#732 Developing Talent and Reflections Before Retirement with Scott Neal, Edina, MN

Summary

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GovLove Podcast #732: Developing Talent and Reflections Before Retirement with Scott Neal, Edina, MN

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Lauren Palmer sits down with Scott Neal, longtime City Manager of Edina, Minnesota, during the Minnesota City County Management Association (MCMA) Annual Conference. With an impressive 38-year career spanning multiple cities in Tennessee, Iowa, and Minnesota, Neal shares his reflections on talent development, leadership, and key changes in the local government profession as he prepares for his upcoming retirement. The conversation is both insightful and personal, featuring stories of mentorship, lessons learned, and hopes for the future of local government.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lightning Round & Personal Background

• Scott’s First Job (01:18–02:34)
  • Neal’s initial experience as a waiter/busboy taught him foundational skills in teamwork and customer service.
    • “It was a great place to learn kind of the basics of operating with other humans… in a team or pleasing a customer.” (B, 02:17)
• Favorite City Visited (02:56–03:22)
  • Barcelona holds a special place due to travel memories with his son, love for soccer, and witnessing a game with Lionel Messi.
• Minnesota Pride (04:06–04:59)
  • Neal humorously boasts about Minnesota's frigid winters and the ‘inner toughness’ they foster.

Career Path and Philosophy

• Origins in City Management (05:27–08:35)
  • Neal describes a college epiphany discovering the city manager role—an operations and merit-based position with political dimensions, but not requiring electioneering.
    • “It was a job in operations… with politics… and you didn’t have to run for election for anything. That combination was really appealing to me.” (B, 05:45)
  • His early stops included Norris, TN; Mount Pleasant, IA (working for future US Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack); Northfield, MN; Eden Prairie, MN; and finally Edina, MN since 2010.

Navigating Digital Accessibility (ADA Compliance)

• Challenges and Community Feedback (09:08–11:01)
  • Digital accessibility compliance has been complex and met with resident frustration due to less intuitive public access to documents. Neal emphasizes the importance of education and clear communication with both the public and the council.
    • “It was rather simple for people to navigate documents before this change. It's more difficult now ... We just need to spend more time talking about that.” (B, 10:21)

Value of Professional Peer Networks

• MCMA During COVID (11:23–12:39)
  • Neal led MCMA as president during the pandemic, navigating remote interactions and organizational complexity.
    • “I just… surviving it. And understanding that life goes on. We're now back to kind of a stage of normalcy.” (B, 12:17)

Developing Talent: The City Management Fellowship

• Story of Influence (14:05–15:42)
  • Palmer recounts Neal’s welcoming nature and widespread recognition for mentorship within Minnesota’s local government community.
  • Neal felt raising awareness wasn't enough; he created a fellowship to actively cultivate the next generation, especially increasing gender balance in city management.
    • “We need to do more than just awareness. We need to produce people.” (B, 15:53)
    • The program focuses on rotating fellows through significant responsibilities, council facetime, and mentorship.
    • Alumni support each other and Neal, creating a self-sustaining network.

Organizational Structure & Leadership Clarity

• Assistant/Deputy City Manager Role (18:05–20:29)
  • Neal stresses the importance of eliminating leadership ambiguity and empowering deputies with clear authority during absences.
    • “Leadership ambiguity is a problem… It’s helpful to have the leader say who the leader is.” (B, 18:46)

Preparing for Retirement

• Early Announcement and Transition Strategy (20:38–22:39)
  • Neal announced his retirement more than a year in advance to provide a smooth transition and help the city maintain its legacy of stability.
• Intentional Succession Planning (22:39–23:40)
  • He is emphasizing more staff and council input on multi-year decisions, stepping back from personal influence on long-term projects as his tenure winds down.

Reflections on Change in Local Government

• Technological & Cultural Shifts (24:01–25:27)
  • Neal has witnessed the adoption of computers, the evolution of public communication from "here's what we're doing" to "what do you think?", and the complexification brought by technology.
• On Mistakes and Ethics (27:02–31:23)
  • He shares a deeply personal lesson: being publicly censured by ICMA for criticizing a council member out of anger—a pivotal experience that shaped his ethical approach and sense of accountability.
    • “That was an error. That was a big error...I didn't take that opportunity to sit down with a colleague or family member and say, I think I want to say this in the paper. What do you think?” (B, 28:58–29:14)
    • ICMA censure was public and painful, but Neal used it to rededicate himself to the profession.

