← GovLove - A Podcast About Local Government
GovLove - A Podcast About Local Government
#731 One Hundred Years of Euclid v. Ambler and Local Zoning Power with Anthony Flint, Lincoln Institute of Land Policy
00:52:28
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- [00:01]
Anthony Flint
All right.
- [00:10]
Ben Kittleson
Hey, y'. All. Coming to you from Jacksonville, Florida, this is govlove, a podcast about local government brought to you by engaging local government leaders. I'm Ben Kittleson, manager of TELUS and govlove co host, and we have a great episode for you today. We're going to be talking about the history of zoning. But first, the best way to support GovLove is to become an Elgo member. Engaging local government leaders as a national volunteer run, member based nonprofit with a mission to engage the brightest minds in local government. Check us out and learn more about our $50 annual membership@ yieldgeal.org now let me introduce today's guest. Anthony Flint is a senior fellow at the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy, a research foundation focused on creative, nonpartisan approaches to land as a solution to economic, social and environmental challenges. He's the host of the Land Matters podcast and correspondent for Bloomberg City Lab and the Boston Globe. He's the author of several books and has served as a policy advisor on smart growth for the Massachusetts state government. With that, Anthony, welcome to GovLove. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [01:07]
Anthony Flint
Great to be here.
- [01:08]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. I'm excited for our very nerdy conversation today, but we have a tradition on govlove to start with. A lightning round to allow our guests to maybe warm up and let our listeners get to know you a little bit better. So my first question for you. What book are you currently reading?
- [01:23]
Anthony Flint
Here Comes the Sun by Bill McKibben. It's about 200 pages of absolute pure common sense about harnessing the power of the sun for energy going forward.
- [01:38]
Ben Kittleson
Yes, yes. The great climate change author. This is his latest book, right?
- [01:45]
Anthony Flint
Yes.
- [01:45]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. Very cool. I've got that on my long list. I need to track down or get myself a copy, but that's very cool. What's the last great movie or TV show that you watched and would recommend?
- [01:58]
Anthony Flint
I'm going to say song Sung Blue. My late mother was kind of a big Neil diamond fan and Kate Hudson's performance was just outstanding.
- [02:10]
Ben Kittleson
Okay, awesome. Yeah. With Hugh Jackman too. Am I remembering correctly? Okay, yeah, I think I saw a trailer for that. That's very cool. All right, then, my next liner crusher for you. What was the first concert that you went to?
- [02:24]
Anthony Flint
I was thinking about this and I believe it was Jackson Brown. And of course, with that response, I have instantly doubted myself accordingly.
- [02:34]
Ben Kittleson
That's fair. What era, may I ask, Jackson Brown was this? Because I have to say, I'm a big Jackson Brown fan, but I've never Seen him live.
- [02:43]
Anthony Flint
So late 70s. Yeah, about that late 70s when I was in high school and continued to just love. And of course, all of these. The other one was Squeeze. And I've noticed that all these bands are coming out on tour more recently and sort of doing a revival or, you know, whatever you call it, sort of aging rocker tours and so. But yeah, I was a wistful high school teenager and listening to Jackson Brown. Yes.
- [03:22]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. Love it. Love it. All right, then, my last line. Air question for you. Where do you go for inspiration?
- [03:28]
Anthony Flint
I guess I would say the beach. I'm here in Boston, and we go to a beach on the south coast of Rhode island, sort of across from Block island. And it's just nice to go there and, you know, watch the crashing waves.
- [03:44]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Disconnect a little bit from the day and the day job and the. And the kind of bustle of Boston, I imagine. All right. I'm always curious how folks kind of ended up, you know, in the place they are in their career. And I know, you know, for a lot of our guests who work in local government, it's always interesting to hear how they end up doing this. But I'm curious for you, like, how did you end up kind of doing this kind of research? And we'll talk about some of the. Know, the writings you've done and some of your books as part of our conversation today. But, like, how did you end up, you know, getting into this, you know, in this line of work and kind of in the role you're in today for the Lincoln Institute?
