Ken Yates (3:59)

Okay, so this is a highly controversial question, but first thing I would point out is do a word study of New Covenant. What you will find is it's amazingly rare in the New Testament. If I remember correctly, there's four uses. There's these two. And then in the Synoptics, you have, this is the blood of the New Covenant, right?

Bob Wilkin (4:24)

Yeah. Hebrews refers to New Covenant, Right?

Ken Yates (4:26)

Yeah. But it's extremely rare, first of all. But secondly, there's no verse that says, the New Covenant is currently operating. When he says, we're ministers of the New Covenant, you have to say, what does that genitive mean of the New Covenant? I think it means concerning the New Covenant or in relation to the New Covenant. In other words, what we minister in anticipation of the coming kingdom, when Israel will be the dominant nation and Jesus will be ruling from Jerusalem. And so we know the New Covenant is going to be inaugurated. Now, when the New Covenant is inaugurated, According to Jeremiah 31, he's going to write the law on their hearts. Right. And he says, and everyone will know the Lord from the least to the greatest. Of course, he's talking about in Israel. Right.

Bob Wilkin (5:13)

Well, he says in Jeremiah, this is for the Jews.

Ken Yates (5:16)

Right. So there's two ways that dispensationalists have handled this. And you know this. Right. One is there's two New Covenants. Now, how does that view work? Do you remember that?

Bob Wilkin (5:24)

Sure. One would be that that view would be that, yes, Jeremiah is talking about a new covenant that he's going to make with the nation of Israel. But there's also a new covenant for the church. They're not the same. They're different. They're both based upon the death of Christ. But the church is under a new covenant and Israel is going to be under the new covenant when he returns.

Ken Yates (5:45)

Okay, so that's one. And the other view is there's one new covenant and within that some people that it has not yet begun, but it was more or less inaugurated with the blood of Christ. But it won't actually begin until Jesus is established as King of Israel.

Narrator (6:05)

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Bob Wilkin (6:41)

There would be some who would say that the new covenant is for the nation of Israel, but the Church receives some of the blessings. Now they would say that we're not under the new Covenant, but we're beneficiaries of it. Yeah. Beneficiaries of it.

Ken Yates (6:57)

Yeah. And I would not see that because we're not Israel. We're not the chosen people. And the promises for Israel aren't for us. We need unique promises for us. And so I think when Paul says he's a minister of the New Covenant, he's saying, look, I realize God has not forgotten his people. What is Romans 9, 10, 11 all about? Right. There's a future for Israel in Romans 11:26, one day all Israel will be saved. Every single adult Jew will be a believer at the end of the tribulation. But not only that, all of the unbelieving children are going to be saved too. Because salvation in Romans 11:26 refers to deliverance from Gentile domination and from the army surrounding Jerusalem.

Bob Wilkin (7:41)

Right, right.

Ken Yates (7:42)

And so when Paul ministers in light of the New Covenant, he doesn't see the church as independent of Israel. Well, I maybe should say that differently. It is independent in one sense, but we are ultimately for the benefit of Israel. God says, I'm going to bless those who bless you to Abraham.

Bob Wilkin (8:01)

Would you feel comfortable or uncomfortable saying something like this? Again, I'm just talking off the top of my head. Okay, Christ's death and resurrection, making the new covenant, which is Jeremiah talking about for the nation of Israel, that is the basis for it. That's why the new covenant is coming. But when Paul, for example, in 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about we are ministers of a new covenant, he's not saying that the church is under that new covenant, but with the coming of Christ, which is the basis for the new covenant. Jeremiah 31, this way of living, this walking by the Spirit, it was made possible through the death of Christ as well. It's not the law. And so he's talking in those terms.

Ken Yates (8:48)

Yeah, it could be. And I've been ruing over me saying that the death of Christ and the blood of Christ initiated the new covenant. Some people would say that. I think probably that would be an inaccurate statement because that would then say the new covenant is currently operating. So probably initiate is wrong, anticipates would be right. But ultimately the new covenant won't come until the Messiah of Israel comes again. And so the new covenant won't even be operative during the 75 days between the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium. The new covenant will begin with the millennium.