Legacy and Pride

• Most Proud Achievement (32:10–33:28)
  • Rather than physical projects, Neal is most proud of developing the City Management Fellows program and producing leaders who have gone on to serve across Minnesota and beyond.
    • “My, the thing I'm most proud about is the success of our City Management Fellows… That'll go on for a long time.” (B, 32:10)

Selecting & Supporting Fellows

• Key Criteria for Fellows (33:28–34:24)
  • Neal’s first interview question: “Do you want to be a city manager someday?” He looks for “A students” with professional ambition and commitment.
  • He observes a new trend: greater uncertainty among candidates about their career direction than in past cohorts.

Looking Ahead: The Future of the Profession

• AI and Modern Skills (35:30–36:45)

  • Upcoming leaders will need to master (or be comfortable recruiting those who master) AI and similar transformational technologies, akin to the integration of GIS thirty years ago.
    • “People that are going to be in this line of work in the future are going to have to have a mastery of that.” (B, 35:37)

• Interpersonal Relationships Still Reign (36:53–37:59)

  • Despite technology, Neal insists that building rapport with elected officials and respecting their mandate remains a central skill for city managers.
    • “Nobody voted for me in the last election. Right. Know that elections matter… you have to be able to defer and respect the elected officials who did stand for election and won and implement what their vision…” (B, 37:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Talent Development
  “We need to do more than just awareness. We need to produce people.” — Scott Neal [15:53]

• On Leadership Ambiguity
  “Leadership ambiguity is a problem, and I think for people to understand who the leader is, it's helpful to have the leader say who the leader is.” — Scott Neal [18:46]

• On Learning from Mistakes
  “I've always thought about that as a volume-based approach to making decisions… You can't make a thousand decisions in a day without making 100 that maybe aren’t the greatest.” — Scott Neal [27:13]

• On Overcoming Public Censure
  “It was really one of my motivations to think about how I could give back to my profession because I kind of… took a nick out of it when I didn’t do that right.” — Scott Neal [31:12]

• On Professional Legacy
  “The thing that I'm most proud about is the success of our City Management Fellows… That'll go on for a long time.” — Scott Neal [32:10]

• Advice for Developing Elected Relationships “Be respectful. Understand that nobody voted for me in the last election. Right. Know that elections matter...” — Scott Neal [37:20]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Lightning Round & Background: 01:18–04:59
• Career Overview: 05:27–08:35
• ADA Digital Accessibility Challenges: 09:08–11:01
• MCMA & Professional Association Value: 11:23–12:39
• Talent Development & Fellowship Program: 14:05–18:05
• Leadership & Organization Structure: 18:05–20:29
• Retirement Announcement & Succession: 20:38–23:40
• Reflections on Change: 24:01–26:45
• Mistakes, Ethics & Professional Recovery: 27:02–31:23
• What Makes Him Proud: 32:10–33:28
• Selecting Next-Gen Talent: 33:28–34:24
• Future Local Government Trends (AI, Skills): 35:30–36:45
• Advice for Elected Official Relationships: 36:53–37:59
• Parting Thoughts & What’s Next: 38:13–39:01

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Closing & Song Selection

• Exit Song: “Bohemian Like You” by The Dandy Warhols [39:15]
  • “When I did this before, I indicated the Dandy Warhol's Bohemian Like You. And that's what it would be today. Not gonna change it.” — Scott Neal [39:15]

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Summary Takeaways

• Scott Neal’s career exemplifies the power of mentorship, clear leadership structures, and adapting to change while remaining people-centered.
• His management fellowship has become a blueprint for developing local government talent and building resilient professional networks.
• Neal’s humility in sharing a public mistake and his determination to give back to the profession illustrate the human side of leadership.
• As retirement approaches, Neal is focused on transition planning and excited about future opportunities—possibly in consulting—while leaving behind a lasting legacy in the form of people he mentored.

This episode is highly recommended for anyone interested in leadership, mentoring, and the evolving challenges facing local government.

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Transcript

[A]

Coming to you from the Minnesota City County Management Association Annual Conference in Brainerd, Minnesota. This is govlove, a podcast about local government. I'm Lauren Palmer with Everstrive Solutions and I'm your host for today's episode. GovLove is produced by ELGL, the Engaging Local Government Leaders Network. You can support GovLove by becoming a member of ELGL. I encourage you to visit ELGL.org today to learn more and get signed up today. I'm Welcoming back to GovLove, Scott Neal. He's been a GovLove podcast guest before. Scott is the City Manager of Edina, Minnesota and has had a legendary career spanning numerous cities in Tennessee, Iowa and Minnesota. He has a strong reputation for developing talent and many of his former interns and assistants have gone on to chief administrative roles in other communities. Scott was last on the podcast in 2022 and we're welcoming him back since he recently announced his upcoming retirement. So I'm eager to hear his insights as he reflects on his career and looks forward to the next chapter. So, Scott, welcome back to govlove.