- [04:23]
Anthony Flint
I've been a journalist all my professional career and worked my way up smaller newspapers. Ended up at the Boston Globe, and I ended up writing about land use and development and urban planning and a little bit of architecture. And that really just stayed with me through my career at the Boston Globe. I was City hall bureau chief, and there was a lot of development and planning going on. The Big Dig, you might know. Oh, yeah, big project I covered. And I guess I just got my nerdy credentials all through that. But it was also land use and housing. You know, it was a big topic. And it was all about, you know, the way we live and what happens to the landscape and the environment. So I became interested in that. And then I briefly worked in state government in the equivalent of a smart growth office for Massachusetts under then Governor Mitt Romney. And that was great experience. I wouldn't trade that for anything. I think all journalists somehow should be able to work for government for a bit and then I came to the Lincoln Institute about 2006 and I continue to do my writing and research and freelance work for places like, as you mentioned, Bloomberg and Boston Globe.
- [06:01]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. What is it about land use or zoning that's kind of kept you coming back? Because I could see how, hey, when something big like the Big Dig project, which also had a great podcast series not too long ago now about it, but something like that's going on, like I can see how you totally get in the weeds, but then the news moves on and something else takes its place. But what's kept you kind of staying in the land use in realm?
- [06:26]
Anthony Flint
Yeah, I mean, I think it's just it has staying power because it is relevant one way or the other to everyday lives. And you know, how we commute, how long it takes, whether we can afford a home, and also just the appearance of the built environment, which is a phrase that we use, but it really just means our surroundings and the physical landscape. And I think often land use and design is sort of tied together, especially when you get into issues like density. The design of our buildings and our landscapes and public spaces are so important. And it's something we engage with every day.
- [07:21]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I know I said a little bit about the Lincoln Institute as part of your kind of intro, but can you maybe for our listeners tell a little about the kind of work that the Institute does And if there's anything you kind of want to highlight from the organization, we'll also have to link to your podcast as well, so folks can check that out.
- [07:43]
Anthony Flint
Yeah, I am here at the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy. It's a private operating foundation, 501c3, a research organization, international think tank. And we our tagline is Finding Answers in Land. So we look at the role of land and land use and land policy through all of the big themes of the day, whether it's housing, affordable housing, or the environment and climate change and climate resilience, land conservation, and also supporting local government. We do a lot, lot of work on the property tax and local public finance, so we delve into that aspect as well. Local government being so important and funding local government is a big focus of ours.
- [08:53]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah, very cool. And so I invited you on to govlove because you wrote an article not too long ago now about the 100 year anniversary of a pretty major Supreme Court case that even if you didn't know as a local government staffer about it, it impacts your work and what you do every day. Euclid v. Ambler and it seems 20, 26. I can't believe it's been 100 years. I guess I want to kind of go through some of the points you made in that article and talk about kind of the impact of that court case. But maybe just for context, what was the status quo before 1926, before that case comes down? What was land use like, oh, those many decades ago?
- [09:41]
Anthony Flint
Well, it was a little bit. My wife actually said this morning, was asking about it and said, was it a little bit of a free for all? And it was. There was urban planning. You had Haussmann's Paris planners and builders organizing cities, putting in sewer and water and sewer systems. And so there was an organized approach to our cities. But the industrial revolution, late 1800s, that's where you saw the manufacturing come in to our major cities, places like Cleveland or Pittsburgh, you can kind of picture where there were factories, a lot of pollution. There was also a great deal of immigration and the matter of housing, immigration and workers. And so it was a bit messy. And a lot of the impetus for zoning was indeed public health concerns. So you didn't want a smelter to be next door to a tenement house. And so New York City and Berkeley, California, actually were some of the first places to establish a comprehensive zoning. And that was around 1916. And it was an attempt to have a place for everything and everything in its place, in the words of Bill Fishel, who's a wonderful Dartmouth professor, who actually wrote a book for the Lincoln Institute called Zoning Rules to get organized. And they. And so cities did this through zoning. So that was around 1916. And then 10 years later, it came to a head with the Ambler vs. Euclid Supreme Court case that affirmed the ability of local government to impose. To establish zoning.
