadline coming up for April 24, 2026, that the rule is still going through a review period within the federal government. Can you walk our listeners through, you know, what that looks like and why this rule is still subject to maybe some changes or tweaks before it gets fully finalized?

[B]

Sure. So, so first of all, the rule, the rule is finalized.

[C]

Okay?

[A]

It's finalized.

[B]

It is a final rule. It was final in April 2024. We have, you know, the effective dates the, are coming up that we talked about earlier, you know, one April 24, 2026 and one April 24, 2027, governing different, different size entities. But, and, and, and I really apologize. This is going to be a little wonky. I'm, I'm, I'm going to answer your

[A]

question, but I love wonky.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard to do without, you know, in, in a non wonky way. But what has. So when the Department of Justice or any sort of agency is sort of working on a rule, you don't know what the rule says.

[C]

Right.

[B]

They can't tell you what they're actually saying until they make it public, until they publish it. Right. And they don't largely tell you kind of what is happening, you know, behind the scenes. But in the regulatory process, there are these certain public events. And one of the public events is when an agency that's been sort of working on a rule in the agency then gives that rule to the Office of Management and Budget for what's called Executive Order 12866 review, which is essentially just. They take the rule and they, they circulate it around the federal government through to interested agencies to see if there's, you know, anything amiss, to make sure that there's, you know, there aren't issues that hadn't been anticipated. And so it recently became a public event that the Department of Justice was looking at what's called an interim final rule that would impact this Title 2 rule rule. Because all we know is that there is an interim final rule that has gone that went from the Department of Justice to the Office of Management and Budget. And then more recently last week, there was an indication that that rule went from the Office of Management and Budget back to doj. In other words, the Office of Management and Budget had completed its interagency review. Because. Because that's all we know. We have. We don't know what the interim final rule would do to the. To the web rule. You know, certainly folks can speculate and folks have speculated about the types of ways that an interim final rule could impact this rule. You know, it could be change in compliance state, it could be changing things that are substantive of the rule, but we have no idea. We don't know. We just don't know. You know, so it really, to some extent doesn't. Doesn't make sense. Sense to speculate. But what it does mean and, and certainly for. For state and local governments is just to keep an eye on it, like, just be aware that this is out there and that there might be something that comes up. You know, that being said, the, the requirement for state and local governments to have their web services, programs and activities accessible rests in the statute itself, which is not changed by the interim final rule, was not changed, in essence by our rule. We just provided clarity. So it makes sense always for state and local governments to ensure that their websites and mobile apps are accessible, whether or not the compliance deadline is looming or not.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. You still got to do the work. It's still important. So I think it's important to. For our listeners to know that. Okay, so when this rule gets, when we get to the deadline, then I imagine we're looking at enforcement. So what does enforcement for a rule like this look like? And how has the Department of Justice, when y' all were there, traditionally handled enforcement of ADA rule regulations in the past?

[B]

So, you know, as I think I should, it's worth clarifying. You Know, we're talking about kind of what the Department of Justice does. And, you know, they can, as we've talked about before, bring suits, you know, whether or not this law is in effect. And so when I was at the department, we brought lawsuits for web accessibility against state or local governments based on the statute itself. Since I'm not at the department, I can't speak to what they're doing now. But what I can say is there are certain regulations that govern how the Department of justice enforces Title 2 of the ADA. So if the department, you know, was, was interested in, in bringing an enforcement action, they'd be required to, you know, where appropriate, attempt informal resolution. Then if they can't reach a resolution and a violation is found, they would issue a letter of findings and that letter of findings to the state or local government entity. And so there are these kind of steps that, that, that you have in the enforcement process. You don't just jump straight into, into litigation. But I, I did want to say these regulations also allow for, in the statute, also allows for. It has what's called a private right of action, which means that individuals can sue. So whether or not the department is engaging in enforcement actions, individuals can engage in, you know, in enforcement actions. And so that, that is kind of, you know, key to keep in mind that it's not just about federal enforcement. You know, the regulations have a number of sort of built in flexibilities. So, you know, you mentioned that, you know, things could be, you know, hard or state and local governments may have raised issues or have concerns. You know, the rule itself, really response to those, not just in sort of, you know, the preamble, but in the, in the rule itself by providing certain, you know, flexibilities to help government entities with their compliance. So like, here's an example that's just taken directly off, you know, the DOJ's own website. You know, for a lot of state and local governments, it would be hard to make all of their social media posts accessible. It may be impossible. And there also may be limited value to making those old posts accessible because they were usually intended to provide updates about things that were happening at that time. And so for those reasons, the state and local government social media posts made before the date, before the effective date don't need to meet this standard. And so, you know, this exception would apply to say that if There was a 2017 social media post by a city's sanitation department announcing that trash collection would be delayed to a, due to a snowstorm, they don't have to do anything to make that accessible. They would have to give you information that was going to tell you what you had to do in the future. And after the effective date, they have to make sure that things like that are accessible, but they don't have to go back in time. And so, you know, there, there's also just sort of, you know, you mentioned that, you know, could be hard to be perfect. And I think that the regulations really acknowledge that and say that, you know, in some limited situations, state and local governments may be able to show that their web content or mobile apps, while they don't meet the very letter of the technical standards, the variation is so minor that it's not going to change a person with a disability's access to the content or mobile app. And if they can show that, then they're not violating the rule. And so I know I flagged this before. Kristin's going to talk about some of the resources, but this is all laid out on materials on ADA.gov.