[B]

Thank you, Lauren. Happy to be here.

[A]

That's great. I'm thrilled that you could give me a little bit of your time during the conference. I know you are like a fan favorite from your before. So glad to have you back and get to catch up with you. Even though you've been a guest on Guvla before, we are still going to do a lightning round with you for any new listeners to get to know you a little bit better. So my first question, what was your very first, like W2 wages paying job and what did it teach you?

[B]

My very first job was that I got paid for and had a W2 for was as a waiter busboy in a kind of a fancy hotel. Fancy for Iowa standards anyway. And it was.

[A]

Thank you for that clarifier.

[B]

I made $1.86 an hour because I was a tipped employee at that point and my tips were supposed to make up for the difference, I guess. I don't know.

[A]

How'd you do? Did you make a tip?

[B]

That was great. Yeah. And it was a great place to. It was a great place to learn kind of the basics of, of operating with other humans. Right. In a team or pleasing a customer. And the money aspect of it that came with that, it was pretty. It was a quick learn and I really enjoyed that.

[A]

Yeah, that's wonderful. I never had that experience of working in like the hospitality service profession, but I've talked to a lot of people who Have. And I feel like that's a great training ground. Anything you want to do in life, I agree. That's a great example. All right, next lightning round question. What's the best city you have ever visited but have not worked in?

[B]

Barcelona.

[A]

All right, tell us more. Why did you pick Barcelona?

[B]

A few years ago, I met. When my oldest son was turning 40, he wanted to meet up in Barcelona, and so he lives in Austria, and so he went to Barcelona, I went to Barcelona. We spent kind of a four day long weekend, saw a Barcelona game with Lionel Messi playing, and it was a wonderful opportunity. Beautiful city.

[A]

Oh, wonderful. So there was a lot that came out of what you just shared there. That's beautiful that your son wanted to share his birthday with you. You all must have a nice relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're soccer football fans.

[B]

Yes, Big fans.

[A]

So are you gonna be enjoying the World cup when it's in North America this year, or is that not your cup of tea?

[B]

I think so. We won't be following the team because it's in the middle of a kind of a family vacation time.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So we're doing that instead. But, yeah, we'll be watching a lot of. We'll be watching a lot of soccer this summer.

[A]

All right, very good. One last lightning round question for you. What is your favorite thing about Minnesota that you brag about to someone who's living out of state?

[B]

The frigid cold weather snaps that we have here. I think it reflects the kind of inner toughness that one has to have to live in Minnesota in this climate. And we like to brag about it secretly, not like it a little bit. But yeah, I like to share that part. And it feels good when it's over, Right?

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting. I just survived my first Minnesota winter, and I gotta tell you, truthfully, I'm kind of sad about it. I kind of liked winter. I'm kind of gloomy that the snow has melted, but people keep telling me summer's going to be wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. You had an easy one this year, too, but I had an easy one. There's two weeks in January every year where it's, you know, it's the 30 below timeframe. And so we like to complain about it, but we like to brag about it, too.

[A]

Yeah. And I travel a fair amount for my work, so I had the opportunity to go to some southern destinations in January.

[B]

That's important.

[A]

My husband did not. So he had a little different Minnesota winch winter experience than I did. But. Okay, I. I feel the same way. Yeah. Minnesota winters. Okay, well, Scott, let's get into it. You have had a heck of a career. Start by just giving us a brief overview of your career path and how you got into your role in a Dyna.

[B]

Wow. My career path started a long time ago when I had an epiphany about what a city manager did. And was I. I learned this in my kind of my second year at Iowa State University. I was in an urban policy class and it was the first time I'd ever heard that term and the first discussion I ever had about what it was. Right. And it was a job in the kind of in operations and it was merit based and had politics associated with it and you got paid on top of that and you didn't have to run for election for anything. And that combination was really appealing to me. And I just as soon as I comprehended that that was a job that I could do someday, that's what I wanted to do. So I changed my entire kind of academic prep and took urban everything. Urban farming, urban design, urban sociology, urban everything. Right. And then I got a job working in married student housing at Iowa State, which in many ways was like a little city with adults and people and kids and schools and parks and public safety. And I could. I used that. I leveraged that into my first job as a city manager that I started on June 1, 1988 in Norris, Tennessee. And that was where I got my

[A]

start, June 1, 1988. You remember that date?

[B]

I do.

[A]

Okay, so you were in Tennessee for a minute and then where did the path take you?

