Grace in Focus Podcast

Episode: Revelation 6:1-8 – The Four Horsemen and The First Four Seal Judgments

Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Bob Wilkin with Philippe Sterling and Sam Marr
Duration: ~13 minutes

Episode Overview

This episode continues Grace in Focus’s series on eschatology, focusing on the first four seal judgments described in Revelation 6:1-8—famously known as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Bob Wilkin, Philippe Sterling, and guest Sam Marr examine differing interpretations: Are these horsemen allegories, demonic entities, or do any represent Jesus Himself? The discussion also touches upon the connections between Revelation’s apocalyptic symbols, the tribulation timeline, and how views impact Free Grace Theology's approach to scripture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Four Horsemen

• Context: The Four Horsemen appear as the first four seal judgments at the onset of the tribulation period (00:50).
• Philippe Sterling: Reviews that the first four seals correspond to the famous "Four Horsemen": white, red, black, and pale/green.
• Sam Marr: Raises the broadly familiar cultural image: “Even if he's never read the Bible, he’d probably say, ‘oh yeah, it’s white horse, red horse, black horse, maybe green horse for pale horse, famine or something.’” (01:30)

2. Who is the Rider on the White Horse?

• Debate: Is the identity of the rider on the white horse (first seal) Jesus Christ, or “the man of sin” (often interpreted as the Antichrist)?

• Viewpoints Presented:

  • For Jesus:
    • Bob Wilkin: “The argument for it being Jesus is that he was given to go and conquer. ... In Revelation 19 he’s wearing many crowns.” (03:03)
    • Noted that Zane Hodges and John Claes support this view.
  • For Antichrist/Man of Sin:
    • Sam Marr: Raising logical issues with Jesus being the first rider, asks, “If Christ is the first horseman, how could 2, 3, and 4 be fallen angels or demons? It wouldn’t make sense.” (02:14)
    • Philippe Sterling acknowledges holding this position: “I think, hold that this rider on the white horse is actually the man of sin.” (03:35)
    • Bob: “That’s the way a lot of prophecy teachers have taken it over the years.” (03:43)

• Memorable Moment:

  • Sam Marr, comparing interpretive challenges and pointing out literary links:
    “John Claes points out in his commentary, this is the only other location where we see a person with a crown on a white horse [other than Jesus in Revelation 19].” (03:50)

3. Analysis of the Second, Third, and Fourth Seals

• Second Seal: Red Horse (War)

  • Rider takes peace from the earth; people kill each other; given a "great sword".
  • Bob explains: “He’s stirring up people to go to war...great bloodshed.” (04:50)

• Third Seal: Black Horse (Famine)

  • Rider has a pair of scales—symbol of famine/food rationing and extreme inflation.
  • Bob: “Many will die out of starvation, which usually follows wars.” (05:37)

• Fourth Seal: Pale Horse (Death/Hades)

  • Rider named “Death”; Hades follows, given authority to kill a fourth of the earth with sword, famine, plague, and wild beasts. (06:38)

4. Literal vs Symbolic: Death and Hades

• Who Are Death and Hades?

  • Sam: Notes unique emphasis—unlike other riders, this one is given a name (“Death”), which is personified. (09:08)
  • “It seems like Death is personified, and he’s killing a fourth of the earth, and then later he’s cast into the lake of fire…after this, there’s going to be no more death, no more Hades, no more famine and war.” (09:08)

• Comparison to Revelation 20:

  • Bob: “We have two different contexts. The context of the Great White Throne judgment and the four seals are two different contexts.” (10:36)
  • Bob clarifies distinctions in usage: “Death and Hades in chapter 20 seem to be referring to the grave and to the spirits that are in Hades, right?” (11:20)

• Philippe’s Imagery:

  • “It’s something like you’ve got this grim reaper that’s killing all these people and Hades is behind him, scooping them all up, taking all their souls into Hades...” (11:00)

5. Timing of Judgments in the Tribulation

• Timeline Clarification:
  • Philippe: “With the Earth's population approximately 8 billion now, that would be 2 billion people dying at the first three and a half years.” (07:26)
  • Bob: Explains sequence—trumpet judgments usually come later in the first half and into the second half; bowl judgments at the end. (07:52)

6. Unresolved Interpretive Questions

• Summary of Interpretive Tension:
  • Philippe: “Basically what we’ve done is we’ve left this very muddy. You need to think about this and study this. I’m still of the opinion that this is the Lord Jesus Christ, that these are unfallen angels who are with him. Sam makes a good point that only the fourth one were given name and a description of the person.” (11:51)
  • Emphasizes need for individual study and discernment.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sam Marr [01:30]:
  “Most people are familiar with that concept [the Four Horsemen]. And the majority of Americans, Christian or not, have probably never heard the idea that the white horse is Jesus...if Christ is the first horseman, how could 2, 3, and 4 be fallen angels or demons? It wouldn’t make sense.”

• Bob Wilkin [03:03]:
  “The argument for it being Jesus is that he was given to go and conquer...in Revelation 19 he’s wearing many crowns.”

• Sam Marr [09:08]:
  “If you’re just having a casual reading, it seems like Death and Hades are being personified here...None of the other horsemen are personified, by the way. It’s only this horseman that’s given a name.”

• Philippe Sterling [11:00]:
  “The imagery is something like you’ve got this grim reaper that’s killing all these people and Hades is behind him, scooping them all up, taking all their souls into Hades...”

• Philippe Sterling [11:51]:
  “Basically what we’ve done is we’ve left this very muddy. You need to think about this and study this.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction of Guests and Topic: 00:50
• Identity of White Horse Rider Debate Begins: 01:13 – 03:43
• Reading/Discussion of the Four Horsemen: 02:49 – 06:58
• Analysis of Death and Hades (Fourth Horseman): 06:38 – 11:00
• Parallels with Revelation 20; Symbolic Meanings: 08:12 – 10:53
• Timing of Judgments in the Tribulation: 07:26 – 08:12
• Summary and Call for Personal Study: 11:51 – 12:39

Tone and Takeaways

The episode is thoughtful, conversational, and invites listeners to wrestle with challenging prophetic texts. The co-hosts model respectful dialogue, openly acknowledging disagreements and ambiguities. Rather than pushing a single interpretation, they encourage prayerful, personal study—reflecting the “grace in focus” ethos.

Listeners interested in further details on judgments beyond the fourth seal are encouraged to tune in to the next episode.