- [12:07]
Ben Kittleson
Okay. Yeah. So sort of patchwork beforehand, free for all. And I think even in your article, you note that there were some cases where, like the example of the tannery next to a residential building was real. And so having a little bit of more. There was an understandable desire from the local government to say, hey, maybe we can do this in a more organized fashion. And so I don't know if. Are there any maybe details of the Euclid case to stand out to you? And then we could talk about maybe the ruling and what sort of power it gave. But what was maybe some of the. Are there any details from that case that kind of led to its. The reason it went to the Supreme Court?
- [12:46]
Anthony Flint
Well, this is in the village of Euclid, which, by the way, was a Name. It's an interesting trivia that it was named by a bunch of land surveyors who came out from Connecticut and established the town. So they were fond of this sort of geometry of the landscape, named it Euclid. And this is a suburb just east of Clevel. And the town barred a real estate company, essentially, from using their land for industrial use because they wanted to effectively zone the area as residential. Developers sued went all the way to the supreme court. And the 1926 ruling, famously garnished by Justice George Sutherland's comment that a factory shouldn't be in a residential area any more than a pig in a parlor. Wonderful stuff. And gave constitutional blessing to establishing permissible uses on specific, you know, areas of town. So, yeah, they said, yep, that was, okay. You can do this, and you should do this. And it left us with the concept of separated use, that is residential in one part of town, commercial and retail in another, manufacturing and industrial uses in yet another. So it was truly a landmark ruling. It stayed with us ever since and gave us the zoning that basically we see today.
- [14:37]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. Yeah. Well. And if I'm recalling my public administration coursework correctly, it's the fact that if there is a zoning sort of ordinance that applies to the whole city, that's enough. That's justification for. That's all that a city has to do is like, hey, there's uniform rules for the place. This is what we're laying out. And that's kind of all that they need. There's no other. Just. It kind of doesn't matter the details of, like, what the zoning makes up. It's just that there needs to be some. The power they have to establish those rules is, you know, kind of. It gives a lot of freedom, I guess, to the communities in terms of what those details look like.
- [15:15]
Anthony Flint
Yeah. And the broad concept was that, yes, local governments, municipalities, they do have. It is actually a police power to essentially organize and map out who lives where and what goes where.
- [15:34]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah. Well. And, you know, we'll kind of slowly transition to the impact. But, like, as soon as maybe that ruling comes down, how does that start to change? Or, I don't know, your opinions or kind of what you've seen in your research and your work over the years. But, like, how does that start to change our built environment and the way cities approach zoning and the uses within cities?
- [15:58]
Anthony Flint
Well, I think you got to. So this is the 1920s, then the 1930s. You got to remember, this was the pioneering and incredibly impactful development of the car, the private automobile. And so it's really tied together with car and land use and the, the car allowed everybody to, to get around and, and sort of bust out, including businesses bust out of downtowns and, and essentially spread out. So my observation is that it basically set in motion the, I would say, unique phenomenon of American suburban sprawl. And again this concept of separated use. So we were often running with big single family subdivisions that were sort of further and further out. And then of course the interstate highway system through the 50s, places like Levittown really, really shaped. It's so interesting how a Supreme Court case could do this, but I guess this is true in other aspects of society, but it really set in motion, you know, like the landscape that, that, that we see today. So through the 50s and, and, and 60s, this, the, the, I guess I would call it the, the dominance of the single family subdivision.
- [17:38]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, and it's curious because like, you know, I think it's not the, it's not just residential versus industrial, which you know, I think most folks, that's pretty common sense. But like there was even, I think a characterization either in the case or around the case originally that like an apartment building may not be desirable in a neighborhood and that's seen as a parasite and like that you hear the same kind of pushback when you try to build, you know, denser development and single family neighborhoods now. And so, you know, I'm curious like your perspective on like yes, there's a sprawl component. Obviously the car had an impact. But like what was, you know, how did the apartment and like the density like lead to the zoning case? Lead to some of that conversation around like maybe just single family residential is like the, the, the base case, the thing that we're just going to assume most neighborhoods should be.