[B]

I was in Tennessee for a minute for a little closer to two years. And then I got a job as the first city administrator, brand new position in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. I'm from Iowa, so it was in, in some ways kind of coming home. I worked for a young mayor at the time named Tom Vilsack. Tom went on, I think, as you know, to be the governor in Iowa for a couple of terms and the longest serving Secretary of Agriculture, both for Obama and Biden. So I worked for Tom for three years and then he went on up from there. I had a new mayor come in. We worked together very nicely for a few years, but I really aspired to be in the Twin Cities. And I had the opportunity to go for a job in Northfield in 1996 and I got it. And so I picked up my family and we all moved to Northfield, Minnesota. And that was in 96. And we really used that as kind of our family. That's our family hometown. My kids all think of themselves as North Fielders. That's where their friends are from and that's where they all graduated from high school. But near the end of that time when they were in high school, I had the opportunity to move to another job and that was Neen Prairie and that was a big move for me. And I worked in Eden Prairie for eight years and then had the opportunity to go to Edina. And I've been in Edina since 2010. So all total, it's about 38 years. A little over 38 years.

[A]

It's incredible. Congratulations.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Yeah. And we're going to talk more about what you've been doing in those 38 years. So, as you know, I'm doing a series of podcast episodes this week on location at the MCMA conference and with each guest, I'm trying to highlight how one or two national level issues are playing out here in Minnesota. So I'd like to hear about your experience with ADA Digital Accessibility compliance. That's kind of a hot button issue that a lot of communities are dealing with.

[B]

How do I deal? One of the things that was really difficult for me to understand around ADA Digital compliance was that in some way, in some ways it was a step backwards for accessibility for residents and for our councils to get the documents, the documents they need to read to make decisions that we asked them to make around the dais. And I struggled with understanding that. Whether that. Was I not understanding it right? Was I just wrong about it? The idea that we are gonna have an extra year now to fully comply with it, I'm happy about that. But it still is going to take considerable effort to make that clear to the people I work for, to my council and to our residents about why we're doing it. And it's not just a thing that city staff thought up to make lives more difficult. Right. We're doing our best to comply with new law and we're going to do it ultimately. But it's just taken a long time to figure it out, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Say more about that. What has been difficult about it and what advice do you have for maybe colleagues in other communities who are dealing with the same thing?

[B]

Like I said, what feels more difficult about it is that it was rather simple for people in the public to navigate how to get at documents in our council packets before this change. It's more difficult now. Right. Because we are having to make some judgments about what's what, what complies and what doesn't. How do we put that In a way that. That we can. We can share with the public. And we're getting a lot of feedback from. From the public that it's just. They don't like it. And. And that part of it I hadn't anticipated because they can still get to what they need. It's just a different path. And maybe it's. We just need to spend more time talking about that.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get back to talking about the conference. We're kind of celebrating the work of MCMA and professional associations, former MCMA president. So I'd love to hear from you why you prioritized peer network involvement in your career and how it's influenced your career.

[B]

I happened to be the president in, like, I think it was 2020 or 2021. It was a Covid year. Right. So we didn't have a physical time that we could get together. Most of what we were doing as a board, we were doing remotely. It just was. It's not. It wasn't nearly as fun as conferences were before or after when we have just more opportunity to hang out and to interact in a physical way. So I didn't. I missed that. I missed that opportunity. But it was also a time where it was pretty complicated in our world. And so I had the opportunity to kind of lead this organization for a year while we were grappling with that.

[A]

Yeah, you sound like the perfect person at the perfect time. Just knowing what I know of your leadership in the state, is there anything that you are particularly proud of from your year of service?

[B]

Oh, boy. I just surviving it. Right. And understanding that things that life goes on. In that case, we all weren't sure how life was going to go on. But life goes on. We're back to kind of a stage of normalcy, I think maybe five years later and than we were five years before. Much, much more similar now.

[A]

Great. Okay, bear with me. Before I ask you my next question, I'm going to preface it with two Scott Neal stories.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Just listeners. I did not tell him I was going to do this. So my first Scott Neal story is I'm new to Minnesota. I am a trailing spouse. I followed my city manager husband up here when he got the job in Bloomington, Minnesota. So last year was a weird time in my life at home, like pulling the nuclear option on life and totally starting over and moving to a different state. So in the middle of that experience when things were kind of hard and discombobulated at home for us, I remember coming home and finding on the Top of my husband's dresser, a little handwritten note by somebody named Scott Neal congratulating my husband for getting this job, welcoming him to Minnesota, and inviting him to meet and visit when he got to town. And I wasn't a note to me, but I picked it up and read it. And I remember, like, instantly feeling like a weight lifted, so relieved, like, it's going to be okay. There are going to be nice people in Minnesota. This transition is going to be fine. So I just want to tell you that you were. You were maybe the very first person in Minnesota to reach out and welcome my husband and by extension, me.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And that meant a lot to us.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