Bob Wilkin (9:27)

So what would you say about a, like a grace person, for example, who would make the distinction, because I've heard this before, that there's a difference between the new covenant and a new covenant.

Ken Yates (9:38)

I've not heard that one. Give me that one.

Bob Wilkin (9:41)

Well, if I remember right, I don't have the Greek text in front of me, but when Paul says we are ministers of a new covenant, I don't think the article is there. Yeah, he's just saying we're ministers of a new agreement where we're not under the law anymore. In other words, he's not really talking about Jeremiah 31. I've heard it said this way. Okay, we're not talking about Jeremiah 31, but the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and we're ministers of a new covenant here.

Ken Yates (10:07)

Okay, that would be possible. But if he only uses the expression new covenant twice, and he uses it once in 1st Corinthians 11 and then once in 2nd Corinthians chapter 3, it would seem likely that they both would be talking about the same new covenant.

Bob Wilkin (10:25)

Right?

Ken Yates (10:25)

Of course, in First Corinthians 11, 26, it does have the definite article, I think, doesn't it, when he says that this is the new covenant in my blood.

Bob Wilkin (10:35)

Yeah, I'm just looking right now. I'm looking at 2 Corinthians 3:6. The article's not there. We are ministers of a New Covenant. The article's not there.

Ken Yates (10:44)

But in Greek, you don't have to have the definite article for something to be definite.

Bob Wilkin (10:49)

Right. My point, there would be. Could Paul just be he's just comparing the Old Covenant under the law with the New Covenant or a New Covenant under his Spirit. We don't live by the law because that's what he's talking about in 2 Corinthians 3. But this is something new. It's not the New Covenant. I'm just saying. I've heard that before.

Ken Yates (11:09)

Okay. And that's a possibility. I suppose it would be kind of a form of saying there's one New Covenant for Israel and one New Covenant for the church. Right?

Bob Wilkin (11:18)

Yeah.

Ken Yates (11:19)

1 Corinthians 11:26.

Bob Wilkin (11:21)

Yeah. In 1 Corinthians 11:25, it is the New Covenant.

Ken Yates (11:25)

The New Covenant.

Bob Wilkin (11:26)

Yeah. But of course, in that case, Paul's quoting from Jesus words on the night he was betrayed.

Ken Yates (11:33)

Right.

Bob Wilkin (11:33)

He's talking to the Jews there. Right. When the night he was. This is the blood of the New Covenant or the cup of the New Covenant in my blood.

Ken Yates (11:43)

Yeah. And look, I would encourage all of you, if I seem like I've stumbled around here, Kensmore definitive than I am. But look, I'm confident the New Covenant is not operating. The New Covenant is not operating.

Bob Wilkin (11:57)

And we agree.

Ken Yates (11:57)

Yeah, maybe there's a New Covenant, but I'm not so inclined at this point. I'm open. But what I would encourage all of you to do is study this out. But the other thing to keep in mind is that the expression doesn't occur much. And if this was some really key, crucial theological aspect, don't you think there'd be some passage that clearly laid this out?

Bob Wilkin (12:18)

Right.

Ken Yates (12:18)

We don't have that. So I would say, you know, that it's dangerous to go there because it often leads people into legalism and they somehow. Because the New Covenant, when it comes in the law of Moses, is going to be operative again.

Bob Wilkin (12:32)

And you helped me with this one time, Bob, when you said, when the New Covenant. We'll have the law written in our heart. We don't have the law of Moses written in our heart. So wait a second.

Ken Yates (12:42)

We don't even have God's laws. We don't have the New Testament commands written on our heart.

Bob Wilkin (12:46)

That's right. So we're not under that.

Ken Yates (12:47)

The only way we get them there is by hearing the word of God taught. Right.

Bob Wilkin (12:51)

And the Spirit transforming us.

Ken Yates (12:53)

Yes.

Bob Wilkin (12:53)

Well, that was a great question. We hope this helped and remember.

Ken Yates (12:57)

Keep Grace in Focus.

Narrator (13:02)

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Bob Wilkin (13:45)

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