- [18:33]
Anthony Flint
Well this is really where it gets complex as a society because there were other things going on. One is a racial component, another was kind of a class component in the sense that with immigrants and others, this ambition to have areas of town that were sort of more luxurious, even if it was just for more middle class and largely white middle class population. And that, you know, that's where you got this idea with Justice Sutherland sort of throwing fuel on the fire by calling an apartment building a parasite. That. Well, you know, those are, maybe this has to do with sort of those other people, you know, packed into more, more density. And that is somehow, you know, that is viewed as not desirable. So it really established that kind of character of who lives where. And you know, some of it is not pretty looking Back at it. And I mean, the racial component is really prominent too.
- [20:06]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah. No, Richard Rothstein's the color of law, I think gets exactly this, like some of the, like, you know, explicit segregation that was built in some of those land use, you know, ordinances and developments
- [20:18]
Anthony Flint
and the redlining and all of that, you know, that was, you can't draw a straight line, but that flowed from, from the Euclid decision and the development of single family subdivisions, for sure.
- [20:34]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, you're exactly right. Not necessarily like explicitly from Euclid, but the color of law, some of the impact around segregation, you can't just unpeel that from the allowance of zoning. And it's also, I had a professor, I think that, and this has always stuck with me, that when I was in grad school, talk about, you know, if I can tell you the minimum lot size and the minimum size of a, of a unit and what can get built there, I, I can keep out different kinds of people and I don't have to make it explicit. So there's this explicit version that we got in lots of places as part of zoning and also this implicit like, hey, we can keep out different classes and types of people just by their economic circumstances through, through land use. And so, you know, I'm curious, you know, as we, you know, it's been 100 years, it's now 2026. Looking back on, on the Euclid v. Ambler case, other than, you know, something that a lot of MPA students or land use nerds know about, what. What do you think has been the impact of that ruling and some of the things that have come out of it to this day?
- [21:34]
Anthony Flint
Well, I think the big takeaway is, look, this was 100 years ago and zoning is just outdated. It hasn't kept up with the times. And affordability is probably the biggest driver of reassessing our separated use zoning that was codified by Euclid. The demographics alone, much fewer children. In the future, going to have much more single households or professional couples without kids. They're looking for places to live that are rich in amenities, maybe walkable, maybe can use transit. And this is more sort of urban development. Denser by definition. Denser and multifamily. Multifamily tends to be more affordable. Not always the case, especially in hot markets. But generally, if you increase supply and the range of options of housing, you're not faced with what can be a very expensive single family home that all these municipalities have zoned for, so hasn't kept up. And the impact has Been sort of to look back and say, well, you know, what have we done? And how about looking at ways to change it so that there can be different kinds of development, mixed use as well versus separated use. People want that. And, you know, I think we've seen that in especially the hot market cities across the country or really around the world.
- [23:27]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah. Well, it is funny. I mean, you go to a lot of places and you know, the most desirable neighborhoods now or the most, the place where folks want to spend their, their evenings and their weekends are often like the parts of town that were developed before zoning. And they might be, you know, a downtown in a, you know, a small, small beach town that's got that mixed use or, you know, looking at like Boston, like, you know, most of that kind of inner core was, was, you know, laid out and built long before zoning. And so it's these places that, you know, are kind of thriving and desirable were also, you know, not the result of something that could have been built only because of Euclid v. Ambler.
- [24:06]
Anthony Flint
Right? Yeah, no, it's fascinating there. It's a kind of re. Legalizing stuff that made that Euclid made illegal. And it just, you know, makes no sense for a lot of people. And there's kind of a back to the future notion here where these neighborhoods with more density and an urban setting is really much more desirable. And when developers go to build that, responding largely, I'm oversimplifying, but responding in large part to the market demand, they find out, oh, you can't do that. It's illegal to build, you know, the village of Concord, Massachusetts today, or the south end in Boston.