So that's story number one. Story number two is I'm new to town, so I've been trying to meet a lot of folks. I've been having coffee and lunch with anybody who will talk to me. And when I sit down and have coffee with a new friend in Minnesota, I always ask, who else do I need to meet? Who should I be talking to? And I've asked a lot of people, who should I have on the GovLA podcast at the conference? And Scott, I'm not kidding you. To a person. Every single person that I have asked that question of has said, Scott Neal.

[B]

Aww.

[A]

Other names, lots of other names have surfaced. There's lots of wonderful people in the state. I'm talking to several of them this week on the podcast. But I'm. Anyway, I'm telling both of those stories to just preface, you are very highly regarded by your peers in the state. And people have said, you've got to talk to Neil Scott, because he's great. And you're kind of like patient zero. You're connected to all these other people because you have such a great track record of developing talent. And your interns, you know, grow up and go and get other jobs. So there's kind of this, like, Scott Neil mafia around of, you know, lots of paths connect back to you. So thank you for letting me ramble on about that. I just. For our listeners, I just want to paint that picture of, like, you have this deep gift of developing talent. So I want to hear you just tell us about that, like, what makes the management internship program in your community so successful.

[B]

Wow. Thank you for those kind words. I hope I can live up to them. We established. I think you're talking about our fellowship program, right? Okay. And we established this fellowship program in 20. I'm thinking 2011, I think. And the reason I established it is because I wanted to There was a lot of discussion at that time about developing talent in the profession at professional conferences and so on. And there was a lot of discussion around developing talent. Who's going to be the next generation of city managers? Why aren't there more women in this field, those kinds of things. And I went to the conference, the ICMA conference that year, and I remember very distinctly one of the leaders of ICMA gave this really, I thought, inspiring speech about we need to recognize we have a problem, we need a better gender balance, et cetera, et cetera. And at the end of her discussion, I went up to her and talked to her like, what are you doing about this? Like, what are you doing about this? And she said, I'm raising awareness. And I remember coming away from that thinking, I think we're pretty aware we need to do more than just awareness. We need to produce people. And that was kind of what drove me to start this program and to look for great candidates and to help develop them. Not just help develop them, but help them get into this field, be their reference, be their mentor, give them good advice, hopefully put them in situations in our organization where they have to meet people, learn things, talk about it, facetime with the council, things like that. To produce a person who at the end of 12 months or now it's 24 months, is capable of sitting down in an interview and impressing a city council to hire he or she. And that's what we've done. And we've got great alumni. They talk to each other, they. They help each other solve problems. They give me good advice when I ask for it. So that's just a little bit of the background before it and where it came from.

[A]

I love that you said they give you good advice too, that it's a mutually beneficial relationship. Talk a little bit about the conference. I just attended a session with a panel that you were on. The session was about the manager deputy assistant dynamic, and I'm going to put you on the spot. I thought, even compared to some of the other panelists, you really had a lot of interesting things to say about how important it is to you to make sure that that deputy role is very clearly seen as a second in command in your organization and how that's kind of influenced your leadership and org structure. I'd love for you to share a little bit about that for our govlove audience.

[B]

Leadership ambiguity is a problem, and I think for people to understand who the leader is, it's helpful to have the leader say who the leader is. Right. And so If I'm going to be. If I'm going to be gone, if I'm going to be absent, if I'm going to be working on something else, I want it to be clear who's leading the effort. And I think in our case, I've had the opportunity to work with three really exceptional assistant city managers in Edina. And in all cases, they were great at what they did, but there was always a little bit of ambiguity about are they really in charge when Scott's gone? And that's just one. That's when I'm gone. That's not that much. But that also leads then to the discussion about, well, what role does that person have? Does the assistant city manager get to tell the police chief what to do? And in our situation, they do. They can, and they don't have to do that very often. But if there's some organizational thing that's happening, whether it's staffing or union contracts or budget with any department, the assistant city manager, deputy city manager now, in our community is one that has the authority to make decisions, and that is. And everybody knows it in our leadership team. And I think most people know it below the leadership team. So the division, what we would call division managers, I think they know it, too. But it's important that I back that up by saying it out loud and making it clear that that's what's happening.

[A]

Yeah. Leadership ambiguity. That's a term I haven't heard, but

[B]

I'm going to take away in my brain.