[A]

yeah, that's good. That was going to my next question. So, Kristin, where can people go to find out more about this rule and tips on how to successfully implement it as we get to the deadline?

[C]

Yeah, if they go to ADA.gov, which is DOJ's website that provides information about the ADA and people's rights and responsibilities under the ada, you will find a variety of resources that help to explain this role. So there is a recorded webinar that folks can view. There is a compliance guide geared for small entities. In particular, there is a fact sheet which is like a higher level overview of the role. And there's a document that provides like quite actionable steps that covered entities, meaning state and local governments, can take towards compliance. And I think in many of these resources, the department links to like other helpful resources as well. So ad.gov might be a good place for folks to take a look.

[A]

Yeah, I'll make sure we also link those to the podcast episode so people can find it easily. I just want to thank y' all so much for being willing to have this conversation. I just think it's so timely given the, the deadline that's coming up for, for the vast majority of local governments. Before we close this, something that we ask all of our, our guests, if you could be the Golov DJ for this episode, what song would you pick as your exit music for this episode? So I'll do Rebecca then Kristen.

[B]

Yeah, I, I definitely gave this a lot of thought and while I feel really kind of guilty that I didn't pick a Prince song. Given what a big fan I am, I actually picked the song Colorful by jukebox the Ghost. They're a band that was founded in D.C. and this song is really, it's just so upbeat and so filled with joy. And it's also sort of encouraging, encourages innovation and to try something new to make the world a little colorful and, you know, take your fears and let them go. And as somebody who just left, you know, the Justice Department, you know, this past year and is trying all these new things, I feel like it's just a very, it's just very inspiring, inspiring me to be say on this podcast. So that's great. That's what I would pick.

[A]

Thank you. All right, Kristen, how about you?

[C]

I love that. I would also suggest Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield because. Right. The rule is its own thing now. I'm not at DOJ anymore, but this rule exists in the world and it's kind of now up to all of us to decide how we approach it and how we help make sure that state and local government services work for everyone.

[A]

I love that. And where can our listeners go to follow your professional journeys now that you all have left the doj? Where can they find your work as you continue to be such strong advocates for disability rights?

[B]

Well, I can jump in. I mean, Definitely I'm on LinkedIn. I am working in terms of the new things that you gonna do to have a substack where I have, I guess there's, there's one post that was that I've written that's on there. But yeah, there's definitely a lot more to come. So I'd say probably LinkedIn is the place that would be easiest to find. What next?

[A]

Definitely follow you.

[C]

Thank you. Yes, same here. LinkedIn and we will be providing updates on what we are up to.

[A]

Yeah, I love it. Thank you all again. So that ends our govlove episode for today. Thank you again Rebecca and Kristen for coming on and talking with me. GovLove is brought to you by EOGL and the best way to support Gov Love is to become EOG member. You can reach us online at elgo.org govlove or @govlove podcast on LinkedIn, Instagram and X. Subscribe to Gov Love on your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Friday. If you are already subscribed to Gov Love, go tell a friend or colleague about this podcast or share on social media. Help us spread the word that govlove is the go to place for local government stories. Thank you for listening this has been Gov Love a podcast about local government.

[C]

Take a deep breath, make the world a little colorful.