- [25:02]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. It's funny, I live in historic district of Jacksonville and like the. There are parts of. Or there's developments, there's apartment buildings. There are things that like, make this neighborhood what it is that couldn't be built today even with the historic design, like, like design review or whatever. Like you can't build, you know, an eight unit complex and some of the lots anymore because of, you know, the zoning that was adopted after the neighborhood was mostly laid out. You're right. That's kind of what's old is new again in some ways.
- [25:36]
Anthony Flint
Yes, yes, absolutely.
- [25:38]
Ben Kittleson
No, I'm curious, before we kind of get to some of the reforms that we're starting to see across the country, was there an alternative to Euclidean zoning where this kind of separate uses, was there another like, you know, version of the case that might have been possible if, you know, if not for Kind of the, the allowing of this, this exact police power for, for kind of cities or are you aware of like, I don't know if it's form based codes which are becoming, you know, more, the more common now, or if there were other kind of options other than, you know, allowing kind of a free for all or, or Euclidean zoning as kind of the, the two extremes.
- [26:11]
Anthony Flint
What, what we built, generally speaking, prior to 1920 was the kind of, as we've talked about, the kind of development in neighborhoods that is much more desirable today. They were then and, and, and they are now. And, and so the contrast is this sort of spreading out and. Zoning. Here's another fun trivia fact that you can talk about at cocktail parties. Zoning was actually effectively imported from Germany around the turn of the last century. And it's interesting, there was a form of, that was actually allowed mixed use and encouraged mixed use. And then we kind of put our American spin on it and separated the uses. So yes, there was an alternative, but this is just the way it unfolded. And again, I can't emphasize enough that it was sort of hand in hand with the growing use of the automobile and ultimately highways.
- [27:23]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't, yeah, you can't untangle those for sure. Okay, so to your point about, hey, maybe Euclid has had its time and zoning hasn't been able to keep pace with changing demands and demographic changes. What are some of the reforms that we're starting to see across the country that are maybe challenging that traditional Euclidean zoning?
- [27:46]
Anthony Flint
Well, there are 33 states that are doing zoning reform, possibly more. That's the last count by the Mercatus center, which by the way co hosted a symposium on all of this earlier this year. And the reason people are talking about this is that they're looking at what zoning has become and importantly how it's been effectively used by those who want to prevent any growth or change or further development. The so called not in my backyard phenomenon. And some of the rules and regulations have just kind of ossified and they've become super complicated. And then they've really just become barriers to reasonable growth and especially establishing multifamily and mixed use. So 33 states, some kind of zoning reform this includes. And everybody should get ready for this. It's a bit of a technical list, but it's allowing mixed use residential over retail, allowing more density in single family zones. Some folks may have heard of places like Minneapolis and Oregon effectively banning single family only zoning. And so this is saying, hey, you can build a duplex or, or a fourplex or the so called missing middle housing in these zones, especially if it is more multifamily, a little bit more density near transit or on vacant or underutilized land that's in more of a downtown or town center. Other things like reducing or eliminating minimum parking requirements. And this is the scenario where a developer wants to build a multifamily project. Let's say it's right at a transit station. And some of these old rules say you've got to have two parking spaces for every unit. You know, it just makes no sense. And of course it increases costs, construction costs and makes everything less affordable. Streamlining, permitting. See a lot of this, California has been a real leader in this and you know, environmental regulations, hugely important. But what we've seen is that
- [30:32]
Ben Kittleson
the
- [30:34]
Anthony Flint
environmental approval process can be used to really just block or delay projects and you know, sort of just like maintain the status quo. You see a lot of that happening out in places like California. The final thing I'll say is that in terms of zoning reform, I'd recommend that everybody check out the National Zoning Atlas, which is led by Sarah Bronin. It is a assessment and analysis of this country's current zoning, which of course is like 3,000 plus local jurisdictions that control this. And where there is tension is that the local, local governments want to maintain their local control over land use. But what you are seeing is, is a state, it's effectively a state preemption or overriding, saying look, this is ridiculous. You've got to change these rules and allow at least you know, a little more density in these places, like near transit and loosen things up a bit. So it's been an interesting phenomenon to watch. It's a balance. Of course you want local governments to maintain control and they are. And some of this has gotten very contentious as a matter of fact of well, we don't want the state telling us what to do, but it's, it's kind of dismantling some of the, I guess what some people would say would be sort of like the excessive regulation and rules that are blocking development.