[A]

Yeah, you should write a book about it. You're going to have some time on your hands. We're going to talk about that. So, yes, you've recently announced your retirement.

[B]

Your retirement is effective next year, January 8, 2027.

[A]

January 8. So I would love to hear your analysis of why you announced early and what you're doing with this time between now and January.

[B]

Okay. I announced early because I wanted to provide as much Runway as I could to my council and to the organization just to prepare. They're going to find a fine city manager to replace me when I'm gone. That person's going to come in and probably make some changes of stuff that I changed when I took the chair. But it's one that I just felt like they needed a little bit longer time frame to come to a decision. Edina has some unique qualities to it, and you got to get the right person. It's been a remarkably stable environment as a city. They had their first city manager in 1955, and I'm only the fourth one. So people come here, they stay for a long time. Generally. I don't know if that's going to change in the future. It might, but they have a long track record of being a very stable place to work. So I wanted them to have as much time as they could have reasonably to make that important decision.

[A]

Is the plan that they will do the hiring process and identify your replacement before you leave and there's some overlap?

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Don't know yet.

[B]

That's what we're, that's what we're thinking. Like they might there. There's sort of angling for a decision in maybe August, September. Okay. And then it's not uncommon in this line of work to have to give a 60 or 90 day notice. I have to, in my contract I have to give a 90 day notice if I'm going to leave. So I wanted the opportunity, if they need it, to have some crossover and we'll plan for that as it comes. But it's there if we want to do it that way.

[A]

Other than giving your governing body that time to kind of figure it out. Is there. Let me think how I want to say this. Has making your announcement changed anything about the way that you are leading and guiding the organization? Is there anything that you're doing intentional with this time to help make that a smooth transition?

[B]

For sure. As we are approaching sort of multi level or not multi, but multi year events like a bond issue or a capital improvement budget or something like that that has a long time frame beyond where I'm going to be there. I want to make sure that I'm spending more time actually with my assistant and with counsel and with staff, taking their input, making sure they understand it. My opinion on maybe the details of that means less, I think given that I'm not going to have to deal with the accountability or the consequences of our decision. So I want to make sure there's more fingerprints on that kind of decision than what there would be today perhaps.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for sharing that. Well, as you have a toe or two out the door, I would love to hear you just reflect on this. Incredible. What did you say, 37, 38 years, something like that? Career. What are some of the notable changes in local government over time, good and bad? I'd love to hear what you reflect on.

[B]

Yeah, I think technology is obviously one of the things that has changed a lot. I, in my job in Norris, Tennessee, I was there for them to have their first personal computer walk in the door and figure out where It. Whose desk it's going to sit on and can we all share. Share it together or something? Some things like that. Right. I've lived through that technological revolution in city government. I have seen the way that we communicate with the public is very different today than it was when I started in my career. How often what we say, how we say it, all of that is, I think, really quite different than we used to do in 30 years ago.

[A]

Tell me more about that. What is different other than just the technology, the mechanisms we use?

[B]

I would say 30 years ago, it was much more common for the city to tell residents, here's what we're doing this year. Now it's more of, hey, here's what we're thinking about doing this year. What do you think of it? Do you have any other idea? We're a little soft. We're much softer in our approach, and that has a lot of good and less good qualities to it, I think. But certainly it's different than when preparing a plan and implementing the plan and then telling the people what the plan was. Sure, yeah.

[A]

Is there anything that you reflect on over your career where you think, man, it really used to be better. I missed the good old days of fill in the blank.

[B]

The good old days. Gosh, that's a good question. I don't. I don't know that I do.

[A]

Maybe that's healthy. Maybe that says something positive about the profession.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah. I can't really point. I can't point to a thing that I would. Just a specific thing.

[A]

It's just been up and up. Right. Every year has been better than the last.

[B]

That's not true. But pointing at something and talking about how different it is, I think policing is certainly one of the bigger differences. One of the things that I have seen. We've seen our use of drones in the police department body cameras is a big difference, I think. Fundamental difference in how we view police officers and the public and the courts. And did it happen if it's not on video, did it really happen in real life? I mean, we're. I kind of knew that's the direction that was going in. I don't think that's great. But that is what we're. That's kind of what we have to do these days, too.

[A]

Yeah. Well, now that your retirement date is set, theoretically, the stakes are a little lower for you than maybe some of my other podcast guests.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah.

[A]

Is there a mistake you're willing to share from your career that was a particularly good learning experience for you?

[B]

Yeah. A Mistake, huh? There's hun. There's hundreds of them. Right.