- [32:32]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, no, I think you're right on it. Yeah. And to your point around, I think it's a real challenge for our professionists as folks that work in and with local, local governments that, you know, our cities can't just, you know, be frozen in amber and like, hey, this is what they were like in 1926 or 1975 or 2004. They've got to kind of adapt and grow with the changing challenges of, you know, of the modern day. And so. And zoning, I mean, gets in the way of that. And so if, you know, I think if we as professionals in public administration can't help our communities, you know, embrace and battle the challenges of 2026, then I understand why states are coming in and saying, hey, we got to figure out this housing thing. California hasn't built enough housing in the last 50 years, and now it's one of the most expensive places to live. And I can see why the state has an opinion on that. I understand the tension with the local control piece, but I think we as a. As local government practitioners got to realize that we haven't met the moment. And there's. Across the country, land use is a real tool in our toolbox to solve some of these challenges that our communities are facing. And so I'll get it down off my soapbox, but, I mean, I think you're right on that. Part of why the states are stepping in is because local governments haven't done it and haven't stepped in.
- [33:54]
Anthony Flint
Yes. Yeah. And I think it's a recognition of a little bit of a shift or maybe kind of a major shift in public opinion. And this is tied, you know, wrapped up in the YIMBY movement. Yes. In my backyard. But it's essentially a kind of a frustration that, you know, your kids can't afford a house in the neighborhood or the city they want to live in. It's also a major economic factor for local economies. Ed Glaeser has done fantastic work on this. Where you have these booming cities, they could really be even more economic powerhouses, but for people to live there, they got to be able to afford to live there. So I think you're seeing some response to that shifting view about the inherent value of these rules and regulations and. And, you know, just going in, looking under the hood and, you know, seeing where they can be adjusted in some cases, it is just. It's. To me, it's just so obvious. You know, you have a vacant lot right next to a transit station or other underutilized land that is exactly the place for a little gentle density and mixed use.
- [35:25]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. No, I mean. Yeah, right on. And I think one of the interesting things you mentioned, 33 states across the country that have made some sort of reform. It's nonpartisan at that point. You know what I mean? It's not a blue, red issue.
- [35:38]
Anthony Flint
It's red and blue states alike. Yes. No, I'm glad you raised that. And an interesting place to check out is Montana, actually pretty red state and they're doing a lot of these reforms. And again, it's the affordability that that's really driving it.
- [35:56]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well, anything else about Euclid v. Ambler on this anniversary that we didn't talk about or anything else you want to kind of highlight for our listeners?
- [36:08]
Anthony Flint
Well, in my piece, I explore the possibility of, well, can this Supreme Court case be overturned? And I don't think it's an interesting, you know, thing to look at in terms of Supreme Court jurisprudence, but. And it's also linked to this idea of property rights and whether, you know, these. The free market libertarians are kind of jumping into this as well, to coming at it from that angle. So it's kind of a little bit of a strange bedfellows, but they have a point that over these 100 years, that these rules and regulations have kind of ossified and they are worth revisiting. So the libertarian free market angle is also interesting. The affordability factor is just so important. And that also, I think, feeds into the idea of what kind of communities do we want to have that maybe that has more socioeconomic and racial diversity, where multifamily allows people to build this generational wealth or at least get started along that path if they want to, and, you know, makes. Makes things more affordable. Right here in Massachusetts, in my hometown of Brookline, you know, we're dealing with this. The Massachusetts, the MBTA Communities act requires cities and towns that are served by the T to establish districts that allow 15 units per acre by right. And there's been a lot of pushback on this from various communities. But, you know, it's really a little bit. There's something minimal about this, is just like a little bit of density. You don't have to build that. You just have to zone for it and allow it. And that is seen as one sort of modest step towards changing the rules that Euclid established. And so it's really something to watch and something to consider in terms of that makeup of our communities. So, you know, it can reach that level of, you know, what we're actually talking about, which is sort of like, you know, our society and how we live.
- [39:34]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, well said. Well said. And I'll leave another little nerdy thing our listeners can take home is, you know, as I go around to different cities across the country, you'll often find a street that's named Euclid. So if you don't think developers knew how big of a deal that case was, like, there's lots of developments across this country where you'll find a street named Euclid after, I assume after the court case. And not the. Didn't you say it's also a mathematician from Greece or something?
- [40:07]
Anthony Flint
Yes, the Greek mathematician. That was originally what this band of surveyors that came out from Connecticut and established the village of Euclid. And you could kind of relate to the impulse. I mean, things were very messy at the time, and so you wanted to be organized and have this sort of impose this kind of geometrical framework on, on our land use.
- [40:34]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well, before we kind of end our conversation there, as I was prepping for this episode, I was kind of skimming through a couple of your, your, your, your, your works. And so I thought it would be kind of worth highlighting them because I think our listeners might, might get a lot out of them. But you've written a number of books, and I wanted to highlight a couple based on our conversation today and also what folks might be interested in. But you wrote a book recently called the Mayor's Desk, and so maybe we'll link to this in kind of the show Notes. But can you talk about that book and why you wanted to write it and sort of what sort of the impetus for it was and maybe what folks would find if they picked it up?
- [41:17]
Anthony Flint
Well, since about 2018, I've been interviewing mayors from around the world and really appreciating kind of a generation of municipal leaders that are innovative and creative and genuine and authentic and trying to be change agents at this local level. And that's really what led us to compile the first 20 of these interviews in a book published by the Lincoln Institute called Mayor's Desk. I continue to interview these municipal leaders. It's been so much fun. I just absolutely love it. These mayors, whether it's, you know, Aftab Pureval in Cincinnati, Paige Cagnetti in Scranton, Pennsylvania, or the bigger names from major cities. But I've looked at a range of cities. The last mayor I interviewed was the mayor of Fairbanks, Alaska. And I think it's just interesting to consider how these leaders are diving into this. And this is where the action is it at the local level. So that's been our ambition, is to continue to put the spotlight on these, on these local leaders. So, yeah, that's Mayor's Desk.
- [42:56]
Ben Kittleson
Awesome. So the book, did that draw from some of your interviews on the Land Matters podcast, or is this sort of its own creation?
- [43:05]
Anthony Flint
Well, what I've done is generally when I interview the mayors, it's an article in Landlines magazine, which is our in house magazine. But then I double it as a podcast episode. So most of these are available as interviews on the Land Matters podcast. And then we edit it down a little bit for the print for appearing in Landlines magazine.
- [43:40]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, very cool. Well, and then, not to go through your whole bibliography, but there was another one book that you wrote that I think ties really nicely with our conversation today about zoning is a book called this Land, which talked about the conflict between sprawl and smart growth. Can you tell those a little about that book? And maybe for folks that aren't familiar what kind of the smart growth movement is?
- [44:03]
Anthony Flint
Yeah, this goes back to about 2005, and I wanted to look at the sort of then emerging, arguably movement for smart growth, new Urbanism and green building and how that contrasts with this phenomenon of suburban sprawl that we talked about. Sprawl was really going. I mean, it was really the dominant form of development pattern in this country. And even 20 years ago, there were concerns about the environmental effects and also the effects of community, maybe a little bit of isolation that ended up happening in these sort of far flung subdivisions in the exurbs in places like Florida and Texas. And contrasting that with what even then was more market demand for living a different way that was more gratifying where you could walk to school, where your kids could walk to school, where you could walk to a library or go down to a cafe and maybe use transit instead of being in your car all the time. So that was this land. And it was looking at the beginning
- [45:42]
Ben Kittleson
of
- [45:44]
Anthony Flint
these movements, which of course carry through to today. You can go to a place like Smart Growth America. Some of the environmental groups like the Sierra Club and others got on board. The Congress for the New Urbanism is a big force, and they really had it right in terms of what we were talking about earlier, going back to the future and pointing out how the, you know, the best neighborhoods that we love so much are illegal to build today. So that was New Urbanism, and I thought that was worth a look.