[A]

It's very humble of you.

[B]

No, it's really true. I mean, I have worked on. My approach to mistakes really is that I'm going to make a thousand decisions tomorrow and some of them are going to be wrong. I'm going to misjudge something, I'm going to misjudge someone's intent, I'm going to read the numbers wrong. That's going to happen. But you can't make a thousand decisions in a day without making 100 that maybe aren't the greatest decisions. So I've always thought about that as a volume based approach to making decisions. Gosh, I wish I could. I wish I could think of a one that I really want back. Let me think, let me think about it. We'll do it on the next podcast. That's not really an option here, is it?

[A]

You know, I'll riff a little bit just to give you a moment, see if anything comes to mind. But that I actually find this refreshing if, if you are kind of struggling to think of like, what was that big whammy that I just wish I could do over. I think that's good for the rest of us to hear that like whatever is nagging at you that you feel like you screwed up yesterday or last week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not even going to remember it.

[B]

Yeah, I think one, one that comes to mind. I do have one that comes to mind and it's kind of a personal slash business mistake. And that is that I, at one stage in my career when I was working in Northfield, I wrote, I wrote, I think it was a letter to the editor or I was in an interview or something, but I was publicly critical of one of my council members. Worst. You know, not, not a great person or a great council member for sure. But I. That was an error. That was a, that was a big error.

[A]

Was that just a rookie mistake or were you intentionally doing that with some motivation?

[B]

Yeah, I was intentionally doing it because I was mad. I was angry about something. I didn't have an internal editor that was helpful to me at the time. I was my own communications manager, which is both good and not good. Nobody gave me. I didn't take that opportunity to sit down with a colleague or a friend or a family member and say, I think I want to say this in the paper. What do you think everyone would have said? No dice, don't do that. And I've given that advice to plenty of people. But I didn't take It. At that time. And it was painful.

[A]

Yeah. So many good lessons there. Don't act out of anger. Use your network to get a second opinion. The value of a communications professional, if your community has the resources to have one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But thank you for sharing. It didn't ruin your career. You went on to many other wonderful things.

[B]

Yeah, it was good. It was. It was. It was a good learning experience in the end.

[A]

How did. How did that play out? Like you say, it was a learning experience. Was there some fallout from that? You know, did you have a good mayor who gave you a pat on the shoulder and said no?

[B]

There was fallout. I was publicly. I was publicly censored by icma.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, like, super pain.

[B]

No, I'm telling you. Right. Yeah, it was super painful. All right. Because in the public censure process, the ICMA sends a. Like a. Like a press release or an article. They public, and they publish an article in the local newspaper that says, scott Neal has this scarlet letter now. He violated this, shouldn't have done it, and so on and so on. So that, especially in, you know, in the modern era, that is always attached to me. And it comes up. It comes up periodically, really, because it's characterized in. It's characterized in the framework as an ethics violation.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah. And, gosh, I don't want that. But it's tagged on me. And it was really one of my motivations to think about how I, you know, how I could give back in. How I could give back to my profession because I kind of. I took a nick out of it when I didn't. When I didn't do that. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for just sharing. That's such a fascinating story. And because you are so respected by your colleagues, certainly here in Minnesota and I'm sure nationally as well, like, kudos to you for overcoming that. You know, maybe a lesser person would have left the profession and found something else to do. Like, I really admire that you learned

[B]

from that and grew and it was a growing experience.

[A]

I know, but look at all. Look at all the great things you've done for the communities you've served in the profession since, like, we can all learn and come back from our mistakes.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's a good lesson. Okay, well, let's pivot from that. What is a particularly proud accomplishment as you reflect on your years of service?

[B]

You know, I think lots of people in my profession would talk about a big economic development deal they did, or the new pool that they built or any of that. And that's all good and those are all important. I've got those too. But my, the thing that I'm most proud about is the success of our, of our City Management Fellows in the program of producing, helping to produce people that are now in this field and serving communities all over. All over the Twin Cities, but even outside of our state. Yeah, yeah. I feel I, I have a sense of pride for that. And that'll go on for a long time.

[A]

Right, right. Your legacy will live far beyond your career because it's like these fellows that you've raised, they're going to raise fellows. They're going to raise fellows. Right. You've left a legacy.

[B]

Yeah. And we've had, you know, part of, part of our success in that regard is that we hire, we hire a students, you know, so a students become a candidates when, when they get out into the field. And that has been. That's kind of one of the secrets. I think it's one of the secrets to how this has worked out as well as it has is that we get the right people and they. 90% of the work is done.