- [46:24]
Ben Kittleson
Yeah, yeah, very cool. Well, and like any good, you know, planning nerd, you've also got a book on Jane Jacobs and Robert Moses. So we'll have to. We don't have to go through every book you've written, but we can link to those in our show notes, and folks should go check those out.
- [46:39]
Anthony Flint
Yeah, great. Yes. No, the Jane Jacobs book was. And that really continues to this day. We're still hoping that we can make a movie out of that because I think it's a great story. It's a real David and Goliath story, but at the end of the day, it's about urban planning. Yeah.
- [47:00]
Ben Kittleson
Love it. All right, what's next? What are you working on that our listeners should look out for?
- [47:05]
Anthony Flint
Well, at the Lincoln Institute, we have a number of things going. We are monitoring this zoning reform and figuring out different ways to promote the creation of affordable housing. One emphasis of late is encouraging local governments to use government owned land or public land and to sort of take stock of what cities and towns have in terms of land that maybe you could develop affordable housing on, and promoting things like Community Land Trust, where you get more sort of sustained or permanently affordable housing. And this is to deal with this crazy, very hot housing market across the country. And so we're trying to help local governments figure out what they could do to maybe use some of these underutilized parcels and really be more in the driver's seat in terms of ensuring affordability. And there are a number of ways to do that. And, and so we try to help with that. We are also very much engaged on the property tax. There's a bit of a revolt going on across the country on the property tax, and just at the moment that cities and towns need the revenue more than ever. Yeah.
- [48:47]
Ben Kittleson
So as the federal and state revenues, Ted, local government decline, this is also happening. Yeah.
- [48:53]
Anthony Flint
And so, you know, like, it's, it's staggering that, you know, like, I'm not sure people understand, you know, like how they, how they're supposed to fund schools and police and fire, but the, the property tax can, you know, be tweaked and, you know, you can have property tax relief and other approaches to address these concerns. But at the end of the day, you know, it is, as a book by Joan Youngman here at the Lincoln Institute calls it, a good tax. I mean, it's a fundamentally democratic tax that, that can function well. And then finally. Well, we're doing a lot of other things, but we are assisting local governments and regions with data centers, which of course, has become this huge land use story. And there are things you can do in terms of community benefits and, and other approaches to try to work with this rather than, you know, an outright ban, which I think, you know, a lot of people kind of react to this, these huge data centers that use so much water and power. But we're trying to help local governments kind of manage that as well.
- [50:33]
Ben Kittleson
Very cool. Awesome. So we'll. Yeah, we'll link to the Lincoln Institute website so folks can check that out and Then I've got the always the hardest question for our guests as our as our last one here. If you could be the God love DJ and pick the exit music for this episode, what song would you pick?
- [50:49]
Anthony Flint
Well, going back to zoning and the land use and the Euclid decision, I'm going to say Little Pink Houses by John Mellencamp.
- [51:00]
Ben Kittleson
Perfect. That's a great pick. Awesome. Well, that ends our episode for today. Anthony, thank you so much for coming on and talking with me. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your expertise.
- [51:09]
Anthony Flint
Great conversation. Thank you. Yeah.
- [51:12]
Ben Kittleson
For our listeners, govlove is brought to you by engaging local government leaders. And the best way to support Gov luv is to become an ELGL member. You can reach us online@elgl.org govlove or at our page on LinkedIn. With that, thank you for listening. This has been GovLove, a podcast. Stay running through his front child you
- [51:30]
Anthony Flint
know he thinks he got it so
- [51:32]
Ben Kittleson
good and there's a woman in the kitchen clean up evening sl and he looks at us says hey darling, I can remember when you could star flower but ain't that America? You and me ain't that America something to see baby, ain't that America home on the free yeah, little pink houses. Well, as a young man in a
- [52:23]
Anthony Flint
t shirt list to rock and roll.