[A]

That's interesting. Do you have kind of a formula and a criteria of what you are looking for in that fellow? Good grades, it sounds like as a startup.

[B]

You know what the first question when we interview, the first question I like to ask candidates who are we're considering for the fellowship is do you want to be a city manager someday? And it's shocking how many of them don't. Right. They sign up for this interview and they're not sure if they want to be. I'm looking for somebody who's sure who wants that training. And if they're not sure, well, then they're telling me they're sure. And then we kind of work through it and then they become sure later on. But that's number one question. Second question is really, why. Why are you interested in this? Is it just a job or is it a profession or do you want to live in the Twin Cities? That's another set of questions. And that's been, that's really been fascinating to see how those answers have changed over time.

[A]

What's changed? I'm curious about that.

[B]

I think one thing that has changed has been that people aren't. Aren't. Some of the candidates aren't as sure if they want to do it or not. They want to learn more. They want to learn more about city managers and what they do. And maybe they'll be interested and Maybe they won't. I think when we first started the fellowship, and even in Eden Prairie, where I had some interns as well, people were more sure about wanting to be in the profession. And they, they didn't. They. They were happy to tell me why, but they weren't. There wasn't any ambiguity about that.

[A]

So you've said a couple things in our conversation. I mean, you talked about a moment in time when you kind of felt this conviction to help train the new generation and addressed the gender imbalance, you know, and you're talking about kind of this trend you've seen, of the change in the commitment to knowing they want that career. As you look forward, are there things that you worry about for the future of local government? Like what wisdom do you hope to impart on the next generation of managers?

[B]

I think mastering. I mean, we've seen. We just saw a couple. Well, we've had a couple of sessions in this conference about AI and the place it's going to have in our. In our lives, our work lives and our home lives and our professional lives. I think people that are going to be in this line of work in the future are going to have to have a mastery of that. They may not have to do it, but they're going to have to be able to hire and work with people that are masters in this field. They just really are.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like AI is like, you know, early in my career, it was like GIS was kind of just becoming a thing and I had a mentor manager who was like, Lauren, you don't have to know how to, you know, create layers in gis, but you got to understand that resource. It's changing the way we do our work. And now it's like totally embedded and taken for granted in everything we do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this feels similar.

[B]

Like, that's a great analogy because I think we have. It did start out as something that just a few people on my staff knew how to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was a secret kind of skill set. But now a lot of people know how to do it and sometimes council members know how to do it, too. So I hope we can see a similar sort of adaptation to AI in our workplace, too.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. Anything else you want to share about, you know, your forecast or predictions for the future of local government?

[B]

This is still a profession where people are talking to people and you still have to have or be able to develop a rapport with elected officials, understand what's important to them. I think that part of it is not going to change. And that's going to be, that's going to be important. As important going forward as it is today.

[A]

What are your pro tips for that? How do you develop a relationship when you have a new elected leader on your council?

[B]

Be respectful. Understand that nobody voted for me in the last election. Right. Know that elections matter. And so we, we may have a static situation. What everybody agreed on. We had a comprehensive plan that everybody agreed on. Then we had an election. Not everybody agrees on it anymore. And you gotta change your baby if that's, if that's the situation you're in. And we have to, you have to be able to do that. You just have to be able to defer and respect the elected officials who did stand for election and won and implement what their vision of their community is going to be.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. Well, Scott, thank you again for your time for your wisdom. I know you have a busy conference schedule. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience before we wrap up?

[B]

I've really had a wonderful career and I'm happy that I can see that. I'm happy that I can see the end of it. I'm looking forward to what comes next in my life and in my career. And I really appreciate the opportunity to do this with you today.

[A]

Yeah. Wonderful. Do you want to share what you're thinking about for what comes next or leave us in suspense?

[B]

I'm going to leave you in suspense a little bit. I am going to work. I'm not a golfer. I got to do something that stimulates me intellectually and so I am going to do that. And I got, there's some, there's some consulting opportunities there that I want to investigate and do after I am done being a city manager.

[A]

Okay, well, that's wonderful. I'm glad to know we have not seen the last of you. Well, thank you again so much for joining the Gov Love podcast. Our last question, if you could be the Gov Love dj, what song would you pick as our exit music for this episode?

[B]

When I did this before, I indicated the Dandy Warhol's bohemian like you. And that's what it would be today.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Not gonna change it.

[A]

You're just sticking with it. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. I love it. Can't wait to hear this song yet again. That ends our episode for today. Thank you so much to our guest, Scott Neal from Edina, Minnesota. Thank you for our listeners. You can reach [e-mail] govlove or on social media. Ovlove podcast this has been govlove, a podcast about local government.